Kobe Bryant to 2003 Cavs Scenario [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

BigKAT

08-21-2016, 10:19 AM

Multiple scoring champ's , mvp's , fmvp's , rings .

And Ilga would have been in the debate , for being best player of championship team .

Okay, Scoring titles for sure, no doubt about that.
Maybe even multiple 35 PPG seasons.

But,

What year do you see him wining MVP?
What year do you see him wining the whole thing?

Take into account Kobe's age at the time and stuff.
Do they Cavs get to the 07' Finals with a 22 years old kobe?
Do they beat the whomever comes out of the West instead of the Lakers?

Overdrive

08-21-2016, 10:24 AM

Question isn't answerable without knowing the picks they'd get a few years down the road.

BigKAT

08-21-2016, 10:28 AM

Question isn't answerable without knowing the picks they'd get a few years down the road.

You have a point, but this is just theorizing.

I see Kobe getting them to the playoffs within 3-4 years,
Likely staying there for the bulk of his career, maybe getting an all-star in a trade pau-esque.

Really I see a Cavs led by Kobe contending for 3-4 years in the meat of his prime and culiminating in two rings, maybe back to back if the stars align for his peak.

feyki

08-21-2016, 10:29 AM

Okay, Scoring titles for sure, no doubt about that.
Maybe even multiple 35 PPG seasons.

But,

What year do you see him wining MVP?
What year do you see him wining the whole thing?

Take into account Kobe's age at the time and stuff.
Do they Cavs get to the 07' Finals with a 22 years old kobe?
Do they beat the whomever comes out of the West instead of the Lakers?

05-07 mvp races were weak . Dirk and Nash are my favoruite ballers , but if they got , Kobe would got too .

Actually , i would give him a chance for 07,09 and 10 . 2007 would be really tough . Cause we didn't see real Duncan in the Finals , because of Lebron's choking . 2009 is really possible . 2010 would be tough , again . But not as much as 2007 . At least one ring .

2007 Pistons were less than 55 wins team and w/out Ben Wallace ( who was the main reason of the success ) . Lebron played great . But thinking Pistons were unbeatable is wrong .

tpols

08-21-2016, 10:44 AM

Take into account Kobe's age at the time and stuff.
Do they Cavs get to the 07' Finals with a 22 years old kobe?

Kobe was 22 years old in 2001 season .. and averaged 34/8/6 on 49% shooting out West in the semis and conference Finals against the Kings and the Spurs. Lebron averaged 25/9/8 , 45% shooting to beat Detroit, and 25/8/7 , 43% shooting to beat the Nets in his eastern conference battles.. the numbers overwhelmingly say that Bryant was capable of putting in a performance not only at LeBron's level, but vastly exceeding the threshold for what was necessary for his team to win.

Do they beat the whomever comes out of the West instead of the Lakers?

If we assume the spurs come out of the West..

a) we already know 22 year old Kobe dropped 33/7/7 on 51% shooting on them when they were a better defensive team in 2001 than they were in 2007

and

b) the cavs were able to hang around in most games and there was only a 5 point average difference per game and that was with Lebron putting up a line of 22/7/7 on 36% shooting.

Based on the above evidence here^^^ it is completely possible that a young peak kobe couldve won given LeBron's path.

BigKAT

08-21-2016, 10:49 AM

Kobe was 22 years old in 2001 season .. and averaged 34/8/6 on 49% shooting out West in the semis and conference Finals against the Kings and the Spurs. Lebron averaged 25/9/8 , 45% shooting to beat Detroit, and 25/8/7 , 43% shooting to beat the Nets in his eastern conference battles.. the numbers overwhelmingly say that Bryant was capable of putting in a performance not only at LeBron's level, but vastly exceeding the threshold for what was necessary for his team to win.

If we assume the spurs come out of the West..

a) we already know 22 year old Kobe dropped 33/7/7 on 51% shooting on them when they were a better defensive team in 2001 than they were in 2007

and

b) the cavs were able to hang around in most games and there was only a 5 point average difference per game and that was with Lebron putting up a line of 22/7/7 on 36% shooting.

Based on the above evidence here^^^ it is completely possible that a young peak kobe couldve won given LeBron's path.

I'll give you that,
Out of best players that played in the 2000's,
It feels like Kobe is the only one who really has the Spurs Numbers.
(Early 2010's I'd say OKC and choking undid them.)

But still, Kobe got these (awesome) stats when defenses had to take Shaq into account. Whose to stop the Spurs to just ganging up on him and would he put the same numbers when he isn't the 2nd best player on the team? Or Co-1st.

tpols

08-21-2016, 10:54 AM

I'll give you that,
Out of best players that played in the 2000's,
It feels like Kobe is the only one who really has the Spurs Numbers.
(Early 2010's I'd say OKC and choking undid them.)

But still, Kobe got these (awesome) stats when defenses had to take Shaq into account. Whose to stop the Spurs to just ganging up on him and would he put the same numbers when he isn't the 2nd best player on the team? Or Co-1st.

Well, the spurs historically have been great at stopping low post players, and slashers mainly because of two words.. tim duncan lol. So they have had success against shaq early on pre-2001 and they had success against LeBron in most of their Finals because they could bait him into shooting the ball and close off the rim. In 2007 he shot something like sub 20% on those jumpers, in 2013 he shot a lot better and that made the difference.. but spurs are a team that concedes mid range and stop layups.. thats why guys like Dirk and Kobe have gone off on them because that is their comfort zone.. and they also have the ability to get to the rim if you dont respect it enough. it's scoring versatility that doesnt allow you to fall for the spurs trap.

BigKAT

08-21-2016, 11:11 AM

Well, the spurs historically have been great at stopping low post players, and slashers mainly because of two words.. tim duncan lol. So they have had success against shaq early on pre-2001 and they had success against LeBron in most of their Finals because they could bait him into shooting the ball and close off the rim. In 2007 he shot something like sub 20% on those jumpers, in 2013 he shot a lot better and that made the difference.. but spurs are a team that concedes mid range and stop layups.. thats why guys like Dirk and Kobe have gone off on them because that is their comfort zone.. and they also have the ability to get to the rim if you dont respect it enough. it's scoring versatility that doesnt allow you to fall for the spurs trap.

Basically,
You say it's a Rock/Paper/Scissors kind of thing,

Where an average player with a wide arsenal offensivly might do better then one that is elite but only in a few fields?

Pretty much against them you'd rather have umh..

I hope this is a good comparison
But you wouldn't want Demar Derozen - Great slashing, good at getting free-throws, bad range and average passer,

Instead you'd take
Terrence Ross - Good slashing, good 3pt shooting, not on Demar's overall level but is more diverse?

I think Kobe has been often time dubbed as a Spurskiller.

With all that said,
I still don't think he'd have an easier time against the Celtics in the East, I think they might even take his Finals berth in 11' and 12'.

SouBeachTalents

08-21-2016, 12:05 PM

05-07 mvp races were weak . Dirk and Nash are my favoruite ballers , but if they got , Kobe would got too .

Actually , i would give him a chance for 07,09 and 10 . 2007 would be really tough . Cause we didn't see real Duncan in the Finals , because of Lebron's choking . 2009 is really possible . 2010 would be tough , again . But not as much as 2007 . At least one ring .

2007 Pistons were less than 55 wins team and w/out Ben Wallace ( who was the main reason of the success ) . Lebron played great . But thinking Pistons were unbeatable is wrong .

Holy shit you're one of the worst posters here, Kobe doesn't come CLOSE to winning a ring on the Cavs from '04-'10

BigKAT

08-21-2016, 12:08 PM

Holy shit you're one of the worst posters here, Kobe doesn't come CLOSE to winning a ring on the Cavs from '04-'10

Probably doesn't.

Where do you have him in 11'-14'?
(assuming he was 18 in 2003)

I think he nabs a ring or two if he sticks it out with the organization.

SouBeachTalents

08-21-2016, 12:20 PM

Probably doesn't.

Where do you have him in 11'-14'?
(assuming he was 18 in 2003)

I think he nabs a ring or two if he sticks it out with the organization.

I think he definitely wins a ring in 2011, but I'd be iffy about the other years because I don't think Miami would be a good fit for Kobe. I certaint don't think it'd be easy for him to win a ring in 2012 with just him, Wade, and absolutely no inside presence for nearly 2 rounds. The Heat would get crushed in the paint and on the glass. In 2013 Wade and Bosh really struggled most of the playoffs, so that's far from a gimme either. 2014 no chance, that team was finished.

So 1 ring, maybe 1-2 additional ones. How do you think he does in '12 & '13?

BigKAT

08-21-2016, 12:32 PM

I think he definitely wins a ring in 2011, but I'd be iffy about the other years because I don't think Miami would be a good fit for Kobe. I certaint don't think it'd be easy for him to win a ring in 2012 with just him, Wade, and absolutely no inside presence for nearly 2 rounds. The Heat would get crushed in the paint and on the glass. In 2013 Wade and Bosh really struggled most of the playoffs, so that's far from a gimme either. 2014 no chance, that team was finished.

So 1 ring, maybe 1-2 additional ones. How do you think he does in '12 & '13?

Honestly I meant all these years considering he is a Cavs lifer.
And that there isn't a Lebron superteam in the east in his way.

But to your question, if I put him in the HEAT situation,
I think he loses in 11' and 13'.

SouBeachTalents

08-21-2016, 12:35 PM

Honestly I meant all these years considering he is a Cavs lifer.
And that there isn't a Lebron superteam in the east in his way.

But to your question, if I put him in the HEAT situation,
I think he loses in 11' and 13'.

Why do you think he loses '11 but wins in '12?

Hey Yo

08-21-2016, 12:47 PM

Hypothetical situation-
Let's say 18 years old Kobe Bryant is drafted into the 2003 Draft with the 1# pick.

Does his competetive drive make him the greatest cav of all time?
Or does he fumble and demands a trade/quits after the first contract is due?

Discuss.
He tells the Cavs to not even draft him like he told all other teams not named the Lakers.

34-24 Footwork

08-21-2016, 02:38 PM

GimmeThat

08-21-2016, 03:16 PM

say he starts becoming an all-star going into the 2nd year as before, I think it's a matter when he reaches the final.

free agencies play a big role, and lets say he received the same type of media attention Lebron has. Maybe he goes through a few scoring outburst, and eventually at some point the franchise spends so much money. That would have been gone draft picks stayed so he could contend.

Trollsmasher

08-21-2016, 03:32 PM

Kobe becomes the first all star to never make it to the playoffs once in his career

Doranku

08-21-2016, 03:34 PM

Not sure, but he definitely wouldn't abandon his team at the first opportunity to play with the second best player in the league and a top 5 PF.

BigKAT

08-21-2016, 03:34 PM

Why do you think he loses '11 but wins in '12?

Because I believe that Dallas was filled with Veterans of high quality like J.Kidd, Dirk and even Tyson Chandler who were ready for the big stage.

While OKC in 12' were mostly not ready for the big lights. (Sans durant.)

And I think Bryant feasts on the later.

Hey Yo

08-21-2016, 03:45 PM

Kobe, Bosh and Wade????

Miami 4peats...and may actually win like 5 rings in a 7 year span.

This board is full of people who can't think straight when it comes to Kobe because they're blinded by irrational hatred.
The starting 5 of BIbby,Kobe, Wade, Bosh and Anthony wins it all in 2011? With no bench?....

:roll:

Hey Yo

08-21-2016, 03:50 PM

Not sure, but he definitely wouldn't abandon his team at the first opportunity to play with the second best player in the league and a top 5 PF.
First opportunity?

James signed an extension with the Cavs before his rookie deal was up.

We already know Kobe wouldn't have even signed to play for the Cavs. He wanted the easy way

tamaraw08

08-21-2016, 10:45 PM

Great discussion guys, I applaude the very smart takes of most of you here especially you and Tpols. No silly bantering by biased fanatics etc. anyway just one factor too is the coaching aspect. Kobe really benefited from Phil and his staff while imp, Lebron had better player support in Miami and less competition while at Cleveland.
Two incredibly great players and yet different types. One is a killer who need specialist role players like Fisher and Pau and a smart coach, another one needs great finishers like Wade and Kyrie.

tamaraw08

08-21-2016, 11:52 PM

Because I believe that Dallas was filled with Veterans of high quality like J.Kidd, Dirk and even Tyson Chandler who were ready for the big stage.

While OKC in 12' were mostly not ready for the big lights. (Sans durant.)

And I think Bryant feasts on the later.
I'm not sure I agree, I still remember Kobe out scoring the entire Dallas team for 3 quarters and when he lead a 4th quarter comeback from 26 pets albeit they're ref season games... Kobe on the other hand was bothered by the size and quickness of KD...what I find interesting is Dallas also had success in defending KD before last playoffs

tamaraw08

08-22-2016, 12:02 AM

Kobe becomes the first all star to never make it to the playoffs once in his career
Smh:facepalm
You just have to try to ruin this thread.
Do you even remember Smush Parker? How great was Kwame as a starting center? These 2 guys started for the Lakers and their 3rd best player was Luke Walton and they were One rebound shy of upsetting the Suns....

AintNoSunshine

08-22-2016, 02:36 AM

He was drafted by Charlotte and how did that pan out again? He will demand a trade to ride someone's coattail

Akrazotile

08-22-2016, 02:52 AM

Goes down as the 12th greatest Cav ever. No doubt in my mind.

aj1987

08-22-2016, 03:14 AM

Holy shit you're one of the worst posters here, Kobe doesn't come CLOSE to winning a ring on the Cavs from '04-'10
Yep. Makes me wonder if the dude is actually mentally challenged.

Straight up replacing LeBron with Kobe from '03-'16? I don't think he wins any rings.

'11 - The lineup with Kobe in LeBron's place would be hilariously bad.
'12 - They don't get past the Celtics/Pacers
'13 - Lose to the Pacers
'14 - Lose to the Pacers
'15 - Lose to the Bulls
'16 - Lose to the Raptors

Miami lineups were midget lineups. Going even smaller doesn't make sense at all. Also, Miami and Cleveland benefitted vastly from LeBron's all round game. This is especially true for the Cavs. LeBron's playmaking was crucial.

I think Kobe's best chance of winning a ring on LeBron led teams would be in '07. If he gets past the Pistons. Kobe historically played terrible against EC teams.

BigKAT

08-22-2016, 04:59 AM

Yep. Makes me wonder if the dude is actually mentally challenged.

Straight up replacing LeBron with Kobe from '03-'16? I don't think he wins any rings.

'11 - The lineup with Kobe in LeBron's place would be hilariously bad.
'12 - They don't get past the Celtics/Pacers
'13 - Lose to the Pacers
'14 - Lose to the Pacers
'15 - Lose to the Bulls
'16 - Lose to the Raptors

Miami lineups were midget lineups. Going even smaller doesn't make sense at all. Also, Miami and Cleveland benefitted vastly from LeBron's all round game. This is especially true for the Cavs. LeBron's playmaking was crucial.

I think Kobe's best chance of winning a ring on LeBron led teams would be in '07. If he gets past the Pistons. Kobe historically played terrible against EC teams.

This is a common mistake on this thread.
But I mean that Kobe stays with the Cavs.
Not follows Lebron's exact route.

Cav Lifer.
Do you see him take a ring if he sticks it out?

I kinda think he does in 12'. Considering he'd then be in his prime and that the SG position is the worst in depth, it'd allow so many options on finding other all stars to couple with him.

I mean if you have a star PG its enough for the playoffs, maybe.
Star SG and you got something special. (Dunno how I feel about Harden. Guy has results mostly, if he fixed his d, then dayum.)

aj1987

08-22-2016, 05:21 AM

Cav Lifer.
Do you see him take a ring if he sticks it out?
Yes. '07 would be my guess. I really don't see him winning another ring though.

I kinda think he does in 12'. Considering he'd then be in his prime and that the SG position is the worst in depth, it'd allow so many options on finding other all stars to couple with him.
LeBron/KD would destroy the Kobe Cav's. Remember that the Cavs won't be able to draft Kyrie.

I mean if you have a star PG its enough for the playoffs, maybe.
The Cavs had absolutely NO depth and a terrible coach.

BigKAT

08-22-2016, 08:29 AM

Yes. '07 would be my guess. I really don't see him winning another ring though.

LeBron/KD would destroy the Kobe Cav's. Remember that the Cavs won't be able to draft Kyrie.

The Cavs had absolutely NO depth and a terrible coach.

I dunno about 07'.

I don't think Kobe grew rapidly enough.
I think Kobe is a guy you definetly win a championship with,
But we're talking about 07'-12' Kobe (Normal timeline.)
If he was only drafted in 03' (In our prediction) That'd make him the equal of real time 01' Kobe. And I don't think you can take the championship with that guy in Cle.

raprap

08-22-2016, 08:38 AM

BigKAT

08-22-2016, 11:58 AM

Assuming he doesn't leave... during 11-14, the Cavs wont get the 1st picks. So they'd be stuck in attracting FAs to improve their team. Cleveland isn't really a hotspot for FAs and Kobe doesn't struck me as a guy for recruiting. so 0 rings. Maybe a finals appearance.

No Dr.Buss.
No Phill Jackson,

But I still think the Cavs Management manage to pry one big Allstar through trades or FA.

I'm thinking maybe a disgruntled Garnett somehow,
Or maybe even Chris Paul or someone.

Either way,
I see him peaking at 2 finals appearence, one ring.
Likely a close loss, a win and then I think they fall off a cliff and lose in the ECF or ECS

Keno

08-22-2016, 12:02 PM

cavs would be in the lottery every single year unless they get a dominant center/front court or if kobe gets traded else where.

tpols

08-22-2016, 12:08 PM

cavs would be in the lottery every single year unless they get a dominant center/front court or if kobe gets traded else where.

haha, the cavs were always a top rebounding and defensive team around LeBron.. and in 2007 and 2008 were the best offensive rebounding team in the league.. you dummys would be saying the same shit about stacked frontcourts if kobe were to win with cleveland.

aj1987

08-22-2016, 02:52 PM

haha, the cavs were always a top rebounding and defensive team around LeBron.. and in 2007 and 2008 were the best offensive rebounding team in the league.. you dummys would be saying the same shit about stacked frontcourts if kobe were to win with cleveland.
:biggums:

You think having a really good FC is only about rebounding? The Lakers FC shut down Dwight. He was practically useless in the Finals.

The '08 Cavs were 11th defensively. The only time they were a top 3 defense was when LeBron was runner up DPOY. Some of those Cavs teams were on par with the '05 and '06 Lakers. We all know what Kobe was capable to doing with a terrible supporting cast. :rolleyes:

Kobe, at best, has a chance to win a SINGLE ring, if that. You're posting Kobe numbers against WC opponents, but he has historically be dreadful against EC teams. Hence his paltry numbers in the Finals. IIRC, Kobe had an efficiency of ~51% TS against EC teams from '00-'03. The '09 Cavs FC >> '07 Cavs FC as well.