Are big men without range a dying breed?

[BigKAT]

With the pace and space era deeply in motion, is it safe to say that Big men who can't hit a jump shot a dying breed?

The small ball of the last few years was invented imo by the Miami Heat, with the transition of Bosh (And his ever improving 3pt range) to Center.

It was then perfected by the Golden state warriors famous 'Death lineup'.
Now, small ball is not the subject, but it is a symptom of big men who can or can't shoot.

Coachs prefer to give up size for shooting, as seen with Draymond green at C, Paul George/KD at PF and players like Anthony Davis, Cousins and KAT picking up a 3 point shot.

Do you guys think this is a trend and soon we'll see Dwight Howards/Deandre Jordans and Drummonds return to being the majority and not the rule?

Side note:
All the last few top picks who were big men could at least hit a medium range shot,

Okafor, Porzingis, Towns, Turner and many others.

[Sarcastic]

It's correlated to big men without a post game.

[fourkicks44]

'Big Men' in general are a dying breed.

[BigKAT]

'Big Men' in general are a dying breed.

Well tall players can still thrive,

Durant, Giannis, Karl Anthony Towns and such.

[retaxis]

TT was the centre and he doesn't have range yet he played a much more important role in the championship than a stretch 4/5 in Love.

All this stretch talk is really just bs. Teams are just stacking it these days with 3 or 4 or even 5 all-star calibre players e.g. Durant/Klay/Dray/Steph/Iggy etc. Its not small ball or whatever, its simply putting as many all-star players on the court together as possible, something you couldn't do in the past.

I bet anything if you put a team of Lebron, Dwight Howard, Irving, Paul George and Melo, you could beat up the GSW without much issue.

[swagga]

It's correlated to big men without a post game.
amen.

[swagga]

TT was the centre and he doesn't have range yet he played a much more important role in the championship than a stretch 4/5 in Love.

All this stretch talk is really just bs. Teams are just stacking it these days with 3 or 4 or even 5 all-star calibre players e.g. Durant/Klay/Dray/Steph/Iggy etc. Its not small ball or whatever, its simply putting as many all-star players on the court together as possible, something you couldn't do in the past.

I bet anything if you put a team of Lebron, Dwight Howard, Irving, Paul George and Melo, you could beat up the GSW without much issue.

:biggums: :biggums:
they could beat up ANY team in history ... they'd even give '92 and '08 us teams serious runs.

[keep-itreal]

put Jahlil Okafor on a contender and you wouldn't be making this thread

[Jasper]

we would assume this because of the pase and outside shooting , but a team that uses a big efficeintly will have a place for him , as does rebounds and out let passes...

they have to run the floor better than they have , and that is hard for big guys .. ASK DIRK.

[BigKAT]

put Jahlil Okafor on a contender and you wouldn't be making this thread

I hope you're right.

Noel/Okafor really make me feel bad. I hope one of these two get traded to a situation that is going to be better for them, with less question marks.

But yeah, I'd love to see Big Men do well, just wondering if you guys are optimistic about their overall projections in the future.

[fourkicks44]

I hope you're right.

Noel/Okafor really make me feel bad. I hope one of these two get traded to a situation that is going to be better for them, with less question marks.

But yeah, I'd love to see Big Men do well, just wondering if you guys are optimistic about their overall projections in the future.

Why they make you feel bad, they getting paid aint they?

[ralph_i_el]

put Jahlil Okafor on a contender and you wouldn't be making this thread

Jahlil has a good J. He's a better off the dribble shooter than 99% of bigs right now too.


Players without J's are a dying breed in general, not just at the bigs. Teams basically expect their point guard to be an elite shooter, or they are considered a detriment (see: Rubio and Wall)

[Sarcastic]

Jahlil has a good J. He's a better off the dribble shooter than 99% of bigs right now too.


Players without J's are a dying breed in general, not just at the bigs. Teams basically expect their point guard to be an elite shooter, or they are considered a detriment (see: Rubio and Wall)


Yea, that's not true. Otherwise Jimmer Fredette would be in the NBA, and Rubio/Rondo/Wall/Rose/etc would be out of the league.

[ralph_i_el]

Yea, that's not true. Otherwise Jimmer Fredette would be in the NBA, and Rubio/Rondo/Wall/Rose/etc would be out of the league.


The talk about Rubio/Rondo/Wall's jumper hurting their teams has been ongoing for their entire careers.


I didn't say that anyone who can shoot is successful. I said that people expect guards to be elite shooters, and they ride them endlessly if they aren't.

Jimmer is a slow, no defense, team cancer. The only thing he does is shoot. Bad example

[ClipperRevival]

The last 2 finals indicate that it's more important for bigs to be able to defend the P&R in space rather than stretch defenses offensively. Someone mentioned Tristan Thompson. We all saw how well he defended when he cross matched and had to defend wings in space. And guys who couldn't (Bogut, Ezeli, Love) were deemed liabilities at times and didn't play for long stretches.

Another thing to consider is the possibility that the GSW type small ball might've been a one and done deal. They won in 2015 but lost nearly twice in 2016 to the more physical teams.

I think we are in the midst of the peak or near peak era for small ball before teams realize they can't win this way in the playoffs with the added physicality. GSW kind of caught the world by surprise in 2015 but I think the rest of the NBA is catching on now. If you get physical with them, you can affect them. There is also the fact that GSW did not have anyone who could create their own shot against set defenders and set defenses in the playoffs and that affected their offense too. Most of their players get their shots within the flow/rhythm of the game but sometimes you just need someone to get you a bucket when the D is set. But they do now have KD but he's also a guy who can get pushed around at times.

This game requires too much skills in different areas for a pace/space type ball to work forever. The league eventually adjusts and catches up. I see bigs making a comeback within the next 5 years. At some point, there will be too many guys down low who can dominate down low and teams will have to adjust.

Okafor is a guy who can REALLY accelerate this trend.

[BigKAT]

The last 2 finals indicate that it's more important for bigs to be able to defend the P&R in space rather than stretch defenses offensively. Someone mentioned Tristan Thompson. We all saw how well he defended when he cross matched and had to defend wings in space. And guys who couldn't (Bogut, Ezeli, Love) were deemed liabilities at times and didn't play for long stretches.

Another thing to consider is the possibility that the GSW type small ball might've been a one and done deal. They won in 2015 but lost nearly twice in 2016 to the more physical teams.

I think we are in the midst of the peak or near peak era for small ball before teams realize they can't win this way in the playoffs with the added physicality. GSW kind of caught the world by surprise in 2015 but I think the rest of the NBA is catching on now. If you get physical with them, you can affect them. There is also the fact that GSW did not have anyone who could create their own shot against set defenders and set defenses in the playoffs and that affected their offense too. Most of their players get their shots within the flow/rhythm of the game but sometimes you just need someone to get you a bucket when the D is set. But they do now have KD but he's also a guy who can get pushed around at times.

This game requires too much skills in different areas for a pace/space type ball to work forever. The league eventually adjusts and catches up. I see bigs making a comeback within the next 5 years. At some point, there will be too many guys down low who can dominate down low and teams will have to adjust.

Okafor is a guy who can REALLY accelerate this trend.

I agree.
Teams proved that in the Playoffs, where pretty much -everyone- try harder, offensive rebounds can really change a game.

And the Power Forward/Centers of the league have evolved to the point some can keep up with even the speediest point guards for short period of time, just enough to do the switch.

In fact, since the 'Small ball' arrived, it seems like the only antidote for it is relentless switching, as going after the guard leaves the stretch 4 for the dangerous pick and pop.

[Real Men Wear Green]

If we ever see a talent on par with Wilt and Shaq he will dominate even without a jumper. None of the bigs in the game today are scoring machines like those two were. But well-coordinated bigs aren't likely to fail to develop some kind of range. KAT or Anthony Davis could have made the league without the ability to shoot but these days everyone is encouraged to get a jumper so they did.

[sammichoffate]

League is now drive/penetrate or pick and roll heavy for threes or near the basket buckets. No, there's tons of bigs who can shoot very well (Both Gasols, KAT, Porzingis, Dirk, Aldridge, Davis, etc. because they play very well in PnR situations. If anything, the post-up game is dying from bigs because offenses would rather run motion for threes.

[Mawly-G]

Andre Drummond and DeAndre Jordan are doing just fine.

If only they could hit f*king freethrows, smh.

[Showtime80']

Wrong!!!

The post game started dying around the mid 90's, name another classic all-star level big mainly playing in the post that has come into the league after Tim Duncan in 1997!?!? THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO!!! Well before zones or the 3 point craze came into fruition.

The reason the post game has eroded so much is simple, IT IS HAAAAAAARD TO MASTER!!! Anybody with a decent shooting form can get 3 point range over a summer as the last few years have shown but tell a player, ANY PLAYER, to develop a Shaq, Olajuwon, McHale, Jordan or Kareem type post game in a summer and then see the results! Hell Dwight Howard and DeAndre Jordan have all the athleticism in the world and after all the years they've been in the league THEY STILL don't have even two simple post moves worth a crap!!! THEY NEVER PUT IN THE TIME DEVELOPING IT!!!!

The whole pace/space, 3 point bricking style of play is A REACTION to the death of the post play (and death of true PG play as well) instead of this new age revolutionary paradigm some geeks are making it out to be.

Put 1992 Shaq in this year's draft and he's the #1 pick bar none and without a doubt becomes a top 5 player in the league for sure all while making his living within 3 to 5 feet of the basket!

Teams would love to have classic back to basket dominant centers but there's just one little problem, THEY DON'T EXIST ANYMORE!!!

[Milbuck]

You can quite easily build a contender with a big who can't or won't shoot. Range isn't the problem. The top 3 teams last year all had bigs who were basically garbage men...TT on Cleveland, Adams on OKC, Bogut on GS...Bogut might be a bit above garbage man status because of his passing but overall he's not that far beyond it.

The problem comes when you have bigs who aren't great shooters AND suck defensively like Monroe, Okafor, Kanter, etc.

[tamaraw08]

The last 2 finals indicate that it's more important for bigs to be able to defend the P&R in space rather than stretch defenses offensively. Someone mentioned Tristan Thompson. We all saw how well he defended when he cross matched and had to defend wings in space. And guys who couldn't (Bogut, Ezeli, Love) were deemed liabilities at times and didn't play for long stretches.

Another thing to consider is the possibility that the GSW type small ball might've been a one and done deal. They won in 2015 but lost nearly twice in 2016 to the more physical teams.

I think we are in the midst of the peak or near peak era for small ball before teams realize they can't win this way in the playoffs with the added physicality. GSW kind of caught the world by surprise in 2015 but I think the rest of the NBA is catching on now. If you get physical with them, you can affect them. There is also the fact that GSW did not have anyone who could create their own shot against set defenders and set defenses in the playoffs and that affected their offense too. Most of their players get their shots within the flow/rhythm of the game but sometimes you just need someone to get you a bucket when the D is set. But they do now have KD but he's also a guy who can get pushed around at times.

This game requires too much skills in different areas for a pace/space type ball to work forever. The league eventually adjusts and catches up. I see bigs making a comeback within the next 5 years. At some point, there will be too many guys down low who can dominate down low and teams will have to adjust.

Okafor is a guy who can REALLY accelerate this trend.
Great point on the bolded. Let me also add Channing Frye who was a good shooter and yet couldn't defend....
Yes Okafor has the ability to accelerate this trend but belonging to a team that is not in a hurry to be a great team can hamper his chances. Put him in San Antonio and this guy would be awesome imo.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Okafor has showed great range last year as a teenager

His shooting is only going to improve

[fourkicks44]

Wrong!!!

The post game started dying around the mid 90's, name another classic all-star level big mainly playing in the post that has come into the league after Tim Duncan in 1997!?!? THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO!!! Well before zones or the 3 point craze came into fruition.

The reason the post game has eroded so much is simple, IT IS HAAAAAAARD TO MASTER!!! Anybody with a decent shooting form can get 3 point range over a summer as the last few years have shown but tell a player, ANY PLAYER, to develop a Shaq, Olajuwon, McHale, Jordan or Kareem type post game in a summer and then see the results! Hell Dwight Howard and DeAndre Jordan have all the athleticism in the world and after all the years they've been in the league THEY STILL don't have even two simple post moves worth a crap!!! THEY NEVER PUT IN THE TIME DEVELOPING IT!!!!

The whole pace/space, 3 point bricking style of play is A REACTION to the death of the post play (and death of true PG play as well) instead of this new age revolutionary paradigm some geeks are making it out to be.

Put 1992 Shaq in this year's draft and he's the #1 pick bar none and without a doubt becomes a top 5 player in the league for sure all while making his living within 3 to 5 feet of the basket!

Teams would love to have classic back to basket dominant centers but there's just one little problem, THEY DON'T EXIST ANYMORE!!!

That is a very interesting take. I agree 100%. It is much harder to play the post than jack a 3. Easier to be there alone at the park or in the gym working out, also jacking a 3.

I also thing part of Dwight's problem is he never went to college hence never got critical coaching he needed to get a post game (see also James, Lebron).

So I think the whole straight from high school era also has a part to play in the death of the post up big men. You go back to the 80's and earlier and you had dominate big men that did four years in a stronger (in terms of talent concentration) NCAA system getting specific coaching on their post fundamentals. They would then get to the NBA playing against star big men who years earlier had already done what they had, and had spent years in the league PERFECTING their post play against the best in the world. The cycle would then continue. To top that all off, Centers would always be what lottery teams looked to draft first.

How many years of college did Tim Duncan do again?

[GimmeThat]

I think it has something to do with players risking on their dribbling skills and not have the ball stolen, in comparison to not getting their shot blocked.

[Hey Yo]

Wrong!!!

The post game started dying around the mid 90's, name another classic all-star level big mainly playing in the post that has come into the league after Tim Duncan in 1997!?!? THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO!!! Well before zones or the 3 point craze came into fruition.
Yao Ming

[WolfGang]

I hate when big men shoot threes. Players like Davis, Frank Kaminsky, Giannis, Cousins and Durant need to focus more on mid to far-midrange shots...like Dirk.

[BigKAT]

I hate when big men shoot threes. Players like Davis, Frank Kaminsky, Giannis, Cousins and Durant need to focus more on mid to far-midrange shots...like Dirk.

I think players like Ibaka actually suffered from gaining range.
Or at least their image did.

[SexSymbol]

at this point, I would want a center who couldn't hit from range for the sole reason that he would stay inside. If he could hit FTs, then it would be perfect.
Too many guys are going outside, even loser dwight is trying to shape up his range game which is just downright stupid for him.

[FKAri]

Wrong!!!

The post game started dying around the mid 90's, name another classic all-star level big mainly playing in the post that has come into the league after Tim Duncan in 1997!?!? THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO!!!
There have been several All-star level. Maybe you mean superstar level? I'd say Yao and Dwight were superstars. Maybe Bynum and Oden could've been and Pau was just short of being called a superstar.

[retaxis]

The only reasonable reason I see big men not playing in the post as much is because of what they have to do defensively these days.

Say you got a Shaq in his prime playing today. Every team is going to make Shaq defend the PNR every time and its going to wear him down physically and get him into foul trouble. Then Shaq will have difficulty beating double teams because he is in foul trouble and worn out.

Its not so much what is happening on the offensive end that is revolutionary but more so what is happening on the defensive end that is changing the NBA.

[ClipperRevival]

Great point on the bolded. Let me also add Channing Frye who was a good shooter and yet couldn't defend....
Yes Okafor has the ability to accelerate this trend but belonging to a team that is not in a hurry to be a great team can hamper his chances. Put him in San Antonio and this guy would be awesome imo.

Forgot about Frye, who is like the protypical "stretch 4" but he couldn't get on the court because of his D.

[jstern]

Why are all of the OPs topics stickied. It's weird, it's been like that for days.

[sammichoffate]

The only reasonable reason I see big men not playing in the post as much is because of what they have to do defensively these days.

Say you got a Shaq in his prime playing today. Every team is going to make Shaq defend the PNR every time and its going to wear him down physically and get him into foul trouble. Then Shaq will have difficulty beating double teams because he is in foul trouble and worn out.

Its not so much what is happening on the offensive end that is revolutionary but more so what is happening on the defensive end that is changing the NBA.That wouldn't work come playoff time when the game slows down, and having Shaq would make the game slow down even faster.

[G-train]

To answer OP: No, there is still a large amount of big men without range in the NBA.
In fact, the All NBA First Team center air balls shot more than 4 feet away.

[G-train]

Why are all of the OPs topics stickied. It's weird, it's been like that for days.

Yes, weird.

[G-train]

Say you got a Shaq in his prime playing today. Every team is going to make Shaq defend the PNR every time and its going to wear him down physically and get him into foul trouble. Then Shaq will have difficulty beating double teams because he is in foul trouble and worn out.


I disagree, as they tried to do that when Shaq played. Shaq was an alltime great player, and from 99-2002 was as good as anyone ever. Every tactic was tried and they failed.

I wouldn't bring Shaq into the convo, as he was a glitch in the matrix.

[BigKAT]

I disagree, as they tried to do that when Shaq played. Shaq was an alltime great player, and from 99-2002 was as good as anyone ever. Every tactic was tried and they failed.

I wouldn't bring Shaq into the convo, as he was a glitch in the matrix.


Yes, definetly true.
In fact, I'm not sure range would've served Shaq so well.
Any second spent outside of the paint could've been a waste for him.

Some even argue that Ibaka's range and 3pt tendency made him less effective for OKC.