Lets cut the bullsht.How many rings does MJ win if Pippen retired after his rookie yr

[You Cant Ban Me]

i give em one in 93

[Real14]

He would probably go to the finals, maybe.

[GrapeApe]

Are the Bulls playing 4 on 5 or is Pippen being replaced? Joking obviously, but whenever these type of hypotheticals arise, people tend to forget that the player being removed would be replaced with another NBA player. It wouldn't just be an empty hole in the lineup. With a competent SF, Jordan still wins multiple titles. Probably not 6, but definitely a few.

[Trollsmasher]

The only factor we can use in this analysis is Jordan's career PO (and also overall) record without Pippen

Let us extrapolate - 1-9 without Pip over 3 postseason runs - 3-24 over the next 8 runs after Pip retires

(I rounded up MJ's win from 2.5 to give him some benefit of doubt)

That doesn't look like enough wins to get some rings

[ClipperRevival]

LOL. You LeBron fans make me laugh time and time again.

What other player gets judged for their 1st 3 seasons in the league like MJ? Does anyone in here judge LeBron for his 1st 3 seasons in the league? Of course not. Why? Because anyone with a brain knows that almost no player has maximized their talents by their 3rd year. But here we are with MJ, people nitpicking away.

This just proves he's all in your heads. He's got LeBron fans shook day and night.


MJ's regular season numbers pre-Pippen (1985 - 1987, 3 seasons):

31.7 PPG, 27.8 PER, 5.6 RPG, 5.0 APG, 2.6 SPG, 1.2 BPG

MJ's playoff numbers pre-Pippen (1985 - 1987, 3 seasons):

35.5 PPG, 27.4 PER, 6.3 RPG, 6.9 APG, 2.4 SPG, 1.5 BPG


GOAT gonna GOAT. Keep reaching for nothing. :hammertime:

[Trollsmasher]

LOL. You LeBron fans make me laugh time and time again.

What other player gets judged for their 1st 3 seasons in the league like MJ? Does anyone in here judge LeBron for his 1st 3 seasons in the league? Of course not. Why? Because anyone with a brain knows that almost no player has maximized their talents by their 3rd year. But here we are with MJ, people nitpicking away.

This just proves he's all in your heads. He's got LeBron fans shook day and night.


MJ's regular season numbers pre-Pippen (1985 - 1987, 3 seasons):

31.7 PPG, 27.8 PER, 5.6 RPG, 5.0 APG, 2.6 SPG, 1.2 BPG

MJ's playoff numbers pre-Pippen (1985 - 1987, 3 seasons):

35.5 PPG, 27.4 PER, 6.3 RPG, 6.9 APG, 2.4 SPG, 1.5 BPG


GOAT gonna GOAT. Keep reaching for nothing. :hammertime:
MJ has come out of college as a complete player, unlike LeBron who went to draft from high school. MJ's peak has essentially started in his second season after he came back from the injury, at age where LeBron got the Finals for the first time:applause:

Also, a player holding GOAT status shouldn't need such shallow excuses

[ClipperRevival]

MJ has come out of college as a complete player, unlike LeBron who went to draft from high school. MJ's peak has essentially started in his second season after he came back from the injury, at age where LeBron got the Finals for the first time:applause:

Also, a player holding GOAT status shouldn't need such shallow excuses

I guess you're right. MJ is overrated.

[Hey Yo]

"Jordan always felt Pippen was something special. Michael realized how easy it was to play with him and how he helped make his teammates better. It's often said Jordan needed Pippen and Pippen needed Jordan. I'm not sure Jordan didn't need Pippen more than Pippen needed Jordan."

--Tex Winter

[I know you are]

Clearly Jordan held back to give Pippen his moments. If Jordan didn't defer to Pippen so much, 7 rings would not have been out of question for Jordan.

[warriorfan]

"Jordan always felt Pippen was something special. Michael realized how easy it was to play with him and how he helped make his teammates better. It's often said Jordan needed Pippen and Pippen needed Jordan. I'm not sure Jordan didn't need Pippen more than Pippen needed Jordan."

--Tex Winter
At least he didn't need DWade and Adam Silver

[sekachu]

i give em one in 93



MJ made pippen into superstar. In this case MJ would make another superstar around him. Same result.

[BigKAT]

Three rings, Four rings. Something in that area seems about right.

Of course he lucked into pippen , but I imagine they'd find their way to contention without him too. Probably through a different player.

[Sarcastic]

Probably 7. He gets the ring in 1990. Replacement SF does not get migraines in game 7 sabotaging his chance at a ring.

[Smoke117]

Are the Bulls playing 4 on 5 or is Pippen being replaced? Joking obviously, but whenever these type of hypotheticals arise, people tend to forget that the player being removed would be replaced with another NBA player. It wouldn't just be an empty hole in the lineup. With a competent SF, Jordan still wins multiple titles. Probably not 6, but definitely a few.

Yeah, but we don't know who he would be replaced with. Jordan lucked out in that Pippen was the perfect compliment to his game (and the triangle in general)...did all the dirty work and unselfish to a fault. Let's remember...the best player in the world was replaced by ****ing Pete Myers.

[LostCause]

This is an obvious troll thread meant for the same simple-minded individuals to enter and circle jerk their terrible logic and ideas, but I'll entertain it anyway

Hypothetical threads like this are silly because there is legitimately no way of knowing, and no one will do the work to get a reasonable assumption (ie, who Krause was targeting in future drafts that would replace Pippen, Who was ready for a larger role but never got it with MJ/Scottie duo dominating etc)


MJ has come out of college as a complete player, unlike LeBron who went to draft from high school. MJ's peak has essentially started in his second season after he came back from the injury, at age where LeBron got the Finals for the first time

Probably one of the dumbest things I've read since Dray n Klay's thread that wound up getting him banned. Not only do you display you don't know what a "peak" is, you also use some bad logic. MJ's "peak" was the 88-89 season, his 5th in the league. Lebron didn't even make the playoffs his first 2 years in the league so by your logic we can extrapolate that he goes on to never make the playoffs in his career. Luckily, we all know that sort of logic is stupid, except maybe you

Anyway, Chicago continued to improve as a team while Jordan improved as a player. Between players growing and Krause getting rid of the drug-addicted/lazy bums that were on the roster when Jordan was drafted, there's no doubt the Bulls would've still risen however its debatable just how far they go.

Without Pippen, the Bulls may not win 3 in a row and Jordan may not retire when he did for either case. Remember the feuding with management was largely why he left the 2nd time, and Pippen's lowballed contracts had rubbed Jordan the wrong way. So there's a chance he wins more rings by playing more years, there's a chance his statistical dominance is even greater if he controls the offense over entire seasons rather than Pippen running the triangle (As he did here (http://www.it1me.com/video?id=60XIzix3PlE&ttl=Bulls%20%40%20Lakers%20-%20March%201989.%20PG%20Jordan%2016%20assists) to amazing results) or he wins less. No way to know really

I think the most rational choice is a sort of middle ground. Assuming the Bulls get a solid wing who can pass, score and defend at decent levels, Jordans individual numbers will go up as well as other players becoming more featured, maybe at the cost of 2 championships. Kukoc would probably develop more and into a bigger star than he actually did, or Jordan dislikes him because he's soft and they bring in someone else

[TAZORAC]

Depends on who you replace Pippen with.

[jstern]

It depends on who they replace him with.

Look, I agree that if Pippen got injured for every post seasons the Bulls would not win any championships. But the way Pippen is viewed now simply on name recognition is above and beyond how he was viewed back then. He's not a top ten GOAT level kind of player, but that's the value that his name has these days.

But think back to the 90s, Jordan was such an out of this world talent. Such a clear cut Top 2 GOAT type talent before he even won his first championship. That Pippen's perceived value was no where near it is today. He was underrated.

Today Pippen is viewed as if he was a top 3 player in the world back when he was playing, but back then he was seen a very good side kick.

[Smoke117]

It depends on who they replace him with.

Look, I agree that if Pippen got injured for every post seasons the Bulls would not win any championships. But the way Pippen is viewed now simply on name recognition is above and beyond how he was viewed back then. He's not a top ten GOAT level kind of player, but that's the value that his name has these days.

But think back to the 90s, Jordan was such an out of this world talent. Such a clear cut Top 2 GOAT type talent before he even won his first championship. That Pippen's perceived value was no where near it is today. He was underrated.

Today Pippen is viewed as if he was a top 3 player in the world back when he was playing, but back then he was seen a very good side kick.

What the **** are you talking about you ****ing baboon? Who the is saying scottie is a top 10 goat player? You're a goddamn retard.

[jstern]

What the **** are you talking about you ****ing baboon? Who the is saying scottie is a top 10 goat player? You're a goddamn retard.

So funny that someone with a Pippen avatar would get so emotional as to call me a ****ing baboon. You must be a really, really, huge Pippen fan.

I didn't say that people say that Pippen is a top ten player of all time. I have not seen one list where people put him there. My point was about how Pippen was underrated when he played with Jordan, because Jordan overshadowed him completely. There was never any question, any doubt as to who was the man, and as such Pippen was just looked upon as a sidekick. But now his name is so overvalued, that young people, particular Jordan haters who are Kobe or Lebron stans prop Pippen up as if he was a Kevin Durant type of superstar when he played.

I remember around 8 years ago, a Kobe stans who was arguing that Kobe was the GOAT used Steve Kerr as an example that Jordan played with all time greats. This Kobe stans 8 years ago was surprised to know that Steve Kerr was a bench player, and had to back track. To him Steve Kerr was a big name because it's a name that he heard all the time. So since it was a big name that he was familiar with, he assumed that Kerr was a hall of fame type player. I see something similar with Pippen who is a hall of fame type player, where younger fans who love Kobe and Lebron prop him up as if he was a top 3 player in the league like a Kevin Durant.

[Smoke117]

So funny that someone with a Pippen avatar would get so emotional as to call me a ****ing baboon. You must be a really, really, huge Pippen fan.

I didn't say that people say that Pippen is a top ten player of all time. I have not seen one list where people put him there. My point was about how Pippen was underrated when he played with Jordan, because Jordan overshadowed him completely. There was never any question, any doubt as to who was the man, and as such Pippen was just looked upon as a sidekick. But now his name is so overvalued, that young people, particular Jordan haters who are Kobe or Lebron stans prop Pippen up as if he was a Kevin Durant type of superstar when he played.

I remember around 8 years ago, a Kobe stans who was arguing that Kobe was the GOAT used Steve Kerr as an example that Jordan played with all time greats. This Kobe stans 8 years ago was surprised to know that Steve Kerr was a bench player, and had to back track. To him Steve Kerr was a big name because it's a name that he heard all the time. So since it was a big name that he was familiar with, he assumed that Kerr was a hall of fame type player. I see something similar with Pippen who is a hall of fame type player, where younger fans who love Kobe and Lebron prop him up as if he was a top 3 player in the league like a Kevin Durant.

That you played with a greater player doesn't make your accomplishments any lesser you ****ing mongoloid. This why ish is such a joke...so many of you casual ****ing morons who think that if you're the best player on a team that's all that matters and you carried them to championships. Ugh...there has never been a bigger group with such a pathetic basketball IQ as you ****ers. You are seriosuly bringing up steve kerr...what the **** does that scrub have to do with Scottie Pippen. Shut your ****ing mouth.

[3ball]

.
Lebron 2016V Finals:. 30/11/9 with 4.5 turnovers
Jordan 91-93' Finals:. i36/7/8i with 3.4 turnovers


Jordan's 1.1 fewer turnovers erases his 1 fewer assist, so the comparison boils down to Lebron's 4 defensive rebounds versus Jordan's 6 more points on better efficiency.

Obviously, Jordan's 6 points on better efficiency is more important - Lebron would be on another level if he averaged 6 more points with better efficiency.

Also, Jordan scored 15 ppg more than his 2nd option, compared to only 1 ppg for Lebron - so Jordan faced greater defensive attention, yet he still made all the game-winning plays for Pippen, whereas Kyrie made several for Lebron.

[jstern]

That you played with a greater player doesn't make your accomplishments any lesser you ****ing mongoloid. This why ish is such a joke...so many of you casual ****ing morons who think that if you're the best player on a team that's all that matters and you carried them to championships. Ugh...there has never been a bigger group with such a pathetic basketball IQ as you ****ers. You are seriosuly bringing up steve kerr...what the **** does that scrub have to do with Scottie Pippen. Shut your ****ing mouth.
I had to quit reading your post a quarter in because your extreme emotions doesn't allow you to understand a simple point.

[Smoke117]

I had to quit reading your post a quarter in because your extreme emotions doesn't allow you to understand a simple point.

Having a colorful vocabulary doesn't make me emotional, playboy. I guess you ish posters are too moronic to realize that.

[3ball]

That you played with a greater player doesn't make your accomplishments any lesser you ****ing mongoloid.


What's wrong with a mongoloid..

Also, each of Lebron's 3 rings were won with 2 superstars - otoh, Jordan's 3-peated with just 1 superstar, which is why his first 3 rings required 30% more scoring and more assists than Lebron's 3 rings:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369


Btw, if Lebron had today's Sixers cast and played in the tough conference like the West, he would be in the same situation young Jordan was in (no talent supporting cast in a tough conference).. But instead, Lebron's early casts had a 2-time all-star, a 15 ppg all-defensive wing, and played in a WEAK conference.. So he clearly had the easier path than MJ even before he team-hopped.

[greymatter]

No need to even bring up Pippen when considering Jordan's playoff success. He never made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs without either Grant or Rodman.

Jordan never wins jack without Phil Jackson managing his ego and putting the perfect utility players in Pip, Grant/Rodman around him. Jordan's stat stuffing was exactly like Westbrook's when Durant was injured...didn't translate very well into wins.

Among the all time greats, he's the lowest in +wins after joining his team.

Bird 29-> 61 (+32)
Magic 47-> 60 (+13)
Shaq 21-> 41 (+20)
Wilt 32-> 49 (+17)
Oscar 19-> 33 (+14)
Kareem 27-> 56 (+29)

Jordan 27-> 38 (+11)

Russell and Duncan can't be tallied because Russell only played 48 games and Duncan joined a Spurs team that tanked after Drob got injured.

[LostCause]

Shaq (Lakers): 53 -> 56 (3 wins)

Damn, Shaq must've gotten way worse and had an insignificant impact

[Sarcastic]

Correlation does not equal causation :hammerhead:

[Snarky Narc]

7/7

[Gileraracer]

All cause he's the GOAT

[DingDengDong]

He doesn't do his first retirement and still wins six, but in different years.