How come Wilt fans have to write novels to make a convincing argument?

[Nilocon165]

Just saying.

Nobody is gonna care or have the time to read your posts when you have to go through so much work to convince everyone that he wasn't a choker.

[Big164]

We dont.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LxMeEzhvNRs/hqdefault.jpg

[egokiller]

OP just got shitted on with a single image being posted.

[LAZERUSS]

Just saying.

Nobody is gonna care or have the time to read your posts when you have to go through so much work to convince everyone that he wasn't a choker.

Because the evidence is so overwhelming. You could write BOOKS on Chamberlain's dominance in BOTH the regular season AND the post-season.

As for "choker"...

even if we were to take his playoff stats at face value (and not using CONTEXT)... a CAREER 23-25 player, who outshot the post-season NBA by nearly ten percentage points above the league average.

Of course, using CONTEXT, and they suddenly become GOAT-like.

For instance,... gotta love the "30 ppg RS, 18 (actually 19 BTW) PO" Wilt.

How about this?

What's the difference between Wilt's post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, '68, and his post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '64 and '69?

NONE. Those H2H's basically decided the NBA championship. Plain-and-simple. BUT, in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, and '68...they were the EDF's. And NOT the Finals.

What were Wilt's numbers in those EDF's? 22-25-7; 22-32-10 .556; 28-30 .509; 30-31 .555; and 34-27.

Compare that with Lebron's seven trips to the Finals. Give me a list of a great Eastern team that James beat en route to the Finals. NONE. The ONE team that was great, the '08 Celtics... held Lebron to .355 shooting...and that came in ECSF's.

Not only that, but how take a look at Russell's Finals in his career. SIX of them came against the Lakers. Throw out the '69 Finals, when he faced Wilt, and did nothing offensively...and he was putting up Finals of 23-27-6 on .543 FG%; 20-26-5 on .467; 18-25-6 on get this... a .702 FG%; 24-24-4 .538; and 17-22-6 on .430. That's a combined average of 21-25-5 on a .515 FG%.

Now, how many times did Wilt face those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's? NONE. And how did Wilt fare against those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's... 86 H2H's, and 42 games of 40+, including 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even 2 of 70+!

Prior to 1969, Chamberlain played exactly ONE playoff series against a Western Division team. How did he do? 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .560 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .420.)

Think about that. Had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his prime, he likely would have been going to the Finals nearly every year, and probably hanging 40+ ppg playoff series in several of them.

Furthermore, how about Shaq's Finals? In his wins... against a washed-up Smits in his last season; a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was allowed to bloody to a pulp by some of the worst Finals officiating in NBA history..only the '06 debacle was worse); a career 6 ppg stumblebum in MacCoulloch; and the career bust Dampier. Had a PRIME Chamberlain faced those inept clods, and who knows how many Finals scoring, rebounding, and efficiency records Wilt would hold today.

CONTEXT.

[TommyGriffin]

First 3 posters are the same person.

[j3lademaster]

Just saying.

Nobody is gonna care or have the time to read your posts when you have to go through so much work to convince everyone that he wasn't a choker.well, what do you come on here to read? It's a basketball forum, you give an opinion and back it up with facts as best you can. I can comprehend full 3ball/ Laz posts with spare minutes between work emails, I find them to be well structured and easy reads. Whether I agree is a different story, but if you're struggling or investing too much time into trying to read such posts it might be more of a personal problem.

[iamgine]

They don't have to. It's just retired grandpas have a lot of time on their hand.

[Hey Yo]

OP just got shitted on with a single image being posted.
:oldlol: present to past tense in a blink of an eye

[I<3NBA]

because 5 ringz hurr durr is better :rolleyes:

[Mr Feeny]

Because the evidence is so overwhelming. You could write BOOKS on Chamberlain's dominance in BOTH the regular season AND the post-season.

As for "choker"...

even if we were to take his playoff stats at face value (and not using CONTEXT)... a CAREER 23-25 player, who outshot the post-season NBA by nearly ten percentage points above the league average.

Of course, using CONTEXT, and they suddenly become GOAT-like.

For instance,... gotta love the "30 ppg RS, 18 (actually 19 BTW) PO" Wilt.

How about this?

What's the difference between Wilt's post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, '68, and his post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '64 and '69?

NONE. Those H2H's basically decided the NBA championship. Plain-and-simple. BUT, in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, and '68...they were the EDF's. And NOT the Finals.

What were Wilt's numbers in those EDF's? 22-25-7; 22-32-10 .556; 28-30 .509; 30-31 .555; and 34-27.

Compare that with Lebron's seven trips to the Finals. Give me a list of a great Eastern team that James beat en route to the Finals. NONE. The ONE team that was great, the '08 Celtics... held Lebron to .355 shooting...and that came in ECSF's.

Not only that, but how take a look at Russell's Finals in his career. SIX of them came against the Lakers. Throw out the '69 Finals, when he faced Wilt, and did nothing offensively...and he was putting up Finals of 23-27-6 on .543 FG%; 20-26-5 on .467; 18-25-6 on get this... a .702 FG%; 24-24-4 .538; and 17-22-6 on .430. That's a combined average of 21-25-5 on a .515 FG%.

Now, how many times did Wilt face those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's? NONE. And how did Wilt fare against those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's... 86 H2H's, and 42 games of 40+, including 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even 2 of 70+!

Prior to 1969, Chamberlain played exactly ONE playoff series against a Western Division team. How did he do? 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .560 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .420.)

Think about that. Had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his prime, he likely would have been going to the Finals nearly every year, and probably hanging 40+ ppg playoff series in several of them.

Furthermore, how about Shaq's Finals? In his wins... against a washed-up Smits in his last season; a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was allowed to bloody to a pulp by some of the worst Finals officiating in NBA history..only the '06 debacle was worse); a career 6 ppg stumblebum in MacCoulloch; and the career bust Dampier. Had a PRIME Chamberlain faced those inept clods, and who knows how many Finals scoring, rebounding, and efficiency records Wilt would hold today.

CONTEXT.

I'm sorry but.

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5


Could you verify these choke stats?

Many thanks fella.

[LostCause]

well, what do you come on here to read? It's a basketball forum, you give an opinion and back it up with facts as best you can. I can comprehend full 3ball/ Laz posts with spare minutes between work emails, I find them to be well structured and easy reads. Whether I agree is a different story, but if you're struggling or investing too much time into trying to read such posts it might be more of a personal problem.
Damn

[Asukal]

well, what do you come on here to read? It's a basketball forum, you give an opinion and back it up with facts as best you can. I can comprehend full 3ball/ Laz posts with spare minutes between work emails, I find them to be well structured and easy reads. Whether I agree is a different story, but if you're struggling or investing too much time into trying to read such posts it might be more of a personal problem.

Loseruss posts are "easy reads"??? :rolleyes: :lol :oldlol: :roll:

[AirBonner]

Could you imagine an argument with 3ball and laz? 200 pages minimum.

[AintNoSunshine]

More like ' How come Wilt fans have to write novels to make a convincing argument that convinces noone?

[Milbuck]

Anyone who has watched even a little 60s basketball and seriously believes it's anywhere remotely close to the level of competition of the recent eras is laughably delusional and beyond a reasonable discussion. Textbook old man yelling at cloud delusion, don't even bother.

I wish there was a way to throw some of today's players into the 60s against the part time car salesman they had derping around then, with those dogshit defensive schemes and pace through the roof. Like put 2009 Lebron in the league. Imagine the massacre that would be Bob Cousy trying to defend Westbrook :oldlol:

[FreezingTsmoove]

Anyone who has watched even a little 60s basketball and seriously believes it's anywhere remotely close to the level of competition of the recent eras is laughably delusional and beyond a reasonable discussion. Textbook old man yelling at cloud delusion, don't even bother.

Coming from the white midget hick that wouldnt even make a high school team in the 60s :roll:

Get outta here MilSUCK

[Milbuck]

Coming from the white midget hick that wouldnt even make a high school team in the 60s :roll:

Get outta here MilSUCK
Rent free. Respond to me again.

[LAZERUSS]

Anyone who has watched even a little 60s basketball and seriously believes it's anywhere remotely close to the level of competition of the recent eras is laughably delusional and beyond a reasonable discussion. Textbook old man yelling at cloud delusion, don't even bother.

I wish there was a way to throw some of today's players into the 60s against the part time car salesman they had derping around then, with those dogshit defensive schemes and pace through the roof. Like put 2009 Lebron in the league. Imagine the massacre that would be Bob Cousy trying to defend Westbrook :oldlol:

Agreed.

How about this goofball from the 60's winning TWO MVPs. Can you imagine him in a league with Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, and Lebron?

http://www.unsportsmanlike.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/steve-nash-carries-a-man-purse.jpg


Take a look at this 60's PG....who was a career .368 shooter BTW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=993UTozPECc

Then take a look at this 6-8 clown from the 60's. That era was so bad that this guy could run away with the rpg title, and in only 35 mpg. He also put up a 26-12 season, as well. Just truly laughable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7TnbhJr8iY


And just look, here was a STARTING CENTER from the 60's, that was 6-5 1/2.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chuck-Hayes-110/


And how do you think the 6-9 Bill Russell would have fared against the 6-11 Dwight Howard?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b265/dharocks/dwight_zps72910c96.jpg

BTW, how about the "6-11" Demarcus Cousins

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/DeMarcus-Cousins-1318/

Oh, and take a look at that Cousins vertical, too.

Can you imagine Cousins looking like this clod...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AlFrOj5Mc


And then how about the "6-11" DeAndre Jordan?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/DeAndre-Jordan-1072/

Or the "7-0" Andre Drummond?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Andre-Drummond-5772/


Can you imagine Kareem, who played in the NBA in 1969, facing a center who gave Shaq all he could handle in the '95 Finals?

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/09/13/20130803-kareem-vs-rockets.nba/

BTW, Kareem was 39 years old in that game. A week later he outscored Patrick Ewing 40-9, and outshot him from the floor by a 15-22 to 3-17 margin.

Nope...no way a prime Kareem would ever make it in today's NBA.


Thanks for giving us all here your brilliant insight. We are all much better off for it.

[aj1987]

Anyone who has watched even a little 60s basketball and seriously believes it's anywhere remotely close to the level of competition of the recent eras is laughably delusional and beyond a reasonable discussion. Textbook old man yelling at cloud delusion, don't even bother.

I wish there was a way to throw some of today's players into the 60s against the part time car salesman they had derping around then, with those dogshit defensive schemes and pace through the roof. Like put 2009 Lebron in the league. Imagine the massacre that would be Bob Cousy trying to defend Westbrook :oldlol:
This hack scored 100 point and averaged 50 a game:

https://s22.postimg.io/av4tin34x/Wilt_Chamberlain_100_point.jpg

This used car salesman was an MVP and 10x All-NBA First:

https://s22.postimg.io/b5cc1zhr5/c6sxeykysrchvodndx8p.jpg

2x MVP and 10x All-NBA First:

https://s22.postimg.io/vo7871voh/Bob_Pettit_1962.jpg

10x All-NBA First and supposed to be one of the best rebounders:

https://s22.postimg.io/ticxcjs81/140916203240_20140916_gt_elgin_baylor_80th_birth.j pg

This stick figure was the best rebounder in the game and won 11 titles:

https://s22.postimg.io/xik2osiox/Cb_Bx9_Tu_W8_AEa_Ris_jpg_medium.jpg

Those dudes make Nash look like a ****ing bodybuilder.

[BigKAT]

They don't have to. It's just retired grandpas have a lot of time on their hand.

Underrated post.

[Bankaii]

Because looking at Wilt/Russell with objective measures doesn't help their cases to much.

The bigger the stage, the more of a drop off in points per game for the "most dominant scorer ever".
And Russell's stats are just pathetic. His defensive impact couldn't be that much greater than Timmy, Hakeem, etc. (who were also elite offensively) so why do we excuse the fact that he's an unreliable scorer just because of his defense?

The 60s as a whole was just weak. I wish there was a way to illustrate just how bad MJ/Kobe/Shaq/Lebron etc would wreck the 60s so we can stop overrating those 2 choking grandpas.

[SouBeachTalents]

Because looking at Wilt/Russell with objective measures doesn't help their cases to much.

The bigger the stage, the more of a drop off in points per game for the "most dominant scorer ever".
And Russell's stats are just pathetic. His defensive impact couldn't be that much greater than Timmy, Hakeem, etc. (who were also elite offensively) so why do we excuse the fact that he's an unreliable scorer just because of his defense?

The 60s as a whole was just weak. I wish there was a way to illustrate just how bad MJ/Kobe/Shaq/Lebron etc would wreck the 60s so we can stop overrating those 2 choking grandpas.

C'mon bro, Russell was clutch AF

[Psileas]

How come Wilt fans have to write novels to make a convincing argument?

What's funny is that it's the other side that started with the "novel" thing when they tried to add "perspective" to Wilt's stats and started adjusting by pace, minutes played and shit like that, as well as add "perspective" to Wilt's dominance by pointing out his supposed playoff underperformances. Of course, there are lots of retorts to their crap, but obviously they need more than 3 lines, so they're not for the average ISHer.
So, spare us with the whole "novel" excuse. It's not Wilt fans the ones that started this. Wilt fans don't need to write any "novels", because his dominance blows most other legends' dominance out of the water, regardless of stage. When it comes to individuals, dominance >> rings, because dominance=individual and rings=team. And Wilt epitomized this more than anyone else.

The only "novel" a Wilt fan would need to write would be the list of his accomplishments.

[Psileas]

Because looking at Wilt/Russell with objective measures doesn't help their cases to much.

The bigger the stage, the more of a drop off in points per game for the "most dominant scorer ever".
And Russell's stats are just pathetic. His defensive impact couldn't be that much greater than Timmy, Hakeem, etc. (who were also elite offensively) so why do we excuse the fact that he's an unreliable scorer just because of his defense?

The 60s as a whole was just weak. I wish there was a way to illustrate just how bad MJ/Kobe/Shaq/Lebron etc would wreck the 60s so we can stop overrating those 2 choking grandpas.

Too weak an attempt to try to have the cake and eat it at the same time.
So, "the bigger the stage, the more of a drop off in points per game for the GOAT" and yet Russell's defensive impact couldn't be much greater than Duncan's, Hakeem's etc? Are you serious, dude? Even ignoring your last paragraph, do you even comprehend what type of BS you're writing? :wtf:

[hold this L]

We dont.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LxMeEzhvNRs/hqdefault.jpg
This must be how many points he scores in all his games added up during playoffs

:yaohappy:

[Mr Feeny]

This must be how many points he scores in all his games added up during playoffs

:yaohappy:or the finals:roll:
Remember he's an 18 ppg finals scorer:lol

[Bankaii]

C'mon bro, Russell was clutch AF
Have you see Russell's Finals stats? If any current day player put those numbers up they'd have to commit suicide to avoid scrutiny. And that's without accounting for inflation.
Give me any proof of his "clutchness" that isn't team-based. And yes I'm aware of his clutch ability on defense. But players with a GOAT case should be GOAT level on BOTH sides.

Too weak an attempt to try to have the cake and eat it at the same time.
So, "the bigger the stage, the more of a drop off in points per game for the GOAT" and yet Russell's defensive impact couldn't be much greater than Duncan's, Hakeem's etc? Are you serious, dude? Even ignoring your last paragraph, do you even comprehend what type of BS you're writing? :wtf:
What I said is 100% true. It is a fact that's Wilt's PPG dropped off as he went from the RS to the PO to the Finals. Hence bigger stage=better competition=Wilt's production decreases.

And what indication do you have that Russell's impact on defense > Timmy/Hakeem? Have you seen the majority of his games or have any objective measures to prove this? Or are you just jumping on the bandwagon because everyone says how great his defense was?

[ClipperRevival]

Have you see Russell's Finals stats? If any current day player put those numbers up they'd have to commit suicide to avoid scrutiny. And that's without accounting for inflation.
Give me any proof of his "clutchness" that isn't team-based. And yes I'm aware of his clutch ability on defense. But players with a GOAT case should be GOAT level on BOTH sides.

What I said is 100% true. It is a fact that's Wilt's PPG dropped off as he went from the RS to the PO to the Finals. Hence bigger stage=better competition=Wilt's production decreases.

And what indication do you have that Russell's impact on defense > Timmy/Hakeem? Have you seen the majority of his games or have any objective measures to prove this? Or are you just jumping on the bandwagon because everyone says how great his defense was?

How about these numbers in 10 game 7s?

18.6 PPG, 29.3 RPG

And he was 10-0 in those games. Both numbers noticeably above his career averages. And those game 7s occurred in 9 different seasons, meaning if he loses all of them, he has 2 rings versus 11.

Russell has 13 titles (2 NCAA and 11 NBA) in a 15 year span. He is without a doubt the greatest winner in North American team sport history. All this winning wasn't coincidence. It was him that made his teams win. Before he went to the Univ of SF, they were NOTHING. Ditto for the Celtics who didn't win squat before he got there. You play to win the game and he did that better than anyone.

He also wasn't just a role player. He has 5 regular season MVP and if they had given out FMVP during his era, he would have 7-9.

So:

11 rings
5 mvp
7-9 fmvp

Clutch as hell, the ultimate winner.

[Psileas]

What I said is 100% true. It is a fact that's Wilt's PPG dropped off as he went from the RS to the PO to the Finals. Hence bigger stage=better competition=Wilt's production decreases.

I've shown multiple times that half the times, Wilt's productivity increased in the playoffs compared to his regular season productivity against the same opponents. Hence, so much for the "choker" label, he was just fine, playoffs or not.
No, bigger stage does not necessarily = "better competition". For Wilt/Russell, the real test was when they clashed against each other, usually in the conference Finals, not when Russell was facing freakin' LeRoy Ellis in the Finals.

When competition gets better, most players' production decreases, regardless of their level, not just Wilt's, except maybe certain players who tend to coast in the r.s. Jordan's production decreased vs the Pistons. Shaq's production decreased vs the Spurs. Kareem's production decreased vs Thurmond/Wilt. And Wilt's production decreased vs Russell/Thurmond. It's not quantum physics.



And what indication do you have that Russell's impact on defense > Timmy/Hakeem? Have you seen the majority of his games or have any objective measures to prove this? Or are you just jumping on the bandwagon because everyone says how great his defense was?

The Celtics with Russell were so much better defensively than any other team in the league that there's not any real analogy to them, before of since.
Their offense was constantly among the least efficient in the league and it still didn't matter, it still provided them (usually) with the best record in the league. There isn't anyone else you can attribute this to than Russell. Cousy wasn't considered a good defender, KC Jones was pretty good, but a guard who wasn't even getting big minutes, Havlicek was also good, but the Celtics were equally dominant before him, Sam Jones was OK, but not special, Heinsohn was "below OK". There's no reason to believe that by replacing Russell with an average defensive center, the Celtics would be above just "OK" defensively. I can't find anything than compares, even before or during Russell's era, so, I'll say that's good evidence that Russell's defensive impact is unmatched - and I don't care what types of excuses someone may find for this.

[Asukal]

ILt has long been exposed, nothing his delusional stans can do to prove otherwise. 30>22>18=2 is all I need as an argument against his supposed dominance. :whatever:

[Bankaii]

How about these numbers in 10 game 7s?

18.6 PPG, 29.3 RPG

And he was 10-0 in those games. Both numbers noticeably above his career averages. And those game 7s occurred in 9 different seasons, meaning if he loses all of them, he has 2 rings versus 11.

Russell has 13 titles (2 NCAA and 11 NBA) in a 15 year span. He is without a doubt the greatest winner in North American team sport history. All this winning wasn't coincidence. It was him that made his teams win. Before he went to the Univ of SF, they were NOTHING. Ditto for the Celtics who didn't win squat before he got there. You play to win the game and he did that better than anyone.

He also wasn't just a role player. He has 5 regular season MVP and if they had given out FMVP during his era, he would have 7-9.

So:

11 rings
5 mvp
7-9 fmvp

Clutch as hell, the ultimate winner.
I like how you're talking as if you watched more than YouTube highlights.
Is 18/29 supposed to be impressive? Why you convienently leave off FG%? Abs if you account for pace and competition those numbers aren't really anything special.

Posting TEAM accomplishments doesn't shows INDIVIDUAL clutchness. Especially when he had by far the most stacked team in league and didn't even lead his team for a good portion of those Finals.

Never said he wasn't a winner or a top 10 GOAT, but he gets drastically overrated. He's the only top 11 GOAT that's wasn't elite offensively.

[Bankaii]

I've shown multiple times that half the times, Wilt's productivity increased in the playoffs compared to his regular season productivity against the same opponents. Hence, so much for the "choker" label, he was just fine, playoffs or not.
No, bigger stage does not necessarily = "better competition". For Wilt/Russell, the real test was when they clashed against each other, usually in the conference Finals, not when Russell was facing freakin' LeRoy Ellis in the Finals.

When competition gets better, most players' production decreases, regardless of their level, not just Wilt's, except maybe certain players who tend to coast in the r.s. Jordan's production decreased vs the Pistons. Shaq's production decreased vs the Spurs. Kareem's production decreased vs Thurmond/Wilt. And Wilt's production decreased vs Russell/Thurmond. It's not quantum physics.
Please explain to in what league does the level of competition not increase in the postseason as compared to the regular season?:oldlol:

It's no coincidence that Wilt averaged 30 in the RS to 22 in the PO to 18 in the Finals. Hint: It's called getting exposed against better competition.


If you've proven it so many times it should be easy to explain why his scoring decreased every higher level.


The Celtics with Russell were so much better defensively than any other team in the league that there's not any real analogy to them, before of since.
Their offense was constantly among the least efficient in the league and it still didn't matter, it still provided them (usually) with the best record in the league. There isn't anyone else you can attribute this to than Russell. Cousy wasn't considered a good defender, KC Jones was pretty good, but a guard who wasn't even getting big minutes, Havlicek was also good, but the Celtics were equally dominant before him, Sam Jones was OK, but not special, Heinsohn was "below OK". There's no reason to believe that by replacing Russell with an average defensive center, the Celtics would be above just "OK" defensively. I can't find anything than compares, even before or during Russell's era, so, I'll say that's good evidence that Russell's defensive impact is unmatched - and I don't care what types of excuses someone may find for this.
This is 100% opinion.
I asked fir undeniable proof that Russell is by far the GOAT defender.

[LAZERUSS]

Please explain to in what league does the level of competition not increase in the postseason as compared to the regular season?:oldlol:

It's no coincidence that Wilt averaged 30 in the RS to 22 in the PO to 18 in the Finals. Hint: It's called getting exposed against better competition.


If you've proven it so many times it should be easy to explain why his scoring decreased every higher level.


This is 100% opinion.
I asked fir undeniable proof that Russell is by far the GOAT defender.

Interesting...

A 39 year old KAJ ROUTINELY dumped 40+ point games on a prime Hakeem, with a high of 46 points, and in only 37 minutes... and all on .630+ FG%'s. A 40 year old Kareem outscored him, and outshot him by a .567 to .403 margin in his 4 H2H's that season.

A PEAK Shaq, put up his career high against a fading Hakeem in the '99 playoffs... of 37 points.

Now, a PEAK Kareem faced a fading Nate Thurmond in some 35 career H2H's. His HIGH game against him was 34 points (and only five total BTW...one less thajn the number of 30+ point games that Kareem poured on Hakeem in 10 straight H2H's at ages 38 and 39.) Oh, and his career FG% against Nate... .447.

On top of that... a PEAK Kareem, in his greatest season of his career...was OUTSCORED and OUTSHOT by an aging Thurmond in the '72 playoffs. BTW, Kareem shot .405 from the floor in that same series.

What does all of that tell you?

Thurmond >>>>>> Hakeem AND Shaq.

Thanks for playing.

[swagga]

Loseruss posts are "easy reads"??? :rolleyes: :lol :oldlol: :roll:

maybe some posters have degrees in creative writing? :oldlol: seriously, laz should just man up and write a book, i'd even buy it. seriously, just for the :oldlol:

[Bankaii]

Interesting...

A 39 year old KAJ ROUTINELY dumped 40+ point games on a prime Hakeem, with a high of 46 points, and in only 37 minutes... and all on .630+ FG%'s. A 40 year old Kareem outscored him, and outshot him by a .567 to .403 margin in his 4 H2H's that season.

A PEAK Shaq, put up his career high against a fading Hakeem in the '99 playoffs... of 37 points.

Now, a PEAK Kareem faced a fading Nate Thurmond in some 35 career H2H's. His HIGH game against him was 34 points (and only five total BTW...one less thajn the number of 30+ point games that Kareem poured on Hakeem in 10 straight H2H's at ages 38 and 39.) Oh, and his career FG% against Nate... .447.

On top of that... a PEAK Kareem, in his greatest season of his career...was OUTSCORED and OUTSHOT by an aging Thurmond in the '72 playoffs. BTW, Kareem shot .405 from the floor in that same series.

What does all of that tell you?

Thurmond >>>>>> Hakeem AND Shaq.

Thanks for playing.
What the hell does any of this have to do with Wilt or Russell:biggums:

[LAZERUSS]

What the hell does any of this have to do with Wilt or Russell:biggums:

A PRIME Chamberlain DESTROYED a PEAK Thurmond in their H2H's, and throughout their entire careers.

[Bankaii]

A PRIME Chamberlain DESTROYED a PEAK Thurmond in their H2H's, and throughout their entire careers.
Using individual matchup a to determine if one player is better than another is idiotic.

I need one explanation from you. Why the MDE scorer went from 30 PPG in the RS to 18 in the Finals when it really mattered. Scroll through your novels and enlighten me grandpa.

[RRR3]

Using individual matchup a to determine if one player is better than another is idiotic.

I need one explanation from you. Why the MDE scorer went from 30 PPG in the RS to 18 in the Finals when it really mattered. Scroll through your novels and enlighten me grandpa.
Wilt only played in one NBA finals during his years as a record-setting scorer to be fair. http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1964-nba-finals-warriors-vs-celtics.html

[RRR3]

Wilt didn't shoot nearly as much in the playoffs either, on average. It's not like he suddenly started missing everything. His playoff stats are definitely less impressive than his regular season stats, and this does negatively affect his candidacy for GOAT, but I don't see how he's not top 5 at the least when you consider he was known as one of the GOAT defensive players as well. Even if he wasn't scoring much, he could dominate. IIRC he won Finals MVP when he wasn't even scoring that much, due to his defense, rebounding and passing.

[LAZERUSS]

Using individual matchup a to determine if one player is better than another is idiotic.

I need one explanation from you. Why the MDE scorer went from 30 PPG in the RS to 18 in the Finals when it really mattered. Scroll through your novels and enlighten me grandpa.

No need to.

First, why did MJ's ppg and FG% efficiency decline dramatically against the Bad Boys from '88 thru '90 (and even into '91 when the Pistons were just a shell)?

Why did Shaq' s scoring and efficiency decline considerably against the Robinson-Spurs from '99 thru '02?

Why did Kareem's scoring and efficiency fall off the cliff when he faced Chamberlain and Thurmond in his 5 playoff series H2H's against them?


Next...ask yourself this...

Did Wilt make the Finals EVERY season in his career? Or did he make it five times out of six seasons AFTER his scoring prime?


BUT, just to help you...


even if we were to take his playoff stats at face value (and not using CONTEXT)... a CAREER 23-25 player, who outshot the post-season NBA by nearly ten percentage points above the league average.

Of course, using CONTEXT, and they suddenly become GOAT-like.

For instance,... gotta love the "30 ppg RS, 18 (actually 19 BTW) PO" Wilt.

How about this?

What's the difference between Wilt's post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, '68, and his post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '64 and '69?

NONE. Those H2H's basically decided the NBA championship. Plain-and-simple. BUT, in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, and '68...they were the EDF's. And NOT the Finals.

What were Wilt's numbers in those EDF's? 22-25-7; 22-32-10 .556; 28-30 .509; 30-31 .555; and 34-27.

Compare that with Lebron's seven trips to the Finals. Give me a list of a great Eastern team that James beat en route to the Finals. NONE. The ONE team that was great, the '08 Celtics... held Lebron to .355 shooting...and that came in ECSF's.

Not only that, but how take a look at Russell's Finals in his career. SIX of them came against the Lakers. Throw out the '69 Finals, when he faced Wilt, and did nothing offensively...and he was putting up Finals of 23-27-6 on .543 FG%; 20-26-5 on .467; 18-25-6 on get this... a .702 FG%; 24-24-4 .538; and 17-22-6 on .430. That's a combined average of 21-25-5 on a .515 FG%.

Now, how many times did Wilt face those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's? NONE. And how did Wilt fare against those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's... 86 H2H's, and 42 games of 40+, including 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even 2 of 70+!

Prior to 1969, Chamberlain played exactly ONE playoff series against a Western Division team. How did he do? 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .560 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .420.)

Think about that. Had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his prime, he likely would have been going to the Finals nearly every year, and probably hanging 40+ ppg playoff series in several of them.

Furthermore, how about Shaq's Finals? In his wins... against a washed-up Smits in his last season; a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was allowed to bloody to a pulp by some of the worst Finals officiating in NBA history..only the '06 debacle was worse); a career 6 ppg stumblebum in MacCoulloch; and the career bust Dampier. Had a PRIME Chamberlain faced those inept clods, and who knows how many Finals scoring, rebounding, and efficiency records Wilt would hold today.

CONTEXT.

[LAZERUSS]

Using individual matchup a to determine if one player is better than another is idiotic.

I need one explanation from you. Why the MDE scorer went from 30 PPG in the RS to 18 in the Finals when it really mattered. Scroll through your novels and enlighten me grandpa.

And then there is this...


Oh, and then there is this, as well...

[QUOTE]Scoring? How about post-season runs of 28, 29, 33, 35, 35, and 37 ppg? How about post-season series of 37, 37, 39, and 39 ppg? How about post-season series of 28-30, 29-28, 30-31, 31-27, and 34-27 against RUSSELL? How about 13 playoff games of 40+...11 of which came in his 52 playoff games in his "scoring" seasons (21% for those keeping track.) How about MUST WIN games of 45-27 (Finals BTW), 46-34 (against RUSSELL BTW), 50-22, 50-35 (against RUSSELL BTW), and even a 56-35-12 game? As well as another 50 point game in the '64 WDF's. Or series clinching games of 30-32, 30-26, 38-26, and 39-26-10?

How about his MUST WIN playoff games? In his 23 must win playoff games...

31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-seasons that shot .435 in the same span.)

How about his 37 MUST WIN, and SERIES CLINCHING playoff games?

29.5 ppg, 26.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, and on a .546 FG% (again, in post-seasons that shot .435 in that span...or nearly TWELVE percentage points above the league average.)


Rebounding? Simply...the GOAT post-season rebounder in NBA history. Yes, Russell had a slightly higher average... 24.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg...BUT, in their eight playoff series H2H's, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in EVERY one of them. Including margins of 5, 6, and even 9 rpg! Oh, Chamberlain is also the all-time FINALS leading rebounder with a career average of 24.6 rpg.

He played in 13 post-seasons, and his LOW was 20.2 rpg. He also had post-seasons of 28, 29, and even 30 rpg. And he had series of 30 and 31 rpg (both against RUSSELL BTW.) In his LAST post-season, at age 36, and covering 17 games... 22.5 rpg, in a post-season that averaged 50.6 rpg per team (just this last season the NBA averaged 42.0 rpg.) That translates to 19 rpg in the '16 playoffs. In his LAST season.

He played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of them. He was outrebounded by PF Jerry Lucas in ONE...and by a 21.0 to 20.0 rpg margin/ However, when the two faced each other as CENTERS, a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg, outrebounded the 31 year old Lacas, playing 46 mpg, by a 23.2 rpg to 9.8 rpg margin.

Wilt was outrebounding Reed by 14 rpg, Thurmond by 7 rpg, and Russell by 9 rpg.


Playoff RECORDS? Surely this "declining" Wilt would not have any post-season records, right? How about, and by far, the most 20-20 games, the most 30-20 games, the most 20-30 games, the most 30-30 games, the most 40-20 games, the most 40-30 games, the most 50-20 games, and the most 50-30 games? How about the most post-seasons of 20-20, 30-20, 30-25, 35-20?


Blocked shots? Tim Duncan just retired with the "official" post-season blocked shot record of 568 in his 251 playoff games. Well nbastats.net contributor, Julizaver found blocked shot data for 81 of Wilt's 160 post-season games...or roughly half (and almost all of it from the mid-60's on)...and... 590 blocked shots...in 81 games! Hell, an old Wilt blocked 33 shots in his '72 WCF's in the four known games of that series, and 15 of those were on KAJ!

Defense? Wilt held Russell to playoff series FG%'s of .399, .397, .386, and .358 (in a season in which Russell shot .454 against the NBA.) He held Thurmond to playoff series of .392, .373, and .343 (a PEAK Nate BTW...and in a season in which Thurmond shot .437 against the NBA.) He held Bellamy to .450 in a season in which Bellamy shot .521 against the NBA, and then to .421 in a season in which Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA. Oh, can't forget Kareem, either. KAJ shot .577 and .574 against the NBA in '71 and '72. Against Wilt in those two post-seasons? .481 and .457 (including .414 in the last four games of that series.)

How about Wilt's FG% in his six Finals? .559...all while holding his opposing centers (all in the HOF BTW)...to a combined .439. Or how about his two game seven's of the Finals? He outshot Reed and Russell by a combined .708 to .333 margin (all while averaging 19.5 ppg and 25.5 rpg.)


Passing? Find me a CENTER who averaged 9.0 apg in an entire playoff run (which, BTW, led the post-season that year.) Or a center who had two straight triple-double series (28-27-11, and 22-32-10)?


Of course, had a PRIME Wilt faced the likes of a washed Smits, or a 35 year old Mutombo (whom Shaq was allowed to beat to a bloody pulp in some of the most disgraceful offciating in Finals history), or a never-was in the career 6 ppg scoring MacCulloch, or the complete bust in Eric Dampier... in his Finals...no doubt he would have been putting up 30-40-and 50 point playoff games against them.

GOAT.

[RRR3]

Saying "35 year old Mutombo" is pretty disingenuous considering he was DPOY and All-NBA 2nd team that year. We all know which center was 1st team too.

[LAZERUSS]

Saying "35 year old Mutombo" is pretty disingenuous considering he was DPOY and All-NBA 2nd team that year. We all know which center was 1st team too.

"Whom he was allowed to bloody to a pulp..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

Now, you tell me just how many offensive fouls SHOULD have been called in that 47 second sequence alone.

Geezus, lets's just sign Brock Lesnar to a contract and let him play center in the NBA...

If the NBA had allowed Wilt to play like that, guys like Mutombo would have been carried out in bodybags.

[RRR3]

"Whom he was allowed to bloody to a pulp..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

Now, you tell me just how many offensive fouls SHOULD have been called in that 47 second sequence alone.

Geezus, lets's just sign Brock Lesnar to a contract and let him play center in the NBA...

If the NBA had allowed Wilt to play like that, guys like Mutombo would have been carried out in bodybags.
Two for sure, but that doesn't really prove anything. Superstars get away with a lot. In this past finals alone, for instance, consider how often LeBron, Kyrie and Steph Curry push off their defender.

[AirFederer]

Agreed.

How about this goofball from the 60's winning TWO MVPs. Can you imagine him in a league with Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, and Lebron?

http://www.unsportsmanlike.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/steve-nash-carries-a-man-purse.jpg


Take a look at this 60's PG....who was a career .368 shooter BTW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=993UTozPECc

Then take a look at this 6-8 clown from the 60's. That era was so bad that this guy could run away with the rpg title, and in only 35 mpg. He also put up a 26-12 season, as well. Just truly laughable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7TnbhJr8iY


And just look, here was a STARTING CENTER from the 60's, that was 6-5 1/2.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chuck-Hayes-110/


And how do you think the 6-9 Bill Russell would have fared against the 6-11 Dwight Howard?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b265/dharocks/dwight_zps72910c96.jpg

BTW, how about the "6-11" Demarcus Cousins

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/DeMarcus-Cousins-1318/

Oh, and take a look at that Cousins vertical, too.

Can you imagine Cousins looking like this clod...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AlFrOj5Mc


And then how about the "6-11" DeAndre Jordan?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/DeAndre-Jordan-1072/

Or the "7-0" Andre Drummond?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Andre-Drummond-5772/


Can you imagine Kareem, who played in the NBA in 1969, facing a center who gave Shaq all he could handle in the '95 Finals?

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/09/13/20130803-kareem-vs-rockets.nba/

BTW, Kareem was 39 years old in that game. A week later he outscored Patrick Ewing 40-9, and outshot him from the floor by a 15-22 to 3-17 margin.

Nope...no way a prime Kareem would ever make it in today's NBA.


Thanks for giving us all here your brilliant insight. We are all much better off for it.

BTW Wilt is sooo overrated. Sorry bout all them walls of texts peeps. Grandpa out


http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/3/1/31aff-1021769.1145283410650.jpg

http://www.ronaldo7.net/news/2012/cristiano-ronaldo-461-steve-nash-sleeveless-shirt-showing-his-biceps-muscles-while-working-out.jpg

http://www.fifteenminuteswith.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/the_bob_cousy_interview.png

[LAZERUSS]

Two for sure, but that doesn't really prove anything. Superstars get away with a lot. In this past finals alone, for instance, consider how often LeBron, Kyrie and Steph Curry push off their defender.


Those were BLATANT HORRENDOUS offensive fouls. Not to mention the carrying and palming.

He deliberately threw an elbow into the face of Mutombo. DELIBERATELY. He SHOULD have been THROWN out.

AND, he did that almost the entire series. Throwing elbows, and basically RUNNING OVER a helpless Dikembe.

[TommyGriffin]

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/3/1/31aff-1021769.1145283410650.jpg

http://www.ronaldo7.net/news/2012/cristiano-ronaldo-461-steve-nash-sleeveless-shirt-showing-his-biceps-muscles-while-working-out.jpg

http://www.fifteenminuteswith.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/the_bob_cousy_interview.png


http://oi33.tinypic.com/25q817l.jpg

[RRR3]

Those were BLATANT HORRENDOUS offensive fouls. Not to mention the carrying and palming.

He deliberately threw an elbow into the face of Mutombo. DELIBERATELY. He SHOULD have been THROWN out.

AND, he did that almost the entire series. Throwing elbows, and basically RUNNING OVER a helpless Dikembe.
Wilt never fouled out in his entire career and your'e complaining about Shaq not getting called for fouls? :kobe:

[toprange]

:oldlol: present to past tense in a blink of an eye
You should first check with your ESL teacher before posting.

[Mr Feeny]

Wilt never fouled out in his entire career and your'e complaining about Shaq not getting called for fouls? :kobe:

Shaq would average 60 ppg on 80% shooting against scrubs who dribble with one hand:applause:

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt never fouled out in his entire career and your'e complaining about Shaq not getting called for fouls? :kobe:

Go ahead and give us all here a link to footage in which Chamberlain was DELIBERATELY RUNNING OVER his peers.

[LAZERUSS]

Shaq would average 60 ppg on 80% shooting against scrubs who dribble with one hand:applause:

Shaq would have fouled out in the first five minutes of every game. As well as getting called for palming the first time he tried to dribble.

[Mr Feeny]

Shaq would have fouled out in the first five minutes of every game. As well as getting called for palming the first time he tried to dribble.

Shaq would have averaged 60 ppg on 80% shooting.

[LAZERUSS]

Shaq would have averaged 60 ppg on 80% shooting.

I'm sorry, but what are doing here posting any more?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...5&postcount=91


You lost a stupid bet, and vowed to never show your ass on this forum again.

What happened?

Oh, and how about "switching horses in mid-stream" as well?

[Mr Feeny]

Sorry folks but a certain Kobe and Ilt stan is avoiding this:

511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

[Psileas]

Please explain to in what league does the level of competition not increase in the postseason as compared to the regular season?

:facepalm We're not putting emphasis on teams, but on players. Wilt didn't necessarily mostly feast on teams that were weak, but on teams that didn't have a center who was good enough defensively to somewhat limit him, including good teams. E.g, Wilt was destroying the Lakers left and right and that's a team that was a perennial finalist. In more modern eras, when more good teams have/had no great defensive centers, Wilt would feast on more good teams and therefore, have better playoff productivity.


It's no coincidence that Wilt averaged 30 in the RS to 22 in the PO to 18 in the Finals. Hint: It's called getting exposed against better competition.

Hint: This is 100% opinion.
I ask for undeniable proof that Wilt is a playoff underperformer. My figures suggest anything but this.
And it's not 22 and 18, it's 23 and 19.


If you've proven it so many times it should be easy to explain why his scoring decreased every higher level.

It is. It's called not getting fooled by raw numbers. It's funny how the same people that advocate this to Wilt fans are the ones that fall in this trap more easily than anyone. Then again, they can't even round decimals correctly.

[LAZERUSS]

:facepalm We're not putting emphasis on teams, but on players. Wilt didn't necessarily mostly feast on teams that were weak, but on teams that didn't have a center who was good enough defensively to somewhat limit him, including good teams. E.g, Wilt was destroying the Lakers left and right and that's a team that was a perennial finalist. In more modern eras, when more good teams have/had no great defensive centers, Wilt would feast on more good teams and therefore, have better playoff productivity.



Hint: This is 100% opinion.
I ask for undeniable proof that Wilt is a playoff underperformer. My figures suggest anything but this.
And it's not 22 and 18, it's 23 and 19.



It is. It's called not getting fooled by raw numbers. It's funny how the same people that advocate this to Wilt fans are the ones that fall in this trap more easily than anyone. Then again, they can't even round decimals correctly.

Bill Russell vs the Lakers in the '62 Finals...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1962-nba-finals-lakers-vs-celtics.html

Russell vs LA in the '63 Finals...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1963-nba-finals-lakers-vs-celtics.html

Russell vs LA in the '65 Finals...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1965-nba-finals-lakers-vs-celtics.html

Russell vs LA in the '66 Finals...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1966-nba-finals-lakers-vs-celtics.html

Russell vs LA in the '68 Finals...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1968-nba-finals-lakers-vs-celtics.html


Now, the three main Laker centers that Russell faced in those five Finals were Jim Krebs, Leroy Ellis, and Darrell Imhoff.

Chamberlain never faced those guys even once in the playoffs in the decade of the 60's...

but here were his regular season H2H's with them...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Leroy+Ellis&player_id1_select=Leroy+Ellis&player_id1=ellisle01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Darrall+Imhoff&player_id1_select=Darrall+Imhoff&player_id1=imhofda01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Jim+Krebs&player_id1_select=Jim+Krebs&player_id1=krebsji01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01

And even those are deceptive, because they are his career H2H's, ...however, take a look at his numbers up thru '66 (his scoring seasons.)

[Mr Feeny]

Bill Russell vs the Lakers in the '62 Finals...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1962-nba-finals-lakers-vs-celtics.html

Russell vs LA in the '63 Finals...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1963-nba-finals-lakers-vs-celtics.html

Russell vs LA in the '65 Finals...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1965-nba-finals-lakers-vs-celtics.html

Russell vs LA in the '66 Finals...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1966-nba-finals-lakers-vs-celtics.html

Russell vs LA in the '68 Finals...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1968-nba-finals-lakers-vs-celtics.html


Now, the three main Laker centers that Russell faced in those five Finals were Jim Krebs, Leroy Ellis, and Darrell Imhoff.

Chamberlain never faced those guys even once in the playoffs in the decade of the 60's...

but here were his regular season H2H's with them...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Leroy+Ellis&player_id1_select=Leroy+Ellis&player_id1=ellisle01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Darrall+Imhoff&player_id1_select=Darrall+Imhoff&player_id1=imhofda01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Jim+Krebs&player_id1_select=Jim+Krebs&player_id1=krebsji01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01

And even those are deceptive, because they are his career H2H's, ...however, take a look at his numbers up thru '66 (his scoring seasons.)

You still didn't answer my question:

Sorry folks but a certain Kobe and Wilt stan is avoiding this like the plague:

511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

Are these numbers indeed accurate ? Many thanks

[aj1987]

I've shown multiple times that half the times, Wilt's productivity increased in the playoffs compared to his regular season productivity against the same opponents.
Now we're cherrypicking opponents?

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

Dude was a statpadding career loser. Just deal with it.

[AirBonner]

You still didn't answer my question:

Sorry folks but a certain Kobe and Wilt stan is avoiding this like the plague:

511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

Are these numbers indeed accurate ? Many thanks
Laz avoiding this post:lol

[Bankaii]

:facepalm We're not putting emphasis on teams, but on players. Wilt didn't necessarily mostly feast on teams that were weak, but on teams that didn't have a center who was good enough defensively to somewhat limit him, including good teams. E.g, Wilt was destroying the Lakers left and right and that's a team that was a perennial finalist. In more modern eras, when more good teams have/had no great defensive centers, Wilt would feast on more good teams and therefore, have better playoff productivity.



Hint: This is 100% opinion.
I ask for undeniable proof that Wilt is a playoff underperformer. My figures suggest anything but this.
And it's not 22 and 18, it's 23 and 19.



It is. It's called not getting fooled by raw numbers. It's funny how the same people that advocate this to Wilt fans are the ones that fall in this trap more easily than anyone. Then again, they can't even round decimals correctly.
No we're putting an emphasis on the playoffs, where the competition is better because the teams in the playoffs are better than your average RS team.
This is where Wilt's production decreased. Then move on to the Finals where you play the best of the best and Wilts numbers decrease again.

My bad 30>23>19. Still looks like choking to me. This is about as undeniable as is gets. All the real greats: MJ, Shaq, Lebron, Kareem, hell even Kobe, all had either equal or better numbers from the RS to the playoffs. You're supposed to raise your game in the postseason, not wilt(lol) away.

You still haven't posted anything that explains wilts constant decreased production as the stage got bigger. There are 2 posters that have shown Wilt's ppg decreasing from RS to PO.
You on the other hand have posted no facts whatsoever, just ad Homs.

[retaxis]

Just saying.

Nobody is gonna care or have the time to read your posts when you have to go through so much work to convince everyone that he wasn't a choker.
Because Wilt fans generally have socks that are much older than you,

[Hey Yo]

Interesting...

A 39 year old KAJ ROUTINELY dumped 40+ point games on a prime Hakeem, with a high of 46 points, and in only 37 minutes... and all on .630+ FG%'s. A 40 year old Kareem outscored him, and outshot him by a .567 to .403 margin in his 4 H2H's that season.

A PEAK Shaq, put up his career high against a fading Hakeem in the '99 playoffs... of 37 points.

Now, a PEAK Kareem faced a fading Nate Thurmond in some 35 career H2H's. His HIGH game against him was 34 points (and only five total BTW...one less thajn the number of 30+ point games that Kareem poured on Hakeem in 10 straight H2H's at ages 38 and 39.) Oh, and his career FG% against Nate... .447.

On top of that... a PEAK Kareem, in his greatest season of his career...was OUTSCORED and OUTSHOT by an aging Thurmond in the '72 playoffs. BTW, Kareem shot .405 from the floor in that same series.

What does all of that tell you?

Thurmond >>>>>> Hakeem AND Shaq.

Thanks for playing.
Why the need to exaggerate??

That NEVER happened "ROUTINELY"

Links/boxscores to games where 39yr old KAJ was routinely dropping 40 on Akeem??

[Da Real Lambo]

he was a choker just like leshortcut

[LAZERUSS]

Why the need to exaggerate??

That NEVER happened "ROUTINELY"

Links/boxscores to games where 39yr old KAJ was routinely dropping 40 on Akeem??

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id1_select=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id1=olajuha01&hint=Kareem+Abdul-Jabbar&player_id2_select=Kareem+Abdul-Jabbar&player_id2=abdulka01

From 2/5/85 thru 3/16/86, and in a span of 6 games... games of 40, 43, and 46. In those six straight games, Kareem averaged 35.5 ppg on a .641 FG%!

The 46 point outburst came in only 37 minutes, and on a .700 FG%.

Here is footage of it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw_ilZwOMms

The recap...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5398655&postcount=14


Worthy after the game: "Kareem always plays better against Olajuwon. It's because of all the comparisons. He's been around 17 years but he still has to show the kids that he's the best."

Hakeem after the game: "He played real tough. I tried to go around him and steal the ball but he slipped around me and went to the basket."


Los Angeles Times:

While Akeem Olajuwon spent the whole game trying to steal the ball from Abdul-Jabbar, the Laker center spent the whole game throwing down a breathtaking series of hook shots on his way to a 46-point explosion.

For some reason, Rocket Coach Bill Fitch thinks it is a good idea to let Olajuwon go one-on-one with Abdul-Jabbar. It proved to be the biggest coaching blunder in any Laker game this season.

Abdul-Jabbar made 21 of 30 shots in 37 minutes to reach his high this season. He probably could have scored 50 points (his career high is 55) had he played any longer.


In their first ten H2H's, a 38-39 year old Kareem averaged... 32.0 ppg on a .630 FG% against Hakeem. Included were SEVEN games of 30+ points.

It was so bad that Fitch moved SAMPSON onto Kareem in the '86 WCF's (and the Lakers moved their PF, usually Rambis, onto Hakeem.)

Then, Sampson missed all four of their H2H's in the '86-87 season (when KAJ was now 40, and Hakeem was 24)...and KAJ outscored Hakeem per game, 18.8 ppg to 16.8 ppg, and outshoot Hakeem by a ,567 to .403.

A 37-41 year old Kareem outscored a 22-25 year old Hakeem by a 22.5 ppg to 22.3 ppg, and outshot him by a staggering .607 to .512 margin.


Then, how about this...A PEAK KAJ going up against a full-time Thurmond in 34 career H2H's (BTW, Julizaver is a contributor to nbastats.net...and was the FIRST to ever post the Wilt-KAJ H2H's.)

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8277488&postcount=1


I am posting the aggregated stats of Kareem against Nate Thurmond during the period 1969 - 1973 season by season, as in that period both players met 3 times in the playoffs and in total of 34 times (including the regular season meetings):

1969 - 1970 (Kareem's rookie season) 3 games - reg.season

Kareem - 42.0 mpg 21.67 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, 0.348 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 46.7 mpg 20.67 ppg, 17.0 rpg, 3.3 apg, 0.490 FG/FGA

1970 - 1971 6 games - reg.season

Kareem - 26.67 ppg, 14.7 rpg, 0.484 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 23.83 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 0.477 FG/FGA

1970 - 1971 5 games - playoffs

Kareem - 39.2 mpg 27.8 ppg, 15.6 rpg, 0.6 apg, 0.486 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 38.4 mpg 17.60 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 3.0 apg, 0.371 FG/FGA

1971 - 1972 3 games - reg.season

Kareem - 24.00 ppg, 16.3 rpg, 0.441 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 16.33 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 0.260 FG/FGA

1972 - 1973 5 games - playoffs

Kareem - 47.0 mpg 22.8 ppg, 19.0 rpg, 5.4 apg, 0.405 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 46.0 mpg 25.40 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 5.2 apg, 0.434 FG/FGA

1972 - 1973 6 games - reg.season

Kareem - 25.83 ppg, 13.7 rpg, 0.488 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 13.67 ppg, 15.0 rpg, 0.367 FG/FGA

1972 - 1973 6 games - playoffs

Kareem - 46.0 mpg 22.83 ppg, 16.2 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.428 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 42.5 mpg 13.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.2 apg, 0.423 FG/FGA

In those 34 career H2H's with a fading Thurmond...a PEAK Kareem had a TOTAL of FIVE 30+ point games, with a high game of 34 points. Oh, and in those 34 games, Kareem shot .447 from the floor.

[iznogood]

Interesting...

A 39 year old KAJ ROUTINELY dumped 40+ point games on a prime Hakeem, with a high of 46 points, and in only 37 minutes... and all on .630+ FG%'s. A 40 year old Kareem outscored him, and outshot him by a .567 to .403 margin in his 4 H2H's that season.

A PEAK Shaq, put up his career high against a fading Hakeem in the '99 playoffs... of 37 points.

Now, a PEAK Kareem faced a fading Nate Thurmond in some 35 career H2H's. His HIGH game against him was 34 points (and only five total BTW...one less thajn the number of 30+ point games that Kareem poured on Hakeem in 10 straight H2H's at ages 38 and 39.) Oh, and his career FG% against Nate... .447.

On top of that... a PEAK Kareem, in his greatest season of his career...was OUTSCORED and OUTSHOT by an aging Thurmond in the '72 playoffs. BTW, Kareem shot .405 from the floor in that same series.

What does all of that tell you?

Thurmond >>>>>> Hakeem AND Shaq.

Thanks for playing.
Young Hakeem was an atrocious defender and that's the main reason why KAJ was able to score with what appeared to be such an ease. Hakeem was out of position before the inbound pass, trying to go for the steal, or made a foul, when he tried to go for a big block. This is all on tape, not something I'd made up. Hakeem at that time was not a fundamentally sound defender, mostly due to the fact that he started playing basketball so late. His best years as a defender were his late years, when he stopped gambling for steals and blocks and learned how to play patient.

As for Shaq facing Hakeem in the finals, if I remember correctly Shaq was double and triple teamed all the time so he was forced to pass more and shoot less. It definitely doesn't show Shaq's full capacity as a scorer. But he was great at passing out of double teams.

[LAZERUSS]

Young Hakeem was an atrocious defender and that's the main reason why KAJ was able to score with what appeared to be such an ease. Hakeem was out of position before the inbound pass, trying to go for the steal, or made a foul, when he tried to go for a big block. This is all on tape, not something I'd made up. Hakeem at that time was not a fundamentally sound defender, mostly due to the fact that he started playing basketball so late. His best years as a defender were his late years, when he stopped gambling for steals and blocks and learned how to play patient.

As for Shaq facing Hakeem in the finals, if I remember correctly Shaq was double and triple teamed all the time so he was forced to pass more and shoot less. It definitely doesn't show Shaq's full capacity as a scorer. But he was great at passing out of double teams.

Hakeem was 2nd team All-Defense in 84-85, and 1st team All-Defense in 86-87.

As for Shaq...IMHO, he outplayed Hakeem in the '95 Finals. And yes, when they were one-on-one, the numbers gave Shaq a sizeable edge,

Still, a peak Shaq's high game against a fading Hakeem came in the '99 playoffs...of 37 points.

A 38-39 year old Kareem (his ages at the end of the '85 and '86 seasons) averaging 32 ppg on a .630 FG%, with seven games of 30+, and a six game streak of 36 ppg on a .641 FG%, with games of 40, 43, and 46...on Hakeem was just unfathomable.

My god...a 40 year old KAJ averaged 18.8 ppg on a .567 FG% against a FIRST-TEAM All-Defense Hakeem in their four '87 H2H's.

[NuggetsFan]

Honest question for Wilt fans.

1) Why did he have such little team success relative to individual success? He re-wrote the record book. Individually dominated the league to a comical level. Yet only won 2 rings. Sure some of the context would suggest more competitive teams etc. etc. but with that kinda dominance those arguments are kinda invalid. Kinda like if LeBron/Jordan/Shaq only won 2 rings. With that kinda domination there isn't an excuse is there? Yet it seems to be the case. Blaming coaches, opposing teams, constant excuses. Which 99% of the time is the logical thing and would perfect sense but with Wilt's domination I don't think you can do that.

2) Why did he appear to have more success in a smaller scoring role? He had 7 regular seasons above 30 PPG, only 4 playoffs. 1 50+ regular season, 40+ regular season, 0 in the playoffs. Better defense's obviously because the league was much smaller but still being great enough to average 50 points for 80 games yet peaking at 37 in only 3 games? He only averaged 22 points in the playoffs during his first championship. 15 points during his second championship. The rebounding and defense was there.

No agenda. I think Wilt was great relative to his era. A top 10 player of All-Time just because of the individual domination. However I think it's pretty clear alot of that early year domination that was to a ridiculous level could have potentially got in the way of winning rings and was almost globetrotteresque. The fact that he only won what 4 MVP's, finished 2nd team All-NBA twice in his prime including a season where he averaged 45 points a game could suggest that the statistical dominance he had wasn't as large as the actual impact. He lost the MVP to Russell when he averaged 50 points a game? What did others see back than that led them to do that?

Wilt's career doesn't really add up to the tall tales. We've seen ridiculously dominant players before and what they do. Carrying teams and willing teams to the win no matter the circumstances. Wilt got zero rings in his statistical prime, 1 during his prime, and 1 the year before he retired. All the tales, statistical dominance suggest he would be a 8 time MVP with 8 rings :confusedshrug: .. basically the kinda career Russell had. Interesting to note basketball was different back than. Wasn't ISO, star vs star, and a much larger team concept which is why I assume things played out like they did. Wilt was too individually focused and it cost him maybe.

[LAZERUSS]

Honest question for Wilt fans.

1) Why did he have such little team success relative to individual success? He re-wrote the record book. Individually dominated the league to a comical level. Yet only won 2 rings. Sure some of the context would suggest more competitive teams etc. etc. but with that kinda dominance those arguments are kinda invalid. Kinda like if LeBron/Jordan/Shaq only won 2 rings. With that kinda domination there isn't an excuse is there? Yet it seems to be the case. Blaming coaches, opposing teams, constant excuses. Which 99% of the time is the logical thing and would perfect sense but with Wilt's domination I don't think you can do that.

2) Why did he appear to have more success in a smaller scoring role? He had 7 regular seasons above 30 PPG, only 4 playoffs. 1 50+ regular season, 40+ regular season, 0 in the playoffs. Better defense's obviously because the league was much smaller but still being great enough to average 50 points for 80 games yet peaking at 37 in only 3 games? He only averaged 22 points in the playoffs during his first championship. 15 points during his second championship. The rebounding and defense was there.

No agenda. I think Wilt was great relative to his era. A top 10 player of All-Time just because of the individual domination. However I think it's pretty clear alot of that early year domination that was to a ridiculous level could have potentially got in the way of winning rings and was almost globetrotteresque. The fact that he only won what 4 MVP's, finished 2nd team All-NBA twice in his prime including a season where he averaged 45 points a game could suggest that the statistical dominance he had wasn't as large as the actual impact. He lost the MVP to Russell when he averaged 50 points a game? What did others see back than that led them to do that?

Wilt's career doesn't really add up to the tall tales. We've seen ridiculously dominant players before and what they do. Carrying teams and willing teams to the win no matter the circumstances. Wilt got zero rings in his statistical prime, 1 during his prime, and 1 the year before he retired. All the tales, statistical dominance suggest he would be a 8 time MVP with 8 rings :confusedshrug: .. basically the kinda career Russell had. Interesting to note basketball was different back than. Wasn't ISO, star vs star, and a much larger team concept which is why I assume things played out like they did. Wilt was too individually focused and it cost him maybe.

Why did MJ, in his highest scoring season, get swept in the first round, with a .417 FG%, and a clinching game loss of 9-30 from the floor in '87? Why did he go 1-9 in the playoffs in his first three seasons? And how come MJ's scoring and efficiency declined considerably from his regular season numbers when he faced the Bad Boys from '88 thru '90?

And how come MJ didn't win a ring until he played with a roster that had an injury-plagued 55-27 season, withOUT him?

How come a PRIME Kareem, in his first TEN seasons, only went toi TWO Finals, and only won ONE ring? And how come a prime KAJ missed two straight playoffs in the middle of the 70's, and in the weakest era for champions in NBA history?

And how come a PEAK Kareem's numbers fell off the cliff when he faced Thurmond and Wilt in five playoff series from '71 thru '73?

How come Shaq was SWEPT SIX times in the playoffs (and nearly EIGHT)? And how come a PEAK Shaq only went 1-8 against Greg Ostertag, including a series of 23-11 .493? And why did Shaq's scoring and efficiency drop considerably when he faced the Robinson-Spurs from '99-'02, including a 21 ppg .447 series?

And then, when he faced a washed up Smits in last season; and a 35 year old Mutombo...whom the officials allowed to be beaten to a pulp; and a never-was 6 ppg career scoring 6-11 clod in Todd MacCoulloch....he suddenly was putting up 36 ppg Finals?


I could and have covered all of the Wilt "declines", but just to condense them...he took last place rosters, in his scoring seasons, to within 2 and 1 point of beating the GOAT Dynasty. With series of 34-27 and 30-31. With supporting casts that were vastly outmatched, and then also performed way below normal.

Let me give you an example...

In Chamberlain's 64-65 season, he was traded mid-year, for three decent players, to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before. He then single-handedly carried what was a 40-40 team, past Oscar's stacked 48-32 Royals in the first round.

Then, he took that roster, which had gone 34-46 without him...up against the six-time defending champion, and 62-18 Celtics, with SIX HOFers, and at the peal of their dynasty...

to a game seven, one point loss. In a game in which Chamberlain scored 30 pts on 12-15 shooting (and with a .724 TS%), with 32 rebounds. And in that game, he scored Philly's last 8 points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs remaining, and a dunk over Russell with 5 secs left...to pull the Sixers to within 110-109. Then, after the "clutch" Russell hit a guidewire with an inbounds pass, the Sixers had a chance to pull off the greatest upset in NBA playoff history. Alas, a Wilt teammate, Hal Greer, threw an inbounds pass that was picked off by Hondo. Oh, and while Chamberlain shot 12-15 from the floor, his teammates collectively shot 28-75 from the floor.. .373...in that one point loss.

For the series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, with 31.4 rpg (and a 24.8 TRB%), on a .555 FG% (in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .413 overall), and with a .575 TS%.

Oh, and then Boston went on to rout the Baylor-less Lakers in the Finals, 4-1, which included two 30+ point blowout wins. In a series in which Russell averaged 18-25-6 on a .702 FG%. And against this center...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Leroy+Ellis&player_id1_select=Leroy+Ellis&player_id1=ellisle01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...


Compare that with Lebron's '16 Finals. Took a 57-25 team up against a 73-9 team that barely won a seven game series against a 55 win team, and was outscored in that series. Then, after the Warriors went up 3-1, the NBA suspended Draymond Green; Andrew Bogut, their rim-protector, missed the last two games with an injury; and the "Lebron-Stopper" Iguadala injured his back and was just a shell in the last two games of the series.

In the game seven win, Lebron shot 9-24 from the field, including 0-4 in the last four minutes. He needed a great defensive stop by Kevin Love (of all people), and a game winning trey from Kyrie to win the game.

Lebron's game seven stats:

27 points, on 9-24 from the field, with an eFG% of .396, in a game in which the two teams combined to shoot .450. And with a TS% of .475, in a game in which the two teams combined to shoot a TS% of .501.

He also had a teammate score 26 points, on a .478 eFG%, and a .525 TS%.

The best player on the floor in that game seven?

How about Draymond Green, who as you will recall, was suspended in game five. Green put up a game high 32 points, on a .933 eFG% and a .955 TS%, with a game high 15 rebounds.


James had a great series, but not a Wilt-esque '65 EDF's.

29.7 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 8.9 apg on a .533 eFG%, and a .562 TS%, in a series in which both teams shot considerably higher than the teams in Wilt's '65 EDF's.


In any case... Lebron was one shot away from losing the '16 Finals, and Wilt was one bad inbounds pass away from winning a ring in '65.

BTW...none other than John Wooden claimed that had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters in their 10 years in the league together, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

[LAZERUSS]

Honest question for Wilt fans.

1) Why did he have such little team success relative to individual success? He re-wrote the record book. Individually dominated the league to a comical level. Yet only won 2 rings. Sure some of the context would suggest more competitive teams etc. etc. but with that kinda dominance those arguments are kinda invalid. Kinda like if LeBron/Jordan/Shaq only won 2 rings. With that kinda domination there isn't an excuse is there? Yet it seems to be the case. Blaming coaches, opposing teams, constant excuses. Which 99% of the time is the logical thing and would perfect sense but with Wilt's domination I don't think you can do that.

2) Why did he appear to have more success in a smaller scoring role? He had 7 regular seasons above 30 PPG, only 4 playoffs. 1 50+ regular season, 40+ regular season, 0 in the playoffs. Better defense's obviously because the league was much smaller but still being great enough to average 50 points for 80 games yet peaking at 37 in only 3 games? He only averaged 22 points in the playoffs during his first championship. 15 points during his second championship. The rebounding and defense was there.

No agenda. I think Wilt was great relative to his era. A top 10 player of All-Time just because of the individual domination. However I think it's pretty clear alot of that early year domination that was to a ridiculous level could have potentially got in the way of winning rings and was almost globetrotteresque. The fact that he only won what 4 MVP's, finished 2nd team All-NBA twice in his prime including a season where he averaged 45 points a game could suggest that the statistical dominance he had wasn't as large as the actual impact. He lost the MVP to Russell when he averaged 50 points a game? What did others see back than that led them to do that?

Wilt's career doesn't really add up to the tall tales. We've seen ridiculously dominant players before and what they do. Carrying teams and willing teams to the win no matter the circumstances. Wilt got zero rings in his statistical prime, 1 during his prime, and 1 the year before he retired. All the tales, statistical dominance suggest he would be a 8 time MVP with 8 rings :confusedshrug: .. basically the kinda career Russell had. Interesting to note basketball was different back than. Wasn't ISO, star vs star, and a much larger team concept which is why I assume things played out like they did. Wilt was too individually focused and it cost him maybe.

I have read the "bashers" here who have claimed that Wilt won a ring in '67 without being his team's leading scorer. A little perspective...in his very first game of the playoffs that year, he scored 41 points, which would be the team playoff high for the entire post-season. He followed that up with a 37 point game. So...in his first two playoff games... 39.0 ppg on a .654 FG%. In game three, he "only" scored 16 points. What happened? He handed out a then playoff record of 19 assists, to go along with 30 rebounds...or a 16-30-19 triple double (BTW, there were estimates of as high as 20 blocked shots, as well.) For the four game series... 28.0 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and on a .617 FG%.

Then, in the EDF's, and against the eight-time defending, and 60-21 Celtics, he could "only" score 21.6 ppg. Again...perspective. In game one... a 24-32-13-12 verified QUAD DOUBLE, on 9-13 shooting. In game three, Bill Russell grabbed 29 rebounds...great to be sure...except that Wilt grabbed an all-time playoff record of 41. In the clinching game five, Chamberlain scored 29 points, BUT, 22 of them came in the first half when the game was still close. He could have easily scored 40+ had it been necessary (as he had with a 46 point game in the clincher just the year before against Russell.) For the game... 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, and 13 assist (with 7 blocks.)For the series, he outscored Russell, per game, 21.6 ppg to 11.2 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 32.0 rpg to 23.4 rpg; outassisted Russell, per game, 10.0 apg; and outshot him from the floor, .556 to .358.

In the Finals, and against Thurmond, he "only" scored 17.5 ppg and "only" shot .560...to Nate's 14.3 ppg and .343. Here is an example of a Wilt "decline"...all the way down from his regular season averages against Nate of 20.8 ppg on a .633 FG%...and Nate's 13.2 ppg, on a .308 FG%.) He had one game in which he only scored 10 points...to go along with 38 rebounds, 10 assists, and 10 known blocks...or yet, another quad-double. In the clinching game six, he outscored Nate, 24-12; outreblounded Nate, 23-22; and outshot Nate, 8-13 to 4-13 from the field. BTW, Hal Greer, their leading scorer in the post-season...scored 15 points on 5-16 shooting.

For the playoffs... 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.0 apg, and on a .579 FG%. And yes, he could EASILY have scored more. It just wasn't needed.

[Big164]

100 Game...1st
50.4 Season.1st
30.1 Career..1st(tie)
20k Women..1st

Greatest Scorer Ever!!!

[Mr Feeny]

100 Game...1st
50.4 Season.1st
30.1 Career..1st(tie)
20k Women..1st

Greatest Scorer Ever!!!Sorry folks but a certain Kobe and Wilt stan is avoiding this like the plague:

511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

[Psileas]

No we're putting an emphasis on the playoffs, where the competition is better because the teams in the playoffs are better than your average RS team.
This is where Wilt's production decreased. Then move on to the Finals where you play the best of the best and Wilts numbers decrease again.

My bad 30>23>19. Still looks like choking to me. This is about as undeniable as is gets. All the real greats: MJ, Shaq, Lebron, Kareem, hell even Kobe, all had either equal or better numbers from the RS to the playoffs. You're supposed to raise your game in the postseason, not wilt(lol) away.

You still haven't posted anything that explains wilts constant decreased production as the stage got bigger. There are 2 posters that have shown Wilt's ppg decreasing from RS to PO.
You on the other hand have posted no facts whatsoever, just ad Homs.

When you face good teams/players, you face better competition, playoffs or not. And, unless you blatantly coast against inferior competition,you're more likely to have your production dropped against elite competition. Jordan's productivity dropped against the Pistons and the early 90's Knicks. Kareem's productivity dropped against Wilt's Lakers or Thurmond's Warriors. Shaq's productivity dropped against Duncan's and Robinson's Spurs. And this concerns both regular season and playoffs. I haven't seen you address their cases. They look like choke cases as much as Wilt's. Difference being, they weren't facing these elite defenses year after year, in postseasons that consisted of fewer rounds (so that they can't pad their numbers by feasting on weaker defenders in other rounds) like Wilt was.
Trying to ignore these facts and insisting on merely comparing regular season vs playoff numbers is simply being in denial. It's as simplistic as posting the "Horry 7 rings, I'm not hearing you anymore, lalala!" thing over and over to make the case that Horry > Legends.

[Mr Feeny]

When you face good teams/players, you face better competition, playoffs or not. And, unless you blatantly coast against inferior competition,you're more likely to have your production dropped against elite competition. Jordan's productivity dropped against the Pistons and the early 90's Knicks. Kareem's productivity dropped against Wilt's Lakers or Thurmond's Warriors. Shaq's productivity dropped against Duncan's and Robinson's Spurs. And this concerns both regular season and playoffs. I haven't seen you address their cases. They look like choke cases as much as Wilt's. Difference being, they weren't facing these elite defenses year after year, in postseasons that consisted of fewer rounds (so that they can't pad their numbers by feasting on weaker defenders in other rounds) like Wilt was.
Trying to ignore these facts and insisting on merely comparing regular season vs playoff numbers is simply being in denial. It's as simplistic as posting the "Horry 7 rings, I'm not hearing you anymore, lalala!" thing over and over to make the case that Horry > Legends.

Jordan's productivity didn't drop to 18 ppg. It actually increased in the playoffs and finals.
Lebron's productivity INCREASED against the only 73 win in history with 30 ppg, 11 rpg, 9 apg, 3 spg , and 3 bpg and 36 ppg, 13 rpg, 9 apg last year.

Its only Wilt who's production decreased THAT much when the going got tough.

[Psileas]

Jordan's productivity didn't drop to 18 ppg. It actually increased in the playoffs and finals.
Lebron's productivity INCREASED against the only 73 win in history with 30 ppg, 11 rpg, 9 apg, 3 spg , and 3 bpg and 36 ppg, 13 rpg, 9 apg last year.

Its only Wilt who's production decreased THAT much when the going got tough.

Listen, troll, I normally have you on my ignore list and therefore avoid looking at your crap. You have addressed NOTHING among what I've posted, so next time try harder or I won't even bother. I'm talking about elite defenders, you're talking about Finals, as if the Finals are suddenly going to make an injured Byron Scott or Jeff Hornacek or Bryon Russell elite defenders. They won't. Jordan's stats dropped when he faced the only elite defender of that group in the Finals (Payton), they dropped each time he faced the Pistons, they dropped when he was facing the early 90's Knicks. And Russell/Thurmond were still better defenders than anyone who played in those teams and than anyone that Jordan ever faced, so it's justified that Wilt's productivity drops even more.
As for LeBron, good for him for 2016, but that won't erase his earlier career struggles against the Celtics or against the Spurs. Nor is averaging 36 ppg on Iversonian efficiency worthy of extreme praise, sorry.

[Mr Feeny]

Listen, troll, I normally have you on my ignore list and therefore avoid looking at your crap. You have addressed NOTHING among what I've posted, so next time try harder or I won't even bother. I'm talking about elite defenders, you're talking about Finals, as if the Finals are suddenly going to make an injured Byron Scott or Jeff Hornacek or Bryon Russell elite defenders. They won't. Jordan's stats dropped when he faced the only elite defender of that group in the Finals (Payton), they dropped each time he faced the Pistons, they dropped when he was facing the early 90's Knicks. And Russell/Thurmond were still better defenders than anyone who played in those teams and than anyone that Jordan ever faced, so it's justified that Wilt's productivity drops even more.
As for LeBron, good for him for 2016, but that won't erase his earlier career struggles against the Celtics or against the Spurs. Nor is averaging 36 ppg on Iversonian efficiency worthy of extreme praise, sorry.

Listen troll but we're talking about production when it counts - playoffs and finals.
Ilt is the only guy who gets annihilated constantly when it counts.
Jordan averaged over 30 against the bad boy pistons. Ilt struggled against anyone whenever he reached the finals.

As far as LeBron goes, he's fine with the totality of what he's done. A 30 point triple double and leading both teams in all categories as he defeats a 73 win team is worth more than everything Wilt accomplished in his career, put together .

Keep crying

[SouBeachTalents]

Honest question for Wilt fans.

1) Why did he have such little team success relative to individual success? He re-wrote the record book. Individually dominated the league to a comical level. Yet only won 2 rings. Sure some of the context would suggest more competitive teams etc. etc. but with that kinda dominance those arguments are kinda invalid. Kinda like if LeBron/Jordan/Shaq only won 2 rings. With that kinda domination there isn't an excuse is there? Yet it seems to be the case. Blaming coaches, opposing teams, constant excuses. Which 99% of the time is the logical thing and would perfect sense but with Wilt's domination I don't think you can do that.

2) Why did he appear to have more success in a smaller scoring role? He had 7 regular seasons above 30 PPG, only 4 playoffs. 1 50+ regular season, 40+ regular season, 0 in the playoffs. Better defense's obviously because the league was much smaller but still being great enough to average 50 points for 80 games yet peaking at 37 in only 3 games? He only averaged 22 points in the playoffs during his first championship. 15 points during his second championship. The rebounding and defense was there.

No agenda. I think Wilt was great relative to his era. A top 10 player of All-Time just because of the individual domination. However I think it's pretty clear alot of that early year domination that was to a ridiculous level could have potentially got in the way of winning rings and was almost globetrotteresque. The fact that he only won what 4 MVP's, finished 2nd team All-NBA twice in his prime including a season where he averaged 45 points a game could suggest that the statistical dominance he had wasn't as large as the actual impact. He lost the MVP to Russell when he averaged 50 points a game? What did others see back than that led them to do that?

Wilt's career doesn't really add up to the tall tales. We've seen ridiculously dominant players before and what they do. Carrying teams and willing teams to the win no matter the circumstances. Wilt got zero rings in his statistical prime, 1 during his prime, and 1 the year before he retired. All the tales, statistical dominance suggest he would be a 8 time MVP with 8 rings :confusedshrug: .. basically the kinda career Russell had. Interesting to note basketball was different back than. Wasn't ISO, star vs star, and a much larger team concept which is why I assume things played out like they did. Wilt was too individually focused and it cost him maybe.

Agreed with this 100%. I know he had to go against a superior Celtic team the majority of his career, but anyway you slice it, to basically own the record book but only come away with 2 rings has to be considered disappointing, as does his ppg dropping off from the regular season to the postseason every season of his career

[LostCause]

It's really unfortunate that his name is synonymous with faltering. That just doesn't help at all

[Hey Yo]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id1_select=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id1=olajuha01&hint=Kareem+Abdul-Jabbar&player_id2_select=Kareem+Abdul-Jabbar&player_id2=abdulka01

From 2/5/85 thru 3/16/86, and in a span of 6 games... games of 40, 43, and 46. In those six straight games, Kareem averaged 35.5 ppg on a .641 FG%!

The 46 point outburst came in only 37 minutes, and on a .700 FG%.
Your link shows that Kareem was 38yrs old during those games. Plus that 85-86 season, he was First Team All-NBA so it wasn't like he only played some good games against Houston.

When they met in the WCF that season.....Hakeem out-scored and out-rebounded KAJ while winning the series 4-1.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1986-nba-western-conference-finals-rockets-vs-lakers.html

[Helix]

Listen troll but we're talking about production when it counts - playoffs and finals.
Ilt is the only guy who gets annihilated constantly when it counts.
Jordan averaged over 30 against the bad boy pistons. Ilt struggled against anyone whenever he reached the finals.

As far as LeBron goes, he's fine with the totality of what he's done. A 30 point triple double and leading both teams in all categories as he defeats a 73 win team is worth more than everything Wilt accomplished in his career, put together .

Keep crying


I really see no need to justify the career of Wilt Chamberlain, the GREATEST/BEST big man to ever step onto a basketball court. However, moronic trolls like you with your incessant need to make dishonest posts about Wilt calls for a response. Now I realize that posting the truth will have no effect on people like you, but what the hell.

Anyone that knows anything about Wilt and his career knows that he fulfilled different roles throughout his career. His first four years his role was to score. Score like no one else ever has.....or could. He averaged 43 points per game. And during that four year period as an all out scorer he played in a grand total of ZERO finals games.

His next three years, half of which was played under coach Alex Hannum (the first really good coach he played for), and the other half with the Sixers who had considerably more talent than his previous team. Over that three year period, having cut back his shooting by about 17%, he averaged 35 points per game. And during that three year period he played in a grand total of FIVE finals games.

His next two years with the Sixers and playing for Hannum again, he cut back his shooting even more. His role offensively was as much a passer as it was a scorer, and he raised his defensive presence to the same level as Russell and Thurmond. He averaged 24 points per game over those two years and appeared in SIX finals games.

His final five years as a Laker his role was more defensive than offensive, especially his last two years. He averaged under 18 points per game over those five years. And how many finals games did he appear in? 24 Yes, that's right.....24. He appeared in more than twice as many finals games with his primary role being defensive. That's the main reason for his ppg drop off. And certainly stiffer competition also was a factor, although much less than what role he was fulfilling.

I find it disgusting the way trolls like you come on here and disparage Chamberalin like you do. If you knew anything at all about what Wilt did for the NBA you might think twice about your trolling. Then again, I doubt it. Know this.......it's no coincidence that when Wilt first stepped onto an NBA court in 1959 there were eight teams with ten players each, and when he walked off the court for the last time in 1973 there were seventeen teams with twelve players each. And a whole other league. There are a lot of people that understand what went on back then and they'll tell you, just as I'm telling you, that had Wilt stayed with the Globetrotters and not joined the NBA, the NBA very well may not have survived.

[ClipperRevival]

I really see no need to justify the career of Wilt Chamberlain, the GREATEST/BEST big man to ever step onto a basketball court. However, moronic trolls like you with your incessant need to make dishonest posts about Wilt calls for a response. Now I realize that posting the truth will have no effect on people like you, but what the hell.

Anyone that knows anything about Wilt and his career knows that he fulfilled different roles throughout his career. His first four years his role was to score. Score like no one else ever has.....or could. He averaged 43 points per game. And during that four year period as an all out scorer he played in a grand total of ZERO finals games.

His next three years, half of which was played under coach Alex Hannum (the first really good coach he played for), and the other half with the Sixers who had considerably more talent than his previous team. Over that three year period, having cut back his shooting by about 17%, he averaged 35 points per game. And during that three year period he played in a grand total of FIVE finals games.

His next two years with the Sixers and playing for Hannum again, he cut back his shooting even more. His role offensively was as much a passer as it was a scorer, and he raised his defensive presence to the same level as Russell and Thurmond. He averaged 24 points per game over those two years and appeared in SIX finals games.

His final five years as a Laker his role was more defensive than offensive, especially his last two years. He averaged under 18 points per game over those five years. And how many finals games did he appear in? 24 Yes, that's right.....24. He appeared in more than twice as many finals games with his primary role being defensive. That's the main reason for his ppg drop off. And certainly stiffer competition also was a factor, although much less than what role he was fulfilling.

I find it disgusting the way trolls like you come on here and disparage Chamberalin like you do. If you knew anything at all about what Wilt did for the NBA you might think twice about your trolling. Then again, I doubt it. Know this.......it's no coincidence that when Wilt first stepped onto an NBA court in 1959 there were eight teams with ten players each, and when he walked off the court for the last time in 1973 there were seventeen teams with twelve players each. And a whole other league. There are a lot of people that understand what went on back then and they'll tell you, just as I'm telling you, that had Wilt stayed with the Globetrotters and not joined the NBA, the NBA very well may not have survived.

So let me ask you this. Was Wilt free of faults in some of the games when it mattered most? Or was it always some other factor that prevented him from winning more rings?

[Helix]

So let me ask you this. Was Wilt free of faults in some of the games when it mattered most? Or was it always some other factor that prevented him from winning more rings?


I will answer you this way......Wilt was always the primary reason his teams went as far as they did. And for the most part, it WAS other factors that prevented him from winning more championships.

[aj1987]

"GREATEST/BEST big man to ever step onto a basketball court"... :roll: :roll:

What a crock of shit. Shaq >>>>>>> the statpadder and it's not particularly close either.

[Helix]

"GREATEST/BEST big man to ever step onto a basketball court"... :roll: :roll:

What a crock of shit. Shaq >>>>>>> the statpadder and it's not particularly close either.


You know son, I'd have more respect for you if you had at least said Kareem, who by the way is second behind Wilt. And statpadder? That just shows me your dismal lack of knowledge of NBA history.

[aj1987]

You know son, I'd have more respect for you if you had at least said Kareem, who by the way is second behind Wilt. And statpadder? That just shows me your dismal lack of knowledge of NBA history.
Unlike you, I don't hold chokers and mental midgets in too high of a regard, when it comes to all-time rankings. Sure, I have KAJ as #2 GOAT and Shaq right there at #4/#5.

You might want to actually research about the choker before you put him on a pedestal, kid. It's quite obvious that you're a part of the chokers apologist brigade, who blame his teammates/coaches for all his failures and shortcomings.

[ClipperRevival]

I will answer you this way......Wilt was always the primary reason his teams went as far as they did. And for the most part, it WAS other factors that prevented him from winning more championships.

So in other words: not his fault. Gotcha.

[LAZERUSS]

Your link shows that Kareem was 38yrs old during those games. Plus that 85-86 season, he was First Team All-NBA so it wasn't like he only played some good games against Houston.

When they met in the WCF that season.....Hakeem out-scored and out-rebounded KAJ while winning the series 4-1.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1986-nba-western-conference-finals-rockets-vs-lakers.html

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12598280&postcount=65


It was so bad that Fitch moved SAMPSON onto Kareem in the '86 WCF's (and the Lakers moved their PF, usually Rambis, onto Hakeem.)


Hakeem did NOT defend KAJ, nor did KAJ defend Hakeem in the '86 WCF's (at least not anywhere near a full-time basis.)

SAMPSON did a great job against Kareem...who was 39 years at the time (look up his birthday.)

Furthermore, outscoring a 39 year old Kareem by a 31-27 margin was STILL a joke.

How do you think a 23 year old Kareem, which was already his PEAK, would have fared against the washed has-been that a 39 year old Hakeem was???

If a 39 year old could pour in 46 points against a helpless 23 year old Hakeem, then a 23 year old KAJ might have challenged Wilt's 100 point game against a 39 year old Olajuwon.

[LAZERUSS]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

These morons and Wilt's "Finals."

One more time for the illiterate here...


Because the evidence is so overwhelming. You could write BOOKS on Chamberlain's dominance in BOTH the regular season AND the post-season.

As for "choker"...

even if we were to take his playoff stats at face value (and not using CONTEXT)... a CAREER 23-25 player, who outshot the post-season NBA by nearly ten percentage points above the league average.

Of course, using CONTEXT, and they suddenly become GOAT-like.

For instance,... gotta love the "30 ppg RS, 18 (actually 19 BTW) PO" Wilt.

How about this?

What's the difference between Wilt's post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, '68, and his post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '64 and '69?

NONE. Those H2H's basically decided the NBA championship. Plain-and-simple. BUT, in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, and '68...they were the EDF's. And NOT the Finals.

What were Wilt's numbers in those EDF's? 22-25-7; 22-32-10 .556; 28-30 .509; 30-31 .555; and 34-27.

Compare that with Lebron's seven trips to the Finals. Give me a list of a great Eastern team that James beat en route to the Finals. NONE. The ONE team that was great, the '08 Celtics... held Lebron to .355 shooting...and that came in ECSF's.

Not only that, but how take a look at Russell's Finals in his career. SIX of them came against the Lakers. Throw out the '69 Finals, when he faced Wilt, and did nothing offensively...and he was putting up Finals of 23-27-6 on .543 FG%; 20-26-5 on .467; 18-25-6 on get this... a .702 FG%; 24-24-4 .538; and 17-22-6 on .430. That's a combined average of 21-25-5 on a .515 FG%.

Now, how many times did Wilt face those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's? NONE. And how did Wilt fare against those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's... 86 H2H's, and 42 games of 40+, including 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even 2 of 70+!

Prior to 1969, Chamberlain played exactly ONE playoff series against a Western Division team. How did he do? 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .560 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .420.)

Think about that. Had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his prime, he likely would have been going to the Finals nearly every year, and probably hanging 40+ ppg playoff series in several of them.

Furthermore, how about Shaq's Finals? In his wins... against a washed-up Smits in his last season; a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was allowed to bloody to a pulp by some of the worst Finals officiating in NBA history..only the '06 debacle was worse); a career 6 ppg stumblebum in MacCoulloch; and the career bust Dampier. Had a PRIME Chamberlain faced those inept clods, and who knows how many Finals scoring, rebounding, and efficiency records Wilt would hold today.

CONTEXT.

Again...take a look at '65. Chamberlain dragged a team that had gone 34-46 the year before without him (and traded three players to get him) to a game seven, one point loss against the HOF-laden 62-18 Celtics. With a 30-31 .555 series (in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .413 BTW...or WOW... 14 percentage points higher than the series average! See how many other greats accomplsied that, and against a HOF center.)

Then, the Celtics routed the Baylor-less Lakers in the Finals, 4-1, which included two huge blowout wins. The only other team to ever suffer a more brutal beatdown... you guessed it...LEBRON's '14 Heat.

So, as was nearly always the case in the decade of the 60's...the NBA CHAMPIONSHIP was actually decided in the EDF's (well actually, anytime Wilt and the Celtics matched up.)

BTW, had Wilt had the good fortune to have been in the Western Division that decade...like Lebron was in the POS East his ENTIRE career...and he would have no doubt been battling the Lakers in the playoffs.

In '65, he would have faced this center (who was still considerably better than Todd MacCulloch ever was BTW)...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Leroy+Ellis&player_id1_select=Leroy+Ellis&player_id1=ellisle01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01

Just how many scoring, rebounding, and efficiency records would Chamberlain had set had he even ONE playoff series against LA in the 60's?

[Smoke117]

I think we can all agree that Ilt stans are the absolute worst...obnoxious, senile, old men.

[Bankaii]

When you face good teams/players, you face better competition, playoffs or not. And, unless you blatantly coast against inferior competition,you're more likely to have your production dropped against elite competition. Jordan's productivity dropped against the Pistons and the early 90's Knicks. Kareem's productivity dropped against Wilt's Lakers or Thurmond's Warriors. Shaq's productivity dropped against Duncan's and Robinson's Spurs. And this concerns both regular season and playoffs. I haven't seen you address their cases. They look like choke cases as much as Wilt's. Difference being, they weren't facing these elite defenses year after year, in postseasons that consisted of fewer rounds (so that they can't pad their numbers by feasting on weaker defenders in other rounds) like Wilt was.
Trying to ignore these facts and insisting on merely comparing regular season vs playoff numbers is simply being in denial. It's as simplistic as posting the "Horry 7 rings, I'm not hearing you anymore, lalala!" thing over and over to make the case that Horry > Legends.
I don't know if you can't read or simply don't understand.
Playoff teams>Regular season teams. Period. That's the case for any era/sport.

The FACT of the matter is that MJ, Lebron, Shaq, Kareem, Kobe etc all have equal or better playoff numbers compared to their RS numbers.

The only top 10 GOAT that has such a massive drop off in PPG from the RS to the PO is Wilt. There's a reason for that, it's no coincidence.
Even Russell increased his scoring production from the RS to PO.

Just accept that Wilt is a postseason choker.
You keep going on about your facts and haven't posted any at all. Just excuses and deflection.

[Helix]

So in other words: not his fault. Gotcha.


As I said........for the most part.

[iznogood]

Hakeem was 2nd team All-Defense in 84-85, and 1st team All-Defense in 86-87.

As for Shaq...IMHO, he outplayed Hakeem in the '95 Finals. And yes, when they were one-on-one, the numbers gave Shaq a sizeable edge,

Still, a peak Shaq's high game against a fading Hakeem came in the '99 playoffs...of 37 points.

A 38-39 year old Kareem (his ages at the end of the '85 and '86 seasons) averaging 32 ppg on a .630 FG%, with seven games of 30+, and a six game streak of 36 ppg on a .641 FG%, with games of 40, 43, and 46...on Hakeem was just unfathomable.

My god...a 40 year old KAJ averaged 18.8 ppg on a .567 FG% against a FIRST-TEAM All-Defense Hakeem in their four '87 H2H's.
I think Hakeem in the second half of the 80s was a lot like Anthony Davis is right now. An amazing athlete, who was able to get great steals, blocks and rebounding numbers, but far from a good post defender. You really have to look at the film to see this. Look at how often he gives up a deep position when he tries to steal an entry pass or gives ground only to have a chance at blocking his opponent. He was not a bad defender per se, but in my opinion he was much much better defender in the 90s (especially in the post) due to his effort to play more disciplined on defense.

Even bigger problem was the fact that Hakeem was not full physically developed and was visibly undepowered against Hakeem, who was by the time a grown man. I also think this was the main reason KAJ didn't do well against Thurmond. Thurmond was a physical player and KAJ in terms of his body development much like Hakeem became stronger as he grew older.

A further reason which makes me think Hakeem against KAJ compared to Shaq is not the greatest comparison because KAJ at the time didn't receive the same defensive attention Shaq did when he faced the Rockets in the finals.

And I don't think KAJ having big scoring games even at a late age is surprising or saying much about what kind of defense he faced. KAJ had an amazing combination of size and skill and his game was perfect to age well. Pau Gasol had one of his best seasons at the age of 35.

[Smoke117]

I think Hakeem in the second half of the 80s was a lot like Anthony Davis is right now. An amazing athlete, who was able to get great steals, blocks and rebounding numbers, but far from a good post defender. You really have to look at the film to see this. Look at how often he gives up a deep position when he tries to steal an entry pass or gives ground only to have a chance at blocking his opponent. He was not a bad defender per se, but in my opinion he was much much better defender in the 90s (especially in the post) due to his effort to play more disciplined on defense.

Even bigger problem was the fact that Hakeem was not full physically developed and was visibly undepowered against Hakeem, who was by the time a grown man. I also think this was the main reason KAJ didn't do well against Thurmond. Thurmond was a physical player and KAJ in terms of his body development much like Hakeem became stronger as he grew older.

A further reason which makes me think Hakeem against KAJ compared to Shaq is not the greatest comparison because KAJ at the time didn't receive the same defensive attention Shaq did when he faced the Rockets in the finals.

And I don't think KAJ having big scoring games even at a late age is surprising or saying much about what kind of defense he faced. KAJ had an amazing combination of size and skill and his game was perfect to age well. Pau Gasol had one of his best seasons at the age of 35.

Hakeem was the best defensive player in the league by 88.

[Psileas]

I don't know if you can't read or simply don't understand.
Playoff teams>Regular season teams. Period. That's the case for any era/sport.

The FACT of the matter is that MJ, Lebron, Shaq, Kareem, Kobe etc all have equal or better playoff numbers compared to their RS numbers.

The only top 10 GOAT that has such a massive drop off in PPG from the RS to the PO is Wilt. There's a reason for that, it's no coincidence.
Even Russell increased his scoring production from the RS to PO.

Just accept that Wilt is a postseason choker.
You keep going on about your facts and haven't posted any at all. Just excuses and deflection.

Dude, I and other have been providing you with the answer and you just don't want to hear it, because it doesn't serve your blind belief: Wilt faced 2 all-time elite defenders in the playoffs in a much higher percentage of times compared to all these players you mention (more than 40% of ALL his playoff games are against these 2 guys alone) - and I don't even include Kareem or Willis Reed here, although they were also very good defenders - if I did, this percentage would jump at an absurd 60%.

Please, tell me, how many times did Jordan face the Pistons, '92-'93 Knicks or Payton? Anywhere near 73? Nope, just 31. How many times did Kareem face Wilt and Thurmond? Anywhere near 98? Not even close. Only 22. Did Shaq face Duncan's/Robinson's Spurs or early 2000's Portland 89 times? No, nowhere near.
Do Jordan or Kareem or Shaq average what they averaged if the tables are turned this way? All evidence, based on their actual playoff games against them, points to an emphatic no. Does this turn them into chokers? If it does this to Wilt, then, yes, it also does this to them.

[LAZERUSS]

Dude, I and other have been providing you with the answer and you just don't want to hear it, because it doesn't serve your blind belief: Wilt faced 2 all-time elite defenders in the playoffs in a much higher percentage of times compared to all these players you mention (more than 40% of ALL his playoff games are against these 2 guys alone) - and I don't even include Kareem or Willis Reed here, although they were also very good defenders - if I did, this percentage would jump at an absurd 60%.

Please, tell me, how many times did Jordan face the Pistons, '92-'93 Knicks or Payton? Anywhere near 73? Nope, just 31. How many times did Kareem face Wilt and Thurmond? Anywhere near 98? Not even close. Only 22. Did Shaq face Duncan's/Robinson's Spurs or early 2000's Portland 89 times? No, nowhere near.
Do Jordan or Kareem or Shaq average what they averaged if the tables are turned this way? All evidence, based on their actual playoff games against them, points to an emphatic no. Does this turn them into chokers? If it does this to Wilt, then, yes, it also does this to them.

THIS!

Why does this constantly have to be repeated here???

How about these...

Wilt played in 52 playoff games, out of his 160 total playoff games...in his "scoring seasons." Why is that important? Because his "scoring" seasons were spilt right down the middle of his career. In his first seven seasons, he led the league in scoring EVERY year. His last seasons were basically comprised of two other splits... a more "balanced" Wilt (again, this was asked for by his COACHES); and then a "post-injury" Wilt, in which his COACHES essentially asked him to focus on defense, rebounding, and the outlet.

BUT, look at the playoff breakdown. 52 games of 160...or less than one-third. He didn't have 80 games in his "scoring" prime, but rather... 52. FURTHERMORE, in those 52 games, he faced RUSSELL and his swarming Celtics in...get this... 30 of them? Or 60% of his "scoring" season playoff games came against the GOAT defensive center in NBA history, as well as the GOAT defensive TEAM in NBA history (just look at the DRtgs of the 60's Celtics, and compare them against the league.)

Then, 62 of his playoff games came AFTER his INJURY. That's 40% of his post-season career. Guess what... 11 games against the best defensive team of the early 70's, the Bucks. 10 games against the HOF-laden Knicks (5 and 6 HOFers in those two series); 5 games against Nate Thurmond, who CONSISTENTLY shut a PEAK Kareem down. Nearly 50% of his 62 post-injury games came against ELITE defenses and defenders.

Even in the middle of his career...from '67 thru '69...56 games...19 against Russell and the Celtics, 6 against the HOF-laden Knicks, and 12 against Thurmond...or 37 of those 56 games.

The reality was, Chamberlain faced an ELITE HOF center in nearly TWO-THIRDS of his post-season career.

[Nilocon165]

THIS!

Why does this constantly have to be repeated here???

How about these...

Wilt played in 52 playoff games, out of his 160 total playoff games...in his "scoring seasons." Why is that important? Because his "scoring" seasons were spilt right down the middle of his career. In his first seven seasons, he led the league in scoring EVERY year. His last seasons were basically comprised of two other splits... a more "balanced" Wilt (again, this was asked for by his COACHES); and then a "post-injury" Wilt, in which his COACHES essentially asked him to focus on defense, rebounding, and the outlet.

BUT, look at the playoff breakdown. 52 games of 160...or less than one-third. He didn't have 80 games in his "scoring" prime, but rather... 52. FURTHERMORE, in those 52 games, he faced RUSSELL and his swarming Celtics in...get this... 30 of them? Or 60% of his "scoring" season playoff games came against the GOAT defensive center in NBA history, as well as the GOAT defensive TEAM in NBA history (just look at the DRtgs of the 60's Celtics, and compare them against the league.)

Then, 62 of his playoff games came AFTER his INJURY. That's 40% of his post-season career. Guess what... 11 games against the best defensive team of the early 70's, the Bucks. 10 games against the HOF-laden Knicks (5 and 6 HOFers in those two series); 5 games against Nate Thurmond, who CONSISTENTLY shut a PEAK Kareem down. Nearly 50% of his 62 post-injury games came against ELITE defenses and defenders.

Even in the middle of his career...from '67 thru '69...56 games...19 against Russell and the Celtics, 6 against the HOF-laden Knicks, and 12 against Thurmond...or 37 of those 56 games.

The reality was, Chamberlain faced an ELITE HOF center in nearly TWO-THIRDS of his post-season career.
But can he dunk?

[LAZERUSS]

Because the evidence is so overwhelming. You could write BOOKS on Chamberlain's dominance in BOTH the regular season AND the post-season.

As for "choker"...

even if we were to take his playoff stats at face value (and not using CONTEXT)... a CAREER 23-25 player, who outshot the post-season NBA by nearly ten percentage points above the league average.

Of course, using CONTEXT, and they suddenly become GOAT-like.

For instance,... gotta love the "30 ppg RS, 18 (actually 19 BTW) PO" Wilt.

How about this?

What's the difference between Wilt's post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, '68, and his post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '64 and '69?

NONE. Those H2H's basically decided the NBA championship. Plain-and-simple. BUT, in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, and '68...they were the EDF's. And NOT the Finals.

What were Wilt's numbers in those EDF's? 22-25-7; 22-32-10 .556; 28-30 .509; 30-31 .555; and 34-27.

Compare that with Lebron's seven trips to the Finals. Give me a list of a great Eastern team that James beat en route to the Finals. NONE. The ONE team that was great, the '08 Celtics... held Lebron to .355 shooting...and that came in ECSF's.

Not only that, but how take a look at Russell's Finals in his career. SIX of them came against the Lakers. Throw out the '69 Finals, when he faced Wilt, and did nothing offensively...and he was putting up Finals of 23-27-6 on .543 FG%; 20-26-5 on .467; 18-25-6 on get this... a .702 FG%; 24-24-4 .538; and 17-22-6 on .430. That's a combined average of 21-25-5 on a .515 FG%.

Now, how many times did Wilt face those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's? NONE. And how did Wilt fare against those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's... 86 H2H's, and 42 games of 40+, including 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even 2 of 70+!

Prior to 1969, Chamberlain played exactly ONE playoff series against a Western Division team. How did he do? 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .560 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .420.)

Think about that. Had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his prime, he likely would have been going to the Finals nearly every year, and probably hanging 40+ ppg playoff series in several of them.

Furthermore, how about Shaq's Finals? In his wins... against a washed-up Smits in his last season; a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was allowed to bloody to a pulp by some of the worst Finals officiating in NBA history..only the '06 debacle was worse); a career 6 ppg stumblebum in MacCoulloch; and the career bust Dampier. Had a PRIME Chamberlain faced those inept clods, and who knows how many Finals scoring, rebounding, and efficiency records Wilt would hold today.

CONTEXT.

Look at the bolded. Chamberlain never faced the Lakers in even ONE playoff GAME in the decade of the 60's.

Here are the three centers that LA had in that decade...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Leroy+Ellis&player_id1_select=Leroy+Ellis&player_id1=ellisle01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Jim+Krebs&player_id1_select=Jim+Krebs&player_id1=krebsji01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Darrall+Imhoff&player_id1_select=Darrall+Imhoff&player_id1=imhofda01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01

And before some idiot claims that these guys were dorks...

They were all considerably more skilled than Todd MacCulloch, who was a complete waste in the NBA. The same MacCulloch that Shaq destroyed in the '02 Finals.

[iznogood]

Hakeem was the best defensive player in the league by 88.
Maybe he was, but I don't think he was a great low post defender. I named Anthony Davis as an example how this is possible and I could name more. DeAndre Jordan was considered by many a DPOY level defender in 2015 because of his shot blocking abilities and his pick and roll defense. But Tim Duncan was scoring with ease anytime he got a chance to play 1:1. Kendrick Perkins was a better man defender against Duncan that year. Was Perkins a better defende? Absolutely not.

[Big164]

I don't know if you can't read or simply don't understand.
Playoff teams>Regular season teams. Period. That's the case for any era/sport.

The FACT of the matter is that MJ, Lebron, Shaq, Kareem, Kobe etc all have equal or better playoff numbers compared to their RS numbers.


Thats because its not hard for a pedestrian to repeat a pedestrian performance in the playoffs. None of the names you mentioned ever did anything like this:

http://images.thepostgame.com/sites/default/files/Main-athlete-currency-compressor.jpg

HUmans can do 81% of this at best, WIlt was a God.

[Smoke117]

Maybe he was, but I don't think he was a great low post defender. I named Anthony Davis as an example how this is possible and I could name more. DeAndre Jordan was considered by many a DPOY level defender in 2015 because of his shot blocking abilities and his pick and roll defense. But Tim Duncan was scoring with ease anytime he got a chance to play 1:1. Kendrick Perkins was a better man defender against Duncan that year. Was Perkins a better defende? Absolutely not.

Nobody who knows anything about defense ever considered DeAndre Jordan a DPOY level player lol. Jordan is Howard (before his back) if he didn't know what the hell he was doing out there. He's got great physical gifts...but his basketball IQ just isn't there. Dwight Howard actually has a great basketball IQ when it comes to defense...which goes underappreciated. Either way, maybe Dream wasn't a great post defender at this time...but his overall impact as an anchor and rim protector made him the best defensive player in the league from pretty much this 88 season to 91.

[iznogood]

Nobody who knows anything about defense ever considered DeAndre Jordan a DPOY level player lol. Jordan is Howard (before his back) if he didn't know what the hell he was doing out there. He's got great physical gifts...but his basketball IQ just isn't there. Dwight Howard actually has a great basketball IQ when it comes to defense...which goes underappreciated. Either way, maybe Dream wasn't a great post defender at this time...but his overall impact as an anchor and rim protector made him the best defensive player in the league from pretty much this 88 season to 91.
I'm glad that we agree on Jordan's value as a defender, but you ask a lot of people here, even LAZERUSS, they're going to tell you he was a DPOY level player.
But that was not the point I was trying to get across.
I wasn't even trying to argue he was or wasn't the best defensive player in the league, merely the fact that i think he was a much better defender later in his career and that he at the time was not a great matchup against KAJ due to his weaknesses in his game, which was greatly improved by the time he met Shaq in the finals.