Why has it become acceptable for superstars at their peak to join other superstars?

[toprange]

At first there was backlash against it. But now a lot of the media and fans push for it. Don't the players care about their legacy anymore?

[Nilocon165]

This topic has never been discussed on insidehoops.com

[keep-itreal]

Do superstars want to struggle and rot in their own franchise as the main guy like Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett did before the Big 3 formed?

I don't think so

[toprange]

Do superstars want to struggle and rot in their own franchise as the main guy like Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett did before the Big 3 formed?

I don't think so
There are other ways of getting help that doesn't require the best players joining up together.

[BigKAT]

Well,

I have a theory.

Until about 89', the Draft was vastly different.
With Territorial picks (You got to get someone from your region if you wanted to, instead of your pick. Meaning the Bulls could draft Wade without needing to draw high in the lottery, etc.) And things like a non-record weighted lottery system, it made things different.

Great players could get to great teams.

But you ask me this then, 'But Hey! What about the 90's? Why didn't player defect then? Look at Reggie Miller, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson etc.. ''

Well, there was still some defections. Barkley to the Suns, Pippen to the Blazers and what not. But I think the Jordan effect kinda made teams go 'Meh, what the hell, I'm not winning a chip anyway.'

Which lead us to the modern day. (Celtics big 3, Karl Malone and Payton joining the Lakers, The Heatles, Cleveland, GSW and such.)

The league is run differently nowdays.
CBA, Draft that empowers the worst teams, which sometimes are also bad organizations that players don't like playing for. Think about Cleveland kinda 'Wasting' some years by lebron. Think about OKC keeping brooks until last year, think about Sacramento and Cousins. (wth is going on there..)

My point is that nowdays it is easier for a crappy organization to get a hold of a great player without too many suave moves, trades or what not. Which leads to more players not trusting their organization to put them in the position to win.

That, and I believe that the rejuvination of the olympic team (2008 and onward) had shown players what they are capable of doing together, Lebron and Wade admitted that the idea of Big 3 was first conecieved in the Beijing Olympics.

Either way, I hope this answer satisfy you. Just my two cents.

[iamgine]

What would be Garnett's legacy had he stayed in Minny? :lol

[toprange]

Well,

I have a theory.

Until about 89', the Draft was vastly different.
With Territorial picks (You got to get someone from your region if you wanted to, instead of your pick. Meaning the Bulls could draft Wade without needing to draw high in the lottery, etc.) And things like a non-record weighted lottery system, it made things different.

Great players could get to great teams.

But you ask me this then, 'But Hey! What about the 90's? Why didn't player defect then? Look at Reggie Miller, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson etc.. ''

Well, there was still some defections. Barkley to the Suns, Pippen to the Blazers and what not. But I think the Jordan effect kinda made teams go 'Meh, what the hell, I'm not winning a chip anyway.'

Which lead us to the modern day. (Celtics big 3, Karl Malone and Payton joining the Lakers, The Heatles, Cleveland, GSW and such.)

The league is run differently nowdays.
CBA, Draft that empowers the worst teams, which sometimes are also bad organizations that players don't like playing for. Think about Cleveland kinda 'Wasting' some years by lebron. Think about OKC keeping brooks until last year, think about Sacramento and Cousins. (wth is going on there..)

My point is that nowdays it is easier for a crappy organization to get a hold of a great player without too many suave moves, trades or what not. Which leads to more players not trusting their organization to put them in the position to win.

That, and I believe that the rejuvination of the olympic team (2008 and onward) had shown players what they are capable of doing together, Lebron and Wade admitted that the idea of Big 3 was first conecieved in the Beijing Olympics.

Either way, I hope this answer satisfy you. Just my two cents.

None of the players you mentioned prior to Lebron and Wade were in their PRIME when they joined other PRIME superstars. It was kind of acceptable for players past their prime to join other prime/non-prime superstars but even then if they won a championship it wouldn't have much value.

[BigKAT]

None of the players you mentioned prior to Lebron and Wade were in their PRIME when they joined other PRIME superstars. It was kind of acceptable for players past their prime to join other prime/non-prime superstars but even then if they won a championship it wouldn't have much value.

I don't think KG and Pierce and Allen's motivation was that they were outside of their prime.

Yes, they were in the last years of their prime, but clearly still there.
Heck, KG nearly won MVP, and he won DOPY.
those 3 got all the way back to the finals in 10'.

But the thing you forget is that players in their Prime (As you consider 25-26 I guess?) are usually in their first contract, which is almost always on their first team.

[Dragonyeuw]

I think players nowadays are more conscious of not being branded as 'the superstar that never won' like Barkley/Malone/Ewing etc, and willing to sacrifice personal stats in order to get that championship on their resume.

[Orlando Magic]

Because Allen Iverson.

[toprange]

I think players nowadays are more conscious of not being branded as 'the superstar that never won' like Barkley/Malone/Ewing etc, and willing to sacrifice personal stats in order to get that championship on their resume.

Part of the greatness about the superstars that won was the dignity in how they won it. Rookies would develop into stars/superstars, and if they couldn't develop, then the team would trade for a star player. That kind of dignity forced other superstars that had not won yet, to not run and join other superstars. TRUE GREATNESS was recognized during that time and not spat on.

[Lebron23]

Every lottery picks should pull a Kobe and Magic by playing for a franchise like the Los Angeles Lakers.

[Annyong!]

It used to be that only old players desperate to win did this. Garnett, Pierce, and Allen stepped this up a bit by having 3 come together rather than just 1 good old player joining a team, and they actually won with this method. LeBron took this to the next level by using old stars joining as a way to justify his joining. Winning changed the way people viewed LeBron, despite the "collude", and now others feel they get a free pass, because if LeBron can do it, why can't they. Durant has now taken it to another level by joining the best team in the league. Don't be surprised if more superstars flock to Cavs and Warriors in the next couple off seasons, though those teams already have the tippy top.

[Lebron23]

Because Allen Iverson.



Iverson should have demanded to be traded to the Los Angeles Lakers in 1996. AI and Shaq = More than 3 NBA titles.

[HurricaneKid]

Every lottery picks should pull a Kobe and Magic by playing for a franchise like the Los Angeles Lakers.

Funny enough, both DEMANDED to play there. Magic said he would go back to MSU and Kobe and his agent FORCED his way to LAL. I don't have a problem using all your leverage to go where you want to go. But if we are being honest here, both put themselves in GREAT positions by joining GOAT players in their primes while other greats languish in horrible franchises.

[livingby3's]

Because of the media, internet and keyboard warriors

[Dragonyeuw]

Part of the greatness about the superstars that won was the dignity in how they won it. Rookies would develop into stars/superstars, and if they couldn't develop, then the team would trade for a star player. That kind of dignity forced other superstars that had not won yet, to not run and join other superstars. TRUE GREATNESS was recognized during that time and not spat on.

Agreed. This generation doesn't seem to view it in the same context.

[Lebron23]

Funny enough, both DEMANDED to play there. Magic said he would go back to MSU and Kobe and his agent FORCED his way to LAL. I don't have a problem using all your leverage to go where you want to go. But if we are being honest here, both put themselves in GREAT positions by joining GOAT players in their primes while other greats languish in horrible franchises.


Those guys ring chased in their rookie season. I doubt they are capable of winning more than 2 rings if they play on a team like the Hornets.

[Hey Yo]

At first there was backlash against it. But now a lot of the media and fans push for it. Don't the players care about their legacy anymore?
They do??

I don't remember people getting pissed about KG and Ray other than Minny and Milwaukee fans.

Should Pierce have demanded a trade (after KG and Ray were brought in) to a sub-par team so he could protect his legacy of never getting past the 2nd round?

Pretty sure Media and fans weren't pushing for Durant to sign with GSW....correct?

[Hey Yo]

There are other ways of getting help that doesn't require the best players joining up together.
What's suppose to be done when you don't play for a FA hotbed?

What ways are there other than overpay for mediocre FA?

[toprange]

It used to be that only old players desperate to win did this. Garnett, Pierce, and Allen stepped this up a bit by having 3 come together rather than just 1 good old player joining a team, and they actually won with this method. LeBron took this to the next level by using old stars joining as a way to justify his joining. Winning changed the way people viewed LeBron, despite the "collude", and now others feel they get a free pass, because if LeBron can do it, why can't they. Durant has now taken it to another level by joining the best team in the league. Don't be surprised if more superstars flock to Cavs and Warriors in the next couple off seasons, though those teams already have the tippy top.

And therein lies the problem. Getting the pass. When punishment is not given the problem grows. If players that use PED's are publicly given a pass then other players will start using it. Does it become acceptable to give these type of players the same credit as players who do not use PED's. Of course it doesn't. It dirties up the game. This is what a lot of the kobe fans are arguing about in this forum and the responses we get are attacks on kobe that have nothing to do with the subject or attacks that make it look like other past greats did similar things and also got the pass.

[Wally450]

At the end of the day you're playing for championships, that's why.

[Lebron23]

At the end of the day you're playing for championships, that's why.


/End Thread.

[toprange]

Funny enough, both DEMANDED to play there. Magic said he would go back to MSU and Kobe and his agent FORCED his way to LAL. I don't have a problem using all your leverage to go where you want to go. But if we are being honest here, both put themselves in GREAT positions by joining GOAT players in their primes while other greats languish in horrible franchises.
Kobe and Magic were not in their prime when they joined the lakers. Kobe was not a superstar, he was a rookie going into a bench role and Shaq was not even on the team during that time. As much as you want it to be the same it is not even close

[BedroomBully]

There are other ways of getting help that doesn't require the best players joining up together.
How? Tell me? The draft or free agency? Do you really think superstars will even consider cities like Minnesota? Or Milwakee? I mean, who the hell wants to go there when you have options like LA, New York and Miami. Get your head out your azz boy, you'd be the first to leave your trailer park in South Dakota if they offered you a cozy job in one of these cities.

[toprange]

At the end of the day you're playing for championships, that's why.
And there are propper ways of getting it done and also improper ways. Just like all other goals in the world.

[iamgine]

And there are propper ways of getting it done and also improper ways. Just like all other goals in the world.
Improper ways might just be your opinion.

[GimmeThat]

Because the lagging effect from Coaches to win with borderline lottery picks and none-lottery picks

[Hey Yo]

Kobe and Magic were not in their prime when they joined the lakers. Kobe was not a superstar, he was a rookie going into a bench role and Shaq was not even on the team during that time. As much as you want it to be the same it is not even close
Being a 17yr old unproven nobody and demanding to play for the 2nd most successful franchise is a slap in the face to those before him who realized it was a privilege to play pro sports and played for the bad team who selected them.

Take your lumps first, become a FA and then hopefully get an offer from who you want to play for.

Plus it was pretty much a done deal that Shaq was being brought in. Why do you think they were dealing prime Divac to Charlotte?

[toprange]

How? Tell me? The draft or free agency? Do you really think superstars will even consider cities like Minnesota? Or Milwakee? I mean, who the hell wants to go there when you have options like LA, New York and Miami. Get your head out your azz boy, you'd be the first to leave your trailer park in South Dakota if they offered you a cozy job in one of these cities.
I don't know. The same way most of the champions of the past got help and won championships. Sorry but the best players did not join the other best players to win championships.

[iamgine]

I don't know. The same way most of the champions of the past got help and won championships. Sorry but the best players did not join the other best players to win championships.
Yeah they had it even easier. They already had Shaq and Kareem on their team.

[BedroomBully]

I don't know. The same way most of the champions of the past got help and won championships. Sorry but the best players did not join the other best players to win championships.
If you look back in history, 95% of the championships were won by big market teams. It's just the nature of the beast. Small market/cities are NOT set up to win. If any player wants to win titles, the will have to migrate to other teams where the opportunity for success is greater. I can't remember the last time a small market team won a championship. Oh wait, The Cavs did this year. How often does that happen? Every 52 years?

[MP.Trey]

I don't know. The same way most of the champions of the past got help and won championships. Sorry but the best players did not join the other best players to win championships.
MJ needed Pip.

Kobe needed Shaq & Pau.

Russell needed Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Sam Jones.

Bird needed McHale, Parish, DJ.

Magic needed Kareem, Worthy, Coop.

Duncan needed Ginobili, Parker, Kawhi.

LeBron needed Wade, Bosh & Kyrie.


Who cares how they came together. Every great player needs other great players around him to win multiple championships. The so called "loyal" ones on this list were just lucky they got put in such a great position.

[BedroomBully]

Yeah they had it even easier. They already had Shaq and Kareem on their team.
Magic won a title his rookie year for Christ sake! Kobe won his first at the age of 21! How is that for, building from the ground up! My point is, you play for these big markets you're almost guaranteed success.

[toprange]

If you look back in history, 95% of the championships were won by big market teams. It's just the nature of the beast. Small market/cities are NOT set up to win. If any player wants to win titles, the will have to migrate to other teams where the opportunity for success is greater. I can't remember the last time a small market team won a championship. Oh wait, The Cavs did this year. How often does that happen? Every 52 years?

Where opportunity for success is greater.
Was that the case in:
CHI - no
HOU - no
SA - no
LA - in 1996 no - Unless you are dumb enough to believe that a team has great opportunity to win after all their stars have retired and their last championship was in 1988. And that there are currently no stars on the team.
DET - no
DAL - no

[toprange]

Magic won a title his rookie year for Christ sake! Kobe won his first at the age of 21! How is that for, building from the ground up! My point is, you play for these big markets you're almost guaranteed success.
Lakers had a superstar player in shaq. But Kobe played the bench then rose to superstar level and then they started winning. There is nothing unnatural or uncompetitive about winning like that

[TheWinningFam]

Lakers had a superstar player in shaq. But Kobe played the bench then rose to superstar level and then they started winning. That is one of the natural ways of winning.
Keeping the raptors from drafting you and begging to be traded to a 55 win team is not a "natural way of winning" If you think that is then you can't be on lebron's jock for what he did considering he was a free agent and could do what he wanted. 🐸☕️

[toprange]

Keeping the raptors from drafting you and begging to be traded to a 55 win team is not a "natural way of winning" If you think that is then you can't be on lebron's jock for what he did considering he was a free agent and could do what he wanted. 🐸☕️
Kyrie as a rookie joined a 61-win team minus the coach and star players. Is he expected to win in this situation. NO!!!. Stop bullshitting and discrediting the real and competetive way of winning

[Lebron23]

Kyrie as a rookie joined a 61-win team minus the coach and star players. Is he expected to win in this situation. NO!!!. Stop bullshitting and discrediting the real and competetive way of winning


You need to Shut the F*ck up.

[GimmeThat]

If you look back in history, 95% of the championships were won by big market teams. It's just the nature of the beast. Small market/cities are NOT set up to win. If any player wants to win titles, the will have to migrate to other teams where the opportunity for success is greater. I can't remember the last time a small market team won a championship. Oh wait, The Cavs did this year. How often does that happen? Every 52 years?

we might as well look into what exactly were the owners actual profession and how they got to their position as a majority owner

but then that's the league and the commissioner's job

I suppose the United States have lost a lot, if not completely of what it was like to be the explorers similar to the era of Oregon Trail

because getting past the Arch of St. Louis wasn't enough, for those who spent their life fighting against slavery

[BedroomBully]

Kyrie as a rookie joined a 61-win team minus the coach and star players. Is he expected to win in this situation. NO!!!. Stop bullshitting and discrediting the real and competetive way of winning
????? Just stop kid. Yo sound stupid azz hell. Go do some research before you post. I swear these Kibe tards keep getting dumber by the day. This dumb $hit just compared the Kobe's Lakers to the shit franchise Kyrie enherited.

[BedroomBully]

we might as well look into what exactly were the owners actual profession and how they got to their position as a majority owner

but then that's the league and the commissioner's job

I suppose the United States have lost a lot, if not completely of what it was like to be the explorers similar to the era of Oregon Trail

because getting past the Arch of St. Louis wasn't enough, for those who spent their life fighting against slavery
:biggums:

[BedroomBully]

Lakers had a superstar player in shaq. But Kobe played the bench then rose to superstar level and then they started winning. There is nothing unnatural or uncompetitive about winning like that
Hey ****kkk tard, what part of Kobe demanded to be traded on draft night do you not understand?

[SouBeachTalents]

we might as well look into what exactly were the owners actual profession and how they got to their position as a majority owner

but then that's the league and the commissioner's job

I suppose the United States have lost a lot, if not completely of what it was like to be the explorers similar to the era of Oregon Trail

because getting past the Arch of St. Louis wasn't enough, for those who spent their life fighting against slavery

Is he trolling or autistic? I honestly can't tell

[bizil]

If u look at most NBA champs throughout history, MOST OF THEM had at least 2-3 HOFers on those squads. And worst case scenario MOST OF THEM had at least 2-3 All Star caliber players. SO U NEED multiple superstars in many cases to win rings. It's about assembling the best team to win titles.

NOW the method some guys come together might not be the most appealing to some. The ONLY CASE that really got under my skin a bit was KD going to the Warriors. If there was ever a case of jumping on a bandwagon, that could have been it. When Bron-Wade-Bosh formed, Miami was going down. THEY FORMED SOMETHING to make them relevant again.

It was the same with KG-Pierce-Ray. Even though they were a bit older than Bron-Wade-Bosh, they were still at peak level status or close. In KD's case he joined a former NBA champ, regular season record breaking team who featured a two time MVP. And on top of it, KD JOINED THE TEAM OKC blew a 3-1 lead to.

[toprange]

Hey ****kkk tard, what part of Kobe demanded to be traded on draft night do you not understand?
Listen you bit$H, I am GIVING YOU THE OPPORTUNITY to compare a rookie kobe joining a team that had no stars in it to a team where the best players are joinging the other best players in their prime. And I am ENTERTAINING whatever stupid reasoning you are spinning to allow that comparison to be valid but it just NEVER will be VALID you id!ot!. And you trying to explain you reasoning shows the F'ked up ways you trick yourself into believing this bull$hit

[SouBeachTalents]

Listen you bit$H, I am GIVING YOU THE OPPORTUNITY to compare a rookie kobe joining a team that had no stars in it to a team where the best players are joinging the other best players in their prime. And I am ENTERTAINING whatever stupid reasoning you are spinning to allow that comparison to be valid but it just NEVER will be VALID you id!ot!. And you trying to explain you reasoning shows the F'ked up ways you trick yourself into believing this bull$hit

:roll:

[Dragonyeuw]

NOW the method some guys come together might not be the most appealing to some. The ONLY CASE that really got under my skin a bit was KD going to the Warriors. If there was ever a case of jumping on a bandwagon, that could have been it. When Bron-Wade-Bosh formed, Miami was going down. THEY FORMED SOMETHING to make them relevant again.



Lebron would have had to join the 2008 Celtics for his move to be anywhere near as bad as what KD just did.

[sammichoffate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7VEPNsMTC0

[toprange]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7VEPNsMTC0

Thank you for that :cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

Its fairly obvious how we got here. 6 decades of idiots acting like a star who lost is automatically to blame no matter what. This was a topic before game 7 of the finals:



If Cavs don't win, it's because Lebron didn't do enough, PERIOD. Even MJ scored 55 points in a finals game in 1993......

Now go get your fvcking popcorn ready and save the illegitimate excuses for another site because ISH isn't having it! Only legit excuses matter here!


Different topic and poster:



No excuses.

If Cavs lose, lebron didn't do enough

When fans have become dumb enough to blame guys for Ls no matter what....game unseen...we cant then be shocked guys stop caring how they win...just that they win.

All the utter bullshit Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Wilt, Barkley, Jordan, Shaq...KG...Dirk and so on heard....no matter how well they played? It got us here.

The only difference is that there was no unrestricted free agency until 1988....and no easily predictable free agencies till the 2000s. Guys were on long ass random deals. Most stars were never free agents. Magic on a 25 year deal...Isiah Thomas on a 12 year deal. Jordan like...8. Larry Johnson 10. Chris Webber signed a 15 year deal in like 1993 that he managed to get voided.

Back then....player movement was stifled by inconsistency in contracts and a very different CBA...and the media was much smaller and you really only knew the people in your area. If Elvin Hayes is at home in 1972....how much is he gonna hear hating wise? In 2016....Kevin Durant has twitter...the internet....24/7 sports news. Hes hated on from someone he can access and feel the hate from...every second of every day.

And so much of it boils down to winning.....we make these guys not care anymore. Thats why he asked "Who is gonna care when im 49?" about all the hate. And hes right.

People are ****ing idiots...who only care that you won. Not how.

He wins a ring millions will show him love. And he gets that ring...for life. No more...best to never. Its over. Done.

You thinking it doesnt count for his "legacy" wont change things a bit.

Legacy is long term. Legacy doesnt give a shit how you did anything. Some kid reading a career summary in 2064 wont give a shit how Durant got rings any more than you care how Dolph Schayes got his. He will just see stats...and how many rings he won.

You can hate it.....but you cant do anything about it.

Stupid people who count rings and dont know basketball have made these young guys into wrestling heels. And as the greatest heel stable in wrestling put it "People dont ask how you won...they ask IF you won".

If we didnt want the 4 Horsemen maybe we should have been praising great players who lost as much as the great players who won while being worse than the losers.


This is what its come to:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CleverOddballGarpike-size_restricted.gif

And the haters have nobody to blame but themselves.

[SouBeachTalents]

Its fairly obvious how we got here. 6 decades of idiots acting like a star who lost is automatically to blame no matter what. This was a topic before game 7 of the finals:





Different topic and poster:




When fans have become dumb enough to blame guys for Ls no matter what....game unseen...we cant then be shocked guys stop caring how they win...just that they win.

All the utter bullshit Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Wilt, Barkley, Jordan, Shaq...KG...Dirk and so on heard....no matter how well they played? It got us here.

The only difference is that there was no unrestricted free agency until 1988....and no easily predictable free agencies till the 2000s. Guys were on long ass random deals. Most stars were never free agents. Magic on a 25 year deal...Isiah Thomas on a 12 year deal. Jordan like...8. Larry Johnson 10. Chris Webber signed a 15 year deal in like 1993 that he managed to get voided.

Back then....player movement was stifled by inconsistency in contracts and a very different CBA...and the media was much smaller and you really only knew the people in your area. If Elvin Hayes is at home in 1972....how much is he gonna hear hating wise? In 2016....Kevin Durant has twitter...the internet....24/7 sports news. Hes hated on from someone he can access and feel the hate from...every second of every day.

And so much of it boils down to winning.....we make these guys not care anymore. Thats why he asked "Who is gonna care when im 49?" about all the hate. And hes right.

People are ****ing idiots...who only care that you won. Not how.

He wins a ring millions will show him love. And he gets that ring...for life. No more...best to never. Its over. Done.

You thinking it doesnt count for his "legacy" wont change things a bit.

Legacy is long term. Legacy doesnt give a shit how you did anything. Some kid reading a career summary in 2064 wont give a shit how Durant got rings any more than you care how Dolph Schayes got his. He will just see stats...and how many rings he won.

You can hate it.....but you cant do anything about it.

:applause:

[Annyong!]

Lebron would have had to join the 2008 Celtics for his move to be anywhere near as bad as what KD just did.
Celtics are too old. LeBron would have had to join the Lakers after 2009.

[toprange]

Its fairly obvious how we got here. 6 decades of idiots acting like a star who lost is automatically to blame no matter what. This was a topic before game 7 of the finals:





Different topic and poster:




When fans have become dumb enough to blame guys for Ls no matter what....game unseen...we cant then be shocked guys stop caring how they win...just that they win.

All the utter bullshit Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Wilt, Barkley, Jordan, Shaq...KG...Dirk and so on heard....no matter how well they played? It got us here.

The only difference is that there was no unrestricted free agency until 1988....and no easily predictable free agencies till the 2000s. Guys were on long ass random deals. Most stars were never free agents. Magic on a 25 year deal...Isiah Thomas on a 12 year deal. Jordan like...8. Larry Johnson 10. Chris Webber signed a 15 year deal in like 1993 that he managed to get voided.

Back then....player movement was stifled by inconsistency in contracts and a very different CBA...and the media was much smaller and you really only knew the people in your area. If Elvin Hayes is at home in 1972....how much is he gonna hear hating wise? In 2016....Kevin Durant has twitter...the internet....24/7 sports news. Hes hated on from someone he can access and feel the hate from...every second of every day.

And so much of it boils down to winning.....we make these guys not care anymore. Thats why he asked "Who is gonna care when im 49?" about all the hate. And hes right.

People are ****ing idiots...who only care that you won. Not how.

He wins a ring millions will show him love. And he gets that ring...for life. No more...best to never. Its over. Done.

You thinking it doesnt count for his "legacy" wont change things a bit.

Legacy is long term. Legacy doesnt give a shit how you did anything. Some kid reading a career summary in 2064 wont give a shit how Durant got rings any more than you care how Dolph Schayes got his. He will just see stats...and how many rings he won.

You can hate it.....but you cant do anything about it.

Stupid people who count rings and dont know basketball have made these young guys into wrestling heels. And as the greatest heel stable in wrestling put it "People dont ask how you won...they ask IF you won".

If we didnt want the 4 Horsemen maybe we should have been praising great players who lost as much as the great players who won while being worse than the losers.


This is what its come to:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CleverOddballGarpike-size_restricted.gif

And the haters have nobody to blame but themselves.

Nobody is hating on the stars who lost. That is not what all this is about. Did you watch the youtube link above (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7VEPNsMTC0). The same stars who lost agree that part of the greatness about the superstars that won was the dignity in how they won it. Rookies would develop into stars/superstars, and if they couldn't develop, then the team would trade for a star player. That kind of dignity forced other superstars that had not won yet, to not run and join other superstars. TRUE GREATNESS was recognized during that time and not spat on.

[Kblaze8855]

True greatness from someone losing has never been properly recognized. Not in basketball.

And again.....you gotta stop with the players not joining back in the day nonsense. It could not be done.

There was NEVER an unrestricted free agent in the NBA before tom Chambers in 1988. And by then half the guys you think of as the loyal stars from the golden era were locked up to deals that made moving impossible.

Ive heard from Elgin Baylors own mouth in old footage how he wanted to play with the Celtics just to win.

Ive heard plenty of players bemoan being stuck on shitty teams they wish they could leave.

Go watch the congressional hearings with guys like Oscar Robertson, Dave Debuscherre, and Lou Hudson talking about how they just wanted freedom. Guys tried to form super teams all through history. What do you call it when Doctor J joins the Hawks with Pistol Pete and 2 other hall of famers? A lawsuit from his old team forcing a judge to make him go back doesnt make those guys more loyal.

It makes them more restricted.

It was like 2009 before anyone was in the hall of fame who played their entire career with the OPTION of leaving their current team at will.

The minute the league dropped the restrictions this was inevitable. Like 4 years into a somewhat modern system the Magic, Bulls, and Knicks all tried to form Big 3s. The Magic got 2 of the 4 they wanted...Tmac and Hill....they almost got Duncan or Webber.

With the modern freedoms....you think guys would have been told where they had to play in the 60s?

If Oscar robertson could have left the Kings at will and joined a great team he would have done it. He pretty much said so in his book.

You should read some of the books on how the ABA/NBA merger was put off for like 6 years. Plenty of players wanted to move around.

They did not have a choice.

Once they did....getting to this point was just a matter of time.

[Bankaii]

Kyrie as a rookie joined a 61-win team minus the coach and star players. Is he expected to win in this situation. NO!!!. Stop bullshitting and discrediting the real and competetive way of winning
I'm fully convinced either all the trolls here are actually regarded or simply don't watch basketball at all.

Kyrie was drafted to a19 win team.
The Cavs drafted him in 2011, a full year after Lebron led them to 60+ wins and left.

Just stop you're embarrassing yourself:roll:

[Bankaii]

Celtics are too old. LeBron would have had to join the Lakers after 2009.
What are you talking about?
The Celtics made the Finals the year they defeated Lebron and he left.
They were still his biggest competition in 2011/12 (2011 bulls too).
That would be the perfect equivalent to what KD did.

[toprange]

True greatness from someone losing has never been properly recognized. Not in basketball.

And again.....you gotta stop with the players not joining back in the day nonsense. It could not be done.


Whether it could or could not be done is something else. Webber, Shaq, Barkley, Jordan, Magic, Bird all said that they would never have though about joining the best player at the start of their prime. Lets put it this way, if you are for colluding then fine. If you are not for colluding fine also. But do not compare players that colluded to players that did not collude. That's all.

[Hey Yo]

Whether it could or could not be done is something else. Webber, Shaq, Barkley, Jordan, Magic, Bird all said that they would never have though about joining the best player at the start of their prime. Lets put it this way, if you are for colluding then fine. If you are not for colluding fine also. But do not compare players that colluded to players that did not collude. That's all.
Why would Magic and Bird want to leave their teams?

MJ signed a huge $$$$ deal for over 8yrs. Any hardcore gambler would take the money.

Shaq left after 4 years to go to LA who were a 4 seed the year before

Barkley was a ring chaser

Webber was traded throughout his career.

You're DUMB

[Hey Yo]

Nobody is hating on the stars who lost. That is not what all this is about. Did you watch the youtube link above (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7VEPNsMTC0). The same stars who lost agree that part of the greatness about the superstars that won was the dignity in how they won it. Rookies would develop into stars/superstars, and if they couldn't develop, then the team would trade for a star player. That kind of dignity forced other superstars that had not won yet, to not run and join other superstars. TRUE GREATNESS was recognized during that time and not spat on.
So if the rookies didn't develop into superstars or were busts....the team would just trade them for a star?

"We'll give you our bad players for your good players"

Yeah....that's how it works. :hammerhead:

[bizil]

Lebron would have had to join the 2008 Celtics for his move to be anywhere near as bad as what KD just did.

That's an AWESOME EXAMPLE!! No way in hell would Bron entertain that. The competitor in him wouldn't have allowed it. Bron wanted to FORM his own superteam to beat them. I could NEVER imagine MJ, Doc, Kobe, Magic, or Bird pulling the move KD did. It wasn't about KD leaving, it was about the team and manner he left in.

[Kblaze8855]

Whether it could or could not be done is something else. Webber, Shaq, Barkley, Jordan, Magic, Bird all said that they would never have though about joining the best player at the start of their prime. Lets put it this way, if you are for colluding then fine. If you are not for colluding fine also. But do not compare players that colluded to players that did not collude. That's all.


Dude....you are trying to compare the competitive spirit of people based on some doing something...the other side COULD NOT DO. How does that make sense to anyone?

Magic Johnson was signed to the lakers from 1979...to 2009. That's when he would have been a free agent.

Bird signed an 8ish year deal that carried him out of his prime.

Isiah Thomas 12 years.

Anyone before them.....NEVER a free agent.

Even when they added it....they had to have completed both 7 seasons in the NBA...AND two complete contracts with the team that drafted them.

Guys were not straight up do whatever free agents till well into the 90s and most of the stars from then were still on old long deals. Ewing signed for 10 years. Mullin I think 8. A lot of those guys....were NEVER gonna be free.

Patrick Ewing had to sue the Knicks for collusion with the rest of the NBA when they were trying to keep his salary down and not let him move.

And that was like....1993.

When we are judging people for taking cookies when nobody is looking or not.....ignoring that the supposedly honest guys never saw a cookie in their lives seems fairly insane.

The generation that came in free and clear of all this....no old CBA contracts....rookies on set deals not signing for 15 years like Webber or 10-12 years like the Larry Johnsons and Glenn Robinsons?

That's like....2000 on up. That's Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Melo, Amare, and so on. That's....the people you are calling out.

They are the first generation with the freedom to realistically accomplish these things. And unlike the old days....they have a huge influx of TV/internet money to help. THe 85 Lakers were never gonna have the cap space to sign the most coveted player in the league. The cap was like 4 million. Magic was 1 and change...Kareem was another 1.

Teams knew years ago they would have HUGE money this summer. They knew who would be free agents. They all have predictable stable contracts and the freedom to do as they wish.

And why is that? Because the people you praise so highly fought to give it to them.

If they had it....plenty would have moved around and teamed up. Which is why they kept suing and locking out to gain more and more freedom to do it....

[ILLsmak]

Cuz people look at stats and results. People realized at some point context doesn't matter. Sure, there would be naysayers but in the end... you get what you wanted.

You start out at UK or Duke or whatever... you have already been pampered. It's just a big training camp up until the nba anyway, so more than likely people don't develop rivalries the same as they did before. As well as people have everyone in their ear like it's a business, take care of your family, you brand, etc...

Like I said before, it comes when you think only about end result and ignore 'the path.' I think great coaches of old... like say John Wooden would say playing the right way is more important than winning, but now it's not. Winning is literally everything. Dudes would do anything to win. That's celebrated. MJ is celebrated for punching dudes or whatever to win, so why wouldn't we celebrate people who stack the odds in their favor?

I don't, but I can see why people do.

Edit: @ Wars, I still say **** off. You give a 73 win team cap space to sign a max player, some max player is gonna sign there. Why do people think that someone would be like gee nah I dunno... they got KD because he was the best available. Not because he was the only bitch who would sign with them. I bet any guy who didn't think he could win a ring with his team would do it.

-Smak

[bizil]

Cuz people look at stats and results. People realized at some point context doesn't matter. Sure, there would be naysayers but in the end... you get what you wanted.

You start out at UK or Duke or whatever... you have already been pampered. It's just a big training camp up until the nba anyway, so more than likely people don't develop rivalries the same as they did before. As well as people have everyone in their ear like it's a business, take care of your family, you brand, etc...

Like I said before, it comes when you think only about end result and ignore 'the path.' I think great coaches of old... like say John Wooden would say playing the right way is more important than winning, but now it's not. Winning is literally everything. Dudes would do anything to win. That's celebrated. MJ is celebrated for punching dudes or whatever to win, so why wouldn't we celebrate people who stack the odds in their favor?

I don't, but I can see why people do.

Edit: @ Wars, I still say **** off. You give a 73 win team cap space to sign a max player, some max player is gonna sign there. Why do people think that someone would be like gee nah I dunno... they got KD because he was the best available. Not because he was the only bitch who would sign with them. I bet any guy who didn't think he could win a ring with his team would do it.

-Smak


I don't blame GS for going after KD. If THEY DIDN'T, I would question their front office. But at the same time, KD was ALREADY on a team equipped to beat GS. KD in my book is the 2nd best player in the world. PEAK WISE a top 3 SF of all time. And a former MVP PLAYING with an MVP caliber player in Westbrook. AND TO TOP IT OFF, they had GS down 3 to 1. So competion mentality wise, I would think KD would want to stay with OKC to topple GS. OR maybe go to another team to topple them.

How fun would the NBA have been IF Bird went to the Lakers to join Magic. How about Doc joining the Celtics or Lakers if he could. How about MJ joining the Pistons if he could. In ALL THOSE CASES, those icons wouldn't have done that. BECAUSE they were already on teams BUILT AROUND THEM CAPBALE of winning a ring.

If ALL THE SUPERSTARS had the same mentality as KD, there would be VERY FEW IF ANY LEGIT rivalries in sports. KD is a grown ass man. So it's not about him leaving for another team. But as STUDENTS OF THE GAME, its OBVIOUS that this is the biggest case of superstar riding the bandwagon in AMERICAN SPORTS HISTORY!!!

No other case comes close in my opinion. If OKC lowballed KD on a contract offer somehow , I could see him going to GS to spite them. But that wasn't the case. Bron-Wade-Bosh and KG-Allen-Truth were totally different scenarios when they formed. It's all a matter of opinion though and GS will be fun to watch.

[tamaraw08]

Magic won a title his rookie year for Christ sake! Kobe won his first at the age of 21! How is that for, building from the ground up! My point is, you play for these big markets you're almost guaranteed success.

I think a better term is GREAT ORGANIZATION instead of "big Market"
Knicks has a big market and hasn't done squat. Spurs have a smaller market but had great people running the team.
If you get drafted by teams like the Kings right now, you are pretty much dead in terms of hoping in winning the ring.

[tamaraw08]

That's an AWESOME EXAMPLE!! No way in hell would Bron entertain that. The competitor in him wouldn't have allowed it. Bron wanted to FORM his own superteam to beat them. I could NEVER imagine MJ, Doc, Kobe, Magic, or Bird pulling the move KD did. It wasn't about KD leaving, it was about the team and manner he left in.

And that he did. :rockon: Forming his own super team, something that Kobe, MJ and every superstar didn't do.

[bizil]

And that he did. :rockon: Forming his own super team, something that Kobe, MJ and every superstar didn't do.

Kobe and MJ didn't HAVE TO because they were ALREADY ON TEAMS ready to win rings! When Bron left Cleveland, he had been there for seven years. And they were REGRESSING!! So I don't blame Bron AT ALL for going to Miami. And THE GOAL is to form the best team possible to win a ring! Bron CREATED his own squad with Bron and Bosh to win rings. In KD's case, he was joining a record breaking team who ALREADY WON A RING!

[aj1987]

And that he did. :rockon: Forming his own super team, something that Kobe, MJ and every superstar didn't do.
Bruh, Kobe had a top 5 GOAT in Shaq from his rookie season. Heck, even in his 17th season, the Lakers surrounded him with Dwight, Nash, and Pau. Dude was on bad teams for literally 2-3 seasons during his prime.


Kyrie as a rookie joined a 61-win team minus the coach and star players. Is he expected to win in this situation. NO!!!. Stop bullshitting and discrediting the real and competetive way of winning
You Google'd the wrong season, ****head. Time to abandon this account and switch to one of your dozens of alts.

[bdreason]

Because the media and public continue to push the narrative that winning is the only thing that matters. To the point that players start believing that how you win doesn't matter at all. It's not just professional basketball where this narrative exists. The American culture has become all about finding the easiest path to the top of the mountain.

[Young X]

Because Lebron did it. It's his fault why this shit is happening. I blame him 100%.

When a player of that caliber makes a weak move like that and it actually ends up benefiting him significantly it opens the flood gates for everybody.

[bizil]

Bruh, Kobe had a top 5 GOAT in Shaq from his rookie season. Heck, even in his 17th season, the Lakers surrounded him with Dwight, Nash, and Pau. Dude was on bad teams for literally 2-3 seasons during his prime.


You Google'd the wrong season, ****head. Time to abandon this account and switch to one of your dozens of alts.

Exactly right! Kobe was drafted into a tailor made situation to win rings! So he didn't have to look elsewhere. For a time, he was unhappy in LA, but he had already won rings by that point. LA turned and surrounded him around talent to win two more rings. In the case of Bron, it was a TOTALLY OPPOSITE situation from the jump.

[TommyGriffin]

LeBron started it with The Decision.

[BedroomBully]

I think a better term is GREAT ORGANIZATION instead of "big Market"
Knicks has a big market and hasn't done squat. Spurs have a smaller market but had great people running the team.
If you get drafted by teams like the Kings right now, you are pretty much dead in terms of hoping in winning the ring.
Good point. Before the Spurs, I strongly believe players would gravitate towards more lucrative destinations.

[egokiller]

At first there was backlash against it. But now a lot of the media and fans push for it. Don't the players care about their legacy anymore?

Players these days have a different mentality. Back then it was about showing that you as the man on your squad are a better leader than the next guy leading his squad. This is no longer, because players would rather join forces and take the easy way out.

[bizil]

I think all the hoopla around the decision was a bit much. BUT IN THEORY, Bron probably did all he could do in Cleveland at that time. He was already there 7 years. For some of the greats, that's ROUGHLY half of their career. The Cavs WERE REGRESSING! People forget that Bron tried to get Bosh to come to the Cavs. Bosh said BUMP THAT I want to go to Miami BECAUSE we can form a big 3. From there, Riley had the moxie to get all three together.

So I don't get why people compare Bron's decision to KD's. OKC was CLEARLY a team on the way up! Who added guys like Olidipo to the mix in the offseason. They had a 3-1 lead on GS!! OKC had injury problems in previous seasons that stopped them from reaching their potential.

KD was playing with another top 5 player in the world. If people weren't down with Bron's decision then fine! BUT u can't compare it to KD's decision!! KD's was MUCH MORE of jumping on the bandwagon. In Bron's case, the Heat weren't ANYWHERE CLOSE to winning a ring before he joined them.

[ILLsmak]

I think all the hoopla around the decision was a bit much. BUT IN THEORY, Bron probably did all he could do in Cleveland at that time. He was already there 7 years. For some of the greats, that's ROUGHLY half of their career. The Cavs WERE REGRESSING! People forget that Bron tried to get Bosh to come to the Cavs. Bosh said BUMP THAT I want to go to Miami BECAUSE we can form a big 3. From there, Riley had the moxie to get all three together.

So I don't get why people compare Bron's decision to KD's. OKC was CLEARLY a team on the way up! Who added guys like Olidipo to the mix in the offseason. They had a 3-1 lead on GS!! OKC had injury problems in previous seasons that stopped them from reaching their potential.

KD was playing with another top 5 player in the world. If people weren't down with Bron's decision then fine! BUT u can't compare it to KD's decision!! KD's was MUCH MORE of jumping on the bandwagon. In Bron's case, the Heat weren't ANYWHERE CLOSE to winning a ring before he joined them.

No matter what anyone says: KD and WB did not get along. It was some of the worst chemistry I've ever seen. Doesn't matter how good they were, you had to know KD was gonna bolt... do you think KD wasn't gonna bolt if it wasn't to GS? I think he was. No way to prove it, tho...

But I think he would have; he just got a great opportunity.

I disagree that KD's 'decision' and Brons were any different. I take huge offense to that suggestion. It's semantics. Different situations, sure, but dudes basically dipped out of a situation they didn't wanna be in and went to one that made them the favorite for years to come.

I think that's the whole thing nobody is getting. Awesome that the Thunder did as well as they did, but remember... KD and WB were not a good pair. They were both ballers, but they weren't a championship pair. What does it matter if you have more talent or less if you wanna win and you know you won't?

-Smak

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe and MJ didn't HAVE TO because they were ALREADY ON TEAMS ready to win rings!
MJ was drafted to a team ready to win championships?

:oldlol:

Scottie didn't become legit until 1990 to finally consistently help Mike out. That's his 6th season.

And even then Scottie's soft ass was busy coming down with migraines in pivotal moments when Finals appearances were within grasp. Pistons would bully him into submission.

[Mr Feeny]

MJ was drafted to a team ready to win championships?

:oldlol:

Scottie didn't become legit until 1990 to finally consistently help Mike out. That's his 6th season.

And even then Scottie's soft ass was busy coming down with migraines in pivotal moments when Finals appearances were within grasp. Pistons would bully him into submission.

You didn't adress the second part to his post?

Kobe jumped from the hornets to Los Angeles, rode Shaq's coattails to 3 titles which included 15 ppg 36%fg finals performances, and then cried and threw a tantrum on national television as he demanded a trade to Chicago when the Lakers were relatively weak.
Not wanting to spend another second with the Lakers, he openly told Steven a Smith that he'd even play on Pluto. Anywhere but the Lakers. Just trade me.

[bizil]

MJ was drafted to a team ready to win championships?

:oldlol:

Scottie didn't become legit until 1990 to finally consistently help Mike out. That's his 6th season.

And even then Scottie's soft ass was busy coming down with migraines in pivotal moments when Finals appearances were within grasp. Pistons would bully him into submission.

For starters, the Bulls were showing promise BEFORE 1990 in terms of being the team of the future. Secondly, the free agent climate and contracts was MUCH DIFFERENT back in the day.

And to top it off, I LOVE CLOWINING MOFOS like u! Bron left the Cavs AFTER seven years!!! When MJ won his FIRST RING, it was the 1990-1991 season. WHICH WAS HIS SEVENTH SEASON!!! I was comparing Bron's timeframe to MJ's timeframe when he left the Cavs.

But EVEN BEFORE MJ won his first ring, EVEN STEVIE WONDER could see the Bulls were gonna OWN THE EAST!!! When Bron left the Cavs, that squad was regressing!!! He didn't have a Pippen (who made his first All Star Game in the 1989-1990 season) to grow with. Pip was on the VERGE of redefining the SF position at that point!

So to FINISH U OFF, MJ AT LEAST had a Pippen to grow with BEFORE he even won a ring. Who did Bron HAVE TO GROW WITH???? Bron saw the landscape after seven years and made A DECISION THAT PAID OFF!!! MJ after seven years HAD A RING AND A FUTURE HOFer in PIP ALONGSIDE. BUT BEFORE THAT, the Bulls were gonna be the team of the future. It was just a matter of TIME!!!

I NEVER SAID MJ had a squad IMMEDIATELY after being drafted to win a ring. BUT MJ had a squad CAPABLE of winning a ring WAY BEFORE BRON DID! SO before u test me PUNK, learn how to comprehend SHIT!!!!

[bizil]

No matter what anyone says: KD and WB did not get along. It was some of the worst chemistry I've ever seen. Doesn't matter how good they were, you had to know KD was gonna bolt... do you think KD wasn't gonna bolt if it wasn't to GS? I think he was. No way to prove it, tho...

But I think he would have; he just got a great opportunity.

I disagree that KD's 'decision' and Brons were any different. I take huge offense to that suggestion. It's semantics. Different situations, sure, but dudes basically dipped out of a situation they didn't wanna be in and went to one that made them the favorite for years to come.

I think that's the whole thing nobody is getting. Awesome that the Thunder did as well as they did, but remember... KD and WB were not a good pair. They were both ballers, but they weren't a championship pair. What does it matter if you have more talent or less if you wanna win and you know you won't?

-Smak

I've said IN EARLIER POSTS that I don't blame KD for leaving OKC!!! Let's get that SHIT OUT THE WAY TO START WITH!!! But I gotta admit, an AMERICAN SUPERSTAR in team sports NEVER pulled the move KD did. KD is such a great player that I wanted him to go to another team to beat GS. Just off pride and competitive nature alone, many of us wanted to see that.

U say Westbrook and KD had HORRIBLE CHEMISTRY. But that could have been solved by MAYBE moving Westbrook to the SG. And have somebody else run the PG. KD said he loved playing with Russ. If he loved playing with Russ, their chemistry HAD TO BE AT LEAST very good. So was KD faking the funk in the press conferences? AT LEAST Kobe and Shaq were more open about their differences and parted ways! LOL Once again, I don't blame KD leaving OKC.

But I COULD NEVER IMAGINE Bird joining the Lakers if he could. OR MJ joining the Pistons if he could. Or Doc joining the Celtics if he could. WANNA KNOW WHY??? BECAUSE they were right ON THE CUSP of overtaking them to win a RING!!! And in ALL THE CASES I POINTED OUT, those ICONS WON RINGS!!!! So once again, I don't blame KD for leaving OKC. BUT it's the ultimate case of riding the bandwagon in American team sports for a superstar.

When Bron joined D Wade, Miami was regressing. When KD joined GS, GS took their heart and overcame a 3-1 deficit. GS had a two time MVP, had the all time regular season record, and won a ring a year prior. How ANYONE could compare that to what Bron did is INSANE TO ME!!!!

[CuhGetsBucks]

My only issue is that if superteams keep forming to winning championships and it's the same two teams competing every season for a championship, the NBA title kind of loses it's prestige where it looks more like the Bundesliga or La Liga.

[egokiller]

30 years from now guys who are in the top 10 are going to look like a joke. Even MJ who won on the stacked 96-98 stacked bulls and with the greatest coach will pale in comparison. Someone is going to be drafted on a mediocre team, have about as much talent as AI did on the 2001 76'ers, and just be so ****ing good that they go at least 7/7 like it's nothing. It's inevitable. People will look at guys like KD and Lebron who joined other superstars in their prime with disgust, and will poke fun at the morons who supported guys like KD, Lebron, and the like.

The conversation will be Jordan's first 3 chips vs this new players first 3, with arguments going back and forth about how the game has changed until said new player goes at least 7/7 and beyond with barely any supporting cast and then it will no longer even be a conversation. The argument will shift to how MJ was more marketable back then... Jordan shoes... etc etc.

So think about what you are posting and realize how absurd it's going to sound in 30 years or less. You don't want to be that guy that looks back on your past and is like "yep, I'm the dumb shit that thought KD and Lebron were players to think highly of"