Dirk or Kobe, All Time?

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe: 29/8/4/2/1 on 41% FG/53% TS, 4 TO's per game

Dirk: 26/10/2/1/1 on 42% FG/54% TS, 3 TO's per game

Factoring in stats as well as defense, performance in the clutch, opponent etc, which would you guys choose?

[ArbitraryWater]

pls dont insult Dirk

Had the most clutch finals series ever, in raw and advanced stats

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe.

2 rebounds less, while being much smaller. More assists and playmaking. Better defense.

Bryant was also facing a superior defense. Particularly on ball when guarded by Tony Allen. Or doubled with Ray Allen. Who to this day is still pretty much the best on ball defender in the NBA. Guy locks up whoever. Tough as nails.

Also Kobe guarded Rondo and Ray Allen. Which was more difficult than Dirk being hidden on the likes of Haslem or Joel Anthony.

Dallas faced a Heat team that beat themselves. A team that imploded because some sort of dysfunction between LeBron's effort level, disinterest, quitting and the rest of the team.

2010 Celtics were a better version of the one the Heat beat the next year. And a way better version than the one the Heat struggled with in 2012. When they were on their absolute last legs.

As for Kobe and Dirk's help offensively?

Lakers
P. Gasol 19 ppg
Artest 11 ppg
Fisher 9 ppg

Mavericks
J. Terry 18 ppg
S. Marion 14 ppg
T. Chandler 10 ppg

So Dirk got slightly better offensive help.

[Mr Feeny]

This can't be serious :oldlol:
It's not the guy who shot 40% in the series and stunk up the place and nearly single cost the series by putting on one of the worst game 7 performances in nba history with 6/24:oldlol:
It's dirk by a country mile.

[Young X]

This can't be serious :oldlol:
It's not the guy who shot 40% in the series and stunk up the place and nearly single cost the series by putting on one of the worst game 7 performances in nba history with 6/24:oldlol:
It's dirk by a country mile.Bad argument when Nowitzki went like 9/27 in game 6 and got bailed out by Jason Terry.

Stop hating.

[IllegalD]

This can't be serious :oldlol:
It's not the guy who shot 40% in the series and stunk up the place and nearly single cost the series by putting on one of the worst game 7 performances in nba history with 6/24:oldlol:
It's dirk by a country mile.


Dirk shot 41.6 % in the finals and shot 9/27 (33%) in Game 6. :facepalm

EXPOSED, b*tch!

:banana: :lol

[JT123]

Dirk shot 41.6 % in the finals and shot 9/27 (33%) in Game 6. :facepalm

EXPOSED, b*tch!

:banana: :lol
And both percentages are STILL better than what Kobe shot against a bunch of old men. :banana: :yaohappy: :hammertime:

[Mr Feeny]

Dirk shot 41.6 % in the finals and shot 9/27 (33%) in Game 6. :facepalm

EXPOSED, b*tch!

:banana: :lol

In other words, it WASNT an elimination game and he has margin for error bc he put the mavs up 3-2?:eek:

Alright then :lebronamazed:

[Mr Feeny]

And both percentages are STILL better than what Kobe shot against a bunch of old men. :banana: :yaohappy: :hammertime:

Oh my goodness!! :roll:

[Doranku]

Kobe actually played very well in that 2010 series outside of game 7, where he still managed to have 23/15.

Still probably give the edge to Dirk though based on how he played in pivotal moments during the series. Dude really found a way to capitalize when it mattered all playoffs long it felt like.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Bad argument when Nowitzki went like 9/27 in game 6 and got bailed out by Jason Terry.

Stop hating.
Seriously. Finally an adult posts besides the children LeBron fan club. How quickly they forget. Dirk's 2011 Finals is so overrated .

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe actually played very well in that 2010 series outside of game 7, where he still managed to have 23/15.

Still probably give the edge to Dirk though based on how he played in pivotal moments during the series. Dude really found a way to capitalize when it mattered all playoffs long it felt like.

How refreshing to see a Kobe fan admit that! :applause:

Respect :rockon:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Some retard with an agenda actually said Dirk > Kobe all-time today ...

So I want to know what the rest of ISH thinks.

LeBron stans please try to limit your posts to just your main account, no sock accounts to try to boost his reputation to validate or excuse LeBron's massive 2011 failure.

[ArbitraryWater]

Tough one, going with Dirk

Good thread OP

[SouBeachTalents]

Dirk has absolutely no argument over Kobe all time. What's AW's argument?

[ArbitraryWater]

Bad argument when Nowitzki went like 9/27 in game 6 and got bailed out by Jason Terry.

Stop hating.

In what was is 9-27 close to 6-24? :oldlol: Stop hating, fool

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk has absolutely no argument over Kobe all time. What's AW's argument?

Huh? Being a better, more productive playoff performer, elimination game, game 7, and 4th quarter player? More impactful, easier going leader, whom teammates more easily shine next to? A superior offensive thread with his spacing creation? FAR better longevity which is ALREADY Kobe's calling card?

Lol at no argument.. get real bro.

[Naero]

I'd give Dirk the comfortable edge here.

Yes, Kobe faced a much feistier defense and Dirk had his woeful shooting stretches, too, but that isn't enough to contextualize who had the more effectual impact on their teams.

When Dirk went into his shooting doldrums, he at least was playing team-systematic basketball; Kobe, on the other hand, wasn't nearly as shot-selective and thus struggled to his team's detriment. Dirk's cold-handed shooting didn't have any good immediate impact on his team, either, but he did have a better residual impact by letting his team's offense flow instead of being subjugated by his own shot-shocking; the on- and off-court differentials for Dirk that series proves that, as he was still sorely missed whenever he was benched.

Moreover, while their scoring efficiencies are important, it's even more paramount to consider when they scored their points; Dirk easily wins in that regard, as he consistently came up big down the stretch--a microcosm of his magical post-season run.

Three of the Mavericks' wins entailed huge fourth-quarter comebacks, which Miami was visibly demoralized from--especially LeBron, who went into his infamous funk for the rest of the series after the 15-point mid-fourth-quarter collapse in Game 2. Without Dirk's clutch-play, the Mavericks easily would have been swept.

Kobe was still easily the better-overall Finals-performer, but I have no problem giving Dirk the nod here.

[bigkingsfan]

4-0 VS Kobe

[ArbitraryWater]

I'd give Dirk the comfortable edge here.

Yes, Kobe faced a much feistier defense and Dirk had his woeful shooting stretches, too, but that isn't enough to contextualize who had the more effectual impact on their teams.

When Dirk went into his shooting doldrums, he at least was playing team-systematic basketball; Kobe, on the other hand, wasn't nearly as shot-selective and thus struggled to his team's detriment. Dirk's cold-handed shooting didn't have any good immediate impact on his team, either, but he did have a better residual impact by letting his team's offense flow instead of being subjugated by his own shot-shocking; the on- and off-court differentials for Dirk that series proves that, as he was still sorely missed whenever he was benched.

Moreover, while their scoring efficiencies are important, it's even more paramount to consider when they scored their points; Dirk easily wins in that regard, as he consistently came up big down the stretch--a microcosm of his magical post-season run.

Three of the Mavericks' wins entailed huge fourth-quarter comebacks, which Miami was visibly demoralized from--especially LeBron, who went into his infamous funk for the rest of the series after the 15-point mid-fourth-quarter collapse in Game 2. Without Dirk's clutch-play, the Mavericks easily would have been swept.

Kobe was still easily the better-overall Finals-performer, but I have no problem giving Dirk the nod here.

Besides the last paragraph (Kobe played at 2010 level for most of his finals series') :applause: :applause: :applause:

[BigKAT]

Kobe.

[SamuraiSWISH]

In what was is 9-27 close to 6-24? :oldlol: Stop hating, fool
One shot 25% ... The other 33%. Both are terrible.

One faced a game 7 do or die elimination game where EVERYONE shot poorly, and was a defensive affair.

One got carried by another player all game. Significantly. Out scored and everything.

One was his team's leading scorer.

Oh and the small guard out rebounded the 7 foot Flower Foward.

[ArbitraryWater]

4-0 VS Kobe

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/716754/b569o_medium.jpg

[Mr Feeny]

33% is better than 25%. So....less terrible. Which is the point. That's the comparison.

If this is too confusing for you, allow to me to dumb it down.

[ArbitraryWater]

33% is better than 25%. So....less terrible. Which is the point. That's the comparison.

If this is too confusing for you, allow to me to dumb it down.

Go over there and paint that fool a picture :oldlol: He dont understand

[Naero]

:wtf:

How did this even merit turning into a discussion?

Kobe is easily the more well-accomplished and skilled player; even some of the more rabid Kobe-detractors on this site--which says much, considering how much of a cesspool this has turned into--would be scared to argue otherwise.

The only conceivable argument he has over Kobe is impact-wise; I'll give him that much, especially considering how much the Mavericks languished whenever he was sidelined in the championship 2010-11 season. However, Dirk has shrunk in too many big moments--namely the playoffs, where one's stock can really pivot on--that I'd be hesitant to draft him over Kobe.

[Mr Feeny]

What's their playoff h2h folks?

Thanks

[ArbitraryWater]

:wtf:

How did this even merit turning into a discussion?

Kobe is easily the more well-accomplished and skilled player; even some of the more rabid Kobe-detractors on this site--which says much, considering how much of a cesspool this has turned into--would be scared to argue otherwise.

The only conceivable argument he has over Kobe is impact-wise; I'll give him that much, especially considering how much the Mavericks languished whenever he was sidelined in the championship 2010-11 season. However, Dirk has shrunk in too many big moments--namely the playoffs, where one's stock can really pivot on--that I'd be hesitant to draft him over Kobe.

Kobe has more off series' than any top 15 ATG ever, so many off series' its hard to call them an off series anymore :wtf:

From '00-'04 he shot 44% or below in every but one playoff run :oldlol: :facepalm

[IllegalD]

Dirk Nowitzki (September 6th, 2006):

"It was bitter that Kobe Bryant got injured. His presence alone would have been enough to win the tournament. That's the level I see him on. To me he is the best player in the world right now. That guy doesn't know fear at all. He doesn't care. He would have won it for the Americans single-handedly."

Source:
http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/2247/dirk-nowitzki-says-kobe-bryant-would-have-changed-everything




Dirk Nowitzki (March 3rd, 2008):

“To me, he’s the best player in the league. They’re the best team right now, so he definitely deserves it (the MVP).”

Source:

http://sportsreport.freedomblogging.com/2008/03/03/the-scene-kobe-gets-dirk%e2%80%99s-vote/

http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=57174





Dirk Nowitzki (March 18th, 2008):

[on 2008 MVP]

“That's tough. LeBron certainly has a case in the East. On the Celtics, KG has had a great year. And in the West, to me it's been Kobe, the way he's been scoring, really setting the tone every night for his team, and to me he's the best player in the league anyway, scoring-wise and all-around player. I'd probably give it to Kobe. Those three definitely deserve it.”

Source:
http://www.insidehoops.com/dirk-says-kobe-031808.shtml





Dirk Nowitzki (March 28th, 2008):

[on Kobe 2008 MVP]

"He's the best player in the game and he's never won it before. He's had his injuries, his team [has] had injuries and they're still right up there in the West. They just beat us without [Pau] Gasol and [Andrew] Bynum. I think this is his time."

Source:
http://www.espn.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-080715test





Dirk Nowitzki (December 17th, 2014):

“He’s probably the greatest player in my generation that I played against. Obviously Shaq was very dominant, Tim Duncan was great, but I just loved watching Kobe. I don’t think there will ever be another MJ, but he’s definitely as close as it gets that we’ll ever see.

Source:
http://www.espn.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4704056/dirk-kobe-greatest-player-in-my-generation





Dirk Nowitzki (November 30th, 2015):

"To me, he’s probably the greatest player I’ve faced. And I’ve faced some great players with Tim Duncan and Shaq and all these guys. But he was something else, just scoring-wise, the shot-making ability was incredible. I was always a big fan.”

Source:
http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-mavericks/mavericksheadlines/2015/11/30/dirk-nowitzki-feeling-old-kobes-announcement





Dirk Nowitzki (January 26th, 2016):

“Like I said this entire time, he’s our Michael Jordan for my generation. He is one of the best to lace them up, and it’s been a pleasure and an honor to compete against him basically almost my entire career.

Source:
http://www.nba.com/lakers/news/160413_kobepeers?cid=tw
https://youtu.be/PUca7OUzIEg

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe has more off series' than any top 15 ATG ever, so many off series' its hard to call them an off series anymore :wtf:

From '00-'04 he shot 44% or below in every but one playoff run :oldlol: :facepalm

Oh my goodness!

What's their career playoffs h2h btw?

[BigKAT]

Oh my goodness!

What's their career playoffs h2h btw?


I think Duncan has a better h2h vs Lebron.

I still have Lebron ranked higher.

So yeah.

[Young X]

In what was is 9-27 close to 6-24? :oldlol: Stop hating, foolThe point is they were both bad and got bailed out in their closeout games.

Dirk was like 1-11 in the first half or some shit and the only thing that kept Dallas in the game was Terry.

I'm not saying which one was better but you can't mention one without the other.

[Sarcastic]

Dirk is top 25, borderline top 20 tier.

Kobe is well ahead of that tier.

[Bankaii]

This is getting ridiculous.

Even if you somehow hate Kobe to the core, at the very worst he's top 11.
Dirk has no argument for top 15. None at all.

[ArbitraryWater]

The point is they were both bad and got bailed out in their closeout games.

Dirk was like 1-11 in the first half or some shit and the only thing that kept Dallas in the game was Terry.

I'm not saying which one was better but you can't mention one without the other.

One is demonstrably worse, so yeah you kinda can.. check out Naero's post for some of the finer details.

[JT123]

What's their playoff h2h folks?

Thanks
Kobe stans still avoiding this question like the plague :lol

[Doranku]

What's LeBron's h2h with Timmy?

[J Shuttlesworth]

This is getting ridiculous.

Even if you somehow hate Kobe to the core, at the very worst he's top 11.
Dirk has no argument for top 15. None at all.
This

[Mr Feeny]

The point is they were both bad and got bailed out in their closeout games.

Dirk was like 1-11 in the first half or some shit and the only thing that kept Dallas in the game was Terry.

I'm not saying which one was better but you can't mention one without the other.

The point is one is worse than the other. That's the comparison.
As a.w. said, one is demonstrably worse. Case closed.

This isn't rocket science.

[ArbitraryWater]

Its so close between the two..

2000: Draw
2001: Kobe
2002: Draw
2003: Draw
2004: Dirk
2005: Dirk by a mile
2006: Dirk
2007: Draw
2008: Kobe
2009: Draw
2010: Dirk
2011: Dirk
2012: Draw
2013: Kobe
2014: Dirk by a MILE
2015: Dirk by a MILE
2016: Dirk by a MILE

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe stans still avoiding this question like the plague :lol:roll: :roll:

[JT123]

Its so close between the two..

2000: Draw
2001: Kobe
2002: Draw
2003: Draw
2004: Dirk
2005: Dirk by a mile
2006: Dirk
2007: Draw
2008: Kobe
2009: Draw
2010: Dirk
2011: Dirk
2012: Draw
2013: Kobe
2014: Dirk by a MILE
2015: Dirk by a MILE
2016: Dirk by a MILE
Holy shit Kobe was only better than Dirk during 3 seasons?! :eek:
Looks like my idol is now 13be :(

[GrapeApe]

Dirk's 2011 playoff run as a whole was all-time great, but his finals performance IS a bit overrated. If Lebron shows up in the 4th quarter, the Heat probably sweep the series. I'd still give him a slight edge over 2010 Kobe, but saying that Kobe was better is not as outlandish as it might appear on the surface.

[BigKAT]

Holy shit Kobe was only better than Dirk during 3 seasons?! :eek:
Looks like my idol is now 13be :(

You are an elegant soul.
I can see the pain you go through, yet you're still so humble in recognizing your Idol is not perfect.

:applause:

[Sarcastic]

Kobe stans still avoiding this question like the plague :lol

Curry is 7-6 vs Lebron, so he's better?

[JT123]

Curry is 7-6 vs Lebron, so he's better?
Difference is Lebron was a HUGE underdog in both series, due to Curry clearly having the better team. Unfortunately we can't say the same in regards to Kobe and Dirk. The Lakers were essentially unanimous favorites in that 2011 series, yet Kobe let Dirk stick a broom up his ass. :banghead:

[Sarcastic]

Difference is Lebron was a HUGE underdog in both series, due to Curry clearly having the better team. Unfortunately we can't say the same in regards to Kobe and Dirk. The Lakers were essentially unanimous favorites in that 2011 series, yet Kobe let Dirk stick a broom up his ass. :banghead:

Dirk was also 4-2 vs Lebron that year, and Miami was the unanimous favorite. Sooooo....

[Bankaii]

Its so close between the two..

2000: Draw
2001: Kobe
2002: Draw
2003: Draw
2004: Dirk
2005: Dirk by a mile
2006: Dirk
2007: Draw
2008: Kobe
2009: Draw
2010: Dirk
2011: Dirk
2012: Draw
2013: Kobe
2014: Dirk by a MILE
2015: Dirk by a MILE
2016: Dirk by a MILE
Kobe was clearly better in 2003 and 2006. Most people would choose him for 2009 and 2010 too.

Dude has no argument over Kobe at all.

[Sarcastic]

Kobe is 15th all time in MVP shares. Dirk is 23rd. I think that's pretty reflective of their standings.

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe is 15th all time in MVP shares. Dirk is 23rd. I think that's pretty reflective of their standings.

Kobe is 55th all time in ws/48 while dirk is 35 spots higher at 20:roll:
Dirk also has the higher career PER and is 21st all time while the scrub is 23rd:roll:

PER: Dirk 21st. Kobe 23rd all time
WS/48 : Dirk 20th. Kobe 55th
Winshares: Dirk 7th. Kobe 18th

Playoffs:

PER: Dirk 9th. Kobe 22nd
Ws/48: Dirk 17th. Kobe 53rd



:roll:

[JT123]

Kobe is 55th all time in ws/48 while dirk is 35 spots higher at 20:roll:
Dirk also has the higher career PER and is 21st all time while the scrub is 23rd:roll:

PER: Dirk 21st. Kobe 23rd all time
WS/48 : Dirk 20th. Kobe 55th
Winshares: Dirk 7th. Kobe 18th

Playoffs:

PER: Dirk 9th. Kobe 22nd
Dirk >>>>> Kobe :(
I really wish my fellow Kobe stans would stop trying to overrate him. The only thing they are doing is exposing how inferior our idol is

[IllegalD]

LeBron Stans avoiding all the Dirk quotes like a plague.

They are so shook right now.

:banana: :roll: :lol

[Mr Feeny]

Dirk >>>>> Kobe :(
I really wish my fellow Kobe stans would stop trying to overrate him. The only thing they are doing is exposing how inferior our idol is

A Kobe fan being refreshingly honest and admiring himself that dirk 》 kobe
Respect :cheers: :applause:

[Mr Feeny]

Dear ish. Long time Kobe Bryant fan JT123 has admitted that dirk crushes him alltime.

Link:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12595152&postcount=29

[GrapeApe]

I've never seen anyone argue that Dirk is a top 15 all-time player. In contrast, I've never seen anyone (legitimately) argue that Kobe is outside the top 15. That basically sums up this debate, meaning there really is no debate.

[bigkingsfan]

Kobe Bryant: "I freaking suck"

[Real14]

Kobe of course. People these dayz:facepalm

[Mr Feeny]

Agree with everyone that Dirk 》 kobe.

[Real14]

Mods? This thread definitely needs to be deleted.

[IllegalD]

Dirk Nowitzki (September 6th, 2006):

"It was bitter that Kobe Bryant got injured. His presence alone would have been enough to win the tournament. That's the level I see him on. To me he is the best player in the world right now. That guy doesn't know fear at all. He doesn't care. He would have won it for the Americans single-handedly."

Source:
http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/2247/dirk-nowitzki-says-kobe-bryant-would-have-changed-everything




Dirk Nowitzki (March 3rd, 2008):

[B][I]

[JT123]

I tried to deny it for years, but when intelligent and unbiased posters like Feeny lay out all the facts right in front of you...:(
Still no shame in being 13th all time I suppose

[Mr Feeny]

Since we care about opinions, if even the most hardcore Kobe stan out there - JT123 - admits that Dirk 》 Kobe, that's settled.

:applause:

[JT123]

Mods? This thread definitely needs to be deleted.
Why you trying to snitch. I thought you were supposed to be REAL :coleman:

[Real14]

Why you trying to snitch. I thought you were supposed to be REAL :coleman: I am REAL Lil niguh:biggums: and you being a Kobe fan is definitely not REAL LeBron stan:coleman:

[Young X]

Kobe's performance was not "demonstrably worse".

But arguing with you two on a subject like this is a waste of time.

When you're that biased you'll never see the other side of the argument.

[Nilocon165]

:facepalm

I know it's probably just a troll but wtf

Atleast be objective and not do everything possible to confirm that Lebron > Kobe.

That was decided awhile ago

[BigKAT]

Thank you.

[Real14]

Mods? I sense another agenda thread here.

[Mr Feeny]

Long term Kobe stan JT123 admits Dirk > Kobe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12595152&postcount=29)
It's not us. Real Kobe stans are admitting this themselves ?:applause:

[NBAGOAT]

dirk has no case unless you think he has GOAT level offensive impact(top 5 at least) which a few people do but most don't. kg and malone have better cases even if I and most people don't have them above Kobe and they're not even necessarily above dirk all time.

[Nilocon165]

Long term Kobe stan JT123 admits Dirk > Kobe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12595152&postcount=29)
It's not us. Real Kobe stans are admitting this themselves ?:applause:
Listen Feeny,
I like you, you're a good poster, but do you honestly think this stuff is still funny?

[Sarcastic]

Dirk wasn't even the best player in that series. Wade was.

[KiiiiNG]

I am REAL Lil niguh:biggums: and you being a Kobe fan is definitely not REAL LeBron stan:coleman:
Get your 30 year old black ass off these forums and get a job. I swear to God LeBron haters are the biggest losers on Earth... low IQ scum

[Real14]

Another agenda thread. Kobe played against a better team with better leadership that didn't choke very bad. Plus Kobe played with 9 fingers those finals. End of story.

[Real14]

Get your 30 year old black ass off these forums and get a job. I swear to God LeBron haters are the biggest losers on Earth... low IQ scum
I have a job u bitch ass delinquent. You used to hate Lebron, what happened?? You're not keeping it REAL.

[KiiiiNG]

I have a job u bitch ass delinquent. You used to hate Lebron, what happened?? You're not keeping it REAL.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=417138

Get a life you trolling, black homo.

[JT123]

Get your 30 year old black ass off these forums and get a job. I swear to God LeBron haters are the biggest losers on Earth... low IQ scum
:lol :lol :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Good on you, JT :applause: More light has be brought to this fact

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe is 55th all time in ws/48 while dirk is 35 spots higher at 20:roll:
Dirk also has the higher career PER and is 21st all time while the scrub is 23rd:roll:

PER: Dirk 21st. Kobe 23rd all time
WS/48 : Dirk 20th. Kobe 55th
Winshares: Dirk 7th. Kobe 18th

Playoffs:

PER: Dirk 9th. Kobe 22nd
Ws/48: Dirk 17th. Kobe 53rd



:roll:

mother of god, you did it again :applause:

Of course, usng the combination of advanced stats, Dirk tops out higher than Kobe... theres little left to deny his superiority besides 'RINGZ!'..

[Wally450]

I don't even like Kobe but, Kobe >>>>>> Dirk All Time.

[ArbitraryWater]

I've never seen anyone argue that Dirk is a top 15 all-time player. In contrast, I've never seen anyone (legitimately) argue that Kobe is outside the top 15. That basically sums up this debate, meaning there really is no debate.

what the fck

coaches and former players have said this

he's top 15 on the RGM ranking, too, btw

[JT123]

Even though this pushes Kobe out of the top 12 I am glad the knowledgeable posters of this forum like Mr Feeny are doing the research to get things right. :applause:

[Nilocon165]

It's not the fcking general consensus

Barely anybody actually believes Dirk > Kobe

[JT123]

It's not the fcking general consensus

Barely anybody actually believes Dirk > Kobe
Other than "5 rangz" what argument does Kobe have over Dirk? :confusedshrug:

[Nilocon165]

Other than "5 rangz" what argument does Kobe have over Dirk? :confusedshrug:
What argument does Dirk have over Kobe?

[JT123]

What argument does Dirk have over Kobe?
Credit to Mr Feeny

Kobe is 55th all time in ws/48 while dirk is 35 spots higher at 20
Dirk also has the higher career PER and is 21st all time while the scrub is 23rd

PER: Dirk 21st. Kobe 23rd all time
WS/48 : Dirk 20th. Kobe 55th
Winshares: Dirk 7th. Kobe 18th

Playoffs:

PER: Dirk 9th. Kobe 22nd
Ws/48: Dirk 17th. Kobe 53rd

[Sarcastic]

Credit to Mr Feeny

Kobe is 55th all time in ws/48 while dirk is 35 spots higher at 20
Dirk also has the higher career PER and is 21st all time while the scrub is 23rd

PER: Dirk 21st. Kobe 23rd all time
WS/48 : Dirk 20th. Kobe 55th
Winshares: Dirk 7th. Kobe 18th

Playoffs:

PER: Dirk 9th. Kobe 22nd
Ws/48: Dirk 17th. Kobe 53rd



According to WS/48 David Robinson, Chris Paul, and Neil Johnston > Lebron James.

According to Win Shares, both Stockton and Malone are top 5.

[BigKAT]

You're better then this, Lebron Fam.


You're better then this.

[ArbitraryWater]

According to WS/48 David Robinson, Chris Paul, and Neil Johnston > Lebron James.

According to Win Shares, both Stockton and Malone are top 5.

thats why you use a combination of advanced stats, rook... shame ISH has to deal with morons like you :mad:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Just a moron new to basketball (ArbitraryWater) and sock accounts of his like MrFeeny / JT123.

No sane person or fan including Dirk himself would say Dirk > Kobe. Say that a local court with actual hoppers, or a barber shop, or sports talk at a bar? And be prepared to be laughed at. Possibly have drinks thrown at you.

With that said ... Wade, KG, Curry, KD > Dirk.

[Keno]

if/when dirk plays a few more years then dirk > kobe.

[FKAri]

dirk has no case unless you think he has GOAT level offensive impact(top 5 at least) which a few people do but most don't. kg and malone have better cases even if I and most people don't have them above Kobe and they're not even necessarily above dirk all time.
Dirk > KG offensively and its not particularly close. Overall's a different story.

[Sarcastic]

thats why you use a combination of advanced stats, rook... shame ISH has to deal with morons like you :mad:


No. Using advanced to prove a point never works, because there are always outliers like those. Advanced stats are for supporting and reinforcing.

Those stats don't prove that Dirk is better than Kobe.

[egokiller]

Somehow a thread about kobe and dirk turns into a lebron damage control thread.

A 3/7 finals record as 1st or 2nd option is good.
A 5/7 finals record as 1st or 2nd option is better.
A 6/6 finals record as 1st or 2nd option is best.

Learn the ****ing pecking order already.

Good, better, best.

Now repeat it to yourself so that you memorize it.

[KiiiiNG]

Somehow a thread about kobe and dirk turns into a lebron damage control thread.

A 3/7 finals record as 1st or 2nd option is good.
A 5/7 finals record as 1st or 2nd option is better.
A 6/6 finals record as 1st or 2nd option is best.

Learn the ****ing pecking order already.

Good, better, best.

Now repeat it to yourself so that you memorize it.
And a 40% FMVP rate is putrid...

Care to post Kobe's stats for his first ring which was included in your "data"..? No? That's what I thought...

You just spun the same unoriginal rhetoric that every other dumbf*ck know-nothing kobe stan posts on a daily basis and actually thought you had something of worth. :oldlol: :facepalm Funny you mention pecking order.... LeBron is consensus top 5, Kobe doesn't even sniff top 10. THAT'S the pecking order.

You baldbe fans are like cockroaches... no matter how hard the times get you fellas still somehow manage to craw your way back (on alts) to perpetuate the same tired garbage. :facepalm

Stop it! Get some help!

[NBAGOAT]

Dirk > KG offensively and its not particularly close. Overall's a different story.

i definitely agree but for dirk to be above kobe all time, you have to believe dirk is like kareem lvl on offense at his peak. don't think most people even has his peak above kobe's and dirk has less top tier years. kg's case is easier to make since he's close in a year by year comparison and malone has better numbers than Kobe.

[Inferno]

this forum is a joke :roll: the same three guys who dedicate their entire lives to hating on kobe posting in this thread :rolleyes:

[NumberSix]

Saying "Dirk > Kobe" is both racist and homophobic.

[GrapeApe]

Consensus? I don't think OP knows what the word consensus means. Dirk > Kobe is barely even a minority opinion, much less a consensus.

[egokiller]

And a 40% FMVP rate is putrid...

Care to post Kobe's stats for his first ring which was included in your "data"..? No? That's what I thought...

You just spun the same unoriginal rhetoric that every other dumbf*ck know-nothing kobe stan posts on a daily basis and actually thought you had something of worth. :oldlol: :facepalm Funny you mention pecking order.... LeBron is consensus top 5, Kobe doesn't even sniff top 10. THAT'S the pecking order.

You baldbe fans are like cockroaches... no matter how hard the times get you fellas still somehow manage to craw your way back (on alts) to perpetuate the same tired garbage. :facepalm

Stop it! Get some help!

Posting more data and the full picture will only show that Kobe's alphaness is greater than Lebron's more so than you already know. I'm willing to be it's been told to you 1000x over already and still hasn't sunk in, so no point in me wasting my time saying what you've already failed to comprehend. I come across your kind all the time. Talk this kind of nonsense in real life in any type of sports related discussion, and you'll be laughed out of the room.

[Real14]

The people would like to know.

[NBAGOAT]

Its so close between the two..

2000: Draw
2001: Kobe
2002: Draw
2003: Draw
2004: Dirk
2005: Dirk by a mile
2006: Dirk
2007: Draw
2008: Kobe
2009: Draw
2010: Dirk
2011: Dirk
2012: Draw
2013: Kobe
2014: Dirk by a MILE
2015: Dirk by a MILE
2016: Dirk by a MILE

:oldlol: yea this list is kind of ridiculous even knowing how you lean. Egregious ones include draw for 00 and 03 and dirk for 06 when 03 and 06 are two years argued as kobe's peak. even if i was being really generous to dirk, it look like

00: Kobe
01: Kobe
02: Draw
03: Kobe
04: Draw
05: Dirk
06: Draw
07: Draw
08: Kobe
09: Draw
10: Draw
11: Dirk
12: Draw
13: Kobe
14-16: Dirk

So it's 5-5 but 14-16 don't matter nearly as much as their prime years for both guys and every draw year, the popular opinion is Kobe. I don't have Kobe for every one of those but do for most.

[tpols]

Just a moron new to basketball (ArbitraryWater) and sock accounts of his like MrFeeny / JT123.

No sane person or fan including Dirk himself would say Dirk > Kobe. Say that a local court with actual hoppers, or a barber shop, or sports talk at a bar? And be prepared to be laughed at. Possibly have drinks thrown at you.

With that said ... Wade, KG, Curry, KD > Dirk.

:lol

i just got that mental image.. feeny and aw puffin their chest out saying some wild sh!t in public and getting a slow pour over the top of the dome

[knicksman]

Poor mans kobe(dirk) is even better than bran. Dirk has 1 legit ring while bran has none. And since quality>quantity then its no surprise that dirk is more respected.

[ArbitraryWater]

:oldlol: yea this list is kind of ridiculous even knowing how you lean. Egregious ones include draw for 00 and 03 and dirk for 06 when 03 and 06 are two years argued as kobe's peak. even if i was being really generous to dirk, it look like

00: Kobe
01: Kobe
02: Draw
03: Kobe
04: Draw
05: Dirk
06: Draw
07: Draw
08: Kobe
09: Draw
10: Draw
11: Dirk
12: Draw
13: Kobe
14-16: Dirk

So it's 5-5 but 14-16 don't matter nearly as much as their prime years for both guys and every draw year, the popular opinion is Kobe. I don't have Kobe for every one of those but do for most.

I was honestly being generous giving Kobe the edge in '09 and '10.. wha Dirk did was a bit more admirable.

How is '04 a draw? Kobe was utter utter crap lol..

[aj1987]

Just a moron new to basketball (ArbitraryWater) and sock accounts of his like MrFeeny / JT123.

No sane person or fan including Dirk himself would say Dirk > Kobe. Say that a local court with actual hoppers, or a barber shop, or sports talk at a bar? And be prepared to be laughed at. Possibly have drinks thrown at you.

With that said ... Wade, KG, Curry, KD > Dirk.
:roll:

:applause: :applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

All Time? Bean. Its not like Kobe was MILES ahead as a player compared to Dirk, its more like dude's resume is THAT much greater.

Gotta give Kobe the edge in prime and peak play too if we're including defense AND playmaking. Both are legends on offense, Kobe being the better scorer and Dirk the shooter.

[SamuraiSWISH]

All Time? Bean. Its not like Kobe was MILES ahead as a player compared to Dirk, its more like dude's resume is THAT much greater.

Gotta give Kobe the edge in prime and peak play too if we're including defense AND playmaking. Both are legends on offense, Kobe being the better scorer and Dirk the shooter.
Thus why you described verbatim why there isn't even a legitimate discussion. Resume or game.

We aren't talking about strictly scoring. And even then Kobe is superior.

There is no rational argument for Dirk, and no coach / GM would take Dirk over Bryant at their peaks either.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk is pretty easily the better offensive and crunchtime player, all advanced stats point towards that as well.

[ArbitraryWater]

All Time? Bean. Its not like Kobe was MILES ahead as a player compared to Dirk, its more like dude's resume is THAT much greater.

Gotta give Kobe the edge in prime and peak play too if we're including defense AND playmaking. Both are legends on offense, Kobe being the better scorer and Dirk the shooter.

But, dude, even including apg, Dirk creates more spacing for his teammates.. and he's a vastly more efficient scorer, factoring in the value of the 3 and FTs

[aj1987]

But, dude, even including apg, Dirk creates more spacing for his teammates.. and he's a vastly more efficient scorer, factoring in the value of the 3 and FTs
RS:

Kobe - 55% TS
Dirk - 58% TS

PO's:

Kobe - 54.1% TS
Dirk - 57.7% TS

3% and 3.6% difference. That really doesn't make Dirk a "vastly more efficient scorer".

[RRR3]

Obviously Kobe. AW stop overrating Dirk. Jesus Christ

[Big164]

Dirk 4-2 Lebron

End Thread

[ArbitraryWater]

RS:

Kobe - 55% TS
Dirk - 58% TS

PO's:

Kobe - 54.1% TS
Dirk - 57.7% TS

3% and 3.6% difference. That really doesn't make Dirk a "vastly more efficient scorer".

Thats a huge difference

:biggums: :biggums:


Obviously Kobe. AW stop overrating Dirk. Jesus Christ

Come back when youre capable of critical thinking and allowing new lines of thought into your peanut brain (sry)

[RRR3]

Thats a huge difference

:biggums: :biggums:



Come back when youre capable of critical thinking and allowing new lines of thought into your peanut brain (sry)
I'm quite capable of critical thinking, you jackass. Since you like advanced stats so much,


Kobe has a higher career VORP and OBPM than Dirk. His OBPM is a good bit higher actually, 4.45 to 3.36. Tell us more about Dirk's "GOAT offensive impact" and how Kobe is trash doe

[aj1987]

Thats a huge difference

:biggums: :biggums:
Dude, that's like 1 missed shot a game. Not a "huge difference". Stop being insecure AF and overrating Dirk. Kobe is about 10 spots ahead of him.

Didn't Kobe outscore the entire Mavs team by himself in '06?

[ArbitraryWater]

Dude, that's like 1 missed shot a game. Not a "huge difference". Stop being insecure AF and overrating Dirk. Kobe is about 10 spots ahead of him.

Didn't Kobe outscore the entire Mavs team by himself in '06?

How tf would you gauge a 3-4% difference in TS% as 'one shot', and how is that not a huge difference, given that youve said so as well when the topic was concerning Bron/Kobe? Lol

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm quite capable of critical thinking, you jackass. Since you like advanced stats so much,


Kobe has a higher career VORP and OBPM than Dirk. His OBPM is a good bit higher actually, 4.45 to 3.36. Tell us more about Dirk's "GOAT offensive impact" and how Kobe is trash doe

Whats VORP?

Just looked it up, Dirk will easily surpass him in that as well lol... will add that to the list, feeny and me noted it down

[fiddy]

pls dont insult Dirk

Had the most clutch finals series ever, in raw and advanced stats
Mehmet at it again :roll:

[aj1987]

How tf would you gauge a 3-4% difference in TS% as 'one shot', and how is that not a huge difference, given that youve said so as well when the topic was concerning Bron/Kobe? Lol
You can do the calculations yourself. It's not really that hard.

Cool. So, lets ignore semantics for a second and look at the breakdown.

Scoring - Kobe
Playmaking/Passing - Kobe
Defense - Kobe by a mile
Rebounding - Dirk
Efficiency - Dirk

Even though Dirk is more efficient, Kobe is a better scorer than Dirk. The only significant thing that Dirk is better at than Kobe is rebounding and it's not really surprising, since Dirk is a 7' PF and Kobe is a SG.

Again, Kobe is a top 10 GOAT and Dirk is barely top 20.

[brownmamba00]

Branvestites are pathetic, really.

[ArbitraryWater]

You can do the calculations yourself. It's not really that hard.

Cool. So, lets ignore semantics for a second and look at the breakdown.

Scoring - Kobe
Playmaking/Passing - Kobe
Defense - Kobe by a mile
Rebounding - Dirk
Efficiency - Dirk

Even though Dirk is more efficient, Kobe is a better scorer than Dirk. The only significant thing that Dirk is better at than Kobe is rebounding and it's not really surprising, since Dirk is a 7' PF and Kobe is a SG.

Again, Kobe is a top 10 GOAT and Dirk is barely top 20.

Lets do the simpleton breakdown then:

Offense: Dirk
More precisely:

Scoring: Dirk (better post-season, crunchtime and more effective scorer...)
Teammates benefiting from playmaking/space creation: Dirk
Efficiency: Dirk

Rebounding: Dirk

Defense: Kobe, barely.. dude absolutely stopped playing defense around '03 or so.

[aj1987]

Lets do the simpleton breakdown then:

Offense: Dirk
More precisely:

Scoring: Dirk (better post-season, crunchtime and more effective scorer...)
Teammates benefiting from playmaking/space creation: Dirk
Efficiency: Dirk

Rebounding: Dirk

Defense: Kobe, barely.. dude absolutely stopped playing defense around '03 or so.
:biggums: :biggums:

Holy ****, you're retarded. You were like 4 years old in '03, dude. Please stop talking about shit you haven't seen. I know for a fact that you started watching basketball like 3-4 seasons ago. Just stop.

Pointless waste of time. :facepalm

[chazzy]

Its so close between the two..

2000: Draw
2001: Kobe
2002: Draw
2003: Draw
2004: Dirk
2005: Dirk by a mile
2006: Dirk
2007: Draw
2008: Kobe
2009: Draw
2010: Dirk
2011: Dirk
2012: Draw
2013: Kobe
2014: Dirk by a MILE
2015: Dirk by a MILE
2016: Dirk by a MILE
Wow Rafael you have hit rock bottom. I thought people become smarter as they go through puberty

[Sarcastic]

Kobe is actually a better rebounder than Dirk, relative to position. For a 7 foot pf, Dirk is not a great rebounder, and doesn't even have 1 10 RPG season under his belt.

[RRR3]

From 2000 to 2013




2000

Kobe: 22.5 PPG on 54.6 TS%

Dirk: 17.5 PPG on 56.4 TS%

Analysis: Dirk was somewhat more efficient, but Kobe scored 5 more PPG.




2001

Kobe: 28.5 PPG on 55.2 TS%

Dirk: 21.8 PPG on 60.1 TS%

Analysis: Dirk had a sizable advantage in efficiency, but Kobe scored almost seven more PPG.




2002

Kobe: 25.2 PPG on 54.4 TS%

Dirk: 23.4 PPG on 59.9 TS%

Analysis: While Kobe score almost 2 more PPG, Dirk had a large lead in efficiency. Dirk can have this one I suppose.




2003

Kobe: 30.2 PPG on 55.0 TS%

Dirk: 25.1 PPG on 58.1 TS%

Analysis: Dirk had a decent lead in efficiency, but Kobe scored over 5 more PPG.




2004

Kobe: 24.0 PPG on 55.1 TS%

Dirk: 21.8 PPG on 56.1 TS%

Analysis: The efficiency gap was fairly close, and Kobe scored more than 2 more PPG.




2005

Kobe: 27.6 PPG on 56.3 TS%

Dirk: 26.1 PPG on 57.8 TS%


Analysis: This could go either way I suppose. Probably still Kobe, as he was on a shitty team and was obviously thus going to have to deal with more doubles and harassment from defenses.



2006

Kobe: 35.4 PPG on 55.9 TS%

Dirk: 26.6 PPG on 58.9 TS%

Analysis: Dirk's decent edge in efficiency doesn't make up for the massive scoring edge Kobe had (almost NINE PPG).




2007

Kobe: 31.6 PPG on 58.0 TS%

Dirk: 24.6 PPG on 60.5 TS%

Analysis: Again, Dirk's fair edge in efficiency doesn't offset the fact that Kobe scored SEVEN more PPG.



2008

Kobe: 28.3 PPG on 57.6 TS%

Dirk: 23.6 PPG on 58.5 TS%

Analysis: Relatively close in efficiency this season, and Kobe had a large edge in PPG.




2009

Kobe: 26.8 PPG on 56.1 TS%

Dirk: 25.9 PPG on 56.4 TS%

Analysis: Almost identical TS%, and Kobe scored slightly more. I suppose Dirk would have a case this year though.




2010

Kobe: 27.0 PPG on 54.5 TS%

Dirk: 25.0 PPG on 57.8 TS%

Analysis: This one is more debatable due to the efficiency gap and relatively small PPG difference, and Kobe had a better team, so IDK.




2011

Kobe: 25.3 PPG on 54.8 TS%

Dirk: 23.0 PPG on 61.2 TS%

Analysis: Clearly Dirk due to the massive efficiency gap, even though Kobe scored 2.3 more PPG.




2012

Kobe: 27.9 PPG on 52.7 TS%

Dirk: 21.6 PPG on 56.4 TS%

Analysis: Who knows? Dirk was injured IIRC, and Kobe definitely shot too much that year.




2013

Kobe: 27.3 PPG on 57.0 TS%

Dirk: 17.3 PPG on 56.4 TS%

Analysis: Kobe by a country mile




Then Kobe tore his achilles, and was done as a good player.



I'm not seeing how Dirk is clearly a better scorer, let alone a better scorer at all.

[ArbitraryWater]

What you also have to take into account there, is how disruptive Kobe's scoring was at times to his teammates.... his chucking, playing right into his opponents cards. For example seen with Odom always doing most of his work when Kobe was off the court.

Due to Kobe's FG% which was usually lower than all his teammates combined, Dirk's scoring came at a more effective and needed rate. In '05 Kobe shot 43% and you're actually giving him the edge.. I mean, lol. His scoring wasnt just worse than Dirk's, it was detrimental.

[ArbitraryWater]

:biggums: :biggums:

Holy ****, you're retarded. You were like 4 years old in '03, dude. Please stop talking about shit you haven't seen. I know for a fact that you started watching basketball like 3-4 seasons ago. Just stop.

Pointless waste of time. :facepalm

pretty much yea, thats also when the Phil quote came up. Look it up! :cheers:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What you also have to take into account there, is how disruptive Kobe's scoring was at times to his teammates.... his chucking, playing right into his opponents cards. For example seen with Odom always doing most of his work when Kobe was off the court.

Due to Kobe's FG% which was usually lower than all his teammates combined, Dirk's scoring came at a more effective and needed rate. In '05 Kobe shot 43% and you're actually giving him the edge.. I mean, lol. His scoring wasnt just worse than Dirk's, it was detrimental.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f7/69/ac/f769ac76e5d8d2d321c26e1f25bb68db.jpg

[ClipperRevival]

What you also have to take into account there, is how disruptive Kobe's scoring was at times to his teammates.... his chucking, playing right into his opponents cards. For example seen with Odom always doing most of his work when Kobe was off the court.

Due to Kobe's FG% which was usually lower than all his teammates combined, Dirk's scoring came at a more effective and needed rate. In '05 Kobe shot 43% and you're actually giving him the edge.. I mean, lol. His scoring wasnt just worse than Dirk's, it was detrimental.

Lol. Your theory would hold weight if Kobe didn't win squat. But he did. 2 as "the man" and 3 as 2nd fiddle. Yes Kobe could've been better with his shot selection but he was still impactful and efficient enough to win rings.

[RRR3]

This is what you said....




2000: Draw Kobe scored 5 more PPG on moderately worse efficiency. Dirk was averaging 17.5 PPG for ****'s sake :lol "Draw" doe:oldlol:
2001: Kobe Agreed
2002: Draw Actually gave this one to Dirk in terms of just scoring stats
2003: Draw Yeah, no Kobe scored 5 more PPG. The efficiency gap isn't large enough that season to offset 5 PPG.
2004: Dirk Extremely debatable if we're just going by stats
2005: Dirk by a mile Ridiculous.
2006: Dirk Kobe scored over NINE more PPG. NINE. Holy shit. B-b-b-but Dirk had a .03 edge in TS%!!!!!
2007: Draw LOL. Kobe scored SEVEN more PPG. But Dirk was just as good at scoring because he had a .025 higher TS%
2008: Kobe Yeah, no shit.
2009: Draw Fair enough.
2010: Dirk Maybe
2011: Dirk Obviously
2012: Draw Hard to say
2013: Kobe Kobe by A MILE
2014: Dirk by a MILE
2015: Dirk by a MILE Kobe played 6 games you idiot
2016: Dirk by a MILE

:hammerhead:

[RRR3]

I don't even necessarily think TS% is the end all measure either, but Dirk actually has a larger career edge in TS% (compared to Kobe) than he does in FG%, so IDK why you want to use FG% :lol

[ImKobe]

Kobe wins easily off accolades alone

Dirk losing in the 1st round to the Warriors in his MVP season with 60+ wins :kobe:

Kobe outscoring Dirk's Finals team through 3 quarters :kobe:

there's no argument for Dirk. 1 ring 2 Finals appearances vs 5 rings 7 appearances lol

not to mention Dirk himself saying Kobe is the GOAT since MJ

[pastis]

You can do the calculations yourself. It's not really that hard.

Cool. So, lets ignore semantics for a second and look at the breakdown.

Scoring - Kobe
Playmaking/Passing - Kobe
Defense - Kobe by a mile
Rebounding - Dirk
Efficiency - Dirk

Even though Dirk is more efficient, Kobe is a better scorer than Dirk. The only significant thing that Dirk is better at than Kobe is rebounding and it's not really surprising, since Dirk is a 7' PF and Kobe is a SG.

Again, Kobe is a top 10 GOAT and Dirk is barely top 20.

regarding defense: Kobe never was stastically better on defense than Dirk. Kobe never was a top 10 defender in any year, still has 15 or so all nba team selections.

looking at RAPM, here's how Kobe's defensive numbers look going back to '02-03 :

Score
'11 -1.0
'10 +1.2
'09 +0.8
'08 +1.0
'07 -0.2
'06 -0.9
'05 -1.1
'04 -0.6
'03 +0.1

There isn't a single year in the bunch that would warrant All-Defensive selection if we used that metric. It's actually kind of remarkable.

but success-wise Kobe is def. ahead of Dirk. individually im not that sure. but who cares. both a great. kobe probably a little bit greater

[IllegalD]

regarding defense: Kobe never was stastically better on defense than Dirk. Kobe never was a top 10 defender in any year, still has 15 or so all nba team selections.

looking at RAPM, here's how Kobe's defensive numbers look going back to '02-03 :

Score
'11 -1.0
'10 +1.2
'09 +0.8
'08 +1.0
'07 -0.2
'06 -0.9
'05 -1.1
'04 -0.6
'03 +0.1

There isn't a single year in the bunch that would warrant All-Defensive selection if we used that metric. It's actually kind of remarkable.

but success-wise Kobe is def. ahead of Dirk. individually im not that sure. but who cares. both a great. kobe probably a little bit greater


"A little bit greater"

:roll:

This dude seriously trying to argue that Dirk is comparable to Kobe defensively and that Kobe doesn't absolutely sh*t on Dirk on that side of the ball.

:lol :oldlol: :facepalm

[Cold soul]

Wow and people at actually arguing Dirk vs Kobe wow what a joke this place has turned into it flat out sucks filled with dozens of trolls and idiots. **** ISH. I see why so many left and have not returned I'll be joining that group.

[LostCause]

..........Kobe

[ArbitraryWater]

Wow and people at actually arguing Dirk vs Kobe wow what a joke this place has turned into it flat out sucks filled with dozens of trolls and idiots. **** ISH. I see why so many left and have not returned I'll be joining that group.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

Lol. Your theory would hold weight if Kobe didn't win squat. But he did. 2 as "the man" and 3 as 2nd fiddle. Yes Kobe could've been better with his shot selection but he was still impactful and efficient enough to win rings.

Were not even talking about that, but scoring between Kobe/Dirk, thats all :biggums:

[chazzy]

Were not even talking about that, but scoring between Kobe/Dirk, thats all :biggums:
Oh, now you're back pedaling? Your initial year by year breakdown didn't mention anything about it being only about scoring. Just lol at the revisionist history on that shitty list, I can't get over it

[Smoke117]

KG > Dirk > Kobe

[SouBeachTalents]

For the year by year breakdowns, when they were both in their primes

2000: Kobe
2001: Kobe
2002: Dirk
2003: Kobe
2004: Dirk
2005: Dirk
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Kobe
2010: Kobe
2011: Dirk
2012: Kobe
2013: Kobe

10-4 Kobe, although admittedly some years were pretty close

[NBAGOAT]

For the year by year breakdowns, when they were both in their primes

2000: Kobe
2001: Kobe
2002: Dirk
2003: Kobe
2004: Dirk
2005: Dirk
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Kobe
2010: Kobe
2011: Dirk
2012: Kobe
2013: Kobe

10-4 Kobe, although admittedly some years were pretty close

pretty much agree with most of this but i give 04 and maybe even 02 to Kobe and one of 06 or 07 and maybe 09 to Dirk. AW isn't making a good case for Dirk since he's not going win looking box scores(he's never even hit 27 ppg). He can't beat barkley or malone either there. You have to argue the ridiculous spacing he offers at that size and relative unselfishness makes him really unique and impactful offensively. maybe cite rapm but he doesn't really shine there like nash who's also underrated by the box score. every dirk offense besides a few post 2011 has been top 10 and most are top 5. 3 straight years of 110+ ortg with avery johnson coaching and mainly just terry and howard is especially impressive. That's why there are a few smart people who think Dirk is top tier as an offensive player.

[BigKAT]

For the year by year breakdowns, when they were both in their primes

2000: Kobe
2001: Kobe
2002: Dirk
2003: Kobe
2004: Dirk
2005: Dirk
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Kobe
2010: Kobe
2011: Dirk
2012: Kobe
2013: Kobe

10-4 Kobe, although admittedly some years were pretty close

Sounds about right to me.

[ArbitraryWater]

For the year by year breakdowns, when they were both in their primes

2000: Kobe
2001: Kobe
2002: Dirk
2003: Kobe
2004: Dirk
2005: Dirk
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Kobe
2010: Kobe
2011: Dirk
2012: Kobe
2013: Kobe

10-4 Kobe, although admittedly some years were pretty close

Lol at '06 and '09-'10 just given to Kobe... also, think about not rewarding Dirk 14-16, when those years, particularly 14, was at Kobe 2000 level.

^NBAGoat when did I ever make the boxscore argument dafuq? All you need to do is read my very first post in this thread. Ive said all anyone needs to know about Dirk before. His impact is in the details.

Actually, by the time the 2012 playoffs kicked around, Id probably have much rather taken Dirk to lead my team than Kobe, too... Kobe bricked the shit out of those OKC 4th quarters.

[ArbitraryWater]

Oh, now you're back pedaling? Your initial year by year breakdown didn't mention anything about it being only about scoring. Just lol at the revisionist history on that shitty list, I can't get over it

Im talking about the bit where he says it was good enough to win rings, which, as someone who has a functioning brain, looked like it was in the wrong thread, lol.

[KiiiiNG]

Dirk better peak (2011 playoff run) and also has an argument for better longevity.

Similar accolades. Both have 1 MVP. Dirk would at least have 5 rings too if he played with peak Shaq so I'm not using the ring argument against him. He peaked higher than Kobe anyway.

Rolling with Dirk on this one... which effectively knocks Kobe out of the top 12.

[Kool Boy]

Dirk in 6

[LostCause]

This thread makes it abundantly clear that some dude's don't know shit about basketball and should stick to slurping Bron or spamming agenda threads

[SamuraiSWISH]

KG > Dirk > Kobe
Another alcoholic Kobe hating moron.

[Round Mound]

Dirk was more of a Missmatch than Kobe and a Better Scorer and Shooter. Yes, A Better Scorer and Shooter (FG% Wise and FGAttempts Taken Per Game At A More More Efficient Level Awell As FT%). Kobe was Better Defensively Relative to Position and a Much Better Passer Aswell. Rebouding Wise? Equal. Both Top 20-25 Players of All Time.

[NBAGOAT]

Lol at '06 and '09-'10 just given to Kobe... also, think about not rewarding Dirk 14-16, when those years, particularly 14, was at Kobe 2000 level.

^NBAGoat when did I ever make the boxscore argument dafuq? All you need to do is read my very first post in this thread. Ive said all anyone needs to know about Dirk before. His impact is in the details.

Actually, by the time the 2012 playoffs kicked around, Id probably have much rather taken Dirk to lead my team than Kobe, too... Kobe bricked the shit out of those OKC 4th quarters.

true, i guess i paid more attenton to the responses. I'll cite a post from colts 18 on realGM which is the best case i've seen for Dirk being top tier on offense.


I'm not sure how you can say Dirk is not portable considering he has had high offensive value from 01-12 and did it on different kinds of teams. He had the greatest offense in history with Nash and a high usage player like Finley. He did great as a 1 man team in 2011. He was pretty good with a balanced lineup in 06-07. He was solid in 01 before Nash emerged with a 2nd scoring option like Finley. I posted this before but I'm going to repost it:

2001: 53 wins, 4th in O rating
-11.3 off, +20.1 plus/minus
109.4 O rating on court, 99.9 off, +9.5

2002- 57 wins, 1st in O rating
-3.0 off, +10.3 plus/minus
114.6 O Rating on court, 105.1 off, +9.5

2003-60 wins, 1st in O rating
Dirk: -8.8 off court, +21.7 Plus/minus
113.7 O rating on, 99.4 off, +14.3

2004- 52 wins, 1st in O rating: Rated the #1 offense of all-time by O rating
-2.0 off court, +9.2 plus/minus
113.9 O rating on, 106.8 off, +7.1

2005- 58 wins, 4th in O rating
DIrk: -6 off court, +15.3
112.1 O rating on court, 102 off, +12.1 in offense

2006- 60 wins, 1st in O rating
Dirk: -0.6 off court, +8.5
115.4 O rating on court, 104.5 off, +10.9

2007-67 wins, 2nd in O rating
Dirk: -1.6 off court, +12.4
116.6 O rating on court, 101.9 off, +14.7
Very much a deserved MVP


2008- 51 wins, 8th in O rating
Dirk: -4.4 off court, +12.7
115.6 O rating on court, 104 off, +11.6

2009- 50 wins, 5th in O rating
Dirk: -4.2 off court, +8
112.9 O rating on court, 106.3 off, +6.6

2010- 55 wins, 10th in O rating
Dirk: -6.2 off court, +11.7
111.6 O rating on court, 106.1 off, +5.5

2011- 57 wins, 8th in O rating
Dirk: -6.1 off court, +16.3
114.4 O rating on court, 104.3 off, +10.1

So here are Dirk's averages
56.4 wins, 4.1 in O rating (4 #1 finishes, 8 top 5, 11/11 in top 10)
-5.1 Off court, +13.9 +/- (He's +14.1 if you include 2012 into this)
113.3 O rating on court, 102.3 off, +11 on offense

That's right, in every single season plus minus is available, Dirk's team has been a negative when he was off the court. He won 50+ games in every single one of those seasons, yet every single season they sucked without him especially on offense. That +11 on offense puts him up there with MJ and Nash as the GOAT of offense.

Here is what Dirk/Nash did +/- from 01-04 when they were on the same team:
01:
Dirk: +20.1 (+9.5 offense)
Nash: +5.9 (+6.5 offense)

02:
Dirk: +10.3 (+9.5 offense)
Nash: +3.7 (+2.6 offense)

03:
Dirk +21.7 (+14.2 offense)
Nash: +10.7 (+7.4 offense)

04:
Dirk: +9.2 (+7.1 offense)
Nash: +6.8 (+6.5 offense)

So every year Dirk was significantly better even on offense. I'm 100% confident that Dirk is more portable offensively than Nash is. Dirk has dominated with a great PG, good 2nd option perimeter wise, as the man, or on a balanced offense. Arguably a top 5 offensive player ever.

Here are some offensive plus/minus numbers from 01-04 with Dirk and Steve Nash on the same team.

Overall Mavs: 110.6 O rating, .544 TS%

With Dirk: 112.8 O rating, .556 TS%
W/O Dirk: 103.2 O rating, .506 TS%
Difference: +9.6 O rating, +5.0 TS%

With Nash: 112.3 O rating, .555 TS%
W/O Nash: 106.9 O rating, .521 TS%
Difference: +5.4 O rating, +3.4 TS%

With Dirk, no Nash: 109.8 O rating, .533 TS%
With Nash, no Dirk: 104.3 O rating, .512 TS%

With Dirk/Nash on court: 114.0 O rating, .564 TS% (the LA at that time was around 103.5 so thats +10.5 :o )
With no Nash/Dirk: 102.0 O rating, .500 TS%

With Nash/Finley/Dirk: 113.9 O rating, .563 TS%
With Nash/Finley, No Dirk: 104.6 O rating, .510 TS%
Diff: +9.3 O rating, +5.3 TS%


On this board, Nash gets acknowledged as the greatest offensive player ever, yet Dirk was clearly the offensive catalyst when they played together. Dirk ran the show on arguably the greatest offenses in history. Then Nash improved when a team was clearly built around him. Dirk could have that success if he had that kind of offensive talent and a system built around him. Dirk was a superstar with Nash, a superstar with Finley, a superstar with scrubs like 11-12, a superstar with avg role players like Stackhouse/Terry/Howard, etc.

[Bigsmoke]

Dirk got his ass handed to him by an 8th seed

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2007-nba-western-conference-first-round-warriors-vs-mavericks.html

[Bigsmoke]

I'm not a Kobe fan by any means but did someone tried to claim that Dirk was a better than than him in 2006 :biggums:

[ArbitraryWater]

true, i guess i paid more attenton to the responses. I'll cite a post from colts 18 on realGM which is the best case i've seen for Dirk being top tier on offense.

great stuff! :applause:

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk better peak (2011 playoff run) and also has an argument for better longevity.

Similar accolades. Both have 1 MVP. Dirk would at least have 5 rings too if he played with peak Shaq so I'm not using the ring argument against him. He peaked higher than Kobe anyway.

Rolling with Dirk on this one... which effectively knocks Kobe out of the top 12.

:cheers:

pretty much... imagine Shaq and Dirk together? Yikes.. 5 rings alone right there. GOAT Mismatch team.