The History of Lebron's Finals

[LAZERUSS]

From another post in another topic...but it really deserves it's own thread.


Interesting reading.

The first article covers every one of Lebron's Finals' games up thru game four of the 2014 Finals (and he would follow that up with a zero-impact effort in the clinching five blowout loss.)

http://thesportspost.com/lebron-james-nba-finals-history/#axzz4J905enVG




Then, we can see just how "clutch" LeChoke was in his '15 Finals in this article...

http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/p...espnapi_public


Think about that. Aside from his 2012 Finals, he was choking in every other Finals in his career.

And this year was no different, either.

In game four he led his team down the toilet in the last minute, by repeatedly driving uncontested to the hoop in three straight possessions, and in which his team trailed by nine in each. He proved he would rather pad his stats than actually try to win the game with a three.

Luckily for him, the NBA suspended Green in a game five, which ultimately cost the Warriors a 4-1 series win. On top of that, the Warriors had key injuries to their lone rim-protector, and the Lebron-stopper, who had a history of completely shutting LeChoke down.

And even in the game seven WIN...LeChoke went 0-4 from the field in the last 4:14, and had his ass saved by Clutch Kyrie.

Remove Kyrie's game winner, and Ray Allen's miracle, and we would be reading about Mr. "1-7."

[TommyGriffin]

Good points but almost all of them have already been hashed over by warriorfan in great detail.

[K Xerxes]

Why have you suddenly gone from being reasonable about LeBron to trolling him incessantly since his finals win?

[Nilocon165]

Jesus Christ that's Jason Bourne

[K Xerxes]

Nba knows lebron is a choker. Thats why the only way he could win is through refs

Do you think LeBron should be respected? I feel like you haven't stated your views on this subject clearly enough.

[SouBeachTalents]

Tell me about Wilt's clutch or memorable Finals moments. Does he honestly even have one?

[ArbitraryWater]

Why have you suddenly gone from being reasonable about LeBron to trolling him incessantly since his finals win?

he does that with pretty much everyone.. just argues what isnt in in whatever thread he is, going against the grain every time.

[SamuraiSWISH]

2016 might be getting over hyped because of the overrated gimmicky opponent, with inflated regular season record due to weak league. And people underrate Kyrie's contributions. They were lucky Green was suspended (though he brought it on himself) ... And it was really 2 games where LeBron was actually great. And in one of them, game 5, Kyrie's scoring exhibition on a larger, quality defender was visibly more impressive. All things considering it's overrated performance individually, but it was still very impressive.

As was his 2015 considering he had no help.

Either way you cut it, he's better than Wilt. Ranking his Finals individually, not just team success:

1) '16 - Great
2) '12 - Good
3) '15 - Good
4) '13 - Decent
5) '14 - Average (numbers lie here)
6) '07 - Bad
7) '11 - Pitiful

[aj1987]

What a meltdown. OP stans the GOAT statpadder and mentally, the weakest player of all time. I can picture him crying and fuming while trying to defend his lover, but it's a futile attempt. Aptly named the big dipper. :roll:


.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

I'll give Ilt Chokerlain some credit though. He definitely is in the top 15-20 range. Right there with Barkley and KG.

[LostCause]

That sportspost page says some interesting shit and a lot of fair and true shit, but none of it is really anything an objective fan wouldn't already have seen or concluded and I'm sure if you had someone analyze any other Top-10 players Finals on a game-by-game basis you'd see plenty of ups and downs

Lebron is very unique though in that he has one of it not the lowest lows (Mavs series) yet also one of if not the highest highs (16 Warriors series). Love em or hate em, just don't forget to enjoy the ride either way

[LAZERUSS]

Tell me about Wilt's clutch or memorable Finals moments. Does he honestly even have one?

Aside from crushing a PEAK Thurmond in the '67 Finals...the same Nate who held a PEAK Kareem to a three straight Playoff series of .486, .405, and .428 shooting...and in KAJ's greatest regular season...outscored and outshot him in the playoffs.

And how about this...

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1967.htm

[QUOTE]S.F. rallied with a 6-0 run to take the lead 115-114 on a Barry 17-footer. Chamberlain then hit 2 free throws to make it 116-115 Philadelphia and followed it up with a dunk of the offensive boards to make it 118-115. It was 122-116 with 2:16 to play when King hit a jumper to cut the lead to 4. Thurmond blocked a shot and Barry converted the ensuing fastbreak to cut it to a 2-point defecit. Cunningham hit a free throw but Barry answered with 2 of his own to make it 123-122 with 0:46 left. The 76

[LAZERUSS]

Continued...


Of course...


Of course, the REAL Finals in Chamberlain's prime, the decade of the 60's, involved the Celtics vs. WILT. In Wilt's prime, he was in the Eastern Conference in seven of those 10 seasons...and faced the GOAT Dynasty in either his first, or second round, in SIX of them. Aside from his '69 season, when his incompetent COACH chose West and Baylor's offense over Wilt's (and was basically run out of town immediately after that Finals), Wilt played in the West in two more seasons. In one, his team was so bad that they didn't make the playoffs (and all Chamberlain could do was average 45 ppg, and lead the league in 15 of the 22 statistical categories of the time.)

So, again, excluding '69, when his coach preferred losing over having Wilt lead his team to a title...Chamberlain faced a Western Division foe exactly...ONCE...in the entire decade of the 60's. Not coincidently, all he could do was average 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and shoot .559 from the floor (in an NBA that shot .420 in that post-season), which included one game of 50 points, and a clinching game seven of 39-26 with 10 blocks. ONE SERIES.

How did a prime Wilt fare against the CELTICS in that decade? Again, let's forget the '69 Finals (in which he still outplayed Russell)...and he had post-seasons of 22-25-7 (on an injured leg in a seven game series); 22-32-10; 28-30; 29-28; 30-31; 31-27; and 34-27.

Furthermore, had Wilt been in the WD in his prime, he likely would have faced the Lakers several times in the WD playoffs. Russell built his post-season stats by feasting on the "center-less" Lakers in that decade. And yet, Chamberlain never had the opportunity to face them even ONCE! How dominant was Wilt against LA in the decade of the 60's? He faced them 86 times, and hung 42 40+ point games against them, including 19 of 50+, seven of 60+, and even two of 70+ (which included a 78-43 game.)

As for "pace"...hmmm, in Wilt's highest scoring Finals, he averaged 29 ppg on 24 FGA (and again, against RUSSELL.) How about Lebron's highest scoring Finals? 36 ppg on...33 FGA per game...and with single-coverage against a role player coming off the bench. Had Wilt taken 33 FGAs (and adjusted his already .517 FG% to '15 post-season levels...or .600), and he would have averaged 20 FGM...or 40 ppg, just on his FGAs. Then, can you imagine Boston single-covering a prime Wilt with a 35 year old Lovellette in his last season? Hell, a prime Chamberlain was pouring in 50+ ppg games against a prime Clyde.

And now, let's move a prime Lebron from his Eastern Conference, to the Western Conference in his career, shall we? Well, luckily for LeChoke, he would never have made the Finals in '07, nor '11, perhaps the two worst ever by a Top-10 player in his prime. Of course, he couldn't even get to the Finals in the weak ECF in '08 and '09, so he wouldn't have sniffed them in the West, either. That leaves '12, '13, '14, '15, and '16.

2012...a breeze to the Finals in the East. Didn't face one team in the ECF that would have beaten a WCF playoff team. Still, his team did beat the Thunder in the Finals...so I will give that to him.

2013. Who knows? One thing, though...his team wouldn't have gone 66-16 in the West. As it was, the East was a POS conference in which no team was close to the Heat. And yet they STILL struggled mightily against a Pacer team that would have been at the bottom of the West in the post-season. Then, they were a miraculous Allen shot away from losing to the Spurs in six games.

2014. Would never have come close to the Finals. The Spurs annihilated them in the Finals.

2015. Would never have sniffed the Finals, and were wiped out by the Warriors in the Finals.

2016. People forget that the Warriors were up 3-1, in a series in which 3" was a passive bystander. Then, a suspension to their best all-around player, an injury to their rim protector, and an injury to Iggy...the same role player who held Lebron to 39% shooting in the Finals. BTW, in their two regular season H2H's, a HEALTHY Iguodala held Lebron to 20.5 ppg on a .404 FG%.

Furthermore...the '16 Cavs had a cakewalk to the Finals. Put them in the WC, where they would have faced two of... either the Spurs, Warriors, or Thunder (the same Thunder team that dominated a much healthier Warrior team in the first four games of the WCF's, and were within a couple of minutes of beating them two more times)...and I seriously doubt that the Cavs would have made it thru that gauntlet to the Finals.

As for MVPs...interesting that Wilt "only' won four MVPs in the '60's, too. He was beaten out by Russell in '61 and '62...and yet was voted First Team All-NBA over Russell in those two seasons. BTW, compare Russell's team success, and Russell's stats ...with Wilt's team success, and Wilt's team success in BOTH '60 and '62...and explain to me how Russell won the MVP in '62, and not in '60, when a rookie Wilt ran away with it. The ONLY thing that changed from '60 to '62...was that Wilt was even far greater in his '62 season.

Russell also won the '65 MVP...BUT, in the EDF's, Chamberlain just CRUSHED him in EVERY facet of the game. Wilt took the same roster that had gone 34-46 the year before...to a game seven, one point loss, against a Celtic team that was it's peak (going 62-18.) In that series, Wilt outscored Russell, 30-16 ppg; outrebounded Russell, 31-25 rpp; outshot Russell from the field .555 to .440; outshot him from the line, .583 to .472; outshot him in TS%, .565 to .450; and even outblocked him in their known games, 35-22.

The reality was, Chamberlain was the best player in the league right from his first game (43-28-17 BTW)...and the MVP in his rookie season...thru the mid-60's when he ran away with the MVP three straight seasons, and even into Russell's last season (and Wilt's last season before he shredded his knee)...when Chamberlain dominated all three of the centers who finished ahead of him in the MVP balloting (Unseld, Reed, and Russell.)


Incidently, Wilt won a FMVP averaging 19 ppg, and would surely have won a FMVP in '67, had the award existed, in a Finals in which he averaged 18 ppg (and an opposing player played like Lebron in the '15 Finals... 41 ppg on a .408 FG%.)

Furthermore, put a prime Wilt in the Finals against the likes of a washed up Rik Smits in his last season; or a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was already to bloody to a pulp; or a never was in the 6-11 MaCulloch (who had a 4 year year career in which he averaged 6 ppg); or the complete bust in Erik Dampier....and well, needless to say that he would have put up staggering numbers.

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...


The REALITY was...Wilt DOMINATED that series. In fact, one of the GOAT Finals.

As was his '67 Finals, when again, he "only" averaged 18 ppg...BUT just crushed a peak Thurmond in every facet of the game...en route to leading the Sixers to a title. Oh, and in that same series, Rick Barry averaged 41 ppg, but on a "Lebron-like" .408 FG%. Clearly, Wilt would have won the FMVP had the award existed.

Of course, only Chamberlain and Russell could so thoroughly dominate in the post-season without scoring.

How much IMPACT did Wilt have at the DEFENSIVE end in the post-season? Let's start with rim protection, shall we? Tim Duncan is the "official" all-time playoff block leader, with 568 in his 251 post-season games. Well, in Julizaver's research (a contributor at nabstats.net)...he found Wilt's block totals in 81 of Chamberlain's 160 playoff games...or roughly half. Guess what? 590 blocked shots! More blocked shots in 81 games, than Timmy had in 251. And before someone claims "era" against Wilt. A 35 year old Wilt had a known 33 blocked shots in four of the six games of the '72 WCF's....including FIFTEEN of Kareem's. He also averaged 7.4 bpg in the Finals that year, as well.

But how about H2H defense, you ask? He held Russell to a playoff series of .399, .397, .386, and .358. He held Thurmond to playoff series of .392, .373, and .343. He held Bellamy to playoff series of .450 and .421 (in a season in which Bellamy shot .541 against the league.) Oh, and in his two playoff series against a peak Kareem... .481 and .457 (including .414 in the last four games of that series) in seasons in which KAJ shot .577 and .574 against the league.

Rebounding? Forget the supposed "inflated" totals. Chamberlain played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of them,...which included 18 series against HOF centers. In the ONE in which he was outrebounded, it was by PF Jerry Lucas with a 21.0 rpg to 20.0 rpg margin. However, when the two met as CENTERS in the '72 Finals...a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg, outrebounded the 31 year old Lucas, who was playing 46 mpg...by a 23.2 to 9.8 margin!

Not only was Chamberlain outrebounding these guys, he was SLAUGHTERING them. He had post-season series against Reed in which he outrebounded him by 14 rpg. Against Thurmond by 7 rpg. Against Russell by margins of 5, 6, and even 9 rpg. SERIES!

Clearly, Wilt was the GOAT post-season rebounder. Oh, and for those that love to bash his Finals scoring...Wilt is the all-time Finals leader at 24.6 rpg.

BTW, a 36 year old Wilt, in his last post-season, and covering 17 games...averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg per team. The next highest since? 18.3...by Garnett, in a 3 game series.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...


Continuing...

Wilt's "scoring" in the post-season. First of all, no other all-time great sacrificed as much of their offense, as Wilt did in his career. I find it amusing that the "bashers" always use 30-22-18 (actually, 30-23-19) without CONTEXT.

How about this? Do you think Phil Jackson would have asked MJ to become a facilitator, and cut his scoring by 10 ppg or more? And do you think Jackson would have asked Shaq to play the HIGH POST? Yet, Wilt's COACHES asked Chamberlain to do both. And he complied.

A "scoring" Wilt averaged 33 ppg in his 52 post-season games...30 of which came against RUSSELL. In those 52 games, he had 11 of 40+...or 21%. He had post-seasons of 28 ppg, 29 ppg, 33 ppg, 35 ppg, 35 ppg, and 37 ppg. He had post-season series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg, and 39 ppg. He had FOUR games of 50+, including THREE in "must win" games. He had "must win" playoff games against RUSSELL of 46 and 50 points. He had a "must win" Finals game of 45 (on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds.)

Some idiots here have used Wilt's '67 playoff run as an example to rip his scoring. All Chamberlain did in that run, was put up series of 28-27-11 .617; 22-32-10 .556; and 18-29-7 .560. In the very first two games of the playoffs he scored 41 and 37 points (on a combined 35-54 shooting ...or 65%.) CLEARLY, had he NEEDED to, he could have scored FAR more. As it was, in his series clinching Final against Russell, he outscored Russell 29-4 (which is deceptive, since he had 22 at the half when the game was still close); outrebounded Russell, 36-21; outshot Russell, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisted Russell, 13-7; and even took the time to swat 7 shots. In the '67 Finals, he outscored Thurmond in five of the six games; outrebounded him in five of the six games; outassisted him five of the six games; and outshot him in EVERY game (and by a staggering .560 to .343 overall.) In the clinching game six win, Chamberlain outscored Thurmond by a 24-12 margin, outrebounded him by a 23-22 margin, and outshot him by an 8-13 to 4-13 margin.

Even after his knee injury in the '69-70 season, Wilt came back to hang the only 20-20- .600 Finals in NBA history ( 23.2 ppg, 24. rpg, and on a .625 FG%.)

I already mentioned it, but he outplayed Kareem in their '71 WCF's, and then by ALL accounts, outplayed him again in their '72 WCF's H2H. Time Magazine went so far as to claim that Wilt DECISIVELY outplayed KAJ. BTW, in their two series clinching H2H games... Wilt outshot KAJ from the floor by a .545 (18-33) to .383 (23-60) margin.

Oh, and in his six Finals, he collectively outshot his opposing centers (all in the HOF BTW)...by a .559 to .439 margin.


And for the idiots that claim that Wilt was a "choker"...

in his 23 "must win" playoff games, all he did was average 31.1 ppg (just behind Lebron's 32.6 and MJ's 31.3 ppg), with 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG%. In his 37 "must win" and "series clinching" games... 29.5 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .546 FG% (in leagues that shot about .435 in that same span.) All while destroying his opposing centers in every facet of the game.

The bottom line, though, was that Wilt did what was asked of him by his coaches...even against his better judgement (see the '69 Finals.)

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...


Had a prime Wilt faced the likes of a washed-up Smits in his last season; a 35 year old Mutombo whom Shaq was allowed to bloody to a pulp; a never was career 6 ppg scorer in MacCulloch; and a complete bust in Dampier...in four Finals, ... and his "18 ppg Finals" would have approached 30-40 ppg in those four Finals alone.

BTW, when I mentioned "bloody to a pulp"...I wasn't kidding...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

I counted at least FOUR offensive fouls in that sequence alone, as well as a full-blown charge.

BTW, regarding Lebrons' three rings (and Wilt's two)...Lebron was one Ray Allen 3pter, and one Kyrie 3pter away from "1-7." Meanwhile, Chamberlain was one bad inbounds pass, and one stolen dribble by two teammates...away from four rings. TWO shots, and TWO turnovers away from Chamberlain holding a 4-1 margin over Lebron.

[tpols]

That sportspost page says some interesting shit and a lot of fair and true shit, but none of it is really anything an objective fan wouldn't already have seen or concluded and I'm sure if you had someone analyze any other Top-10 players Finals on a game-by-game basis you'd see plenty of ups and downs

Lebron is very unique though in that he has one of it not the lowest lows (Mavs series) yet also one of if not the highest highs (16 Warriors series). Love em or hate em, just don't forget to enjoy the ride either way

the most GOAT thing about LeBron is his physical stamina / longevity .. most guys who are expending a ton of energy doing a lot of things start to slow down after a multiple consecutive seasons of 100+ games.. LeBron is the first athlete i've ever seen to just never get hurt or tired.. he just keeps going. He's like a taller adrian peterson on PEDs, just rock solid.

it does seem like wilt might've had some of that as well too though.. plus he competed in sports outside basketball. I've always maintained after looking into chamberlains game that he was very similar to LeBron from a physical and mental perspective. My grandfather grew up in philly and used to tell me how wilt in his high school championship game was guarded by four guys with one left to roam on the other teammates.. and they lost.. lol. he was like javale mcgee athleticism (probably a lot more) with pau gasol esque skill for newbies.. and thats not counting the toughness.. much less pc, fist to mouth era wilt grew up in.

Either way, theyre cut from a similar cloth and two of the GOAT players and specimens of all time.. you got dummie trolls riling up laz.. just a shit fest back and forth, but theyre both all time greats at the end of the day.

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...


Continuing...

Gotta love the Ajackoffs of this site. CONTEXT. He has no clue what that means.

Scoring? How about post-season runs of 28, 29, 33, 35, 35, and 37 ppg? How about post-season series of 37, 37, 39, and 39 ppg? How about post-season series of 28-30, 29-28, 30-31, 31-27, and 34-27 against RUSSELL? How about 13 playoff games of 40+...11 of which came in his 52 playoff games in his "scoring" seasons (21% for those keeping track.) How about MUST WIN games of 45-27 (Finals BTW), 46-34 (against RUSSELL BTW), 50-22, 50-35 (against RUSSELL BTW), and even a 56-35-12 game? As well as another 50 point game in the '64 WDF's. Or series clinching games of 30-32, 30-26, 38-26, and 39-26-10?

How about his MUST WIN playoff games? In his 23 must win playoff games...

31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-seasons that shot .435 in the same span.)

How about his 37 MUST WIN, and SERIES CLINCHING playoff games?

29.5 ppg, 26.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, and on a .546 FG% (again, in post-seasons that shot .435 in that span...or nearly TWELVE percentage points above the league average.)


Rebounding? Simply...the GOAT post-season rebounder in NBA history. Yes, Russell had a slightly higher average... 24.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg...BUT, in their eight playoff series H2H's, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in EVERY one of them. Including margins of 5, 6, and even 9 rpg! Oh, Chamberlain is also the all-time FINALS leading rebounder with a career average of 24.6 rpg.

He played in 13 post-seasons, and his LOW was 20.2 rpg. He also had post-seasons of 28, 29, and even 30 rpg. And he had series of 30 and 31 rpg (both against RUSSELL BTW.) In his LAST post-season, at age 36, and covering 17 games... 22.5 rpg, in a post-season that averaged 50.6 rpg per team (just this last season the NBA averaged 42.0 rpg.) That translates to 19 rpg in the '16 playoffs. In his LAST season.

He played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of them. He was outrebounded by PF Jerry Lucas in ONE...and by a 21.0 to 20.0 rpg margin/ However, when the two faced each other as CENTERS, a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg, outrebounded the 31 year old Lacas, playing 46 mpg, by a 23.2 rpg to 9.8 rpg margin.

Wilt was outrebounding Reed by 14 rpg, Thurmond by 7 rpg, and Russell by 9 rpg.


Playoff RECORDS? Surely this "declining" Wilt would not have any post-season records, right? How about, and by far, the most 20-20 games, the most 30-20 games, the most 20-30 games, the most 30-30 games, the most 40-20 games, the most 40-30 games, the most 50-20 games, and the most 50-30 games? How about the most post-seasons of 20-20, 30-20, 30-25, 35-20?


Blocked shots? Tim Duncan just retired with the "official" post-season blocked shot record of 568 in his 251 playoff games. Well nbastats.net contributor, Julizaver found blocked shot data for 81 of Wilt's 160 post-season games...or roughly half (and almost all of it from the mid-60's on)...and... 590 blocked shots...in 81 games! Hell, an old Wilt blocked 33 shots in his '72 WCF's in the four known games of that series, and 15 of those were on KAJ!

Defense? Wilt held Russell to playoff series FG%'s of .399, .397, .386, and .358 (in a season in which Russell shot .454 against the NBA.) He held Thurmond to playoff series of .392, .373, and .343 (a PEAK Nate BTW...and in a season in which Thurmond shot .437 against the NBA.) He held Bellamy to .450 in a season in which Bellamy shot .521 against the NBA, and then to .421 in a season in which Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA. Oh, can't forget Kareem, either. KAJ shot .577 and .574 against the NBA in '71 and '72. Against Wilt in those two post-seasons? .481 and .457 (including .414 in the last four games of that series.)

How about Wilt's FG% in his six Finals? .559...all while holding his opposing centers (all in the HOF BTW)...to a combined .439. Or how about his two game seven's of the Finals? He outshot Reed and Russell by a combined .708 to .333 margin (all while averaging 19.5 ppg and 25.5 rpg.)


Passing? Find me a CENTER who averaged 9.0 apg in an entire playoff run (which, BTW, led the post-season that year.) Or a center who had two straight triple-double series (28-27-11, and 22-32-10)?


Of course, had a PRIME Wilt faced the likes of a washed Smits, or a 35 year old Mutombo (whom Shaq was allowed to beat to a bloody pulp in some of the most disgraceful offciating in Finals history), or a never-was in the career 6 ppg scoring MacCulloch, or the complete bust in Eric Dampier... in his Finals...no doubt he would have been putting up 30-40-and 50 point playoff games against them.


So, next time someone claims that Wilt was NOT a Top-5 playoff performer...well, they would be wrong.

[LAZERUSS]

...


How about this...

Lebron led his 57-25 team over the 73-9 Warriors in the Finals, which included teammate Kyrie hitting the game-winning shot in the clincher...in a game seven in which Lebron put up a 27-11-11 game on a .475 TS%...in a series in which James averaged 29.7 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 8.9 apg, 2.3 bpg, and shot a TS% of .562...

with...

Chamberlain leading his 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss, in a game in which teammate Greer threw an in-bounds pass from under their offensive basket, that was intercepted by Havlicek in the last few seconds...in a game seven in which Chamberlain put up a 30-32 game on a .698 TS%...
in a series in which Wilt averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, 3.3 apg, 7.0 bpg, and shot a TS% of .560.

Granted, Chamberlain's came in the EDF's, and not in the Finals...BUT, the Celtics would go on to crush the Baylor-less Lakers in the Finals, 4-1, in a series in which Russell would average 18-25 on a .702 FG%.

Bottom line...Lebron was one teammate's winning shot away from losing that game seven, while Chamberlain was one teammate's bone-headed pass away from likely winning that game seven.


Originally Posted by Psileas
That series by Wilt was easily among the greatest ever. Against a team that won 22 games more and went on to beat the Lakers in 5, not against a team that had already almost lost to the Thunder, already proving that they were not all-time GOAT playoff material, unless the Thunder are also considered by anyone an all-time great team, which I've never seen anyone claim.

(Isn't it funny how these trolls try to disparage Wilt by claiming that "playoffs are what matter", yet they want us to be in awe of Lebron's team beating a team that had only dominated in the regular season and had already lost 5 games before the Finals had even started?)


Easily the MOST DOMINANT playoff series EVER. Here was Chamberlain, traded at mid-season for three players, to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before...and just CARPET-BOMBING another GOAT-Level player, and his 62-18 Celtics with an unstoppable seven game series.

30 ppg on 21 FGAs per game, with a .555 FG%, in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot a collective .412 from the field.

In game seven, Chamberlain shot 12-15 (.800) from the floor, and his teammates collectively shot 29-75 from the field (.387)...in a one-point loss. BTW, Wilt scored Philly's last eight points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs left, and then a thunderous dunk over Russell with 5 secs left, to pull the Sixers to within 110-109. Then the "clutch" Russell hit a guidewire with his inbounds pass, giving the ball back to Philly with five secs left and under their own basket. However, as was almost always the case... a Wilt teammate, this time Greer, choked, and threw an in-bounds pass that was picked off by Hondo.

Wilt outscored a Top-5 GOAT by a 30.1 ppg to 15.6 ppg margin; outrebounded him by a 31.4 rpg to 25.2 rpg margin; outshot him by a .550 to .447 margin; outshot him from the FT line by a .583 to .472 margin; had a TS% advantage of .560 to .450; and even outblocked him in known blocks by a 35-22 margin.

Again...THE most dominant series ever administered by one GOAT upon another.


Of course, he would equal it in the '67 EDF's, when he and his Sixers crushed the eight-time defending, and 60-21, champs...4-1, in a series in which they were four points away from a sweep in game four.

In the clinching game five 140-116 win, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 29-4 (with 22 of them coming in the first half when the game was still close; outshot Russell from the field, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisted Russell, 13-7; outrebounded Russell, 36-21; and even took the time to block 7 shots.

For the series, Chamberlain hung his second consecutive TRIPLE-DOUBLE series (his first was a 28-27-11 .617 series against the Royals), with a 22-32-10 .556 series. He outscored Russell, per game, 21.6 ppg to 11.2 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, by a 32.0 rpg to 23.4 rpg margin; outassisted Russell, per game, by a 10.0 apg to 6.0 apg margin; and outshot Russell from the field by a .556 to .358 margin.

[aj1987]

So many excuses for the statpadding and choking mental midget, Ilt Chokerlain. :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

So many excuses for the statpadding and choking mental midget, Ilt Chokerlain. :oldlol:

CHOKING...

:roll: :roll:


Interesting reading.

The first article covers every one of Lebron's Finals' games up thru game four of the 2014 Finals (and he would follow that up with a zero-impact effort in the clinching five blowout loss.)

http://thesportspost.com/lebron-jame...#axzz4J905enVG



Then, we can see just how "clutch" LeChoke was in his '15 Finals in this article...

http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/p...espnapi_public


Think about that. Aside from his 2012 Finals, he was choking in every other Finals in his career.

And this year was no different, either.

In game four he led his team down the toilet in the last minute, by repeatedly driving uncontested to the hoop in three straight possessions, and in which his team trailed by nine in each. He proved he would rather pad his stats than actually try to win the game with a three.

Luckily for him, the NBA suspended Green in a game five, which ultimately cost the Warriors a 4-1 series win. On top of that, the Warriors had key injuries to their lone rim-protector, and the Lebron-stopper, who had a history of completely shutting LeChoke down.

And even in the game seven WIN...LeChoke went 0-4 from the field in the last 4:14, and had his ass saved by Clutch Kyrie.

Remove Kyrie's game winner, and Ray Allen's miracle, and we would be reading about Mr. "1-7."

[LAZERUSS]

Why have you suddenly gone from being reasonable about LeBron to trolling him incessantly since his finals win?

Because we have witnessed Lebron passively handing the the '16 Finals off yet again in the first four games,, and if Green had not been given a completed undeserved suspension, Lebron would have been watching Green hoisting the FMVP...

to all of a sudden Lebron is considered GOAT-level?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I put him in the 6-8 range, with Shaq and Duncan...but nowhere near the true GOATs, like Wilt, MJ, Magic, KAJ, and Russell.

[SouBeachTalents]

Because we have witnessed Lebron passively handing the the '16 Finals off yet again in the first four games,, and if Green had not been given a completed undeserved suspension, Lebron would have been watching Green hoisting the FMVP...

to all of a sudden Lebron is considered GOAT-level?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I put him in the 6-8 range, with Shaq and Duncan...but nowhere near the true GOATs, like Wilt, MJ, Magic, KAJ, and Russell.

How is LeBron "nowhere near" Magic?

[LAZERUSS]

How is LeBron "nowhere near" Magic?

Magic is THE GOAT winner..period. Highest W-L percentage in NBA history. FIVE rings in NINE Finals. SHOULD have won FOUR FMVP's (robbed in '88.) And had he not been injured in the last half of '81, and had to play a best-of-three in the first round, he likely would have won another ring. Then, had he AND Byron Scott not missed all but ONE Finals game in '89, likely yet ANOTHER ring. Oh, and then 1984. Granted Magic blew ONE game, with a missed FT down the stretch, (as did Worthy in the same game BTW), but he was also a Worthy bone-head pass away from SWEEPING the Celtics. And all "Tragic" could do was average 18 ppg, and team leading 8 rpg, 14 apg, and shoot .560 from the floor in that series. Think about that...Magic won FIVE rings, and could easily have won EIGHT!

And before someone mentions KAJ...the year after he retired, Magic led LA to a 61-17 record, and followed that up with a 57-22 record, and a trip to the Finals in his last season. BTW, in the games Kareem missed in the 10 years that he and Magic played together...Magic's teams went 24-8, including 1-0 in the Finals (and a clinching Finals win it was BTW.)

Magic made his teammates MUCH better. The same can't be said for Lebron, though.

And while we have SEVERAL Lebron "flop jobs" in his post-season career, you would be hard-pressed to find more than a couple for Magic.

[aj1987]

How is LeBron "nowhere near" Magic?
The dude is just straight melting after the epic level of exposure of his lovers choking. Deep down, he knows that LeBron is top 5 and Ilt is top 15 at best.


CHOKING...

:roll: :roll:
I don't know why you're laughing about your lovers choking and mental midgetry.

[TheWinningFam]

OP embarrasing himself with this thread. :facepalm

[RRR3]

2016 might be getting over hyped because of the overrated gimmicky opponent, with inflated regular season record due to weak league. And people underrate Kyrie's contributions. They were lucky Green was suspended (though he brought it on himself) ... And it was really 2 games where LeBron was actually great. And in one of them, game 5, Kyrie's scoring exhibition on a larger, quality defender was visibly more impressive. All things considering it's overrated performance individually, but it was still very impressive.

As was his 2015 considering he had no help.

Either way you cut it, he's better than Wilt. Ranking his Finals individually, not just team success:

1) '16 - Great
2) '12 - Good
3) '15 - Good
4) '13 - Decent
5) '14 - Average (numbers lie here)
6) '07 - Bad
7) '11 - Pitiful
12 was great. He controlled the series.

[Mr Feeny]

he does that with pretty much everyone.. just argues what isnt in in whatever thread he is, going against the grain every time.

No he's melting down because lebron left both his idols in dust after this year's finals.

He actually said that "le"3 choked and needed Kyrie to save him in game 7" after lebron lead the Cavs in scoring in a 4 point game 7 win as well as leading the Cavs in assists and rebounds.

He's not trolling. He genuinely doesn't understand basketball.

[Mr Feeny]

How is LeBron "nowhere near" Magic?

He's furious that Lebron left Kobe and Wilt behind and is embarassing himself trying to diminish everything about Lebron.

Expect a lot of " Lebron "3 inch lechoke".
It's like talking to an 11 year old.

[Mr Feeny]

Because we have witnessed Lebron passively handing the the '16 Finals off yet again in the first four games,, and if Green had not been given a completed undeserved suspension, Lebron would have been watching Green hoisting the FMVP...

to all of a sudden Lebron is considered GOAT-level?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I put him in the 6-8 range, with Shaq and Duncan...but nowhere near the true GOATs, like Wilt, MJ, Magic, KAJ, and Russell.Unfortunately for you, the general consensus is that Lebron is several tiers above Wilt and even further ahead of Kobe.


Kareem, Jordan, Lebron are pretty much top 3. Russell and magic might well round up the top 5. You can disagree with Lebron's placement but unfortunately, that's where the vast majority of basketball fans now have him. As a top 3 player.

You ok?:(

[Lebron23]

LeBron is a superior finals performer than Wilt. Ilt was not even a good scorer in the finals.

[Mr Feeny]

LeBron is a superior finals performer than Wilt. Ilt was not even a good scorer in the finals.He's an 18 ppg, 37%FT shooter in finals.
When the stakes were high, this man "wilted":lol

We can't blame west for not winning more when he had to drag this choker with him:(

[34-24 Footwork]

Unfortunately for you, the general consensus is that Lebron is several tiers above Wilt and even further ahead of Kobe.


Kareem, Jordan, Lebron are pretty much top 3. Russell and magic might well round up the top 5. You can disagree with Lebron's placement but unfortunately, that's where the vast majority of basketball fans now have him. As a top 3 player.

You ok?:(

So many lies in one post. Lol. Lebron is consensus top 10 though.

[Mr Feeny]

So many truths that i as a kobe stan cant handle :rant in one post. Lol. Lebron is consensus top 3 though.:( :lol

[swagga]

my boy laz is so upset he gonna write a book in the thread :oldlol:

[Lebron23]

He's an 18 ppg, 37%FT shooter in finals.
When the stakes were high, this man "wilted":lol

We can't blame west for not winning more when he had to drag this choker with him:(


Damn

[AirFederer]

MJ
Magic
LeBron
Kareem
Russ
Bird
Duncan/Shaq
.
.
.
12th: Kobe/Wilt

That is all

[LAZERUSS]

Here we go...

2007:


Primary Defender: Bruce Bowen

Secondary Defenders: Michael Finley, Manu Ginobili

Primary Rim Protector: Tim Duncan

Game 1: 14 points, 4-of-16 shooting (25%), 7 assists, 4 rebounds. Spurs win 85-76.

LeBron’s first game in the Finals was a personal disaster, but ultimately didn’t end up as a blowout. Bruce Bowen’s defensive strategy of forcing LeBron left made him very uncomfortable early on, but his teammates actually picked up some of the slack. Four other Cavs ended up in double figures: Boobie Gibson, Anderson Varejao, Drew Gooden, and Sasha Pavlovic, and all shot above 50 percent from the field. The deciding factor was rebounding, as Duncan’s 13 helped give the Spurs an 11-rebound advantage. So far, not so good for LeBron.

Game 2: 25 points, 9-of-21 shooting (42.9%), 6 assists, 7 rebounds. Spurs win 103-92.

Game 2 was a blowout, don’t let the final score tell you otherwise. The Spurs were up 27 heading into the fourth quarter thanks largely to their Big Three. Their two guards, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili combined for 55 points—some being defended by LeBron (particularly Manu, who scored 25), some not—to lead the Spurs to the win.

This is the game where the whole “LeBron had no one to play with” narrative really bears merit. No Cavalier besides James had more than three assists. Only Gooden and Gibson topped 10 points. By this point, two key free agent acquisitions—Hughes and Donyell Marshall—have shot a combined 4-of-19. Not surprisingly, the Spurs dominated.

Game 3: 25 points, 9-of-23 shooting (39.1%), 7 assists, 8 rebounds. Spurs win 75-72.


LeBron James Cleveland CavaliersConsidering the way this game went, LeBron’s inefficiencies can be forgiven. It was all about defense, and the few Cavs who did reach double figures (Pavlovic, Gooden, Zydrunas Illgauskas) did so below 50 percent. The real issue here, one that might’ve cost Cleveland the game, was LeBron’s shot selection. Most notably, he went 0-of-5 from three-point range. Typically in slugfests like this, stars barrel to the line and hope for whistles knowing that free throws can forgive even the lowest field goal percentages. But LeBron, with an undeveloped shooting motion compared to now, kept taking bad shots away from the basket.

Nonetheless, you have to admire LeBron and the Cavs for their defense in the series. When we talk about LeBron’s Cleveland teams, this is the fact that’s conveniently ignored: they played excellent defense. Though Parker had his way with them, they did a fairly decent job of containing Duncan and even managed to completely take Ginobili out of Game 3. Steve Nash never won a championship with Phoenix largely because he and his teammates never played any defense, but we never question his surrounding talent. LeBron’s Cavs teams were built around defense, and that’s something we have to consider when judging his teammates’ performance in these Finals.

Game 4: 24 points, 10-of-30 shooting (33.3%), 10 assists, 6 rebounds. Spurs win 83-82.

Had this game been played a year or two later, the Cavaliers likely win it, but in only his fourth year in the league LeBron wasn’t yet ready to carry a team at will. As great as he was, shifting into hero ball mode was exactly what the Spurs wanted. They stifled him into a horrible shooting performance, the rest of his team following suit.

It was a great example of a problem LeBron has had throughout his entire career. On a play-by-play basis, LeBron possesses an exemplary basketball IQ; however, he often misjudges the approach he should bring into a specific game. Jacking up 30 shots played right into San Antonio’s hands, at the time— eventually, we will complain about LeBron being too passive. But more on that later.

Series thoughts: The ultimate question you have to ask with this series is whether or not we blame LeBron for getting swept. We never could’ve expected him to win it, but could he have put up a better fight?

The short answer is maybe. Remember, the ultimate expectation was for Detroit and San Antonio to meet in the Finals again after their last series went seven games. The rematch was expected to be similarly close, even if San Antonio had the edge (mainly because Ben Wallace was gone). By beating the Pistons, Cleveland had proved that they were at least in that same ballpark as a team. You can win a game against a superior team, but it’s hard to win an entire series unless you’re almost evenly matched. In this case, we have to think that Cleveland was at least somewhere close to San Antonio's level. They beat a team that took the Spurs to seven, so they should’ve done similarly well. Instead they were swept. Therefore, we have to place some requisite blame on LeBron.

The other question mark here concerns LeBron’s teammates. Offensively, yes, they failed him, but defensively the Cavs actually did better than they reasonably could’ve hoped. San Antonio averaged 98.5 points per game in the regular season, but Cleveland held them to 86.5 in the Finals. With that kind of defense, I think winning at least one or two games is a fair expectation, but LeBron didn’t deliver on offense. He shot only 36 percent in the series as a whole, far below his regular season figure of 48 percent. So basically, LeBron couldn’t have won this series, but he should’ve played better than he did.

[LAZERUSS]

2011:

[QUOTE]Primary defender: Shawn Marion

Secondary Defenders: Deshawn Stevenson, Jason Kidd, J.J. Barea

Primary Rim Protector: Tyson Chandler

Game 1: 24 points, 9-of-16 shooting (56.3%), 5 assists, 9 rebounds. Heat win 92-84.

This is the oft-forgotten game of LeBron

[LAZERUSS]

2001 continued...

[QUOTE]Game 6: 21 points, 9-of-15 shooting (60%), 6 assists, 8 assists. Mavericks win 105-95.

If you look at the raw stat line, LeBron actually played fairly well in this one. But look closer and a pattern starts to emerge. Once again, even if his numbers look decent, it

[SouBeachTalents]

Do you really not think we know what happened in LeBron's Finals? They all just happened recently and are discussed on this forum every single day

[LAZERUSS]

2012.

Finally. A great Finals, and he was clutch throughout.

2013:

[QUOTE]Primary Defender: Kawhi Leonard

Secondary Defenders: Boris Diaw, Manu Ginobili, Danny Green

Primary Rim Protector: Tim Duncan

Game 1: 18 points, 7-of-16 shooting (43.8%), 10 assists, 18 rebounds. Spurs win 92-88.

This is one of the all-time misleading great games. Yes, on paper 18-10-18 is phenomenal, but it undercut all of the growth we saw from LeBron in 2012. We solved the whole dueling banjos thing pretty definitively against Boston, but Wade somehow saw Game 1 as the opportunity to revert his team back to the mess of 2011? Seriously? And LeBron let him? They finished the game with nearly identical scoring lines. LeBron went 7-of-16, Wade went 7-of-15, LeBron shot four free throws, Wade shot four free throws, and even if LeBron was the one holding the ball at the end, it was very stretchy in that most of their shots came in individual clusters.

[B]More importantly, San Antonio came into this series with a very specific directive: they were never going to double team LeBron. Whether it was Kawhi Leonard or someone else, they were not going to let Miami

[LAZERUSS]

Do you really not think we know what happened in LeBron's Finals? They all just happened recently and are discussed on this forum every single day

YOU and I may know it, but reading these endless topics about how great Lebron is...all since Kyrie's Finals clinching shot, it seems that we really do need to put it all in perspective.

[LAZERUSS]

2013 Continued...

[QUOTE]Game 6: 32 points, 11-of-26 shooting (42.3%), 11 assists, 10 rebounds. Heat win 103-100.

image: http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/2013/06/19/01/36/JqwJf.Em.56.jpeg

LeBron James no headbandArguably the greatest game in NBA history. LeBron almost lost it, then almost won it, then almost lost it again, and then, finally, won it in overtime. He was horrible for most of the game. And then the headband came off.

There

[aj1987]

Do you really not think we know what happened in LeBron's Finals? They all just happened recently and are discussed on this forum every single day
:oldlol:

That ****ing idiot hasn't seen a SINGLE game of LeBron's. Yet, continues to post irrelevant BS, without any context, all the while stanning one of the greatest chokers the game has ever seen.

[BigKAT]

This is almost like the Republicans vs the Democrats, isn't it?

Each trying to earn the 'Swing users'.

Best of luck with your agenda.

[LAZERUSS]

2014:

No need to rehash it.

He didn't put up anything when needed, and his final stats were completely meaningless, in the WORST beatdown ever administered in the Finals.

The two most memorable moments of the 2014 Finals?

Lebron being carried off the court with menstrual cramps in a white-flag waving first game.

And Kawhi Leonard, whose assignment was Lebron...hoisting the FMVP Trophy.

[LAZERUSS]

2015:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/06/lebron-james-had-the-worst-awesome-performance-in-nba-finals-history

[QUOTE]

2. YET THE MAN TASKED WITH DEFENDING HIM FOR MOST OF THE SERIES WON THE FINALS MVP AWARD.

That

[LAZERUSS]

2016:

No question that Lebron's play in the last three games of the '16 Finals was incredible.

But again...perspective.

In the first four games he was basically a bystander, putting up meaningless stats. The best example of that was in the last 46 seconds of game four. Down by nine, and obviously needing trey's, he instead opted for uncontested layups on three straight possessions, which, of course, each of which were followed by fouls on ChoKurry. So, he was trading laups for FTs. Those six points look "clutch", right. Six points in the last 46 seconds. Until you realize that they were meaningless.

Then, in the last three games of the series, the league suspended Draymond Green for basically waving his leg at the most famous "flopper" in NBA history. In game six, the "Lebron Stopper" Iggy, injures his back, and is just a shell. The Warriors main rim protector, Bogut, misses games six and seven. ChoKurry puts up one of the worst game seven's in NBA history...especially down the stretch.

LeChoke goes 0-4 from the field in the last four minutes of game seven. And Kyrie nails the game-winning three (of course...over ChoKurry.)

There you have it.

Lebron was basically a two shots away from "1-7." Ray Allen in game six of the '13 Finals, and Kyrie Irving's game seven game-winner in '16.

[Hey Yo]

Magic is THE GOAT winner..period. Highest W-L percentage in NBA history. FIVE rings in NINE Finals. SHOULD have won FOUR FMVP's (robbed in '88.)
Hypothetic speculation



And had he not been injured in the last half of '81, and had to play a best-of-three in the first round, he likely would have won another ring.
Speculation, no facts. How about when 1 seeds back then got a bye in the first round.....got to rest up and heal.


Then, had he AND Byron Scott not missed all but ONE Finals game in '89, likely yet ANOTHER ring.
More speculation, no facts.


Oh, and then 1984. Granted Magic blew ONE game, with a missed FT down the stretch, (as did Worthy in the same game BTW), but he was also a Worthy bone-head pass away from SWEEPING the Celtics. And all "Tragic" could do was average 18 ppg, and team leading 8 rpg, 14 apg, and shoot .560 from the floor in that series. Think about that...Magic won FIVE rings, and could easily have won EIGHT!
But he didn't. More could've would've bullshit


And before someone mentions KAJ...the year after he retired, Magic led LA to a 61-17 record, and followed that up with a 58-24 record and a trip to the Finals in his last season

That's because he had a superteam. He had one his entire career in a proven shitty division and conference that played ZERO defense.


BTW, in the games Kareem missed in the 10 years that he and Magic played together...Magic's teams went 24-8, including 1-0 in the Finals (and a clinching Finals win it was BTW.)
Wilkes' 37pts and 10 boards made up for much of what KAJ would have brought. Magic past Wilkes as high scorer due to him getting FTA's at the end of the game


Magic made his teammates MUCH better. The same can't be said for Lebron, though.
Opinion, no facts.


And while we have SEVERAL Lebron "flop jobs" in his post-season career, you would be hard-pressed to find more than a couple for Magic.
Defense wasn't played back then so there was no need to exaggerate contact. Ref's would have never bought it.

[egokiller]

2016 might be getting over hyped because of the overrated gimmicky opponent, with inflated regular season record due to weak league. And people underrate Kyrie's contributions. They were lucky Green was suspended (though he brought it on himself) ... And it was really 2 games where LeBron was actually great. And in one of them, game 5, Kyrie's scoring exhibition on a larger, quality defender was visibly more impressive. All things considering it's overrated performance individually, but it was still very impressive.

As was his 2015 considering he had no help.

Either way you cut it, he's better than Wilt. Ranking his Finals individually, not just team success:

1) '16 - Great
2) '12 - Good
3) '15 - Good
4) '13 - Decent
5) '14 - Average (numbers lie here)
6) '07 - Bad
7) '11 - Pitiful

You touched on some good points bolded above. I will also add that Iggy's back was messed up and Curry was put in to early foul trouble each game. The Cavs 2016 win over GSW is about as impressive as GSW's win over Cavs in 2015.

Can you post your ratings then for Wilt's finals so that we may see how they compare to Lebron's? Also what does Wilt have to do with the topic of Lebron's finals? Why not chose Magic, or Bird or KAJ? Why Wilt?

[LAZERUSS]

You touched on some good points bolded above. I will also add that Iggy's back was messed up and Curry was put in to early foul trouble each game. The Cavs 2016 win over GSW is about as impressive as GSW's win over Cavs in 2015.

Can you post your ratings then for Wilt's finals so that we may see how they compare to Lebron's? Also what does Wilt have to do with the topic of Lebron's finals? Why not chose Magic, or Bird or KAJ? Why Wilt?

Finals?

How about this...


As for "choker"...

even if we were to take his playoff stats at face value (and not using CONTEXT)... a CAREER 23-25 player, who outshot the post-season NBA by nearly ten percentage points above the league average.

Of course, using CONTEXT, and they suddenly become GOAT-like.

For instance,... gotta love the "30 ppg RS, 18 (actually 19 BTW) PO" Wilt.

How about this?

What's the difference between Wilt's post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, '68, and his post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '64 and '69?

NONE. Those H2H's basically decided the NBA championship. Plain-and-simple. BUT, in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, and '68...they were the EDF's. And NOT the Finals.

What were Wilt's numbers in those EDF's? 22-25-7; 22-32-10 .556; 28-30 .509; 30-31 .555; and 34-27.

Compare that with Lebron's seven trips to the Finals. Give me a list of a great Eastern team that James beat en route to the Finals. NONE. The ONE team that was great, the '08 Celtics... held Lebron to .355 shooting...and that came in ECSF's.

Not only that, but how take a look at Russell's Finals in his career. SIX of them came against the Lakers. Throw out the '69 Finals, when he faced Wilt, and did nothing offensively...and he was putting up Finals of 23-27-6 on .543 FG%; 20-26-5 on .467; 18-25-6 on get this... a .702 FG%; 24-24-4 .538; and 17-22-6 on .430. That's a combined average of 21-25-5 on a .515 FG%.

Now, how many times did Wilt face those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's? NONE. And how did Wilt fare against those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's... 86 H2H's, and 42 games of 40+, including 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even 2 of 70+!

Prior to 1969, Chamberlain played exactly ONE playoff series against a Western Division team. How did he do? 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .560 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .420.)

Think about that. Had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his prime, he likely would have been going to the Finals nearly every year, and probably hanging 40+ ppg playoff series in several of them.

Furthermore, how about Shaq's Finals? In his wins... against a washed-up Smits in his last season; a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was allowed to bloody to a pulp by some of the worst Finals officiating in NBA history..only the '06 debacle was worse); a career 6 ppg stumblebum in MacCoulloch; and the career bust Dampier. Had a PRIME Chamberlain faced those inept clods, and who knows how many Finals scoring, rebounding, and efficiency records Wilt would hold today.

CONTEXT.

[aj1987]

You touched on some good points bolded above. I will also add that Iggy's back was messed up and Curry was put in to early foul trouble each game. The Cavs 2016 win over GSW is about as impressive as GSW's win over Cavs in 2015.
Love, Irving, and Shump were injured as well. Love actually missed a game due to his injury and was limited after that. Lets not act like the Cavs were 100% healthy and only GsW players were injured.

Also, IIRC, Curry had 2 fouls going into the 4th Q of game 5 and only 2 fouls in G5. The only game he was in foul trouble was G6.


Can you post your ratings then for Wilt's finals so that we may see how they compare to Lebron's? Also what does Wilt have to do with the topic of Lebron's finals? Why not chose Magic, or Bird or KAJ? Why Wilt?
Dude was an atrocious PO preferment and a statpadding mental midget. GOAT level choker.

511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18
Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

[RRR3]

OP seems shook. Scared LeBron will surpass Wilt?

[LAZERUSS]

Love, Irving, and Shump were injured as well. Love actually missed a game due to his injury and was limited after that. Lets not act like the Cavs were 100% healthy and only GsW players were injured.

Also, IIRC, Curry had 2 fouls going into the 4th Q of game 5 and only 2 fouls in G5. The only game he was in foul trouble was G6.


Dude was an atrocious PO preferment and a statpadding mental midget. GOAT level choker.

511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18
Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

LeChoke..

His Finals FLOP jobs have been documented here. Not to mention his several playoff QUIT jobs. The man is a proven quitter who needed Allen and Kyrie's heroics to win two of his rings.

[aj1987]

LeChoke..

His Finals FLOP jobs have been documented here. Not to mention his several playoff QUIT jobs. The man is a proven quitter who needed Allen and Kyrie's heroics to win two of his rings.
1969 NBA Finals. That's all that needs to be said.


OP seems shook. Scared LeBron will surpass Wilt?
Bruh, LeBron surpassed Chokerlain years ago. LeBron is in a completely different league.

[LAZERUSS]

OP seems shook. Scared LeBron will surpass Wilt?

Just reminding the board of Lebron's ACTUAL career.

SOME here seem to think his last three games of the '16 Finals elevated him to GOAT status.

The man has a HISTORY of post-season FLOP and QUIT jobs.


As for surpassing Wilt? Get back to me when he approaches the HUNDREDS (actually THOUSANDS) of Regular season AND Post-season RECORDS that Chamberlain owns.

[LAZERUSS]

1969 NBA Finals. That's all that needs to be said.

2007, 2011, 2014, 2015. All that needs to be said.

Not to mention QUITTING on his team in the 2010 playoffs.

Of course, he basically QUIT in game one of the '14 Finals...with menstrual cramps.

:cheers:

[Megabox!]

Just reminding the board of Lebron's ACTUAL career.

SOME here seem to think his last three games of the '16 Finals elevated him to GOAT status.

The man has a HISTORY of post-season FLOP and QUIT jobs.


As for surpassing Wilt? Get back to me when he approaches the HUNDREDS (actually THOUSANDS) of Regular season AND Post-season RECORDS that Chamberlain owns.
And he still couldn't get it done when it matters the most. The Ultimate Irony: a Wilt stan calling someone else a finals choker. Guy goes from putting up 50pt games in the regular season like it's nothing to barely scoring over 17 when his team needed him the most :lol

[aj1987]

2007, 2011, 2014, 2015. All that needs to be said.

Not to mention QUITTING on his team in the 2010 playoffs.

Of course, he basically QUIT in game one of the '14 Finals...with menstrual cramps.

:cheers:
8th leading scorer. 12 PPG and 38% from the FT line. Those 4 finals? LeBron averaged like 27 PPG. West averaged 38/5/7 and the mental midget still managed to choke the series away.

Thanks for playing though.

[LAZERUSS]

And he still couldn't get it done when it matters the most. The Ultimate Irony: a Wilt stan calling someone else a finals choker. Guy goes from putting up 50pt games in the regular season like it's nothing to barely scoring over 17 when his team needed him the most :lol

Hmmm...

Doesn't quite add up...


In his 23 "do-or-die" playoff games...

Quote:
12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points (including the ONLY THREE by a GOAT candidate)

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

In his 37 must win and series clinching playoff games...

Quote:
W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

Included in those "must win" or "series clinching" games...

games of 40, 45, 46, 50, 53, and 56 points.


Nor does that take into account his defensive impact, either. For instance, he held a Bellamy who had shot .541 against the league, to a .421 FG% in their '68 playoff H2H. And an old Wilt held a peak Kareem to two consecutive playoff series of .481 and .457 shooting, in seasons in which Kareem shot .577 and .574 against the rest of the league. Oh, and in their two series clinching games, Wilt outshot Kareem, .545 (18-33) to .383 (23-60.)

Incidently, the recaps of their '71 and '72 playoff H2H's give Wilt a decided edge, In fact, Time Magazine went so far as to claim that Wilt decisively outplayed Kareem in their 72 WCF's.



Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

[Big164]

LeChoke has just as many finals losses as Wilt i dunno what ur celebrating about. At least Chambberlain is GOAT regular season performer. Lechoke isnt GOAT at either one.

[lilteapot]

LeChoke has just as many finals losses as Wilt i dunno what ur celebrating about. At least Chambberlain is GOAT regular season performer. Lechoke isnt GOAT at either one.

Because Lebron has more Finals MVPs than Wilt, nincompoop.

[RRR3]

Calling LeBron a choker after the 16 finals is absurd. Like Wilt ever had a finals that epic :lol

[Megabox!]

Because Lebron has more Finals MVPs than Wilt, nincompoop.
And a extra NBA championship ring

[Big164]

Calling LeBron a choker after the 16 finals is absurd. Like Wilt ever had a finals that epic :lol
Every WIlt ring came off the heels of a 68+ win season. Something Lechoke has never done.

Lebron getting Draymond suspended to cheat his way to a title does not count.

[aj1987]

Every WIlt ring came off the heels of a 68+ win season. Something Lechoke has never done.

Lebron getting Draymond suspended to cheat his way to a title does not count.
What's with this Ilt stanning schtick, warriorfag?

[Mr Feeny]

I don't think this is even clever enough to constitute trolling.
Lebron became the only man in history to lead both teams in every category. Any you slice it,it's comfortably better than any non-Jordan/peakshaq final.

Ilt and Kobe stans talking smack about arguably the greatest finals performance in history is nothing short of hillarious :oldlol:
Both their idols are the ultimate chokers on the big stage:applause:

[egokiller]

The problem when you compare wilt to Lebron is that Lebron's legacy is tarnished, and Wilt's isn't. What other top 10 player has choked harder than Lebron in 2011?

[aj1987]

The problem when you compare wilt to Lebron is that Lebron's legacy is tarnished, and Wilt's isn't. What other top 10 player has choked harder than Lebron in 2011?
Kobe in pretty much all his Finals. Ilt in '69.

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe in pretty much all his Finals. Ilt in '69.

Oh my goodness! The king of ish slays the Ilt lovers again!:lol

[KirbyPls]

The problem when you compare wilt to Lebron is that Lebron's legacy is tarnished, and Wilt's isn't. What other top 10 player has choked harder than Lebron in 2011?

When you average 18ppg in the Finals, do you even have a legacy?

[LAZERUSS]

When you average 18ppg in the Finals, do you even have a legacy?

18 ppg in his Finals?


Because the evidence is so overwhelming. You could write BOOKS on Chamberlain's dominance in BOTH the regular season AND the post-season.

As for "choker"...

even if we were to take his playoff stats at face value (and not using CONTEXT)... a CAREER 23-25 player, who outshot the post-season NBA by nearly ten percentage points above the league average.

Of course, using CONTEXT, and they suddenly become GOAT-like.

For instance,... gotta love the "30 ppg RS, 18 (actually 19 BTW) PO" Wilt.

How about this?

What's the difference between Wilt's post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, '68, and his post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '64 and '69?

NONE. Those H2H's basically decided the NBA championship. Plain-and-simple. BUT, in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, and '68...they were the EDF's. And NOT the Finals.

What were Wilt's numbers in those EDF's? 22-25-7; 22-32-10 .556; 28-30 .509; 30-31 .555; and 34-27.

Compare that with Lebron's seven trips to the Finals. Give me a list of a great Eastern team that James beat en route to the Finals. NONE. The ONE team that was great, the '08 Celtics... held Lebron to .355 shooting...and that came in ECSF's.

Not only that, but how take a look at Russell's Finals in his career. SIX of them came against the Lakers. Throw out the '69 Finals, when he faced Wilt, and did nothing offensively...and he was putting up Finals of 23-27-6 on .543 FG%; 20-26-5 on .467; 18-25-6 on get this... a .702 FG%; 24-24-4 .538; and 17-22-6 on .430. That's a combined average of 21-25-5 on a .515 FG%.

Now, how many times did Wilt face those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's? NONE. And how did Wilt fare against those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's... 86 H2H's, and 42 games of 40+, including 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even 2 of 70+!

Prior to 1969, Chamberlain played exactly ONE playoff series against a Western Division team. How did he do? 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .560 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .420.)

Think about that. Had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his prime, he likely would have been going to the Finals nearly every year, and probably hanging 40+ ppg playoff series in several of them.

Furthermore, how about Shaq's Finals? In his wins... against a washed-up Smits in his last season; a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was allowed to bloody to a pulp by some of the worst Finals officiating in NBA history..only the '06 debacle was worse); a career 6 ppg stumblebum in MacCoulloch; and the career bust Dampier. Had a PRIME Chamberlain faced those inept clods, and who knows how many Finals scoring, rebounding, and efficiency records Wilt would hold today.

CONTEXT.

[LAZERUSS]

When you average 18ppg in the Finals, do you even have a legacy?

Well, how about Lebron's "legacy?"


Lebron in the '07 Finals. In a Finals in which he averaged 6 ppg less than his regular season ppg (using the same rounding methods used against Wilt)...and on a .356 FG%...in a season in which he shot .476.

Oh, and then in the clinching (and sweeping) game four one point loss...LeChoke shot 10-30 from the field, and 2-6 from the line.


How about the '11 Finals? Scored TEN PPG less than his regular season average (again, using the "Wilt" method of rounding.) Watched passively the entire series while a declining Wade couldn't cut the mustard/ Hell, Wade even yelled at the timid one in a critical game of the series. Then this physical specimen was SHUT DOWN by the 5-10 JJ Barea in the most critical moments of the series, as well.

How about the '13 Finals. Was a bystander in game six until the 4th quarter. Then comitted numerous turnovers in the waning minutes, and with his team down 3, he launched a wild trey that looked like a drunken Stevie Wonder throwing a bowling ball in a wind-tunnel. Fortunately for LeChoke...Ray Allen hit the most critical shot of the series...or LeFlop would have been "1-5."

How about the '15 Finals. In a season in which he shot .488...he couldn't do ANYTHING against the one-on-one defense of a role player off the Warrior bench, and ended up shooting .398. In his biggest game of the series, a winnable game six...he shot-jacked his way to 13-33 shooting. Then he meekly handed the FMVP to that same bench-player. An NBA first...two MVPs, in their primes...watching as a role player held up the FMVP trophy.

Even the '16 Finals. In the last four minutes of game seven...and as always...LeChoke came up empty. 0-4 from the floor, and just awful. And again, a TEAMMATE stepped up...and Kyrie hit the series winning shot.


Oh, and we can't forget Lebron QUITTING on his team in the 2010 playoffs, and even his own ownder acknowledged that LeChoke quit on his team in the 2009 playoffs.

Court Jester's most memorable moment oh his choking playoff career...being carted off after basically mailing in the series in game one of the '14 Finals...in the most one-sided beatdown ever administered in NBA Finals history...with...yep...MENSTRUAL CRAMPS.

There you go.

[KirbyPls]

Well, how about Lebron's "legacy?"



There you go.

29 > 18. :lol

[KirbyPls]

Well, how about Lebron's "legacy?"



There you go.

3 > 2

[LAZERUSS]

3 > 2

Oh...so you DO have Kobe over Lebron then, right. 5 > 3 (and 5/7 over 3/7.)

Duncan... 5 > 3

Hondo... 8 > 3 (and 8-0 in the Finals unlike LeChokes 3-4).)

Russell... 11 > 3.

Magic 5 > 3

MJ 6 > 3.

KAJ 6 > 3.

[KirbyPls]

Oh...so you DO have Kobe over Lebron then, right. 5 > 3.

Duncan... 5 > 3

Hondo... 8 > 3 (and 8-0 in the Finals unlike LeChokes 3-4).)

Russell... 11 > 3.

Magic 5 > 3

MJ 6 > 3.

KAJ 6 > 3.

All I know is that Lebron is a better playoffs and Finals performer than Wilt. :cheers:

[tpols]

Wilt faced legit competition. Stacked paints. Lebron has to run to the league office to remove the bad guys for him.

[Megabox!]

Wilt faced legit competition. Stacked paints. Lebron has to run to the league office to remove the bad guys for him.
Kobe stans are more hurt about the 2016 finals than actual Warrior fans are......that's pretty sad

[LAZERUSS]

All I know is that Lebron is a better playoffs and Finals performer than Wilt. :cheers:


Sorry... but NO. Just NO.


Gotta love the Ajackoffs of this site. CONTEXT. He has no clue what that means.

Scoring? How about post-season runs of 28, 29, 33, 35, 35, and 37 ppg? How about post-season series of 37, 37, 39, and 39 ppg? How about post-season series of 28-30, 29-28, 30-31, 31-27, and 34-27 against RUSSELL? How about 13 playoff games of 40+...11 of which came in his 52 playoff games in his "scoring" seasons (21% for those keeping track.) How about MUST WIN games of 45-27 (Finals BTW), 46-34 (against RUSSELL BTW), 50-22, 50-35 (against RUSSELL BTW), and even a 56-35-12 game? As well as another 50 point game in the '64 WDF's. Or series clinching games of 30-32, 30-26, 38-26, and 39-26-10?

How about his MUST WIN playoff games? In his 23 must win playoff games...

31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-seasons that shot .435 in the same span.)

How about his 37 MUST WIN, and SERIES CLINCHING playoff games?

29.5 ppg, 26.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, and on a .546 FG% (again, in post-seasons that shot .435 in that span...or nearly TWELVE percentage points above the league average.)


Rebounding? Simply...the GOAT post-season rebounder in NBA history. Yes, Russell had a slightly higher average... 24.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg...BUT, in their eight playoff series H2H's, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in EVERY one of them. Including margins of 5, 6, and even 9 rpg! Oh, Chamberlain is also the all-time FINALS leading rebounder with a career average of 24.6 rpg.

He played in 13 post-seasons, and his LOW was 20.2 rpg. He also had post-seasons of 28, 29, and even 30 rpg. And he had series of 30 and 31 rpg (both against RUSSELL BTW.) In his LAST post-season, at age 36, and covering 17 games... 22.5 rpg, in a post-season that averaged 50.6 rpg per team (just this last season the NBA averaged 42.0 rpg.) That translates to 19 rpg in the '16 playoffs. In his LAST season.

He played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of them. He was outrebounded by PF Jerry Lucas in ONE...and by a 21.0 to 20.0 rpg margin/ However, when the two faced each other as CENTERS, a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg, outrebounded the 31 year old Lacas, playing 46 mpg, by a 23.2 rpg to 9.8 rpg margin.

Wilt was outrebounding Reed by 14 rpg, Thurmond by 7 rpg, and Russell by 9 rpg.


Playoff RECORDS? Surely this "declining" Wilt would not have any post-season records, right? How about, and by far, the most 20-20 games, the most 30-20 games, the most 20-30 games, the most 30-30 games, the most 40-20 games, the most 40-30 games, the most 50-20 games, and the most 50-30 games? How about the most post-seasons of 20-20, 30-20, 30-25, 35-20?


Blocked shots? Tim Duncan just retired with the "official" post-season blocked shot record of 568 in his 251 playoff games. Well nbastats.net contributor, Julizaver found blocked shot data for 81 of Wilt's 160 post-season games...or roughly half (and almost all of it from the mid-60's on)...and... 590 blocked shots...in 81 games! Hell, an old Wilt blocked 33 shots in his '72 WCF's in the four known games of that series, and 15 of those were on KAJ!

Defense? Wilt held Russell to playoff series FG%'s of .399, .397, .386, and .358 (in a season in which Russell shot .454 against the NBA.) He held Thurmond to playoff series of .392, .373, and .343 (a PEAK Nate BTW...and in a season in which Thurmond shot .437 against the NBA.) He held Bellamy to .450 in a season in which Bellamy shot .521 against the NBA, and then to .421 in a season in which Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA. Oh, can't forget Kareem, either. KAJ shot .577 and .574 against the NBA in '71 and '72. Against Wilt in those two post-seasons? .481 and .457 (including .414 in the last four games of that series.)

How about Wilt's FG% in his six Finals? .559...all while holding his opposing centers (all in the HOF BTW)...to a combined .439. Or how about his two game seven's of the Finals? He outshot Reed and Russell by a combined .708 to .333 margin (all while averaging 19.5 ppg and 25.5 rpg.)


Passing? Find me a CENTER who averaged 9.0 apg in an entire playoff run (which, BTW, led the post-season that year.) Or a center who had two straight triple-double series (28-27-11, and 22-32-10)?


Of course, had a PRIME Wilt faced the likes of a washed Smits, or a 35 year old Mutombo (whom Shaq was allowed to beat to a bloody pulp in some of the most disgraceful offciating in Finals history), or a never-was in the career 6 ppg scoring MacCulloch, or the complete bust in Eric Dampier... in his Finals...no doubt he would have been putting up 30-40-and 50 point playoff games against them.

GOAT.


As for "choker"...

even if we were to take his playoff stats at face value (and not using CONTEXT)... a CAREER 23-25 player, who outshot the post-season NBA by nearly ten percentage points above the league average.

Of course, using CONTEXT, and they suddenly become GOAT-like.

For instance,... gotta love the "30 ppg RS, 18 (actually 19 BTW) PO" Wilt.

How about this?

What's the difference between Wilt's post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, '68, and his post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '64 and '69?

NONE. Those H2H's basically decided the NBA championship. Plain-and-simple. BUT, in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, and '68...they were the EDF's. And NOT the Finals.

What were Wilt's numbers in those EDF's? 22-25-7; 22-32-10 .556; 28-30 .509; 30-31 .555; and 34-27.

Compare that with Lebron's seven trips to the Finals. Give me a list of a great Eastern team that James beat en route to the Finals. NONE. The ONE team that was great, the '08 Celtics... held Lebron to .355 shooting...and that came in ECSF's.

Not only that, but how take a look at Russell's Finals in his career. SIX of them came against the Lakers. Throw out the '69 Finals, when he faced Wilt, and did nothing offensively...and he was putting up Finals of 23-27-6 on .543 FG%; 20-26-5 on .467; 18-25-6 on get this... a .702 FG%; 24-24-4 .538; and 17-22-6 on .430. That's a combined average of 21-25-5 on a .515 FG%.

Now, how many times did Wilt face those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's? NONE. And how did Wilt fare against those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's... 86 H2H's, and 42 games of 40+, including 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even 2 of 70+!

Prior to 1969, Chamberlain played exactly ONE playoff series against a Western Division team. How did he do? 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .560 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .420.)

Think about that. Had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his prime, he likely would have been going to the Finals nearly every year, and probably hanging 40+ ppg playoff series in several of them.

Furthermore, how about Shaq's Finals? In his wins... against a washed-up Smits in his last season; a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was allowed to bloody to a pulp by some of the worst Finals officiating in NBA history..only the '06 debacle was worse); a career 6 ppg stumblebum in MacCoulloch; and the career bust Dampier. Had a PRIME Chamberlain faced those inept clods, and who knows how many Finals scoring, rebounding, and efficiency records Wilt would hold today.

CONTEXT.

[Mr Feeny]

I'm sorry but can someone verify these?


.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

AJ posted these but it seems impossible that anyone is this big of a choker?

[RRR3]

"LeChoke". Better elimination player than pretty much anyone. Pretty sure he's a better elimination game player than Wilt was too. :cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

"LeChoke". Better elimination player than pretty much anyone. Pretty sure he's a better elimination game player than Wilt was too. :cheers:

32.6 ppg to 31.1 ppg.

BUT, Chamberlain also averaged 26.4 rpg, and on a FG% that over 10 percentage points higher than the league average...

AND,

40% of Wilt's playoff games came after his knee surgery and when they finally started expanding the playoffs.

AND, LeBron has played his ENTIRE career in the POS East..where he would run into patsies for three rounds (again...how did he do against the '08 Celtics in the ECSF's?). A prime Wilt played his almost his entire career in the POWERFUL Eastern Conference...and when he moved west later in his career, where the power of the NBA also shifted. Kareem and his Bucks.

BTW, a SCORING Chamberlain averaged 37 ppg in his "must win" games.

[RRR3]

Powerhouses like the 38-41 Syracuse Nationals who swept Wilt and his Warriors in the 1961 playoffs?

[Mr Feeny]

32.6 ppg to 31.1 ppg.

BUT, Chamberlain also averaged 26.4 rpg, and on a FG% that over 10 percentage points higher than the league average...

AND,

40% of Wilt's playoff games came after his knee surgery and when they finally started expanding the playoffs.

AND, LeBron has played his ENTIRE career in the POS East..where he would run into patsies for three rounds (again...how did he do against the '08 Celtics in the ECSF's?). A prime Wilt played his almost his entire career in the POWERFUL Eastern Conference...and when he moved west later in his career, where the power of the NBA also shifted. Kareem and his Bucks.

BTW, a SCORING Chamberlain averaged 37 ppg in his "must win" games.

I'm sorry.

511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

Seeing as how you're a huge Wilt stan, do you mind verifying these? AJ sent them?
I told him that I didn't think it was possible for a player to be that much of a choker?are these real?

Many thanks

[LAZERUSS]

Powerhouses like the 38-41 Syracuse Nationals who swept Wilt and his Warriors in the 1961 playoffs?

And Chamberlain averaged 37-23 in that series.

How about running into the Celtics 8 times, and in either the first or second round in six of those?

Or the HOF-laden Knicks in three playoff series or Finals, two of which came after his knee surgery?

Or how about KAJ's peak Bucks in '71 and '72, and both after his knee surgery...and in series in which he outplayed a peak Kareem?

How about Nate Thurmond in three playoff series? You know...the Thurmond who held a peak KAJ to three straight series of .486, .428, and .405 (and outscored and outshot him in that one)?

Wilt faced a HOF center in two-thirds of his playoff career; a Dynasty in one-third; and the eventual champion in TEN of his 13 playoff seasons (and then WON TWO, as well.)

[Mr Feeny]

AJ was right. Ilt is an 18 ppg 37%FT scorer when it counts :(

:biggums:

[LAZERUSS]

:biggums:


I'm sorry, but what are doing here posting any more?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...5&postcount=91


You lost a stupid bet, and vowed to never show your ass on this forum again.

What happened?

Oh, and how about "switching horses in mid-stream" as well?

[Mr Feeny]

I' have been thoroughly embarassed by aj?


511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

With this?:eek:

[LAZERUSS]

511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

With this?:eek:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12569802&postcount=85

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Mr Feeny]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12569802&postcount=85

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Sorry folks but a certain Kobe and Wilt stan is avoiding this like the plague:

511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5
:(

[tpols]

has feeny turned into the worst troll on this forum .. ? geez

[aj1987]

Powerhouses like the 38-41 Syracuse Nationals who swept Wilt and his Warriors in the 1961 playoffs?
:roll: :roll:

That ****ing idiot tries to act like no one can verify his posts, but a simple BB-Ref will do. Dude's a cherrypicking ****** loser, just like his idol.

Lozerus, no matter how much you try, you can't change FACTS. The mental midget was a statpadding career loser, and claimed that he didn't give a shit about winning.

[Mr Feeny]

:roll: :roll:

That ****ing idiot tries to act like no one can verify his posts, but a simple BB-Ref will do. Dude's a cherrypicking ****** loser, just like his idol.

Lozerus, no matter how much you try, you can't change FACTS. The mental midget was a statpadding career loser, and claimed that he didn't give a shit about winning.

Savage :lol