Here's the ABSOLUTE foolproof formula to determine who's a superstar

[Dray n Klay]

There's been a lot of talk the last few days about "X player is a superstar" or "X player is not a superstar". Basically a lot of discussion regarding the issue.


I'm LOL'ing at the IQ of some of the posters here. Is it that HARD to figure out who the superstars are? Its a pretty simple formula. :oldlol:



Since most of you are still struggling to figure this out, I'll lay the fool-proof metric here (even knicksman would be able to use this).


Rule 1


Player must play at least 30+ minutes a game I think everyone would agree with this rule. This means the player is a significant contributor to the team. A fairly standard rule.



Rule 2

Player must have a PER of 25.0 or higher. This is another formula that is fool-proof. Henry Abbott, Chad Ford all agree with this. 20 PER means a great player/star. 25 PER means superstar. 30 PER means all-time season.




Rule 3


The player must shoot at least 46.0% from the field. This separates the Chris Pauls from the Stephan Marburys of the world. Basically you don't get rewarded for shooting your team in the foot with your inefficient shooting. This rewards players for player high-IQ superstar impact basketball while helping your team win games and not ruining the offense.





Lets compute these 3 simple rules, and see who the superstars were from 2003-2016




Superstars according to this rule

2003


T-Mac
Shaq
Duncan
Garnett
Dirk



2004

Garnett
Duncan
T-Mac


2005

Garnett
Duncan
Shaq
Amare
Dirk
LeBron




2006

Dirk
LeBron
Wade
Garnett
Elton Brand


2007


Dirk
Duncan
LeBron
Kobe



2008

LeBron
Chris Paul
Amare
Garnett
Dirk


2009

LeBron
Wade
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard


2010

LeBron
Wade
Durant
Duncan


2011

LeBron
Dwight
Wade


2012

LeBron
Chris Paul
Wade
Durant



2013

LeBron
Durant
Chris Paul



2014

Durant
LeBron
Anthony Davis
Demarcus Cousins
Chris Paul


2015
Anthony Davis
Curry
Chris Paul
LeBron


2016

Steph Curry
Durant
LeBron
Chris Paul
Kawhi Leonard






There ya' go fellas. No need to argue anymore whether "so and so" was a superstar. I just laid out a formula. Use this as future reference.

[RRR3]

Chris Bosh, Elton Brand, DeMarcus Cousins, and Terrell Brandon :bowdown:


Superstars lol

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron had a superstar teammate his first two seasons in Miami, yet only came away with 1 title?

[RRR3]

I like how OP left out Love and Bosh :oldlol:


*Not sure if Love meets the arbitrary 46% requirement

[FreezingTsmoove]

You forgot to add 07 Kobe to the list

[Dray n Klay]

You forgot to add 07 Kobe to the list

Are you blind bro? :oldlol:

[Dray n Klay]

LeBron had a superstar teammate his first two seasons in Miami, yet only came away with 1 title?


https://youtu.be/qizaRhIo_oQ?t=230

[RRR3]

LeBron had a superstar teammate his first two seasons in Miami, yet only came away with 1 title?
Whiteside will make this list next year, most likely :oldlol:

He was .9 MPG short

[FreezingTsmoove]

Are you blind bro? :oldlol:

Nice edit

You think I of all people would notice no Kobe?

L

[RRR3]

Add Bosh to 2009-10 :no:

[Dray n Klay]

Add Bosh to 2009-10 :no:

He didnt make the minimum requirements according to the PER stat, so he isnt included in the PER calculations.


I would LOVE to have Bosh on the 'superstar' list, but sadly statistically he doesn't make the cut.

[Young X]

Durant 2012.

[RRR3]

He didnt make the minimum requirements according to the PER stat, so he isnt included in the PER calculations.


I would LOVE to have Bosh on the 'superstar' list, but sadly statistically he doesn't make the cut.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

25.0 PER in 2009-10 wtf are you talking about

[Dray n Klay]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

25.0 PER in 2009-10 wtf are you talking about


Take it up with the PER guys, not me :confusedshrug:


I'm just the messenger

[FreezingTsmoove]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

25.0 PER in 2009-10 wtf are you talking about

Dray getting bullied in a thread for the 3rd time in 2 days :(

Add him to the list lil boy

[tpols]

lots of arbitrary benchmarking ... piss off.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Dray add 2010 Bosh to the list right now.

You had no problem adding 07 Kobe when I MADE you do it

[Dray n Klay]

This objective list undermines my favorite player, so I'll choose to ignore it.




Hey, not my fault you choose subjectivity over facts

[Trollsmasher]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

25.0 PER in 2009-10 wtf are you talking about
rounded up from 24.96

PM me for exact stats from that season

[RRR3]

The more I read the OP, the worse it gets. T-Mac is my favorite player ever, I know for a fact he shot 45.7%, and 41.7% in 2002-03 and 2003-04, respectively. Neither meet OP's arbitrary 46.0% cut-off.

[Dray n Klay]

Dray add 2010 Bosh to the list right now.

You had no problem adding 07 Kobe when I MADE you do it

I'm just following the formula, don't get mad :confusedshrug:


I already explained why he didn't make the cut

[Dray n Klay]

Tpols is so MAD at this ranking because for some reason he doesn't agree that superstars should play > 30 minutes a night :oldlol:


I think everyone agrees that superstars play more than 30 minutes a night :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

Also Harden didn't shoot 46% or higher in 2015. How much are you going to make up? :oldlol:

[FreezingTsmoove]

I'm just following the formula, don't get mad :confusedshrug:


I already explained why he didn't make the cut

Everywhere on the internet shows Bosh had a 25 PER

Now you change that list little boy like I made you do earlier or we are going to have some problems

Now be a good boy 🐶

[Dray n Klay]

:cry: :( This list doesn't agree with my favourite player, so I'll beg OP to make an exception.


Doesn't work like that, little boy

[FreezingTsmoove]

Dray TAKE HARDEN OFF THE LIST NOW.

[Dray n Klay]

Also Harden didn't shoot 46% or higher in 2015. How much are you going to make up? :oldlol:


Thanks for pointing it out, I'll fix it now :cheers:

[FreezingTsmoove]

Doesn't work like that, little boy

Dray take Harden off the list or were going to have problems

[RRR3]

Another thing. Yao and Brook Lopez make this list since you didn't make a minimum games requirement.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Good boy Dray 🐶

[Dray n Klay]

Another thing. Yao and Brook Lopez make this list since you didn't make a minimum games requirement.

No, because PER itself has a minimum games requirement :facepalm


When you look at a PER list, they have a * next to those people who didnt meet the minimum games requirement



You can't be this dense :facepalm




Why would I make a minimum games requirement, when PER already does that for me??

[RRR3]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2003&year_max=2016&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=mp_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=30&c2stat=per&c2comp=gt&c2val=25&c3stat=fg_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=.46&c6mult=1.0&order_by=ws

[RRR3]

No, because PER itself has a minimum games requirement :facepalm


When you look at a PER list, they have a * next to those people who didnt meet the minimum games requirement



You can't be this dense :facepalm




Why would I make a minimum games requirement, when PER already does that for me??
Yao played 57 games in 2005-06 for ****'s sake.

[Dray n Klay]

Yao played 57 games in 2005-06 for ****'s sake.

Again, don't take it up with me, take it up with the PER guys :confusedshrug:

[FreezingTsmoove]

No, because PER itself has a minimum games requirement :facepalm


When you look at a PER list, they have a * next to those people who didnt meet the minimum games requirement



You can't be this dense :facepalm




Why would I make a minimum games requirement, when PER already does that for me??


Dray settle down there boy, ill let you know when I WANT you to make changes

[RRR3]

Again, don't take it up with me, take it up with the PER guys :confusedshrug:
Wade played 51 games in 2007, and you included him :roll:

[Lebronxrings]

some of these posts in this thread are terrible. OP actually made a good post and people are attacking him. :facepalm

[Dray n Klay]

Wade played 51 games in 2007, and you included him :roll:

Thanks for pointing that out, i'll remove him now :confusedshrug:

[FreezingTsmoove]

yes Dray keep making those edits boy

[Dray n Klay]

There RRR3, do you have any more things to cry about? :cry: :confusedshrug:

[aj1987]

Since you ignored it earlier:


https://youtu.be/qizaRhIo_oQ?t=230
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFe8KUEQdn4&spfreload=10

[BedroomBully]

Wait so Kobe only has one season of superstar status? Blasphemy! I demand a recount!

[Dray n Klay]

Wait so Kobe ink has one season of superstar status? Blasphemy! I demand a recount!

And he lost in the 1st round in his lone superstar season :oldlol: :banana:


1 superstar season in 20 years


1 MVP in 20 years




There's a reason he's 12be :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

You can't follow your own criteria. I'm not crying about anything. By your logic, T-Mac wasn't a superstar in 2003 and 2004, and Bosh was in 2010. That alone should tell you how stupid your "logic" is, which is probably why you refused to tell the truth in your OP.

[Dray n Klay]

You can't follow your own criteria. I'm not crying about anything. By your logic, T-Mac wasn't a superstar in 2003 and 2004, and Bosh was in 2010. That alone should tell you how stupid your "logic" is, which is probably why you refused to tell the truth in your OP.

Neither T-Mac nor Bosh made the cutoff, don't know whats the problem? :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

If we're going to ignore reality, LeBron had a -500 PER last year. Worst player ever.

[BedroomBully]

And he lost in the 1st round in his lone superstar season :oldlol: :banana:


1 superstar season in 20 years


1 MVP in 20 years




There's a reason he's 12be :confusedshrug:
No! Hell No! Surely a top 12 would have better production! But 5 rings tho! 81 point tho!

[BedroomBully]

If we're going to ignore reality, LeBron had a -500 PER last year. Worst player ever.
Lol think fckn retard is melting down so bad right now! Lol it's giving me a half chub knowing he's boiling from inside. :roll:

[aj1987]

If we're going to ignore reality, LeBron had a -500 PER last year. Worst player ever.
IMO, anyone who scored under 10 points in a Finals game during their PRIME should be exempt from ever being called a superstar.

[RRR3]

Lol think fckn retard is melting down so bad right now! Lol it's giving me a half chub knowing he's boiling from inside. :roll:
I'm playing my guitar right now, perfectly calm thanks. I have no reason to "melt down", I'm a goddamn LeBron fan :oldlol: The OP is straight up lying, though.

[Dray n Klay]

Lol think fckn retard is melting down so bad right now! Lol it's giving me a half chub knowing he's boiling from inside. :roll:

:roll:

[BedroomBully]

I'm playing my guitar right now, perfectly calm thanks. I have no reason to "melt down", I'm a goddamn LeBron fan :oldlol: The OP is straight up lying, though.
What is he lying about bro?

[FreezingTsmoove]

No! Hell No! Surely a top 12 would have better production! But 5 rings tho! 81 point tho!

But but surely a top 3 should have better production in the playoffs!!

Wait this thread is about the regular season oooo

3 losing records in the finals :( 4 finals losses :( 2007 swept :( 2011 choked with another superstar :( 2014 the most lopsided finals series loss in history :( 2015 left a championship program to join and lottery team and then realized that wasnt such a gewd idear :( poor bron

[RRR3]

What is he lying about bro?
T-Mac didn't meet his criteria in 2003 and 2004. Bosh met his criteria in 2010. I think everything else that was a mistake he fixed, but he refuses to fix these two and is straight up denying Bosh met the criteria in 2009-10, which he factually did. FWIW, I don't consider Bosh a superstar.

[GrapeApe]

As has been menioned, Bosh met OP's requirements in 2010. Also, why not use 55%TS instead of the more arbitrary 46%FG? 55%TS is generally the mark of good efficiency.

Defense is also completely ignored in OP's criteria. Tim Duncan was an elite defender in several of his sub-25 PER seasons. He was obviously a superstar from '99-'01, in '06, and from '08-'10. A more extreme example is Ben Wallace, who could easily have been considered a superstar when he was the league's best and most impactful defender, despite having limited offensive production.

[BedroomBully]

But but surely a top 3 should have better production in the playoffs!!

Wait this thread is about the regular season oooo

3 losing records in the finals :( 4 finals losses :( 2007 swept :( 2011 choked with another superstar :( 2014 the most lopsided finals series loss in history :( 2015 left a championship program to join and lottery team and then realized that wasnt such a gewd idear :( poor bron
Lol you mean to tell me that LeBron won a Chip with a lottery team? Jesus. Surely such accomplishment has to go down as one of the greatest!

[FreezingTsmoove]

Lol you mean to tell me that LeBron won a Chip with a lottery team? Jesus. Surely such accomplishment has to go down as one of the greatest!

Well Kobe did exactly the same thing

07 was a lottery team
08 took said lottery team to the finals and lost in 6
09 won the whole damn thing

So Kobes also goes down as one of the greatest too!!!

[BedroomBully]

Well Kobe did exactly the same thing

07 was a lottery team
08 took said lottery team to the finals and lost in 6
09 won the whole damn thing

So Kobes also goes down as one of the greatest too!!!
Look buddy you and I know that's not true. Kobe had a good supporting cast, and he got it done. There is no shame in that.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Look buddy you and I know that's not true. Kobe had a good supporting cast, and he got it done. There is no shame in that.

It is true both had similar paths to the title

[GrapeApe]

Thanks for pointing that out, i'll remove him now :confusedshrug:

Wade led the league in PER in 2007. Not that there's an official "PER champion", but Wade played enough games to be recognized by BBallReference as having the league's top PER that season.

Still waiting on the addition of 2010 Bosh, who clearly was a better player than 1999-2001 Duncan. I mean, Duncan was a near consensus top 3 player those seasons, but apparently he wasn't a superstar.

[Poetry]

There ya' go fellas. No need to argue anymore whether "so and so" was a superstar. I just laid out a formula. Use this as future reference.

Thanks. I didn't realize MJ never had the opportunity to play with a superstar the way LeBron did with Wade. Good information to know.

[tpols]

T-Mac didn't meet his criteria in 2003 and 2004. Bosh met his criteria in 2010. I think everything else that was a mistake he fixed, but he refuses to fix these two and is straight up denying Bosh met the criteria in 2009-10, which he factually did. FWIW, I don't consider Bosh a superstar.

that's actually hilarious.. like how warriorfan used to spam that pic of bosh bein top 5 PER.. ultimate backfire for OP. Thats what happens when you set dumb qualifiers seeking to meet an agenda.. we need better trollin on this forum.

[LostCause]

This had the potential to be an objectively good post by Dray n Klay, and honestly I was impressed for a bit...

But then it turned to shit

[Dray n Klay]

that's actually hilarious.. like how warriorfan used to spam that pic of bosh bein top 5 PER.. ultimate backfire for OP. Thats what happens when you set dumb qualifiers seeking to meet an agenda.. we need better trollin on this forum.

Umm.. where's Bosh in the post? :oldlol:

He didn't make the cutoff :banana:







Kobe made it on this list, don't know why you're so salty :confusedshrug:

[TommyGriffin]

that's actually hilarious.. like how warriorfan used to spam that pic of bosh bein top 5 PER.. ultimate backfire for OP. Thats what happens when you set dumb qualifiers seeking to meet an agenda.. we need better trollin on this forum.
Chris Bosh was actually top 4.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=417101

[SouBeachTalents]

People are making this out to be much more difficult than it really is. A superstar is a player that

1. Can lead any roster in the league to the playoffs
2. Makes the All-NBA Team every season, usually All-NBA First Team
3. Is in the MVP race every season, usually top 5 in voting

If you don't meet all 3 criteria on a regular basis, you aren't a superstar imo

[Dray n Klay]

People are making this out to be much more difficult than it really is. A superstar is a player that

1. Can lead any roster in the league to the playoffs
2. Makes the All-NBA Team every season, usually All-NBA First Team
3. Is in the MVP race every season, usually top 5 in voting

If you don't meet all 3 criteria on a regular basis, you aren't a superstar imo

By your definition Wade/Kobe were never superstars, since they both missed the playoffs in their prime, which voids your 1st criteria :confusedshrug:

[SouBeachTalents]

By your definition Wade/Kobe were never superstars, since they both missed the playoffs in their prime, which voids your 1st criteria :confusedshrug:

I said regular basis, as even the likes of Hakeem, Wilt & Kareem missed the playoffs in their primes. 1 fluke season isn't enough to override year after year of superstar play

[Screamin A Smit]

Dray n kaly destroying FumingTSnooth :lol

[Pointguard]

A star shines first and foremost. A super star shines brighter than the others. So first and foremost the player stands out. If you need stats, you aren't really a fan. Nobody looks at Pele, Ali, Jordan, Jim Brown and wonders about their light. If you have to go to a stat, you aren't looking at a superstar.

The second criteria is how the universe spins around the star player. Meaning he affects all people around him, the opposing players as well as the gate. People look up at the stars and make time to see them.

The third criteria is their unmistakable identity among other great players. They have some flair, charisma or some crazy expectation which is part of their recognition.

[Pointguard]

The player must shoot at least 46.0% from the field. This separates the Chris Pauls from the Stephan Marburys of the world. Basically you don't get rewarded for shooting your team in the foot with your inefficient shooting. This rewards players for player high-IQ superstar impact basketball while helping your team win games and not ruining the offense.

Doesn't work because some teams have to play an inefficient game to outscore more talented teams. Lebron in 2015 finals played the right game. To keep forcing the issue is the only way for most teams to get the Warriors off of their game. In fact, the playoffs are in general a less efficient game.

[GrapeApe]

By your definition Wade/Kobe were never superstars, since they both missed the playoffs in their prime, which voids your 1st criteria :confusedshrug:

Healthy Wade and Kobe never missed the playoffs in their primes. In fact, Wade took one of the most dreadful rosters in the league to the playoffs in back to back sessons. When he returned in 2009 he single-handedly improved his team by 28 wins.

Anyway, I think SBT's criteria for a superstar is pretty solid, at least as a general guideline. Personally, I define "superstar" as a player you can build a championship team around. When I say that, I mean a legit champonship centerpiece, not simply a player who is capable of being the top performer on a championship team. It's not about stats and accolades, it's about impact.

[Da Real Lambo]

Heres my formula: If lebron calls you in the off season you are a superstar.

[bizil]

Doesn't work because some teams have to play an inefficient game to outscore more talented teams. Lebron in 2015 finals played the right game. To keep forcing the issue is the only way for most teams to get the Warriors off of their game. In fact, the playoffs are in general a less efficient game.

Good point! I think FG% can be one of the most overrated stats in basketball. When u are on a team short on scoring help, great players often times have to force up bad shots. On the other side, some great scorers get into hero ball mode when they are really rolling. So instead of settling for their 25+ points a night, they might try to go for 50 when they are really feeling it. So in that case, the FG% might not be the greatest either. But no doubt FG% can be VERY OVERRATED when evaluating players!

[TommyGriffin]

Good point! I think FG% can be one of the most overrated stats in basketball. When u are on a team short on scoring help, great players often times have to force up bad shots. On the other side, some great scorers get into hero ball mode when they are really rolling. So instead of settling for their 25+ points a night, they might try to go for 50 when they are really feeling it.
When I played ball the best shooters on the team had the worst FG% and the worst shooters had the best FG%. If you are a great shooter you are taking more shots and more difficult shots so your FG% is not going to be the same as a lesser skilled player who only goes for garbage buckets around the hoop.

[bizil]

When I played ball the best shooters on the team had the worst FG% and the worst shooters had the best FG%. If you are a great shooter you are taking more shots and more difficult shots so your FG% is not going to be the same as a lesser skilled player who only goes for garbage buckets around the hoop.

Exactly right! I wish more people would consider this when knocking a great scorer's shooting percentage.

[SAKOTXA]

No hidden agenda in this thread whatsoever:oldlol: :oldlol:

Get lost, kid.

How bored are you with your life?

[GrapeApe]

When I played ball the best shooters on the team had the worst FG% and the worst shooters had the best FG%. If you are a great shooter you are taking more shots and more difficult shots so your FG% is not going to be the same as a lesser skilled player who only goes for garbage buckets around the hoop.

That's not remotely true at the NBA level (or any level I know of). By your logic, the NBA would be full of teams whose leading scorers shot a lower % than their worst players. That's utterly ridiculous. In reality, the majority of great scorers have FG%'s that are well above the league average for their position. That's part of what makes them great scorers. In terms of perimeter players, guys like Jordan, Lebron, and Wade are all high volume scorers who shoot 49%+ from the field. Very few low volume scoring perimter players are able to post that kind of FG%.

[bizil]

That's not remotely true at the NBA level (or any level I know of). By your logic, the NBA would be full of teams whose leading scorers shot a lower % than their worst players. That's utterly ridiculous. In reality, the majority of great scorers have FG%'s that are well above the league average for their position. That's part of what makes them great scorers. In terms of perimeter players, guys like Jordan, Lebron, and Wade are all high volume scorers who shoot 49%+ from the field. Very few low volume scoring perimeter players are able to post that kind of FG%.

What tommygriffin meant to say was u CAN'T put a high shooting percentage on a pedestal on all time. U have big men like DeAndre Jordan who shoot over 60% from the field. But Deandre is FAR FROM a great scorer. He only averages 12 points a night, and most of that is from pick and roll action and offensive rebounds. Great interior scorers like Shaq and Wilt shooting near 60% or above is much more impressive.

And u CAN'T knock a great perimeter scorer ALL THE TIME if their FG% is in the mid to low 40's. No doubt MJ, Gervin, and Bron shoot EPIC FG% for great scorers. But guys who AREN'T as efficient like Kobe, Nique, and AI still qualified as great scorers too. Give me a true alpha dog averaging 28 points a night on 45% shooting OVER a true 2nd or 3rd option 18 PPG scorer that shoots 50% from the field. So the point is FG% CAN INDEED be overrated at times!

[TommyGriffin]

That's not remotely true at the NBA level (or any level I know of). By your logic, the NBA would be full of teams whose leading scorers shot a lower % than their worst players. That's utterly ridiculous. In reality, the majority of great scorers have FG%'s that are well above the league average for their position. That's part of what makes them great scorers. In terms of perimeter players, guys like Jordan, Lebron, and Wade are all high volume scorers who shoot 49%+ from the field. Very few low volume scoring perimter players are able to post that kind of FG%.

https://s15.postimg.org/n2tjstpjv/FG2016.png

These look like the best shooters in the league to you?

[SpaceJam]

What if I told you at the end of the 09-10 season, 3 of the leagues 5 superstars joined together on a single team :eek: :eek:

[SwayDizzle]

What if I told you at the end of the 09-10 season, 3 of the leagues 5 superstars joined together on a single team :eek: :eek:
Id be like, dayummmm, thats collusion at its finest

[Spurs m8]

Duncan with another rape on Kobe

[Annyong!]

Good for Kobe being a superstar one season. :applause:

[ImKobe]

so 2015 Anthony Davis, 2014 Demarcus Cousins is a superstar but 03-06, 08-13 Kobe isn't. Elton Brand in 2006 is a superstar but Kobe isn't. 2005 Amare is a superstar but Kobe isn't.

LOL

[GrapeApe]

https://s15.postimg.org/n2tjstpjv/FG2016.png

These look like the best shooters in the league to you?

Most of those guys are big men. I was mainly referring to perimeter players. There's always going to be exceptions, but the point I made in my previous post still holds true. The best scorers in the league generally have an above average fg% compared to low-volume scorers who play the same (or similar) position.

Obviously I'd rather have a guy who scores 28 ppg on 45% over a guy who scores 10 ppg on 50%. That goes without saying, but truly elite scorers are able to maintain a good fg% even at high volumes. Again, that's what makes them elite and separates them from players who simply attempt a lot of shots. Not every player with a high amount of fga's is an elite scorer. As I mentioned before, guys like Jordan, Lebron, and Wade are perfect examples of volume scoring combined with a stellar fg%.

[ImKobe]

Most of those guys are big men. I was mainly referring to perimeter players. There's always going to be exceptions, but the point I made in my previous post still holds true. The best scorers in the league generally have an above average fg% compared to low-volume scorers who play the same (or similar) position.

Obviously I'd rather have a guy who scores 28 ppg on 45% over a guy who scores 10 ppg on 50%. That goes without saying, but truly elite scorers are able to maintain a good fg% even at high volumes. Again, that's what makes them elite and separates them from players who simply attempt a lot of shots. Not every player with a high amount of fga's is an elite scorer, and as I mentioned before, guys like Jordan, Lebron, and Wade are perfect examples of volume scoring combined with a stellar fg%.

Lebron and Jordan are the GOATs when it comes to scoring in the paint, they are all-time great athletes, what separates Jordan from Lebron as a scorer is his ability to make jump shots at a high %.

The argument overall is stupid though. Superstars aren't determined by FG%, ppg or PER, the casual fan doesn't care about those things when they are watching the game. If you were a fan of Kobe or watched the Lakers play in the mid-2000s you watched him because he was going to go off for 30-40 points on any given night, and he would do it in a way no other player could. He would go to the post, he would hit the elbow jumper, he would drive inside and attempt the toughest layups/dunks, if the game was close in the 4th you already knew who was going to get the ball.

Kobe draws more attention from opposing defenses than a Lebron/Wade, despite him being less efficient on the stat sheet, that's what allowed his teammates (Shaq/Gasol/Odom/Bynum) to get easy baskets in the most crucial moments. Lebron/Wade in their primes were left wide open on the perimeter to shoot the jump shot, no one ever dared prime Kobe to shoot wide open jump shots. Kobe dropped 81 on the cRaptors when their game plan was to give Kobe single coverage, you watch the game back he wasn't double-teamed.

[ralph_i_el]

Use TS% instead of FG%

It's more reflective of efficiency.

maybe a 55 TS% cutoff?

[TheOne]

Absolutely kobeproof

[ralph_i_el]

When I played ball the best shooters on the team had the worst FG% and the worst shooters had the best FG%. If you are a great shooter you are taking more shots and more difficult shots so your FG% is not going to be the same as a lesser skilled player who only goes for garbage buckets around the hoop.


^This

Plus the best FG%'s from perimeter players today come mostly from guys that don't shoot many 3's

[Nastradamus]

SHouldn't be using FG% for something like this. Arguably don't need it at all, but at least use TS% or eFG%. PER kinda covers it though. If you are a 25 PER, and shoot under 46, so be it.

I'd say I want at least a 3 BPM too

[Pointguard]

Use TS% instead of FG%

It's more reflective of efficiency.

maybe a 55 TS% cutoff?
TS% has little relationship to greatness. I keep stressing Magic is the only GOAT that's in the top ten TS% and Kareem the only other in the top 30 - primarily because Magic made his last ten years a joy around the basket. Outside of myself nobody ever brings up Magic's TS%.

That year that Lebron had that great TS%, very close to 680% in the finals which might have been the best ever among prolific perimeter players, he definitely was playing the wrong way. Had he abandoned the safe playing and played like he did against GS and only at 450 TS% he would have had a chance at beating SA that year. Too many of you guys are obsessed with stats.

With great big men TS% is actually a bad stat. Way too many other stats are much better. Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem all suffered with TS% Tyson Chandler is a killer tho.

[ralph_i_el]

TS% has little relationship to greatness. I keep stressing Magic is the only GOAT that's in the top ten TS% and Kareem the only other in the top 30 - primarily because Magic made his last ten years a joy around the basket. Outside of myself nobody ever brings up Magic's TS%.

That year that Lebron had that great TS%, very close to 680% in the finals which might have been the best ever among prolific perimeter players, he definitely was playing the wrong way. Had he abandoned the safe playing and played like he did against GS and only at 450 TS% he would have had a chance at beating SA that year. Too many of you guys are obsessed with stats.

With great big men TS% is actually a bad stat. Way too many other stats are much better. Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem all suffered with TS% Tyson Chandler is a killer tho.

TS% is objectively better for measuring shooting efficiency for all players and all positions. It's not even really an advanced metric. It just takes into account that 3's are worth more points, and that FT's exist.

FG% is essentially useless for comparing players. This is not arguable.

[tpols]

TS% has little relationship to greatness. I keep stressing Magic is the only GOAT that's in the top ten TS% and Kareem the only other in the top 30 - primarily because Magic made his last ten years a joy around the basket. Outside of myself nobody ever brings up Magic's TS%.

That year that Lebron had that great TS%, very close to 680% in the finals which might have been the best ever among prolific perimeter players, he definitely was playing the wrong way. Had he abandoned the safe playing and played like he did against GS and only at 450 TS% he would have had a chance at beating SA that year. Too many of you guys are obsessed with stats.

With great big men TS% is actually a bad stat. Way too many other stats are much better. Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem all suffered with TS% Tyson Chandler is a killer tho.

it's not a bad stat .. big men just happen to be poorer at free throws and that ends up affecting their overall efficiency. TS is just points per possesion.. it's the simplest, most all encompassing measure of scoring efficiency that exists.

You're right that being aggressive and attacking the defense relentlessly can lead to lower efficiency for the guy doing the attacking and better efficiency for his teammates who can feed off his action, while passively cherrypicking shots like Bron did will only superficially benefit his own stat line and hurt his teammates since they will see more defensive pressure ... but theres no need to throw the stat out because of outliers like that, just note it in context when its brought up