Why do people even count LeBrons Finals losses in 2007, 2014, 2015??

[Dray n Klay]

They were statistically the 3 worst supporting casts in NBA History


https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png




Those 2007, 2014, 2015 Finals teams were D-League level type of bad













So in reality LeBron is actually 3/4 in the Finals

[BigKAT]

Seems Legitimate, but,

What stats is this based on?
I mean, it passes the eye test, but what are those stats based about exactly?
Geniuenly interested.

[Dray n Klay]

Seems Legitimate, but,

What stats is this based on?
I mean, it passes the eye test, but what are those stats based about exactly?
Geniuenly interested.

The average of the plus/minus rating of the teammates, weighted by minutes played

[TheWinningFam]

If you thought what lebron did was bad, what kobe did was worse..
Kobe 2011 vs mavs stats:
Usage:30%
17/3/1

Lebron 2011 vs mavs stats:
17/6/7
Usage:22%
Lebron was the third option in 2011 We know this because not only was he third in usage in the 2011 finals but also spolestra admitted that lebron was the third option in 2011
In the summer of 2010, the Heat's higher-ups made the mistake of thinking they had acquired the best player at his position, instead of realizing they had acquired the best player in the world. "He was just the small forward and that was it," says one of their coaches. Miami fell in the 2011 Finals to the Mavericks, with James marooned on the wing, clanking midrange jumpers. Regardless of what the box score still indicates, that was his last experience at small forward. "We went from plugging him into a system," the coach says, "to molding a system around him." The Heat wised up and handed LeBron the ball. Location wasn't all that important.
http://www.si.com/vault/2013/06/03/106329805/the-james-gang

Think about it, Lebron scored more, assisted more, and rebounded more and won more as the third option on a ''stacked'' 47 win heat team in his first year than kobe did as the league dog with a system molded around him on a lakers team coming off back to back championships.
Therefore we can conclude that lebron being the third option in 2011 and putting up GOAT 3rd option numbers constitutes that his true record is 3/3

[warriorfan]

If you remember, LeBron-Ball lowers the productivity of his teammates and turns play makers into play finishers thus relegating players to play a lesser and more ineffective brand of basketball than their true potential which in turn skew's the +/- stats to represent his teammates as worse than they really are


.
Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):. 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):. 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with..... Lebron (2015):.. 5.2, 25.0%

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):.. 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):.. 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:. 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:.. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:.. 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron:.. 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93':. 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95':. 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98':. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)


It's amazing - Lebron gets his APG by reducing his teammates' APG!!!!!... It's amazing that people rank him anywhere near Bird or Magic, let alone MJ.
.

[Trollsmasher]

also let's not forget that LeBron was a 3rd option (a role which he performed at a GOAT level by the way) and we only count 1st option Finals

so he is in fact 3/3

[T_L_P]

Because in 07 the Spurs won each game by an average of just 5.5 pts (including 4 total pts in the final two games) despite LeBron playing some of the worst basketball from a #1 option in NBA history.

Probably had more TOs than the rest of his team combined, shot like 35% and didn't even try to guard one of the Spurs' elite offensive talents (Manu and Parker).

[warriorfan]

If you thought what lebron did was bad, what kobe did was worse..
Kobe 2011 vs mavs stats:
Usage:30%
17/3/1

Lebron 2011 vs mavs stats:
17/6/7
Usage:22%
Lebron was the third option in 2011 We know this because not only was he third in usage in the 2011 finals but also spolestra admitted that lebron was the third option in 2011
In the summer of 2010, the Heat's higher-ups made the mistake of thinking they had acquired the best player at his position, instead of realizing they had acquired the best player in the world. "He was just the small forward and that was it," says one of their coaches. Miami fell in the 2011 Finals to the Mavericks, with James marooned on the wing, clanking midrange jumpers. Regardless of what the box score still indicates, that was his last experience at small forward. "We went from plugging him into a system," the coach says, "to molding a system around him." The Heat wised up and handed LeBron the ball. Location wasn't all that important.
http://www.si.com/vault/2013/06/03/106329805/the-james-gang

Think about it, Lebron scored more, assisted more, and rebounded more and won more as the third option on a ''stacked'' 47 win heat team in his first year than kobe did as the league dog with a system molded around him on a lakers team coming off back to back championships.
Therefore we can conclude that lebron being the third option in 2011 and putting up GOAT 3rd option numbers constitutes that his true record is 3/3




Kobe scored 23.3 points per game vs the 2011 Mavericks in the WCSF (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-western-conference-semifinals-mavericks-vs-lakers.html), that is 5.5 more points than LeBron James scored against the same team (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-finals-mavericks-vs-heat.html), Kobe did not get outscored by Jason Terry as well!

Kobe was also 32 years old in 2011 while LeBron was 26!

[feyki]

So , we can say ; Dirk won championship with a D-League Team ?

[TheWinningFam]

Kobe scored 23.3 points per game vs the 2011 Mavericks in the WCSF (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-western-conference-semifinals-mavericks-vs-lakers.html), that is 5.5 more points than LeBron James scored against the same team (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-finals-mavericks-vs-heat.html), Kobe did not get outscored by Jason Terry as well!

Kobe was also 32 years old in 2011 while LeBron was 26!

Lebron had 7 more assists and rebounds, 6 more assists is much more valuable than 5 more points, we know this because an assist is atleast worth 2 points and at most 3 points while 1 point is always worth just 1 point.

[BigKAT]

The average of the plus/minus rating of the teammates, weighted by minutes played

Does this give different emphasis to time without the player on the floor?

Like, I'd imagine players like Magic, Lebron and Kidd would make others around them better, so it wouldn't reflect their abilities best.

I'd best having Nash on the court would improve Stoudmaire's FG% and his RPM.

[Sarcastic]

Would he have gotten credit if they won? I'm sure Stans like you would've given it to him. Doesn't seem fair. You can get credit if you win, but it doesn't count if you lose.

[TheWinningFam]

Would he have gotten credit if they won? I'm sure Stans like you would've given it to him. Doesn't seem fair. You can get credit if you win, but it doesn't count if you lose.
Ofcourse, it makes perfect sense, if lebron wins in 2007/2014/2015 it would have been the GOAT piggy back wins, however his losses were due to playing superiror teams with inferiror teammates, if he would have won in 2011 it would have been counted because he put up GOAT 3rd option numbers, we know he was the third option because of 2 facts: he was 3rd in usage and spolestra admitted to him being the third option

In the summer of 2010, the Heat's higher-ups made the mistake of thinking they had acquired the best player at his position, instead of realizing they had acquired the best player in the world. "He was just the small forward and that was it," says one of their coaches. Miami fell in the 2011 Finals to the Mavericks, with James marooned on the wing, clanking midrange jumpers. Regardless of what the box score still indicates, that was his last experience at small forward. "We went from plugging him into a system," the coach says, "to molding a system around him." The Heat wised up and handed LeBron the ball. Location wasn't all that important.
http://www.si.com/vault/2013/06/03/1...the-james-gang

Therefore we can conclude that these finals shouldn't be counted against him since he was not the direct cause for the losses, think about it, lebron has never lost when his teammates played to a substantial level while he was the first option. The only time he's lost was due to either being relegated to a third option role, or sub suffecient team play.

[Sarcastic]

Ofcourse, it makes perfect sense, if lebron wins in 2007/2014/2015 it would have been the GOAT piggy back wins, however his losses were due to playing superiror teams with inferiror teammates, if he would have won in 2011 it would have been counted because he put up GOAT 3rd option numbers, we know he was the third option because of 2 facts: he was 3rd in usage and spolestra admitted to him being the third option

In the summer of 2010, the Heat's higher-ups made the mistake of thinking they had acquired the best player at his position, instead of realizing they had acquired the best player in the world. "He was just the small forward and that was it," says one of their coaches. Miami fell in the 2011 Finals to the Mavericks, with James marooned on the wing, clanking midrange jumpers. Regardless of what the box score still indicates, that was his last experience at small forward. "We went from plugging him into a system," the coach says, "to molding a system around him." The Heat wised up and handed LeBron the ball. Location wasn't all that important.
http://www.si.com/vault/2013/06/03/1...the-james-gang

Therefore we can conclude that these finals shouldn't be counted against him since he was not the direct cause for the losses, think about it, lebron has never lost when his teammates played to a substantial level while he was the first option. The only time he's lost was due to either being relegated to a third option role, or sub suffecient team play.



Ahhhh so you wanna use context for Lebron, but not for Jordan when he went 1-9 with trash teammates and had to play the legendary Celtics. Gotcha.

[tmacattack33]

2014 counts.

2007 and 2015 do not. And if anything, 2015 counts as a win for Lebron.

[f0und]

well you know, i dont really count his wins. so he really should be 0-4.

[BigKAT]

Everything counts.

The loss in 07',
The loss in 11'
The loss in 14',

And the amazing, unbeliveble once in a lifetime 3-1 comeback against the record holder for the RS.

Take the good with the bad,
No need to be insecure and dismiss the times he failed, Jordan got his ass handed to him by the pistons like 3 times in a row.

It just serves to make the Legend all the more satisfying,
I think Lebron's hard path to greatness only serves to make him a better ball player

[Dray n Klay]

2014 counts.

2007 and 2015 do not. And if anything, 2015 counts as a win for Lebron.

His 2014 supporting cast was one of the worst in NBA History







Wade was beyond awful, it doesnt count

[BigKAT]

His 2014 supporting cast was one of the worst in NBA History







Wade was beyond awful, it doesnt count

So should AI's and Kidd's Finals trips shouldn't count?
I mean, I'll be honest, I have not watched these finals but I heard their teams were awful. What about the 1999 NYK? They appear at the bottom of that chart.

[Lebronxrings]

replace lebron with any 2 all time greats and they still wouldn't be able to win the championship.

[Doranku]

Wow, I see two players outside of the top 10 (Hakeem and Dirk) were able to win titles with similar surrounding talent. Bron, a supposed top 3 player of all-time according to ISH, had THREE chances to do what Dirk and Hakeem did, but failed each time?

Yikes.

[LostCause]

Funny, that graphic shows Dirk and Hakeem carrying teams that were marginally better than the "worst" of Lebrons to championships. Even funnier is that one of those guys won one against Lebron himself, and hilariously, that 2011 Heat team is ranked as Lebrons best


Ahhhh so you wanna use context for Lebron, but not for Jordan when he went 1-9 with trash teammates and had to play the legendary Celtics. Gotcha.

You should ignore that clown. Learned my first week here he didn't know shit about basketball and is likely just here for pats on the back and emotes

[Duncan21formvp]

They count he lost with superior teams each time. If Lebron is soon good why has he been down every year of his career 3-2 in a series even with HCA?

[3ball]

.
Many guys played better against the same Spurs team:



Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007 Finals: 22 ppg on 35%

Melo vs. Spurs in 2007 1st Rd: 27 ppg on 48%

Dirk vs. Spurs in 2007.. WCF: 27 ppg on 53%

Kobe vs. Spurs in 2008.. WCF: 29 ppg on 53%



The reason for Lebron's worse efficiency was JUMPSHOOTING EFFICIENCY:



....................... midrange jumpshot FG%..... 3-point jumpshot FG%..... Jumpshot proportion of offense

Lebron 2007 Finals (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) .............14.8........................... 20.0............................... 52.2
Dirk 2006 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) ..................41.3........................... 50.0 .............................. 61.2
Melo 2007 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ...............37.5........................... 50.0 .............................. 59.1
Kobe 2008 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) .................50.0........................... 33.3............................... 63.3




Everyone shot well on jumpers against the Spurs, EXCEPT Lebron - the so the Spurs jumpshooting defense clearly wasn't prohibitive - Lebron just can't shoot.



Despite Lebron's 22 ppg on 35%, all 4 games were single-digit affairs, including 1-possession nail-biters in Games 3 and 4.. (edit: Game 1 was 11 pt game)

The Cavs had a great defense, but just needed a consistent volume scorer to win.

[Dray n Klay]

They count he lost with superior teams each time. If Lebron is soon good why has he been down every year of his career 3-2 in a series even with HCA?

When was LeBron down 3-2 in 2007 and 2014?


Check your facts, boi

[Duncan21formvp]

When was LeBron down 3-2 in 2007 and 2014?


Check your facts, boi
He has been down at least 3-2 in a series every year. Meaning always in an elimination game. Unlike Duncan in 1999, 2005, 2007 or MJ 1991, 1993, 1996, 1997 or Magic 1982, 1985,1987

[DirkNowitzki41]

Whoever counts 07 and 15 as losses are brain dead.

14 is questionable, but either way, doesnt downplay his legacy.

Crazy how 2011 is really his only legit finals loss.

[DirkNowitzki41]

He has been down at least 3-2 in a series every year. Meaning always in an elimination game. Unlike Duncan in 1999, 2005, 2007 or MJ 1991, 1993, 1996, 1997 or Magic 1982, 1985,1987

I know people reach to try to downplay LeBrons career, but jesus ****, this is the dumbest argument I've ever seen. :oldlol: :oldlol:

Please, just stop. I'm cringing sooo hard

[KirbyPls]

Everything counts.

The loss in 07',
The loss in 11'
The loss in 14',

And the amazing, unbeliveble once in a lifetime 3-1 comeback against the record holder for the RS.

Take the good with the bad,
No need to be insecure and dismiss the times he failed, Jordan got his ass handed to him by the pistons like 3 times in a row.

It just serves to make the Legend all the more satisfying,
I think Lebron's hard path to greatness only serves to make him a better ball player

Yep. :cheers:

[sixerfan82]

This is the best logic ever

He and his team were good enough to get there

There weren't good enough to win

[Gileraracer]

And still he lost despite colluding with super stacked teams

[bluechox2]

op counted 1 which negates his post

[Hey Yo]

Funny, that graphic shows Dirk and Hakeem carrying teams that were marginally better than the "worst" of Lebrons to championships. Even funnier is that one of those guys won one against Lebron himself, and hilariously, that 2011 Heat team is ranked as Lebrons best
2011 Heat was still Wade's team. He was captain at the time.

It wasn't until the summer of 2011 when Wade said to the media "it's LeBron's team now" that James became captain/leader. We both know what happened after that.

That chart should have Wade's name beside 2011 like it does for 2006.

[Paul George 24]

They were statistically the 3 worst supporting casts in NBA History


https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png




Those 2007, 2014, 2015 Finals teams were D-League level type of bad













So in reality LeBron is actually 3/4 in the Finals
THAT'S WHY LECHOKE ISN'T GOAT AND JORDAN IS :banana:

[Paul George 24]

When was LeBron down 3-2 in 2007 and 2014?


Check your facts, boi
IF HE IS SO GOOD,HE WILL NEVER GONE TO MIAMI,HE IS JUST A COWARD WHO AFRAID LOSE :lol

[Paul George 24]

replace lebron with any 2 all time greats and they still wouldn't be able to win the championship.
LECHOKE LOST BECAUSE HE CAN'T SHOT,IN 2014 LECHOKE ONLY CAN PAD STATS IN GARBAGE TIME :oldlol:
JORDAN WOULD SCORES 60PPG AGAINST GWS AND SWEEP THEM :banana: