Let's compare MJ and Lebron's early supporting casts [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Hey Yo

08-22-2016, 04:59 PM

"Pippen shot better tonight (8 for 16) and scored 20 points. More important, he limited Magic Johnson to 4-for-13 shooting from the field and 14 points over all.

Pippen, who was matched against James Worthy at the start of the game, switched to Johnson with 4 minutes 5 seconds remaining in the first quarter after Jordan had picked up his second foul.

"Pippen did a great job on me," Johnson said. "Once Michael got into early foul trouble, you had to expect they would make that switch.

"They were trying wear me out or take the ball out of my hands, take your pick. Scottie is more physical than Michael so the matchup was a little different." Full-Court Pressure

Pippen said, "I was trying to defend Magic full court so he could not pick apart of our offense.

With Jordan free of the burden of trying to guard Johnson, he scored 23 of his 33 points in the second half, including 14 in the final quarter to send the Chicago Stadium crowd of 18,676 into a frenzy.

"If I had a vote in that first championship for MVP it would have been Scottie. He brought his whole game and everyone could see. The way he played Magic and made him turn and turn and turn and made him work like that was the difference, especially after we lost the first game."
--Horace Grant

"Michael returned from the 1992 Olympic games raving about Scottie's performance. Before the summer, Michael had regarded Pippen as the most talented member of his supporting cast. But after watching him outplay Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler and other future Hall of Famers in Barcelona, Michael realized that Scottie was the best all-around player on what many consider the best basketball team ever assembled. Scottie, Michael had to admit, had even outshone him in several of the games."

--Phil Jackson

3ball

08-22-2016, 04:59 PM

You could say the same on Kevin love then.

Love is 27 years old and in his uber-prime - he's the same player today that he was in 2014, when he was all-nba.. The Cavs system simply reduced him to a lesser role.

Otoh, Rodman was 34 years old when he joined the Bulls and on the fast decline - his last all-star game was 1992, so that means he was neither an all-star nor an all-nba defender in 1997 and 1998.

Overall, he averaged 4/8 in 1997 playoffs and didn't even start in 1998 playoffs - that's nowhere near a "beast" like you erroneously stated

3ball

08-22-2016, 05:03 PM

I'd rather have Pippen over ilgauskas

Pippen didn't join the Bulls until 1988, when he came off the bench and averaged 7 ppg.

In 1989, he averaged 14/6 and was nowhere NEAR being a top 3 player at his position like Illgauskas, who was an all-star that averaged 17/9 and 2.2 blocks..

Relative to their competition, 2nd year Pippen was nowhere near all-star Illgauskas - it isn't remotely debateable.

BigKAT

08-22-2016, 05:05 PM

Love is 27 years old and in his uber-prime - he's the same player today that he was in 2014, when he was all-nba.. The Cavs system simply reduced him to a lesser role.

Otoh, Rodman was 34 years old when he joined the Bulls and on the fast decline - his last all-star game was 1992, so that means he was neither an all-star nor an all-nba defender in 1997 and 1998.

Overall, he averaged 4/8 in 1997 playoffs and didn't even start in 1998 playoffs - that's nowhere near a "beast" like you erroneously stated

The guy averaged 15-16 rebounds in 96-98.
And about 11+ in the playoffs. excluding 97.

I didn't see his defense first hand, but a 15 RPG changes the game from side to side. Especially on the offensive end. Anyone who can nab 15+ rebounds for three seasons I consider a Beast. It's not all about offense. Especially when you're the 3rd option on a team with the greatest scorer on earth.

Hey Yo

08-22-2016, 05:06 PM

"It's like Scottie Pippen--when you played the Bulls, you were praying that, 'I hope he guards the other guy tonight.' Because Pippen was one of those guys that could guard the 1, 2 or 3. And you were hoping, 'Okay, I hope he guards the other guy.' I mean how rare is it that you want Michael to guard you?"
--Doc Rivers

3ball

08-22-2016, 05:09 PM

With Jordan free of the burden of trying to guard Johnson

DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENTS BY QUARTER, 1991 FINALS:

Pippen guarded Magic for:

GAME 1: none
GAME 2: 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters
GAME 3: 2nd and 3rd quarters
GAME 4: the last 4 minutes of 4th quarter
GAME 5: none

Here's all 5 games in their entirety:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxxGOqpDLw
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO2ZRhkuVKk
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueGQChyFuU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfjVFGzAbXw
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwqK9B5E2SM

Overall, MJ guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (70%), compared to only 6 of 20 for Pippen (30%) .

3ball

08-22-2016, 05:12 PM

The guy averaged 15-16 rebounds in 96-98.
And about 11+ in the playoffs. excluding 97.

I didn't see his defense first hand, but a 15 RPG changes the game from side to side. Especially on the offensive end. Anyone who can nab 15+ rebounds for three seasons I consider a Beast. It's not all about offense. Especially when you're the 3rd option on a team with the greatest scorer on earth.
4/8 for ENTIRE 1997 playoffs

4/8 for ENTIRE 1998 Finals

wasn't even a starter for 1998 playoffs

No all-defensive teams in 1997 and 1998.

No all-star teams since 1992

NOT A BEAST LIKE YOU SAID - Jordan had to win 2 rings with his PF averaging 8 rebounds

Hey Yo

08-22-2016, 05:14 PM

Facts below:

"Pippen did a great job on me," Johnson said. "Once Michael got into early foul trouble, you had to expect they would make that switch.

"They were trying wear me out or take the ball out of my hands, take your pick. Scottie is more physical than Michael so the matchup was a little different." Full-Court Pressure

Pippen said, "I was trying to defend Magic full court so he could not pick apart of our offense.

With Jordan free of the burden of trying to guard Johnson, he scored 23 of his 33 points in the second half, including 14 in the final quarter to send the Chicago Stadium crowd of 18,676 into a frenzy.

"If I had a vote in that first championship for MVP it would have been Scottie. He brought his whole game and everyone could see. The way he played Magic and made him turn and turn and turn and made him work like that was the difference, especially after we lost the first game."
--Horace Grant

No need for Grant to lie......you OTOH though

3ball

08-22-2016, 05:15 PM

"They were trying wear me out or take the ball out of my hands, take your pick. Scottie is more physical than Michael so the matchup was a little different." Full-Court Pressure

DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENTS BY QUARTER, 1991 FINALS:

Pippen guarded Magic for:

GAME 1: none
GAME 2: 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters
GAME 3: 2nd and 3rd quarters
GAME 4: the last 4 minutes of 4th quarter
GAME 5: none

Here's all 5 games in their entirety:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxxGOqpDLw
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO2ZRhkuVKk
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueGQChyFuU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfjVFGzAbXw
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwqK9B5E2SM

Overall, MJ guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (70%), compared to only 6 of 20 for Pippen (30%) .

BigKAT

08-22-2016, 05:17 PM

4/8 for ENTIRE 1997 playoffs

4/8 for ENTIRE 1998 Finals

wasn't even a starter for 1998 playoffs

No all-defensive teams in 1997 and 1998.

No all-star teams since 1992

NOT A BEAST LIKE YOU SAID - Jordan had to win 2 rings with his PF averaging 8 rebounds

Started 9 games on the 1998 playoffs from what I see here.
And had 34 MPG. Dude.

How is that different from Kevin love on 2016?
He didn't start some of the games and was awful most of the time.

I'm not discrediting Jordan,
I'm just saying he didn't play with a bunch of scrubs.
That was a great team. A team that won 55 games without him man.
Jordan's the goat but stop trying to make it look like he won with the freaking sixers.

Hey Yo

08-22-2016, 05:22 PM

"If I had a vote in that first championship for MVP it would have been Scottie. He brought his whole game and everyone could see. The way he played Magic and made him turn and turn and turn and made him work like that was the difference, especially after we lost the first game."
--Horace Grant

No need for Grant to lie......you OTOH though.

"He's the best defender I've ever seen. I put him in a class with Bobby Jones, Sidney Moncrief and certainly Jordan. But they're different. Jordan, at his position, may have been as good as there ever was. But Scottie could guard more positions than Michael. Scottie can handle more sizes."
--Mike Dunleavy

Like I said before, James didn't have that luxury throughout his career.

"Jordan always felt Pippen was something special. Michael realized how easy it was to play with him and how he helped make his teammates better. It's often said Jordan needed Pippen and Pippen needed Jordan. I'm not sure Jordan didn't need Pippen more than Pippen needed Jordan."
--Tex Winter

"Let me have Scottie. See how I do then."
--Clyde Drexler to Michael Jordan

ShawkFactory

08-22-2016, 05:53 PM

Pippen didn't join the Bulls until 1988, when he came off the bench and averaged 7 ppg.

In 1989, he averaged 14/6 and was nowhere NEAR being a top 3 player at his position like Illgauskas, who was an all-star that averaged 17/9 and 2.2 blocks..

Relative to their competition, 2nd year Pippen was nowhere near all-star Illgauskas - it isn't remotely debateable.
Did this guy just say big Z was a top 3 PF/c in the league in 2005?!

Trollsmasher

08-22-2016, 06:01 PM

Did this guy just say big Z was a top 3 PF/c in the league in 2005?!
if Big Z was a Top 3 PF/C in the league in 2005 then Orlando Woolridge is a top 5 player of all time:lol

BigKAT

08-22-2016, 06:01 PM

Did this guy just say big Z was a top 3 PF/c in the league in 2005?!

Yeah. Pretty much.

SouBeachTalents

08-22-2016, 06:07 PM

Funny how everytime OP makes a thread about MJ, it only emboldens the naysayers out there. I've never seen another user literally get objective posters to turn on one of if not THE most decorated athletes in history.

I don't think 3ball understands that with every thread he creates...it only ends up making Mike look worse. :oldlol:

And it's completely unnecessary. The vast majority still believe Jordan > LeBron, and even that doesn't really get refuted on here. I can't even tell if he's just a Jordan stan or if he hates LeBron, he almost NEVER compares him to other players, 99% of the time it's LeBron

LostCause

08-22-2016, 06:11 PM

Honestly, agenda threads just need to stop. I'm sick of them already and I've only been here for a month

So much more to talk about and discuss that's a lot more productive.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-22-2016, 06:12 PM

And it's completely unnecessary. The vast majority still believe Jordan > LeBron, and even that doesn't really get refuted on here. I can't even tell if he's just a Jordan stan or if he hates LeBron, he almost NEVER compares him to other players, 99% of the time it's LeBron

Wanted to edit my post, but it got deleted by accident? :lol

Totally agree with you, tho. Guy is a certifiable loon and as I've repeatedly said, is only good for the gifs he provides lol

AirBonner

08-22-2016, 06:14 PM

And it's completely unnecessary. The vast majority still believe Jordan > LeBron, and even that doesn't really get refuted on here. I can't even tell if he's just a Jordan stan or if he hates LeBron, he almost NEVER compares him to other players, 99% of the time it's LeBron
This. Its kind of disturbing. He is literally making people hate Jordan. He has MULTIPLE computers dedicated to his endless folders of copypasta arguments.

3ball

08-22-2016, 06:27 PM

Jordan's the goat but stop trying to make it look like he won with the freaking sixers.

Who said anything about winning with the Sixers??

This thread compares MJ's early supporting casts to Lebron's, and here's the takeaway:

If Lebron had today's Sixers cast and played in the tough conference like the West, he would be in the same situation young Jordan was in (no talent supporting cast in a tough conference).. But instead, Lebron's early casts had a 2-time all-star, a 15 ppg all-defensive wing, and played in a WEAK conference.. It's night and day

A team that won 55 games without him

The 55 wins resulted from 3-peat teamwork - but the Bulls dropped from 3-peat dynasty (one of the best teams ever), to an ordinary 2nd Round team.

And remember - they weren't going to do better than 2nd Round the next year in 1995 - they were PERMANENTLY a 2nd round team (or worse) without Jordan.. Their decline from one of the best teams ever to ordinary 2nd Round team is one of the biggest declines ever.

How is that different from Kevin love on 2016?

Kevin Love averaged 4 times as many points as Rodman (15 ppg to 4 ppg)

Also, Lebron had Kevin Love AND Tristan Thompson to help with rebounding - both Love and Tristan averaged 9 rebounds in 2016 playoffs.

Otoh, when Rodman averaged 8.3 rebounds in 1997 playoffs, Jordan was #2 with 7.9 rebounds.. He didn't get help from an EXTRA double-double guy like Lebron had with Tristan - so Lebron had more rebounding help (love and tristan) AND scoring help (Kyrie's 27 ppg... and Love's 15 ppg versus Rodman's 4 ppg)

3ball

08-22-2016, 06:34 PM

The vast majority believe Jordan > LeBron

Why do you think Jordan is GOAT?... I don't think you can come up with any reasons other than generic 6/6, etc...

The reality is that you DON'T think he's goat - you just give it lip service because you're aware that most people think he is the goat, and you don't want to look stupid, nor are you competent enough to come up with arguments for why you think Lebron is goat.. you guys are pathetic

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-22-2016, 06:41 PM

Why do you think Jordan is GOAT?... I don't think you can come up with any reasons other than generic 6/6, etc...

The reality is that you DON'T think he's goat - you just give it lip service because you're aware that most people think he is the goat, and you don't want to look stupid, nor are you competent enough to come up with arguments for why you think Lebron is goat.. you guys are pathetic

http://dev-wordpress-storage.s3-website-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/post-33537-Jim-Carrey-Truman-Show-gif-wha-cIrC.gif

Get some fresh air, bud. While you're at it pickup a f*cking hobby or something.

3ball

08-22-2016, 06:41 PM

Did this guy just say big Z was a top 3 PF/c in the league in 2005?!

no dummy, i said Zydrunas was a top 3 player at his position in the conference, by virtue of the coaches voting him an all-star twice.

so yes - based on his all-star selections, Zydrunas had seasons where he was a top 3 center in the 2000's East.

So again - if Lebron had today's Sixers cast and played in the tough conference like the West, he would be in the same situation young Jordan was in (no talent supporting cast in a tough conference).. But instead, Lebron's early casts had a 2-time all-star, a 15 ppg all-defensive wing, and played in a WEAK conference, so his path was far easier

Smoke117

08-22-2016, 06:44 PM

Why do you think Jordan is GOAT?... I don't think you can come up with any reasons other than generic 6/6, etc...

The reality is that you DON'T think he's goat - you just give it lip service because you're aware that most people think he is the goat, and you don't want to look stupid, nor are you competent enough to come up with arguments for why you think Lebron is goat.. you guys are pathetic

Taking this meltdown to a new level I see...a clown who repost the same threads every day calling everyone else pathetic? :oldlol:

3ball

08-22-2016, 06:45 PM

Get some fresh air, bud. While you're at it pickup a f*cking hobby or something.

You know I'm right - if I ask you why Jordan is GOAT, you'll say something like 6/6 (which is fine)

But you can't really articulate or expound on why he's better

Enter 3ball... :D

Smoke117

08-23-2016, 02:52 AM

You know I'm right - if I ask you why Jordan is GOAT, you'll say something like 6/6 (which is fine)

But you can't really articulate or expound on why he's better

Enter 3ball... :D

What about me then bitch? My favorite player is Scottie Pipppen...a player who played all his best years with Jordan...I watched them both extensively. Does my opinion not count either? You ****ing child. Unlike you too...I can actually be objective...I have Jordan as the 2nd GOAT after Kareem...I may not like him, but I respect his game. (same way I do lebron)

3ball

08-23-2016, 03:53 AM

What about me then bitch? My favorite player is Scottie Pipppen...a player who played all his best years with Jordan...

:roll: :roll:

Why would anyone have Pippen as their favorite player??.. :oldlol:.. :hammerhead:

This guy was so lame that he required Jordan to lead the Bulls in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, by an average margin of 15.4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) ppg - NO all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series, let alone by 15 ppg..

In addition to allowing Jordan to carry the goat scoring load, Pippen also allowed Jordan to lead the Bulls in assists for most seasons - infact, Jordan led the Bulls in assist percentage for both (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) 3-peats, so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals during the 6-peat.

Heck, Pippen averaged a pathetic 17/7/5 on 40.8% in 1996-1998 playoffs - this included the worst 2nd option performance of all time: 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals.. He also disappeared in the last 2 games of 1998 Finals, to finish the series at 15 ppg on 41%.. Considering Pippen's disappearance and Rodman's 4/8 averages, you can see why the Bulls needed Jordan to produce the greatest clutch the game's ever seen - his 2nd and 3rd best players disappeared but he found a way to win anyway.

Smoke117

08-23-2016, 03:58 AM

:roll: :roll:

Why would anyone have Pippen as their favorite player??.. :oldlol:.. :hammerhead:

This guy was so lame that he required Jordan to lead the Bulls in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, by an average margin of 15.4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) ppg - NO all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series, let alone by 15 ppg..

In addition to allowing Jordan to carry the goat scoring load, Pippen also allowed Jordan to lead the Bulls in assists for most seasons - infact, Jordan led the Bulls in assist percentage for both (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) 3-peats, so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals during the 6-peat.

Heck, Pippen averaged a pathetic 17/7/5 on 40.8% in 1996-1998 playoffs - this included the worst 2nd option performance of all time: 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals.. He also disappeared in the last 2 games of 1998 Finals, to finish the series at 15 ppg on 41%.. Considering Pippen's disappearance and Rodman's 4/8 averages, you can see why the Bulls needed Jordan to produce the greatest clutch the game's ever seen - his 2nd and 3rd best players disappeared but he found a way to win anyway.

See...you make posts like this and want to be taken seriously...you are legit the curryfan of MJ stans...literally try and debunk your favorite players teammates so you can raise him on some pedestal...it's ****ing pathetic, mate.

In your stupid ****ing mind Pippen is some lamar odom role player and a not a guy who easily top 3 after the season Jordan retired. Pippen was 2nd in +/- in 94, but yeah, it was the championship teamwork that Jordan created through the threepeat that made them able to play so well in 94, right? You ****ing maggot.

3ball

08-23-2016, 04:17 AM

See...you make posts like this and want to be taken seriously...you are legit the curryfan of MJ stans...literally try and debunk your favorite players teammates so you can raise him on some pedestal...it's ****ing pathetic, mate.
My entire post was a list of statistical facts about Pippen, so quit complaining.

Btw, Pippen's GREATEST choke was his 1-10 for 2 points in Game 7 of 1990 ECF - that cost the Bulls their 1st championship - the Bulls would've beaten the Blazers, since the Pistons destroyed the Blazers in 5 easy games, but needed 7 tough games and Pippen choke to beat the Bulls..

And btw, Pippen ADMITTED his goat choke was due to the pressure: "it was the pressure.. as the pounding in my head grew, the pressure grew"

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367910
.

Smoke117

08-23-2016, 04:20 AM

My entire post was a list of statistical facts about Pippen, so quit complaining.

Btw, Pippen's GREATEST choke was his 1-10 for 2 points in Game 7 of 1990 ECF - that cost the Bulls their 1st championship - the Bulls would've beaten the Blazers, since the Pistons destroyed the Blazers in 5 easy games, but needed 7 tough games and Pippen choke to beat the Bulls..

And btw, Pippen ADMITTED his goat choke was due to the pressure: "it was the pressure.. as the pounding in my head grew, the pressure grew"

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367910

Thanks a lot Pip - that's YOUR boy - he cost the Bulls a 4-peat..

What the **** does pre championship bulls have to do with anything? Michael and Scottie WERE THE ONLY TWO PLAYERS ON BOTH THREEPEAT TEAMS...and you talk this shit? How ****ing stupid can you be? You are legit talking about a player who put up 21.6ppg 8.9rpg 5.8apg 2.5spg 1.5bpg .562% while being by far the best defensive player at his position in the playoffs in their first championship...are you seriously trying to downplay this? Is that really a role player to you?

3ball

08-23-2016, 04:34 AM

You are legit talking about a player who put up 21.6ppg 8.9rpg 5.8apg 2.5spg 1.5bpg .562% while being by far the best defensive player at his position in the playoffs in their first championship

Those are the best stats in Pippen's playoff career, yet they pale in comparison to Wade's or Kyrie's best series stats, who were also more clutch.

Go check out Wade's stats in 2011 playoffs and Finals (25 ppg and 27 ppg on 48%), or some of his other series.. Overall, Wade averaged 20/5/4 on 48% in 2011-2014 playoffs, compared to Pippen's 17/7/5 on 40.8% in 1996-1998 playoffs (20/8/6 in 91-93' playoffs).
.

Smoke117

08-23-2016, 04:40 AM

http://dev-wordpress-storage.s3-website-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/post-33537-Jim-Carrey-Truman-Show-gif-wha-cIrC.gif

I can't stand this mother****er...but this is legit the most accurate gif for this nutjob 3ball.

3ball

08-23-2016, 04:43 AM

Is that a role player to you?

In addition to choking away the 1990 ECF, Pippen also choked in 1989 ECF: 10/5 averages and horrible efficiency..

So overall, he choked in 1989 ECF, 1990 ECF, 1994 ECSF, 1996 Finals, and 1998 Finals... oh, and the entire 1996-1998 playoffs (17 ppg on 40.8%)

His disappearance in the last 2 games of 1998 Finals was remarkable since Rodman averaged 4/8 in that series - so Jordan's 2nd and 3rd best players were MIA, yet he still found a way to win (via the greatest clutch the game's ever seen).. :bowdown

Smoke117

08-23-2016, 04:48 AM

In addition to choking away the 1990 ECF, Pippen also choked in 1989 ECF: 10/5 averages and horrible efficiency..

So overall, he choked in 1989 ECF, 1990 ECF, 1994 ECSF, 1996 Finals, and 1998 Finals... oh, and the entire 1996-1998 playoffs (17 ppg on 40.8%)

His disappearance in the last 2 games of 1998 Finals was remarkable since Rodman averaged 4/8 in that series - so Jordan's 2nd and 3rd best players were MIA, yet he still found a way to win (via the greatest clutch the game's ever seen).. :bowdown

See this is why you are so pathetic...Pippen was legit the favorite for FMVP in 98 when the Bulls were up 3-1 and before he hurt his back in game 5. You always bring up his last 2 games in the 98 finals like that tells the story...HE WAS THE FAVORITE FOR FMVP THROUGH THE FIRST FOUR GAMES...I can link articles if you want me to? I know you'll try and refute this though because you're a sick ****ing child. The most pathetic part about you...is that you are literally saying rubbish over and over FOR A GUY WHO IS ALREADY CONSIDERED THE GOAT...what the **** is wrong with you? You might as well be a kobe stan with your ****ing nonsense.

fourkicks44

08-23-2016, 04:49 AM

3ball

08-23-2016, 05:13 AM

Thru 4 games of 1998 Finals:

JORDAN:. 32.0 ppg.. 4.8 rpg.. 2.3 apg.. 1.3 tov.. 45% fg
PIPPEN:.i 20.0 ppg.. 6.8 rpg.. 3.5 apg.. 2.5 tov.. 47% fg

PIPPEN WAS THE FAVORITE FOR FMVP THROUGH THE FIRST FOUR GAMES

No he wasn't - nowhere near - you can post 4 articles out of thousands where the reporters took a devil's advocate stance, but's that's the severe minority.

You're forgetting that Jordan's scoring in the 1998 Finals set the all-time record for highest proportion of team points scored (38.1%) - so sorry bud, but no one was seriously considering NOT giving the 5-time FMVP the award again, especially when he was scoring 12 ppg more than his 2nd option and was the focal point of the defense.. But keep dreaming - Jordan won all the MVP awards that year - regular season, all-star, and Finals

AirBonner

08-23-2016, 05:22 AM

3alts thinks pippen is a scrub and big z a top 5 player at his position :lol

3ball

08-23-2016, 05:36 AM

3alts thinks pippen is a scrub and big z a top 5 player at his position :lol

The reality is that 2006 Larry Hughes was better than 1989 Pippen.

Hughes was a more polished scorer with better stats, and he'd already been 1st team all-nba defense and the NBA steals leader in 2005.

And yes - a top 3 center in the conference such as 2-time all-star Zydrunas (17/9 with 2.2 blocks) is certainly better than 2nd year Pippen in 1989 (14/6/3), who was nowhere NEAR being top 3 at his position.

THREAD CLIFFS: if Lebron had today's Sixers cast and played in a tough conference like the West, he would be in the same situation that young Jordan was in (no-talent supporting cast in a tough conference).. But instead, Lebron's early casts had a 2-time all-star, a 15 ppg all-defensive wing, and he played in a WEAK conference, so his path was far easier than MJ's

HylianNightmare

08-23-2016, 05:46 AM

How good was Orlando Wooldridge, George gervin, and horace grant?

3ball

08-23-2016, 06:08 AM

How good was Orlando Wooldridge, George gervin, and horace grant?
Jordan didn't win with Gervin just like Lebron didn't win with Shaq.. :confusedshrug:

When those guys played with Jordan, none of them were anywhere near being a top 3 player in their conference (all-star), so they were worse relative to their competition than Zydrunas, who was an all-star alongside the young Lebron.

Again, if Lebron had today's Sixers cast and played in a tough conference like the West, he would be in the same situation that young Jordan was in (no-talent supporting cast in a tough conference).. But instead, Lebron's early casts had a 2-time all-star center, a 15 ppg all-defensive wing, and he played in a weak conference - so his path was far easier than MJ's, even before he started team-hopping.

In the end, Lebron won 3 rings by team-hopping to play with 2 superstars - otoh, Jordan 3-peated with just 1 superstar, which is why his first 3-peat required 30% more scoring and more assists than Lebron's 3 rings (stats shown here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369)).

aj1987

08-23-2016, 06:13 AM

Jordan didn't win with Gervin just like Lebron didn't win with Shaq.. :confusedshrug:

When those guys played with Jordan, none of them were anywhere near being a top 3 player in their conference (all-star), so they were worse relative to their competition than Zydrunas, who was an all-star alongside the young Lebron.

Again, if Lebron had today's Sixers cast and played in a tough conference like the West, he would be in the same situation that young Jordan was in (no-talent supporting cast in a tough conference).. But instead, Lebron's early casts had a 2-time all-star center, a 15 ppg all-defensive wing, and he played in a weak conference - so his path was far easier than MJ's, even before he started team-hopping.

In the end, Lebron won 3 rings by team-hopping to play with 2 superstars - otoh, Jordan 3-peated with just 1 superstar, which is why his first 3-peat required 30% more scoring and more assists than Lebron's 3 rings (stats shown here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369)).
tl;dr - Ordan never dominated in the Finals the way LeBron just did. LeBron shits on anything Ordan has ever achieved.

fourkicks44

08-23-2016, 06:15 AM

tl;dr - Ordan never dominated in the Finals the way LeBron just did. LeBron shits on anything Ordan has ever achieved.

You just lost all the credibility you ever had, right there, with that post :facepalm

aj1987

08-23-2016, 06:26 AM

You just lost all the credibility you ever had, right there, with that post :facepalm
The world in which Big Z was a top 3 C, LeBron is infinitely better than Ordan as well. :confusedshrug:

3ball

08-23-2016, 06:47 AM

The world in which Big Z was a top 3 C, LeBron is infinitely better than Ordan as well. :confusedshrug:

the coaches voted Zydrunas to the all-star team twice, so that means he was a top 3 center in the conference.

i'll take the coaches' word over yours - he averaged 17/9 with 2.2 blocks - that was easily top 3 in the conference at that time

so accept the facts - young lebron had a far better 2nd option than young jordan... And Lebron had a better 3rd option too - Hughes was a 15 ppg wing who made 1st team all-defense and was the NBA steals leader the year before joining lebron - that's better than 2nd year Pippen in 1989, let alone jordan's 3rd option in years prior.

LostCause

08-23-2016, 07:52 AM

Calling Jordan "Ordan" is the sign of an idiot. In what world did MJ not have a J? Unless that's a reference to something else, then the fact he's one of, if the THE, greatest shooters of all time inside the 3-pt line makes anything attempting to sell him short there look stupid. Not to mention his mechanics were crisp enough to gain praise from around the league

In an era where mid-range game was king for guards and the 3-ball was used sparingly, dude was unstoppable. Obviously we can infer that under more modern NBA offenses he would've developed his 3 far more, but as he himself stated it never was a big part of his game because it didn't need to be

Don't be ignorant fellas. Trolls are being banned, why try to be like them?

aj1987

08-23-2016, 08:07 AM

the coaches voted Zydrunas to the all-star team twice, so that means he was a top 3 center in the conference.
Good lord, you're a ****ing retard. Seriously, no one can be this retarded.

i'll take the coaches' word over yours - he averaged 17/9 with 2.2 blocks - that was easily top 3 in the conference at that time
Nah, Ordan was just playing with scrubs names Woolridge and Dailey, who were putting up 23/6/2/1/1 on 55% and 16/3/2/1 on 47%. Lets also forget about the All-Star/All-Def Oakley, who played with Ordan. I heard that Paxon was an absolute scrub as well.

Since you love stats, 0ball:

23/6/5/3/1/1 on 55% >>
16/3/2/1 on 47% >>

so accept my opinion - young lebron had a far better 2nd option than young jordan...
Why would I accept your opinion.

And Lebron had a better 3rd option too - Hughes was a 15 ppg wing who made 1st team all-defense and was the NBA steals leader the year before joining lebron - that's better than 2nd year Pippen in 1989, let alone jordan's 3rd option in years prior.
Nah, Ordan was just playing with scrubs names Woolridge and Dailey, who were putting up 23/6/2/1/1 on 55% and 16/3/2/1 on 47%. Lets also forget about the All-Star/All-Def Oakley, who played with Ordan. I heard that Paxon was an absolute scrub as well.

LeBron also never had 2 All-Def first team players, 6th MOY, COY, rebounding champ, and an All-NBA First team player on his team in the SAME season. He had to BEAT a similar team though.

LostCause

08-23-2016, 08:18 AM

Nah, Ordan was just playing with scrubs names Woolridge and Dailey, who were putting up 23/6/2/1/1 on 55% and 16/3/2/1 on 47%. Lets also forget about the All-Star/All-Def Oakley, who played with Ordan. I heard that Paxon was an absolute scrub as well.

Since you love stats, 0ball:

23/6/5/3/1/1 on 55% >>
16/3/2/1 on 47% >>

You're calling people retards but you seriously just cited Quintin Dailey. Last time someone said that dumb shit they were laughed off of the forum prior to being banned. This wasn't even 2 days ago. Why are you trying to be like him?

Tell you what. Go ahead and tell us what Dailey averaged in the playoffs and how many games he played with Jordan. You'll discover why the last person who brought that up made themselves look stupid really fast

For reference here's the thread (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=417032). Quite a few posts were removed by mods for obvious reasons and the thread was locked

aj1987

08-23-2016, 08:24 AM

You're calling people retards but you seriously just cited Quintin Dailey. Last time someone said that dumb shit they were laughed off of the forum prior to being banned. This wasn't even 2 days ago. Why are you trying to be like him?

Tell you what. Go ahead and tell us what Dailey averaged in the playoffs and how many games he played with Jordan. You'll discover why the last person who brought that up made themselves look stupid really fast

For reference here's the thread (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=417032). Quite a few posts were removed by mods for obvious reasons and the thread was locked
I really don't care enough to look at that thread, but I'm assuming that it was made by a LeBron stan and Gervin was mentioned as well?

Me bringing up Dailey is pretty much the as 3ball saying that Big Z was a top 3 C.

Stop getting your panties in a bunch and read the entire convo, before you decide to stick your nose in there.

Oh, and Dailey averaged 15/3/3/1 on 42% and Woolridge averaged 21/3/2/2 on 50% in the PO's. I'm assuming that you're talking about the '86 season, when he was injured?

EDIT: Looked at the thread. What does that have to do with my post?

EDIT 2: I see that you do not have a problem with 3ball listing Hughes, when the guy played 9 games in '06. Give LeBron MJ's 2nd and 3rd best players from the '85 season and he'd probably make the ECF/Finals. I really don't need to tell you how terrible LeBron's teams were, do I?

hateraid

08-23-2016, 09:25 AM

You're mistaken - Rodman was 34 years old when he joined the Bulls and his all-star days were long gone, nor was he all-defense anymore!!

You forget that Rodman didn't make any all-defensive teams in 1997 or 1998 - he averaged 4/8 for the entire 1997 playoffs and didn't even start in 1998 playoffs!!

His last decent year was 1996... But by 1997 and 1998, he was the same washed up garbage that he was for the 1999 Lakers, but no one noticed because "da Bulls" were 3-peating.
.

He still led the league in rebounds and played 30+ minutes a game. Anyone who actually WATCHED the Bulls knew Rodman was very impact full on the court. Like Steven Adams on steroids. He disrupted shit and pushed people.

Sometimes I think you're all statistics with no context.

LostCause

08-23-2016, 09:49 AM

Me bringing up Dailey is pretty much the as 3ball saying that Big Z was a top 3 C.

Comparing both teams, Big Z was the best player not named Michael Jordan or Lebron James

Stop getting your panties in a bunch and read the entire convo, before you decide to stick your nose in there.

Weak shit, nice try at an insult but I don't really care about the rest of the convo. You post dumb shit I'll address it. Keep that in mind

Oh, and Dailey averaged 15/3/3/1 on 42% and Woolridge averaged 21/3/2/2 on 50% in the PO's. I'm assuming that you're talking about the '86 season, when he was injured?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1985-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-bucks.html#CHI::none

How does .406 = 42 exactly?

How about taking a better look at their contributions
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1985-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-bucks.html#CHIadvanced::none

Both bad defense and misleading offense

EDIT 2: I see that you do not have a problem with 3ball listing Hughes, when the guy played 9 games in '06. Give LeBron MJ's 2nd and 3rd best players from the '85 season and he'd probably make the ECF/Finals. I really don't need to tell you how terrible LeBron's teams were, do I?

From 85/86 season? That's interesting
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1986.html#advanced::26

Who exactly do you think are the 2nd/3rd best players from that season? Banks/Woolridge? Woolridge/Dailey? Woolridge/Oakley? Some other combo not including Woolridge?

Also why do you think Jordans teammates would be any sort of upgrades? Because of inflated stats? Or you just allured by Woolridges 20ppg average?

Doranku

08-23-2016, 09:54 AM

Honestly, if you call the greatest mid-range player of all-time "Ordan", you should simply be permabanned instantly.

All of you are ****ing 20 year old morons.

aj1987

08-23-2016, 10:10 AM

Comparing both teams, Big Z was the best player not named Michael Jordan or Lebron James
Are you actually being serious or just trolling with that statement? Oakley and Woolridge.

Weak shit from a weak dude, nice try at an insult but I don't really care about the rest of the convo. You post dumb shit I'll address it. Keep that in mind
You don't care because you don't want to read the BS that 3ball is posting about your boyfriend.

How does .406 = 42 exactly?
It was listed as 41.9% and I rounded it up to 42%.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1985.html

How about taking a better look at their contributions
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1985-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-bucks.html#CHIadvanced::none

Both bad defense and misleading offense
Yeah, because Big Z was an elite offensive player and an elite rim-protector/defender. :facepalm

From 85/86 season? That's interesting
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1986.html#advanced::26

Who exactly do you think are the 2nd/3rd best players from that season? Banks/Woolridge? Woolridge/Dailey? Woolridge/Oakley? Some other combo not including Woolridge?

Also why do you think Jordans teammates would be any sort of upgrades? Because of inflated stats? Or you just allured by Woolridges 20ppg average?
I actually meant the '84-'85 season. You should know that by now, unless you started watching/discussing basketball a month ago.

Oakley was a better defender than anyone on that Cavs team. LeBron also could've sure AF used a decent scorer next to him.

In '06, Hughes was injured and could only put up 11 PPG on 32%. The amazing Big Z? 10/6 on 45%. Snow? 7 on 42%. Murray? 8 on 33%. Marshall? 10 on 43%.

In '07:

Hughes - 11 on 35%
Z - 13 on 50%
Sasha - 9 on 38%

Booby did have 2-3 really good games in the PO's though. None of them provided anything better than MJ's supporting cast did.

LostCause

08-23-2016, 10:51 AM

Are you actually being serious or just trolling with that statement? Oakley and Woolridge.

Clearly can't read
http://prnt.sc/c9dr9x

How is this a response to that? Big Z was the 3rd best player between the 2 teams at the dates specified. Period.

You don't care because you don't want to read the BS that 3ball is posting about your boyfriend.

I don't care because it's irrelevant. Not surprised you're unable to grasp that concept

It was listed as 41.9% and I rounded it up to 42%.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1985.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1985-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-bucks.html

Yeah, because Big Z was an elite offensive player and an elite rim-protector/defender. :facepalm

He was pretty damn good defensively and his offense was solid as well. Pace adjusted he was right there with your cracked out boyfriend Woolridge who apparently could've led the league in scoring by your hype

I actually meant the '84-'85 season. You should know that by now, unless you started watching/discussing basketball a month ago.

:confusedshrug: These two things have nothing to do with each other. If you're referring to 84-85, then why are you mentioning Oakley? He wasn't even on it. Keep showing your complete lack of intelligence and insecurity about that fact by throwing insults when you're clearly the one that has no clue what they're talking about

Not to mention this was Jordans rookie year. Are we really that desperate we're making THOSE types of comparisons? If that's the case lets wonder why Lebron didn't make the playoffs with Boozer/Big Z who both were superior to anyone on the 84-85 Bulls not named Jordan

Oakley was a better defender than anyone on that Cavs team. LeBron also could've sure AF used a decent scorer next to him.

Oakley wasn't even on the 84-85 Bulls. You seemed pretty offended I assumed you meant 85-86 due to bringing up Oakley, so pick a new 2nd/3rd otherwise drop this point right here. Here's the roster
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1985.html

Pace adjusted, Big Z was about as good a scorer as Woolridge, Woolridge only scoring 3 points more per possession

In '06, Hughes was injured and could only put up 11 PPG on 32%. The amazing Big Z? 10/6 on 45%. Snow? 7 on 42%. Murray? 8 on 33%. Marshall? 10 on 43%.

In '07:

Hughes - 11 on 35%
Z - 13 on 50%
Sasha - 9 on 38%

Booby did have 2-3 really good games in the PO's though. None of them provided anything better than MJ's supporting cast did.

Basic stats are empty stats. The Cavs weren't great offensively but they did play good defense, this is evidenced by Big Z highest the highest defensive metrics on the team (And higher Woolridge/Dailey considerably). You're basically trading defense for offense swapping the players around, and the offense of Woolridge/Dailey wasn't anything that would improve the Cavs chances based on how their games were played.

I don't see why the Cavs would fare better trading away their best defender (Big Z) and whoever their 3rd best was for 2 marginal offensive players who can't space the floor and are atrocious defensively

aj1987

08-23-2016, 03:35 PM

Clearly can't read
http://prnt.sc/c9dr9x

How is this a response to that? Big Z was the 3rd best player between the 2 teams at the dates specified. Period.
I guess you're just too stupid to understand basketball, if you think Z was the best outside MJ and LeBron.

I don't care because it's irrelevant. Not surprised you're unable to grasp that concept
So, you butt into a conversation and chime in with your dumbass opinions without any context of the conversation, or the person I'm conversing with? :facepalm

He was better than both at both. So try harder
Yeah, just no. You need to actually watch the games, kid.

These two things have nothing to do with each other. If you're referring to 84-85, then why are you mentioning Oakley? He wasn't even on it

EDIT 2: I see that you do not have a problem with 3ball listing Hughes, when the guy played 9 games in '06. Give LeBron MJ's 2nd and 3rd best players from the '85 season and he'd probably make the ECF/Finals. I really don't need to tell you how terrible LeBron's teams were, do I?

Where exactly did I mention Oakley? You brought it up when you said "85/86".

Who exactly do you think are the 2nd/3rd best players from that season? Banks/Woolridge? Woolridge/Dailey? Woolridge/Oakley? Some other combo not including Woolridge?

Keep showing your complete lack of intelligence and insecurity about that fact by throwing insults when you're clearly the one that has no clue what they're talking about
I'm the one presenting facts and stats and you're the one crying like a little girl here.

Not to mention this was Jordans rookie year. Are we really that desperate we're making THOSE types of comparisons? If that's the case lets wonder why Lebron didn't make the playoffs with Boozer/Big Z who both were superior to anyone on the 84-85 Bulls not named Jordan
LeBron just wasn't that good? Dude was an 18 year old straight from HS, playing with the best in the world. It's not really that hard to understand

Oakley wasn't even on the 84-85 Bulls. You seemed pretty offended I assumed you meant 85-86 due to bringing up Oakley, so pick a new 2nd/3rd otherwise drop this point right here. Here's the roster
:facepalm :facepalm

Read above.

Pace adjusted, Big Z was about as good a scorer as Woolridge, Woolridge only scoring 3 points more per possession
Good lord! Do you understand how massive 3 points per possession. Some of the most efficient scorers in the history of the game score at 1.3 PPP.

Basic stats are empty stats. The Cavs weren't great offensively but they did play good defense, this is evidenced by Big Z highest the highest defensive metrics on the team (And higher Woolridge/Dailey considerably). You're basically trading offense for defense swapping the players around, and the offense of Woolridge/Dailey wasn't anything that would improve the Cavs chances based on how their games were played.
Ugh, as I said, watch the games. Advanced metrics are for stat nerds and barely have any context. Especially DRtg, which is a team based metric. LeBron's teammates were beyond terrible offensively on a team that needed offensive talent.

Also, the Cavs were 14th defensively WITH Z in '06. Love how you missed that part.

I don't see why the Cavs would fare better trading away their best defender (Big Z) and whoever their 3rd best was for 2 marginal offensive players who can't space the floor and are atrocious defensively
You're like the lite version of 3ball. Downplaying MJ's teammates to create a new narrative that he did everything by himself. Are you gonna call Pippen a glorified Bowen?

Let me school you on Z. Dude wasn't really a mobile player and had almost no lateral quickness. Wasn't really effective at guarding PnR's and was an average rim protector. You would know that if you actually watched the games, kid.

LostCause

08-23-2016, 04:27 PM

I guess you're just too stupid to understand basketball, if you think Z was the best outside MJ and LeBron

Insults don't make an argument. Big Z was better than both Woolridge and Dailey and it's not really close.

Make a real argument showing otherwise, or are you too dense to not understand what an "argument" even is? The fact you believe Woolridge and/or Dailey are the answers to the Cavs offensive woes simply due to some empty stats makes it clear you're only here for the trolling, not actual basketball discussion

So, you butt into a conversation and chime in with your dumbass opinions without any context of the conversation, or the person I'm conversing with? :facepalm

Me telling you it's irrelevant somehow means I don't have context of the conversation or the person? More that it doesn't matter

I'll make simple: It doesn't matter how or why you said whatever you did to 3ball. If you made statements meant to be trollish and not taken seriously, then you wouldn't be responding to me now and you would've just dismissed them as trolling. You didn't. Thats why you're responding to me now. So the context of your discussion with 3ball doesn't matter, you're defending your words on their merit alone

Is that simple enough or shud i dum it down evn moar 4 u?

Yeah, just no. You need to actually watch the games, kid.

Really? Cool. Tell me more about Orlando Woolridge and Quintin Dailey's game then, since you seem to think they were so good

Where exactly did I mention Oakley? You brought it up when you said "85/86".

http://prnt.sc/c9iffp

I'm the one presenting facts and stats and you're the one crying like a little girl here.

:roll: <-- Just that

LeBron just wasn't that good? Dude was an 18 year old straight from HS, playing with the best in the world. It's not really that hard to understand

But let me guess. Jordan was fully developed his rookie year by comparison right? Even though Bron still had an excellent rookie year

Good lord! Do you understand how massive 3 points per possession. Some of the most efficient scorers in the history of the game score at 1.3 PPP.

You're talking about something completely different. I said pace adjusted, so I'm referring to 3 points per 100 possessions

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1985.html#playoffs_per_poss::26

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2006.html#playoffs_per_poss::26

But let's take a moment to laugh at you being so inept to say the bolded, yet because you so badly want to appear knowledgeable you ignore the elephant that Woolridge is clearly not one of the "most efficient scorers in history", getting over double the PPP such players do, all according to you. No bells rung. No voice told you that maybe that didn't sound right. Nope. Bravo :applause:

Ugh, as I said, watch the games. Advanced metrics are for stat nerds and barely have any context.

Basic stats are empty stats. You don't get to cite statistics when it suits you and dismiss them when it doesn't. Kind of dumb shit is that?

If you don't wanna use stats, don't. But you did, so you do, and we will

Especially DRtg, which is a team based metric. LeBron's teammates were beyond terrible offensively on a team that needed offensive talent.

So trading defense for offense does the trick right :no:

What's this basketball thing again? :confusedshrug:

Also, the Cavs were 14th defensively WITH Z in '06. Love how you missed that part.

I'm going to re-introduce you to that "relevance" word again. Say it with me. Relevance (http://bfy.tw/7M7h). Irrelevance is the opposite of that

Big Z can be and was a good defensive player regardless of the teams overall ranking. He was far better than either Woolridge or Dailey were and losing him is losing a lot for the Cavs defensively

You're like the lite version of 3ball. Downplaying MJ's teammates to create a new narrative that he did everything by himself. Are you gonna call Pippen a glorified Bowen?

I didn't downplay any of MJ's teammates. Show me where I did. You, though, are clearly downplaying Ilgauskas

Let me school you on Z. Dude wasn't really a mobile player and had almost no lateral quickness. Wasn't really effective at guarding PnR's and was an average rim protector. You would know that if you actually watched the games, kid.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/21/sports/inside-the-nba-ilgauskas-is-a-big-reason-for-the-cavaliers-surge.html?_r=0

Ilgauskas's biggest improvement has been on defense. Standing straight rather than bending his knees in a proper defensive stance, Ilgauskas was slow on rotations and easy to knock around, making him a liability despite his size. Opponents relished exploiting him in pick-and-rolls.

But no more. Finally incorporating Silas's advice about bending his knees, a quicker, more mobile Ilgauskas has become a defensive force.

''With his shot-blocking, he's anchoring our defense right now, and we didn't have that before,'' Silas said. ''He's finally getting it. He's just learned that 'I have to rotate on defense, I have to block shots, I've got to rebound and I've got to be the anchor.' And he's doing more than blocking shots. He's playing good overall defense.''

This was a season or two before the one in question and Ilgauskas only improved. In fac, dude was still playing GOOD defense years later (2010)
http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports-blog/index.ssf/2010/04/cleveland_cavaliers_2.html

He improved from the Silas days even more as Mike Brown altered the way the Cavs defended the Pick n Roll which allowed Z to stay near the rim where he became a much greater defensive force than chasing on the perimeter. Varejao and others tended to jump out at screens more often.

You sure YOU watch the games, "kid"? Or should we all believe dumbass aj1987's "understanding of basketball" exceeds that of Paul Silas, Mike Brown and numerous other coaches and observers? Lol

aj1987

08-23-2016, 05:58 PM

Insults don't make an argument. Big Z was better than both Woolridge and Dailey and it's not really close.
Dude, he was a role-player just like them. How do you explain him disappearing in the PO's (not that he was a beast in the RS)? Dude literally feasted off of LeBron and when the going was tough, he disappeared. I would pick Woolridge over Z in a heartbeat to play next to LeBron.

Make a real argument showing otherwise, or are you too dense to not understand what an "argument" even is? The fact you believe Woolridge and/or Dailey are the answers to the Cavs offensive woes simply due to some empty stats makes it clear you're only here for the trolling, not actual basketball discussion
Bruh, I've been been straight presenting you with FACTS and STATS. You're the one who's going "but but wolridge sux and z rox!". You've literally been acting like a baby in this whole thread.

I know whose alt you are though. Stick to your main account, kid.

Me telling you it's irrelevant somehow means I don't have context of the conversation or the person? More that it doesn't matter
What are you even talking about? I was pointing out that you butted into a conversation without any context and cherrypicked arguments, without looking about the person I quoted or his posts. Seriously, that's really not too difficult to understand.

I'll make simple: It doesn't matter how or why you said whatever you did to 3ball. If you made statements meant to be trollish and not taken seriously, then you wouldn't be responding to me now and you would've just dismissed them as trolling. You didn't. Thats why you're responding to me now. So the context of your discussion with 3ball doesn't matter, you're defending your words on their merit alone
**** off, kid. Seriously. How do you even not know how trolls work?

Again:

Bruh, I've been been straight presenting you with FACTS and STATS. You're the one who's going "but but wolridge sux and z rox!". You've literally been acting like a baby in this whole thread.

Is that simple enough or shud i dum it down evn moar 4 u?
If you weren't a little bitch, you'd actually stick to your other accounts. Beyond pathetic.

Really? Cool. Tell me more about Orlando Woolridge and Quintin Dailey's game then, since you seem to think they were so good
Better than Z and Hughes with LeBron.

http://prnt.sc/c9iffp
I literally stopped typing for like 15 seconds. No one can be as retarded as you are.

I literally laid out the posts in my previous one. Go back and refer to that. :facepalm :facepalm

:roll: <-- Just that
Yeah, I expected it. I really do not expect anything more from a poster as retarded as you. :cheers:

But let me guess. Jordan was fully developed his rookie year by comparison right? Even though Bron still had an excellent rookie year
Lets see. One dude came into the league after 3 years in college under an ATG basketball coach, and the other one came into the league at 18, straight out of college.

Even a poster (obvious alt) as retarded as you should be able to figure that out.

You're talking about something completely different. I said pace adjusted, so I' referring to 3 points per 100 possessions
:facepalm

Pace adjusted, Big Z was about as good a scorer as Woolridge, Woolridge only scoring 3 points more per possession

That's what you posted, you mouth breathing retard.

But let's take a moment to laugh at you being so inept to say the bolded, yet because you so badly want to appear knowledgeable you ignore the elephant that Woolridge is clearly not one of the "most efficient scorers in history", getting over double the PPP such players do, all according to you. No bells rung. No voice told you that maybe that didn't sound right. Nope. Bravo
How the **** does anyone not know what a point or 3 points per possession is? If it wasn't for the internet, I'd actually be searching for hidden cameras. Literally no on can be this stupid.

Again. Some of the most efficient scorers in the history of the game, score at ~1.3 PPP. MJ averaged 1.3 PPP (ignoring FT's, which would lower it significantly), BTW.

Basic stats are empty stats. You don't get to cite statistics when it suits you and dismiss them when it doesn't. Kind of dumb shit is that

If you don't wanna use stats, don't. But you did, so you do, and we will

You're using advanced metrics without any knowledge about them.

DRtg is a basically a team stat and cannot be compared across eras. If you didn't know that basic FACT, you're inept to discuss even the basics of basketball

So trading defense for offense does the trick right
To win a championship? Nope. That Cavs team was just terrible. Absolutely no bench, a terrible coach, and inconsistent AF starters.

What's this basketball thing again?[quote]
Hang around, kid. You'll learn.

[QUOTE=LostCause]I'm going to re-introduce you to that "relevance" word again. Say it with me. Relevance (http://bfy.tw/7M7h). Irrelevance is the opposite of that
Strawman arguments. You really should stick with those, instead of talking about basketball. It'll make you look less stupid.

aj1987

08-23-2016, 05:59 PM

Big Z can be and was a good defensive player regardless of the teams overall ranking. He was far better than either Woolridge or Dailey were and losing him is losing a lot for the Cavs defensively
Again, with Z as the "defensive anchor".

Do you even know what STATS and FACTS are?

Not a SINGLE team with Z as the focal point of defense was an elite defensive team. Heck, in '03, when Z was an All-Star, The Cavs were ranked 24th defensively. 19th after LeBron was drafted. 14th during LeBron's sophomore year. 12th during LeBron's 3rd year.

Finally, they ranked 3rd in '07 with Hughes, Gooden, and Varejao.

11th in '08.

3rd in '09. The season when LeBron started making All-Def first teams. He was runner-up DPOY as well, BTW.

But yeah, Z was a defensive anchor on teams who are routinely ranked around the 20's, defensively, without LeBron.

I didn't downplay any of MJ's teammates. Show me where I did. You, though, are clearly downplaying Ilgauskas
I am, because he just wasn't that good. Wade was a BEAST and I'd pick him over '96-'98 Pip in a heartbeat.

You literally might be the only one in the world who'd consider Z to be a defensive anchor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/21/sports/inside-the-nba-ilgauskas-is-a-big-reason-for-the-cavaliers-surge.html?_r=0
Did you even read the article that you posted?

Lets forget that is was from the '03-'04 season (have to do that since you're a bit slow) for a second.

Ilgauskas has put up numbers that no center besides Shaquille O'Neal can scoff at.

The numbers they're talking about?

18.4 points, 9.5 rebounds and 3.4 blocks while shooting 48 percent from the field.

But yea, even Shaq would be envious of those numbers in '04. The season during which he averaged 22/12/3/1/3 on 58. KG averaged 24/14/5/2/2 on 50% and Timmy averaged 22/12/3/1/3 on 50%.

Yeah, Shaq would be perplexed at those numbers from a random 20 game stretch though.

I could do a dozen more examples from that article, but let me make this simple. The Cavs were 19th defensively and the defensive BEAST Z was at 0.8 DBPM. Pretty much the same as the defensive "beast" Boozer. :oldlol:

This was a season or two before the one in question and Ilgauskas only improved. In fac, dude was still playing GOOD defense years later (2010)
http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports-blog/index.ssf/2010/04/cleveland_cavaliers_2.html
Again, do you even read the links which you posts. That article basically is listing stats with various defensive lineups. Not just straight up defensive metrics.

Noah went from 11/11/2/1/2 on 50% in the RS to 15/13/3/2/2 on 53%. Those are FACTS.

Also, Z barely player that season and played 9 minutes a game against the Bulls, averaging 1/2/1/1 on 40%.

You actually would know that if you watched the games.

He improved from the Silas days even more as Mike Brown altered the way the Cavs defended the Pick n Roll which allowed Z to stay near the rim where he became a much greater defensive force than chasing on the perimeter. Varejao and others tended to jump out at screens more often.
Wow! Z was one of the worst PnR defenders in the league and he actually was a scrub, when it came to lateral quickness. Dude couldn't stay with anyone who was even a bit mobile.

There's a reason as to why he never played any significant minutes (~36+) in his career. He was never that good.

Varejao never really deserved his All-Def selection either. Dude literally flops on EVERY play. It was probably the offensive fouls he drew, that earned him the selection.

Neither Z nor V were high IQ defenders (unless you consider flopping high IQ) either. I can point you to a couple of full Cavs games, if would like to watch them and learn a thing or two.

You sure YOU watch the games, "kid"? Or should we all believe dumbass aj1987's "understanding of basketball" exceeds that of Paul Silas, Mike Brown and numerous other coaches and observers? Lol
I've probably watched ~40 Cavs games a season when LeBron was there. I'm pretty sure that you've never even seen Z play outside YT highlights. :cheers: :cheers:

**** you, Jeff. Increase the word count per post, you ****ing retard.

LostCause

08-24-2016, 06:08 AM

Dude, he was a role-player...Dude literally feasted off of LeBron..I would pick Woolridge over Z in a heartbeat to play next to LeBron.

He feasted off Lebron yet he was an All-Star before Lebron joined the team?

You'd pick Woolridge who was a 1-dimensional volume scorer with no ability to stretch the defense to play next to Bron? In addition to being an admitted coke-addict? Sure, I believe you

Bruh, I've been been straight presenting you with FACTS and STATS...

I know whose alt you are though. Stick to your main account, kid.

Where exactly did you think you were doing this? I'd like to see it :roll: You're the same person who tried to dismiss stats yet now you're presenting them? Your "facts" weren't facts at all, just conjecture. Do you know what that is or should I help?

As for the accusation of me being an alt, lol. Whatever fam. Not gonna entertain that bullshit, get a mod or shut up

What are you even talking about? I was pointing out that you butted into a conversation without any context and cherrypicked..

And I was pointing out that pointing that out is irrelevant. Do you or do you not understand this?

**** off, kid. Seriously. How do you even not know how trolls work?

I won't tell you again that it's irrelevant. If you wanna keep bitching about 3ball, do that on your own. More posting about it won't be acknowledged

Bruh, I've been been straight presenting you with FACTS and STATS. You're the one who's going "but but wolridge sux and z rox!". You've literally been acting like a baby in this whole thread.

What's actually been happening is you've been backtracking and your "facts" have been shown to be false (Coaches in the NBA disagree with you, dude's own coach said the opposite of what you did yet you're presenting "Facts")

You're a joke

If you weren't a little bitch, you'd actually stick to your other accounts. Beyond pathetic.

She mad (http://theartofattraxion.com/wp-content/themes/lcp_ylw/scripts/timthumb.php?src=http://theartofattraxion.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/gga.jpg&h=170&w=560&zc=1), lol. You're going on and on about someone being an alt and 3ball being a troll. You're clearly in your feelings right now shorty.

And if you happen to be a dude, my bad. You definitely don't act like one

Better than Z and Hughes with LeBron.

Wrong. Z was GOOD defensively and solid offensively. Dailey was inefficient and 1-dimensional. Selfish and poorly conditioned. Woolridge was probably the worst defender on the team and gave you mediocre offense

All you're doing is looking at 20ppg and thinking he was some great player. Watching his play and advanced stats show just how ineffective his style of play was. This is doubly true for Dailey

You don't know these dudes

I literally stopped..

>Says I mentioned Oakley first
>Posts screenshot of him mentioning Oakley first
>Calls me retarded

Go change your tampon, fam

Yeah, I expected it. I really do not expect anything more from a poster as retarded as you. :cheers:

Are you a

Lets see. One dude came into the league after 3 years in college under an ATG basketball coach, and the other one came into the league at 18, straight out of college.

Even a poster (obvious alt) as retarded as you should be able to figure that out.

For all the insults you throw around you sure are a mental midget. How about using your brain a little bit. Years in college =/= a better player coming into the NBA. Players straight from HS can and have been better than many players who spent 1-4 years in college. Do you understand this fact?

If Jordan was better than Lebron his rookie year, that's because Jordan was simply a better basketball player. Not necessarily because of college. Hasheem Thabeet wasn't better than Kevin Garnett or Moses Malone because he went to College

Lebron did great his rookie year. He didn't come in like a damn JR Smith. The fact you're trying to make this dumbass excuses shows how incapable you are of any objective conversation

Your dumbass probably doesn't even know what that means though. so

That's what you posted, you mouth breathing retard.

Are you capable of putting things together or can you only see what's directly infront of you? You even quoted me and still got it wrong, then called me a retard :roll:

I seriously don't have to say anything about you. You make yourself look stupid. Did I not say "Pace adjusted"? It's right there in your quote. If you're going to adjust pace you're going to equalize the # of possessions. So in that context (Oh that context word) it would obviously be talking about points per 100

How the **** does anyone not know what a point or 3 points per possession is? If it wasn't for the internet, I'd actually be searching for hidden cameras. Literally no on can be this stupid.

Again. Some of the most efficient scorers in the history of the game, score at ~1.3 PPP. MJ averaged 1.3 PPP (ignoring FT's, which would lower it significantly), BTW.

:roll: My insult went over your head. Let me break it down for you

I said the difference between Z and Woolridge was about 3 points per possession. You're saying that MJ sits at around 1.3PPP. Yet you were too inept to realize that a difference of 3PPP between Z and Woolridge would automatically mean Woolridge was a better scorer than MJ (3> 1.3). You saw nothing wrong with that picture yet continued on some brain-dead tirade about how big a difference 3PPP was to try and sound knowledgeable when all you did was make yourself look stupid, and now even more so

Why am I wasting my time :facepalm

DRtg is a basically a team stat and cannot be compared across eras. If you didn't know that basic FACT, you're inept to discuss even the basics of basketball

Post a screenshot of me mentioning DRtg or shut up

And just for the sake of making you look even dumber, you don't need to compare Drtg across eras. All you have to do is compare it to others on the same team and if you do that, it still shows the fact that Woolridge was a bad defender

To win a championship? Nope. That Cavs team was just terrible. Absolutely no bench, a terrible coach, and inconsistent AF starters.

To win a championship? How about keeping it in the context. Which was if they'd fare better than they did.

Strawman arguments. You really should stick with those, instead of talking about basketball. It'll make you look less stupid.

You should stop pretending you know anything about logic or what a strawman fallacy is. In fact, if you had any idea what it actually meant you'd know that YOU committed said fallacy and my post about relevance was another way of calling it out

It's not a strawman to tell you what you're saying is irrelevant. Google the definition of it and get back to me. Stay away from things you don't understand

aj1987

08-24-2016, 07:06 AM

He feasted off Lebron yet he was an All-Star before Lebron joined the team?
Dude's best season without LeBron, he averaged 17/7.5 on 44% (as a 7'2" C) on an absolutely garbage ass team. 2 seasons later, playing behind LeBron, he averaged 17/8.6 on 47%. Yeah, he put those numbers up with LeBron taking over 20 shots a game. His numbers remained the same, but his efficiency went up, playing next to a ball dominant LeBron.

You'd pick Woolridge who was a 1-dimensional volume scorer with no ability to stretch the defense to play next to Bron? In addition to being an admitted coke-addict? Sure, I believe you
I would.

Where exactly did you think you were doing this? I'd like to see it :roll: You're the same person who tried to dismiss stats yet now you're presenting them? Your "facts" weren't facts at all, just conjecture. Do you know what that is or should I help?
How denial batman. I think I'm pretty much done here, if you can't understand the the numbers I posted are stats.

I dismissed the stats? I presented FACTS and STATS, which showed how trash LeBron's teammates were in the PO's and you just called them empty stats. YOU were the one who dismissed the stats. Denial and straight up lying.

As for the accusation of me being an alt, lol. Whatever fam. Not gonna entertain that bullshit, get a mod or shut up
It's quite obvious, but I really do not care enough. There are only like a 100 different posters on this board anyways.

And I was pointing out that pointing that out is irrelevant. Do you or do you not understand this?
How is that irrelevant? You don't even understand the context of the discussion I was having or the poster I was having it with. Do you even know what the word context means? I can give you a link to an online dictionary, if you do not.

I won't tell you again that it's irrelevant. If you wanna keep bitching about 3ball, do that on your own. More posting about it won't be acknowledged
Don't, then. Stick to trolling, kid.

What's actually been happening is you've been backtracking and your "facts" have been shown to be false (Coaches in the NBA disagree with you, dude's own coach said the opposite of what you did yet you're presenting "Facts")
Again with the "I'm right and you're wrong" argument, without backing up anything.

You're a joke
Coming from a troll who thinks Z was a defensive beast, :oldlol:

She mad (http://theartofattraxion.com/wp-content/themes/lcp_ylw/scripts/timthumb.php?src=http://theartofattraxion.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/gga.jpg&h=170&w=560&zc=1), lol. You're going on and on about someone being an alt and 3ball being a troll. You're clearly in your feelings right now shorty.

And if you happen to be a dude, my bad. You definitely don't act like one
Weak AF "insult". If I was you, I'd just quit. Come back when you have some good ones, bitch.

Wrong. Z was GOOD defensively and solid offensively.Dailey was inefficient and 1-dimensional.
Yeah, offensively solid and shot 47.6% for his career as a 7'2" C, which seasons of 44% and 43%.

Z was also so elite defensively, he anchored some of the best defenses the game has ever seen.

'06 - 14
'05 - 12
'04 - 19
'03 - 24
'02 - 27
'01 - 22

That's incredibly elite rim protection and defense anchoring.

What happened once LeBron started playing solid defense, Varejao was developing (although most of his defense consists of flopping) and Hughes was healthy and played nearly an entire season? They were the 4th best defense in the league.

Heck, the Cavs were the 3rd best defensive team in the league in the NBA and that was the season when LeBron was runner up DPOY.

You see those numbers, kid? Those are called STATS.

Selfish and poorly conditioned. Woolridge was probably the worst defender on the team and gave you mediocre offense
I'd take 23/6 on 55% over 17/9 on 47% in a heartbeat.

All you're doing is looking at 20ppg and thinking he was some great player. Watching his play and advanced stats show just how ineffective his style of play was. This is doubly true for Dailey
You've never really seen Z play, did you? Of course not, considering the FACT that you're calling him a good defensive player.

>Says I mentioned Oakley first
>Posts screenshot of him mentioning Oakley first
>Calls me retarded
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12575230&postcount=54

The was the FIRST mention of Oakley after you butted into the convo I was having with 3ball.

I'll go change my tampon, fam
Didn't need to know that.

For all the insults you throw around you sure are a mental midget. How about using your brain a little bit. Years in college =/= a better player coming into the NBA. Players straight from HS can and have been better than many players who spent 1-4 years in college. Do you understand this fact?

If Jordan was better than Lebron his rookie year, that's because Jordan was simply a better basketball player. Not necessarily because of college. Hasheem Thabeet wasn't better than Kevin Garnett or Moses Malone because he went to College
Except MJ was coached by one of the greatest coaches. Do you not even understand that we're specifically talking about MJ and LeBron and not some random dudes who went to college or came straight out of HS? Do I really need to treat you like a toddler and dumb down everything?

You do know who Dean Smith is, right? I honestly doubt that you do, so please use Google and do a bit of research.

aj1987

08-24-2016, 07:07 AM

Lebron did great his rookie year. He didn't come in like a damn JR Smith. The fact you're trying to make this dumbass excuses shows how incapable you are of any objective conversation
I never said he was a terrible or JR Smith like, moron. Again, I'll dumb it down for you. Lets say LeBron gets trained for 3 years under a guy like Dean Smith. You think that version of LeBron would be a better basketball player or a LeBron who comes straight out of HS?

I can't make it any more simpler. If you can't understand that, then I give up. It's like teaching a chipmunk calculus.

Your dumbass probably doesn't even know what that means though. so
Ironic, coming from the guy who doesn't understand how playing under an ATG coach and having him mentor you, helps before coming into the NBA.

Are you capable of putting things together or can you only see what's directly infront of you? You even quoted me and still got it wrong, then called me a retard :roll:

I seriously don't have to say anything about you. You make yourself look stupid. Did I not say "Pace adjusted"? It's right there in your quote. If you're going to adjust pace you're going to equalize the # of possessions. So in that context (Oh that context word) it would obviously be talking about points per 100
Once again with the fallacious arguments and ad hominem's.

I said the difference between Z and Woolridge was about 3 points per possession. You're saying that MJ sits at around 1.3PPP. Yet you were too inept to realize that a difference of 3PPP between Z and Woolridge would automatically mean Woolridge was a better scorer than MJ (3> 1.3). You saw nothing wrong with that picture yet continued on some brain-dead tirade about how big a difference 3PPP was to try and sound knowledgeable when all you did was make yourself look stupid, and now even more so
PPP - Point Per Possession. It's how many points a player scores per possession. It includes FGA's and FT's as well.

3 points per possession - It implies that a player is scoring 3 points per possession, which either means that the player is getting fouled on ever made basket and is making the FT, or that he's only taking 3's and making everyone of them.

Transition
19.4% Frequency
1.31 Points Per Possession

Isolation
19.1% Frequency
0.84 Points Per Possession

PnR Ball Handler
21.8% Frequency
0.88 Points Per Possession

PnR Roll Man
3.6% Frequency
1.34 Points Per Possession

Post Up
10.4% Frequency
0.88 Points Per Possession

Spot Up
6.6% Frequency
0.94 Points Per Possession

Hand Off
1.9% Frequency
1.21 Points Per Possession

Cut
5.6% Frequency
1.38 Points Per Possession

Off Screen
2.2% Frequency
0.92 Points Per Possession

Putback
3.6% Frequency
1.29 Points Per Possession

(Credit: I'm Still Ballin)

The most efficient way LeBron scores is by cutting and he's at 1.38 PPP on that.

I don't have the exact number, but LeBron's at 1.14 PPP for his career.

Now do you understand what points per possession means and how ridiculous 3 PPP is?

Post a screenshot of me mentioning DRtg or shut up

And just for the sake of making you look even dumber, you don't need to compare Drtg across eras. All you have to do is compare it to others on the same team and if you do that, it still shows the fact that Woolridge was a bad defender
When did I say Woolridge or Dailey were good or even average defenders?

BTW, MJ's ORtg was worse than Orlando's in '85. So, there's that. :roll:

To win a championship? How about keeping it in the context. Which was if they'd fare better than they did.
With Z instead of Orlando and Dailey? No they wouldn't. They didn't actually. They missed the PO's the first TWO seasons WITH Z. The year they made the PO's, Z was absolutely terrible. 10/6 on 45%

https://s10.postimg.org/csajst2ah/Screen_Shot_2016_08_24_at_4_34_18_PM.png

Stay away from things you don't understand
You should follow your own advice and stop posting on ISH, since you really don't know shit about basketball.

Unless you can actually come back with FACTS/STATS, I'm done with your retarded ass. Apt username, BTW. You definitely are a lost cause. :oldlol:

LostCause

08-24-2016, 07:23 AM

Again, with Z as the "defensive anchor".

Oh so now you're dismissing his own coach. Brilliant

Not a SINGLE team with Z as the focal point...

Yo, genius, it takes more than one player to build a good team defense. Let me repeat myself and maybe your dumbass gets it this time:

http://prnt.sc/c9qvyf

Got it? Good, not repeating myself again

Finally, they ranked 3rd in '07 with Hughes, Gooden, and Varejao.

3rd in '09.

But yeah, Z was a defensive anchor .

You still dont get it and you posted it yourself. You showed as the team got more players who CAN play defense as well, the TEAM defense improved. You're emphasizing bron yet you cited them having the same ranking in 07 before he starting making All-Def 1st teams or was DPOY runner-up. None of that takes away from Z being a good def player. This may be too much for you to take in but you gotta work with me

I am, because he just wasn't that good. Wade was a BEAST and I'd pick him over '96-'98 Pip in a heartbeat.

Whosaid anything about Pippen/Wade? I said youre downplaying Z. I didn't accuse you of having an agenda to downplay Bron's teammates outside of Z like you (laughably) tried to claim I was. Stop being so damn insecure

You literally might be the only one in the world who'd consider Z to be a defensive anchor.

Christ you're dumb. I quote Silas calling Z their anchor and you respond Im the only one in the world who considers him one? :facepalm Am I Paul Silas? Even though I never called him the anchor myself (Not that there's anything wrong with that, either. You know what a defensive anchor is? He's the anchor of a defense. You cant argue with the COACH of a team as to which player is their anchor, thats dumb, but here you are)

Did you even read the article that you posted?

Lets forget that is was from the '03-'04 season (have to do that since you're a bit slow) for a second.

This isnt normal. No one can be this dumb yet not realize it and throw insults around. I'm a bit slow so you had to remind me it was from 03-04?:
http://prnt.sc/c9r0bw

Whats that say? Can you read or do you not get it? Are you so incapable of recalling info that you didn't realize the "season in question" was 05-06 and this being a year or two before that puts it in the 03-04 season range. Christ

But yea, even Shaq would be envious of those numbers in '04. The season during which he averaged 22/12/3/1/3 on 58. KG averaged 24/14/5/2/2 on 50% and Timmy averaged 22/12/3/1/3 on 50%.

Yeah, Shaq would be perplexed at those numbers from a random 20 game stretch though.

Strawman. It never said Shaq would be envious or perplexed by Z's numbers, they said he put up #'s no CENTER besides Shaq can scoff at. Scoffing at something pretty much means dismissing it. So in short they're saying only Shaq among C's put up numbers that could dismiss Z's

You used strawman wrongly earlier. It applies perfectly to this bullshit you just said though. Misrepresented them entirely (They were referring to Centers and they didn't say Shaq would be perplexed or envious. Guessing you don't know what it means to "scoff at" something)

Trying to use that to discredit the article itself is stupid. I only posted it for the references to Z's defense by his own coach. Doesn't matter if everything else said in the articles wrong, that doesn't make the commnets about his D wrong by association. Do you understand this or do I need to give you a course in how logic and reasoning works and why it's a fallacy to try and do what you just did?

I could do a dozen more examples from that..

Boozer was hidden by the system, whereas Silas used Z as the anchor (his own words). Boozer isn't terrible at buying into a team D concept anyway as shown in Utah & Chi

A more accurate rep of Z's defensive impact during the season in question (05-06)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2006/on-off/

Notice how among the starters outside of Snow he garnered the best differentials. There's no debate the team played much better defensively with him ON the floor than with just about anyone else

Again, do you even read the links which you posts. ..

Noah went from 11/11/2/1/2 on 50% in the RS to 15/13/3/2/2 on 53%. Those are FACTS.

This can't be life. Z didn't guard Noah the series. Just stretches. If you read the article you wouldn't miss where thats pointed out but as expected, you prob just skimmed the title and went to get some stats

Also, Z barely player that season and played 9 minutes a game against the Bulls, averaging 1/2/1/1 on 40%.

See above, dumbass

You actually would know that if you watched the games.

This can't be real. No way. R-E-A-D

Wow! Z was one of the worst PnR defenders in the league and he actually was a scrub, when it came to lateral quickness.

R-E-A-D. I'm gonna repeat that and post screenshots anytime you say some stupid shit that shows you didn't do it. Here's what I said
http://prnt.sc/c9r598

That means Z didn't chase the pick n roll. So why are you talking about his PnR defense?

Your perception =/= the reality. Or here's another quote
[QUOTE="More on Z"] For much of his career, Zydrunas was considered a defensive liability. With his glacial lateral movement, he was often exploited one-on-one by quicker defensive players, and he could be exploited on the pick-and-roll on a regular basis. However, since Mike Brown came to town, Zydrunas

LostCause

08-24-2016, 07:55 AM

Dude's best .

So he's feasting on Bron with similar numbers with marginally higher efficiency?

How denial batman. I think I'm pretty much done here, if you can't understand the the numbers I posted are stats.
You hardly posted any numbers concerning Z's defense. Just ran off about attributes and conjecture which was contradicted by his own coach

I dismissed the stats?..YOU were the one who dismissed the stats. Denial and straight up lying.

http://prnt.sc/c9rre0

Clearly trying to dismiss advanced stats (Also mentioning DRtg which wasn't mentioned by me). Stop crying and own up to your shit

It's quite obvious, but I really do not care enough. There are only like a 100 different posters on this board anyways.

Then shut up about it. Sound insecure AF crying someones an alt. I could similarly say you're 3ball's alt and are just arguing with yourself and "it's obvious but I don't care enough". I have no alt here and I assume you're not 3ball. So yea, drop the pointless shit

How is that irrelevant?..
http://prnt.sc/c9rt9g

It has to click at some point

Coming from a troll who thinks Z was a defensive beast, :oldlol:

Quote me on that claim. You won't be able to, but the fact you can't will make it clear who the "troll" is

Weak AF "insult". If I was you, I'd just quit. Come back when you have some good ones, bitch.

You should've quit this argument a long time ago shorty but it's probably going over your head how dumb you look. You like that bitch word though. Are you the baddest bitch on ISH?

Yeah, offensively solid and shot 47.6% for his career as a 7'2" C

That's solid

Z was also so elite defensively, he anchored some of the best defenses the game has ever seen.

That's incredibly elite rim protection and defense anchoring.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

What happened once LeBron.. Varejao..Hughes was healthy and played nearly an entire season? They were the 4th best defense in the league.

In other words, what happened when 3 other players (4+ if you include Snow/West which you should) stepped up as well to improve the TEAM defense. Something you don't seem to understand well

Heck, the Cavs were the 3rd best defensive team in the league in the NBA and that was the season when LeBron was runner up DPOY.

They were also the 3rd when Bron wasn't considered for DPOY. What then? Ready to admit team defense is a team thing or you gonna keep sucking Brons dick?

I'd take 23/6 on 55% over 17/9 on 47% in a heartbeat.

Considering their impacts in other areas, I'd take the 17/9 guy who also gives me rim protection, solid passing from the post and is solid defensively over a 1-way player who gets torched regularly

You've never really seen Z play, did you?.

You don't know the difference between perception and reality

The was the FIRST mention of Oakley after you butted.

I butted into the convo where you mentioned Oakley amongst others. Get it? Good

Didn't need to know that.
With all your bitching about 3ball and sucking off Bron its kind of obvious the only one with a ***** here is you

Except MJ was coached by one of the greatest coaches. Do you not even understand that we're specifically talking about MJ and LeBron and not some random dudes who went to college or came straight out of HS? Do I really need to treat you like a toddler and dumb down everything?

Do you not understand that the point of what I said was that objectively it's not a significant factor? Playing in college =/= entering the NBA better than someone who didn't. That fact was proven by people like KG, Moses, etc.

This is called logic, fam. If you can't prove that going to college for x years makes a player better than another player who didn't then you judge it by a case by case basis and in this case, because we dont know how Jordans rookie year would differ had he not gone to college or Brons if he did, the argument you're making is unsupported and frankly, stupid to anyone who has any logical sense. Only shows a double standard when you further go on to excuse Bron for failing to make the playoffs his rookie year but imply you wouldn't for Jordan

Do I need to dumb THAT down for you?

You do know who Dean Smith is, right?.

Get back to me when you understand what i said above

I never said he was a terrible or JR Smith like, moron. Again, I'll dumb it down for you. Lets say LeBron gets trained for 3 years under a guy like Dean Smith. You think that version of LeBron would be a better basketball player or a LeBron who comes straight out of HS?

I can't make it any more simpler. If you can't understand that, then I give up. It's like teaching a chipmunk calculus.

Your example is about as dumb as I'd expect from you. It would work if you were only comparing Bron to himself and his own potential, but you implied that you wouldnt make excuses for Jordan. So you're comparing him to Jordan instead of himself. When comparing against other players the burden ofproof is a lot higher because now you have to prove things you can't, as outline above

I'm astonished you even know what Calculus is

Ironic, coming from the guy who doesn't..

Quote me on it without your conjecture added

Once again with the fallacious arguments and ad hominem's.

Can you stop pretending you know what "fallacious" even means and that you have any idea about logical falllacies? Ad Hominem is attacking the person rather than the argument. I attacked both you AND your argument. It's not a fallacy. I still responded to you. Whether I call you a bitch, a retard, an idiot or a dumbass before or after addressing your argument doesn't make it fallacious

Do you understand this or should I try teaching your dumbass some logic? See what I did there? (I did it again, in case you missed it)

aj1987

08-24-2016, 08:05 AM

Yo, genius, it takes more than one player to build a good team defense. Let me repeat myself and maybe your dumbass gets it this time:

http://prnt.sc/c9qvyf
Oh, so he was always a good defender? I thought he became a good defender under Brown, after Silas? Make up your mind.

You still dont get it and you posted it yourself. You showed as the team got more players who CAN play defense as well, the TEAM defense improved. You're emphasizing bron yet you cited them having the same ranking in 07 before he starting making All-Def 1st teams or was DPOY runner-up. None of that takes away from Z being a good def player. This may be too much for you to take in but you gotta work with me
Z has a career DBPM of 0.8 (****ing hate advanced metrics, but you seem to love them), which means he was a mediocre defender AT best over his career.

Wade, with not too many elite defenders, anchored the 3rd best defense in the league. At 6'4". Z was a C and 7'2". If you didn't already know this, C's usually have significantly more impact defensively than perimeter players. If Z was actually a good defender, the defenses he anchored wouldn't have been so bad. Some of them were downright pathetic as well. No good defensive C, even without too many other complementary defenders, would anchor defenses that bad.

Christ you're dumb. I quote Silas calling Z their anchor and you respond Im the only one in the world who considers him one? :facepalm Am I Paul Silas? Even though I never called him the anchor myself (Not that there's anything wrong with that, either. You know what a defensive anchor is? He's the anchor of a defense. You cant argue with the COACH of a team as to which player is their anchor, thats dumb, but here you are)
You're using that to support your argument and I'm disproving it, idiot. How hard is that to understand?

Also, under the great Paul Silas and with Z anchoring the defense:

'05 - 12
'04 - 19
'03 - 24

This isnt normal. No one can be this dumb yet not realize it and throw insults around. I'm a bit slow so you had to remind me it was from 03-04?:
http://prnt.sc/c9r0bw

Whats that say? Can you read or do you not get it? Are you so incapable of recalling info that you didn't realize the "season in question" was 05-06 and this being a year or two before that puts it in the 03-04 season range. Christ
I'm not even going to bother with this. Not worth the effort, when dealing with 'special' people like yourself.

Strawman. It never said Shaq would be envious or perplexed by Z's numbers, they said he put up #'s no CENTER besides Shaq can scoff at. Scoffing at something pretty much means dismissing it. So in short they're saying only Shaq among C's put up numbers that could dismiss Z's
Over a 20 game stretch, you dolt. Shaq averaged similar numbers at 36 in '09. For the season, Z averaged 15/8 on 48%. Yeah, elite offensively and defensively. :roll:

Boozer was hidden by the system, whereas Silas used Z as the anchor (his own words). Boozer isn't terrible at buying into a team D concept anyway as shown in Utah & Chi

A more accurate rep of Z's defensive impact during the season in question (05-06)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2006/on-off/

Notice how among the starters outside of Snow he garnered the best differentials. There's no debate the team played much better defensively with him ON the floor than with just about anyone else
Dude, the difference is 1.1%

Look at the very next season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007/on-off/

The team was better defensively when Z was off the court.

Same in '09, when the Cavs were actually an elite defensive team (#3).

So, there you go. :roll: :roll:

This can't be life. Z didn't guard Noah the series. Just stretches. If you read the article you wouldn't miss where thats pointed out but as expected, you prob just skimmed the title and went to get some stats

[I]"However, bigs with serious skills or serious speed can embarrass Z, and that was never more evident than it was in last year

LostCause

08-24-2016, 08:07 AM

PPP - Point Per Possession. It's how many points a player scores per possession. It includes FGA's and FT's as well.

3 points per possession - It implies that a player is scoring 3 points per possession, which either means that the player is getting fouled on ever made basket and is making the FT, or that he's only taking 3's and making everyone of them. [/

Transition
19.4% Frequency
1.31 Points Per Possession

Isolation
19.1% Frequency
0.84 Points Per Possession

PnR Ball Handler
21.8% Frequency
0.88 Points Per Possession

PnR Roll Man
3.6% Frequency
1.34 Points Per Possession

Post Up
10.4% Frequency
0.88 Points Per Possession

Spot Up
6.6% Frequency
0.94 Points Per Possession

Hand Off
1.9% Frequency
1.21 Points Per Possession

Cut
5.6% Frequency
1.38 Points Per Possession

Off Screen
2.2% Frequency
0.92 Points Per Possession

Putback
3.6% Frequency
1.29 Points Per Possession

(Credit: I'm Still Ballin)

The most efficient way LeBron scores is by cutting and he's at 1.38 PPP on that.

I don't have the exact number, but LeBron's at 1.14 PPP for his career.

Now do you understand what points per possession means and how ridiculous 3 PPP is?

:biggums:

How is this STILL going over your head? For the last time, you're the butt of the joke here. I pointed out that Woolridge only scored 3 Points more per possession than Ilgauskas, as referring to Points per 100. Your response was to hype up that's a HUGE difference because ATG's score at around 1.3PPP. In your stupidity you failed to acknowledge that I said "pace adjusted" and thus was clearly referring to Points Per 100, you also failed to realize that 3PPP WAS ridiculous and thus assuming I was referring to the same thing you were should've clicked for you as being retarded, but it didn't. You're now trying to save face by pretending to inform me what PPP is

Mental ****ing midget. Drop this PPP shit, only making you look bad

When did I say Woolridge or Dailey were good or even average defenders?

You didn't, but unless I'm mistaken you weren't going on about comparing Drtg across era's to challenge the idea of them being bad defenders

BTW, MJ's ORtg was worse than Orlando's in '85. So, there's that. :roll:

Legit dumbass. Ever think because he missed almost all of the season?

With Z instead of Orlando and Dailey? No they wouldn't. They didn't actually. They missed the PO's the first TWO seasons WITH Z. The year they made the PO's, Z was absolutely terrible. 10/6 on 45%

Yet in the playoffs his defensive impact was 2nd best to snow among starters
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2006/on-off/

https://s10.postimg.org/csajst2ah/Screen_Shot_2016_08_24_at_4_34_18_PM.png

You should follow your own advice and stop posting on ISH, since you really don't know shit about basketball.

Your ignorance goes far beyond just a lack of knowledge about basketball, as evidenced here

Apt username, BTW. You definitely are a lost cause. :oldlol:

Probably the most clever thing you've said all day and even then it wasn't that clever at all :roll:

aj1987

08-24-2016, 08:22 AM

So he's feasting on Bron with similar numbers with marginally higher efficiency?
Holy ****! There were fewer possessions to go around, with LeBron taking ~21 shots a game, yet he maintained his numbers and his efficiency went up.

You hardly posted any numbers concerning Z's defense. Just ran off about attributes and conjecture which was contradicted by his own coach

http://prnt.sc/c9rre0

Clearly trying to dismiss advanced stats (Also mentioning DRtg which wasn't mentioned by me). Stop crying and own up to your shit
I know that you're clinically retarded, but are you legally blind as well? Only that would explain it.

Then shut up about it. Sound insecure AF crying someones an alt. I could similarly say you're 3ball's alt and are just arguing with yourself and "it's obvious but I don't care enough". I have no alt here and I assume you're not 3ball. So yea, drop the pointless shit
Says he doesn't care and types up a paragraph. :oldlol:

http://prnt.sc/c9rt9g

It has to click at some point
Cries about not bringing context into account, yet butts into a conversation without any context, making retarded arguments. :cheers:

You should've quit this argument a long time ago shorty but it's probably going over your head how dumb you look. You like that bitch word though. Are you the baddest bitch on ISH?
Once against with a pathetically bad insult. SMH.

In other words, what happened when 3 other players (4+ if you include Snow/West which you should) stepped up as well to improve the TEAM defense. Something you don't seem to understand well
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007/on-off/

The team was better defensively when Z was off the court.

Same in '09, when the Cavs were actually an elite defensive team (#3).

They were also the 3rd when Bron wasn't considered for DPOY. What then? Ready to admit team defense is a team thing or you gonna keep sucking Brons dick?
Projecting much?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007/on-off/

The team was better defensively when Z was off the court.

With all your bitching about 3ball and sucking off Bron its kind of obvious the only one with a ***** here is you
:biggums:

You think about other dudes sucking off LeBron a lot?

Do you not understand that the point of what I said was that objectively it's not a significant factor? Playing in college =/= entering the NBA better than someone who didn't. That fact was proven by people like KG, Moses, etc.
We're comparing MJ and LeBron, you braindead retard.

Again:

Except MJ was coached by one of the greatest coaches. Do you not even understand that we're specifically talking about MJ and LeBron and not some random dudes who went to college or came straight out of HS? Do I really need to treat you like a toddler and dumb down everything?

This is called logic, fam.
I think you need to learn the definition of the word Logic, moron.

If you can't prove that going to college for x years makes a player better than another player who didn't then you judge it by a case by case basis and in this case, because we dont know how Jordans rookie year would differ had he not gone to college or Brons if he did, the argument you're making is unsupported and frankly, stupid to anyone who has any logical sense. Only shows a double standard when you further go on to excuse Bron for failing to make the playoffs his rookie year but imply you wouldn't for Jordan
LeBron IMPROVED in the NBA, while he could've done that in college under an ATG coach. MJ coming straight out of HS into the NBA wouldn't have been as good as he was with the skills he picked up in college. Not really a difficult concept to understand. Unless it's someone as dumb as you.

Your example is about as dumb as I'd expect from you. It would work if you were only comparing Bron to himself and his own potential, but you implied that you wouldnt make excuses for Jordan. So you're comparing him to Jordan instead of himself. When comparing against other players the burden ofproof is a lot higher because now you have to prove things you can't, as outline above
I thought Warriorfan was the dumbest poster on this board, but you make him look like a rocket scientist.

How is this STILL going over your head? For the last time, you're the butt of the joke here. I pointed out that Woolridge only scored 3 Points more per possession than Ilgauskas, as referring to Points per 100.
If you still can't differentiate between PPP and points per 100 possessions, you should got a hospital right now and get your tubes tied. The world doesn't need you spreading your retarded genes.

Legit dumbass. Ever think because he missed almost all of the season?
You still can't figure out how numbering seasons works, huh?

I'll explain it again. Whenever someone is talking about the '16 season, they're mentioning the 2015-2016 season. Not the 2016-2017 season. Same with me saying '85. It means I'm talking about the 1984-1985 season. That's how it works. Learn basketball stuff before you discuss it.

'85 was Jordan's rookie season, you neanderthal.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1985.html

Yet in the playoffs his defensive impact was 2nd best to snow among starters
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2006/on-off/
On a bad defensive team. Care to post links during the '07 and '09 seasons, when they were elite defensively?

Especially '07. The Cavs held the opponents to 39.2% eFG with Z ON THE BENCH, compared to 49.9% with him ON THE COURT.

There goes your entire ****ing argument, disproved by your beloved stats. RIP, moron.

Lebron23

08-24-2016, 08:34 AM

AJ just annihilated Lostcause.

LostCause

08-24-2016, 08:34 AM

Oh, so he was always a good defender? I thought he became a good defender under Brown, after Silas? Make up your mind.

:wtf: The ****, shorty? Is English your first language? I'll clarify this for you since you're struggling

You posted the teams defensive ranking to discredit Z being a good defensive player. By saying that he can be and was a good defensive player regardless of the teams ranking, Im basically saying that just because the teams ranking wasn't Top 10 doesn't mean Z was a bad defensive player. He can and was means it's possible for him to be good defensively and be on a bad defensive team. Both can be true at the same time. There is no contradiction here and for your attempt to discredit it to work, there has to be one

Do you get this?

Z has a career DBPM of 0.8 (****ing hate advanced metrics, but you seem to love them), which means he was a mediocre defender AT best over his career.

I'm not referring to his career

No good defensive C, even without too many other complementary defenders, would anchor defenses that bad.

Based on what? That's like saying no good scorer would be on a bad offensive team but we see it often

You're using that to support your argument and I'm disproving it, idiot. How hard is that to understand?

When you say "You're the onyl person that would call him a defensive anchor" when I hadn't said it and Paul Silas did, it is hard to understand the logic behind it. It's dumb, and there's no two ways about it.

If the guys coach calls him a defensive anchor, then he was their defensive anchor. Furthermore, saying im the only one that would is just wrong. Silas DID. So if I did as well that would make two of us. Two =/= One

It's hilarious to me how defensive you are while simultaneously making yourself look utterly obtuse. Never saw anything like it before aside from a 4 year old

Also, under the great Paul Silas and with Z anchoring the defense:

'05 - 12
'04 - 19
'03 - 24

I'm not even going to bother with this. Not worth the effort, when dealing with 'special' people like yourself.

Lmao your dumbass just showed it improving every year. How are you doing this? Do you seriously not understand how stupid you look with shit like this?

Over a 20 game stretch, you dolt. Shaq averaged similar numbers at 36 in '09. For the season, Z averaged 15/8 on 48%. Yeah, elite offensively and defensively. :roll:

Lol insecure AF. Now you're changing your argument after I schooled your retarded ass on what it means to "scoff at" something and how you commited a strawman :roll: Now you're crying about how it was a "stretch" and committing another strawman about him being elite offensively when that wasn't the point of me posting it

You're terrible. Very rare to come across people like you

Dude, the difference is 1.1%

Bigger difference than you're giving it credit for

Look at the very..

Debatable. How about the ORtg's? We just gonna dismiss all the other stats too?

[QUOTE][I]"However, bigs with serious skills or serious speed can embarrass Z, and that was never more evident than it was in last year

aj1987

08-24-2016, 08:41 AM

.....
Removed all the retarded BS. Tired of repeating myself and trying to teach basketball to a retarded chimp like yourself.

Finally the stat with you are absolutely in love with shows that the Cavs were better with Z on the bench defensively. They were holding the opponent to lower percentages with him ON the bench. Both in '07 and '09, when they were elite defensively.

'07:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007/on-off/

'09:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2009/on-off/

In the PO's, in '07, the Cavs held their opponents to 39.2% eFG with Z ON THE BENCH, compared to 49.9% with him ON THE COURT. A difference of 10.7%, which is ****ing massive.

Get bent, kid. Hold the L and abandon this account.

LostCause

08-24-2016, 09:12 AM

There were fewer possessions to go around

Him doing as good as he did prior to Bron =/= he feasted off him. Try again

I know that you're clinically retarded, but are you legally blind as well? Only that would explain it.

I should be asking you that. When presented with advanced stats your first reaction was to dismiss them as being for "stat nerds yadda yadda". Now you're saying you never did that. Ok, cool. Whatever floats your boat shorty

Cries about not bringing context into account, yet butts into a conversation without any context, making retarded arguments. :cheers:

Like I said, it'll click at some point

Once against with a pathetically bad insult. SMH.

Legit asking. Are you?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007/on-off/

The team was better defensively when Z was off the court.

Same in '09, when the Cavs were actually an elite defensive team (#3).

Looking at more than just eFG% disagrees

Projecting much?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007/on-off/

The team was better defensively when Z was off the court.

Is that why opponents' rebounds, pace and Ortg dropped when he was on the court?

:biggums:

You think about other dudes sucking off LeBron a lot?

I'm sure you'd know all about that

We're comparing MJ and LeBron

I was wrong. At some point, it's not going to click. You're hopeless

I think you need to learn the definition of the word Logic, moron.

Hilarious coming from the person who misused strawman and ad hominem and can't make a logical argument to save their life

LeBron IMPROVED in the NBA, while he could've done that in college under an ATG coach. MJ coming straight out of HS .

There's no guarantee Lebron going to college would've caused him to have a greater rookie year than he did. Just as there's none that Jordan would've had a worse one. Saying otherwise is simple conjecture and nothing else. Google that word

Thats as simple as it gets. If your retarded ass can't understand it even now then I'm done with

If you still can't differentiate between PPP and points per 100 possessions...

You STILL don't get it :roll: :roll:
http://prnt.sc/c9ss01

Look, fam. You're the one that couldn't differentiate the two because you said this:
http://prnt.sc/c9sspf

When I posted their per-100 possession stats. If you knew the differences you wouldn't be in this situation you're in right now but you didn't. "Pace-adjusted" implies equal pacing and the most common form of comparing that is using per-100 numbers.

****ing retard

You still can't figure out how numbering seasons works, huh?

I'll explain it again. Whenever someone is talking about the '16 season, they're mentioning the 2015-2016 season. Not the 2016-2017 season. Same with me saying '85. It means I'm talking about the 1984-1985 season. That's how it works. Learn basketball stuff before you discuss it.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1985.html
Not "basketball stuff", just stylistic. I just refer to them as 16-17 or if I'm saying 16 season, I'll refer to the season of 16-17 and the playoffs as 17

There is no right way or wrong way to do it between them. Just different

That said now that I see you were talking about the 84-85 season, Woolridge was more efficient

On a bad defensive team. Care to post links during the '07 and '09 seasons, when they were elite defensively?

Especially '07. The Cavs held the opponents to 39.2% eFG with Z ON THE BENCH, compared to 49.9% with him ON THE COURT.

There goes your entire ****ing argument, disproved by your beloved stats. RIP, moron.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007.html

By your beloved Ortg stats it also shows that Z had a higher Ortg than Lebron in 07

Though Z's defense in the 07 run was bad. Doesn't mean his defense in the prior playoffs was bad and his defense in 09 was a positive also

LostCause

08-24-2016, 09:20 AM

Removed all the retarded BS. Tired of repeating myself and trying to teach basketball to a retarded chimp like yourself.

Utterly amazed ow someone can be so obtuse yet remain convinced its NOT them. You're a real piece of work :applause:

Finally the stat with you are absolutely in love with shows that the Cavs were better with Z on the bench defensively. They were holding the opponent to lower percentages with him ON the bench. Both in '07 and '09, when they were elite defensively.

'07:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007/on-off/

'09:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2009/on-off/

In the PO's, in '07, the Cavs held their opponents to 39.2% eFG with Z ON THE BENCH, compared to 49.9% with him ON THE COURT. A difference of 10.7%, which is ****ing massive.

07 his impact was definitely a net negative for the team defensively in the playoffs. I won't argue that

However, 09? No, his impact was NOT a net negative. In fact it's mostly positive.
http://prnt.sc/c9t5cy

There's a lot more minuses than pluses in that picture. How the hell can he have a bad defensive impact when that's the case? Makes no sense. There's more to defense than just eFG%. Look at the opposing teams Ortg, for example

Get bent, kid. Hold the L and abandon this account.

Lol. I'd tell you to explain how 09 shows him as being a bad defensive player but after responding to your mindless drivel and insecurities for so long Im not sure I can stand it

You should learn what an outlier is, and then get back to me

aj1987

08-24-2016, 09:33 AM

Utterly amazed ow someone can be so obtuse yet remain convinced its NOT them. You're a real piece of work :applause:

07 his impact was definitely a net negative for the team defensively in the playoffs. I won't argue that

However, 09? No, his impact was NOT a net negative. In fact it's mostly positive.
http://prnt.sc/c9t5cy

There's a lot more minuses than pluses in that picture. How the hell can he have a bad defensive impact when that's the case? Makes no sense. There's more to defense than just eFG%. Look at the opposing teams Ortg, for example

Lol. I'd tell you to explain how 09 shows him as being a bad defensive player but after responding to your mindless drivel and insecurities for so long Im not sure I can stand it

You should learn what an outlier is, and then get back to me
Still in denial, I see. You have to be, when you get wrecked this hard.

LeBron averaged 39/8/8/1/1 on 59% TS against the Magic in the '09 ECF.

This happened though:

"However, bigs with serious skills or serious speed can embarrass Z, and that was never more evident than it was in last year’s ECF when Dwight Howard absolutely blew by Z at every opportunity. Now Shaq has been brought in to solve this problem; it’ll be a while until Cavs fans figure out if that was the correct solution, but at least the brass didn’t pretend that Z would be able to stop the league’s elite bigs next season."

One of the main reasons as to why the Cavs lost.

Again, whenever Z was on the floor, the opponents shots better. Which literally implies, that he didn't have the defensive impact to hold openers to lower shooting percentages.

Dwight averaged 26/13/3/1/1 on nearly 70% TS against the "good" defenders Z and Varejao. Got his shit pushed in the very next series by ACTUAL good defenders Pau and Co.

For you, kid. Hold it:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-N9FfvU5Tn6k/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAAbk/wRTdJV2yAa8/photo.jpg

LostCause

08-24-2016, 09:56 AM

Still in denial, I see. You have to be, when you get wrecked this hard.

LeBron averaged 39/8/8/1/1 on 59% TS against the Magic in the '09 ECF.

This happened though:

"However, bigs with serious skills or serious speed can embarrass Z, and that was never more evident than it was in last year’s ECF when Dwight Howard absolutely blew by Z at every opportunity. Now Shaq has been brought in to solve this problem; it’ll be a while until Cavs fans figure out if that was the correct solution, but at least the brass didn’t pretend that Z would be able to stop the league’s elite bigs next season."

One of the main reasons as to why the Cavs lost.

Again, whenever Z was on the floor, the opponents shots better. Which literally implies, that he didn't have the defensive impact to hold openers to lower shooting percentages.

Dwight averaged 26/13/3/1/1 on nearly 70% TS against the "good" defenders Z and Varejao. Got his shit pushed in the very next series by ACTUAL good defenders Pau and Co.

For you, kid. Hold it:

I definitely have been getting wrecked, but only my expectations. Didn't think anyone could be so obtuse but surprise surprise...

The Lakers defended Howard entirely different than the Cavs did. LA double-triple teamed him constantly as soon as he got the ball, and for that the Magic wound up going to him less and less. He got nowhere near the touches or usage he did against Cleveland and that's by design, not because Pau is some world-class defender (He isn't) or Ilgauskas is terrible (He's not)

Not to mention even if Z has issues with Howard how would that make him bad defensively? I've already proven he wasn't a net negative defensively for the team during the 09 run, showing that he couldn't contain Howard 1 on 1 doesn't disprove that but I don't expect you to know what that means. Since you like posting images so much

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/59020582.jpg

aj1987

08-24-2016, 10:25 AM

The Lakers defended Howard entirely different than the Cavs did. LA double-triple teamed him constantly as soon as he got the ball, and for that the Magic wound up going to him less and less. He got nowhere near the touches or usage he did against Cleveland and that's by design, not because Pau is some world-class defender (He isn't) or Ilgauskas is terrible (He's not)
Going by the advanced metrics you love so much, Pau is actually a significantly better defender than Z.

:roll: @ Dwight getting "double-triple teamed" "constantly". Watch the series, kid. Box-scores only tell you a tiny fraction.

You're a fan of DRtg as well, right? Z in the RS had a DRtg of 101. In the Finals, he was at 112.

Dwight also got around 4 more shots a game in the ECF, compared to the Finals. 4 fewer shots and a drop in nearly 11 PPG. Also, his FG% went form 65% to 49%. The Lakers FC absolutely murdered Dwight and the Cavs couldn't do shit.

Pau went from 105 DRtg in the RS to 99 in the Finals. Heck, he had a DRtg of 103 in the WC series.

Elite AF in the PO's, as a matter of fact.

https://s4.postimg.org/gyws6zhv1/Screen_Shot_2016_08_24_at_7_44_35_PM.png

https://s4.postimg.org/teti0qb71/Screen_Shot_2016_08_24_at_7_44_59_PM.png

EDIT: Also, IIRC you said Brown is a really good defensive coach. If he was, why didn't he "double/triple" Dwight constantly? Doesn't that make sense? Also, why would they go get Shaq the very next season (from the article you posted)?

Not to mention even if Z has issues with Howard how would that make him bad defensively? I've already proven he wasn't a net negative defensively for the team during the 09 run, showing that he couldn't contain Howard 1 on 1 doesn't disprove that but I don't expect you to know what that means. Since you like posting images so much
You actually didn't though. You're just cherrypicking stats and arguments like 3ball. If one doesn't go in your favor, you rubbish it and pick one which supports your asinine arguments.

I still can't believe that I'm actually trying to educate an actual troll though.

L. Hold it.

LostCause

08-24-2016, 12:27 PM

Going by the advanced metrics you love so much, Pau is actually a significantly better defender than Z

Funny how the chick that was whining about DRtg for so long is now referencing it

:roll: @ Dwight getting "double-triple teamed" "constantly". Watch the series, kid. Box-scores only tell you a tiny fraction.

How about this, "kid". I'll let Bynum tell you himself

http://www.espn.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-090609
"But it's tough," Bynum said sympathetically, "when we're sending two and three people at him every time.""

****ing imbecile

You're a fan of DRtg as well, right? Z in the RS had a DRtg of 101. In the Finals, he was at 112.

Stop going on about pointless shit. I already said Z couldn't contain Dwight. You're beating a dead horse. The fact he had a 101 in the RS shows he's not nearly as bad defensively as the Howard series would suggest

Dwight also got around 4 more shots a game in the ECF, compared to the Finals. 4 fewer shots and a drop in nearly 11 PPG. Also, his FG% went form 65% to 49%. The Lakers FC absolutely murdered Dwight and the Cavs couldn't do shit.

Largely because he wasn't doubled/tripled as much against Cleveland

From an article: When Cleveland guarded him with just one defender, he ferociously attacked the rim and scored a career playoff-high 40 points. .....And when Cleveland did double team, he showed his maturity by passing out for four assists..

Fact is Z can't defend Dwight 1 on 1. That's something I haven't disagreed with this yet you keep going on and on about like it makes him a bad defender when 29 other teams don't have Dwight Howard.

You don't and won't get it. It's cool. I'm done trying to get you to see reason

Pau went from 105 DRtg in the RS to 99 in the Finals...

When you're doubling and tripling constantly, that tends to happen

....

Yet his on/off stats show that the defense was mostly better with him off the floor during the 09 playoffs
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2009/on-off/

"Elite AF" though :roll:

EDIT: Also, IIRC you said Brown is a really good defensive coach. If he was, why didn't he "double/triple" Dwight constantly? Doesn't that make sense? Also, why would they go get Shaq the very next season (from the article you posted)?

I never said Brown was a really good defensive coach. A quote I posted was the only thing that qualified Browns defensive coaching ability, but to answer your question, it does make sense but why are you asking me why they didn't?

They went to get Shaq because Z couldn't bang with Howard

You actually didn't though. You're just cherrypicking stats and arguments like 3ball. If one doesn't go in your favor, you rubbish it and pick one which supports your asinine arguments.

It's very simple
http://prnt.sc/c9t5cy

Unless you have some type of agenda there's no way anyone can look at that and say he didn't have a net positive defensive impact during the playoffs. You haven't argued this. All you're arguing is that Howard abused him, which he did, but Howard is one dude in a league of hundreds. Even WITH his performance against Howard, his PO defensive impact STILL comes out pretty solid

You don't understand this because your feeble brain can't process so much information but it's cool, others can see it

I still can't believe that I'm actually trying to educate an actual troll though.

L. Hold it.

Anyone reading the thread can see I've been calling out your pathetic attempts at logic and educating you on it this whole time, but at this point it's fruitless. You're obtuse

If you think you "won", cool story. Either way I'm done wasting my time. Have fun

aj1987

08-24-2016, 12:56 PM

Funny how the chick that was whining about DRtg for so long is now referencing it
You're the petty bitch who doesn't watch games, but goes off of articles (most of which contradict what you say) and advanced metrics.

How about this, "kid". I'll let Bynum tell you himself

http://www.espn.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-090609
"But it's tough," Bynum said sympathetically, "when we're sending two and three people at him every time.""
I'm not talking about some plays in a a game. Watch the entire series and tell me how Dwight was guarded. I'll bet your retarded ass a $1,000 that Dwight didn't get doubled/tripled constantly.

Largely because he wasn't doubled/tripled as much against Cleveland
Prove it. You can't just be saying shit without backing it up. Count the number of times that the Cavs/Lakers went straight up or doubled/tripled.

From an article: When Cleveland guarded him with just one defender, he ferociously attacked the rim and scored a career playoff-high 40 points. .....And when Cleveland did double team, he showed his maturity by passing out for four assists..

"Mike Brown still blames the team's inability to slow down the Magic in the ECF (103.7 ppg allowed) on the fact that the Cavs had to double team Dwight Howard in the post."

Fact is Z can't defend Dwight 1 on 1. That's something I haven't disagreed with this yet you keep going on and on about like it makes him a bad defender when 29 other teams don't have Dwight Howard.
That's beside the fact. I'm using Dwight as an example. They did go up against him and Dwight shit on Z. They had to scramble and get a 37 year old Shaq, because Z was an inept defender. That's a FACT.

When you're doubling and tripling constantly, that tends to happen
Check out Pau's DBPM as well. It's an advanced metric. You'll love it.

Yet his on/off stats show that the defense was mostly better with him off the floor during the 09 playoffs
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2009/on-off/

"Elite AF" though
This is the cherrypicking I'm talking about. Z has bad metrics? You use a different one to make your "point". Look at Pau's DBPM.

Since we're on the topic of +/- can you point out what lineups were being run when Z/Pau were on the court or off the court? You do realize that it makes a difference, right? I doubt you know that though.

One of the reasons as to why I actually prefer watching the games/footage, rather than basing my opinion off of box scores and advanced metrics.

BTW, according to +/-, Kobe was a net negative defender in the '09 Finals as well.

I never said Brown was a really good defensive coach. A quote I posted was the only thing that qualified Browns defensive coaching ability, but to answer your question, it does make sense but why are you asking me why they didn't?
To show that you posting out of context retarded articles isn't proving shit.

They went to get Shaq because Z couldn't bang with Howard
Exactly. A washed up 37 year old Shaq. They got him to do something which Z couldn't do to save his live.

Unless you have some type of agenda there's no way anyone can look at that and say he didn't have a net positive defensive impact during the playoffs. You haven't argued this. All you're arguing is that Howard abused him, which he did, but Howard is one dude in a league of hundreds. Even WITH his performance against Howard, his PO defensive impact STILL comes out pretty solid
No, it doesn't and I've PROVED it several times over. I'm done addressing this point. If you can't understand something this simple after the hundredth time, you never will. Pointless.

You don't understand this because your feeble brain can't process so much information but it's cool, others can see it
Bruh, when you don't know the difference between PPP and points per 100 possessions, you really shouldn't be talking smack about others. Just exposes your lack of intelligence further.

Anyone reading the thread can see I've been calling out your pathetic attempts at logic and educating you on it this whole time, but at this point it's fruitless. You're obtuse
You're "logic" is something which needs to studied to get a better insight into autism and dementia. The only "logic" which you're displayed is that you're an utter moron incapable of understanding basic english and simple numbers.

Once again, apt username. You're beyond retarded and a lost cause. No point in trying to teach you about basketball. I'm pretty sure that you haven't even seen Z play. Ever. As I said, it's really hard to explain how defenses/offenses work and what makes a player a good defender, if you just rely on box scores and advanced metrics.

If you think you "won", cool story. Either way I'm done wasting my time. Have fun
Yep. Hold the L and move on, you retarded turd.

LostCause

08-24-2016, 03:35 PM

You're the petty bitch

You really should go change that tampon, shorty. Don't be a messy bitch now in addition to a dim-witted one

You're "logic" is something which needs to studied to get a better insight into autism and dementia. The only "logic" which you're displayed is that you're an utter moron incapable of understanding basic english and simple numbers.

Proof that all truth eventually comes to light :

>"You're logic" (Your is the proper term here)
>"Which you're displayed" (Which you've displayed is what it should be)
>Then ironically says I'm the utter moron incapable of understanding basic english

Always funny when shit like that happens. A dumbass can only pretend to not be a dumbass for so long before he/she says some dumbass shit that shows shows what they are. That mask eventually comes off, every time. :roll: This is elementary school shit

Not bothering with the hoops shit, that's as dead as your brain cells but damn, you do this to yourself shorty

Trollsmasher

08-24-2016, 04:07 PM

the last page is some of the purest ISH autism ever produced

warriorfan

08-24-2016, 04:11 PM

AJ needs to get laid

Big time

TomCat

08-24-2016, 04:13 PM

AJ needs to get laid

Big time

More like the Virgins in this thread needs to get laid.

aj1987

08-24-2016, 05:51 PM

I really should go change that tampon. I'm a messy bitch now in addition to a dim-witted one
Damn! You're being too hard on your self, bitch.

Proof that all truth eventually comes to light :

>"You're logic" (Your is the proper term here)
>"Which you're displayed" (Which you've displayed is what it should be)
>Then ironically says I'm the utter moron incapable of understanding basic english
Oh wow! You found a couple of mistakes I made, which might've happened when I mistyped and they got auto-corrected. Good for you.

Always funny when shit like that happens. A dumbass can only pretend to not be a dumbass for so long before he/she says some dumbass shit that shows shows what they are. That mask eventually comes off, every time. :roll: This is elementary school shit
Says the guy who doesn't know the difference between PPP and points per 100 possessions. They don't even need any explanation. Their names literally describe what they are.

Whatever though. As I said, I wouldn't expect someone with a single digit IQ like yourself to understand though.

Not bothering with the hoops shit, that's as dead as your brain cells but damn, you do this to yourself shorty
Probably because you have the basketball knowledge of a retarded rock, bitch. You can't handle it and got put in your place. Now move along go back to the kitchen, where you belong and leave the basketball discussion to us, who actually understand and watch it.

On cue, the resident retard, warriorfag, shows up. Was it 2 posts ago, I mentioned his name? :oldlol:

More like the Virgins in this thread needs to get laid.
You realize that includes you and your alt account you quoted as well, right?