RedBlackAttack -- How Is MJ Better Than LeBron? Wanted Your Take

[CTbasketball92]

I have my own reasons for thinking MJ was a bit better, but I put them really on the same level of impact at their peak levels. Wanted to know what ISH thought, specifically, RBA.

[BigKAT]

Six championships, higher scoring averages and cultural impact.

Lebron isn't that far behind, carrying some bad teams to the finals, and sometimes to rings, but he still isn't there.

I think 3-5 is a legit spot for Lebron currently.

[RedBlackAttack]

The game has changed a bit since Jordan was at the peak of his powers (1988-97), so making a direct comparison probably isn't the best way to put together a take on this.

And, there are definitely some things that LeBron trumps Jordan in. James will go down as the NBA's ultimate ironman. The guy has now gone 13 seasons without a single serious injury. For his first seven years, he was carrying the weight of a franchise and a city, and guided it close to the top. That's putting up mind-boggling numbers and doing it playing 40 minutes a night, every night, and kicking it up a few notches starting in 2006 (his first playoff season). That alone was an amazing run of injury-less basketball played at its highest level.

But, his last six seasons have shown superhuman ability to play the longest possible season, every season, while doing a little bit of everything on the floor every night. He hasn't had to do it for quite as many minutes in regular seasons as he did during his first tour in Cleveland, but the playoffs have been amplified because he has played through The Finals every single season.

And still ... no breaks, no injuries. Amazing.

Of the great players of all-time, only Kareem is going to come close to LeBron in that particular department and I don't think that one will be close by the end of James' career.


Jordan and LeBron are similar in that they both happened to be athletic marvels with genius-level basketball IQs and incredible work ethics.

LeBron does a little bit of everything, while Jordan was the greatest pure scorer I've ever seen and one of the greatest perimeter defenders I've ever seen.


Where Jordan has an edge on any player that I've ever seen play the game is his combination of competitive spirit, confidence, and the way those things merged with reality.

Starting in about 1987, you could see that Jordan knew he was the best player in the world. He just didn't have the team yet to win a title, but it was obvious he was playing a brand of basketball no one had ever seen.

To be so freaking good on both ends and then to combine it with him being totally self-aware ... I think LeBron is to a place now where he is comfortable in his own skin and he knows what he is, which is one of the greatest all-around players of all-time. But, he didn't always have that mentality.

Despite all the hard work, incredible athleticism and wrecking ball of a body, it took him a good decade to find his comfort zone between scoring and playmaking and defense and all that.

It felt like Jordan came equipped with it and that absolute killer instinct that can't be taught or learned.


I've said it before and, for those who didn't live through the Jordan era, this is not something you can really feel when just watching old games that you know the outcome of in advance...

Once Jordan got his team in place, there was an aura of inevitability to watching him play that I've never experienced with any other athlete in any other team sport. I'm a lifelong Cavs fan and we had some really good teams during the Jordan years, but it almost felt ... pointless when we played the Bulls. And that's not something that you can feel when re-watching the game a decade later.

If it was close, there was going to come a time in the game where he was just going to will the team to a win. That wasn't always necessary. There was a lot of blowouts with those great teams and sometimes he might just come out and put 50 or 60 on you. But, regardless of his numbers or the kind of game he was having, if the game was big enough and it got close enough, he was eventually going to push them past you.


LeBron is highly likely to end up the second greatest player that I've ever seen, personally. But, I've never felt that thing, whatever it is, with any other player including LeBron ... and I've been in a position to root for and against him.

The fulcrum of ability meeting confidence and competitive spirit ... rooting against Jordan was an exercise in futility.

Hope this helped answer the question, though it's a rather vague response.

[BigKAT]

The game has changed a bit since Jordan was at the peak of his powers (1988-97), so making a direct comparison probably isn't the best way to put together a take on this.

And, there are definitely some things that LeBron trumps Jordan in. James will go down as the NBA's ultimate ironman. The guy has now gone 13 seasons without a single serious injury. For his first seven years, he was carrying the weight of a franchise and a city, and guided it close to the top. That's putting up mind-boggling numbers and doing it playing 40 minutes a night, every night, and kicking it up a few notches starting in 2006 (his first playoff season). That alone was an amazing run of injury-less basketball played at its highest level.

But, his last six seasons have shown superhuman ability to play the longest possible season, every season, while doing a little bit of everything on the floor every night. He hasn't had to do it for quite as many minutes in regular seasons as he did during his first tour in Cleveland, but the playoffs have been amplified because he has played through The Finals every single season.

And still ... no breaks, no injuries. Amazing.

Of the great players of all-time, only Kareem is going to come close to LeBron in that particular department and I don't think that one will be close by the end of James' career.


Jordan and LeBron are similar in that they both happened to be athletic marvels with genius-level basketball IQs and incredible work ethics.

LeBron does a little bit of everything, while Jordan was the greatest pure scorer I've ever seen and one of the greatest perimeter defenders I've ever seen.


Where Jordan has an edge on any player that I've ever seen play the game is his combination of competitive spirit, confidence, and the way those things merged with reality.

Starting in about 1987, you could see that Jordan knew he was the best player in the world. He just didn't have the team yet to win a title, but it was obvious he was playing a brand of basketball no one had ever seen.

To be so freaking good on both ends and then to combine it with him being totally self-aware ... I think LeBron is to a place now where he is comfortable in his own skin and he knows what he is, which is one of the greatest all-around players of all-time. But, he didn't always have that mentality.

Despite all the hard work, incredible athleticism and wrecking ball of a body, it took him a good decade to find his comfort zone between scoring and playmaking and defense and all that.

It felt like Jordan came equipped with it and that absolute killer instinct that can't be taught or learned.


I've said it before and, for those who didn't live through the Jordan era, this is not something you can really feel when just watching old games that you know the outcome of in advance...

Once Jordan got his team in place, there was an aura of inevitability to watching him play that I've never experienced with any other athlete in any other team sport. I'm a lifelong Cavs fan and we had some really good teams during the Jordan years, but it almost felt ... pointless when we played the Bulls. And that's not something that you can feel when re-watching the game a decade later.

If it was close, there was going to come a time in the game where he was just going to will the team to a win. That wasn't always necessary. There was a lot of blowouts with those great teams and sometimes he might just come out and put 50 or 60 on you. But, if the game was big enough and it got close enough, he was eventually going to push them past you.


LeBron is highly likely to end up the second greatest player that I've ever seen, personally. But, I've never felt that thing, whatever it is, with any other player including LeBron ... and I've been in a position to root for and against him.

Hope this helped answer the question, though it's a rather vague response.

I think you can close the thread now.

[feyki]

Lebron wasn't on 88-93 Jordan level in his entrie career ( beside of 09 and 16 ) .

Jordan was more consistent ( 2010 and specially 2011 ) .

Lebron was much lower impact player before 2009 .

[lilteapot]

Jordan is a better scorer, shooter, defender, more clutch, and has an untainted Finals record.

Lebron isn't far behind, but Jordan is still clearly better.

[CTbasketball92]

The game has changed a bit since Jordan was at the peak of his powers (1988-97), so making a direct comparison probably isn't the best way to put together a take on this.

And, there are definitely some things that LeBron trumps Jordan in. James will go down as the NBA's ultimate ironman. The guy has now gone 13 seasons without a single serious injury. For his first seven years, he was carrying the weight of a franchise and a city, and guided it close to the top. That's putting up mind-boggling numbers and doing it playing 40 minutes a night, every night, and kicking it up a few notches starting in 2006 (his first playoff season). That alone was an amazing run of injury-less basketball played at its highest level.

But, his last six seasons have shown superhuman ability to play the longest possible season, every season, while doing a little bit of everything on the floor every night. He hasn't had to do it for quite as many minutes in regular seasons as he did during his first tour in Cleveland, but the playoffs have been amplified because he has played through The Finals every single season.

And still ... no breaks, no injuries. Amazing.

Of the great players of all-time, only Kareem is going to come close to LeBron in that particular department and I don't think that one will be close by the end of James' career.


Jordan and LeBron are similar in that they both happened to be athletic marvels with genius-level basketball IQs and incredible work ethics.

LeBron does a little bit of everything, while Jordan was the greatest pure scorer I've ever seen and one of the greatest perimeter defenders I've ever seen.


Where Jordan has an edge on any player that I've ever seen play the game is his combination of competitive spirit, confidence, and the way those things merged with reality.

Starting in about 1987, you could see that Jordan knew he was the best player in the world. He just didn't have the team yet to win a title, but it was obvious he was playing a brand of basketball no one had ever seen.

To be so freaking good on both ends and then to combine it with him being totally self-aware ... I think LeBron is to a place now where he is comfortable in his own skin and he knows what he is, which is one of the greatest all-around players of all-time. But, he didn't always have that mentality.

Despite all the hard work, incredible athleticism and wrecking ball of a body, it took him a good decade to find his comfort zone between scoring and playmaking and defense and all that.

It felt like Jordan came equipped with it and that absolute killer instinct that can't be taught or learned.


I've said it before and, for those who didn't live through the Jordan era, this is not something you can really feel when just watching old games that you know the outcome of in advance...

Once Jordan got his team in place, there was an aura of inevitability to watching him play that I've never experienced with any other athlete in any other team sport. I'm a lifelong Cavs fan and we had some really good teams during the Jordan years, but it almost felt ... pointless when we played the Bulls. And that's not something that you can feel when re-watching the game a decade later.

If it was close, there was going to come a time in the game where he was just going to will the team to a win. That wasn't always necessary. There was a lot of blowouts with those great teams and sometimes he might just come out and put 50 or 60 on you. But, regardless of his numbers or the kind of game he was having, if the game was big enough and it got close enough, he was eventually going to push them past you.


LeBron is highly likely to end up the second greatest player that I've ever seen, personally. But, I've never felt that thing, whatever it is, with any other player including LeBron ... and I've been in a position to root for and against him.

The fulcrum of ability meeting confidence and competitive spirit ... rooting against Jordan was an exercise in futility.

Hope this helped answer the question, though it's a rather vague response.

Damn dude, hell of a response. Can't say I disagree with any of that.

[Da_Realist]

I think you can close the thread now.

Agreed. Especially spot on is the point that RBA made when he said you can't really get a feel for the inevitability aspect watching the game decades later having already known the outcome.

[Real14]

:biggums:

[Da_Realist]

RBA, I don't think Lebron is at #2 but I really appreciate that you gave a thoughtful response and did not base everything on some unrelated numbers. Nor did you give a dry run down of all their individual accolades. Refreshing...and rare here on ISH.

I'm not against numbers nor do I think they are useless but this over-reliance on them without considering context disturbs me. I wonder if most of ISH even know what they are looking at. Basketball is as much art as sport.

[FKAri]

The game is too different now to compare easily. But the jist of it should be that Jordan's scoring arsenal puts him ahead. And imo it puts him insurmountably ahead.

[RedBlackAttack]

RBA, I don't think Lebron is at #2 but I really appreciate that you gave a thoughtful response and did not base everything on some unrelated numbers. Nor did you give a dry run down of all their individual accolades. Refreshing...and rare here on ISH.

I'm not against numbers nor do I think they are useless but this over-reliance on them without considering context disturbs me. I wonder if most of ISH even know what they are looking at. Basketball is as much art as sport.
I try not to rate guys that I didn't actually watch play in real-time for a lot of the reasons I expressed in my post. That's why I said that I think LeBron will probably end up #2 when his career is over for guys I've watched.

I could make up a list of the greatest players ever based on championships, statistics, etc., but I find that kind of pointless. It is hard to appreciate how great a player is unless you experienced their play in real-time, imo.

There are other guys that will have a case. I caught the tale end of Kareem's career and then there are Bird/Magic, Shaq, Dream, Duncan, etc. But depending on how things shake out the rest of the way, I think he can leap all of them except Jordan.

Appreciate the compliments.

[Real14]

It's a damn shame to compare a finals loser who also colluded to a 6/6 NBA champ who wasn't a bitch to participate in a damn dunk contest.

[f0und]

Agreed. Especially spot on is the point that RBA made when he said you can't really get a feel for the inevitability aspect watching the game decades later having already known the outcome.

i know that feeling, as do many others who lived through that era. that no matter what, jordans gonna win, because he always did. i remember watching that 95 playoff series against the magic and feeling utterly shocked that he lost the game and series. all the mistakes he made were so un-jordan-like. dont get me wrong, he was still great but he looked like any other superstar, instead of a basketball god. seeing basketball greats underperform and lose big games is not uncommon, but jordan was the exception. like steph this year, or bron in '11, kobe in '04, etc. thats why i couldnt believe my eyes. for years, i was accustomed to seeing jordan ALWAYS delivering.

but as we all know, that 95 series was the only time during his 91-98 run that he didnt deliver. and in true jordan like fashion, he came back the next year and lead the bulls to a record setting year and won the ship.

[RedBlackAttack]

i know that feeling, as do many others who lived through that era. that no matter what, jordans gonna win, because he always did. i remember watching that 95 playoff series against the magic and feeling utterly shocked that he lost the game and series. all the mistakes he made were so un-jordan-like. dont get me wrong, he was still great but he looked like any other superstar, instead of a basketball god. seeing basketball greats underperform and lose big games is not uncommon, but jordan was the exception. like steph this year, or bron in '11, kobe in '04, etc. thats why i couldnt believe my eyes. for years, i was accustomed to seeing jordan ALWAYS delivering.

but as we all know, that 95 series was the only time during his 91-98 run that he didnt deliver. and in true jordan like fashion, he came back the next year and lead the bulls to a record setting year and won the ship.
I was going to mention that but I didn't want to go over the words limit for a single post. :oldlol:

There was no doubt in my mind after watching him put 55 up on the Knicks shortly after his return in 1995 that the Bulls were going to win another title.

When Nick Anderson (iirc) snuck up behind him and stole the ball just as it looked like he might pull it out was completely counter to everything I had known about Jordan.

You know he stewed about it all summer, leading to the greatest single season by a team in NBA history.

[AintNoSunshine]

The game has changed a bit since Jordan was at the peak of his powers (1988-97), so making a direct comparison probably isn't the best way to put together a take on this.

And, there are definitely some things that LeBron trumps Jordan in. James will go down as the NBA's ultimate ironman. The guy has now gone 13 seasons without a single serious injury. For his first seven years, he was carrying the weight of a franchise and a city, and guided it close to the top. That's putting up mind-boggling numbers and doing it playing 40 minutes a night, every night, and kicking it up a few notches starting in 2006 (his first playoff season). That alone was an amazing run of injury-less basketball played at its highest level.

But, his last six seasons have shown superhuman ability to play the longest possible season, every season, while doing a little bit of everything on the floor every night. He hasn't had to do it for quite as many minutes in regular seasons as he did during his first tour in Cleveland, but the playoffs have been amplified because he has played through The Finals every single season.

And still ... no breaks, no injuries. Amazing.

Of the great players of all-time, only Kareem is going to come close to LeBron in that particular department and I don't think that one will be close by the end of James' career.


Jordan and LeBron are similar in that they both happened to be athletic marvels with genius-level basketball IQs and incredible work ethics.

LeBron does a little bit of everything, while Jordan was the greatest pure scorer I've ever seen and one of the greatest perimeter defenders I've ever seen.


Where Jordan has an edge on any player that I've ever seen play the game is his combination of competitive spirit, confidence, and the way those things merged with reality.

Starting in about 1987, you could see that Jordan knew he was the best player in the world. He just didn't have the team yet to win a title, but it was obvious he was playing a brand of basketball no one had ever seen.

To be so freaking good on both ends and then to combine it with him being totally self-aware ... I think LeBron is to a place now where he is comfortable in his own skin and he knows what he is, which is one of the greatest all-around players of all-time. But, he didn't always have that mentality.

Despite all the hard work, incredible athleticism and wrecking ball of a body, it took him a good decade to find his comfort zone between scoring and playmaking and defense and all that.

It felt like Jordan came equipped with it and that absolute killer instinct that can't be taught or learned.


I've said it before and, for those who didn't live through the Jordan era, this is not something you can really feel when just watching old games that you know the outcome of in advance...

Once Jordan got his team in place, there was an aura of inevitability to watching him play that I've never experienced with any other athlete in any other team sport. I'm a lifelong Cavs fan and we had some really good teams during the Jordan years, but it almost felt ... pointless when we played the Bulls. And that's not something that you can feel when re-watching the game a decade later.

If it was close, there was going to come a time in the game where he was just going to will the team to a win. That wasn't always necessary. There was a lot of blowouts with those great teams and sometimes he might just come out and put 50 or 60 on you. But, regardless of his numbers or the kind of game he was having, if the game was big enough and it got close enough, he was eventually going to push them past you.


LeBron is highly likely to end up the second greatest player that I've ever seen, personally. But, I've never felt that thing, whatever it is, with any other player including LeBron ... and I've been in a position to root for and against him.

The fulcrum of ability meeting confidence and competitive spirit ... rooting against Jordan was an exercise in futility.

Hope this helped answer the question, though it's a rather vague response.

:applause: :applause: Great response.


When you mentioned the invincible aura I thought of Shaq during his championship years, when he too was literally unstoppable on the court. How would you say their aura is different? I only caught the tale end of MJ's Bulls career and honestly was a bit young to exactly rememebr.

[RedBlackAttack]

:applause: :applause: Great response.


When you mentioned the invincible aura I thought of Shaq during his championship years, when he too was literally unstoppable on the court. How would you say their aura is different? I only caught the tale end of MJ's Bulls career and honestly was a bit young to exactly rememebr.
Shaq is definitely one of the best I've ever seen. Those Lakers teams did have a bit of an aura to them and Shaq could dominate games on both ends and the boards. But, he couldn't just take over at the end like Jordan used to.

He had an Achilles heel -- free throws. That made it hard for the team to completely lean on him offensively in crunch time.

The East was so bad in that period, too, that it was almost like the WC Finals were the actual Finals and there weren't a lot of teams that could compete with them, talent-wise.

Shaq was a dominating player, though. No doubt.

[Monta Ellis MVP]

I'm a big time Pacers fan and a lifelong fan of the Cavaliers as well. Michael Jordan is better.

[CTbasketball92]

Shaq is definitely one of the best I've ever seen. Those Lakers teams did have a bit of an aura to them and Shaq could dominate games on both ends and the boards. But, he couldn't just take over at the end like Jordan used to.

He had an Achilles heel -- free throws. That made it hard for the team to completely lean on him offensively in crunch time.

The East was so bad in that period, too, that it was almost like the WC Finals were the actual Finals and there weren't a lot of teams that could compete with them, talent-wise.

Shaq was a dominating player, though. No doubt.

Honestly, I think MJ's iso-skills and his mastery of the most difficult to defend shot gave him a dimension LeBron and Shaq couldn't get. Considering MJ was prob. close to LeBron in IQ and passing and a great ballhandler and a great athlete, he could manage a game, make the right decisions, and get an easy look for himself at any time. When you're that good at shooting the midrange (he shot like 49% on a high volume) and at the rim (he finished an absured 70% at the basket during his peak) it;s like you can literally score at will, in addition to being a great decision maker and defender.

[Da_Realist]

Shaq is definitely one of the best I've ever seen. Those Lakers teams did have a bit of an aura to them and Shaq could dominate games on both ends and the boards. But, he couldn't just take over at the end like Jordan used to.

He had an Achilles heel -- free throws. That made it hard for the team to completely lean on him offensively in crunch time.

The East was so bad in that period, too, that it was almost like the WC Finals were the actual Finals and there weren't a lot of teams that could compete with them, talent-wise.

Shaq was a dominating player, though. No doubt.

I agree. I think the main difference is MJ is a natural born competitor. Shaq is a natural born jokester who just happened to be a dominant basketball player. Lebron wants to be liked. That's the main difference. Shaq went all out for one season with the Lakers and then fell back to the "light switch" mentality. Meaning he thought he could flip it on or off at will. Since most teams take on the identity of their leader, Shaq's Lakers did the same. That 2001 team was better than their record but they horsed around all season until a few weeks before the playoffs. They could have also threatened the 70 win mark if they were more consistent.

MJ was the ultimate competitor. His light switch was broken -- it was always on. It burned bright enough to strike fear in opponents and his own teammates. That's why the team needed Pippen as a buffer and Jackson as a manager. Given the right atmosphere (and precautions) that competitive spirit drove the Bulls to maximize their results. Steve Kerr said games were nothing compared to practices. BJ just talked about MJ's competitiveness and how it drove him and the team.

Magic and Bird were competitive beasts, too. Some may find it surprising about Magic but don't let that smile fool you. He would send 100 mph passes at the face if he felt his teammate wasn't giving his all. He ran those practices hard and at a breakneck pace, too, according to a Lakers book I read a few years ago.

That's why MJ, Magic and Bird are the top three players I've seen play. The intangibles. I give Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Lebron respect, though.

[LostCause]

The game has changed a bit since Jordan was at the peak of his powers (1988-97), so making a direct comparison probably isn't the best way to put together a take on this.

And, there are definitely some things that LeBron trumps Jordan in. James will go down as the NBA's ultimate ironman. The guy has now gone 13 seasons without a single serious injury. For his first seven years, he was carrying the weight of a franchise and a city, and guided it close to the top. That's putting up mind-boggling numbers and doing it playing 40 minutes a night, every night, and kicking it up a few notches starting in 2006 (his first playoff season). That alone was an amazing run of injury-less basketball played at its highest level.

But, his last six seasons have shown superhuman ability to play the longest possible season, every season, while doing a little bit of everything on the floor every night. He hasn't had to do it for quite as many minutes in regular seasons as he did during his first tour in Cleveland, but the playoffs have been amplified because he has played through The Finals every single season.

And still ... no breaks, no injuries. Amazing.

Of the great players of all-time, only Kareem is going to come close to LeBron in that particular department and I don't think that one will be close by the end of James' career.


Jordan and LeBron are similar in that they both happened to be athletic marvels with genius-level basketball IQs and incredible work ethics.

LeBron does a little bit of everything, while Jordan was the greatest pure scorer I've ever seen and one of the greatest perimeter defenders I've ever seen.


Where Jordan has an edge on any player that I've ever seen play the game is his combination of competitive spirit, confidence, and the way those things merged with reality.

Starting in about 1987, you could see that Jordan knew he was the best player in the world. He just didn't have the team yet to win a title, but it was obvious he was playing a brand of basketball no one had ever seen.

To be so freaking good on both ends and then to combine it with him being totally self-aware ... I think LeBron is to a place now where he is comfortable in his own skin and he knows what he is, which is one of the greatest all-around players of all-time. But, he didn't always have that mentality.

Despite all the hard work, incredible athleticism and wrecking ball of a body, it took him a good decade to find his comfort zone between scoring and playmaking and defense and all that.

It felt like Jordan came equipped with it and that absolute killer instinct that can't be taught or learned.


I've said it before and, for those who didn't live through the Jordan era, this is not something you can really feel when just watching old games that you know the outcome of in advance...

Once Jordan got his team in place, there was an aura of inevitability to watching him play that I've never experienced with any other athlete in any other team sport. I'm a lifelong Cavs fan and we had some really good teams during the Jordan years, but it almost felt ... pointless when we played the Bulls. And that's not something that you can feel when re-watching the game a decade later.

If it was close, there was going to come a time in the game where he was just going to will the team to a win. That wasn't always necessary. There was a lot of blowouts with those great teams and sometimes he might just come out and put 50 or 60 on you. But, regardless of his numbers or the kind of game he was having, if the game was big enough and it got close enough, he was eventually going to push them past you.


LeBron is highly likely to end up the second greatest player that I've ever seen, personally. But, I've never felt that thing, whatever it is, with any other player including LeBron ... and I've been in a position to root for and against him.

The fulcrum of ability meeting confidence and competitive spirit ... rooting against Jordan was an exercise in futility.

Hope this helped answer the question, though it's a rather vague response.

This was a great post, one of the best I've read since I've been here

This thread gives me hope that there's still some quality left

[BigKAT]

When youre insecure, hide yourself behind stats. Just look at wilt, oscar. But at the end of the day, we only care about results. And anyone who isnt a loser will never respect bran, wilt, oscar.


Question though,

Do Russel's 11 rings in a mostly 8-team league count as much as Duncan's 5 rings in a 30 team league with players like Kobe, Lebron and Shaq standing in his way?

Results isn't everything imo.
There's context to it.

Duncan's titles are more impressive because of the competition he faced,
Russell didn't face nearly as much imo. :rolleyes:

[BigKAT]

Yah but what i mean is rings/results is all that matters. I dont care about mvps, all stars, etc. MVPs is for losers. You can manipulate stats but not rings.

I agree.
I'm just saying that 3-5 Rings in the modern era is more impressive to me then anything predating the 80's or maybe even 90's.

Six rings in the 1990s easily more impressive then 11 in the 60's.

[ClipperRevival]

The game has changed a bit since Jordan was at the peak of his powers (1988-97), so making a direct comparison probably isn't the best way to put together a take on this.

And, there are definitely some things that LeBron trumps Jordan in. James will go down as the NBA's ultimate ironman. The guy has now gone 13 seasons without a single serious injury. For his first seven years, he was carrying the weight of a franchise and a city, and guided it close to the top. That's putting up mind-boggling numbers and doing it playing 40 minutes a night, every night, and kicking it up a few notches starting in 2006 (his first playoff season). That alone was an amazing run of injury-less basketball played at its highest level.

But, his last six seasons have shown superhuman ability to play the longest possible season, every season, while doing a little bit of everything on the floor every night. He hasn't had to do it for quite as many minutes in regular seasons as he did during his first tour in Cleveland, but the playoffs have been amplified because he has played through The Finals every single season.

And still ... no breaks, no injuries. Amazing.

Of the great players of all-time, only Kareem is going to come close to LeBron in that particular department and I don't think that one will be close by the end of James' career.


Jordan and LeBron are similar in that they both happened to be athletic marvels with genius-level basketball IQs and incredible work ethics.

LeBron does a little bit of everything, while Jordan was the greatest pure scorer I've ever seen and one of the greatest perimeter defenders I've ever seen.


Where Jordan has an edge on any player that I've ever seen play the game is his combination of competitive spirit, confidence, and the way those things merged with reality.

Starting in about 1987, you could see that Jordan knew he was the best player in the world. He just didn't have the team yet to win a title, but it was obvious he was playing a brand of basketball no one had ever seen.

To be so freaking good on both ends and then to combine it with him being totally self-aware ... I think LeBron is to a place now where he is comfortable in his own skin and he knows what he is, which is one of the greatest all-around players of all-time. But, he didn't always have that mentality.

Despite all the hard work, incredible athleticism and wrecking ball of a body, it took him a good decade to find his comfort zone between scoring and playmaking and defense and all that.

It felt like Jordan came equipped with it and that absolute killer instinct that can't be taught or learned.


I've said it before and, for those who didn't live through the Jordan era, this is not something you can really feel when just watching old games that you know the outcome of in advance...

Once Jordan got his team in place, there was an aura of inevitability to watching him play that I've never experienced with any other athlete in any other team sport. I'm a lifelong Cavs fan and we had some really good teams during the Jordan years, but it almost felt ... pointless when we played the Bulls. And that's not something that you can feel when re-watching the game a decade later.

If it was close, there was going to come a time in the game where he was just going to will the team to a win. That wasn't always necessary. There was a lot of blowouts with those great teams and sometimes he might just come out and put 50 or 60 on you. But, regardless of his numbers or the kind of game he was having, if the game was big enough and it got close enough, he was eventually going to push them past you.


LeBron is highly likely to end up the second greatest player that I've ever seen, personally. But, I've never felt that thing, whatever it is, with any other player including LeBron ... and I've been in a position to root for and against him.

The fulcrum of ability meeting confidence and competitive spirit ... rooting against Jordan was an exercise in futility.

Hope this helped answer the question, though it's a rather vague response.

Good point about needing to watch MJ live to truly appreciate the killer mentality and the aura of invincibility he displayed. Like his mastery of the game was so complete, he gave off the sense that he would somehow find a way to beat you when the chips were down, which he did. I don't if I'll ever get that sense from anyone in my lifetime.

But MJ's durability is up there with anyone. Check the stats. Outside of his foot injury in his rookie season, dude pretty much played 82 games every season sans a few while playing GOAT level on both ends. MJ's energy level was about as great as anyone.

[ClipperRevival]

I agree. I think the main difference is MJ is a natural born competitor. Shaq is a natural born jokester who just happened to be a dominant basketball player. Lebron wants to be liked. That's the main difference. Shaq went all out for one season with the Lakers and then fell back to the "light switch" mentality. Meaning he thought he could flip it on or off at will. Since most teams take on the identity of their leader, Shaq's Lakers did the same. That 2001 team was better than their record but they horsed around all season until a few weeks before the playoffs. They could have also threatened the 70 win mark if they were more consistent.

MJ was the ultimate competitor. His light switch was broken -- it was always on. It burned bright enough to strike fear in opponents and his own teammates. That's why the team needed Pippen as a buffer and Jackson as a manager. Given the right atmosphere (and precautions) that competitive spirit drove the Bulls to maximize their results. Steve Kerr said games were nothing compared to practices. BJ just talked about MJ's competitiveness and how it drove him and the team.

Magic and Bird were competitive beasts, too. Some may find it surprising about Magic but don't let that smile fool you. He would send 100 mph passes at the face if he felt his teammate wasn't giving his all. He ran those practices hard and at a breakneck pace, too, according to a Lakers book I read a few years ago.

That's why MJ, Magic and Bird are the top three players I've seen play. The intangibles. I give Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Lebron respect, though.

Yup, you can't fake what's in your heart. You are either a killer and want to destroy your opponent every time you step on the floor or need outside motivation to get you amped up. MJ's switch was always on.

[RedBlackAttack]

Good point about needing to watch MJ live to truly appreciate the killer mentality and the aura of invincibility he displayed. Like his mastery of the game was so complete, he gave off the sense that he would somehow find a way to beat you when the chips were down, which he did. I don't if I'll ever get that sense from anyone in my lifetime.

But MJ's durability is up there with anyone. Check the stats. Outside of his foot injury in his rookie season, dude pretty much played 82 games every season sans a few while playing GOAT level on both ends. MJ's energy level was about as great as anyone.
Jordan's endurance, fitness, etc. was amazing, but not close to what James has completed. Remember, he was a rookie in 1984-85 and, in his second year, he suffered a major injury three games into the season and didn't come back until late March (the end of the season). He had to work his way back, too. After missing 61 games, he came back with 14 games left in the season, started only 4 of them and he only broke 35 minutes once in that span.

Of course, he did go on to perform amazingly in the Bulls' first round playoff exit, scoring 40+ points in the first game and then setting the all-time playoff record 63 points in Game 2 at the Garden against one of the greatest teams of all-time.

But, still ... LeBron has never suffered an injury even close to that.

Then, MJ played seven more seasons of the greatest basketball we've ever seen and he was super-durable through it all, rarely missing a game.

But then he retired for a year-and-a-half, came back, played another three seasons and retired for good.

That means the longest stretch Jordan ever played without either a major injury or taking time off was seven seasons (1986-93). In those seven seasons and the three seasons after his comeback, he showed amazing durability ...

But we've never really seen what James has done. We're talking 13 consecutive seasons of playing an insanely high level of basketball every season, crazy minutes every year, playoff runs every year starting in his third season, and Finals runs in each of his last six years. All the while, he only takes the occasional game off to rest.

That is probably the most amazing thing about LeBron ... moreso than the insane athleticism or anything else. His durability is really reaching unheard of levels.

There are arguments to be made that modern training techniques, fitness advances, modern medicine, etc. have made guys more durable than they used to be. And, there is truth in all of that.

But, LeBron appears to be a basketball cyborg when it comes to durability.

[ClipperRevival]

As for OPs question, I would say in simplest terms, the eye test. How many people who saw both live rate LeBron over MJ? Not too many.

[ClipperRevival]

Jordan's endurance, fitness, etc. was amazing, but not close to what James has completed. Remember, he was a rookie in 1984-85 and, in his second year, he suffered a major injury three games into the season and didn't come back until late March (the end of the season). He had to work his way back, too. After missing 61 games, he came back with 14 games left in the season, started only 4 of them and he only broke 35 minutes once in that span.

Of course, he did go on to perform amazingly in the Bulls' first round playoff exit, scoring 40+ points in the first game and then setting the all-time playoff record 63 points in Game 2 at the Garden against one of the greatest teams of all-time.

But, still ... LeBron has never suffered an injury even close to that.

Then, MJ played seven more seasons of the greatest basketball we've ever seen and he was super-durable through it all, rarely missing a game.

But then he retired for a year-and-a-half, came back, played another three seasons and retired for good.

That means the longest stretch Jordan ever played without either a major injury or taking time off was seven seasons (1986-93). In those seven seasons and the three seasons after his comeback, he showed amazing durability ...

But we've never really seen what James has done. We're talking 13 consecutive seasons of playing an insanely high level of basketball every season, crazy minutes every year, playoff runs every year starting in his third season, and Finals runs in each of his last six years.

That is probably the most amazing thing about LeBron ... moreso than the insane athleticism or anything else. His durability is really reaching unheard of levels.

There are arguments to be made that modern training techniques, fitness advances, modern medicine, etc. have made guys more durable than they used to be. And, there is truth in all of that.

But, LeBron appears to be a basketball cyborg when it comes to durability.

Come on bro, you going to downgrade MJ for that one injury in his 2nd year? Outside of that, he was about as durable as anyone. Like I said again, CHECK THE STATS. And holding his retirement against him is unfair. That's not missing time due to injury.

I mean I get what you're saying, Bron is incredibly durable, up there with the greats but so was MJ.

[RedBlackAttack]

Come on bro, you going to downgrade MJ for that one injury in his 2nd year? Outside of that, he was about as durable as anyone. Like I said again, CHECK THE STATS. And holding his retirement against him is unfair. That's not missing time due to injury.

I mean I get what you're saying, Bron is incredibly durable, up there with the greats but so was MJ.
I'm not downgrading anyone. I said that Jordan's durability was amazing in its own right.

I'm just complimenting LeBron in this area ... which I think should be allowed. Jordan doesn't have to be the best in every single, solitary aspect of the game.

He was crazy durable. LeBron is the most durable athlete I've ever seen, I think. There's no shame in that and I'm certainly not taking a shot at Jordan. It's just recognition of an amazing feat that someone other than Jordan has accomplished.

I've already stated how I feel about Jordan. I don't think I should have to qualify every good thing I say about everyone else with "Jordan aside."

Also, Jordan's break from the game after 1993 had several elements, but he noted that two of them were being "fatigued" and "mentally drained."

That's not holding anything against Jordan. He had a right to be drained. But it does help to appreciate what James continues to do, now through his 13th season, and six straight Finals. It's uncharted durability waters.

I feel like I'm putting the kibosh on him simply by discussing this, btw. lol

[3ball]

Jordan said he was physically drained


Jordan never said he was physically drained - that's a lie.

He said he didn't have any more challenges and Phil said the same thing.. This is documented fact - there's youtube of all this, but there's no youtube or quote of him EVER saying he was physically drained..

Pippen had his best year in 1994, so he wasn't drained and neither would MJ.





It's Lebron's 13th season, and he has straight Finals. It's uncharted durability waters.


How many straight Finals would Jordan make if he didn't retire, and/or only needed to defeat HALF (http://i.imgur.com/CIu6gDI.jpg) the 50-win teams that he actually beat?

also, longevity can never match degree of GREATNESS - lebron can never match 6/6 in 13 seasons, so he can never be as GREAT as Jordan... lebron has HALF the accomplishments in the same amount of time..

jordan wins the degree of greatness award (goat), while lebron can have the longevity award
.

[andgar923]

There's a number of things that MJ is much better than Bron.

And whatever aspects Bron is better than MJ in, he isn't by much.

[ClipperRevival]

I'm not downgrading anyone. I said that Jordan's durability was amazing in its own right.

I'm just complimenting LeBron in this area ... which I think should be allowed. Jordan doesn't have to be the best in every single, solitary aspect of the game.

He was crazy durable. LeBron is the most durable athlete I've ever seen, I think. There's no shame in that and I'm certainly not taking a shot at Jordan. It's just recognition of an amazing feat that someone other than Jordan has accomplished.

I've already stated how I feel about Jordan. I don't think I should have to qualify every good thing I say about everyone else with "Jordan aside."

Also, Jordan's break from the game after 1993 had several elements, but he noted that two of them were being "fatigued" and "mentally drained."

That's not holding anything against Jordan. He had a right to be drained. But it does help to appreciate what James continues to do, now through his 13th season, and six straight Finals. It's uncharted durability waters.

I feel like I'm putting the kibosh on him simply by discussing this, btw. lol

I see your points. But as 3ball said above, MJ didn't retire because he was fatigued or drained. He retired because he lost the motivation and the need to prove anything. And that's when he knew he should retire because if you lack the fire, you don't bring your best and I don't think MJ could settle bringing anything less than his best to the court. The fire came back a couple years later.

[ClipperRevival]

Jordan never said he was physically drained - that's a lie.

He said he didn't have any more challenges and Phil said the same thing.. This is documented fact - there's youtube of all this, but there's no youtube or quote of him EVER saying he was physically drained..

Pippen had his best year in 1994, so he wasn't drained and neither would MJ.



How many straight Finals would Jordan make if he didn't retire, and/or only needed to defeat HALF (http://i.imgur.com/CIu6gDI.jpg) the 50-win teams that he actually beat?

also, longevity can never match degree of GREATNESS - lebron can never match 6/6 in 13 seasons, so he can never be as GREAT as Jordan... lebron has HALF the accomplishments in the same amount of time..

jordan wins the degree of greatness award (goat), while lebron can have the longevity award
.

Yup. The degree of greatness. Can't overlook that.

[poido123]

I find these Jordan threads boring, RBA's initial post was a good one though.



If you are lucky enough to avoid injury for that long, then you are exactly that, LUCKY.


Talking about it like it's some kind of accomplishment is kinda silly, but that's my opinion.


I have Shaq and Jordan's peak above Lebron, and even Bird. That isn't a knock on Lebron, but I use the path Lebron took against him and the whole colluding era we have now.


I have Lebron at number 5 all time and 5 spots up after last season, with only russell, jordan, shaq and kareem in front of him.


It's just different.

[KirbyPls]

The game has changed a bit since Jordan was at the peak of his powers (1988-97), so making a direct comparison probably isn't the best way to put together a take on this.

And, there are definitely some things that LeBron trumps Jordan in. James will go down as the NBA's ultimate ironman. The guy has now gone 13 seasons without a single serious injury. For his first seven years, he was carrying the weight of a franchise and a city, and guided it close to the top. That's putting up mind-boggling numbers and doing it playing 40 minutes a night, every night, and kicking it up a few notches starting in 2006 (his first playoff season). That alone was an amazing run of injury-less basketball played at its highest level.

But, his last six seasons have shown superhuman ability to play the longest possible season, every season, while doing a little bit of everything on the floor every night. He hasn't had to do it for quite as many minutes in regular seasons as he did during his first tour in Cleveland, but the playoffs have been amplified because he has played through The Finals every single season.

And still ... no breaks, no injuries. Amazing.

Of the great players of all-time, only Kareem is going to come close to LeBron in that particular department and I don't think that one will be close by the end of James' career.


Jordan and LeBron are similar in that they both happened to be athletic marvels with genius-level basketball IQs and incredible work ethics.

LeBron does a little bit of everything, while Jordan was the greatest pure scorer I've ever seen and one of the greatest perimeter defenders I've ever seen.


Where Jordan has an edge on any player that I've ever seen play the game is his combination of competitive spirit, confidence, and the way those things merged with reality.

Starting in about 1987, you could see that Jordan knew he was the best player in the world. He just didn't have the team yet to win a title, but it was obvious he was playing a brand of basketball no one had ever seen.

To be so freaking good on both ends and then to combine it with him being totally self-aware ... I think LeBron is to a place now where he is comfortable in his own skin and he knows what he is, which is one of the greatest all-around players of all-time. But, he didn't always have that mentality.

Despite all the hard work, incredible athleticism and wrecking ball of a body, it took him a good decade to find his comfort zone between scoring and playmaking and defense and all that.

It felt like Jordan came equipped with it and that absolute killer instinct that can't be taught or learned.


I've said it before and, for those who didn't live through the Jordan era, this is not something you can really feel when just watching old games that you know the outcome of in advance...

Once Jordan got his team in place, there was an aura of inevitability to watching him play that I've never experienced with any other athlete in any other team sport. I'm a lifelong Cavs fan and we had some really good teams during the Jordan years, but it almost felt ... pointless when we played the Bulls. And that's not something that you can feel when re-watching the game a decade later.

If it was close, there was going to come a time in the game where he was just going to will the team to a win. That wasn't always necessary. There was a lot of blowouts with those great teams and sometimes he might just come out and put 50 or 60 on you. But, regardless of his numbers or the kind of game he was having, if the game was big enough and it got close enough, he was eventually going to push them past you.


LeBron is highly likely to end up the second greatest player that I've ever seen, personally. But, I've never felt that thing, whatever it is, with any other player including LeBron ... and I've been in a position to root for and against him.

The fulcrum of ability meeting confidence and competitive spirit ... rooting against Jordan was an exercise in futility.

Hope this helped answer the question, though it's a rather vague response.

I saw MJ's career as well, and I think this is a great post. I don't like MJ, and LBJ's my favorite athlete ever, but I felt the same thing watching MJ play with a good squad. I do think LBJ has more all-around basketball talent, but Mj's scoring ability and confidence gives him the edge...unfortunately.

[KirbyPls]

Question though,

Do Russel's 11 rings in a mostly 8-team league count as much as Duncan's 5 rings in a 30 team league with players like Kobe, Lebron and Shaq standing in his way?

Results isn't everything imo.
There's context to it.

Duncan's titles are more impressive because of the competition he faced,
Russell didn't face nearly as much imo. :rolleyes:

:applause:

[AintNoSunshine]

I find these Jordan threads boring, RBA's initial post was a good one though.



If you are lucky enough to avoid injury for that long, then you are exactly that, LUCKY.


Talking about it like it's some kind of accomplishment is kinda silly, but that's my opinion.


I have Shaq and Jordan's peak above Lebron, and even Bird. That isn't a knock on Lebron, but I use the path Lebron took against him and the whole colluding era we have now.


I have Lebron at number 5 all time and 5 spots up after last season, with only russell, jordan, shaq and kareem in front of him.


It's just different.

And a stupid one.
Anything one can possibly achieve could be ascribed to luck.

[Dragonyeuw]

Great comments by RBA. I do have to say, since he was mentioned, that the only player since Jordan who I felt had a certain level of 'invincibility', or just feeling as though the outcome was inevitable, was 3peat Shaq.

Lebron is the ultimate 'when backed in a corner' player. I don't have the same sense of 'no matter what happens, he'll prevail' vibe with Lebron as I did with championship prime MJ or 3peat Shaq.

[tpols]

If you are lucky enough to avoid injury for that long, then you are exactly that, LUCKY.


certain body types are more prone to breaking down than others. bron's joints and proportions should be studied.. the man is simply unbreakable and a perfectly crafted piece of nature physically. i've never heard of anybody in any sport who can move and expend as much energy as lebron has w/o breaking down in any facet. he's like a car that can last for 2 million miles and needs an oil change every 100,000.

but i mean, if you're saying someone's lucky for being born into a super elite type of body then yea i guess, but thats how sports are. Thats how life is really..

[I know you are]

Six championships, higher scoring averages and cultural impact.

Lebron isn't that far behind, carrying some bad teams to the finals, and sometimes to rings, but he still isn't there.

I think 3-5 is a legit spot for Lebron currently.
What bad team did LeBron get a ring? 2012 and 2013 Heat were not bad teams, and neither was 2016 Cavs. 2015 Cavs were bad once they had injuries, but he didn't get them a ring.

[Da_Realist]

I think losing your father and best friend to a senseless murder took an enormous emotional toll on MJ. I know ISH is full of no-life, no self-esteem teenagers with no perspective but at some point real life needs to step in. I've seem people go through years of depression over stuff like this.

He took 2 years off because he wanted to prove something to his father -- that he could succeed playing baseball. It was his way of coping with his father's untimely death. It had nothing to do with durability or lack thereof When he played, he was an ironman. He hardly ever took plays off (hello Lebron) or sat out games (hello again) or mailed in playoff series (!). He's regarded as one of the greatest practice players. He gave 100% or near 100% all the time. Not to mention dealing with the physicality that marked his career. Durability is not just how long you play (which is impressive) but how hard and how consistent.

MJ lacked the focus to play at a high level so he retired because he was going through a crisis. I like that he respected the game enough to retire that go through the motions and put forth a half-ass effort.

[Sarcastic]

certain body types are more prone to breaking down than others. bron's joints and proportions should be studied.. the man is simply unbreakable and a perfectly crafted piece of nature physically. i've never heard of anybody in any sport who can move and expend as much energy as lebron has w/o breaking down in any facet. he's like a car that can last for 2 million miles and needs an oil change every 100,000.

but i mean, if you're saying someone's lucky for being born into a super elite type of body then yea i guess, but thats how sports are. Thats how life is really..

Cal Ripken? Lou Gehrig?

[Dragonyeuw]

I think losing your father and best friend to a senseless murder took an enormous emotional toll on MJ. I know ISH is full of no-life, no self-esteem teenagers with no perspective but at some point real life needs to step in. I've seem people go through years of depression over stuff like this.

He took 2 years off because he wanted to prove something to his father -- that he could succeed playing baseball. It was his way of coping with his father's untimely death. It had nothing to do with durability or lack thereof When he played, he was an ironman. He hardly ever took plays off (hello Lebron) or sat out games (hello again) or mailed in playoff series (!). He's regarded as one of the greatest practice players. He gave 100% or near 100% all the time. Not to mention dealing with the physicality that marked his career. Durability is not just how long you play (which is impressive) but how hard and how consistent.

MJ lacked the focus to play at a high level so he retired because he was going through a crisis. I like that he respected the game enough to retire that go through the motions and put forth a half-ass effort.

I recall from one of those old MJ highlight videos,that MJ asked Phil Jackson to come up with challenges for him. I'm not sure exactly why he didn't have the self-motivation at that stage, but that was before his father's passing. I think that unfortunate event is what pushed/solidified his decision to leave, along with all the heat he was taking due to books/articles being published regarding how he treated teammates and his extra-curricular habits( notably gambling).

[Da_Realist]

I recall from one of those old MJ highlight videos,that MJ asked Phil Jackson to come up with challenges for him. I'm not sure exactly why he didn't have the self-motivation at that stage, but that was before his father's passing. I think that unfortunate event is what pushed/solidified his decision to leave, along with all the heat he was taking due to books/articles being published regarding how he treated teammates and his extra-curricular habits( notably gambling).

That's true, too. MJ was a competitor and to be honest, he lapped the field by 93. Did you see Usain Bolt easily take the 400m last night? He slowed down near the end. That race wasn't a challenge to him at all. That was MJ in 93. Bolt could age another four years and maybe he would need to try his absolute best to win gold in 2020. A competitor needs a challenge. Making the Major Leagues was more of a challenge than lapping the NBA again. You're right, his father's death pushed him over the edge.

[Dragonyeuw]

That's true, too. MJ was a competitor and to be honest, he lapped the field by 93. Did you see Usain Bolt easily take the 400m last night? He slowed down near the end. That race wasn't a challenge to him at all. That was MJ in 93. Bolt could age another four years and maybe he would need to try his absolute best to win gold in 2020. A competitor needs a challenge. Making the Major Leagues was more of a challenge than lapping the NBA again. You're right, his father's death pushed him over the edge.

I recall from the same video that he was trying to get to Bird/Magic level( in terms of being regarded as a winner). One would think winning 3 in a row, something those 2 never achieved, would have provided sufficient challenge. Clearly by that point he was the undisputed consensus best player, so other mental factors were involved that went beyond basketball as to why he felt the challenge wasn't there for him.

I want to say the video is 'Above and Beyond', since that came out after the 96 season, so he would have been talking about pre-retirement events.

[RedBlackAttack]

Jordan never said he was physically drained - that's a lie.

He said he didn't have any more challenges and Phil said the same thing.. This is documented fact - there's youtube of all this, but there's no youtube or quote of him EVER saying he was physically drained..

Pippen had his best year in 1994, so he wasn't drained and neither would MJ.



How many straight Finals would Jordan make if he didn't retire, and/or only needed to defeat HALF (http://i.imgur.com/CIu6gDI.jpg) the 50-win teams that he actually beat?

also, longevity can never match degree of GREATNESS - lebron can never match 6/6 in 13 seasons, so he can never be as GREAT as Jordan... lebron has HALF the accomplishments in the same amount of time..

jordan wins the degree of greatness award (goat), while lebron can have the longevity award
.
You're right. I was remembering the reports at the time, not his actual retirement speech.

There are no YouTube videos of Jordan saying he was mentally or physically drained. That was, however, what was being reported by sources with the team to the media. Are those always accurate? Certainly not. But, Jordan very rarely opened the curtain surrounding his personal life and he was such a competitive person, admitting what could be perceived as a weakness (although it really wasn't) would have been out-of-character.

Here ia the Chicago Tribune article at the time of the retirement:


A sense of career burnout lingered over Jordan's decision, based on what Bulls insiders are saying.

...

But an undercurrent led many close to the Bulls to wonder whether something was up.

Jordan needed a minor operation on his foot after problems last season, but kept putting it off. The notion in the Bulls organization was that Jordan just didn't want to go through an entire training camp; he didn't last season, yet the team still won the title.


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993-10-06/sports/9310060153_1_bulls-owner-jerry-reinsdorf-general-manager-jerry-krause-bulls-insiders

But, whatever the true reasons were for Jordan's decision to retire the first time, it doesn't really even matter in this context. James has never suffered a major injury and never missed significant time for any reason, and he's now going into his 14th season and trying to make his 7th straight Finals appearance. That's a level of durabiliy while playing at the highest level that the league has ever seen, at least in the modern era.

Jordan also had incredible durability. Giving credit to James for something does nothing to diminish Jordan, unless this is just a p!ssing contest where you want me to say that Jordan is better at everything than any player who has ever lived, which I won't do. Saying he is the unquestioned GOAT is about as far as any reasonable person should go.


I'm pretty surprised anyone is making a big deal about me giving LeBron credit for being crazy durable after I gushed about Jordan and tried to explain as best I could why he's the best ever and that isn't likely to change any time soon.

Considering the fact that the guy routinely put an arrow through my heart, I still admire his game as much or more than anyone on here, because I love the game first and foremost.

[GimmeThat]

guess when was the last time that rebounding is an individual effort was taught in this game we all love

[Dragonyeuw]

Jordan ended the 93 season by playing 78 games, averaging the most points(32.6) and rebounds( 6.6) since 90,the most steals(2.8) since 90, the most minutes(39.3) since 90( notice a pattern?). If there was any physical drain, it certainly didn't show on-court. Take away his father's murder and other factors, he was primed for another great year in 94. I'd go as far as to say that if MJ duplicated his 93 level( he was 31, why not), Pippen, Grant and BJ being the best versions of those players, AND Kukoc off the bench? Easily the best of the Bulls title teams IMO.

[ClipperRevival]

I think losing your father and best friend to a senseless murder took an enormous emotional toll on MJ. I know ISH is full of no-life, no self-esteem teenagers with no perspective but at some point real life needs to step in. I've seem people go through years of depression over stuff like this.

He took 2 years off because he wanted to prove something to his father -- that he could succeed playing baseball. It was his way of coping with his father's untimely death. It had nothing to do with durability or lack thereof When he played, he was an ironman. He hardly ever took plays off (hello Lebron) or sat out games (hello again) or mailed in playoff series (!). He's regarded as one of the greatest practice players. He gave 100% or near 100% all the time. Not to mention dealing with the physicality that marked his career. Durability is not just how long you play (which is impressive) but how hard and how consistent.

MJ lacked the focus to play at a high level so he retired because he was going through a crisis. I like that he respected the game enough to retire that go through the motions and put forth a half-ass effort.

:applause:

This is why MJ fans love MJ. Because he brought his best every time he stepped on the court. I think deep inside, that's what humans naturally respect: someone who always gives their best effort no matter the situation. We also hate quitters or people trying to look for the easy way out. That's why a lot of old school fans don't completely respect LeBron (flopping, colluding, disappearing because the lights were too bright, etc.).

[ClipperRevival]

Jordan ended the 93 season by playing 78 games, averaging the most points(32.6) and rebounds( 6.6) since 90,the most steals(2.8) since 90, the most minutes(39.3) since 90( notice a pattern?). If there was any physical drain, it certainly didn't show on-court. Take away his father's murder and other factors, he was primed for another great year in 94. I'd go as far as to say that if MJ duplicated his 93 level( he was 31, why not), Pippen, Grant and BJ being the best versions of those players, AND Kukoc off the bench? Easily the best of the Bulls title teams IMO.

Agreed about 1993-94. That could've been the best Bulls team yet. MJ not quite peak but still in his prime. Pip and Grant dead in their primes along with the addition of Kukoc and Kerr.

Although you can still argue Rodman, prime Kukoc and Harper (1995-96) Bulls still were better. But when you consider MJ was past his prime and so was Pip, I would rather go with the hypothetical 1993-94 team.

[Da_Realist]

You're right. I was remembering the reports at the time, not his actual retirement speech.

There are no YouTube videos of Jordan saying he was mentally or physically drained. That was, however, what was being reported by sources with the team to the media. Are those always accurate? Certainly not. But, Jordan very rarely opened the curtain surrounding his personal life and he was such a competitive person, admitting what could be perceived as a weakness (although it really wasn't).

Here ia the Chicago Tribune article at the time of the retirement:


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993-10-06/sports/9310060153_1_bulls-owner-jerry-reinsdorf-general-manager-jerry-krause-bulls-insiders

But, whatever the true reasons jwere for Jordan's decision to retire the first time, it doesn't really even matter in this context. James has never suffered a major injury and never missed significant time for any reason, and he's now going into his 14th season and trying to make his 7th straight Finals appearance. That's a level of durabiliy while playing at the highest level that the league has ever seen, at least in the modern era.

Jordan also had incredible durability. Giving credit to James for something does nothing to diminish Jordan, unless this is just a p!ssing contest where you want me to say that Jordan is better at everything than any player who has ever lived, which I won't do. Saying he is the unquestioned GOAT is about as far as any reasonable person should go.


I'm pretty surprised anyone is making a big deal about me giving LeBron credit for being crazy durable after I gushed about Jordan and tried to explain as best I could why he's the best ever and that isn't likely to change any time soon.

Considering the fact that the guy routinely put an arrow through my heart, I still admire his game as much or more than anyone on here, because I love the game first and foremost.

I think you made some good points. And you were fair. Much respect for that. Your last sentence explains why. Because I love the game first and foremost . We all have our different opinions and we rate players based on different things but there are some things that should be obvious. You were honest in laying down your hometown bias and giving a fair opinion.

Because of that honesty, we could learn from our differences and maybe even change them. At the very least, respect the other point of view. That's opposed to the obvious trolling that only causes a shit storm where you're refuting stupid points and by the end of the day no one learned a damn thing or gained a new perspective because it's not about learning and understanding, it's about being stupid.

Only on ISH are people proud to be stupid. There's a pervert that posted an inappropriate picture of Steph's daughter and people found that funny. Another idiot uses MJ's dad as his profile pick to mock his murder. ISH used to be a nice place to discuss basketball with some good minds. Remember dejordan, gts, Hands of Iron? Many more. Now it's just a bunch of kids kicking sand in everyone's eyes. What a waste.

[Dragonyeuw]

Only on ISH are people proud to be stupid. There's a pervert that posted an inappropriate picture of Steph's daughter and people found that funny. Another idiot uses MJ's dad as his profile pick to mock his murder. ISH used to be a nice place to discuss basketball with some good minds. Remember dejordan, gts, Hands of Iron? Many more. Now it's just a bunch of kids kicking sand in everyone's eyes. What a waste.

And seemingly encouraged to be.

[Dragonyeuw]

Agreed about 1993-94. That could've been the best Bulls team yet. MJ not quite peak but still in his prime. Pip and Grant dead in their primes along with the addition of Kukoc and Kerr.

Although you can still argue Rodman, prime Kukoc and Harper (1995-96) Bulls still were better. But when you consider MJ was past his prime and so was Pip, I would rather go with the hypothetical 1993-94 team.

Yeah, I don't know. I like the first 3peat team's athleticism especially defensively a little more. Certainly Rodman brought an unparalleled rebounding dynamic to that team, but he was basically AWOL on offense. The MJ/Pippen/Grant were a younger, more athletic defensive trio( earning the nickname Dobermans), and any edge with Rodman's rebounding and 'prime' Kukoc I believe is offset by prime MJ and Pippen. And Grant was good for 12-15 points, you at least weren't playing 4 on 5 on offense like with Rodman.

[AirFederer]

I think you made some good points. And you were fair. Much respect for that. Your last sentence explains why. Because I love the game first and foremost . We all have our different opinions and we rate players based on different things but there are some things that should be obvious. You were honest in laying down your hometown bias and giving a fair opinion.

Because of that honesty, we could learn from our differences and maybe even change them. At the very least, respect the other point of view. That's opposed to the obvious trolling that only causes a shit storm where you're refuting stupid points and by the end of the day no one learned a damn thing or gained a new perspective because it's not about learning and understanding, it's about being stupid.

Only on ISH are people proud to be stupid. There's a pervert that posted an inappropriate picture of Steph's daughter and people found that funny. Another idiot uses MJ's dad as his profile pick to mock his murder. ISH used to be a nice place to discuss basketball with some good minds. Remember dejordan, gts, Hands of Iron? Many more. Now it's just a bunch of kids kicking sand in everyone's eyes. What a waste.

:cheers: :applause:

[RedBlackAttack]

I think you made some good points. And you were fair. Much respect for that. Your last sentence explains why. Because I love the game first and foremost . We all have our different opinions and we rate players based on different things but there are some things that should be obvious. You were honest in laying down your hometown bias and giving a fair opinion.

Because of that honesty, we could learn from our differences and maybe even change them. At the very least, respect the other point of view. That's opposed to the obvious trolling that only causes a shit storm where you're refuting stupid points and by the end of the day no one learned a damn thing or gained a new perspective because it's not about learning and understanding, it's about being stupid.

Only on ISH are people proud to be stupid. There's a pervert that posted an inappropriate picture of Steph's daughter and people found that funny. Another idiot uses MJ's dad as his profile pick to mock his murder. ISH used to be a nice place to discuss basketball with some good minds. Remember dejordan, gts, Hands of Iron? Many more. Now it's just a bunch of kids kicking sand in everyone's eyes. What a waste.
We're on the same page.

Lots of good takes in this thread including your points. This is the reason some of us continue to gravitate toward ISH even after all these years (I go way back into the EZ Board days). You have to sift through some garbage, but threads like this make all that worth it.

[RedBlackAttack]

Yeah, I don't know. I like the first 3peat team's athleticism especially defensively a little more. Certainly Rodman brought an unparalleled rebounding dynamic to that team, but he was basically AWOL on offense. The MJ/Pippen/Grant were a younger, more athletic defensive trio( earning the nickname Dobermans), and any edge with Rodman's rebounding and 'prime' Kukoc I believe is offset by prime MJ and Pippen. And Grant was good for 12-15 points, you at least weren't playing 4 on 5 on offense like with Rodman.
I thought the '92 team was the best of the Bulls. Yes, the Knicks pushed them in the second round, but I never really felt that the Bulls were being threatened. The Knicks won that huge Game 6, but Game 7 was a blowout. I think they caught the Bulls off-guard a little early in the series with their physicality. But, like I described in my initial post in this thread, I never sensed they had much of a chance.

The Bulls played top notch competition in The Finals, too, in a really, really good Blazers team that could have easily won a title in a different year. And, Chicago was just like, "nah, this isn't happening fellas" after the Blazers upset them in Game 2.

Yeah, when I think of prime Jordan, I go to 1992. By that time he had it all figured out.

[Screamin A Smit]

Jordan hasn't won a ring in 20 years wow, some thing else

[Da_Realist]

I thought the '92 team was the best of the Bulls. Yes, the Knicks pushed them in the second round, but I never really felt that the Bulls were being threatened. The Knicks won that huge Game 6, but Game 7 was a blowout. I think they caught the Bulls off-guard a little early in the series with their physicality. But, like I described in my initial post in this thread, I never sensed they had much of a chance.

Game 1 really set the tone. Oakley with the monster body slam on Cartwright.

92 was the last time we saw Pippen pushed around. He bulked up after that and started dishing some serious punishment himself.

[RedBlackAttack]

Game 1 really set the tone. Oakley with the monster body slam on Cartwright.

92 was the last time we saw Pippen pushed around. He bulked up after that and started dishing some serious punishment himself.
That's true. I remember Xavier McDaniel and Oakley going after Grant and Pippen in Game 2 right off the bat, too. Xavier took a serious swing with his elbow at either Grant or Pippen early in the game...

They were trying to be the Bad Boy Pistons 2.0, but the Bulls had seen it before.

Great memories of the old guard of the NBA. Oak and X-Man were a ruthless tandem. :oldlol:

[Poetry]

“But I think the greatest thing about MJ was that he never was afraid to fail. And I think that’s why he succeeded so much — because he was never afraid of what anybody ever said about him...Never afraid to miss the game-winning shot, never afraid to turn the ball over. Never afraid...That’s one of my biggest obstacles...I’m afraid of failure. I want to succeed so bad that I become afraid of failing."

- LeBron James

[Nuff Said]

Question though,

Do Russel's 11 rings in a mostly 8-team league count as much as Duncan's 5 rings in a 30 team league with players like Kobe, Lebron and Shaq standing in his way?

Results isn't everything imo.
There's context to it.

Duncan's titles are more impressive because of the competition he faced,
Russell didn't face nearly as much imo. :rolleyes:
I don't think it's fair to downgrade a player due to his competition. If we put Shaq in his prime back to the 60's would we then say"well he was good but his competition was weak so he wasn't THAT good." A great player is supposed to dominate. And in a league with some highly regarded players such as wilt, west, etc to still manage to win 11 damn rings is impressive nonetheless.

[SamuraiSWISH]

93 Bulls were the best.

Coasted during regular season. MJ and Scottie were burnt after two chip runs plus Olympics.

But Grant was better. BJ improved and was a better defender than Paxson. While still providing the same quality spot up shooting. And Paxson was better off the bench himself.

They then proceeded to beat the best two teams in the league, with completely different styles.

The Knicks, coming back down 0-2, who were big, tough, physical and one of the best defensive teams ever. A 60 win team.

Then they beat the high octane offense in the Suns, who also won 60 plus games. Taking every bit of volume scoring effort from Mike for the entire series.

That team faced the toughest obstacles and by far showed the most character, as well as will to win. First team to three peat since Russell's Celtics.

If Jordan didn't retire however? 94 team would've been the 96 team on steroids. MJ would still be in his prime. Peak Pippen, peak Grant, peak BJ. Add on the shooters off the bench in Kukoc and Kerr? It's over.

[SamuraiSWISH]

“But I think the greatest thing about MJ was that he never was afraid to fail. And I think that’s why he succeeded so much — because he was never afraid of what anybody ever said about him...Never afraid to miss the game-winning shot, never afraid to turn the ball over. Never afraid...That’s one of my biggest obstacles...I’m afraid of failure. I want to succeed so bad that I become afraid of failing."

- LeBron James
Like a lot of millennials ... Too self aware. Too meta. Second guess too much. Tentative. No more breeds of Just Do It.

[CTbasketball92]

Like a lot of millennials ... Too self aware. Too meta. Second guess too much. Tentative. No more breeds of Just Do It.

So true dude, but I think we're also able to live with our decisions a bit more and maybe a bit less ostensibly prejudiced so ... that's cool right? #Team92

[nightprowler10]

“But I think the greatest thing about MJ was that he never was afraid to fail. And I think that’s why he succeeded so much — because he was never afraid of what anybody ever said about him...Never afraid to miss the game-winning shot, never afraid to turn the ball over. Never afraid...That’s one of my biggest obstacles...I’m afraid of failure. I want to succeed so bad that I become afraid of failing."

- LeBron James
Well that's not an easy thing to say about yourself, so I definitely respect that. But the fact that this quote exists kind of proves his point. He thinks about his legacy way too much. This kind of a thing can definitely make you lose focus in the big moments.

In those moments, you gotta know how to trust yourself. If you succeed, great! If you don't, you learned a valuable lesson. But you let those thoughts enter your mind about what's riding on you doing it right, and then you've lost the focus you sorely needed to finish the job.

[Paul George 24]

Six championships, higher scoring averages and cultural impact.

Lebron isn't that far behind, carrying some bad teams to the finals, and sometimes to rings, but he still isn't there.

I think 3-5 is a legit spot for Lebron currently.
Lebron was 10 levels better skills than lechoke ever dream :lol

[Da_Realist]

Well that's not an easy thing to say about yourself, so I definitely respect that. But the fact that this quote exists kind of proves his point. He thinks about his legacy way too much. This kind of a thing can definitely make you lose focus in the big moments.


In those moments, you gotta know how to trust yourself. If you succeed, great! If you don't, you learned a valuable lesson. But you let those thoughts enter your mind about what's riding on you doing it right, and then you've lost the focus you sorely needed to finish the job.


The focus on legacy has ruined the NBA. For the players, it's not about beating the players on the other side of the court, it's about "chasing ghosts". They play with one eye on the scoreboard and the other eye on the stat sheet and their mind focused on the legacy roll call (accolades). Ultimate love/respect for the game and total desire to prop legacy don't match up. It's not about the game they are playing or the championship they are competing for, it's about the ultimate game -- racking up enough stats and accolades to be the GOAT. It's problematic for a few reasons:


1) The focus on being GOAT is often at odds with winning the game the right way. Sometimes it's best to pull back. The players, as Lebron just admitted, have become more focused on the game of becoming GOAT than the game of basketball. Players are too self-aware of their legacy which leads to becoming either gun-shy or trigger-happy in the clutch (instead of just being smart and doing what the situation calls for) because every game carries the weight of their legacy. Which leads to...

2) Players have to be willing to reinvent themselves to adjust to every game situation. Lebron with no jumpshot or post game or desire to learn what to do without the ball in his hands is an example of a player not willing to take a few steps back for the big picture. He has to grab every rebound. Has to make every pass. Has to efficient. Because he knows his numbers plus a few championships is his ticket to GOAT-hood. Meanwhile he has glaring holes in his game (already mentioned) and his lack of fundamentals...makes his game ugly (to me). Not willing to sacrifice his numbers to be a better player. Look at MJ in 87 then again in 89 then again in 92. He looks like 3 different players. And that's before he reinvented himself before the 96 season.

3) Players are not as willing to win ugly. This is really the point where you can see whether a players loves his legacy more than winning the game. Today's players will sulk or even give up if they can't generate the numbers to enhance their legacy. Or they will use every opportunity to pad their stats to cover up a bad game. They know the fans and media will only care about the boxscore so that gets the focus. This way the star player can avoid the scrutiny and in a subtle way pass the blame to his teammates (Hey I did all I could do!). But a quick glance at the game will show non-activity and lack of focus during crucial moments -- all packaged and covered up by the amazing box score. That's also why today's players are so passive-aggressive, insecure and overly defensive -- because they aren't used to dealing with criticism head on. But it's the criticism and the harsh self-evaluation that provides the pressure to force a player to alter his game or learn to not give a f*ck (which is exactly what Lebron gave MJ credit for in the Poetry quote above).

Many times we saw MJ pour it on in a game the Bulls ultimately lost. Most of those games are forgotten (except for the 63 point game in Boston) but that showed a die-trying attitude that actually was the reason he won so many games they shouldn't have won. Today's players, generally speaking, fall back and start to collect stats in order to protect themselves from the fallout (and keep their legacy in check).

Bottom line: today's players love their legacy more than the game.

The fans: We are living in a world where the casual fan rules the game. Basketball used to be for hard core guys willing to learn strategy, fundamentals, mentality, and other stuff that actually relates to life. And they (we) were willing to sit at the feet of seasoned guys to watch this stuff and ask questions to learn about the intricacies of the game. We hated when mom and sister tuned in during Mother's Day yelling at the screen about something they didn't understand because it was "cool" to watch on that day.

But now the popularity of the NBA and the dumbing down of the product has piqued the interest of a multitude of casual fans who aren't willing to sit and shut up until they learn enough to talk about what they know. They have basketball-reference and highlight videos and an internet forum. There are guys on here that have been watching for over a decade and are still casual fans that know nothing aside from crunching numbers and counting accolades because they were experts (in their own minds) the minute they started watching basketball.

The media: People die. And the world is changing. The hard core guys that provided the scrutiny and the criticism that actually created diamonds out of rocks are long gone. Replaced by suck-ups that don't know any more than today's casual fans. Instead of being the voice of reason, they coddle today's players and talk about how unfair it all is. "So-and-so did all he could, get off his back." They're nothing more than ISH-ers that are actually paid to write their opinions. They're cheerleaders. We live in a facebook world where we want everyone to like us. Generally speaking, of course.

[andgar923]

The focus on legacy has ruined the NBA. For the players, it's not about beating the players on the other side of the court, it's about "chasing ghosts". They play with one eye on the scoreboard and the other eye on the stat sheet and their mind focused on the legacy roll call (accolades). Ultimate love/respect for the game and total desire to prop legacy don't match up. It's not about the game they are playing or the championship they are competing for, it's about the ultimate game -- racking up enough stats and accolades to be the GOAT. It's problematic for a few reasons:


1) The focus on being GOAT is often at odds with winning the game the right way. Sometimes it's best to pull back. The players, as Lebron just admitted, have become more focused on the game of becoming GOAT than the game of basketball. Players are too self-aware of their legacy which leads to becoming either gun-shy or trigger-happy in the clutch (instead of just being smart and doing what the situation calls for) because every game carries the weight of their legacy. Which leads to...

2) Players have to be willing to reinvent themselves to adjust to every game situation. Lebron with no jumpshot or post game or desire to learn what to do without the ball in his hands is an example of a player not willing to take a few steps back for the big picture. He has to grab every rebound. Has to make every pass. Has to efficient. Because he knows his numbers plus a few championships is his ticket to GOAT-hood. Meanwhile he has glaring holes in his game (already mentioned) and his lack of fundamentals...makes his game ugly (to me). Not willing to sacrifice his numbers to be a better player. Look at MJ in 87 then again in 89 then again in 92. He looks like 3 different players. And that's before he reinvented himself before the 96 season.

3) Players are not as willing to win ugly. This is really the point where you can see whether a players loves his legacy more than winning the game. Today's players will sulk or even give up if they can't generate the numbers to enhance their legacy. Or they will use every opportunity to pad their stats to cover up a bad game. They know the fans and media will only care about the boxscore so that gets the focus. This way the star player can avoid the scrutiny and in a subtle way pass the blame to his teammates (Hey I did all I could do!). But a quick glance at the game will show non-activity and lack of focus during crucial moments -- all packaged and covered up by the amazing box score. That's also why today's players are so passive-aggressive, insecure and overly defensive -- because they aren't used to dealing with criticism head on. But it's the criticism and the harsh self-evaluation that provides the pressure to force a player to alter his game or learn to not give a f*ck (which is exactly what Lebron gave MJ credit for in the Poetry quote above).

Many times we saw MJ pour it on in a game the Bulls ultimately lost. Most of those games are forgotten (except for the 63 point game in Boston) but that showed a die-trying attitude that actually was the reason he won so many games they shouldn't have won. Today's players, generally speaking, fall back and start to collect stats in order to protect themselves from the fallout (and keep their legacy in check).

Bottom line: today's players love their legacy more than the game.

The fans: We are living in a world where the casual fan rules the game. Basketball used to be for hard core guys willing to learn strategy, fundamentals, mentality, and other stuff that actually relates to life. And they (we) were willing to sit at the feet of seasoned guys to watch this stuff and ask questions to learn about the intricacies of the game. We hated when mom and sister tuned in during Mother's Day yelling at the screen about something they didn't understand because it was "cool" to watch on that day.

But now the popularity of the NBA and the dumbing down of the product has piqued the interest of a multitude of casual fans who aren't willing to sit and shut up until they learn enough to talk about what they know. They have basketball-reference and highlight videos and an internet forum. There are guys on here that have been watching for over a decade and are still casual fans that know nothing aside from crunching numbers and counting accolades because they were experts (in their own minds) the minute they started watching basketball.

The media: People die. And the world is changing. The hard core guys that provided the scrutiny and the criticism that actually created diamonds out of rocks are long gone. Replaced by suck-ups that don't know any more than today's casual fans. Instead of being the voice of reason, they coddle today's players and talk about how unfair it all is. "So-and-so did all he could, get off his back." They're nothing more than ISH-ers that are actually paid to write their opinions. They're cheerleaders. We live in a facebook world where we want everyone to like us. Generally speaking, of course.

:applause:

[eeeeeebro]

i can end this in one move.. Jordan posts lebron up - he fakes left he fakes right - step back (FADE away) - perfect RELEASE. ITS THE UNBLOCKABLE PERFECT SHOT AND ITS THERE ALL DAY LONG.

[eeeeeebro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8suQV8CnNw

[GimmeThat]

the amount of people who do the dirties at the Cavs arena is probably similar to the amount of hot dogs being sold at the Bulls arena

[ClipperRevival]

The focus on legacy has ruined the NBA. For the players, it's not about beating the players on the other side of the court, it's about "chasing ghosts". They play with one eye on the scoreboard and the other eye on the stat sheet and their mind focused on the legacy roll call (accolades). Ultimate love/respect for the game and total desire to prop legacy don't match up. It's not about the game they are playing or the championship they are competing for, it's about the ultimate game -- racking up enough stats and accolades to be the GOAT. It's problematic for a few reasons:


1) The focus on being GOAT is often at odds with winning the game the right way. Sometimes it's best to pull back. The players, as Lebron just admitted, have become more focused on the game of becoming GOAT than the game of basketball. Players are too self-aware of their legacy which leads to becoming either gun-shy or trigger-happy in the clutch (instead of just being smart and doing what the situation calls for) because every game carries the weight of their legacy. Which leads to...

2) Players have to be willing to reinvent themselves to adjust to every game situation. Lebron with no jumpshot or post game or desire to learn what to do without the ball in his hands is an example of a player not willing to take a few steps back for the big picture. He has to grab every rebound. Has to make every pass. Has to efficient. Because he knows his numbers plus a few championships is his ticket to GOAT-hood. Meanwhile he has glaring holes in his game (already mentioned) and his lack of fundamentals...makes his game ugly (to me). Not willing to sacrifice his numbers to be a better player. Look at MJ in 87 then again in 89 then again in 92. He looks like 3 different players. And that's before he reinvented himself before the 96 season.

3) Players are not as willing to win ugly. This is really the point where you can see whether a players loves his legacy more than winning the game. Today's players will sulk or even give up if they can't generate the numbers to enhance their legacy. Or they will use every opportunity to pad their stats to cover up a bad game. They know the fans and media will only care about the boxscore so that gets the focus. This way the star player can avoid the scrutiny and in a subtle way pass the blame to his teammates (Hey I did all I could do!). But a quick glance at the game will show non-activity and lack of focus during crucial moments -- all packaged and covered up by the amazing box score. That's also why today's players are so passive-aggressive, insecure and overly defensive -- because they aren't used to dealing with criticism head on. But it's the criticism and the harsh self-evaluation that provides the pressure to force a player to alter his game or learn to not give a f*ck (which is exactly what Lebron gave MJ credit for in the Poetry quote above).

Many times we saw MJ pour it on in a game the Bulls ultimately lost. Most of those games are forgotten (except for the 63 point game in Boston) but that showed a die-trying attitude that actually was the reason he won so many games they shouldn't have won. Today's players, generally speaking, fall back and start to collect stats in order to protect themselves from the fallout (and keep their legacy in check).

Bottom line: today's players love their legacy more than the game.

The fans: We are living in a world where the casual fan rules the game. Basketball used to be for hard core guys willing to learn strategy, fundamentals, mentality, and other stuff that actually relates to life. And they (we) were willing to sit at the feet of seasoned guys to watch this stuff and ask questions to learn about the intricacies of the game. We hated when mom and sister tuned in during Mother's Day yelling at the screen about something they didn't understand because it was "cool" to watch on that day.

But now the popularity of the NBA and the dumbing down of the product has piqued the interest of a multitude of casual fans who aren't willing to sit and shut up until they learn enough to talk about what they know. They have basketball-reference and highlight videos and an internet forum. There are guys on here that have been watching for over a decade and are still casual fans that know nothing aside from crunching numbers and counting accolades because they were experts (in their own minds) the minute they started watching basketball.

The media: People die. And the world is changing. The hard core guys that provided the scrutiny and the criticism that actually created diamonds out of rocks are long gone. Replaced by suck-ups that don't know any more than today's casual fans. Instead of being the voice of reason, they coddle today's players and talk about how unfair it all is. "So-and-so did all he could, get off his back." They're nothing more than ISH-ers that are actually paid to write their opinions. They're cheerleaders. We live in a facebook world where we want everyone to like us. Generally speaking, of course.

Yup. After watching MJ and how he carried himself, it's hard for old skool dudes to completely respect LeBron. The lack of mastery of the basic fundamentals (footwork, post up game, and mid-range game), the flopping, the colluding, the Twitter diva stuff and the shying away in big moments, etc. I am actually surprised LeBron did what he did in these finals as it was going to script through the first 4 games. But he has shown he can wake up sometimes when backed into a corner but why can't he be in killer mode at all times like MJ was? I.e. LeBron didn't maximize his talents.

It's just hard to have a DEEP respect for LeBron if you watched MJ too. I mean I recognize he is a borderline top 5 all time great and his impact but his mentality always rubbed me the wrong way.

[tpols]

Yup. After watching MJ and how he carried himself, it's hard for old skool dudes to completely respect LeBron. The lack of mastery of the basic fundamentals (footwork, post up game, and mid-range game), the flopping, the colluding, the Twitter diva stuff and the shying away in big moments, etc. I am actually surprised LeBron did what he did in these finals as it was going to script through the first 4 games. But he has shown he can wake up sometimes when backed into a corner but why can't he be in killer mode at all times like MJ was? I.e. LeBron didn't maximize his talents.

It's just hard to have a DEEP respect for LeBron if you watched MJ too. I mean I recognize he is a borderline top 5 all time great and his impact but his mentality always rubbed me the wrong way.

because that "killer mode" you saw from lebron after the first four games that went according to script wasnt just some lever he pulled that magically gave him Jordan level willpower.. LeBron's (and kyrie to an extent) great performances were a result of the rim protection for Golden State disintegrating and giving him much better looks than he was getting in those first four games.

[Dragonyeuw]

I thought the '92 team was the best of the Bulls. Yes, the Knicks pushed them in the second round, but I never really felt that the Bulls were being threatened. The Knicks won that huge Game 6, but Game 7 was a blowout. I think they caught the Bulls off-guard a little early in the series with their physicality. But, like I described in my initial post in this thread, I never sensed they had much of a chance.

The Bulls played top notch competition in The Finals, too, in a really, really good Blazers team that could have easily won a title in a different year. And, Chicago was just like, "nah, this isn't happening fellas" after the Blazers upset them in Game 2.

Yeah, when I think of prime Jordan, I go to 1992. By that time he had it all figured out.
As do I, I've always felt that was the best Bulls team.

[GimmeThat]

3 rings in 5 years

[feyki]

Question though,

Do Russel's 11 rings in a mostly 8-team league count as much as Duncan's 5 rings in a 30 team league with players like Kobe, Lebron and Shaq standing in his way?

Results isn't everything imo.
There's context to it.

Duncan's titles are more impressive because of the competition he faced,
Russell didn't face nearly as much imo. :rolleyes:

Wilt-Oscar-Elgin-West-Pettit >>>>>>> Shaq,Lebron,Kobe,Dirk,KG

And 60's were tougher than 00's , more teams means more watered down league ; it's simple . But people trying to act like choose easy way and ignore what happened back then .

Russell faced Hagan-Pettit and stacked Hawks , Elgin-West duo , Wilt with 3-4 Hof , and Oscar with 2-3 all star .

And yea , Russell faced weak competition :rolleyes: .

[Hey Yo]

Yup. After watching MJ and how he carried himself, it's hard for old skool dudes to completely respect LeBron. The lack of mastery of the basic fundamentals (footwork, post up game, and mid-range game)
So others like Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, were all masters of the 3 basic fundamentals or was it just MJ who was "the master" of all 3? If not, do old skool dudes still respect the ones I mentioned?[/QUOTE]

[gigantes]

The game has changed a bit since Jordan was at the peak of his powers (1988-97), so making a direct comparison probably isn't the best way to put together a take on this.

And, there are definitely some things that LeBron trumps Jordan in. James will go down as the NBA's ultimate ironman. The guy has now gone 13 seasons without a single serious injury. For his first seven years, he was carrying the weight of a franchise and a city, and guided it close to the top. That's putting up mind-boggling numbers and doing it playing 40 minutes a night, every night, and kicking it up a few notches starting in 2006 (his first playoff season). That alone was an amazing run of injury-less basketball played at its highest level.

But, his last six seasons have shown superhuman ability to play the longest possible season, every season, while doing a little bit of everything on the floor every night. He hasn't had to do it for quite as many minutes in regular seasons as he did during his first tour in Cleveland, but the playoffs have been amplified because he has played through The Finals every single season.

And still ... no breaks, no injuries. Amazing.

Of the great players of all-time, only Kareem is going to come close to LeBron in that particular department and I don't think that one will be close by the end of James' career.


Jordan and LeBron are similar in that they both happened to be athletic marvels with genius-level basketball IQs and incredible work ethics.

LeBron does a little bit of everything, while Jordan was the greatest pure scorer I've ever seen and one of the greatest perimeter defenders I've ever seen.


Where Jordan has an edge on any player that I've ever seen play the game is his combination of competitive spirit, confidence, and the way those things merged with reality.

Starting in about 1987, you could see that Jordan knew he was the best player in the world. He just didn't have the team yet to win a title, but it was obvious he was playing a brand of basketball no one had ever seen.

To be so freaking good on both ends and then to combine it with him being totally self-aware ... I think LeBron is to a place now where he is comfortable in his own skin and he knows what he is, which is one of the greatest all-around players of all-time. But, he didn't always have that mentality.

Despite all the hard work, incredible athleticism and wrecking ball of a body, it took him a good decade to find his comfort zone between scoring and playmaking and defense and all that.

It felt like Jordan came equipped with it and that absolute killer instinct that can't be taught or learned.


I've said it before and, for those who didn't live through the Jordan era, this is not something you can really feel when just watching old games that you know the outcome of in advance...

Once Jordan got his team in place, there was an aura of inevitability to watching him play that I've never experienced with any other athlete in any other team sport. I'm a lifelong Cavs fan and we had some really good teams during the Jordan years, but it almost felt ... pointless when we played the Bulls. And that's not something that you can feel when re-watching the game a decade later.

If it was close, there was going to come a time in the game where he was just going to will the team to a win. That wasn't always necessary. There was a lot of blowouts with those great teams and sometimes he might just come out and put 50 or 60 on you. But, regardless of his numbers or the kind of game he was having, if the game was big enough and it got close enough, he was eventually going to push them past you.


LeBron is highly likely to end up the second greatest player that I've ever seen, personally. But, I've never felt that thing, whatever it is, with any other player including LeBron ... and I've been in a position to root for and against him.

The fulcrum of ability meeting confidence and competitive spirit ... rooting against Jordan was an exercise in futility.

Hope this helped answer the question, though it's a rather vague response.
amazing post.

with a little stat-padding, this could be and should be a featured article on the site.

[SexSymbol]

He was stronger, more athletic and faster, more accurate from everywhere on the floor aside from 3pt, better post up player, better defender by far, especially in the playoffs, had at least twice as strong as a character, for the size was a better rebounder and for the time he handled the ball at least as good of a passer if not better due to making less mistakes.
MJ had a vastly superior offensive court awareness and there was even a bigger gap defense wise.
This isn't competition, rate lebron against guys like kobe, duncan, shaq, magic, but he has nothing on MJ, Russell, Kareem. Not even in the same sentence, and throughout last year I've found a lot of things to like about the man, but it's laughable to put him in the same sentence.

[gigantes]

Yup. After watching MJ and how he carried himself, it's hard for old skool dudes to completely respect LeBron. The lack of mastery of the basic fundamentals (footwork, post up game, and mid-range game), the flopping, the colluding, the Twitter diva stuff and the shying away in big moments, etc...
should i be surprised or unsurprised that ppl on ISH don't know what the word "colluding" means?

there was nothing illegal or unethical about what the superfriends did. for something that actually broke league rules, see the t-wolves / joe smith case.

also, don't forget that jordan had one of the greatest coaches in history train him on fundamentals. lebron went straight to the NBA as a teenager and carried his team immediately.

[ClipperRevival]

So others like Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, were all masters of the 3 basic fundamentals or was it just MJ who was "the master" of all 3? If not, do old skool dudes still respect the ones I mentioned?

KAJ was a devastating post player, which requires great footwork. Bigs don't really need a midrange game but he drained his skyhook 15 feet in so technically, he had that down too.

Both Magic and Bird were also great in the post and you could run your offense through them. They could play with their back to the basket and create for themselves or others. They were also solid midrange shooters (Bird was amazing).

Russell focused on defense, rebounding and outlet passing. He is viewed more as the ultimate winner than more for his skills.

Bron's impact and all time rankings can't be denied. Few did it better than him. But when I see the flaws he had in the basic, fundamentals, that makes me say :biggums: It just goes to show how amazingly talented he was. To have those flaws and still impact the game like few have. No one more was devastating than him when he had a head of steam.

[ClipperRevival]

because that "killer mode" you saw from lebron after the first four games that went according to script wasnt just some lever he pulled that magically gave him Jordan level willpower.. LeBron's (and kyrie to an extent) great performances were a result of the rim protection for Golden State disintegrating and giving him much better looks than he was getting in those first four games.

Nah, he played with a different mindset. He maximized his talents and left nothing on the court.

[3ball]

Nah, he played with a different mindset. He maximized his talents and left nothing on the court.
So he was just half assing the first 4 games?

So when Lebron plays poorly, it's because he isn't playing his hardest, but when he wins, he was playing hard.

How about the reality that his broke jump shot and beta qualities didn't cause him to lose THIS TIME like it did other times - his broke j didn't show up for 2 games.. whooptidoo.. and he got one of the best and clutches performances EVER from a 2nd option

[ClipperRevival]

So he was just half assing the first 4 games?

So when Lebron plays poorly, it's because he isn't playing his hardest, but when he wins, he was playing hard.

How about the reality that his broke jump shot and beta qualities didn't cause him to lose THIS TIME like it did other times - his broke j didn't show up for 2 games.. whooptidoo.. and he got one of the best and clutches performances EVER from a 2nd option

There are different levels of intensity. You can have the mindset that I am going to impose my will on the game, just play within the flow and at the worst end, defer and not want anything to do with the action. Games 1-4, I would say he played within the flow. Games 5-7, he wanted to impose his will on the game. But you're also right about his jumper. Once that started falling, the rest of his game just picked up too and gave him more confidence.

[3ball]

But you're also right about his jumper. Once that started falling, the rest of his game just picked up too and gave him more confidence.
That's my point - his broke jumper didn't show up for 2 games... whooptido.

That's why they won.. all the intensity in the world can't turn a bad shooter into a good one.

If he shot like that last year, they would've won - but his looks weren't as good last year because he didn't have a 2nd option averaging a goat 27 ppg on 47% like he did this year
.

[tpols]

Nah, he played with a different mindset. He maximized his talents and left nothing on the court.

lmao .. you should be a journalist

[CTbasketball92]

Yup. After watching MJ and how he carried himself, it's hard for old skool dudes to completely respect LeBron. The lack of mastery of the basic fundamentals (footwork, post up game, and mid-range game), the flopping, the colluding, the Twitter diva stuff and the shying away in big moments, etc. I am actually surprised LeBron did what he did in these finals as it was going to script through the first 4 games. But he has shown he can wake up sometimes when backed into a corner but why can't he be in killer mode at all times like MJ was? I.e. LeBron didn't maximize his talents.

It's just hard to have a DEEP respect for LeBron if you watched MJ too. I mean I recognize he is a borderline top 5 all time great and his impact but his mentality always rubbed me the wrong way.

I think LeBron's best attributes rely too much on other people for him to just "go into killer mode" using them. He can finish better than anybody, but at the end of the day, you can guard the rim with help defense and going to the rim is exhausting. He can pass to teammates and make them better, but he can't make them hit their shots. MJ had a LeBron-like IQ, but he was also quicker and more agile so he could get through any defense. Maybe even more importantly that that, he mastered the midrange jumper. You can't really stop a midrange jumper because you're trying to keep MJ away from the basket, so you've gotta backpedal. At any point in time, MJ could just rise up and knock that midrange jumper down at 50% on a very high volume. MJ could literally score at will it felt like. LeBron has been an excellent scorer, but he could never rely on his jumper the way MJ could as a volume scorer. He couldn't make the extra jumpers he needed to make, whereas jordan could average 41 points for an entire finals series because of his diverse skills and jumper.

[gigantes]

lmao .. you should be a journalist
i think a guy like skip bayless would welcome him as an apprentice. :oldlol:

[GimmeThat]

I think LeBron's best attributes rely too much on other people for him to just "go into killer mode" using them. He can finish better than anybody, but at the end of the day, you can guard the rim with help defense and going to the rim is exhausting. He can pass to teammates and make them better, but he can't make them hit their shots. MJ had a LeBron-like IQ, but he was also quicker and more agile so he could get through any defense. Maybe even more importantly that that, he mastered the midrange jumper. You can't really stop a midrange jumper because you're trying to keep MJ away from the basket, so you've gotta backpedal. At any point in time, MJ could just rise up and knock that midrange jumper down at 50% on a very high volume. MJ could literally score at will it felt like. LeBron has been an excellent scorer, but he could never rely on his jumper the way MJ could as a volume scorer. He couldn't make the extra jumpers he needed to make, whereas jordan could average 41 points for an entire finals series because of his diverse skills and jumper.

the Cavs wanted to a build a team for the playoffs with that on and off switch, only when it came to the playoff, they couldn't find the switch

still not saying it can't be done

[Heilige]

The focus on legacy has ruined the NBA. For the players, it's not about beating the players on the other side of the court, it's about "chasing ghosts". They play with one eye on the scoreboard and the other eye on the stat sheet and their mind focused on the legacy roll call (accolades). Ultimate love/respect for the game and total desire to prop legacy don't match up. It's not about the game they are playing or the championship they are competing for, it's about the ultimate game -- racking up enough stats and accolades to be the GOAT. It's problematic for a few reasons:


1) The focus on being GOAT is often at odds with winning the game the right way. Sometimes it's best to pull back. The players, as Lebron just admitted, have become more focused on the game of becoming GOAT than the game of basketball. Players are too self-aware of their legacy which leads to becoming either gun-shy or trigger-happy in the clutch (instead of just being smart and doing what the situation calls for) because every game carries the weight of their legacy. Which leads to...

2) Players have to be willing to reinvent themselves to adjust to every game situation. Lebron with no jumpshot or post game or desire to learn what to do without the ball in his hands is an example of a player not willing to take a few steps back for the big picture. He has to grab every rebound. Has to make every pass. Has to efficient. Because he knows his numbers plus a few championships is his ticket to GOAT-hood. Meanwhile he has glaring holes in his game (already mentioned) and his lack of fundamentals...makes his game ugly (to me). Not willing to sacrifice his numbers to be a better player. Look at MJ in 87 then again in 89 then again in 92. He looks like 3 different players. And that's before he reinvented himself before the 96 season.

3) Players are not as willing to win ugly. This is really the point where you can see whether a players loves his legacy more than winning the game. Today's players will sulk or even give up if they can't generate the numbers to enhance their legacy. Or they will use every opportunity to pad their stats to cover up a bad game. They know the fans and media will only care about the boxscore so that gets the focus. This way the star player can avoid the scrutiny and in a subtle way pass the blame to his teammates (Hey I did all I could do!). But a quick glance at the game will show non-activity and lack of focus during crucial moments -- all packaged and covered up by the amazing box score. That's also why today's players are so passive-aggressive, insecure and overly defensive -- because they aren't used to dealing with criticism head on. But it's the criticism and the harsh self-evaluation that provides the pressure to force a player to alter his game or learn to not give a f*ck (which is exactly what Lebron gave MJ credit for in the Poetry quote above).

Many times we saw MJ pour it on in a game the Bulls ultimately lost. Most of those games are forgotten (except for the 63 point game in Boston) but that showed a die-trying attitude that actually was the reason he won so many games they shouldn't have won. Today's players, generally speaking, fall back and start to collect stats in order to protect themselves from the fallout (and keep their legacy in check).

Bottom line: today's players love their legacy more than the game.

The fans: We are living in a world where the casual fan rules the game. Basketball used to be for hard core guys willing to learn strategy, fundamentals, mentality, and other stuff that actually relates to life. And they (we) were willing to sit at the feet of seasoned guys to watch this stuff and ask questions to learn about the intricacies of the game. We hated when mom and sister tuned in during Mother's Day yelling at the screen about something they didn't understand because it was "cool" to watch on that day.

But now the popularity of the NBA and the dumbing down of the product has piqued the interest of a multitude of casual fans who aren't willing to sit and shut up until they learn enough to talk about what they know. They have basketball-reference and highlight videos and an internet forum. There are guys on here that have been watching for over a decade and are still casual fans that know nothing aside from crunching numbers and counting accolades because they were experts (in their own minds) the minute they started watching basketball.

The media: People die. And the world is changing. The hard core guys that provided the scrutiny and the criticism that actually created diamonds out of rocks are long gone. Replaced by suck-ups that don't know any more than today's casual fans. Instead of being the voice of reason, they coddle today's players and talk about how unfair it all is. "So-and-so did all he could, get off his back." They're nothing more than ISH-ers that are actually paid to write their opinions. They're cheerleaders. We live in a facebook world where we want everyone to like us. Generally speaking, of course.


You don't think Jordan cared about his legacy and wanted to be the GOAT? The desire to be the GOAT in any field be it music, sports, politcs, etc isn't wrong. Maybe it is though, I don't really know.

Look at music, Michael Jackson wanted to be the GOAT. Muhammad Ali wanted to be the GOAT in boxing. Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great wanted to be the GOAT in terms of humanity. Isaac Newton wanted to be the GOAT scientist. John F. Kennedy wanted to become the GOAT U.S. President.

Why is it wrong for someone to want to be the GOAT in their field? That is one of the reasons I like Jordan and Kobe so much; they wanted to be the GOAT in their field. Please tell me where I'm wrong at, because you and RBA have made fantastic points in this thread! :applause: :applause:

[Da_Realist]

You don't think Jordan cared about his legacy and wanted to be the GOAT? The desire to be the GOAT in any field be it music, sports, politcs, etc isn't wrong. Maybe it is though, I don't really know.

Look at music, Michael Jackson wanted to be the GOAT. Muhammad Ali wanted to be the GOAT in boxing. Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great wanted to be the GOAT in terms of humanity. Isaac Newton wanted to be the GOAT scientist. John F. Kennedy wanted to become the GOAT U.S. President.

Why is it wrong for someone to want to be the GOAT in their field? That is one of the reasons I like Jordan and Kobe so much; they wanted to be the GOAT in their field. Please tell me where I'm wrong at, because you and RBA have made fantastic points in this thread! :applause: :applause:

Thanks. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be the best but the love and respect for the game itself must be stronger. Keep in mind, Michael Jackson was a technician. Muhammad Ali was a technician. Nothing, even their desire to be GOAT, replaced their love and devotion to their respected crafts. Otherwise, you will resort to taking shortcuts or continuously jockeying for position after every game. You focus on "building your case" instead of being the best player you can be. It's a very subtle shift. Imagine if Michael Jackson tried to prove he was the best after every song. He would have seemed insecure. Michael Jackson knew who he was. Muhammad Ali knew who he was. Michael Jordan knew who he was. Jackson and Ali approached their sports in the same way Jordan did -- absolute perfection in all aspects. They weren't satisfied with holes in their games.

Jordan knew he was the best (maybe not all time) but he had a comfort level knowing if he gave his all, he would prove all doubters wrong. Kobe and Lebron came out of the gate trying to be GOAT -- in other words, they spent a lot of effort building the case to be GOAT without actually believing it themselves. That's why Kobe mimicked MJ and why Lebron is "chasing ghosts". It's an inherit admission that someone else is better -- namely MJ. This is what BJ Armstrong was trying to say. Stop building your case. Stop chasing ghosts. Be the best you can be and play your game. That will ultimately decide if you are as good or better.

Both knew they weren't as good, as do most people watching, so they tried to manufacture other things to make it seem like they were (for Kobe it was scoring and ring count, for Lebron it's stats).

The true test is the way things are evaluated. When MJ played, there were plenty of people that said, "Wow, he's the best player i've ever seen." Whether that was absolutely true is beside the point. The point was he, by his play -- aside from stats, elicited an emotional declaration like that even from people that hated him.

With Kobe and Lebron, there is no emotion like that elicited when actually watching them play. It is done after the fact. After someone has had a chance to peruse the box score and compare it with others does some youngin say, "Hey did you see Lebron had a 29 point triple double last night? Wow, he's gotta be top two." (Even that high praise, by the way, is an admission.)

Game 5 of this year's Finals is a perfect example of this. Lebron played a fantastic game but Game 5 was Kyrie's game. If Kyrie doesn't go off and hit some amazing, unbelievable shots, the Cavs would have lost in 5. If Kyrie didn't step up to a historic level in the 4th quarter, they would have lost in 5. But it's hard to get past the triple double Lebron posted. Stats say Lebron had the better game but that's not what I saw.

I know that's stepping on some toes but I feel I can be honest in this thread.

[ClipperRevival]

Thanks. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be the best but the love and respect for the game itself must be stronger. Keep in mind, Michael Jackson was a technician. Muhammad Ali was a technician. Nothing, even their desire to be GOAT, replaced their love and devotion to their respected crafts. Otherwise, you will resort to taking shortcuts or continuously jockeying for position after every game. You focus on "building your case" instead of being the best player you can be. It's a very subtle shift. Imagine if Michael Jackson tried to prove he was the best after every song. He would have seemed insecure. Michael Jackson knew who he was. Muhammad Ali knew who he was. Michael Jordan knew who he was. Jackson and Ali approached their sports in the same way Jordan did -- absolute perfection in all aspects. They weren't satisfied with holes in their games.

Jordan knew he was the best (maybe not all time) but he had a comfort level knowing if he gave his all, he would prove all doubters wrong. Kobe and Lebron came out of the gate trying to be GOAT -- in other words, they spent a lot of effort building the case to be GOAT without actually believing it themselves. That's why Kobe mimicked MJ and why Lebron is "chasing ghosts". It's an inherit admission that someone else is better -- namely MJ. This is what BJ Armstrong was trying to say. Stop building your case. Stop chasing ghosts. Be the best you can be and play your game. That will ultimately decide if you are as good or better.

Both knew they weren't as good, as do most people watching, so they tried to manufacture other things to make it seem like they were (for Kobe it was scoring and ring count, for Lebron it's stats).

The true test is the way things are evaluated. When MJ played, there were plenty of people that said, "Wow, he's the best player i've ever seen." Whether that was absolutely true is beside the point. The point was he, by his play -- aside from stats, elicited an emotional declaration like that even from people that hated him.

With Kobe and Lebron, there is no emotion like that elicited when actually watching them play. It is done after the fact. After someone has had a chance to peruse the box score and compare it with others does some youngin say, "Hey did you see Lebron had a 29 point triple double last night? Wow, he's gotta be top two." (Even that high praise, by the way, is an admission.)

Game 5 of this year's Finals is a perfect example of this. Lebron played a fantastic game but Game 5 was Kyrie's game. If Kyrie doesn't go off and hit some amazing, unbelievable shots, the Cavs would have lost in 5. If Kyrie didn't step up to a historic level in the 4th quarter, they would have lost in 5. But it's hard to get past the triple double Lebron posted. Stats say Lebron had the better game but that's not what I saw.

I know that's stepping on some toes but I feel I can be honest in this thread.

MJ wasn't granted anything. He had to earn everything. Most people viewed him as a great individual talent who didn't know how to win before he won. In hindsight, people think it was all laid out in front of him to be the GOAT but that wasn't the case. He had to take it from others to claim his spot. A lot of people put Magic and Bird ahead of MJ because they had the rings and MJ didn't. He didn't win his 1st title until his 7th season. He had to find out how to win. The most important aspect about MJ for me was that every time he stepped on the court, he gave it his all. He never gave an inch. And I respect that.

And I agree about Kyrie. Dude was just GOAT level clutch, hitting shot after shot to keep his team in the game. I've seldom seen a guy do this at this level.

[Heilige]

Thanks. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be the best but the love and respect for the game itself must be stronger. Keep in mind, Michael Jackson was a technician. Muhammad Ali was a technician. Nothing, even their desire to be GOAT, replaced their love and devotion to their respected crafts. Otherwise, you will resort to taking shortcuts or continuously jockeying for position after every game. You focus on "building your case" instead of being the best player you can be. It's a very subtle shift. Imagine if Michael Jackson tried to prove he was the best after every song. He would have seemed insecure. Michael Jackson knew who he was. Muhammad Ali knew who he was. Michael Jordan knew who he was. Jackson and Ali approached their sports in the same way Jordan did -- absolute perfection in all aspects. They weren't satisfied with holes in their games.

Jordan knew he was the best (maybe not all time) but he had a comfort level knowing if he gave his all, he would prove all doubters wrong. Kobe and Lebron came out of the gate trying to be GOAT -- in other words, they spent a lot of effort building the case to be GOAT without actually believing it themselves. That's why Kobe mimicked MJ and why Lebron is "chasing ghosts". It's an inherit admission that someone else is better -- namely MJ. This is what BJ Armstrong was trying to say. Stop building your case. Stop chasing ghosts. Be the best you can be and play your game. That will ultimately decide if you are as good or better.

Both knew they weren't as good, as do most people watching, so they tried to manufacture other things to make it seem like they were (for Kobe it was scoring and ring count, for Lebron it's stats).

The true test is the way things are evaluated. When MJ played, there were plenty of people that said, "Wow, he's the best player i've ever seen." Whether that was absolutely true is beside the point. The point was he, by his play -- aside from stats, elicited an emotional declaration like that even from people that hated him.

With Kobe and Lebron, there is no emotion like that elicited when actually watching them play. It is done after the fact. After someone has had a chance to peruse the box score and compare it with others does some youngin say, "Hey did you see Lebron had a 29 point triple double last night? Wow, he's gotta be top two." (Even that high praise, by the way, is an admission.)

Game 5 of this year's Finals is a perfect example of this. Lebron played a fantastic game but Game 5 was Kyrie's game. If Kyrie doesn't go off and hit some amazing, unbelievable shots, the Cavs would have lost in 5. If Kyrie didn't step up to a historic level in the 4th quarter, they would have lost in 5. But it's hard to get past the triple double Lebron posted. Stats say Lebron had the better game but that's not what I saw.

I know that's stepping on some toes but I feel I can be honest in this thread.


I get what you're saying, thanks man.

Do you have youtube link of BJ Armstrong saying that?

[ClipperRevival]

I think LeBron's best attributes rely too much on other people for him to just "go into killer mode" using them. He can finish better than anybody, but at the end of the day, you can guard the rim with help defense and going to the rim is exhausting. He can pass to teammates and make them better, but he can't make them hit their shots. MJ had a LeBron-like IQ, but he was also quicker and more agile so he could get through any defense. Maybe even more importantly that that, he mastered the midrange jumper. You can't really stop a midrange jumper because you're trying to keep MJ away from the basket, so you've gotta backpedal. At any point in time, MJ could just rise up and knock that midrange jumper down at 50% on a very high volume. MJ could literally score at will it felt like. LeBron has been an excellent scorer, but he could never rely on his jumper the way MJ could as a volume scorer. He couldn't make the extra jumpers he needed to make, whereas jordan could average 41 points for an entire finals series because of his diverse skills and jumper.

MJ simply sh'ts on LeBron as a scorer. It's not even close despite the numbers. LeBron had every chance to show his class last year in the finals with single coverage about 90% of the time. Dude was incredibly ineffcient. I can't imagine how much MJ would've toasted a team if he faced single coverage in a finals. He faced doubles/triples in 1993 against the Suns and dropped 41.0 ppg on 50% FG.

If LeBron had 5 tools he could use as an offensive player, MJ had about 10. MJ is the greatest scorer in NBA history and the numbers proves this. It wasn't even close when you consider he did all this in the modern era and Wilt did his in the early 60's.

[andgar923]

Thanks. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be the best but the love and respect for the game itself must be stronger. Keep in mind, Michael Jackson was a technician. Muhammad Ali was a technician. Nothing, even their desire to be GOAT, replaced their love and devotion to their respected crafts. Otherwise, you will resort to taking shortcuts or continuously jockeying for position after every game. You focus on "building your case" instead of being the best player you can be. It's a very subtle shift. Imagine if Michael Jackson tried to prove he was the best after every song. He would have seemed insecure. Michael Jackson knew who he was. Muhammad Ali knew who he was. Michael Jordan knew who he was. Jackson and Ali approached their sports in the same way Jordan did -- absolute perfection in all aspects. They weren't satisfied with holes in their games.

Jordan knew he was the best (maybe not all time) but he had a comfort level knowing if he gave his all, he would prove all doubters wrong. Kobe and Lebron came out of the gate trying to be GOAT -- in other words, they spent a lot of effort building the case to be GOAT without actually believing it themselves. That's why Kobe mimicked MJ and why Lebron is "chasing ghosts". It's an inherit admission that someone else is better -- namely MJ. This is what BJ Armstrong was trying to say. Stop building your case. Stop chasing ghosts. Be the best you can be and play your game. That will ultimately decide if you are as good or better.

Both knew they weren't as good, as do most people watching, so they tried to manufacture other things to make it seem like they were (for Kobe it was scoring and ring count, for Lebron it's stats).

The true test is the way things are evaluated. When MJ played, there were plenty of people that said, "Wow, he's the best player i've ever seen." Whether that was absolutely true is beside the point. The point was he, by his play -- aside from stats, elicited an emotional declaration like that even from people that hated him.

With Kobe and Lebron, there is no emotion like that elicited when actually watching them play. It is done after the fact. After someone has had a chance to peruse the box score and compare it with others does some youngin say, "Hey did you see Lebron had a 29 point triple double last night? Wow, he's gotta be top two." (Even that high praise, by the way, is an admission.)

Game 5 of this year's Finals is a perfect example of this. Lebron played a fantastic game but Game 5 was Kyrie's game. If Kyrie doesn't go off and hit some amazing, unbelievable shots, the Cavs would have lost in 5. If Kyrie didn't step up to a historic level in the 4th quarter, they would have lost in 5. But it's hard to get past the triple double Lebron posted. Stats say Lebron had the better game but that's not what I saw.

I know that's stepping on some toes but I feel I can be honest in this thread.

Great analysis on what it takes to be GREAT.

If you read any interviews on the best of the best they all have the same attributes. They focus on being themselves first. Sure they want to be the best, and they get influenced by others, but they all know who they are. Being 'influenced' is not the same as 'wanting to BE'.

MJ was MJ
MJ was MJ
Ali was Ali

We can go down the line of the best of the best and they will all say they just wanted to be THEMSELVES. Their love and dedication to be themselves is what made THEM be great.

I agree with all your points, Kobe was trying to be MJ, Bron is trying to chase MJ. Which is why they both feel the need to always lash out against him and try to give him backhanded compliments, their insecurity always comes through.

[Da_Realist]

I get what you're saying, thanks man.

Do you have youtube link of BJ Armstrong saying that?

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17206177/former-michael-jordan-teammate-bj-armstrong-lebron-james-chasing-ghost-make-believe-land

[RedBlackAttack]

amazing post.

with a little stat-padding, this could be and should be a featured article on the site.
I could add the statistical analysis if Jeff wanted to incorporate features/columns on the site. That's actually a pretty good idea and it would help me get my writing chops back up to snuff. Been out of the business for a minute.

[andgar923]

Walton talking about MJ and what made him great.

Like it's been mentioned in this thread and by pros/coaches... It started with the fundamentals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQNfbTD0r3g

[ClipperRevival]

Walton talking about MJ and what made him great.

Like it's been mentioned in this thread and by pros/coaches... It started with the fundamentals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQNfbTD0r3g

:applause:

Bball is a simple game. If you master the fundamentals, you have a big advantage over a lot of your opponents who don't. MJ had the perfect platform during his 3 years in NC. He had that BASIC, FUNDAMENTALLY SOUND game to rely on for the rest of his career. And that's a big part of why he was the GOAT. He wasn't some dumb, uber athletic guy relying on sheer athleticism. His backbone was the basics.

GOAT gonna GOAT.

[CTbasketball92]

Thanks. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be the best but the love and respect for the game itself must be stronger. Keep in mind, Michael Jackson was a technician. Muhammad Ali was a technician. Nothing, even their desire to be GOAT, replaced their love and devotion to their respected crafts. Otherwise, you will resort to taking shortcuts or continuously jockeying for position after every game. You focus on "building your case" instead of being the best player you can be. It's a very subtle shift. Imagine if Michael Jackson tried to prove he was the best after every song. He would have seemed insecure. Michael Jackson knew who he was. Muhammad Ali knew who he was. Michael Jordan knew who he was. Jackson and Ali approached their sports in the same way Jordan did -- absolute perfection in all aspects. They weren't satisfied with holes in their games.

Jordan knew he was the best (maybe not all time) but he had a comfort level knowing if he gave his all, he would prove all doubters wrong. Kobe and Lebron came out of the gate trying to be GOAT -- in other words, they spent a lot of effort building the case to be GOAT without actually believing it themselves. That's why Kobe mimicked MJ and why Lebron is "chasing ghosts". It's an inherit admission that someone else is better -- namely MJ. This is what BJ Armstrong was trying to say. Stop building your case. Stop chasing ghosts. Be the best you can be and play your game. That will ultimately decide if you are as good or better.

Both knew they weren't as good, as do most people watching, so they tried to manufacture other things to make it seem like they were (for Kobe it was scoring and ring count, for Lebron it's stats).

The true test is the way things are evaluated. When MJ played, there were plenty of people that said, "Wow, he's the best player i've ever seen." Whether that was absolutely true is beside the point. The point was he, by his play -- aside from stats, elicited an emotional declaration like that even from people that hated him.

With Kobe and Lebron, there is no emotion like that elicited when actually watching them play. It is done after the fact. After someone has had a chance to peruse the box score and compare it with others does some youngin say, "Hey did you see Lebron had a 29 point triple double last night? Wow, he's gotta be top two." (Even that high praise, by the way, is an admission.)

Game 5 of this year's Finals is a perfect example of this. Lebron played a fantastic game but Game 5 was Kyrie's game. If Kyrie doesn't go off and hit some amazing, unbelievable shots, the Cavs would have lost in 5. If Kyrie didn't step up to a historic level in the 4th quarter, they would have lost in 5. But it's hard to get past the triple double Lebron posted. Stats say Lebron had the better game but that's not what I saw.

I know that's stepping on some toes but I feel I can be honest in this thread.

I have to say, having missed out on seeing MJ live (other than the wizards one,w hich i saw in person), there've been several times I've said "LeBron is the best player I've ever seen." One of those times was Game 6 of the finals this past year, Game 6 in the eastern conference finals in 2012, that game against the pistons in 2007 when he scored their last 25 points against the pistons when he was only 22... and the entire 2015 finals. The one true reason I think it could be argued to be MJ's equal is his ability to turn absolutely terrible teams into 50+ win ones or 60+ win contenders. I feel like the 2015 NBA finals was a microcosm of that. LeBron just fills so many holes, it's like having him is having a big 3 in itself. Superstar scorer, superstar point guard, superstar ddefender, superstar defender ... etc. He just does so much all over the floor.

[ClipperRevival]

I have to say, having missed out on seeing MJ live (other than the wizards one,w hich i saw in person), there've been several times I've said "LeBron is the best player I've ever seen." One of those times was Game 6 of the finals this past year, Game 6 in the eastern conference finals in 2012, that game against the pistons in 2007 when he scored their last 25 points against the pistons when he was only 22... and the entire 2015 finals. The one true reason I think it could be argued to be MJ's equal is his ability to turn absolutely terrible teams into 50+ win ones or 60+ win contenders. I feel like the 2015 NBA finals was a microcosm of that. LeBron just fills so many holes, it's like having him is having a big 3 in itself. Superstar scorer, superstar point guard, superstar ddefender, superstar defender ... etc. He just does so much all over the floor.

If you never saw MJ play live, I can understand anyone who thinks LeBron is the GOAT. His impact can't be disputed. But the simple fact is, if you didn't see MJ, you missed out on the GOAT. The truth is simple while lies are complicated (Laz with his Wilt threads LOL). 95% of people who saw BOTH play will agree, MJ trumps LeBron. It's that simple. LeBron has to put in several years of truly transcendent finals wins to get on the same level as MJ.

[RedBlackAttack]

Game 5 of this year's Finals is a perfect example of this. Lebron played a fantastic game but Game 5 was Kyrie's game. If Kyrie doesn't go off and hit some amazing, unbelievable shots, the Cavs would have lost in 5. If Kyrie didn't step up to a historic level in the 4th quarter, they would have lost in 5. But it's hard to get past the triple double Lebron posted. Stats say Lebron had the better game but that's not what I saw.

I know that's stepping on some toes but I feel I can be honest in this thread.
Here's the only thing I disagree with in your post. I don't think the statistics favored LeBron over Kyrie in that game.

LeBron didn't have a triple-double in Game 5 (that was Game 7). He did have an amazing 41 points, 16 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals, 3 blocks. That's insane production.

But, from a statistical standpoint, what Kyrie Irving did is legendary. He is the only player aside from Wilt Chamberlain to score 41 points on 70% from the field or greater. He was 17-of-24 from the field (71%). And, when you factor in all of the free throws Wilt would get (and miss), you find that it was the most efficient 40+ point scoring game in Finals history (Kyrie was just 4-of-4 from the line).

He also had 6 assists and 2 blocks while being the main defender in a Steph Curry 8-for-21, 4 assist, 4 turnover game at Oracle.

Even statistically, I think what Kyrie did was more historic and that is to take nothing away from LeBron. When you start factoring in what you said about all of the clutch baskets fending off the Warriors every time they tried to make a run ....

Yeah, that was Kyrie's game, if we're going to rate players in that kind of way each game.

[Da_Realist]

If you never saw MJ play live, I can understand anyone who thinks LeBron is the GOAT. His impact can't be disputed. But the simple fact is, if you didn't see MJ, you missed out on the GOAT. The truth is simple while lies are complicated (Laz with his Wilt threads LOL). 95% of people who saw BOTH play will agree, MJ trumps LeBron. It's that simple. LeBron has to put in several years of truly transcendent finals wins to get on the same level as MJ.

Not just MJ but Magic, Bird, Olajuwon, Shaq and probably Duncan's best years, too. Plus other styles of play and the importance/impact of other great players like Grant Hill, Kevin McHale, Garnett, Pippen, Isiah Thomas, David Robinson, etc that could affect the way he views the game. That doesn't mean he would think any of them are better than Lebron but it could change the lens he uses to analyze the game.

[Da_Realist]

Here's the only thing I disagree with in your post. I don't think the statistics favored LeBron over Kyrie in that game.

LeBron didn't have a triple-double in Game 5 (that was Game 7). He did have an amazing 41 points, 16 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals, 3 blocks. That's insane production.

But, from a statistical standpoint, what Kyrie Irving did is legendary. He is the only player aside from Wilt Chamberlain to score 41 points on 70% from the field or greater. He was 17-of-24 from the field (71%). And, when you factor in all of the free throws Wilt would get (and miss), you find that it was the most efficient 40+ point scoring game in Finals history (Kyrie was just 4-of-4 from the line).

He also had 6 assists and 2 blocks while being the main defender in a Steph Curry 8-for-21, 4 assist, 4 turnover game at Oracle.

Even statistically, I think what Kyrie did was more historic and that is to take nothing away from LeBron. When you start factoring in what you said about all of the clutch baskets fending off the Warriors every time they tried to make a run ....

Yeah, that was Kyrie's game, if we're going to rate players in that kind of way each game.

That is insane production from both. And my bad on the mistake. I've been typing on my phone cause I wasn't at home. I just went off of memory. Lebron's game 5 is celebrated but no one talks about what Kyrie did aside from the last shot of game 7. As if Kyrie was only an updated version of Paxson in 93. It just makes me wonder if Kyrie was filtered out of everyone's mind in order to fit it into a narrative.

Lebron had a great game. I even watched it again a few days ago to really analyze it and came away more impressed by how Lebron played than when watching it live. But that was definitely Kyrie's moment.

[ClipperRevival]

I have said this a few times but Kyrie's iso scoring abilities against set defenses in the finals was about the highest level I have ever seen. It was unbelievable. He shook/cook guys time and time again against a set defender with a set defense backing that defender. Creating your own shot against that scenario is the hardest thing to do in bball.

[RedBlackAttack]

That is insane production from both. And my bad on the mistake. I've been typing on my phone cause I wasn't at home. I just went off of memory. Lebron's game 5 is celebrated but no one talks about what Kyrie did aside from the last shot of game 7. As if Kyrie was only an updated version of Paxson in 93. It just makes me wonder if Kyrie was filtered out of everyone's mind in order to fit it into a narrative.

Lebron had a great game. I even watched it again a few days ago to really analyze it and came away more impressed by how Lebron played than when watching it live. But that was definitely Kyrie's moment.
I've found that the media and advanced statistics nerds are the primary source for Kyrie's lack of attention and accolades. For some reason, stat guys like Haralabos Voulgaris hate Kyrie Irving. I'm serious. I'm not saying that he just dislikes his game, he seems to actively root against him at all times. That rubs off on Amin Elhassen and the rest of that impressionable crew at ESPN.

Most sane people know what they saw.

Kyrie was damn near perfect from Game 3 onward, with the exception of the second half of Game 6. He hurt his foot just as the first half was ending. He was on his way to having another crazy game... I think he had 20+ at halftime. But the injury hindered him and then LeBron starting going nuts so it didn't matter much.

But, KI had a signature moment in every Cavs win basically all playoffs long. He was amazing. And it is scary that he just turned 24. :eek:

[CTbasketball92]

I've found that the media and advanced statistics nerds are the primary source for Kyrie's lack of attention and accolades. For some reason, stat guys like Haralabos Voulgaris hate Kyrie Irving. I'm serious. I'm not saying that he just dislikes his game, he seems to actively root against him at all times. That rubs off on Amin Elhassen and the rest of that impressionable crew at ESPN.

Most sane people know what they saw.

Kyrie was damn near perfect from Game 3 onward, with the exception of the second half of Game 6. He hurt his foot just as the first half was ending. He was on his way to having another crazy game... I think he had 20+ at halftime. But the injury hindered him and then LeBron starting going nuts so it didn't matter much.

But, KI had a signature moment in every Cavs win basically all playoffs long. He was amazing. And it is scary that he just turned 24. :eek:

Thankfully I haven't seen elhassan's kyrie slander on Twitter lately. People just don't realize how valuable kyrie was. Kyrie essentially gave LeBron the MJ big scoring moment factor in every series. Ppl think LeBron was just being really passive in the first two NBA finals games and Game 4, but the truth is, he needed Kyrie to score all of those 19 footers and 3 pointers he couldn't. Literally everytime the cavs needed a bucket to keep momentum or cut into a lead, Kyrie would just drill fadeaway after fadeaway and pull-up after pull-up and layup after layup. People called it "hero ball," but Kyrie was the only one keeping the cavs in the game for stretches of a bunch of playoff games. "Hero Ball" is just the buzz word of the day.

[Prometheus]

It was Kyrie's game down the stretch, but LeBron set the tone and put them in that position with his aggressiveness on both ends. He was taking it strong to the cup all game.

[Prometheus]

I guess what I'm saying is that LeBron's impact was greater, and they would have had a better chance of winning that one without Kyrie than without LeBron... but Kyrie sealed it and, for me, stole the show. Some of those shots he hit in the fourth were remarkable.

[Prometheus]

I have said this a few times but Kyrie's iso scoring abilities against set defenses in the finals was about the highest level I have ever seen. It was unbelievable. He shook/cook guys time and time again against a set defender with a set defense backing that defender. Creating your own shot against that scenario is the hardest thing to do in bball.

Agreed. He's got such a crisp, creative handle, and that midrange game is dazzling. Scary talent

[Dragonyeuw]

I have said this a few times but Kyrie's iso scoring abilities against set defenses in the finals was about the highest level I have ever seen. It was unbelievable. He shook/cook guys time and time again against a set defender with a set defense backing that defender. Creating your own shot against that scenario is the hardest thing to do in bball.

Kyrie's performance wins FMVP in many years.

[ArbitraryWater]

Realist is a good poster who still has Mike's balls too far down at times... Trying to group LeBron with Kobe all the time, seems insecure..

Particularly in the context of saying Bron always chased MJ, when he took a much more team oriented approach to the game.

[Da_Realist]

Realist is a good poster who still has Mike's balls too far down at times... Trying to group LeBron with Kobe all the time, seems insecure..

Particularly in the context of saying Bron always chased MJ, when he took a much more team oriented approach to the game.

ad hominum usually means you have no argument and need to resort to atracking the messenger.

My motivation is the ghost I'm chasing. The ghost played in Chicago. -- Lebron James

http://www.si.com/nba/2016/08/02/lebron-james-michael-jordan-ghost-cleveland-cavaliers-championship

[plowking]

ad hominum usually means you have no argument and need to resort to atracking the messenger.

My motivation is the ghost I'm chasing. The ghost played in Chicago. -- Lebron James

http://www.si.com/nba/2016/08/02/lebron-james-michael-jordan-ghost-cleveland-cavaliers-championship

Serious question... If LeBron isn't on MJ's level, why is it that all the raw stats show they are equal? Why do all the advanced stats show they are too? In fact, most +/- and replacement stats show that LeBron is actually ahead.
Why is it that over the course of the same amount of seasons in the league, they have both made a similar amount of finals? Why have they netted a similar amount of MVP's?

Why are all the stats and outcomes so eerily similar, yet they aren't on the same level?

[CTbasketball92]

Serious question... If LeBron isn't on MJ's level, why is it that all the raw stats show they are equal? Why do all the advanced stats show they are too? In fact, most +/- and replacement stats show that LeBron is actually ahead.
Why is it that over the course of the same amount of seasons in the league, they have both made a similar amount of finals? Why have they netted a similar amount of MVP's?

Why are all the stats and outcomes so eerily similar, yet they aren't on the same level?

I would DEFINITELY say they're on the same level. Also, LeBron has only lost one title he definitely shouldn't have. In 2007 he was much younger than MJ, and at least another year before his true prime. In 2014 the spurs were just too damn good. People will point to LeBron's poor shooting in the 2015 finals and look at how close some of the losing games were, but lebron had to play superhumanly well to keep the game close in the first place as far as running the offense, rebounding and playing defense ... etc. I think every version of MJ still loses that one, and possibly in one fewer game. Hard to see MJ winning against the 2014 spurs too.

[diamenz]

Serious question... If LeBron isn't on MJ's level, why is it that all the raw stats show they are equal? Why do all the advanced stats show they are too? In fact, most +/- and replacement stats show that LeBron is actually ahead.
Why is it that over the course of the same amount of seasons in the league, they have both made a similar amount of finals? Why have they netted a similar amount of MVP's?

Why are all the stats and outcomes so eerily similar, yet they aren't on the same level?

jordan and lebron are on the same level, and you're right - the stats and accolades are similar but they don't tell the whole story. when you measure the two men fully with everything considered, jordan is clearly comfortably ahead.

what makes jordan goat to me is simply his mastery and artistry of the game, along with his god-like iq. when you watch the man make plays, it's just perfect. no weaknesses, nothing exaggerated and nothing wasted. simple yet effective. jordan and lebron are on the same level, but jordan is on another level, if you will.

like it's been said in this thread, you had to watch live it to understand it.

[jstern]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8suQV8CnNw
Jordan sometimes seem to be hurting these guys when he bumps against them.

[aj1987]

jordan and lebron are on the same level, and you're right - the stats and accolades are similar but they don't tell the whole story. when you measure the two men fully with everything considered, jordan is clearly comfortably ahead.

what makes jordan goat to me is simply his mastery and artistry of the game, along with his god-like iq. when you watch the man make plays, it's just perfect. no weaknesses, nothing exaggerated and nothing wasted. simple yet effective. jordan and lebron are on the same level, but jordan is on another level, if you will.

like it's been said in this thread, you had to watch live it to understand it.
They're on the same tier as players, but when we're talking about ATG rankings, as you said, MJ is comfortably ahead. I doubt LeBron will ever be able to catch him.

[Da_Realist]

Serious question... If LeBron isn't on MJ's level, why is it that all the raw stats show they are equal? Why do all the advanced stats show they are too? In fact, most +/- and replacement stats show that LeBron is actually ahead.
Why is it that over the course of the same amount of seasons in the league, they have both made a similar amount of finals? Why have they netted a similar amount of MVP's?

Why are all the stats and outcomes so eerily similar, yet they aren't on the same level?

Because comparing stats and ring counting is cheap without context. There are people who think Bird was better than Magic even though they played during the same time, Magic won 2 more rings and his team beat Bird's 2 out of 3. How do you explain that? These people don't know how to count??? Maybe they are looking at other things...

Comparing stats and counting rings is statboy analysis. It doesn't take much more than a 4th grade education. That's not real basketball analysis.