LeBron lost his case for GOAT after losing 3 straight seasons with HCA.

[ClipperRevival]

2008-09: Cavs (66-16) vs Magic (59-23)
2009-10: Cavs (61-21) vs Celtics (50-32)
2010-11: Heat (58-24) vs Mavericks (57-25)

MJ never lost when he had HCA and even won 6 times (including twice in the finals, 1993 and 1998) when he didn't have HCA.

[MaxPlayer]

Wait, you mean to say he dragged Moe Williams and Ilgauskas to 60+ wins?? Not once, but twice???

Holy shit... GOAT!

[BigKAT]

2008-09: Cavs (66-16) vs Magic (59-23)
2009-10: Cavs (61-21) vs Celtics (50-32)
2010-11: Heat (58-24) vs Mavericks (57-25)

MJ never lost when he had HCA and even won 6 times (including twice in the finals, 1993 and 1998) when he didn't have HCA.

I dunno man.

Lebron beat a 73 win team with a 57 win team.

That's 16 win difference.
I don't think Jordan ever did that.

P.S: Jordan is the GOAT. But this insecurity by his fans on this forum is hilarious.

[Nilocon165]

Wait, you mean to say he dragged Moe Williams and Ilgauskas to 60+ wins?? Not once, but twice???

Holy shit... GOAT!
:applause:

[ArbitraryWater]

You're telling me, he dragged Mo Williams' ass to 60+ wins twice? GOAT

[ClipperRevival]

I dunno man.

Lebron beat a 73 win team with a 57 win team.

That's 16 win difference.
I don't think Jordan ever did that.

P.S: Jordan is the GOAT. But this insecurity by his fans on this forum is hilarious.

I only stated simple facts, not biased opinions.

This puts things into perspective that getting to MJ's level as the true GOAT, let alone surpassing him is not done in one season.

[ArbitraryWater]

I only stated simple facts, not biased opinions.

This puts things into perspective that getting to MJ's level as the true GOAT, let alone surpassing him is not done in one season.

MJ 1-9 without Pippen in the playoffs

































Just a simple fact, right? No biased opinions

[andgar923]

Wait, you mean to say he dragged Moe Williams and Ilgauskas to 60+ wins?? Not once, but twice???

Holy shit... GOAT!
Clearly that team was good enough to win 60 wins, Bron simply couldn't seal the deal when it mattered the most.

[Hey Yo]

MJ lost his case when he took almost 2yrs off and quit right before the season started, while under contract......... plus still in his prime.

[ClipperRevival]

MJ 1-9 without Pippen in the playoffs

































Just a simple fact, right? No biased opinions

It is a fact. But a fact that means little when you look at proper context. First off, it was MJ's first 3 seasons in the league with a sh*t roster. But here are his numbers in those 3 seasons without Pip:

MJ's regular season numbers pre-Pippen (1985 - 1987, 3 seasons):

31.7 PPG, 27.8 PER, 5.6 RPG, 5.0 APG, 2.6 SPG, 1.2 BPG

MJ's playoff numbers pre-Pippen (1985 - 1987, 3 seasons):

35.5 PPG, 27.4 PER, 6.3 RPG, 6.9 APG, 2.4 SPG, 1.5 BPG

Those are peak numbers for almost any other great player but here we are with MJ, his haters only focusing on 1-9. This type of dissection comes with the territory of being in the GOAT conversation. And that is the point of my thread. If LeBron wants to get into MJ's class, get ready for a high level of scrutiny, just like MJ and be ready to back them up.

[ClipperRevival]

MJ lost his case when he took almost 2yrs off and quit right before the season started, while under contract......... plus still in his prime.

And came back at the ages of 33-35 and added: 3 rings, 3 fmvp, 2 mvp. Damn. I know.

:cheers:

[Hey Yo]

It is a fact. But a fact that means little when you look at proper context. First off, it was MJ's first 3 seasons in the league with a sh*t roster. But here are his numbers in those 3 seasons without Pip:

MJ's regular season numbers pre-Pippen (1985 - 1987, 3 seasons):

31.7 PPG, 27.8 PER, 5.6 RPG, 5.0 APG, 2.6 SPG, 1.2 BPG

MJ's playoff numbers pre-Pippen (1985 - 1987, 3 seasons):

35.5 PPG, 27.4 PER, 6.3 RPG, 6.9 APG, 2.4 SPG, 1.5 BPG

Those are peak numbers for almost any other great player but here we are with MJ, his haters only focusing on 1-9. This type of dissection comes with the territory of being in the GOAT conversation. And that is the point of my thread. If LeBron wants to get into MJ's class, get ready for a high level of scrutiny, just like MJ and be ready to back them up.
The above stats lead to

ZERO RINGS!!

[Hey Yo]

And came back at the ages of 33-35 and added: 3 rings, 3 fmvp, 2 mvp. Damn. I know.

:cheers:
At least you agree that he doesn't qualify.

[ClipperRevival]

The above stats lead to

ZERO RINGS!!

Come on bro. For one second, take off your MJ hating glasses and LOOK at the numbers he put up. That's crazy!

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I can see why you'd feel that way about 2011 and to a certain extent 2010 (LeLbow gate), but 2009 shouldnt even be in the convo. Dude had one of the greatest playoff runs in history while basically carrying his team against Orlando. Put it this way...using 2009 would be holding LeBron to insurmountable expectations, GOAT expectations matter of fact.

[ClipperRevival]

I can see why you'd feel that way about 2011 and to a certain extent 2010 (LeLbow gate), but 2009 shouldnt even be in the convo. Dude had one of the greatest playoff runs in history while basically carrying his team against Orlando. Put it this way...using 2009 would be holding LeBron to insurmountable expectations, GOAT expectations matter of fact.

He had the superior team in 2009. He was supposed to win.

On the flip side, MJ haters bash MJ for losing to maybe the GOAT team ever (1986 Celtics) where his team won 37 less games (not a typo) than the Celtics and put up these numbers:

43.7 PPG, 50% FG, 6.3 RPG, 5.7 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.3 BPG

Do you not see the hypocrisy? MJ haters only look at the team results even though MJ was clearly playing a far superior team yet LeBron lost when he was supposed to win yet they bring up his individual numbers as proof he did his part. That doesn't apply to MJ? Hypocrisy.

[ArbitraryWater]

Clearly that team was good enough to win 60 wins, Bron simply couldn't seal the deal when it mattered the most.

What broad statement is this? :lol How many wins do you estimate LeBron added to the team?

[ArbitraryWater]

He had the superior team in 2009. He was supposed to win.

On the flip side, MJ haters bash MJ for losing to maybe the GOAT team ever (1986 Celtics) where his team won 37 less games (not a typo) than the Celtics and put up these numbers:

43.7 PPG, 50% FG, 6.3 RPG, 5.7 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.3 BPG

Do you not see the hypocrisy? MJ haters only look at the team results even though MJ was clearly playing a far superior team yet LeBron lost when he was supposed to win yet they bring up his individual numbers as proof he did his part. That doesn't apply to MJ? Hypocrisy.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEduZ8RWdW8i4RldK/giphy.gif

[andgar923]

What broad statement is this? :lol How many wins do you estimate LeBron added to the team?

Does it matter?

What matters is, they won 60+ and he didn't deliver when it mattered the most. So if you're gonna give him all the credit for making that team be good enough to win 60, he should be held accountable for leading them to those losses.

Losses which have been well documented as HIS failure to deliver.

[ClipperRevival]

I can see why you'd feel that way about 2011 and to a certain extent 2010 (LeLbow gate), but 2009 shouldnt even be in the convo. Dude had one of the greatest playoff runs in history while basically carrying his team against Orlando. Put it this way...using 2009 would be holding LeBron to insurmountable expectations, GOAT expectations matter of fact.

Nah, GOAT expectations is putting up these numbers in the first 3 playoff series of your career against FAR superior teams:

35.5 PPG, 27.4 PER, 6.3 RPG, 6.9 APG, 2.4 SPG, 1.5 BPG

And still have haters bashing you and focusing on the team results.

[andgar923]

The OP's point is, if the team is good enough to have home court advantage then they shouldn't lose because clearly they were more than a good enough team.

MJ NEVER lost when they were a good enough team.

THAT is the main point.

[ClipperRevival]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEduZ8RWdW8i4RldK/giphy.gif

:oldlol: The truth too much huh?

66-16 team vs 59-23 team. I guess I need to go back to basic math class.

[Fire Colangelo]

:oldlol: The truth too much huh?

66-16 team vs 59-23 team. I guess I need to go back to basic math class.

Lebron wins most of his rings as the underdog while Jordan wins with the most stacked rosters, we already know that.

[ClipperRevival]

Does it matter?

What matters is, they won 60+ and he didn't deliver when it mattered the most. So if you're gonna give him all the credit for making that team be good enough to win 60, he should be held accountable for leading them to those losses.

Losses which have been well documented as HIS failure to deliver.

Yup.

[MaxPlayer]

So if Lebron had only managed to drag those scrubs to 50 wins instead of 60, he'd have a better resume?

#jordanstanlogic

[ArbitraryWater]

So if Lebron had only managed to drag those scrubs to 50 wins instead of 60, he'd have a better resume?

#jordanstanlogic

Guys are so shook right now, they're reaching Kobe fam retardness

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I wasnt aware you were only being facetious, OP. If this is just a reaction thread to what MJ 'haters' say then have at it. Dont really see the point in purposefully acting ignorant but to each his own.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I always love how Jordan stans try to justify their boy for getting swept :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

I wasnt aware you were only being facetious, OP. If this is just a reaction thread to what MJ 'haters' say then have at it. Dont really see the point in purposefully acting ignorant but to each his own.

Basically this.. if OP wants to have a good, level headed discussion again, give us a note

[Out_In_Utah]

I can see why you'd feel that way about 2011 and to a certain extent 2010 (LeLbow gate), but 2009 shouldnt even be in the convo. Dude had one of the greatest playoff runs in history while basically carrying his team against Orlando. Put it this way...using 2009 would be holding LeBron to insurmountable expectations, GOAT expectations matter of fact.
:sleeping

[andgar923]

So if Lebron had only managed to drag those scrubs to 50 wins instead of 60, he'd have a better resume?

#jordanstanlogic
No, you WANT to miss the point being made.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan stans SHOOK :lol

[sekachu]

I dunno man.

Lebron beat a 73 win team with a 57 win team.

That's 16 win difference.
I don't think Jordan ever did that.

P.S: Jordan is the GOAT. But this insecurity by his fans on this forum is hilarious.



I dunno man. The warriors didn't play like a 73 win team through out the playoff and Green got suspended oddly.

[TheWinningFam]

I love how you shit on lebron for his final record, then bring up when he lost in the playoffs it's hilarious because you people make it out like its better to lose in the playoffs than the finals for anyone else but that's not the case with him

[NBAGOAT]

shitting on him for 09 is asinine. Simple explanation besides all this stuff about lebron is the magic overperformed in the playoffs which happens all the time. There's a reason Toronto threw so much money at Hedo during the offseason. For example, it's really unreasonable to give Duncan blame in 06 for losing to the Mavs considering how he played. Same for Magic vs the Rockets in 86, there's not much he can do about Hakeem and Sampson going off. Anyway you guys are the same guys who contradict yourselves by saying MJ completely carried in 89 doing no wrong but then say he didn't learn to play optimally til he won a title.

[BigKAT]

shitting on him for 09 is asinine. Simple explanation besides all this stuff about lebron is the magic overperformed in the playoffs which happens all the time. There's a reason Toronto threw so much money at Hedo during the offseason. For example, it's really unreasonable to give Duncan blame in 06 for losing to the Mavs considering how he played. Same for Magic vs the Rockets in 86, there's not much he can do about Hakeem and Sampson going off. Anyway you guys are the same guys who contradict yourselves by saying MJ completely carried in 89 doing no wrong but then say he didn't learn to play optimally til he won a title.

You have a solid point.

But the fact he lost in 09' AND 10' is enough to hold it against him.
Amazing regular seasons, but we need to admit that he dropped the ball in the playoffs. And if not him personally, then his coach, team-- Someone did.

The same way that the Warriors 73 serves to make their loss worse, so does Lebron's superb RS records in 09-10.

[tpols]

2009 is tough to hold against Bron because he played well.. although with how bran stans prop the 73 win narrative, it is plausible to throw out the fact that bron lost with a 66 win team a round earlier (no context both ways right ?). 2010 and 2011 were obviously two of the bigger quit jobs in modern day basketball history.

[ArbitraryWater]

2009 is tough to hold against Bron because he played well.. although with how bran stans prop the 73 win narrative, it is plausible to throw out the fact that bron lost with a 66 win team a round earlier (no context both ways right ?). 2010 and 2011 were obviously two of the bigger quit jobs in modern day basketball history.

and STILL, his Boston series was better than Kobe's.. just to display the utter superiority between the two.

[tpols]

and STILL, his Boston series was better than Kobe's.. just to display the utter superiority between the two.

with context, no.. not even close.

[Nash]

I wonder if OP is telling us that Lebron dragged Mo Williams into a 60+ season?

[ShawkFactory]

and STILL, his Boston series was better than Kobe's.. just to display the utter superiority between the two.
Come on

Bron only played well in 2 games that series. Game 1 and game 3, where he was spectacular. Perhaps the most dominant performance against the Celtics that season.

But he was subpar in the other games. Particularly 5 and 6.

[ClipperRevival]

shitting on him for 09 is asinine. Simple explanation besides all this stuff about lebron is the magic overperformed in the playoffs which happens all the time. There's a reason Toronto threw so much money at Hedo during the offseason. For example, it's really unreasonable to give Duncan blame in 06 for losing to the Mavs considering how he played. Same for Magic vs the Rockets in 86, there's not much he can do about Hakeem and Sampson going off. Anyway you guys are the same guys who contradict yourselves by saying MJ completely carried in 89 doing no wrong but then say he didn't learn to play optimally til he won a title.

Show me where I said i'm shitting on him for 2009? I simply brought up the simple fact that he lost with HCA. Besides, this is a more valid point than the MJ haters degrading MJ for losing his first 3 seasons when he also put up GOAT level numbers but the difference with MJ was that he was playing FAR SUPERIOR teams and weren't expected to win while LeBron had HCA and was expected to win.

So that is why I always laugh at 1-9. But anytime people use the same criteria against LeBron, they can't handle it? Come on.

[ClipperRevival]

I wonder if OP is telling us that Lebron dragged Mo Williams into a 60+ season?

Mo Williams was an All-Star, who shot 43% from 3 that year and averaged 17.8 ppg. He was a very good player during that period.

I'm not going to bullsh*t anyone. LeBron is without a doubt one of the top 5 most impactful players ever. And he was the main reason why they won so many games. But as we all know, you still need help to win that many games.

And if you are going to give LeBron credit for winning that many regular season games, you can't just excuse him for losing when it matters. You can't choose your criteria and change it to fit your agenda.

[DirkNowitzki41]

Jordan fanboys stayin shooked of King James.

[ArbitraryWater]

Come on

Bron only played well in 2 games that series. Game 1 and game 3, where he was spectacular. Perhaps the most dominant performance against the Celtics that season.

But he was subpar in the other games. Particularly 5 and 6.

Lol, and when did Kobe ever play well? Bron was absolutely fantastic in games 1 and 3, better than any single Kobe game, and even his bad games dont look as bad as Kobe's, and they both have one all time dreadful game in there.

[tamaraw08]

Show me where I said i'm shitting on him for 2009? I simply brought up the simple fact that he lost with HCA. Besides, this is a more valid point than the MJ haters degrading MJ for losing his first 3 seasons when he also put up GOAT level numbers but the difference with MJ was that he was playing FAR SUPERIOR teams and weren't expected to win while LeBron had HCA and was expected to win.

So that is why I always laugh at 1-9. But anytime people use the same criteria against LeBron, they can't handle it? Come on.
Great point :rockon:

[ArbitraryWater]

Mo Williams was an All-Star, who shot 43% from 3 that year and averaged 17.8 ppg. He was a very good player during that period.

I'm not going to bullsh*t anyone. LeBron is without a doubt one of the top 5 most impactful players ever. And he was the main reason why they won so many games. But as we all know, you still need help to win that many games.

And if you are going to give LeBron credit for winning that many regular season games, you can't just excuse him for losing when it matters. You can't choose your criteria and change it to fit your agenda.

None of this makes any sense bro.... he carried bums and made em look good, but couldnt mask it in the playoffs. To put it really simple.

Need me to come over there and draw it out for you? He didnt have title winning help, or CF help.

[GimmeThat]

so winning a ring without the FMVP means absolutely nothing then?

[tamaraw08]

I wonder if OP is telling us that Lebron dragged Mo Williams into a 60+ season?
Mo was averaging like 17 points and 6 assists?

[DingDengDong]

Mo was averaging like 17 points and 6 assists?
He averaged 18 ppg in 2009 and was an all-star.

[tamaraw08]

None of this makes any sense bro.... he carried bums and made em look good, but couldnt mask it in the playoffs. To put it really simple.

Need me to come over there and draw it out for you? He didnt have title winning help, or CF help.
So you are calling Mo Williams a bum? Really? Did you check the facts esp before joining Lebron?

[Cone]

whatever op. if that helps you sleep at night. :oldlol:

[Milbuck]

MJ stans can get as defensive as they want but the reality is Lebron is getting close. Awfully close. It likely won't happen, but the comparison isn't a joke anymore. His GOAT potential is well alive people are talking.

[Hey Yo]

He averaged 18 ppg in 2009 and was an all-star.
He was a last minute injury replacement for the All-Star game.

If he had made All-NBA....then there would be a case.

[MaxPlayer]

MJ stans can get as defensive as they want but the reality is Lebron is getting close. Awfully close. It likely won't happen, but the comparison isn't a joke anymore. His GOAT potential is well alive people are talking.

If he can beat the historically-stacked Warriors again, he'll close a lot of distance.

[ArbitraryWater]

MJ stans can get as defensive as they want but the reality is Lebron is getting close. Awfully close. It likely won't happen, but the comparison isn't a joke anymore. His GOAT potential is well alive people are talking.

What makes it funnier, is that OP says he doesnt think Bron played bad in '09, but apparently its part of why he cant be GOAT... lol.. dudes are mind fcked at the moment

[NBAGOAT]

You have a solid point.

But the fact he lost in 09' AND 10' is enough to hold it against him.
Amazing regular seasons, but we need to admit that he dropped the ball in the playoffs. And if not him personally, then his coach, team-- Someone did.

The same way that the Warriors 73 serves to make their loss worse, so does Lebron's superb RS records in 09-10.

10 absolutely, he played poorly vs Boston. 10 and 11 are the black marks on his career. Just say he cant be GOAT because of those 2 years and you wont get much argument. He had maybe 1 bad game the whole playoffs in 09, he shouldn't get any blame based on stats or the eye test. I get what you're saying but i just have a hard time blaming someone just because his team didn't fulfill expectations created by fans who are wrong half the time anyway. Lebron leading that Cavs team to 55 wins would've been still really impressive and suddenly the narrative is Lebron took the Cavs to 6 vs a better team. We shouldn't penalize him for playing so well in the RS. Saying OP was shitting on Lebron may be overstating but saying he cant be GOAT partially 09 is still asinine. Jordan never losing with HCA is beyond impressive but this arbitrary criteria is a way for Jordan guys to not give anyone else a chance(even Russell technically lost with HCA once).

[Young X]

I don't hold the 2009 Magic series against James at all, but up to that point the Cavs were the better team, had homecourt and were expected to win the series. Let's not revise history. They underperformed.

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't hold the 2009 Magic series against James at all, but up to that point the Cavs were the better team, had homecourt and were expected to win the series. Let's not revise history. They underperformed.

Not really.. Bron fooled you. Bron made it look like they were the better team. Bron also had an entire country believe Delly was a viable title winning 2nd option for a couple days :lol #GOAT

[tamaraw08]

Not really.. Bron fooled you. Bron made it look like they were the better team. Bron also had an entire country believe Delly was a viable title winning 2nd option for a couple days :lol #GOAT
So you're saying Bron fooled the fans into believing the team can win but it didn't = he is a disappointment?= con artist?

[ArbitraryWater]

So you're saying Bron fooled the fans into believing the team can win but it didn't = he is a disappointment?

spot on for the bolded, but unsure how your conclusion relates to it

[Young X]

Not really.. Bron fooled you. Bron made it look like they were the better team. Bron also had an entire country believe Delly was a viable title winning 2nd option for a couple days :lol #GOATAll that is irrelevant to what I said. It's not about pointing fingers.

The Cavs were playing better than anyone up to that point. They were not supposed to lose to the Magic. It was supposed to be Lakers vs. Cavs in the finals. Let's not revise history here.

[ArbitraryWater]

All that is irrelevant to what I said. It's not about pointing fingers.

The Cavs were playing better than anyone up to that point. They were not supposed to lose to the Magic. It was supposed to be Lakers vs. Cavs in the finals. Let's not revise history here.

It was. But youre not including how much of that was due to LeBron. He continued playing the same way, where as its normal for glorified role players to get exposed in the playoffs.. dont tell me anything of what happened surprised you?

[Young X]

I already made it clear that Bron shouldn't have that loss held against him as an individual.

The Cavs as a team losing that series was a disappointment though. That's all I'm saying.

[ArbitraryWater]

I already made it clear that Bron shouldn't have that loss held against him as an individual.

The Cavs as a team losing that series was a disappointment though. That's all I'm saying.

And you thought those glorified role players would just breeze through the playoffs and continue to shine playing under pressure against good opponents?

[Young X]

It's not about what I thought. That's what was expected.

They were killing everybody all season up to that point and were supposed to face the Lakers in the finals.

It didn't happen and they ended up losing before expected. I'm not pointing fingers but that's how it unfolded.

And you keep bringing up "glorified role players" on the Cavs like the team they lost to wasn't like that either...

[I<3NBA]

what's more amazing is that he had HCA on those two occasions with the Cavs.

[TheCorporation]

He's 31.

[Mr Feeny]

with context, no.. not even close.Yes. Absolutely yes.

And then lebron went out and got 2 games against Dallas while your hero got swept.

[Mr Feeny]

Come on

Bron only played well in 2 games that series. Game 1 and game 3, where he was spectacular. Perhaps the most dominant performance against the Celtics that season.

But he was subpar in the other games. Particularly 5 and 6.sub par = 27 points, 19 rebounds and 10 assists. Apparently.:oldlol:

[Sarcastic]

what's more amazing is that he had HCA on those two occasions with the Cavs.

Not really. The East was that bad.

[tamaraw08]

I already made it clear that Bron shouldn't have that loss held against him as an individual.

The Cavs as a team losing that series was a disappointment though. That's all I'm saying.
I agree, it works both ways tho, I am so tired of hearing Lebron beat a 73 win team as if his teammates didn't do anything. If they lose, it's because of his bum teammates

[ArbitraryWater]

It's not about what I thought. That's what was expected.

They were killing everybody all season up to that point and were supposed to face the Lakers in the finals.

It didn't happen and they ended up losing before expected. I'm not pointing fingers but that's how it unfolded.

And you keep bringing up "glorified role players" on the Cavs like the team they lost to wasn't like that either...

looool

Im not pointing fingers, Im telling you you should have seen it coming. Glorified regular season excelling role players dont just continue with the same in the postseason... well bad for you not being able to tell, I guess.

[ArbitraryWater]

Not really. The East was that bad.

The East was actually good.. in fact, they even won the H2H with the West in '09. Try again.

[sammichoffate]

The East was actually good.. in fact, they even won the H2H with the West in '09. Try again.https://s4.postimg.org/7c3u4bj31/2016_08_25_11_36_19_2009_NBA_Playoffs_Wikipedi.png
https://s13.postimg.org/v3n4ki4qv/2016_08_25_11_36_02_2009_NBA_Playoffs_Wikipedi.png
East wasn't that good, Hawks and every team below it wouldn't have made the playoffs out west.

[ClipperRevival]

10 absolutely, he played poorly vs Boston. 10 and 11 are the black marks on his career. Just say he cant be GOAT because of those 2 years and you wont get much argument. He had maybe 1 bad game the whole playoffs in 09, he shouldn't get any blame based on stats or the eye test. I get what you're saying but i just have a hard time blaming someone just because his team didn't fulfill expectations created by fans who are wrong half the time anyway. Lebron leading that Cavs team to 55 wins would've been still really impressive and suddenly the narrative is Lebron took the Cavs to 6 vs a better team. We shouldn't penalize him for playing so well in the RS. Saying OP was shitting on Lebron may be overstating but saying he cant be GOAT partially 09 is still asinine. Jordan never losing with HCA is beyond impressive but this arbitrary criteria is a way for Jordan guys to not give anyone else a chance(even Russell technically lost with HCA once).

All valid points except for the last sentence. There is nothing aribtrary about never losing with HCA. That is very impressive and MJ should be given extra credit for accomplishing that.

[Hey Yo]

All valid points except for the last sentence. There is nothing aribtrary about never losing with HCA. That is very impressive and MJ should be given extra credit for accomplishing that.
But the 3 titles that LeBron won, as the underdog, while leading his team in every major statistical catagory.... shouldn't be looked at as extra credit? The mighty West falling to the alleged shitty East?

4 FMVP votes in a losing cause doesn't account for anything...considering it hadn't happened in 46yrs??

[Doranku]

https://s4.postimg.org/7c3u4bj31/2016_08_25_11_36_19_2009_NBA_Playoffs_Wikipedi.png
https://s13.postimg.org/v3n4ki4qv/2016_08_25_11_36_02_2009_NBA_Playoffs_Wikipedi.png
East wasn't that good, Hawks and every team below it wouldn't have made the playoffs out west.

lmfao LeBron's first AND second round opponents wouldn't have even made the playoffs out West. :oldlol:

[NBAGOAT]

All valid points except for the last sentence. There is nothing aribtrary about never losing with HCA. That is very impressive and MJ should be given extra credit for accomplishing that.

sure MJ can be given credit for that. The arbitrary part is saying you cant be considered GOAT if you lost with HCA which is what you kind of said to a small extent. As i said in the previous post, even Russell lost with HCA so it's a way to discount any other all time great in the GOAT discussion.

[AintNoSunshine]

Jordan stans claim LeBron isn't threating Jordan's status as GOAT, but them reeking insecurity speaks otherwise.:oldlol:

[ClipperRevival]

But the 3 titles that LeBron won, as the underdog, while leading his team in every major statistical catagory.... shouldn't be looked at as extra credit? The mighty West falling to the alleged shitty East?

4 FMVP votes in a losing cause doesn't account for anything...considering it hadn't happened in 46yrs??

Of course he gets credit. Why do you think he is widely accepted as a top 5 and some as a top 3? Because he had a finals for the ages and legendary performances carry extra weight. But one finals doesn't make you the GOAT or else Rick Barry would have a case for GOAT. The discussion here is for the GOAT, not for one of the best ever, which LeBron already is. The standards are as high as it gets.

[ClipperRevival]

sure MJ can be given credit for that. The arbitrary part is saying you cant be considered GOAT if you lost with HCA which is what you kind of said to a small extent. As i said in the previous post, even Russell lost with HCA so it's a way to discount any other all time great in the GOAT discussion.

Perhaps that's a bit too absolute in thinking but when being compared to MJ, the standards are as high as it can get. He never lost with HCA and LeBron lost 3 straight seasons with HCA. That's advantage MJ.

And you also factor in MJ having 6 rings and 6 fmvp while LeBron has half of each and MJ being the all time leader in ppg and PER for regular season and playoffs, so from an objective perspective, he still has a ways to go to actually get on the same playing field as MJ.

[tamaraw08]

But the 3 titles that LeBron won, as the underdog, while leading his team in every major statistical catagory.... shouldn't be looked at as extra credit? The mighty West falling to the alleged shitty East?

4 FMVP votes in a losing cause doesn't account for anything...considering it hadn't happened in 46yrs??
Very hard to give full credit when you abandon your home team to collude with TWO hall of famers to lose to Dallas and rely on a clutch 3 from another ring chaser to win your 2nd ring. I'm with Clipperrevival tho. For me Lebron is GOAT SF but not GOAT period

[Dray n Klay]

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OP, can you figure out what that means?