Wilt is #1 and #2 All time in PER, stop Over-rating MJ!

[Big164]

1. Wilt Chamberlain 31.82
2. Wilt Chamberlain 31.74
3. Michael Jordan 31.71
4. Lebron James 31.67
5. Wilt Chamberlain 31.63
6. Michael Jordan 31.63
7. Lebron James 31.59
8. Steph Curry 31.46
9. Michael Jordan 31.18
10. Michael Jordan 31.14

Give Wilt the greatest SF defender ever(Pippen) and the greatest PF defender ever(Rodman) and hed win 9 championships...minimum! Rings are a collective accomplishment, WIlt was Superior as an alpha Male. Numbers dont lie.

[BigKAT]

But what was his PER in the playoffs?

Found it.

18th all time with 22.75

Michael Jordan, Mikan and James round out top 3 with about 28, 27 each.

[Big164]

But what was his PER in the playoffs?

Found it.

18th all time with 22.75

Michael Jordan, Mikan and James round out top 3 with about 28, 27 each.
Wilt played the bulk of his playoff career after major knee surgery. Plus Wilt won his 2 rings over Kareem and Russell. That beats the hell out of MJs Karl malone/GaryPayton any day

[Young X]

But what was his PER in the playoffs?

Found it.

18th all time with 22.75Nothing more needs to be said.

[Big164]

24.6 rebounds per game in the finals. Go find something greater than that you virgin mj fans.

[Dro]

Somebody is mad...And when folks get mad on here, they go after MJ...

[BigKAT]

24.6 rebounds per game in the finals. Go find something greater than that you virgin mj fans.


41 Pts on 50% shooting.

[SouBeachTalents]

24.6 rebounds per game in the finals. Go find something greater than that you virgin mj fans.

34 ppg in the Finals & 6 FMVP's > 25 rpg

[Young X]

24.6 rebounds per game in the finals. Go find something greater than that you virgin mj fans.31.2 PPG, 11.4 APG on 55.8% shooting.

[ZMonkey11]

Quit on this thread OP. Plane is crashing. Eject.

[Big164]

Obviously no one can find greater rebounding stats in the finals because wilt owns every record there is. Unlike Rodman, wilts rebounding numbers were consistently dominant in the post season. Wilt is the greatest rebounder of all time. Scoring is actually his secondary trade and he still owns half the records in nba history.

Oldest man to ever score 45 in the post season hhhmm I wonder who? Chamberlain, bitches!

[NBAGOAT]

leave the wilt over mj stuff to laz. yea wilt's playoff woes get overblown and you're right about most of his ps games coming from past his prime but he's still not a top 5 playoff performer of all time while mj's the best ever in the playoffs

[Dro]

What's weird is that many people including myself, never liked MJ when he played and we still know he's the undisputed GOAT pretty much...

[ClipperRevival]

Just a shame dude couldn't do this when it mattered most huh?

[ClipperRevival]

What's weird is that many people including myself, never liked MJ when he played and we still know he's the undisputed GOAT pretty much...

That's the thing these youngsters don't realize. Most MJ fans on this board didn't grow up MJ fans. We were forced to appreciate his greatness by heartbreak. I was heartbroken when MJ beat my Lakers in 1991. Thought we had it when Perkins hit that 3 in game 1. But damn, that MJ grew up right before the world and took it.

[Big164]

Just a shame dude couldn't do this when it mattered most huh?
Give me a list of non celtics with 2 rings or more who played every year of the sixties.

[Big164]

That's the thing these youngsters don't realize. Most MJ fans on this board didn't grow up MJ fans. We were forced to appreciate his greatness by heartbreak. I was heartbroken when MJ beat my Lakers in 1991. Thought we had it when Perkins hit that 3 in game 1. But damn, that MJ grew up right before the world and took it.
Mj looked so amateur the few times he went up against kareem. Wilt was Kareem's daddy and out rebounded him in every year they were in the league together.

[iamgine]

But what was his PER in the playoffs?

Found it.

18th all time with 22.75

Michael Jordan, Mikan and James round out top 3 with about 28, 27 each.
:lol

[ClipperRevival]

Mj looked so amateur the few times he went up against kareem. Wilt was Kareem's daddy and out rebounded him in every year they were in the league together.

MJ never faced KAJ in the playoffs. I don't see your point.

[Big164]

I don't want to heAr sh@t about the playoffs when Mj had the greatest defensive sf all time doing the dirty work, and the greatest defensive Pf doing thedirty from96-98

[BigKAT]

I'm not even upset.

This thread is hilarious.
Keep it coming Big164.

Heck, I'ma rate it 5 stars.

[Young X]

I don't want to heAr sh@t about the playoffs when Mj had the greatest defensive sf all time doing the dirty work, and the greatest defensive of doing thedirty from96-98Wilt had Jerry West averaging 38 a game in the finals, winning FMVP and still lost to the old ass Celtics with homecourt.

[iamgine]

I don't want to heAr sh@t about the playoffs
:lol

[Psileas]

leave the wilt over mj stuff to laz. yea wilt's playoff woes get overblown and you're right about most of his ps games coming from past his prime but he's still not a top 5 playoff performer of all time while mj's the best ever in the playoffs

He may very well be a top 5 playoff performer. Even his raw playoff numbers, used to disparage him (LOL), are easily among the most impressive of all-time, despite his scoring being skewed due to him playing 2/3rd of his games after his high scoring seasons were over and despite him facing an all-time elite defender at his position at an abnormally high percentage of times.
His playoff "woes" are not really that many or any worse compared to the woes of other legends, for which they are never called for, because they had never been dominant enough in the first place to draw so much attention. Really. Take other legends' underperformances and put them next to Wilt's, and Wilt won't look even half bad.

[NBAGOAT]

He may very well be a top 5 playoff performer. Even his raw playoff numbers, used to disparage him (LOL), are easily among the most impressive of all-time, despite his scoring being skewed due to him playing 2/3rd of his games after his high scoring seasons were over and despite him facing an all-time elite defender at his position at an abnormally high percentage of times.
His playoff "woes" are not really that many or any worse compared to the woes of other legends, for which they are never called for, because they had never been dominant enough in the first place to draw so much attention. Really. Take other legends' underperformances and put them next to Wilt's, and Wilt won't look even half bad.

idk mj, russell, kareem, magic, lebron. someone like magic for example only has a 3 game series and the 84 finals.

[k0kakw0rld]

KAJ >>>> Both

End thread \

[Big164]

Wilt outrebounded Peak KAJ in every single season they were in the league together,

Wilt also beat out Peak KAJ in All defensive team selections..every single year


An Old injured wilt did these things, KAJ retires a 1 ring wonder without Magic.

[aj1987]

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

[BigKAT]

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

It's over. :roll:

[Psileas]

idk mj, russell, kareem, magic, lebron. someone like magic for example only has a 3 game series and the 84 finals.

If someone wants to find blemishes with the same ease some do for Wilt, it's more than that. For example, his '83 Finals, shooting 40% in the series while getting swept, can be used against him. His '96 series is obviously far from great, and while it's reasonable, due to him missing for years and his age, we know that no excuse is offered to Wilt in '70, despite having come back after a huge injury, at a pretty advanced age. Even his '85 Finals can be used against him due to him not winning a single F.MVP vote.
Similarly, lots of holes can be found in the others' playoff careers, if we are to scrutinize them as thoroughly as these people do for Wilt's.

[LAZERUSS]

It's over. :roll:

:roll: :roll: :roll:


Of course, the REAL Finals in Chamberlain's prime, the decade of the 60's, involved the Celtics vs. WILT. In Wilt's prime, he was in the Eastern Conference in seven of those 10 seasons...and faced the GOAT Dynasty in either his first, or second round, in SIX of them. Aside from his '69 season, when his incompetent COACH chose West and Baylor's offense over Wilt's (and was basically run out of town immediately after that Finals), Wilt played in the West in two more seasons. In one, his team was so bad that they didn't make the playoffs (and all Chamberlain could do was average 45 ppg, and lead the league in 15 of the 22 statistical categories of the time.)

So, again, excluding '69, when his coach preferred losing over having Wilt lead his team to a title...Chamberlain faced a Western Division foe exactly...ONCE...in the entire decade of the 60's. Not coincidently, all he could do was average 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and shoot .559 from the floor (in an NBA that shot .420 in that post-season), which included one game of 50 points, and a clinching game seven of 39-26 with 10 blocks. ONE SERIES.

How did a prime Wilt fare against the CELTICS in that decade? Again, let's forget the '69 Finals (in which he still outplayed Russell)...and he had post-seasons of 22-25-7 (on an injured leg in a seven game series); 22-32-10; 28-30; 29-28; 30-31; 31-27; and 34-27.

Furthermore, had Wilt been in the WD in his prime, he likely would have faced the Lakers several times in the WD playoffs. Russell built his post-season stats by feasting on the "center-less" Lakers in that decade. And yet, Chamberlain never had the opportunity to face them even ONCE! How dominant was Wilt against LA in the decade of the 60's? He faced them 86 times, and hung 42 40+ point games against them, including 19 of 50+, seven of 60+, and even two of 70+ (which included a 78-43 game.)

As for "pace"...hmmm, in Wilt's highest scoring Finals, he averaged 29 ppg on 24 FGA (and again, against RUSSELL.) How about Lebron's highest scoring Finals? 36 ppg on...33 FGA per game...and with single-coverage against a role player coming off the bench. Had Wilt taken 33 FGAs (and adjusted his already .517 FG% to '15 post-season levels...or .600), and he would have averaged 20 FGM...or 40 ppg, just on his FGAs. Then, can you imagine Boston single-covering a prime Wilt with a 35 year old Lovellette in his last season? Hell, a prime Chamberlain was pouring in 50+ ppg games against a prime Clyde.

And now, let's move a prime Lebron from his Eastern Conference, to the Western Conference in his career, shall we? Well, luckily for LeChoke, he would never have made the Finals in '07, nor '11, perhaps the two worst ever by a Top-10 player in his prime. Of course, he couldn't even get to the Finals in the weak ECF in '08 and '09, so he wouldn't have sniffed them in the West, either. That leaves '12, '13, '14, '15, and '16.

2012...a breeze to the Finals in the East. Didn't face one team in the ECF that would have beaten a WCF playoff team. Still, his team did beat the Thunder in the Finals...so I will give that to him.

2013. Who knows? One thing, though...his team wouldn't have gone 66-16 in the West. As it was, the East was a POS conference in which no team was close to the Heat. And yet they STILL struggled mightily against a Pacer team that would have been at the bottom of the West in the post-season. Then, they were a miraculous Allen shot away from losing to the Spurs in six games.

2014. Would never have come close to the Finals. The Spurs annihilated them in the Finals.

2015. Would never have sniffed the Finals, and were wiped out by the Warriors in the Finals.

2016. People forget that the Warriors were up 3-1, in a series in which 3" was a passive bystander. Then, a suspension to their best all-around player, an injury to their rim protector, and an injury to Iggy...the same role player who held Lebron to 39% shooting in the Finals. BTW, in their two regular season H2H's, a HEALTHY Iguodala held Lebron to 20.5 ppg on a .404 FG%.

Furthermore...the '16 Cavs had a cakewalk to the Finals. Put them in the WC, where they would have faced two of... either the Spurs, Warriors, or Thunder (the same Thunder team that dominated a much healthier Warrior team in the first four games of the WCF's, and were within a couple of minutes of beating them two more times)...and I seriously doubt that the Cavs would have made it thru that gauntlet to the Finals.

As for MVPs...interesting that Wilt "only' won four MVPs in the '60's, too. He was beaten out by Russell in '61 and '62...and yet was voted First Team All-NBA over Russell in those two seasons. BTW, compare Russell's team success, and Russell's stats ...with Wilt's team success, and Wilt's team success in BOTH '60 and '62...and explain to me how Russell won the MVP in '62, and not in '60, when a rookie Wilt ran away with it. The ONLY thing that changed from '60 to '62...was that Wilt was even far greater in his '62 season.

Russell also won the '65 MVP...BUT, in the EDF's, Chamberlain just CRUSHED him in EVERY facet of the game. Wilt took the same roster that had gone 34-46 the year before...to a game seven, one point loss, against a Celtic team that was it's peak (going 62-18.) In that series, Wilt outscored Russell, 30-16 ppg; outrebounded Russell, 31-25 rpp; outshot Russell from the field .555 to .440; outshot him from the line, .583 to .472; outshot him in TS%, .565 to .450; and even outblocked him in their known games, 35-22.

The reality was, Chamberlain was the best player in the league right from his first game (43-28-17 BTW)...and the MVP in his rookie season...thru the mid-60's when he ran away with the MVP three straight seasons, and even into Russell's last season (and Wilt's last season before he shredded his knee)...when Chamberlain dominated all three of the centers who finished ahead of him in the MVP balloting (Unseld, Reed, and Russell.)


Incidently, Wilt won a FMVP averaging 19 ppg, and would surely have won a FMVP in '67, had the award existed, in a Finals in which he averaged 18 ppg (and an opposing player played like Lebron in the '15 Finals... 41 ppg on a .408 FG%.)

Furthermore, put a prime Wilt in the Finals against the likes of a washed up Rik Smits in his last season; or a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was already to bloody to a pulp; or a never was in the 6-11 MaCulloch (who had a 4 year year career in which he averaged 6 ppg); or the complete bust in Erik Dampier....and well, needless to say that he would have put up staggering numbers.

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...


Continued...

For Ajackoff, and his comment that Wilt played in a "garbage Era"...

For the record, Chamberlain faced Lovellette, Cowens, Hayes, Unseld, Reed, Bellamy, McAdoo, Lanier, Thurmond, Russell, Gilmore (yep, and badly outplayed him in the 71-72 ABA-NBA ASG), and Kareem. ALL in the HOF. And keep in mind that Chamberlain played in leagues between eight to 17 teams. He was facing these guys on a nightly basis. And he either outplayed, or downright dominated them all (only a PEAK Kareem would have an argument...and again, in their two playoff series H2H's, a way-past-peak Wilt was considered the "winner.")

Ok, ...how about some quick comparisons between what a PRIME Chamberlain did against the SAME centers that a PEAK Kareem would face a few years later.

Willis Reed. A PRIME Chamberlain only faced a Reed, at center, in 12 games early in their career, and two more in the '68-69 season...and BATTERED him. Kareem's high game against Reed...41 points. Wilt AVERAGED 38.6 ppg against Reed in their 12 H2H's in the '65 season...which included beatdowns by margins of 46-25, 41-9, 52-23, and even 58-28. In their two H2H's in the '69 season (and before Wilt shredded his knee early on in the 69-70 season), Wilt outscored Reed by a 28 ppg to 20 ppg margin, outrebounded him by a 22.0 to 9.5 rpg margin, and outshot him from the field by a .688 to .459 margin. Incidently, I always get a kick out of those that use Reed's two Finals ('70 and '73) against Wilt (and even though Wilt still outplayed him in both). Those two series came AFTER Wilt's major knee surgery.

Connie Dierking. Dierking is interesting. A Chamberlain, at the beginning of his '69-70 season, and just before he blew out his knee, put up a 43 point game on Dierking. And just the season before, in a season in which Wilt averaged about 10 FGAs, he hung a 60 point game on Dierking. A peak Kareem faced Dierking over the span of several seasons...and his high game was 41 points. Now, how about a PRIME Chamberlain against Dierking? Many 40+ point games including a 63 point game, and another game in which he outscored Dierking by a 59-4 margin.

Jim Fox. This isn't really fair to Wilt. A PRIME Chamberlain never faced Fox. Now, a PEAK Kareem faced him on many occasions, and his high game...again... 41 points. Wilt faced Fox in his 68-69 season, and in one game, he hung a 66 point game on him (on 29-35 shooting.) Oh, and in the game in which Wilt shredded his knee in '69? He had scored 33 points, in 28 minutes, and on 13-14 shooting. He was well on his way to a 40+ point game, and perhaps his last 50 point game.

Darrell Imhoff. Kareem's high game against Imhoff? 46 points. How about Wilt's high game against Imhoff. Yep... 100 points (granted, not all of the scoring came against Imhoff.) Wilt had many huge games against Imhoff in his career, but how about Imhoff's favorite game against Wilt? After Chamberlain had hung the 100, the two met a couple of days later. Imhoff tells the story that he busted his ass the entire game. Fronted, backed, hacked, you name it. Played his heart out. And as he was leaving the floor in the last minute, he received a standing ovation (the only time in his career BTW.) Why? Because he had "held" Wilt to 58 points!

Thurmond. I have already covered this earlier...but a quick recap. A PEAK Kareem, in the 35 H2H's against a full-time Thurmond, had a TOTAL of FIVE 30+ point games against him, with a HIGH game of 34 points. In their first 13 H2H games, Chamberlain had SIX 30+ games against Nate, including games of 38 and 45.

Finally...Walt Bellamy. First of all, "Bells" was listed at 6-11, but Marty Blake measured him at 7-0 barefoot. Kareem battleda fading Bellamy in 25 H2H's. His high game against Bellamy... 40 points. His next highest... 39 points. His next highest... 35 points. Now, how about Wilt? In their very first H2H game, Bellamy came into the game averaging 30 ppg. Chamberlain proceeded to block his first NINE shots, and wound up outscoring Bellamy by a 53-14 margin. In their first 10 H2H games, all in the 61-62 season... Wilt AVERAGED 52.7 ppg against Bellamy. AVERAGED. In his next 10 H2H's, in the 62-63 season, Chamberlain AVERAGED 43.7 ppg. AVERAGED. So, in their first 20 straight games, Wilt AVERAGED 48.2 ppg. Which included THREE games of 60+, and a high game of 73 (with 36 rebounds BTW.) Chamberlain continued to pound Bellamy their entire career (for instance, in his '67 season, Wilt averaged 22.7 ppg on...get this... a .709 FG%, which included a 35 point game on 15-18 shooting.)


BTW, Chamberlain and rookie Kareem (Alcindor) met in ONE game, before Chamberlain's injury. In that game, Wilt outscored Kareem, 25-23; outrebounded him, 25-20; outassisted him, 5-2; outblocked him, 3-2 (which included TWO "unblockable" sky-hooks), and outshot him from the field by a 9-14 to 9-21 margin.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

I find it fascinating that there are those that claim KAJ was a greater player than Chamberlain. First of all, ESPN's night janitors just came out an ranked KAJ #2, with Wilt at #5. Interesting...evidently Kareem must have made a comeback in the last 17 years, because in ESPN's '99 rankings, Wilt was #2, Magic was #3, Russell was #4, and Kareem was #5.

And Wilt gets ripped for "losing" in his career, while Kareem is praised for his six rings. Yet, in Chamberlain's prime, while he "only" won one ring, he went to the Conference Finals eight times in those 10 seasons, and the Finals in three. He also played on the team with the best record in the league in that span three times. Oh, and when his team was losing, it was to the GOAT Dynasty...EIGHT times (and four of those were game seven's, and by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.) Hell, Chamberlain was single-handedly carrying POS rosters as far, or further, than a prime Baylor and West did together. On top of that, his team was the ONLY team in the decade of the 60's to beat the Celtics. (and it was an annihilation of the Celtics, all while Chamberlain was carpet-bombing Russell.)

How about a prime KAJ? In his prime 10 seasons... ONE ring, TWO Finals, Five Conference Finals, and the best record in the league TWICE. But it gets worse. The decade of the 70's were the weakest era for champions in the history of the NBA (all after Wilt retired BTW.) The '75 Warriors went 48-34, the '76 Celtics went 54-28, the '77 Blazers went 49-33, the '78 Bullets went 44-38, and the '79 Sonics went 52-30. Hell, there were teams going 42-40 and even 40-42 making the Finals.

KAJ's teams lost twice in a row to the Sonics, who went 47-35 and 52-30 in those two years. How about talent on those teams? Seattle had ONE borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson), and a few quality players. A prime Kareem had Jamaal Wilkes (who won a ring playing with a far less talented roster in '75 BTW), Lou Hudson, Norm Nixon, and they acquired Adrian Dantley, who was averaging 27 ppg when they got, in early '78. And with all that talent (and then Michael Cooper in '79)...records of 45-37 and 47-35...and blown out by the Sonics in both seasons.

In the decade of the 70's, KAJ lost three times in the first round, and in one of those, with HCA. In one of those, his 60-22 Bucks were wiped out by a 47-35 Warrior team, and in a series in which KAJ shot .428. The same Warrior team that a 60-22 Wilt-led Laker crushed in the very next round. Oh, and right in the middle of his prime, KAJ missed the playoffs... TWICE in a row.

The "clutch" Kareem? In the clinching game five loss of the '70 ECF's, he was outscored by Willis Reed, 32-27, in a 132-96 blowout loss. In the '71 WCF's he was statistically outplayed by a 34 year old Wilt, who was only a year removed from major knee surgery (and arguably the worst season of Chamberlain's career.) Hell, it was so bad for Kareem in that series, that when Wilt left the floor in the clinching game five loss, he received a standing ovation...and the game was played in MILWAUKEE!

In his greatest statistical season of his career, in '72, he had a first round series against Nate Thurmond, in which he was outscored and outshot by Nate (a player that a prime Chamberlain just murdered BTW)...by margins of 25.0 ppg and 22.8 ppg, and .437 to, get this... .405! BTW...you want a ppg drop? Kareem went from 34.8 ppg in the regular season...down to 22.8 ppg against Thurmond. Then, KAJ, despite heavily outscoring Wilt in the WCF's, was by ALL accounts, outplayed by Chamberlain. Time Magazine went so far as to claim that Wilt DECISIVELY outplayed Kareem. KAJ shot .457 in that series (after shooting .574 in the regular season), but as bad as that was, he only shot .414 in the last four pivotal games of the series, and watched helplessly as Chamberlain was knocking the "unblockable" skyhook all over the gym. In the last game of the series, Chamberlain took over in the 4th quarter, and engineered a double-digit comeback. He scored nine points in the period, held KAJ to 2-8 shooting, was was not only pounding a white-flag waving Kareem physically, but was OUTRUNNING him, as well.

BTW, in their two playoff series H2H's...in the clinching games of those two series, Wilt shot a combined .545 (18-33)...while a peak Kareem shot .383 (23-60.) The reality was, Wilt was a FAR greater "must win" performer than Kareem in their entire careers. In fact, Wilt's "must win" games are GOAT level. He averaged 31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and shot .540 in those games (in leagues that shot .435 in the post-season in the same span...or a full ten percentage points above the post-season league average.) Only Lebron's 32.6 ppg and MJ's 31.3 ppg top Wilt's 31.1 ppg in "must win" scoring.

Continued...

[Annyong!]

Wilt played the bulk of his playoff career after major knee surgery. Plus Wilt won his 2 rings over Kareem and Russell. That beats the hell out of MJs Karl malone/GaryPayton any day
Injury excuses don't make you #1. If we are just comparing Wilt's 2 rings to a few of Jordan's rings, then Wilt has a case, but you can't just disregard 4 extra rings.

[aj1987]

So much copy+paste excuse making for a choking mental midget. Choked away a ring in '69, but but but it was the coach!! :roll:

12 PPG on 48% TS.

In reality though:

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

Kareem played on a 60-22 team in '73. Same as Wilt's team record. However, in the first round, KAJ took his team down in flames against the 47-35 Warriors, 4-2, in a series in which he shot .428. BTW, Abdul-Jabbar was outrebounded by Warrior Forward Clyde Lee in that series. Chamberlain and his Lakers destroyed that same Warrior team in the next round, 4-1 (including a 126-70 beatdown in Oakland)...in a series in which Wilt outrebounded Thurmond by a 7 rpg margin, and outshot him by a .611 to .373 margin.

So, in their four years in the league together, Wilt's TEAM success (which is often used against him) was considerably greater than a peak Kareem's. Wilt led his teams to three Finals, while Kareem could only get there once. Not only that, but Wilt's '70 Lakers, who went 46-36, (in a season in which Chamberlain had major knee surgery)...lost to the Knicks in seven games, while KAJ's 56-26 Bucks were wiped out by Reed's Knicks in five games (and Reed just crushed KAJ in that deciding game, a 132-96 blowout.) H2H, Wilt and KAJ went 1-1 in their playoff series, but in the one in which Chamberlain's team lost, he was playing without BOTH Baylor and West. And again, he outplayed Kareem in that series.

Wilt retired after the '73 season, and KAJ finally had an opportunity to take over the NBA. Never happened. He did lead his '74 Bucks to the Finals, where, with HCA, they lost a game seven to the Celtics. And in that game seven, Dave Cowens easily outplayed Kareem (outscoring, outrebounding, and outshooting him), in a road romp win.

KAJ's Bucks went 38-44 in '74 and missed the playoffs (yes, KAJ broke his hand and missed 16 games....but even then... 35-31.) BTW, while KAJ would miss CHUNKS of TWO separate seasons with broken hands...Chamberlain dominated in a Finals clinching win with a fractured wrist (24-29-8 on .714 shooting.)

KAJ was traded to the Lakers after the '74 season, and the result? A 40-42 team that missed the playoffs (incldently, KAJ's former team went the same 38-44 without him.)

I will never blame Kareem for his sweeping loss in the '77 WCF's. It was perhaps his greatest playoff series of his career, with a 30-14 .608 series, and against Walton, who needed his swarming teammates to contain Kareem. BUT, keep in mind that Chamberlain was hanging playoff series of 22-25-7; 22-32-10; 28-30; 29-28; 30-31; 31-27; and 34-27 on RUSSELL in their eight post-season H2H's, and he was a total of nine points away from holding a 5-3 team record over Russell in those eight series (losing four game seven's by margins of 2, 1, 4 and 2 points.)

I mentioned it already, but a lethargic Kareem, and with a FAR more talented roster...watched as his '78 and '79 Lakers were blown-out by the Sonics in '78 an '79.

THAT was a PRIME Kareem's resume.

How did a slowly declining Kareem win five more rings? Well, it was MAGIC.

How much impact did MAGIC provide? How about his rookie season? He took a team that had gone 47-35 the year before, and were badly beaten, 4-1, by the Sonics in the second round... to a 60-22 record, and 4-1 whipping of that same 56-26 Sonics team in the WCF's. Then, in the Finals, ...and with Kareem sitting on his couch nursing a mild ankle sprain... Magic put up an historic 42-15-7 Finals clinching performance.

In '81, Magic missed almost all of the last half of the season, and played poorly in the first round. Still, KAJ was just pounded by Moses Malone, and the heavily favored Lakers were stunned by the 40-42 Rockets.

It was MAGIC who carried the '82 Lakers in both the playoffs and Finals, and it was MAGIC winning his second FMVP.

In the '83 Finals, Moses just BURIED a helpless Kareem, and the result...a 4-0 sweeping loss. Interesting too that the "Kareem-Killer" went 6-1 in their playoff H2H games.

'In the '84 Finals, KAJ shot .481 from the field, and the Lakers were beaten in seven games.

Kareem did have a great Finals in '85, and after a poor first game, took over the series, en route to a title and a FMVP. Still, it was Magic who led that playoff team to 126 ppg.

In '86, a Kareem who had just castrated Hakeem in the regular season, was now defended by Sampson, and his numbers dropped off the cliff from his regular season dominance over that team...in a stunning loss.

After the '86 debacle, Riley put the scoring offense into MAGIC's hands, and he overwhelmed Boston in the Finals. He led the Lakers in virtually every offensive category, and nearly led BOTH team in nearly every category, in a Lakers 4-2 series win (with three of the four wins blow-outs.)

'In 88, Kareem was now the FIFTH best player on the Lakers, and as bad as that was, he was just AWFUL in the playoffs, HORRIFIC in the Finals (13-4 on a .414 FG%), and then put up the worst game seven by a GOAT in NBA history (4-3, on 2-7 shooting in his 29 minutes)...and yet because of MAGIC...he STILL won a ring.

Magic was injured in the second game of the Finals in '89, and the results...a 4-0 sweeping loss to the Pistons. Kareem retired after that season.

Without MAGIC, Kareem would have likely retired with only ONE ring (and perhaps only TWO Finals.)

And while Wilt's teams were losing Russell's seven times, and Reed's twice, and Kareem's once...KAJ's were losing to Reed, Thurmond, Wilt, Cowens, Bill Walton, Marvin Webster, and Jack Sikma, And that was all before MAGIC arrived.

Had Wilt played with a PRIME Magic for TEN seasons, he most assuredly would have won FAR more than the two rings that he did.

[Mr Feeny]

Just came here to say that there is only one "real" finals - the actual finals.

In the actual finals, Wilt is an 18 ppg scorer and a 37%FT shooter.

[LAZERUSS]

Just came here to say that there is only one "real" finals - the actual finals.

In the actual finals, Wilt is an 18 ppg scorer and a 37%FT shooter.

And he won an FMVP in one Finals in which he averaged 19 ppg (to go along with 23 rpg and on a .600 FG%), and would have won a unanimous FMVP in another, had the award existed, in a series in which he averaged 18 ppg. BTW, an opposing player put up a 41 ppg Finals...on a Lebron-like .408 FG% in that same series.

He also had a 29 ppg, 28 rpg, .517 FG% Finals against RUSSELL (which included games of 35-25 and 27-38)...all while holding Russell to 10-25 .386.

As well as the only 20-20 .600 FG% Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%), which included must win games of 45-27 on 20-27 shooting, and 21-24 on 10-16.

[LAZERUSS]

Injury excuses don't make you #1. If we are just comparing Wilt's 2 rings to a few of Jordan's rings, then Wilt has a case, but you can't just disregard 4 extra rings.

Wilt's teams lost to the GOAT Dynasty SEVEN times, which included four game seven's by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points (and his team routed the eight-time defending, and 60-21 Celtics, in another.) His teams also lost to the 66-16 Bucks (in a series in which his two best teammates, Baylor and West missed with injuries); the 60-22 Knicks with their four HOFers; and the 56-26 Knicks and their SIX HOFers.

How did MJ do against Bird's Celtics, and the Bad Boys in his playoff career?

BTW, MJ won six rings...with rosters that went an injury-riddled 55-27 without him (and were a blown call away from getting to the ECF's.) Hell, he came back to essentially the same roster the very next season...and STILL couldn't get past the second round. They had to add yet ANOTHER HOFer, in Rodman, to win their last three rings.

[LAZERUSS]

The "declining" Wilt...


I always find it amusing that Wilt gets ripped for his "decline", which of course is NEVER taken in CONTEXT.

MJ faced the Bad Boys four straight seasons. And he didn't finally get a win until the Pistons were just a shell in that fourth season. BUT, not only that, his numbers DECLINED CONSIDERABLY from his regular season numbers when he faced them. How come?

Same with a PEAK Shaq. When he faced the Robinson-led Spurs from '99-'02...numbers DECLINED CONSIDERABLY. BTW, there is mis-conception that the Spurs were swarming Shaq with Robinson and Duncan. The reality was, Popovich loaded up his rosters with CENTERS, most all of whom basically defended Shaq one-on-one. And Duncan RARELY defended Shaq. Hell, the 6-7 Malik Rose was defending him quite often.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/nba/02playoffs/bonus-shaq.htm

Malik fuc...g Rose!!!


And then there was a PEAK Kareem. From 71-73, he averaged 33 ppg on a .563 FG% against the NBA. In his five playoff series against Wilt and Thurmond? A combined 26 ppg on a ... get this... .456 FG%.

Wilt faced RUSSELL...the GOAT defensive center...and his SWARMING teammates (yes, even his teammates would tell you that)...in EIGHT post-season series. And all but one in either his first or second round.

The reality was, Chamberlain seldom had the luxury of facing stiffs like Ostertag, or Dampier, or a washed up Smits, or a never-was like MacCulloch. Chamberlain was routinely facing the likes of Bellamy, Reed, Thurmond, Russell, and KAJ. On top of that, Wilt was asked to change his game in the mid-60's, and his scoring dropped. In his "scoring" prime, he averaged 33 ppg in the playoffs, and in his 52 playoff games in that span...he faced Russell in 30 of them.

Furthermore, Chamberlain played 62 of his post-season games post-surgery. And he STILL was the most dominant player on the floor in the majority of those.



Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...


Continuing...

Gotta love the Ajackoffs of this site. CONTEXT. He has no clue what that means.

Scoring? How about post-season runs of 28, 29, 33, 35, 35, and 37 ppg? How about post-season series of 37, 37, 39, and 39 ppg? How about post-season series of 28-30, 29-28, 30-31, 31-27, and 34-27 against RUSSELL? How about 13 playoff games of 40+...11 of which came in his 52 playoff games in his "scoring" seasons (21% for those keeping track.) How about MUST WIN games of 45-27 (Finals BTW), 46-34 (against RUSSELL BTW), 50-22, 50-35 (against RUSSELL BTW), and even a 56-35-12 game? As well as another 50 point game in the '64 WDF's. Or series clinching games of 30-32, 30-26, 38-26, and 39-26-10?

How about his MUST WIN playoff games? In his 23 must win playoff games...

31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-seasons that shot .435 in the same span.)

How about his 37 MUST WIN, and SERIES CLINCHING playoff games?

29.5 ppg, 26.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, and on a .546 FG% (again, in post-seasons that shot .435 in that span...or nearly TWELVE percentage points above the league average.)


Rebounding? Simply...the GOAT post-season rebounder in NBA history. Yes, Russell had a slightly higher average... 24.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg...BUT, in their eight playoff series H2H's, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in EVERY one of them. Including margins of 5, 6, and even 9 rpg! Oh, Chamberlain is also the all-time FINALS leading rebounder with a career average of 24.6 rpg.

He played in 13 post-seasons, and his LOW was 20.2 rpg. He also had post-seasons of 28, 29, and even 30 rpg. And he had series of 30 and 31 rpg (both against RUSSELL BTW.) In his LAST post-season, at age 36, and covering 17 games... 22.5 rpg, in a post-season that averaged 50.6 rpg per team (just this last season the NBA averaged 42.0 rpg.) That translates to 19 rpg in the '16 playoffs. In his LAST season.

He played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of them. He was outrebounded by PF Jerry Lucas in ONE...and by a 21.0 to 20.0 rpg margin/ However, when the two faced each other as CENTERS, a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg, outrebounded the 31 year old Lacas, playing 46 mpg, by a 23.2 rpg to 9.8 rpg margin.

Wilt was outrebounding Reed by 14 rpg, Thurmond by 7 rpg, and Russell by 9 rpg.


Playoff RECORDS? Surely this "declining" Wilt would not have any post-season records, right? How about, and by far, the most 20-20 games, the most 30-20 games, the most 20-30 games, the most 30-30 games, the most 40-20 games, the most 40-30 games, the most 50-20 games, and the most 50-30 games? How about the most post-seasons of 20-20, 30-20, 30-25, 35-20?


Blocked shots? Tim Duncan just retired with the "official" post-season blocked shot record of 568 in his 251 playoff games. Well nbastats.net contributor, Julizaver found blocked shot data for 81 of Wilt's 160 post-season games...or roughly half (and almost all of it from the mid-60's on)...and... 590 blocked shots...in 81 games! Hell, an old Wilt blocked 33 shots in his '72 WCF's in the four known games of that series, and 15 of those were on KAJ!

Defense? Wilt held Russell to playoff series FG%'s of .399, .397, .386, and .358 (in a season in which Russell shot .454 against the NBA.) He held Thurmond to playoff series of .392, .373, and .343 (a PEAK Nate BTW...and in a season in which Thurmond shot .437 against the NBA.) He held Bellamy to .450 in a season in which Bellamy shot .521 against the NBA, and then to .421 in a season in which Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA. Oh, can't forget Kareem, either. KAJ shot .577 and .574 against the NBA in '71 and '72. Against Wilt in those two post-seasons? .481 and .457 (including .414 in the last four games of that series.)

How about Wilt's FG% in his six Finals? .559...all while holding his opposing centers (all in the HOF BTW)...to a combined .439. Or how about his two game seven's of the Finals? He outshot Reed and Russell by a combined .708 to .333 margin (all while averaging 19.5 ppg and 25.5 rpg.)


Passing? Find me a CENTER who averaged 9.0 apg in an entire playoff run (which, BTW, led the post-season that year.) Or a center who had two straight triple-double series (28-27-11, and 22-32-10)?


Of course, had a PRIME Wilt faced the likes of a washed Smits, or a 35 year old Mutombo (whom Shaq was allowed to beat to a bloody pulp in some of the most disgraceful offciating in Finals history), or a never-was in the career 6 ppg scoring MacCulloch, or the complete bust in Eric Dampier... in his Finals...no doubt he would have been putting up 30-40-and 50 point playoff games against them.


So, next time someone claims that Wilt was NOT a Top-5 playoff performer...well, they would be wrong.

[Annyong!]

Wilt's teams lost to the GOAT Dynasty SEVEN times, which included four game seven's by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points (and his team routed the eight-time defending, and 60-21 Celtics, in another.) His teams also lost to the 66-16 Bucks (in a series in which his two best teammates, Baylor and West missed with injuries); the 60-22 Knicks with their four HOFers; and the 56-26 Knicks and their SIX HOFers.

How did MJ do against Bird's Celtics, and the Bad Boys in his playoff career?

BTW, MJ won six rings...with rosters that went an injury-riddled 55-27 without him (and were a blown call away from getting to the ECF's.) Hell, he came back to essentially the same roster the very next season...and STILL couldn't get past the second round. They had to add yet ANOTHER HOFer, in Rodman, to win their last three rings.

You act like Wilt's teams weren't also stacked. Maybe Wilt would have won more if he didn't shrink in the big moments. He also got to the Finals in a tiny league. You indicate that he only lost because he faced a dynasty, but the Bulls in the 90s were the dynasty. The excuses are only needed for the teams that lost.

[LAZERUSS]

You act like Wilt's teams weren't also stacked. Maybe Wilt would have won more if he didn't shrink in the big moments. He also got to the Finals in a tiny league. You indicate that he only lost because he faced a dynasty, but the Bulls in the 90s were the dynasty. The excuses are only needed for the teams that lost.

Please provide me with those "shrinking moments."

Wilt's teams stacked? Aside from his '69 Finals, which featured a washed up Baylor at his all-time worst, and an incompetent coach, who shackled him...he was basically outgunned in HOF teammates in nearly everyone of his post-season losses...and usually with his "HOF" teammates puking all over the floor.

And BTW, how come MJ's teams lost to the dynastic Celtics and the min-dynastic Pistons? And again...MJ's "dynasty" came in a watered-down NBA, and with surrounding rosters that could go 55-27 and challenge for an NBA title without him.

[Annyong!]

Please provide me with those "shrinking moments."

Wilt's teams stacked? Aside from his '69 Finals, which featured a washed up Baylor at his all-time worst, and an incompetent coach, who shackled him...he was basically outgunned in HOF teammates in nearly everyone of his post-season losses...and usually with his "HOF" teammates puking all over the floor.

And BTW, how come MJ's teams lost to the dynastic Celtics and the min-dynastic Pistons? And again...MJ's "dynasty" came in a watered-down NBA, and with surrounding rosters that could go 55-27 and challenge for an NBA title without him.
Dude averaged 18.8ppg over the course of 6 Finals despite a 30ppg average for his career. That is a significant drop. He only had 30ppg once in the Finals, and twice averaged under 12ppg in Finals losses. If that isn't significantly shrinking on the big stage, I don't know what is.

[Big164]

There is no player who beat Russell's Celtics more than Wilt did. None. Wilt owns the most wins over that Dynasty playoff or otherwise.

[LAZERUSS]

Dude averaged 18.8ppg over the course of 6 Finals despite a 30ppg average for his career. That is a significant drop. He only had 30ppg once in the Finals, and twice averaged under 12ppg in Finals losses. If that isn't significantly shrinking on the big stage, I don't know what is.

Oh, so Wilt had a 12 ppg drop in his Finals from his regular season?

So, you are claiming that Chamberlain played in the Finals in EVERY season of his career?

Gotta love it.

CONTEXT my friend, CONTEXT.

REALITY... Wilt averaged 19 ppg in his six Finals (rounding up instead of the incorrect down)...in the same seasons that he averaged ...not 30 ppg...but 23 ppg. And only ONE of his Finals came in his "scoring" seasons...and in a series in which he could "only" average 29.2 ppg, with 27.8 rpg, and on a .517 FG%, in a Finals in which both teams combined to shoot .404 from the field.

BTW, when complete idiots claim that Wilt didn't "win" in his "scoring seasons...how about this. He took a roster, that had been in last place the year before he arrived... to a 49-26 record in his rookie season. He annihilated the Nats in the playoffs with a 39-23 series, including a series clincher of 50-22. Then, he led his team to a game six, two point loss against the 59-16 Celtics that featured SEVEN HOFers. He then took essentially that same last place roster, now only older and worse, to a 49-31 record in his historic 50 ppg season. In the post-season, he averaged 37-23 against the Nats, which included a must win series clinching game of 56-35-12. Then, in the EDF's, and against the HOF-laden and 60-20 Celtics, he led his team to a game seven, two point loss, in a series in which he averaged 34-27. In his '64 season, he led basically the same roster that had gone 31-49 the year before, to a 48-32 record. In the WDF's all he could do was hang a 39-23 .559 seven game series on the Hawks. In the Finals, and with rookie Thurmond, who was playing part-time and shooting .326, and "HOFer" Guy Rodgers, who shot .258 in that Finals...he led them to a 4-1 series loss against the 57-22 Celtics and their NINE HOFers...with the last two losses in the waning second, and with a 29-28 .517 Finals. In the '65 EDF's, he took a 40-40 team, that had gone 34-46 the year before without him, past the stacked Royals, 3-1, and then to a game seven, one point loss against a peak 62-18 Celtics team...and in a series in which Chamberlain averaged 30-32 .555 (.560 TS%.)

More REALITY. He WON a FMVP in a Finals in which he "only" averaged 19.2 ppg... to go along with 23.2 rpg, 7.4 bpg, and on a .600 FG%. In the clinching game, and playing with one wrist sprained, and the other FRACTURED, he scored 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds (the entire Knick team had 39 BTW), and with 8 blocks.

And, he would have won a unanimous FMVP in '67, had the award existed, in a Finals in which he averaged 17.5 ppg, 28.5 rpg, 6.8 apg, likely 7 bpg (games iwith a documented 10 blocks, and other in which his coach had him with 15 blocks.) In the clincher, he put up a 24-23-5 game on 8-13 from the field, all while holding a peak Thurmond to 12-22 on 4-13 shooting. Oh, BTW, Rick Barry averaged 40.8 ppg on a .408 FG% in that Finals. Compare that with Lebron averaging 35.8 ppg on a .398 FG%, in a Finals in which a role player off the bench won the FMVP.


More REALITY. The REAL Finals in the decade of the 60's were...the Celtics...vs... WILT. Unfortunately for Wilt, all but two were in the EDF's. In post-seasons in which he carried his team further than West-and-Baylor combined, could against the Celtics. Oh, and he also BEAT the Celtics in the 60's...something a prime Baylor and West could not.

In any case, here were Wilt's numbers in his six EDF's against Russell in the decade of the 60's... 22-25-7; 22-32-10 (and a blowout series win); 28-30; 30-31 (on a .555 FG% and .560 TS% BTW); 31-27; and 34-27. Add in his '64 Finals against them of 29-28, and THAT should give you a better illustration of what Chamberlain was achieving in his post-seasons.

Not to mention non-Russell post-season series of 37-23, 37-23, 39-23, and 39-23.


Had a PRIME Chamberlain faced the likes of a washed up Smits, in his last season; or a never was, 6 ppg career scoring, MacCulloch; or a complete bust Dampier; in his Finals...what do you think his Finals' stats would have looked like? Not to mention bums like Greg Ostertag (BTW, Shaq's career post-season W-L record against Ostertag... 1-8.)

CONTEXT, my friend. CONTEXT.

[LAZERUSS]

Agree with this. It's a pretty embarassing drop.
Averaging less than 12 ppg in finals is something I didn't know.

I never realised he was THAT awful in finals.
Thank you for that.

Well, I always KNEW you were an idiot.

Of course, we all know you were no Lebron fan..UNTIL, he came back in the last three games of the '16 Finals (thanks to a suspension to Green, injuries to Bogut and especially to the Lebron-stopper Iggy, and the pure choking by your boy Chokurry)...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12426030&posted=1#post12426030


And you gotta love this one...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12569835&postcount=91




http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...7&postcount=29


I want y'al hating mother fos to come back in 3 days.

Talk smack now and enjoy this

Let's see if Curry turns things around and I GUARANTEE he does, upon which he surpasses Kobrick all time and knocks him to 13th.

All he has to do is surpass Kobe's career finals numbers of 25 ppg on 41%. He does that and he's gold.
Next year he'll go for the jugular and start aiming for a 3 peat and MJ finals numbers.

Mark my words branvestites and kobrick lovers. Curry will have both of you crying in tears the entire summer by the time he wraps this up in a week

This idiot not only loses a bet by backing a player that put up the worst Finals in NBA history, but he even warned the TRUE Lebron fans that it was coming, too.

Funny how a Kyrie shot SUDDENLY switched his allegiance, isn't it?

And back to this...


So, here's the real bet...

Since YOU are claiming that Curry is "He's just a better player", here is what NIC MUST do in this FINALS. ALL of the following:

He has to exceed Kobe's highest scoring Finals... 32.4 ppg.
He has to exceed Kobe's most efficient Finals... .623 TS%
He has to exceed Kobe's highest scoring Finals game... 40 points.

And, sorry, we are going to include Chokurry's first game of this of this Finals, as well. After all, two of the above criteria are based on a SERIES.

I will be waiting...but only up until game time tomorrow night


Whatever
Let's make the bet


Just to confirm...

Starting with the already played game one...

If Curry exceeds Kobe in these three areas in this Finals...

32.4 ppg
.623 TS%
40 point high game

Then, I will admit Curry is greater than Kobe, and leave this forum forever.

If, however, he fails on ANY of those, you will admit that Kobe was indeed the greater player, and you will leave this forum forever.

If we are agreeing on that...

Accepted, and book-marked.

"Fence-Jumpin Feeble"

:roll: :roll:

[Mr Feeny]

I'm sure the poster above either doesn't know or is too thick to realize that I've openly admitted Lebron is GOAT.

It's lebron, Jordan and then kareem for me.

I seem to be in his head.

[Mr Feeny]

Dude averaged 18.8ppg over the course of 6 Finals despite a 30ppg average for his career. That is a significant drop. He only had 30ppg once in the Finals, and twice averaged under 12ppg in Finals losses. If that isn't significantly shrinking on the big stage, I don't know what is.

Agree with this. It's a pretty embarassing drop.
Averaging less than 12 ppg in finals is something I didn't know.

I never realised he was THAT awful in finals.
Thank you for that. Yikes!

[LAZERUSS]

I'm sure the poster above either doesn't know or is too thick to realize that I've openly admitted Lebron is GOAT.

It's lebron, Jordan and then kareem for me.

I seem to be in his head.

I hope you realize that you lost a bet, in which the loser was supposed to never again post on ISH.

And no, you are not in my head. I am in YOUR's.

Again...how about YOU calling ME out?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12426030&posted=1#post12426030


Now take your Chokurry-loving ass to some other forum where you can start fresh and pretend that you were a 3" LeChoke fan along.

[Mr Feeny]

I hope you realize that you lost a bet, in which the loser was supposed to never again post on ISH.

And no, you are not in my head. I am in YOUR's.

Now take your Chokurry-loving ass to some other forum where you can start fresh and pretend that you were a 3" LeChoke fan along.

Lebron 3" ? What are you 12?:oldlol: I most certainly am in your head and that's why I have you shook.

Stay mad that Lebron is considered a better all time player than your two idols :D

[Annyong!]

First, "(rounding up instead of the incorrect down)" is an odd thing to state since I did not do any "incorrect" rounding. Not sure what your point of including that was. The 18.8 I mentioned wasn't even rounded, so are you bothered by me rounding 30.1 scoring average to 30? If so, you are just weird dude.

Second, no matter how you spin it, Wilt had significant drop offs in the Finals on average even compared to his corresponding seasons, even if it wasn't exactly 30 in those given years.

And here is an additional kicker. We are crediting Wilt for even making it to the Finals as much as he did, but as much as people rag on LeBron for having an "easy path to the Finals," the path Wilt took was even easier. There were so few teams, and the deck was stacked between Wilt's teams and the Celtics. Heck, in 1964 the Finals for Wilt was only the 2nd round. So we prop him up for making it to the Finals, but the Finals just meant he won 1 series that year (which took him 7 games).

[Mr Feeny]

First, "(rounding up instead of the incorrect down)" is an odd thing to state since I did not do any "incorrect" rounding. Not sure what your point of including that was. The 18.8 I mentioned wasn't even rounded, so are you bothered by me rounding 30.1 scoring average to 30? If so, you are just weird dude.

Second, no matter how you spin it, Wilt had significant drop offs in the Finals on average even compared to his corresponding seasons, even if it wasn't exactly 30 in those given years.

And here is an additional kicker. We are crediting Wilt for even making it to the Finals as much as he did, but as much as people rag on LeBron for having an "easy path to the Finals," the path Wilt took was even easier. There were so few teams, and the deck was stacked between Wilt's teams and the Celtics. Heck, in 1964 the Finals for Wilt was only the 2nd round. So we prop him up for making it to the Finals, but the Finals just meant he won 1 series that year (which took him 7 games).

He's crying because lebron is considered several tiers above his idol on the all time list. It's as simple as that:lol

[aj1987]

Lebron 3" ? What are you 12?:oldlol: I most certainly am in your head and that's why I have you shook.

Stay mad that Lebron is considered a better all time player than your two idols :D
LeBron 3" and Feeble. Not too bright, that one. Just a sad meltdown because LeBron's top 5 and his mental midget boyfriend in barely top 15.

[Mr Feeny]

LeBron 3" and Feeble. Not too bright, that one. Just a sad meltdown because LeBron's top 5 and his mental midget boyfriend in barely top 15.Yeah I read something about him calling you AJackass in some thread. It's like dealing with an 11 year old:oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

First, "(rounding up instead of the incorrect down)" is an odd thing to state since I did not do any "incorrect" rounding. Not sure what your point of including that was. The 18.8 I mentioned wasn't even rounded, so are you bothered by me rounding 30.1 scoring average to 30? If so, you are just weird dude.

Second, no matter how you spin it, Wilt had significant drop offs in the Finals on average even compared to his corresponding seasons, even if it wasn't exactly 30 in those given years.

And here is an additional kicker. We are crediting Wilt for even making it to the Finals as much as he did, but as much as people rag on LeBron for having an "easy path to the Finals," the path Wilt took was even easier. There were so few teams, and the deck was stacked between Wilt's teams and the Celtics. Heck, in 1964 the Finals for Wilt was only the 2nd round. So we prop him up for making it to the Finals, but the Finals just meant he won 1 series that year (which took him 7 games).

A PRIME Wilt had to go thru the GOAT Dynasty in the the Eastern Conference in SEVEN of his ten seasons in the decade of the 60's (which includes '61 in which he averaged 37-23 and his teammates collectively shot .332 from the field in a first round loss to the Nats.)

SEVEN of TEN. And, excluding his 10th season in that decade, he played in excatly ONE post-season series against a Western Conference foe...and all he did was average 39-23 .559 FG% (in a post-season that shot .420.)

Even more interesting...Bill Russell basically built his post-season stats against the Lakers in the decade of the 60's (series of 18-25- .702; 20-27; 22-29, and 24-25), and yet Wilt never had the opportunity to face the Lakers even ONCE in that decade.

Think about this...Chamberlain faced the Lakers in 86 regular season H2H's in the decade of the 60's...and had a total of 42 (yes 42) 40+ point games, which included 19 of 50+, seven of 60+, and even two of 70+. How about this...in game seven of the '62 Finals, Russell put up a huge 30-40 game against the Lakers. In the same regular season, Wilt had ... get this... a 78-43 game against the Lakers.


As for Lebron. He has played in the weak POS East his entire career. He not only was guaranteed to make the Finals, he could build his stats up against mediocre teams along the way.

But let's do this. How about his 2007 and 2011 Finals? A HUGE drop in scoring (from 27 ppg in both seasons...to 22 and even 17...I can round down too...as well as shooting .356 against the Spurs.) Well, we both know that he wouldn't have even made the Finals in the West that year (maybe not even past the first round.)

'12. Easy path to the Finals, where they did beat the Thunder.

'13. They played 2/3 of their games in the East, which including the Cavs, had TWO teams with 50+ wins, and SEVEN with 40+. The West had FIVE teams with 50+ wins, and TEN with 40+. Oh, and the three worst teams, and by a considerable margin...all in the EAST. No way in hell do the Cavs go 66-16 in '13. And since they were a Ray Allen shot away from losing to the Spurs, 4-2, in the Finals....if they had to go thru the gauntlet in the WEST...probably not even into the Finals.

'14. Blown out by the Spurs in the Finals, in the most one-sided Finals in NBA history. They would never have reached the Finals in that season.

'15. Frolicked to the Finals, where they were beaten 4-2 by the Warriors. No way do they get past the WCF's in '15.

'16 is interesting. Given that they were down 3-1 to the Warriors, and then were saved by a suspension to Green in game five (as well as key injuries to Bogut and the Lebron-stopped Iggy)...and that the Thunder were ahead of GS 3-1, and thoroughly outplayed them (and Green's committed a far greater act that did not get a suspension)...and that the 67-15 Spurs were also in the West. I doubt that they make it to the Finals here, either. They would have had to go thru two of those three teams just to get to the Finals.

You could make a strong case that Lebron would only have gone to 2-3 Finals had he been lodged in the West in his career.

[Annyong!]

A PRIME Wilt had to go thru the GOAT Dynasty in the the Eastern Conference in SEVEN of his ten seasons in the decade of the 60's (which includes '61 in which he averaged 37-23 and his teammates collectively shot .332 from the field in a first round loss to the Nats.)

SEVEN of TEN.

Wilt only played in the East 8 seasons due to the Warriors being in San Francisco for a short time and going against Western teams. It is also worth noting that in the 60s, PRIME Wilt missed the playoffs 1 year, and another season PRIME Wilt was swept in the 1st round (not by the Celtics). But you are right, he met the Celtics many times while in the same conference and lost a lot, so what did he do? He ran to the West to get easy trips to the Finals, thus inflating his Finals trips. Again, people give LeBron crap for running. Wilt did the same thing. It is weird to me that you brag about how many times he lost to the Celtics, because that is essentially what you are doing. Getting beat year after year by the only other relevant team does not give him credibility as better than Jordan. Your argument would be much better suited for why Bill Russell is so great rather than why Wilt is so great.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt only played in the East 8 seasons due to the Warriors being in San Francisco for a short time and going against Western teams. It is also worth noting that in the 60s, PRIME Wilt missed the playoffs 1 year, and another season PRIME Wilt was swept in the 1st round (not by the Celtics). But you are right, he met the Celtics many times while in the same conference and lost a lot, so what did he do? He ran to the West to get easy trips to the Finals, thus inflating his Finals trips. Again, people give LeBron crap for running. Wilt did the same thing. It is weird to me that you brag about how many times he lost to the Celtics, because that is essentially what you are doing. Getting beat year after year by the only other relevant team does not give him credibility as better than Jordan. Your argument would be much better suited for why Bill Russell is so great rather than why Wilt is so great.

There is so much wrong with this...

"Wilt ran to the West to get easy trips to the Finals?"

Sure helped did it? Guess which conference was tougher from '69 thru '73? Look it up...considerably more 50 and 60 win teams in the WEST. And he STILL went to THREE Finals.

"Your argument would be much better suited for why Bill Russell is so great rather than why Wilt is so great."

I can answer this one pretty easily...

John Wooden in his book, They Call Me Coach, claimed that had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters in their ten years together, that it would have been WILT holding all those rings.

The reality was, Russell was not only playing alongside considerably more HOFers (both legit and illegit...), but did so for many more seasons. And even then, Wilt's TEAMS lost Game SEVEN's, FOUR times against his teams, and by razor-thin margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. All in series in which Wilt either outplayed, or downright carpet-bombed Russell.

[feyki]

I wonder when will this Hollinger hype be over .

[Mr Feeny]

Did nobody notice that op made up a complete lie?:oldlol:

Wilt is definitely not top 1, top 2 or anywhere near that.

For their careers, MJ is number 1 and lebron is closely behind at number 2.
In the playoffs, they're 1 and 3 respectively and Wilt is not even in the top 20.

As a side note, Kobe is only 23rd all time and will keep on dropping as other players surpass him.

[Big164]

Wilt is the only man to win a Ring on BOTH Kareem and Bill Russelll...
THat alone sh*ts on every title run MJ was ever apart of..

Jeff Hornacek
John Stockton,
John Starks
Danny Ainge( of the Phoenix suns)
Dan Marjle(MIami)


These were the "men" guarding mj:facepalm

[Mr Feeny]

How much did average during those 2 rings? What was his Finals ppg?
I'm not expecting a reply.....

[SouBeachTalents]

How much did average during those 2 rings? What was his Finals ppg?
I'm not expecting a reply.....

Wilt averaged 18.5/26/5 on 58% during those two Finals

[Mr Feeny]

Wilt averaged 18.5/26/5 on 58% during those two Finals

18 ppg you say?
Hardly better than "all of Jordan's rings"

[Big164]

Wilt averaged 18.5/26/5 on 58% during those two Finals
Its insane how Wilt maintained such a high rebounding average well into the 1970's, Not even Peak Kareem could touch those numbers playing against the same competition.

[Mr Feeny]

Its insane how Wilt maintained such a high rebounding average well into the 1970's, Not even Peak Kareem could touch those numbers playing against the same competition.

It's insane how much his scoring plummeted when the stakes were high :lebronamazed:

Meanwhile lebron is a 27 ppg finals scorer along with 7 apg:applause:

[ralph_i_el]

Wilt played the bulk of his playoff career after major knee surgery. Plus Wilt won his 2 rings over Kareem and Russell. That beats the hell out of MJs Karl malone/GaryPayton any day

:confusedshrug: playoffs are what really matters. He wasn't nearly as good when it counted.

[Big164]

18 ppg you say?
Hardly better than "all of Jordan's rings"
MJ never faced a single dominant team or Peak level GOAT in any of his 6 title runs.

There are no Kareem's or Bill Russells, in Mike's storyline....just john starks, danny ainge and Jeff Hornaceks

[Big164]

It's insane how much his scoring plummeted when the stakes were high :lebronamazed:

Meanwhile lebron is a 27 ppg finals scorer along with 7 apg:applause:
This is about WIlt and MJ, guys who actually hold NBA records...

The only real record Lebron has so far is most Turnovers in the NBA Finals.

[aj1987]

This is about WIlt and MJ, guys who actually hold NBA records...

The only real record Lebron has so far is most Turnovers in the NBA Finals.
People find it laughable when LeBron and Wilt comparisons are brought up (outside a dozen people in the world, no one ranks Wilt higher than LeBron), and you want to compare the mental midget to MJ? :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

People find it laughable when LeBron and Wilt comparisons are brought up (outside a dozen people in the world, no one ranks Wilt higher than LeBron), and you want to compare the mental midget to MJ? :roll:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

ESPN's "panel of experts." Please give us the names of those "experts."

And keep in mind, that those "panel of experts" ranked Kareem second. Which was interesting, since the last time their "experts" put up a ranking, in 1999 (ESPN's Sports Century), they ranked KAJ...FIFTH, and behind, Russell (4th), Magic (third), Wilt (second), and MJ at #1.

There was very little chance that this year's "panel of experts" ever saw Wilt, nor Russell, nor a prime Kareem, play. And please don't suggest that they watched footage of Wilt and Russell, either. For example, there is only 2% of Wilt's NBA career on video. Not only that, but aside from highlights of Wilt's '62 ASG (42 points, on 17-23 shooting, with 24 rebounds), there is not ONE full game, nor partial game...of any of Wilt's 271 40+ point games. Hell, there isn't any full, or even halves, of his 30+ point games.

Sorry, but Chamberlain will be remember long after both you and I are gone, while LeFlop will be best known for his flopping.

[LAZERUSS]

People find it laughable when LeBron and Wilt comparisons are brought up (outside a dozen people in the world, no one ranks Wilt higher than LeBron), and you want to compare the mental midget to MJ? :roll:

LeChoke "clutch?"

Interesting,... just a year ago, and after losing game six in the Finals...ESPN ran this article...

http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/p...espnapi_public

[QUOTE]Thursday

[aj1987]

ESPN's "panel of experts." Please give us the names of those "experts."

And keep in mind, that those "panel of experts" ranked Kareem second. Which was interesting, since the last time their "experts" put up a ranking, in 1999 (ESPN's Sports Century), they ranked KAJ...FIFTH, and behind, Russell (4th), Magic (third), Wilt (second), and MJ at #1.

There was very little chance that this year's "panel of experts" ever saw Wilt, nor Russell, nor a prime Kareem, play. And please don't suggest that they watched footage of Wilt and Russell, either. For example, there is only 2% of Wilt's NBA career on video. Not only that, but aside from highlights of Wilt's '62 ASG (42 points, on 17-23 shooting, with 24 rebounds), there is not ONE full game, nor partial game...of any of Wilt's 271 40+ point games. Hell, there isn't any full, or even halves, of his 30+ point games.

Sorry, but Chamberlain will be remember long after both you and I are gone, while LeFlop will be best known for his flopping.
Walk up to random people and hold up pictures Chokerlain and LeBron, I bet you $10,000 that more people will recognize LeBron.

You're still melting over the FACT that LeBron is ranked higher than the mental midget by over 90% of basketball fans. Just sad. :oldlol:

EDIT: BTW, you've never seen the mental midget play and you literally get a boner every time his name is mentioned. I guess losers stan losers like Chokerlain.


LeChoke "clutch?"

Interesting,... just a year ago, and after losing game six in the Finals...ESPN ran this article...

THAT is why the "Lebron-Stopper" Iggy, won the FMVP. He did so ONE-ON-ONE, and not only holding LeChoke to a horrific .398 FG%...but completely shutting him down in the CLUTCH.
This is why you actually need to watch the games, retard. LeBron had no one to take the defensive/offensive pressure off of him. Who do you think would be doubled/tripled in the clutch? The answer is quite obvious.


Too bad he was injured in game six of this year's Finals...or there was a good chance we would reading about how LeChoke CHOKED again. Hell, in their game seven WIN this year, LeChoke went 0-4 from the floor in the last four minutes. Fortunately for LeFlop...Kyrie nailed the game-winner.
Yet, in game 5, LeBron scored 41/16/7/3/3 on 61%. With a healthy Iggy. In G3, he scored 32/11/6/1/2 on 57%.

The score was tied at that point, you inbred hick. This is why you need to watch the games. Besides, LeBron scored 11 of the teams 18 points in the 4th. Including a stretch during which he scored 8 straight and brought the Cavs back up from down 4 to give them a 2 point lead. Lets also not forget about LeBron's game saving block and championship clinching FT.

REALITY:

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

I'll give Ilt Chokerlain some credit though. He definitely is in the top 15-20 range. Right there with Barkley and KG.

[LAZERUSS]

We already know that Lebron just blew chunks all over the floor in the '15 Finals. Couldn't hit a shot to save his life, especially in the clutch. Made a hero out of role-player off the bench.

But, how about Lebron before the 2015 Finals, and up thru game four of the '14 Finals (article was written before his pathetic game five blowout loss performance.)

http://thesportspost.com/lebron-james-nba-finals-history/#axzz4J905enVG

It's a long read, but it breaks down LeChokes play in the Finals up to that point.
Remove 2012, and Lebron was basically a pure choker in his Finals...even in his best games.

[aj1987]

We already know that Lebron just blew chunks all over the floor in the '15 Finals. Couldn't hit a shot to save his life, especially in the clutch. Made a hero out of role-player off the bench.

But, how about Lebron before the 2015 Finals, and up thru game four of the '14 Finals (article was written before his pathetic game five blowout loss performance.)

http://thesportspost.com/lebron-james-nba-finals-history/#axzz4J905enVG

It's a long read, but it breaks down LeChokes play in the Finals up to that point.
Remove 2012, and Lebron was basically a pure choker in his Finals...even in his best games.
REALITY:

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

I'll give Ilt Chokerlain some credit though. He definitely is in the top 15-20 range. Right there with Barkley and KG.

[LostCause]

MJ never faced a single dominant team or Peak level GOAT in any of his 6 title runs.

There are no Kareem's or Bill Russells, in Mike's storyline....just john starks, danny ainge and Jeff Hornaceks


I guess its kind of obvious the agenda here when you name the role players of the respective teams Jordan faced while naming the stars of the others

Half truths like that really necessary?

[Big164]

Aj1987 idiots like you can rank Wilt/Lebron where ever you like. At the end of the day you can't change the record books. Chamberlain's name occupys more #1 spots in on basketball referrernce than any other player. He is #1 and #2 all time in PER, a metric that didn't even exist when he was alive.

His name in Basketball is like Isaac Newton to Science. 100 pts, 50 in a season, 20,000 rebounds, 20,000 women, the list goes on. He is Legendary and that's why he can spark a debate nearly a half century after his debut. Lebald will be surpassed in 15 years tops. Athletic SFs are a dime a dozen.

7/athletic/300 dominant only comes once every 50 years

[aj1987]

Aj1987 idiots like you can rank Wilt/Lebron where ever you like. At the end of the day you can't change the record books. Chamberlain's name occupys more #1 spots in on basketball referrernce than any other player. He is #1 and #2 all time in PER, a metric that didn't even exist when he was alive.

His name in Basketball is like Isaac Newton to Science. 100 pts, 50 in a season, 20,000 rebounds, 20,000 women, the list goes on. He is Legendary and that's why he can spark a debate nearly a half century after his debut. Lebald will be surpassed in 15 years tops. Athletic SFs are a dime a dozen.

7/athletic/300 dominant only comes once every 50 years

I don't want to heAr sh@t about the playoffs when Mj had the greatest defensive sf all time doing the dirty work, and the greatest defensive Pf doing thedirty from96-98

And I'm the idiot? :roll:

Stick to your original account, kid. You're not fooling anyone. At least loozerus tries to put in some effort to defend his statpadding and choking lover.

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

[LAZERUSS]

...


Continuing...

Gotta love the Ajackoffs of this site. CONTEXT. He has no clue what that means.

Scoring? How about post-season runs of 28, 29, 33, 35, 35, and 37 ppg? How about post-season series of 37, 37, 39, and 39 ppg? How about post-season series of 28-30, 29-28, 30-31, 31-27, and 34-27 against RUSSELL? How about 13 playoff games of 40+...11 of which came in his 52 playoff games in his "scoring" seasons (21% for those keeping track.) How about MUST WIN games of 45-27 (Finals BTW), 46-34 (against RUSSELL BTW), 50-22, 50-35 (against RUSSELL BTW), and even a 56-35-12 game? As well as another 50 point game in the '64 WDF's. Or series clinching games of 30-32, 30-26, 38-26, and 39-26-10?

How about his MUST WIN playoff games? In his 23 must win playoff games...

31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-seasons that shot .435 in the same span.)

How about his 37 MUST WIN, and SERIES CLINCHING playoff games?

29.5 ppg, 26.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, and on a .546 FG% (again, in post-seasons that shot .435 in that span...or nearly TWELVE percentage points above the league average.)


Rebounding? Simply...the GOAT post-season rebounder in NBA history. Yes, Russell had a slightly higher average... 24.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg...BUT, in their eight playoff series H2H's, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in EVERY one of them. Including margins of 5, 6, and even 9 rpg! Oh, Chamberlain is also the all-time FINALS leading rebounder with a career average of 24.6 rpg.

He played in 13 post-seasons, and his LOW was 20.2 rpg. He also had post-seasons of 28, 29, and even 30 rpg. And he had series of 30 and 31 rpg (both against RUSSELL BTW.) In his LAST post-season, at age 36, and covering 17 games... 22.5 rpg, in a post-season that averaged 50.6 rpg per team (just this last season the NBA averaged 42.0 rpg.) That translates to 19 rpg in the '16 playoffs. In his LAST season.

He played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of them. He was outrebounded by PF Jerry Lucas in ONE...and by a 21.0 to 20.0 rpg margin/ However, when the two faced each other as CENTERS, a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg, outrebounded the 31 year old Lacas, playing 46 mpg, by a 23.2 rpg to 9.8 rpg margin.

Wilt was outrebounding Reed by 14 rpg, Thurmond by 7 rpg, and Russell by 9 rpg.


Playoff RECORDS? Surely this "declining" Wilt would not have any post-season records, right? How about, and by far, the most 20-20 games, the most 30-20 games, the most 20-30 games, the most 30-30 games, the most 40-20 games, the most 40-30 games, the most 50-20 games, and the most 50-30 games? How about the most post-seasons of 20-20, 30-20, 30-25, 35-20?


Blocked shots? Tim Duncan just retired with the "official" post-season blocked shot record of 568 in his 251 playoff games. Well nbastats.net contributor, Julizaver found blocked shot data for 81 of Wilt's 160 post-season games...or roughly half (and almost all of it from the mid-60's on)...and... 590 blocked shots...in 81 games! Hell, an old Wilt blocked 33 shots in his '72 WCF's in the four known games of that series, and 15 of those were on KAJ!

Defense? Wilt held Russell to playoff series FG%'s of .399, .397, .386, and .358 (in a season in which Russell shot .454 against the NBA.) He held Thurmond to playoff series of .392, .373, and .343 (a PEAK Nate BTW...and in a season in which Thurmond shot .437 against the NBA.) He held Bellamy to .450 in a season in which Bellamy shot .521 against the NBA, and then to .421 in a season in which Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA. Oh, can't forget Kareem, either. KAJ shot .577 and .574 against the NBA in '71 and '72. Against Wilt in those two post-seasons? .481 and .457 (including .414 in the last four games of that series.)

How about Wilt's FG% in his six Finals? .559...all while holding his opposing centers (all in the HOF BTW)...to a combined .439. Or how about his two game seven's of the Finals? He outshot Reed and Russell by a combined .708 to .333 margin (all while averaging 19.5 ppg and 25.5 rpg.)


Passing? Find me a CENTER who averaged 9.0 apg in an entire playoff run (which, BTW, led the post-season that year.) Or a center who had two straight triple-double series (28-27-11, and 22-32-10)?


Of course, had a PRIME Wilt faced the likes of a washed Smits, or a 35 year old Mutombo (whom Shaq was allowed to beat to a bloody pulp in some of the most disgraceful offciating in Finals history), or a never-was in the career 6 ppg scoring MacCulloch, or the complete bust in Eric Dampier... in his Finals...no doubt he would have been putting up 30-40-and 50 point playoff games against them.


So, next time someone claims that Wilt was NOT a Top-5 playoff performer...well, they would be wrong.

[Big164]

Wilt set more records in his first year in the NBA , than Lebron did in 13 years

1959-60
* NBA Record - Most points per game by a rookie (37.6 in 1959-60)
* NBA Record - Most points by a rookie (2,707 in 1959-60)
* NBA Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (58 on January 25, 1960 and February 21, 1960)
* NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 20,000 Points (499, achieved in 1966)
* NBA Playoff Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (53 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)
* Pulled down a rookie playoff record 35 rebounds in the same game.
Chamberlain also scored 50 as a rookie against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960.
* NBA Record - Most rebounds per game by a rookie in a season (27.0)
* NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a season (1,941)
* NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a game (45 on February 6, 1960)

And thats just year one..

[aj1987]

Wilt set more records in his first year in the NBA , than Lebron did in 13 years

1959-60
* NBA Record - Most points per game by a rookie (37.6 in 1959-60)
* NBA Record - Most points by a rookie (2,707 in 1959-60)
* NBA Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (58 on January 25, 1960 and February 21, 1960)
* NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 20,000 Points (499, achieved in 1966)
* NBA Playoff Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (53 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)
* Pulled down a rookie playoff record 35 rebounds in the same game.
Chamberlain also scored 50 as a rookie against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960.
* NBA Record - Most rebounds per game by a rookie in a season (27.0)
* NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a season (1,941)
* NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a game (45 on February 6, 1960)

And thats just year one..
LeBron won more rings in the last 5 seasons, than Ilt did in his entire career.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt set more records in his first year in the NBA , than Lebron did in 13 years

1959-60
* NBA Record - Most points per game by a rookie (37.6 in 1959-60)
* NBA Record - Most points by a rookie (2,707 in 1959-60)
* NBA Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (58 on January 25, 1960 and February 21, 1960)
* NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 20,000 Points (499, achieved in 1966)
* NBA Playoff Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (53 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)
* Pulled down a rookie playoff record 35 rebounds in the same game.
Chamberlain also scored 50 as a rookie against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960.
* NBA Record - Most rebounds per game by a rookie in a season (27.0)
* NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a season (1,941)
* NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a game (45 on February 6, 1960)

And thats just year one..

And Wilt holds FAR more POST-SEASON RECORDS, as well.

How about 20-20 games? 30-20 games? 30-30 games? 40-20 games? 40-30 games? 50-20 games? Even 50-30 games?

How about 20-20 post-seasons? 25-20 post-seasons? 30-20 post-seasons? 30-25 post-seasons? Or even 35-25 post-seasons?

How about a TON of rebounding RECORDs, including the highest rebounding game in post-season history (and against RUSSELL no less)? Or the highest career Finals rpg mark of 24.6 rpg?

How about shooting 90% from the field in a Finals game?

How about a KNOWN 590 blocked shots, and that was in just 81 of his 160 playoff games (Duncan is the "official" record holder with 568 in his 251 career playoff games)?

Of course, Chamberlain is THE RECORD BOOK. Literally holds HUNDREDS, and likely THOUSANDS of NBA records.

[LAZERUSS]

LeBron won more rings in the last 5 seasons, than Ilt did in his entire career.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

His TEAMs won more than Wilt's TEAMS. And certainly, he can thank Ray Allen and Kyrie Irving for TWO of those.

Meanwhile, Chamberlain can "thank" teammates Johnny Egan and Hal Greer for LOSING TWO rings.

[Big164]

And I'm the idiot? :roll:


Yes you are!

You are pissed cuz you cant find a player that scored over a 100 pts in an NBA game or averaged More than 50 in a season. Only Wilt did such things so you are forced to use Wilt against Wilt.

[Big164]

LeBron won more rings in the last 5 seasons, than Ilt did in his entire career.

Kobe won as many rings as Lebron and Wilt combined, whats your point?

[aj1987]

Yes you are!

You are pissed cuz you cant find a player that scored over a 100 pts in an NBA game or averaged More than 50 in a season. Only Wilt did such things so you are forced to use Wilt against Wilt.
Seriously, kid? As I said, just give up on this alt account of yours.


Kobe won as many rings as Lebron and Wilt combined, whats your point?
And LeBron has the same number of FMVP's as Kobe and Chokerlain combined.


His TEAMs won more than Wilt's TEAMS. And certainly, he can thank Ray Allen and Kyrie Irving for TWO of those.
Yeah, thank Allen for an EPIC G7 and scoring 16 straight points in the 4th Q in G6 on 7/10 shooting and thank Irving for scoring 11 of the teams 18 points in the 4th. Including a stretch during which he scored 8 straight and brought the Cavs back up from down 4 to give them a 2 point lead. Lets also not forget about Irving's game saving block and championship clinching FT. Oh wait... NVM.



Meanwhile, Chamberlain can "thank" teammates Johnny Egan and Hal Greer for LOSING TWO rings.
Yeah, he only lost because of his coaches and teammates. How did he do when West went off for 40 PPG and won FMVP?

[LAZERUSS]

Seriously, kid? As I said, just give up on this alt account of yours.


And LeBron has the same number of FMVP's as Kobe and Chokerlain combined.


Yeah, thank Allen for an EPIC G7 and scoring 16 straight points in the 4th Q in G6 on 7/10 shooting and thank Irving for scoring 11 of the teams 18 points in the 4th. Including a stretch during which he scored 8 straight and brought the Cavs back up from down 4 to give them a 2 point lead. Lets also not forget about Irving's game saving block and championship clinching FT. Oh wait... NVM.



Yeah, he only lost because of his coaches and teammates. How did he do when West went off for 40 PPG and won FMVP?


At least a shackled Wilt didn't lose a FMVP to a role player coming off of the bench.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

BTW, Chamberlain CARRIED West to a title in '72. While West was puking all over the floor in the Finals, shooting .325 from the field...Wilt put up a dominating 19-24-7 .600 Finals, which included a clinching game five performance of 24-29-8, on a .714 FG%...en route to winning the FMVP.

[aj1987]

At least a shackled Wilt didn't lose a FMVP to a role player coming off of the bench.
No, he just lost, period. Even when teammates average 40/5/7 on 49% and win FMVP.


BTW, Chamberlain CARRIED West to a title in '72. While West was puking all over the floor in the Finals, shooting .325 from the field...Wilt put up a dominating 19-24-7 .600 Finals, which included a clinching game five performance of 24-29-8, on a .714 FG%...en route to winning the FMVP.
Yet the mental midget couldn't do it when West averaged 40/5/7 on 49% and won FMVP.

[LAZERUSS]

No, he just lost, period. Even when teammates average 40/5/7 on 49% and win FMVP.


Yet the mental midget couldn't do it when West averaged 40/5/7 on 49% and won FMVP.

Coach should have let WILT take the shots in '69. Instead, West and Baylor led them down the toilet, and with Wilt being benched by his incompetent coach in the last five minutes of a game seven in which he put up amn 18-27-10 game, on .875 shooting (and game high .621 TS%...while his opposing center had a .333 TS%.)

Of course, that Finals essentially ended VBK's coaching career, and cost LA their first ever NBA title. Fortunately for Laker fans, Wilt then carried them to a title a couple of years later (while West puked all over the floor.)

[aj1987]

Coach should have let WILT take the shots in '69. Instead, West and Baylor led them down the toilet, and with Wilt being benched by his incompetent coach in the last five minutes of a game seven in which he put up amn 18-27-10 game, on .875 shooting (and game high .621 TS%...while his opposing center had a .333 TS%.)

Of course, that Finals essentially ended VBK's coaching career, and cost LA their first ever NBA title. Fortunately for Laker fans, Wilt then carried them to a title a couple of years later (while West puked all over the floor.)
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Good lord. You really could write a book with all the excuses you come up for the mental midgets choking.

FACTS and STATS don't lie though.

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

Even if you're an utterly pathetic team with D-Leaguers, you shouldn't miss the PO's while averaging 45/24/3. The king of empty stats. :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Good lord. You really could write a book with all the excuses you come up for the mental midgets choking.

FACTS and STATS don't lie though.

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

Even if you're an utterly pathetic team with D-Leaguers, you shouldn't miss the PO's while averaging 45/24/3. The king of empty stats. :oldlol:

And yet...Wilt was never CLOSE to being the CHOKER that Mr. Choke was...


Interesting reading.

The first article covers every one of Lebron's Finals' games up thru game four of the 2014 Finals (and he would follow that up with a zero-impact effort in the clinching five blowout loss.)

http://thesportspost.com/lebron-jame...#axzz4J905enVG



Then, we can see just how "clutch" LeChoke was in his '15 Finals in this article...

http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/p...espnapi_public


Think about that. Aside from his 2012 Finals, he was choking in every other Finals in his career.

And this year was no different, either.

In game four he led his team down the toilet in the last minute, by repeatedly driving uncontested to the hoop in three straight possessions, and in which his team trailed by nine in each. He proved he would rather pad his stats than actually try to win the game with a three.

Luckily for him, the NBA suspended Green in a game five, which ultimately cost the Warriors a 4-1 series win. On top of that, the Warriors had key injuries to their lone rim-protector, and the Lebron-stopper, who had a history of completely shutting LeChoke down.

And even in the game seven WIN...LeChoke went 0-4 from the field in the last 4:14, and had his ass saved by Clutch Kyrie.

Remove Kyrie's game winner, and Ray Allen's miracle, and we would be reading about Mr. "1-7."

:roll:

King LeChoke...

:roll:

[aj1987]

And yet...LeBron was never CLOSE to being the CHOKER that Ms. Chokerlain was...



:roll:

Queen Chokerlain...

:roll:
Agreed! Stats agree with you as well.



https://s21.postimg.org/4xydfoobr/image.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8b/d8/1a/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg

Yet, in game 5, LeBron scored 41/16/7/3/3 on 61%. With a healthy Iggy. In G3, he scored 32/11/6/1/2 on 57%.

The score was tied at that point, you inbred hick. This is why you need to watch the games. Besides, LeBron scored 11 of the teams 18 points in the 4th. Including a stretch during which he scored 8 straight and brought the Cavs back up from down 4 to give them a 2 point lead. Lets also not forget about LeBron's game saving block and championship clinching FT.

Yeah, trying to hit people in the crotch does tend to get you a FLAGRANT FOUL. Once again, since you seem to me extremely slow, Green was given a FF and LeBron a technical. Due to his prior FF's he accumulated points, which got him suspended.


REALITY:

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

I'll give Ilt Chokerlain some credit though. He definitely is in the top 15-20 range. Right there with Barkley and KG.

[Mr Feeny]

Agreed! Stats agree with you as well.



https://s21.postimg.org/4xydfoobr/image.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8b/d8/1a/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg

Yet, in game 5, LeBron scored 41/16/7/3/3 on 61%. With a healthy Iggy. In G3, he scored 32/11/6/1/2 on 57%.

The score was tied at that point, you inbred hick. This is why you need to watch the games. Besides, LeBron scored 11 of the teams 18 points in the 4th. Including a stretch during which he scored 8 straight and brought the Cavs back up from down 4 to give them a 2 point lead. Lets also not forget about LeBron's game saving block and championship clinching FT.

Yeah, trying to hit people in the crotch does tend to get you a FLAGRANT FOUL. Once again, since you seem to me extremely slow, Green was given a FF and LeBron a technical. Due to his prior FF's he accumulated points, which got him suspended.


REALITY:

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

I'll give Ilt Chokerlain some credit though. He definitely is in the top 15-20 range. Right there with Barkley and KG.


Mods let's end this thread. It's hard to watch someone get slayed time and time again here. Thanks.