Lebron's early supporting casts > MJ's early casts (unrefuted proof inside)

[3ball]

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Lebron's 2009 production was equal to Jordan's 1989 production, but Lebron's team won 19 more games.

The only way Lebron's inferior production can yield 19 more wins is due to a better supporting cast, and probably inferior competition as well.

[BigKAT]

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Lebron's 2009 production was equal to Jordan's 1989 production, but Lebron's team won 19 more games.

The only way Lebron's inferior production can yield 19 more wins is due to a better supporting cast, and probably inferior competition as well.

Better Defense?
Better Coach?
Better Chemistry?

Come on man, don't dumb down Basketball to just PPG/FG%.
If you've seen Basketball you know it's anything from how well you set your screens, to how you trash talk the right person or cooardinate your teammates on D that can make a difference.

[BedroomBully]

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Lebron's 2009 production was equal to Jordan's 1989 production, but Lebron's team won 19 more games.

The only way Lebron's inferior production can yield 19 more wins is due to a better supporting cast, and probably inferior competition as well.
http://thebiglead.com/2015/06/02/lebron-michael-jordan-nba-finals-supporting-cast/

[inclinerator]

lebron lebronlebronlebronlebron lebronlebronlebronlebron lebronlebronlebron

jordanjordanjordanjordanjordanjordanjordanjordanjo rdanjordanjordanjordanjordanjordanjordan

[3ball]

Better Coach?


Jordan had Doug Collins in 1989, who was the same as Mike Brown.

Also, Phil Jackson was a NOBODY when he took over in 1990 - he was a first-time NBA coach that no one had ever heard of, just like Mike Brown.. Jordan welcomed Phil to his kingdom and put him on the map.





Better Defense?
Better Chemistry?


Jordan's defense and brand of basketball proved to be superior since it was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs, where it thrived:

Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in ECF, whereas Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball and defense exposed by Dwight Howard's underdog Magic.

[BigKAT]

Jordan had Doug Collins in 1989, who was the same as Mike Brown.

Also, Phil Jackson was a NOBODY when he took over in 1990 - he was a first-time NBA coach that no one had ever heard of, just like Mike Brown.. Jordan welcomed Phil to his kingdom and put him on the map.



Jordan's defense and brand of basketball proved to be superior since it was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs, where it thrived:

Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in ECF, whereas Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball and defense exposed by Dwight Howard's underdog Magic.


Enlighten me about that part.
Jordan was a beast one on one defender, but I dont' think he was superior to Lebron. If anything he had Pippen to help him when if we think about it, the best defender I can think of that was with Lebron was past-his-prime Dwade?

And yeah, Jordan's bulls were good, no argument here.

[3ball]

http://thebiglead.com/2015/06/02/lebron-michael-jordan-nba-finals-supporting-cast/


That article has zero evidence, whereas the evidence presented in the OP is clear: Lebron's 2009 production was equal to Jordan's 1989 production, but Lebron's team won 19 more games.. The only way Lebron's inferior production can yield 19 more wins is due to a better supporting cast, and probably inferior competition as well.

We know that Lebron's win total didn't benefit from better defense or brand of basketball, since Jordan's defense and brand of basketball was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs:

Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in ECF, whereas Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball and defense exposed by Dwight Howard's underdog Magic.

Also, Jordan DID MORE with his weaker cast in 1989 - the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So that was a lottery roster without Jordan in 1989, that Jordan led to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.

[ShawkFactory]

Jordan had Doug Collins in 1989, who was the same as Mike Brown.

Also, Phil Jackson was a NOBODY when he took over in 1990 - he was a first-time NBA coach that no one had ever heard of, just like Mike Brown.. Jordan welcomed Phil to his kingdom and put him on the map.



Jordan's defense and brand of basketball proved to be superior since it was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs, where it thrived:

Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in ECF, whereas Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball and defense exposed by Dwight Howard's underdog Magic.
He didn't play that brand of basketball in 1989. He was still seen as a ball hog who's style wasn't conducive to winning.

[3ball]

Enlighten me about that part.
Jordan was a beast one on one defender, but I dont' think he was superior to Lebron.


Jordan is the greatest defender EVER at his position, whereas Lebron is not.

Jordan is the only player in history that is the greatest offensive and defensive player at his position.. Also, among all perimeter players in history, only Jordan ranks in the top 5 on both offense and defense.

Finally, Jordan averaged 31/7/11 on 56% while holding (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12376705&postcount=45) Magic to 19 ppg on 43%.. He also averaged 36 ppg on 53% while holding Drexler to 25 ppg on 42%.

So Jordan's defense didn't allow all-time greats get the Finals MVP, let alone role players like Lebron did twice.

[SouBeachTalents]

OP has absolutely no life

[BigKAT]

Jordan is the greatest defender EVER at his position, whereas Lebron is not.

Jordan is the only player in history who is the greatest offensive and defensive player at his position.. Among all perimeter players in history, only Jordan ranks in the top 5 on both offense and defense.

Also, Jordan averaged 31/7/11 on 56% while holding (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12376705&postcount=45) Magic to 19 ppg on 43%.. He also averaged 36 ppg on 53% while holding Drexler to 25 ppg on 42%.

So Jordan's defense didn't allow all-time greats get the Finals MVP, let alone role players like Lebron did twice.

Everything you wrote seem credible and fine, except that last remark.
Lebron didn't win FMVP over Igudoala because his team lost. He honestly deserved it more then him on 15'.

And in regards to 14', It kinda felt like Kawhi got it because he guarded Lebron. But bron had 28 ppg on 56%

So the whole notion that Leonard kept him in check is just stupid imo.
Lebron didn't win FMVP on 14' and 15' because he lost the series, not because any of the other players on the court in any way outperformed him.

Honestly, Jordan's Final Stats are awesome and shit, but I don't see him winning FMVP on a losing team. So that argument doesn't hold.

But then again, thanks for the info on the defense. I didn't realize Magic was mostly guarded by MJ.

[3ball]

He didn't play that brand of basketball in 1989.


We know that 1989 Jordan had a superior brand of basketball than 2009 Lebron, because Jordan's brand was more successful and thrived in the higher-competition playoffs, while Lebron's brand was exposed:

Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in ECF, whereas Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball exposed by Dwight Howard's underdog Magic.

Also, Jordan had greater impact with his weaker cast in 1989 - the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So that was a lottery roster without Jordan in 1989, that Jordan led to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.

[pauk]

That article has zero evidence, whereas the evidence presented in the OP is clear: Lebron's 2009 production was equal to Jordan's 1989 production, but Lebron's team won 19 more games.. The only way Lebron's inferior production can yield 19 more wins is due to a better supporting cast, and probably inferior competition as well.

We know that Lebron's win total didn't benefit from better defense or brand of basketball, since Jordan's defense and brand of basketball was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs:

Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in ECF, whereas Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball and defense exposed by Dwight Howard's underdog Magic.

Also, Jordan DID MORE with his weaker cast in 1989 - the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So that was a lottery roster without Jordan in 1989, that Jordan led to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.

Did you read the article or just the headline and hence skimmed as it doesnt suit the agenda?

Jordan is still the GOAT, calm the **** down, why so insecure? Why do you lay down the law on Jordan being the GOAT at everything... like everything has to be in favor of him.... what he had to work with around him was the worst ever, the competition was the best ever, best 2pt shooting, freethrows, 3pt shooting, post up, passing, dribbling, skills, iq, leadership, clutch, stength, speed, quickness, first step, dunking, vertical, rebounding, interior defense, perimeter defense..... even though very simple blatant data shows otherwise... being the GOAT doesnt mean being the GOAT at every single facet....

[BedroomBully]

That article has zero evidence, whereas the evidence presented in the OP is clear: Lebron's 2009 production was equal to Jordan's 1989 production, but Lebron's team won 19 more games.. The only way Lebron's inferior production can yield 19 more wins is due to a better supporting cast, and probably inferior competition as well.

We know that Lebron's win total didn't benefit from better defense or brand of basketball, since Jordan's defense and brand of basketball was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs:

Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in ECF, whereas Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball and defense exposed by Dwight Howard's underdog Magic.

Also, Jordan DID MORE with his weaker cast in 1989 - the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So that was a lottery roster without Jordan in 1989, that Jordan led to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.
Ill take the researched evidence of a professional sports writer, who if I may add, is an MJ fan, over yours. Everything you post and research is absolutely tailored to fit your agenda. You have been called on it plenty of times. So ill go with this article before I believe anything you say.

[BedroomBully]

Did you read the article or just the headline and hence skimmed as it doesnt suit the agenda?

Jordan is still the GOAT, calm the **** down, why so insecure? Why do you lay down the law on Jordan being the GOAT at everything... like everything has to be in favor of him.... what he had to work with around him was the worst ever, the competition was the best ever, best 2pt shooting, freethrows, 3pt shooting, post up, passing, dribbling, skills, iq, leadership, clutch, stength, speed, quickness, first step, dunking, vertical, rebounding, interior defense, perimeter defense..... even though very simple blatant proof shows otherwise...
Thank you!

[3ball]

Lebron didn't win FMVP on 14' and 15' because he lost the series, not because any of the other players on the court in any way outperformed him.


You're missing the point - we're talking about who is the better defender - Lebron let his man play FAR ABOVE THEIR NORMAL AVERAGE, whereas Jordan never did

Iggy doubled his scoring average and increased his efficiency a ton, while Kawhi averaged 24 ppg on 70% in the last 3 games - this was also double his normal averages.

So while Lebron's defense allowed role players to double their averages, Jordan held down the averages of all-time greats.

Lebron has never won dpoy, even in today's small ball league, whereas Jordan won dpoy in the golden age of big men and towering shot blockers - he was a better defender than Lebron, which is why he holds down all-time greats and Lebron allows role players to run roughshod.

[ShawkFactory]

We know that 1989 Jordan had a superior brand of basketball than 2009 Lebron, because Jordan's brand was more successful and thrived in the higher-competition playoffs, while Lebron's brand was exposed:
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:biggums:

[3ball]

Did you read the article or just the headline and hence skimmed as it doesnt suit the agenda?


Can Paxson or Kerr do this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4u_Cn3N1K0


The reality is that Paxson and Kerr had far less talent than Chalmers, JR Smith or Ray Allen, but the Bulls had far greater TEAMWORK, which the 538 list doesn't consider.

The 538 list simply looks at role player production and equates that with talent, when having great teamwork and being a great TEAM helps role player production more than anything - that's how it's possible for the less-talented Paxson and Kerr to play better than Chalmers or JR Smith or Ray Allen.

So the 538 list is garbage and you shouldn't pay attention to it, even though it shows that Jordan won with weaker supporting casts (91', 93') than Lebron ever won with (12', 13', 16').





Did you read the article or just the headline and hence skimmed as it doesnt suit the agenda?


We know for a FACT that Jordan's supporting cast was far worse, since his first 3 rings required 25-33% more scoring than Lebron's 3 rings, with equal or greater assists:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369
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[MiseryCityTexas]

Pippen and Grant alone in 89 were both better than the majority of Lebron's supporting cast in 2009.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Lebron took Mo Williams as a second option all the way to the western conference finals.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Then again, the eastern conference was absolute garbage in 2009 outside of Dwight Howard Magic and Boston Big Three. The eastern conference was still great in 89.

[BedroomBully]

Can Paxson or Kerr do this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4u_Cn3N1K0


The reality is that Paxson and Kerr had far less talent than Chalmers, JR Smith or Ray Allen, but the Bulls had far greater TEAMWORK, which the 538 list doesn't consider.

The 538 list simply looks at role player production and equates that with talent, when having great teamwork and being a great TEAM helps role player production more than anything - that's how it's possible for the less-talented Paxson and Kerr to play better than Chalmers or JR Smith or Ray Allen.

So the 538 list is garbage and you shouldn't pay attention to it, even though it shows that Jordan won with weaker supporting casts (91', 93') than Lebron ever won with (12', 13', 16').



Btw, we know for a FACT that Jordan's supporting cast was far worse, since his first 3 rings required 25-33% more scoring than Lebron's 3 rings, with equal or greater assists.
WTF are you talking about??? Is that your rebuttal for the article? Really? Way to deflect facts. You answer with comparing Paxson/Kerr to Chalmers and JR? Oh and by the way, Kerr/Kukoc>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Chalmers/JR

[3ball]

Lebron took Mo Williams as a second option all the way to the western conference finals.


In 1989, Pippen was a 2nd year player who averaged 14/6 - he was nowhere NEAR a top 3 player at his position in the conference.

Otoh - in 2009, Mo Williams was a top 3 player at his position in the conference (all-star).

So Jordan took the Bulls to the ECF with weaker talent relative to his competition than Lebron.

[greymatter]

Lebron joined a 17W team and they won 35 his rookie year.
Jordan turned a 27W team into a 38W team his rookie year.

Lebron has only had 1 losing season his entire career. Jordan has had 5 losing seasons...3 if you wish to be generous and not count his Wizard days.

OP is and forever shall be a pathetic joke.

[MiseryCityTexas]

^^^ Such an ignorant comment.

In 1989, Pippen was a 2nd year player who averaged 14/6.. He was nowhere NEAR a top 3 player at his position.

Otoh, Mo Williams was a top 3 player at his position (all-star) in 2009.

So Jordan took the Bulls to the ECF with weaker talent relative to his competition than Lebron.

Pippen in 89 is still better than Mo Williams in 2009. You're just a Jordan nut hugger that just want to downplay his teammates while bigging up his game.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Then Jordan had Craig Hodges coming off the bench, who is a player that is pretty much similar to Mo Williams. (three point shooter).

[3ball]

Pippen in 89 is still better than Mo Williams in 2009. You're just a Jordan nut hugger that just want to downplay his teammates while bigging up his game.


But Shaq > Pippen, so Lebron should've won in 2010 when he had Shaq.. :rolleyes:

See how ignorant your statement is?

Pippen was nothing in 1989, whereas Mo Williams was an all-star and therefore a top 3 player at his position in the conference.

[BedroomBully]

In 1989, Pippen was a 2nd year player who averaged 14/6 - he was nowhere NEAR a top 3 player at his position.

Otoh, Mo Williams was a top 3 player at his position (all-star) in 2009.

So Jordan took the Bulls to the ECF with weaker talent relative to his competition than Lebron.

Top 3 point guard in 2009???? Are you serious?http://bleacherreport.com/articles/223169-top-10-nba-point-guards-for-the-2009-10-season/page/11
And the only reason why he made that All-Star team is because Bosh got injured and Lebron and Cavs org were bitching about Mo originally getting snubbed.

[3ball]

WTF are you talking about??? Is that your rebuttal for the article? Really? Way to deflect facts.


Accept the facts.. The 538 list is garbage because it doesn't consider teamwork.. The list simply looks at role player production and equates that with "talent", even though teamwork is the biggest factor affecting supporting cast production.

Since the 538 list doesn't consider teamwork, it's garbage and you shouldn't pay attention to it.... however, the list still shows that Jordan won with weaker supporting casts (91', 93') than Lebron ever won with (12', 13', 16')..

Indeed, even the flawed 538 list shows that Jordan won with less, which explains why his first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369) 30% more scoring and greater assists than Lebron's 3 rings.






You answer with comparing Paxson/Kerr to Chalmers and JR? Oh and by the way, Kerr/Kukoc>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Chalmers/JR


Can Paxson or Kerr do this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4u_Cn3N1K0


The reality is that Paxson and Kerr had far less talent than Chalmers, JR Smith or Ray Allen, but the Bulls had far greater TEAMWORK.. Unfortunately, the 538 list doesn't consider teamwork, so the list is invalid, since teamwork is the biggest factor affecting supporting cast production.

Nonetheless, the list still shows that Jordan won with weaker supporting casts (91', 93') than Lebron ever won with (12', 13', 16').. Indeed, even the flawed 538 list shows that Jordan won with less, which explains why his first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369) 30% more scoring and greater assists than Lebron's 3 rings.
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