MJ's reign as GOAT has officially withstood Lebron

[3ball]

.
Thru 13 seasons, Lebron is only 3/7 compared to MJ's 6/6

MJ destroys Lebron just like everyone else in the post-1960's modern era

[TommyGriffin]

LeBron colluded and played in an era that was easier for perimeter players as well. MJ is the GOAT.

[ShawkFactory]

Cool story bro

[Dray n Klay]

LeBron was only a teenager his first 2-3 seasons, meanwhile Jordan had the advantage of 3 years of college experience before he was drafted.




So you can't look at seasons played when comparing them













Through age 31, LeBron has had the better career

[Nilocon165]

And now because of this thread, your reign as the biggest fakkit on this board has officialy withstood everyone else

[BigKAT]

Isn't this kind of thread more appropriate in a year that Lebron lost in the finals? rather then after his most impressive victory..?

Not to say that MJ isn't the Goat as things are now,
But your timing is rather weird.

[3ball]

Through age 31, LeBron has had the better career



THRU 31 YEARS OLD.. (playoff stats are linked to source data)




PLAYOFFS PER GAME



Jordan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game
):. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




PLAYOFFS PER 100 POSSESSIONS



Jordan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss
):I 43.9 pts..N 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




FINALS PER GAME:



Jordan Finals:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron Finals:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



Jordan's first 3 rings required 25-33% more scoring with better efficiency than Lebron's 3 rings, while still getting equal or greater assists... :eek:

[3ball]

Isn't this kind of thread more appropriate in a year that Lebron lost in the finals? rather then after his most impressive victory..?


Jordan's 36/7/8 in 91-93' Finals is superior to Lebron's 30/11/9 because he scored 15 ppg more than his 2nd option, compared to 2 ppg for Lebron - so Jordan faced greater defensive attention.

Furthermore, Jordan had 1.5 fewer turnovers, which offsets his 1 apg disadvangtage.. So Lebron's only advantage is 4 defensive rebounds, which doesn't compare to Jordan's 6 ppg and efficiency advantage.. Lebron would be a completely different player if he averaged 6 more ppg with better efficiency.

Finally, Lebron needed a 7th game because he only averaged 24 ppg and 6 TO's thru 4 games - then he averaged 36 ppg in the last 3 games to win the series by one possession.. Obviously, if he'd averaged 36 ppg for the ENTIRE series like Jordan did in 91-93' Finals, he wouldn't need a 7th game and would've had a bigger margin of victory.





Not to say that MJ isn't the Goat as things are now,
But your timing is rather weird.


Lebron's time has run out - thru 13 seasons, he has HALF the rings and fmvp's

Longevity can never match GREATNESS #6/6

[BigKAT]

Jordan's 36/7/8 in 91-93' Finals is superior to Lebron's 30/11/9 because he scored 15 ppg more than his 2nd option, compared to 2 ppg for Lebron - so Jordan faced greater defensive attention.

Furthermore, Lebron's 1 assist advantage is erased by his 1.5 greater turnovers, so his only advantage is 4 defensive rebounds, which doesn't compare to Jordan's 6 ppg and efficiency advantage.. Lebron would be a completely different player if he averaged 6 more ppg with better efficiency.

Furthermore, Lebron needed a 7th game because he only averaged 24 ppg and 6 TO's thru 4 games - then he averaged 36 ppg in the last 3 games to win the series by one possession.. Obviously, if he'd averaged 36 ppg for the ENTIRE series like Jordan did in 91-93' Finals, he wouldn't need a 7th game and would've had a bigger margin of victory.



Longevity can never match GREATNESS #6/6

I stand by my comment,
MJ is the GOAT.
But all these threads after Lebron did something so amazing as to win against a 73 win team just feel kinda.. insecure to me, y'know?

I'd get why Kobe Fans would do that.
But MJ Fans shouldn't really be sweating that much.

[Dray n Klay]

3ball, who faced tougher Finals defenses and better competition in the Finals, Jordan or LeBron?

[3ball]

I stand by my comment,
MJ is the GOAT.
But all these threads after Lebron did something so amazing as to win against a 73 win team just feel kinda.. insecure to me, y'know?

I'd get why Kobe Fans would do that.
But MJ Fans shouldn't really be sweating that much.


Agreed, because Lebron's time has run out - thru 13 seasons, he has HALF the rings and fmvp's as the goat

So it's too late, as the thread title states.. Greatness (6/6) can never be eclipsed by sheer longevity, so lebron fans are dreaming

[warriorfan]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view8/20140130/4966305/window-closing-o.gif

[Smoke117]

1-9

[Smoke117]

Agreed, because Lebron's time has run out - thru 13 seasons, he has HALF the rings and fmvp's as the goat

So it's too late, as the thread title states.. Greatness (6/6) can never be eclipsed by sheer longevity, so lebron fans are dreaming

You said that at the end of last season too you dumb ****.

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

3ball, who faced better competition in the Finals, Jordan or LeBron?


You think the Spurs are "good competition".. They aren't - they benefited from not facing the Bulls.

You forget that the Spurs had Duncan, Robinson, and Popovich in 1998 and won 56 games - but they got destroyed in WCSF by the Jazz, who then were crushed by 35-year old Jordan in the Finals.. So if Jordan played in the 2000's, the Spurs would be doormats for Jordan's Bulls just like the Jazz and everyone else.

Look at Jordan in his first meeting with Duncan/Popovich/Robinson in 1998 - he MADE (https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/rP-QUs.gif) the walk-off 3-pointer from the exact same spot of Lebron's infamous miss - then MJ dominated the overtime, including 2 dunks (https://media.giphy.com/media/26FPq7nUqs2V8LyNO/giphy.gif) over Duncan.. So again - the Spurs would be doormats for Jordan just like everyone else.

As for the Warriors - Iggy is too slow to guard Jordan.. Also, Iggy can't guard Jordan unless Klay guards Pippen or sits on the bench.. So the Warriors have all kinds of matchup issues - their small-ball lineups are inferior to the Bulls, who were the ORIGINAL small-ball team and possessed taller/more versatile lineups.





3ball, who faced better defenses, Jordan or LeBron?


2005-2016 has the most 20 ppg scorers at the PG, SG and SF positions of any era.

For example, there were 11 players at the PG, SG, or SF positions with 20 ppg averages in 1996, compared to 22 in 2015.

The lower number of perimeter scorers in previous eras was due to the legal hand-checking and lack of 3-point shooting/spacing before the 2005 rule changes, which the league stated were designed to increase penetration (ban hand-checking), thus freeing up shooters (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) (spacing).





3ball, who faced better competition?


Lebron's Finals appearances were achieved by beating half (http://s12.postimg.org/fiwmzsvn1/CIu6g_DI.jpg) the 50-win teams that MJ did, despite playing more games (199 to 179).

So Lebron hasn't played anywhere near the competition as Jordan - it's common knowledge that the 2000's East was the weakest of all-time, while the 80's and 90's East is the toughest of all time.

Think about it - Lebron made the 2007 Finals by averaging a mere 25 ppg on 41% in ECSF, and 26 ppg on 45% in ECF.. These would be among the worst stats of MJ's career and wouldn't get him out of the 1st Round, let alone make the Finals.

Also, we know Jordan had a weaker supporting cast because his first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369) 25-33% more scoring and greater APG.. You have no more arguments

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Comparing them only by TEAM achievements, like you did in your OP, is incredibly stupid.

Jordan is the better player although LeBron @ his best (this past finals) is definitely in that tier, and on an IMPACT scale, is able to at least make it somewhat close.

[BedroomBully]

3ball, who faced tougher Finals defenses and better competition in the Finals, Jordan or LeBron?
Let me get that for you brody.....
http://thebiglead.com/2015/06/02/lebron-michael-jordan-nba-finals-supporting-cast/

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah, but the fact you only make threads about LeBron and nobody else shows how scared you are of him. You simply don't make the number of threads you make about a player without feeling threatened by them. You can say any bullshit excuse you want, but if you truly felt LeBron had no argument with Jordan, you wouldn't feel the need to compare them all the time, so he clearly makes you feel insecure :lol

[3ball]

Let me get that for you brody.....
http://thebiglead.com/2015/06/02/lebron-michael-jordan-nba-finals-supporting-cast/


The 538 rankings of supporting casts isn't viable because it doesn't consider the biggest factor affecting a supporting cast's production: teamwork.. The list merely looks at statistical production and equates that with "talent", even though the biggest factor affecting supporting cast production is teamwork.

Since the 538 list doesn't consider the most important factor affecting supporting cast production (teamwork), it's a garbage list and you shouldn't pay attention to it....

However, despite it's fatal flaws, the list still shows that Jordan won with weaker supporting casts (91', 93') than Lebron ever won with (12', 13', 16').. Jordan's weaker supporting casts are why his first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369) 30% more scoring and greater assists than Lebron's 3 rings.
.

[Pushxx]

Isn't this kind of thread more appropriate in a year that Lebron lost in the finals? rather then after his most impressive victory..?

Not to say that MJ isn't the Goat as things are now,
But your timing is rather weird.

If you think 3ball has any sense of timing than you give him too much credit.

[Round Mound]

Without Jordan 55 Wins. Two Less Wins Than The Year Before. :confusedshrug:

Yeah Jordan Had A Mediocre Team Around Him :rolleyes:

[BedroomBully]

Without Jordan 55 Wins. Two Less Wins Than The Year Before. :confusedshrug:

Yeah Jordan Had A Mediocre Team Around Him :rolleyes:
One bad call away from making the ECF.

[Round Mound]

One bad call away from making the ECF.

And Pippen Finished 4th In PER for that Season.

MJ Played With A Top 10 NBA Player from 90-98.

[Poetry]

MJ Played With A Top 10 NBA Player from 90-98.

Pip wasn't top 10 all of those years :no:

[BedroomBully]

Pip wasn't top 10 all of those years :no:
One of the 50 greatest of all time!

[Round Mound]

Pip wasn't top 10 all of those years :no:

Yes he was. He was top 4 when MJ left and 7 for half the next season

MJ played with a Top 10 Player from 90 to 98. Period!

[Poetry]

And Pippen Finished 4th In PER for that Season.


Yes he was. He was top 4 when MJ left and 7 for half the next season

MJ played with a Top 10 Player from 90 to 98. Period!

If you're going by PER, those were the only two years Pippen was ever in the top 10 in PER.

[Poetry]

If you want an example of someone who played with a top 10 player (based on PER) for a long stretch, look at Malone. Malone was in the top 10 in PER thirteen times. Stockton was top 10 in PER ten times.

[red1]

.
Thru 13 seasons, Lebron is only 3/7 compared to MJ's 6/6

MJ destroys Lebron just like everyone else in the post-1960's modern era
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/53/d5/c7/53d5c7f390927965064c1e6e5e5f2033.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/13/e3/4f/13e34fb55deeff3eb61f17ae393490a5.jpg

[red1]

The 538 rankings of supporting casts isn't viable because it doesn't consider the biggest factor affecting a supporting cast's production: teamwork.. The list merely looks at statistical production and equates that with "talent", even though the biggest factor affecting supporting cast production is teamwork.

Since the 538 list doesn't consider the most important factor affecting supporting cast production (teamwork), it's a garbage list and you shouldn't pay attention to it....

However, despite it's fatal flaws, the list still shows that Jordan won with weaker supporting casts (91', 93') than Lebron ever won with (12', 13', 16').. Jordan's weaker supporting casts are why his first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369) 30% more scoring and greater assists than Lebron's 3 rings.
.
https://wallpaperscraft.com/image/child_baby_face_yawning_black_white_39464_1920x108 0.jpg

[Round Mound]

If you're going by PER, those were the only two years Pippen was ever in the top 10 in PER.

[B]Reason to why Pippen was very good without Jordan and no the opposite. Pippen

[Mr Feeny]

Let's assume - hypothetically - that Lebron somehow does the miraculous 2 years running and pulls of an even BIGGER upset than this year's (which was against the winningest team in nba history).

Doesnt that put him in the discussion?

At some point, we have to apply context. Not all titles are equal. If Lebron wins the 2017 title playing the same all-timr-great play he did this year, he'd be more than in the discussion in my opinion.

He'd have 4 titles as lead dog - 2nd only to Jordan if we're not including Russell. And among the 4 would be the two highest weighted title wins of all time.

I wouldn't close the door.

[KnicksWolves]

To me, LeBron officially lost his shot at overtaking Jordan when the 2011 Finals concluded. As a fan of LeBron, the way he chose to approach that Finals was an absolute head-scratcher.

[LeBird]

This thread is basically 3ball's way of saying "LeBron is the GOAT, I'm scared I have to change my life now".

[Duncan21formvp]

This thread is basically 3ball's way of saying "LeBron is the GOAT, I'm scared I have to change my life now".
Not when you have 2 bronze medals and lost with HCA 3 years. If Lebron was so good how, is it he has been down 3-2 every year of his career even with HCA?

[Paul George 24]

LeBron was only a teenager his first 2-3 seasons, meanwhile Jordan had the advantage of 3 years of college experience before he was drafted.




So you can't look at seasons played when comparing them











Through age 31, LeBron has had the better career 12 YEARS ONLY 3 RINGS,NUFF SAID

[Paul George 24]

3ball, who faced tougher Finals defenses and better competition in the Finals, Jordan or LeBron?
JORDAN OF COZ

[Paul George 24]

1-9
PIPPEN IS JUST A ROLE PLAYER WITHOUT JORDAN

[Paul George 24]

Without Jordan 55 Wins. Two Less Wins Than The Year Before. :confusedshrug:

Yeah Jordan Had A Mediocre Team Around Him :rolleyes:
IN 1995,PIPPEN LEAD HIS TEAM TO 35WINS,31 LOSES,NUFF SAID

[Paul George 24]

One of the 50 greatest of all time!
IT'S BECAUSE JORDAN MADE HIM

[Round Mound]

IN 1995,PIPPEN LEAD HIS TEAM TO 35WINS,31 LOSES,NUFF SAID

Check Out Jordans Record Before Pippen, Grant and Phil Jackson.

NUFF F-SAID! :confusedshrug:

[Paul George 24]

Check Out Jordans Record Before Pippen, Grant and Phil Jackson.

NUFF F-SAID! :confusedshrug:
PHIL IS AN OVERRATED COACH,HE CAN'T WIN WITHOUT THE BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAUGE( JORDAN,SHAQ,KOBE )
PIPPEN IS A ROLE PLAYER IN HIS ROOKIE SEASON
1989 EAST CONF.PIPPEN CHOKED COST THE BULLS LOST AGAINST BAD BOY
1994 PIPPEN WITH 2 ALL STARS GRANT AND BJ AND CHOKE GAINST KNICKS IN GAME 7
AND 1998,WITHOUT PIPPEN,WITHOUT ANY STAR PALYER,JORDAN,RODMAN LED HIS TEAM TO 24WINS,11 LOSE:banana:

ANY EXCUSE

[Paul George 24]

PIPPEN'S CAREER HIGH IN PLAYOFFS EVEN LOWER THAN KAWHI'S :lol

[AirBonner]

LeBron's career isn't over.

[SexSymbol]

well, so far whitstood isn't a correct word here, Jordan's career is yet to be challenged in any way by bron's

[Paul George 24]

LeBron's career isn't over.
HE IS DONE SINCE HE LOST 4 NBA FINALS COMPARE TO JORDAN'S'S UNDEFEAT,PLUS JORDAN NEVER GIVEUP HIS TEAM,UNLIKE LECHOKE DID IT TWICE :lol

[AirBonner]

HE IS DONE SINCE HE LOST 4 NBA FINALS COMPARE TO JORDAN'S'S UNDEFEAT,PLUS JORDAN NEVER GIVEUP HIS TEAM,UNLIKE LECHOKE DID IT TWICE :lol
Jordan missed more finals than lebron. That is far worse than losing IN the finals. Caps lock Thursday bitch.

[bond10]

Jordan missed more finals than lebron. That is far worse than losing IN the finals. Caps lock Thursday bitch.


Yeah, losing to those 80s Celtics and Piston teams is comparable to winning vs the mighty Raptors and Pacers of today. :roll:

[LostCause]

Jordan missed more finals than lebron. That is far worse than losing IN the finals. Caps lock Thursday bitch.

Across their careers, Lebron has a Championship winning % of 23%. Jordan nearly doubles that at 40%, and that's including the Wizards years. If you remove those he's at 46%. I guarantee Lebron would rather have Jordans numbers here than the ones you just cited. Everyone would, unless theirs are superior to Jordans. I also guarantee he'd take losing in the 1st round 3x if it meant he went on to win a championship over 45% of his time in the NBA over doing it 23% of the time

[Mr Feeny]

Across their careers, Lebron has a Championship winning % of 23%. Jordan nearly doubles that at 40%, and that's including the Wizards years. If you remove those he's at 46%. I guarantee Lebron would rather have Jordans numbers here than the ones you just cited. Everyone would, unless theirs are superior to Jordans. I also guarantee he'd take losing in the 1st round 3x if it meant he went on to win a championship over 45% of his time in the NBA over doing it 23% of the time

It's not fair to penalize Lebron for not winning in 2014-2015, though. We can only judge players on their performances. You cannot win a title by yourself. The 2014 heat were basically a 1 man team with Wade as hobbled as he was and Bosh as sub-par as he was.

Last year, Lebron averaged 36, 13, 9 and won 2 games against the best team in basketball with Mathew Dellavedova as his second best player. We surely must take all this into account when judging a player.

[LAZERUSS]

It's not fair to penalize Lebron for not winning in 2014-2015, though. We can only judge players on their performances. You cannot win a title by yourself. The 2014 heat were basically a 1 man team with Wade as hobbled as he was and Bosh as sub-par as he was.

Last year, Lebron averaged 36, 13, 9 and won 2 games against the best team in basketball with Mathew Dellavedova as his second best player. We surely must take all this into account when judging a player.

Agreed 100%.

So, given that Chamberlain dominated the GOAT Dynasty in the playoffs/Finals in '60, '62, '64, '65, and '66...and was clearly the best player on the planet in those years...

he gets full credit.

Then, in '68, he took an injury-decimated roster, all while badly injured himself, to a game seven, four point loss...he gets credit here, as well.

That's SIX seasons, in addition to being, by far, the most dominant player in the league in his '67 title run..that's SEVEN.

Add in his '72 run, in which even the Milwaukee Press claimed that he outplayed a peak KAJ, and Time Magazine went so far as to claim that he DECISIVELY OUTPLAYED Kareem, en route to wiping out the Knicks and their FIVE HOFers in the Finals (and winning the FMVP)...

wow...that's EIGHT.

Then, given that none other than John Wooden claimed that had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters, and coaches, and it would have been WILT holding all those rings...
well that's 10 rings in the decade of the 60's, and then adding in his '72 dominance... that's 11!

GOAT!

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[3ball]

The 2014 heat were basically a 1 man team with Wade as hobbled as he was and Bosh as sub-par as he was.


Do you realize that Pippen was injured for the first 35 games of the 1998 season?... Yet the Bulls were 24-11 and in first place.

Furthermore Rodman wasn't even a starter in the playoffs and he only averaged 4/8 in the Finals, while Pippen got hurt and disappeared in the Finals as well.

Yet the Bulls still won in 1998, despite these issues being MORE SIGNIFICANT than the Heat's issues in 2014.. And how did the Bulls win despite injuries to Pippen and Rodman?... They Bulls had great TEAMWORK, which helped offset the loss of talent..

Otoh, Lebron's teams win based on excessive talent from team-hopping, not teamwork developed from him STAYING - so when someone like Wade gets hurt, the team is f.ucked.

Lebron's game simply doesn't foster good teamwork.. Heck - it's statistical fact that his style lowers the APG of teammates (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (turns them into play-finishers) - if that doesn't foster inferior teamwork, then I don't know what does!!!!!!!!





Last year, Lebron averaged 36, 13, 9 and won 2 games against the best team in basketball with Mathew Dellavedova as his second best player.


Tristan Thompson averaged 10/13, which is better than Rodman's 4/8 in 1998 Finals... Mosgov's 14/10 on 55% is better than Pippen's 15 ppg on 41%.

Kerr, Harper and Tucker averaged 3-5 ppg on 35%, which is comparable to JR Smith, Shumpert, and Delly's 4-7 ppg on 30%.

So Lebron had more help, but he lost because he allowed his defensive assignment to double his scoring average and only shot 39% against single coverage (he didn't command a double).. Otoh, Jordan locked his man down and never hurt his team by being single-covered, let alone shoot 39% against single-coverage.