Is Michael Jordan considered the best defensive guard ever? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

ClipperRevival

08-28-2016, 11:56 PM

Yes.

6'6", long, cat quick and most importantly, took pride in his D. Defense is about desire/effort. If you don't have that in you, you don't get to that GOAT level D.

You had others like Coop, Moncrief, Robertson, Payton, CP3, West, etc but give me MJ. Anything over 6'6" and you are talking SF size. So MJ gave you max height for a guard along with PG type quickness.

Jameerthefear

08-29-2016, 12:03 AM

Nope. I don't consider him that.

Dray n Klay

08-29-2016, 12:09 AM

Nope. I don't consider him that.

Agreed

What's next, Jordan was the best 3 point shooter in NBA History? :roll: :roll:

The myths/fairy tales about this guy is ridiculous, spearheaded by posters like ClipperRevival spewing made up facts to prop up his idol.

FKAri

08-29-2016, 12:13 AM

ClipperRevival

08-29-2016, 12:14 AM

Agreed

What's next, Jordan was the best 3 point shooter in NBA History? :roll: :roll:

The myths/fairy tales about this guy is ridiculous, spearheaded by posters like ClipperRevival spewing made up facts to prop up his idol.

There are no myths/fairy tales about MJ there you. He played in the modern era and every game he played is on film. Most people 35 and over got to see him live.

And what's up with your avatar? :rolleyes: Are you that insecure about MJ that you need to reach that low?

ClipperRevival

08-29-2016, 12:16 AM

I don't see how CP is an all time great defensive guard. I'd take Kidd over CP3 defensively.

For a PG, he's up there for me. I got to see him when he got to the Clips and his D is unreal, especially for a 6'0" guy. I've seen him literally force steals when he felt the need to do so many times.

G-train

08-29-2016, 12:19 AM

I would say generally Jordan is considered the greatest defensive guard ever.

How many guards have won DPOY? It's a short list.

But regardless of that, 87-93 Jordan was as good of a defender as you will see, in every way. It's a big reason why he was considered the best player in the league at the time.

You can make a case for Payton definitely, but to answer the OP I would say generally Jordan.

GrapeApe

08-29-2016, 12:29 AM

Absolutely. Elite man defender, ball thief, help defender, and highly intelligent. Probably the most savvy defender I've ever seen, regardless of position.

Cali Syndicate

08-29-2016, 12:51 AM

One of the few perimeter players to win DPOY, only guard to record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season (which he did twice), consecutive defensive first team selections throughout his career, numerous coaches and players attesting to his elite defensive prowess....I'd say he's definitely there in the convo

Akrazotile

08-29-2016, 01:04 AM

When Baron Davis actually tried to play D, he was probably the best man defender of any guard I've ever seen. He could shut people down for real.

Also Tony Allen, but it's kind of unfair to count guys in the Allen, Sefolosha, Bowen, Rodman mold etc. who are allowed to basically save all their energy for defense.

In terms of guys who had to play key roles on both ends, B Diddy was definitely a monster among guards.

Smoke117

08-29-2016, 01:52 AM

CR sucking off his bf as usual...:roll: :roll: :roll:

LostCause

08-29-2016, 06:02 AM

He's definitely in any discussion for GOAT perimeter defenders. Anyone saying otherwise is delusional

Though, Walt Frazier should also be mentioned here

comerb

08-29-2016, 11:38 AM

Sidney Moncrief. I'd put Jordan at a very close second though. Jordan had better steals and blocking stats because of his athleticism because he'd gamble; but Moncrief was the guy that just made your day consistently miserable as an offensive player.

Dragonyeuw

08-29-2016, 02:20 PM

The fact that he's even in the discussion, with the GOAT level offensive production, speaks volumes. Imagine if he didn't have that scoring ability and was a defensive specialist, squarely focusing on that side of the ball like a Tony Allen.

ArbitraryWater

08-29-2016, 02:28 PM

Not quite.

SwayDizzle

08-29-2016, 02:30 PM

Kobe is up there

Akrazotile

08-29-2016, 02:35 PM

Kobe is up there

http://media1.popsugar-assets.com/files/2014/07/02/997/n/1922283/d01950272ef3ac9e_83551143K0Zjlg.xxxlarge/i/When-Kramer-Does-Epic-Spit-Take.gif

Mr Feeny

08-29-2016, 02:43 PM

Kobe is up there

http://i.imgur.com/zfgdW.gif

Young X

08-29-2016, 02:43 PM

Why not?

Man defense
Help defense
Steals
Blocks
DPOY
Bunch of All-NBA D selections
A part of the best perimeter defense ever

SilkkTheShocker

08-29-2016, 03:24 PM

1-9.

BarberSchool

08-29-2016, 04:07 PM

1x Defensive player of the year
3x league leader in steals, every other year in top 3-5
9x time first team all defense
Elite shotblocking on&off ball for a forward, at SG

Who has been better in a better era ?
Nobody.

Smoke117

08-29-2016, 04:10 PM

Cali Syndicate

08-29-2016, 05:42 PM

DPOY means shit in regards to perimeter players...Scottie Pippen in 95 is the only perimeter player who has actually deserved it over the best defensive big men (and he got screwed out of it ironically...lol)...Hakeem was clearly the best defensive player in the world and league when Jordan was given DPOY.

I remember Gary Payton saying that he felt he was actually a better defender in 95 than he was in 96 but only ended up getting a total of 2 votes in the 95 ballot. He said that he feels a lot of the voting is based off stats and made a conscious effort to up his steals in 96, where he ended up winning the dpoy. I don't know how much truth there is in that because Payton managed to tally just half a steal more per game but mj definitely had some amazing defensive stats in 88.

Smoke117

08-29-2016, 05:45 PM

I remember Gary Payton saying that he felt he was actually a better defender in 95 than he was in 96 but only ended up getting a total of 2 votes in the 95 ballot. He said that he feels a lot of the voting is based off stats and made a conscious effort to up his steals in 96, where he ended up winning the dpoy. I don't know how much truth there is in that because Payton managed to tally just half a steal more per game but mj definitely had some amazing defensive stats in 88.

See 96 for instance...David Robinson was CLEARLY the best and most impactful defensive player in the league...but they give it to ****ing gary payton...a POINT GUARD? As if his defensive impact could even come close to Robinsons...hell Shawn Kemp had a bigger impact on the Sonics defense (same way Jermaine Oneal did when Artest won it) than Payton did...that makes it an even bigger joke when they give it to perimeter players...they usually have a big man who means more to the defense then they do.

It really is about stats...Pippen led the the nba in Drating (only perimeter player to EVER do that) and had the BUlls 2nd in defense after losing 2/3 of their best defensive players (jordan and grant) in 95 and they give it to Mutombo? lol...why? Because he averaged 4bpg.

bdreason

08-29-2016, 05:48 PM

I think so. Payton was an amazing defender, but I think MJ was more explosive and more instinctive.

Cali Syndicate

08-29-2016, 05:51 PM

See 96 for instance...David Robinson was CLEARLY the best and most impactful defensive player in the league...but they give it to ****ing gary payton...a POINT GUARD? As if his defensive impact could even come close to Robinsons...hell Shawn Kemp had a bigger impact on the Sonics defense (same way Jermaine Oneal did when Artest won it) than Payton did...that makes it an even bigger joke when they give it to perimeter players...they usually have a big man who means more to the defense then they do.

It really is about stats...Pippen led the the nba in Drating (only perimeter player to EVER do that) and had the BUlls 2nd in defense after losing 2/3 of their best defensive players (jordan and grant) in 95 and they give it to Mutombo? lol...why? Because he averaged 4bpg.

I find it funny Marc gasol wins DPOY and cant even make the all defensive 1st team yet Tony Allen, his own teammate, does.

Dro

08-29-2016, 06:51 PM

swagga

08-29-2016, 06:57 PM

lmao talking about steals as if they are a real metric of defense instead of a dumb overplay, almost always sanctioned by real offenses .. if you want real talk just imagine peak lebron with legal handchecking.

https://theclemreport.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/vcover.gif

PistonsFan#21

08-29-2016, 07:26 PM

swagga

08-29-2016, 07:39 PM

I specifically asked about best defensive GUARD. not forward or center

well in today's game of 3 guards + 2 forwards lebron has played mostly as a guard for his career.

if you want it from a nomenclature standpoint then tony allen, his impact is just unreal, he can defend tight, loose, off ball, on ball, strong, can switch 1/2/3/small 4s, extraordinary lateral speed and anticipation. Doing what he did in this no handcheck, blocking foul era is just insane imo. He did play some SF tho.

A pure defensive guard i'd take payton. Compared to jordan he didn't overplay the ball, which made him a more fundamental and reliable defender in tough scenarios.

Sarcastic

08-29-2016, 07:50 PM

well in today's game of 3 guards + 2 forwards lebron has played mostly as a guard for his career.

if you want it from a nomenclature standpoint then tony allen, his impact is just unreal, he can defend tight, loose, off ball, on ball, strong, can switch 1/2/3/small 4s, extraordinary lateral speed and anticipation. Doing what he did in this no handcheck, blocking foul era is just insane imo. He did play some SF tho.

A pure defensive guard i'd take payton. Compared to jordan he didn't overplay the ball, which made him a more fundamental and reliable defender in tough scenarios.

Lebron has played a lot more PF than he has SG. On offense he plays the point, but on defense he doesn't guard the backcourt guys.

SwayDizzle

08-29-2016, 07:50 PM

http://media1.popsugar-assets.com/files/2014/07/02/997/n/1922283/d01950272ef3ac9e_83551143K0Zjlg.xxxlarge/i/When-Kramer-Does-Epic-Spit-Take.gif
Kobe's man to man defense is some of the best i've ever seen. It's clear as day that if he chose to focus on that exclusively, he would be the clear cut best. However, with such a rich offensive arsenal, and having to conserve most of his energy to contribute towards scoring, some may be fooled into thinking he isn't up there with the best defensively. When he was fired up and locked in, superstars such as lebron, stand no chance.

Akrazotile

08-29-2016, 07:53 PM

Lebron has played a lot more PF than he has SG. On offense he plays the point, but on defense he doesn't guard the backcourt guys.

Tell that to Derrick Rose and Tony Parker.

When the chips are down, Lebron guards the best perimeter player. Regardless of who it is.

swagga

08-29-2016, 08:01 PM

Lebron has played a lot more PF than he has SG. On offense he plays the point, but on defense he doesn't guard the backcourt guys.

career.

swagga

08-29-2016, 08:03 PM

Kobe's man to man defense is some of the best i've ever seen. It's clear as day that if he chose to focus on that exclusively, he would be the clear cut best. However, with such a rich offensive arsenal, and having to conserve most of his energy to contribute towards scoring, some may be fooled into thinking he isn't up there with the best defensively. When he was fired up and locked in, superstars such as lebron, stand no chance.

his man to man is GOAT tier, agree there.
however:
- his post defense is weak.
- he couldn't rotate on bigger players.
Those were hidden by shaq eating all of the paint and teams rarely creating the space to post up bryant. When they did (04 pistons come to mind) they badly torched kobe on the block.

As you can see I take all aspects of defense into consideration.

Smoke117

08-29-2016, 08:09 PM

Kobe's man to man defense is some of the best i've ever seen. It's clear as day that if he chose to focus on that exclusively, he would be the clear cut best. However, with such a rich offensive arsenal, and having to conserve most of his energy to contribute towards scoring, some may be fooled into thinking he isn't up there with the best defensively. When he was fired up and locked in, superstars such as lebron, stand no chance.

And you know what matters most defensively? EFFORT...something kobe rarely gave consistently when it came to defense. Doesn't matter how good you are if you don't actually ****ing go out there and try.

Smoke117

08-29-2016, 08:18 PM

The best defensive guard to me would be Jason Kidd. His help/team defense is unsurpassed by anyone on the perimeter, but Scottie.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-29-2016, 08:21 PM

Moncrief is a pretty good choice but also lacks the SUSTAINED dominance of Jordan. At their best, I wouldn't argue with anyone picking Sid. There's an older video up on Youtube (Bulls vs Bucks playoffs IIRC) that has several possessions of Jordan being locked down by dude. Like...having nowhere to go and needing constant bailouts. Granted MJ was a rook, but still, not sure I've ever seen him get roasted on that end...several times in ONE game.

GP hounded Mike to close the 96 Finals, but this was total ownage. I'll post the link here if I can find it.

tpols

08-29-2016, 08:21 PM

The best defensive guard to me would be Jason Kidd. His help/team defense is unsurpassed by anyone on the perimeter, but Scottie.

also his rebounding & transition game .. GOAT stuff

jlip

08-29-2016, 08:26 PM

A guard winning DPOY in the first years of the award was not special. The award was created in 1983, and five of the first six winners were guards. Michael Cooper even won it in 1987 as a 6th man.

PistonsFan#21

09-04-2016, 09:48 AM

A guard winning DPOY in the first years of the award was not special. The award was created in 1983, and five of the first six winners were guards. Michael Cooper even won it in 1987 as a 6th man.

the DPOY award isnt the only argument for Jordan over other guards. His actual skills and impact on the court is what sets him up there as one of the greatest defensove guards

jlip

09-04-2016, 09:24 PM

the DPOY award isnt the only argument for Jordan over other guards. His actual skills and impact on the court is what sets him up there as one of the greatest defensove guards

I never said that him winning DPOY was the only argument for him over other guards. I was combating the argument that him winning the award "as a guard" was something special or unique.

AirBonner

09-04-2016, 10:08 PM

Marcus Smart. Versatile. Shut down paul millsap

72-10

01-16-2021, 08:22 PM

Kobe's man to man defense is some of the best i've ever seen. It's clear as day that if he chose to focus on that exclusively, he would be the clear cut best. However, with such a rich offensive arsenal, and having to conserve most of his energy to contribute towards scoring, some may be fooled into thinking he isn't up there with the best defensively. When he was fired up and locked in, superstars such as lebron, stand no chance.

It was great, but it's not quite as good as MJ's, and his help defense was considerably worse than MJ's. MJ is clearly the best defensive shooting guard, but there's no chance that he's the best defensive guard, it's clearly Gary Payton. There's a chance he's second, though - Jerry West, Walt Frazier, Sidney Moncrief, Tony Allen, Chris Paul, Joe Dumars are some others almost as good.

Manny98

01-16-2021, 08:25 PM

https://i.postimg.cc/t4zVZDqk/78cHer.gif

Axe

01-16-2021, 08:50 PM

Scottie 'tree trunk' pippen

trada7029

01-16-2021, 09:29 PM

Scottie 'tree trunk' pippen

DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)

MJ was top 5 DPOY from 88-98' - so he was arguably the best defender over that span based on this metric

Top 5 dpoy and scoring champ is the highest level on both sides of the ball - Jordan maintained this from 88-98' with 6 titles, aka goat

Axe

01-16-2021, 10:42 PM

DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)

MJ was top 5 DPOY from 88-98' - so he was arguably the best defender over that span based on this metric

Top 5 dpoy and scoring champ is the highest level on both sides of the ball - Jordan maintained this from 88-98' with 6 titles, aka goat
Shookt! :roll:

kawhileonard2

01-16-2021, 10:46 PM

For Guards yes. If including SF it is me.

72-10

01-17-2021, 12:44 AM

It's not as though he didn't play defense, but Jordan's DPOY voting in the late '90s was granted based on reputation more than performance and his outstanding play on the offensive side of the ball. He'd always play well in traps and lockdown D at the end of games, but his defense on the whole in that era was rather intermittent compared with Pippen's constant defensive attack. And despite the voting, Scottie Pippen was the more effective defender, through the late '90s. The only reason Pippen's voting suffered in '98 was because he was injured much of the season. In addition to thiss, defense had considerably improved in the late '90s compared with the late '80s. Pippen was the better defender each and every year starting with 1994.