How Athletic Was 93-98 MJ?

[CTbasketball92]

Wondering for those who watched live. From what I can tell, MJ was basically a 6'6" Westbrook until 1991 or so, that's when his dunks stopped looking as ridiculous (not as many near-foul line off two feet dunks) and he started doing more layups. He was still a super-athlete til' 91 I'd guess, but how athletic was MJ from '93 to the end of the second 3peat in '98? Did he completely lose his bounce? how quick was he during that time period?

[iamgine]

He was like 2016 Lebron.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan was still insanely athletic in '92. Dunks started to become less frequent. Played smarter. More and more using post up game. Less and less offense off the dribble drive.

He was still probably the best athlete in 93 as well, but he traded off muscle for reduced bounce. Top of the line in the league most likely, yet still.

'96 he had a noticeable decline, quickness as well. Added upper body mass for almost exclusively a post up game. But it took away his legs by the Finals. Dropped weight going into the 97 season, regained a small amount of hops but even more quickness.

By the '98 games in France before the season it was evident all his insane aerial athleticism was gone. Still panther like quickness.

[Paul George 24]

Wondering for those who watched live. From what I can tell, MJ was basically a 6'6" Westbrook until 1991 or so, that's when his dunks stopped looking as ridiculous (not as many near-foul line off two feet dunks) and he started doing more layups. He was still a super-athlete til' 91 I'd guess, but how athletic was MJ from '93 to the end of the second 3peat in '98? Did he completely lose his bounce? how quick was he during that time period?
MORE ATHLETIC THAN PRIME LEBRON

[ClipperRevival]

That is MJ from the ages of 30-35, so he was obviously past his physical peak.

MJ really had 2 body types. Pre-1990 and post-1990. Of course he decided to bulk up after the 1989 playoffs because of the Bad Boy Pistons and their level of physicality. Pre-1990 MJ was the best athlete I had ever seen on a bball court in terms of fluidity, agility, coordination, reflexes, no wasted motion and quickness (for his size). I mean there is a REASON why this guy has hundred of moves that no one has been able to duplicate. His ability to contort his body in so many different ways and get off numerous launch points is evidence of this. No one has really come close to his level of in the air agility.

Post-1990 MJ was when he started to bulk up his body. And when you add muscle and bulk up, you sacrifice some the of agility/fluidity/explosiveness, which was the case for MJ. But I would still say he was the best athlete in the game even up until 1993.

1996 is when you can argue there were other athletes as well rounded as him, especially when it comes to raw, explosiveness (younger guys off course). But MJ still had rare coordination, reflexes, agility and quickness. He just relied a ton more on his post game (more specifically fade away jumper). So MJ really changed his game to maximize his talents. He knew he wasn't as explosive so he adjusted.

By 1998, at the age of 35, he obviously slowed down even more athletically but he was still elite.

As a testament to his natural athleticism, even at the ages of 38-40, he still had enough athleticism to be an effective scorer in terms of initial quickness. That's saying A LOT.

[CTbasketball92]

That is MJ from the ages of 30-35, so he was obviously past his physical peak.

MJ really had 2 body types. Pre-1990 and post-1990. Of course he decided to bulk up after the 1989 playoffs because of the Bad Boy Pistons and their level of physicality. Pre-1990 MJ was the best athlete I had ever seen on a bball court in terms of fluidity, agility, coordination, reflexes, no wasted motion and quickness (for his size). I mean there is a REASON why this guy has hundred of moves that no one has been able to duplicate. His ability to contort his body in so many different ways and get off numerous launch points is evidence of this. No one has really come close to his level of in the air agility.

Post-1990 MJ was when he started to bulk up his body. And when you add muscle and bulk up, you sacrifice some the of agility/fluidity/explosiveness, which was the case for MJ. But I would still say he was the best athlete in the game even up until 1993.

1996 is when you can argue there were other athletes as well rounded as him, especially when it comes to raw, explosiveness (younger guys off course). But MJ still had rare coordination, reflexes, agility and quickness. He just relied a ton more on his post game (more specifically fade away jumper). So MJ really changed his game to maximize his talents. He knew he wasn't as explosive so he adjusted.

By 1998, at the age of 35, he obviously slowed down even more athletically but he was still elite.

As a testament to his natural athleticism, even at the ages of 38-40, he still had enough athleticism to be an effective scorer in terms of initial quickness. That's saying A LOT.

This is pretty much what I thought. And yeah, wizards MJ had a really quick first step and great aerial agility. That version of MJ prob. be the quickest SG in the league out of a triple threat.

[Trollsmasher]

still far more athletic than any defender facing him

[Smoke117]

Jordan was still insanely athletic in '92. Dunks started to become less frequent. Played smarter. More and more using post up game. Less and less offense off the dribble drive.

He was still probably the best athlete in 93 as well, but he traded off muscle for reduced bounce. Top of the line in the league most likely, yet still.

'96 he had a noticeable decline, quickness as well. Added upper body mass for almost exclusively a post up game. But it took away his legs by the Finals. Dropped weight going into the 97 season, regained a small amount of hops but even more quickness.

By the '98 games in France before the season it was evident all his insane aerial athleticism was gone. Still panther like quickness.

David Robinson was clearly the best athlete in the league by then.

[Thorpesaurous]

Yeah, I would push Jordan's athletic peak right through the baseball break. Much of the reduction in the bigger plays were a result in a change in offensive scheme, which also happened to coincide with his winning.

[ClipperRevival]

This is pretty much what I thought. And yeah, wizards MJ had a really quick first step and great aerial agility. That version of MJ prob. be the quickest SG in the league out of a triple threat.

Actually, Wizards MJ was probably pushing 230-235 lbs, which was about 30-35 lbs above his peak playing weight. So he didn't have much aerial agility left. He was like almost everyone else by then, pretty much a plant and explode type player going in one direction. But he did still possess rare quickness for his age.

[Dragonyeuw]

Actually, Wizards MJ was probably pushing 230-235 lbs, which was about 30-35 lbs above his peak playing weight. So he didn't have much aerial agility left. He was like almost everyone else by then, pretty much a plant and explode type player going in one direction. But he did still possess rare quickness for his age.
I remember when MJ blew by Garnett and put up 35 mainly with KG on him, who's considered one of the great defenders ever. And yet we have fools sayin 29 year old MJ wouldn't flat-out dominate today.

[ClipperRevival]

I remember when MJ blew by Garnett and put up 35 mainly with KG on him, who's considered one of the great defenders ever. And yet we have fools sayin 29 year old MJ wouldn't flat-out dominate today.

Can't really blame the kids. Ignorance is bliss. Heck, if I was a kid today and only saw LeBron, I would be drinking the LeBron kool-aid too and be convinced that he might be the GOAT. But these youngsters just missed out on the true GOAT. The people who saw both know what's up.

[3ball]

Why don't we look at the stats

[3ball]

We have stats that are good gauges of athleticism

[3ball]

I'll post them shortly

[3ball]

.
Dunks Per Season




Kobe 2001:. 49
Kobe 2002:. 88
Kobe 2003:. 116
Kobe 2004:. 51
Kobe 2005:. 53
Kobe 2006:. 59
Kobe 2007:. 59
Kobe 2009:. 80
Kobe 2009:. 59
Kobe 2010:. 36
Kobe 2011:. 38
Kobe 2012:. 28
Kobe 2013:. 51

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html#shooting::none



Tmac 2001:. 80
Tmac 2002:. 114
Tmac 2003:. 79
Tmac 2004:. 53
Tmac 2005:. 62
Tmac 2006:. 28
Tmac 2006:. 31
Tmac 2007:. 43

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgratr01.html#shooting::none




Westbrook 2015:. 48
Westbrook 2016:. 69

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01.html#shooting::none




Vince Carter 2006:. 87 (career high)

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cartevi01.html#shooting::none




Jordan 1988 (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U):. 158
Jordan 1989 (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U):. 117
Jordan 1990 (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U):. 153
Jordan 1991 (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V):. 126
Jordan 1992 (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck):. 98
Jordan 1993 (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U):. 94
Jordan 1996 (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j82vl1&s=8#.VI_5qyvF_Ck):. 92
Jordan 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 49
Jordan 1998 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 89

Source: Click on each year above for source data (76'er media guides and nba.com - the links might work best in Internet Explorer)



Stats: Jordan got 89 dunks at 35 years old, which would rank #2 in Kobe and Tmac's career, and #1 in Westbrook, Vince Carter, and Paul George's career.

In Jordan's prime, he routinely got over 100 dunks per year - the only wings from today's era that match Jordan's yearly 100+ dunk output is Lebron and Durant, maybe Wade - that's it.


Eye Test: guys like Kobe and Westbrook can't dunk like this in their PRIME, let alone at 33-35 years old:

https://media.giphy.com/media/HE2sZdIJSyPFm/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/zqMGGfL6egfRe/giphy.gif


League-wide dunk frequency by year:.

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12555171&postcount=86

[ClipperRevival]

Dunks are just one measure of "athleticism". No one in the history of the game came even CLOSE to matching MJ's in-air ability to contort and twist his body in almost any imaginable way to get off a shot. MJ literally has hundreds of these plays that another GOAT level player might've done a few times in their entire career. It's a joke how supremely athletic MJ was.

Some guys looked as explosive (like Westbrook/Rose) because when they gathered before jumping, they had a deeper knee bend and a hesitation. So the observer can anticipate the explosion coming. And when it happens, people say, "WOW!" But with MJ, he had no hitch. It was just almost one motion with very little knee bend. But the results were just as explosive. So the untrained eye will believe MJ wasn't as explosive because there was no straining. The hardest thing to do in anything is to make greatness look easy. That's what MJ did. He can easily fool the untrained eye.

[ClipperRevival]

There's also the issue of 1 and 2 foot jumping.

1 foot jumping is usually reserved for transition when you need to beat your opponent to the basket (could include half court situations too. The point being, you are trying to beat your opponent to the basket). That means being able to beat your defender horizontally. I've never seen MJ caught from behind when he was ahead or even with a defender chasing, including any PGs. Check out MJ's 250 dunks. Most of it is in transition. Witness the sheer speed he runs with the ball. No one catches him. (You'll also see that no one turned defense into offense quicker than him).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9vp1LGD_38

2 foot leaping is usually reserved for half court situations or tight quarters when you need to beat your opponent vertically and need max vert. Anyone with a brain can also attest to MJ being GOAT at this.

Fact is, few players in the history of the game have been GOAT level at jumping off both ways.

[3ball]

Some guys looked as explosive (like Westbrook/Rose) because when they gathered before jumping, they had a deeper knee bend and a hesitation. So the observer can anticipate the explosion coming. And when it happens, people say, "WOW!" But with MJ, he had no hitch. It was just almost one motion with very little knee bend. But the results were just as explosive. So the untrained eye will believe MJ wasn't as explosive because there was no straining. The hardest thing to do in anything is to make greatness look easy. That's what MJ did. He can easily fool the untrained eye


Great post, and here's an example of what you're talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=19m22s


Jordan barely flexes on the jump, so many fans might not respect it that much, even though that dunk shows more explosiveness than Westbrook or Kobe's dunks where they're straining super-hard to be explosive

[Indian guy]

MJ's more so a 6'6 Wade with Kobe's skill-level. Westbrook's a different animal altogether in certain aspects. He has far superior quickness and explosiveness off the dribble.

Anyway, '93 is really the first season where you can see a noticeable decline in MJ's athleticism. That long '92 postseason + Olympics clearly took its toll. Although still quite athletic, but that freakish explosiveness(particularly leaping-wise) was gone. But the good thing for MJ was that his body pretty much plateaued after that. 96-98 is really not that different from '93. He's slightly less quick but definitely stronger. And that first step is still very much there. 93-98 MJ would still be the most athletic SG in the league today.

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ's more so a 6'6 Wade with Kobe's skill-level.
I've always maintained this ...

Even down to the wide shoulders. Thus why both MJ and Wade played through contact better. Performing better against more rugged eastern conference defenses.

Prime MJ '88 - '93 is a perfect storm of prime Wade and Kobe combined as a player and athlete. Throw in more hops than both of them, and that's Mike.