Jay Z: The War On Drugs Is An Epic Fail

[Sarcastic]

http://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000004642370/jay-z-the-war-on-drugs-is-an-epic-fail.html

[Real Men Wear Green]

True, and has been true for years.

[UK2K]

True, and has been true for years.

Big government has become so dependent on it though, it'll never end.

That's why I vote for smaller government every chance I get. Because big government hasn't created or been able to un-**** anything in it's existence. Everything it touches turns to shit, and this is no different.

Now, too many jobs depend on it. Too much tax revenue is dependent on it. Too many promises and deals have been made for it to ever end.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Big government has become so dependent on it though, it'll never end.

That's why I vote for smaller government every chance I get. Because big government hasn't created or been able to un-**** anything in it's existence. Everything it touches turns to shit, and this is no different.

Now, too many jobs depend on it. Too much tax revenue is dependent on it. Too many promises and deals have been made for it to ever end.So you are voting for Johnson or Stein?

[Nick Young]

So you are voting for Johnson or Stein?
The desperate one appears.

Prepare to live in one nation under Trump my friend.

[UK2K]

So you are voting for Johnson or Stein?

I'm likely not voting at all...

But if I did vote, I'd vote for Johnson out of spite. He seems like someone cool to hang out with (aka he surely smokes weed). I actually agree with the majority of his policies but...

Trump will carry IN anyway so it won't really matter.

[~primetime~]

The "war on drugs" isn't supposed to end or be "won". That's a silly misconception that many people have.

There will always be drug users and dealers...

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take them on or combat them.



Has the war on drugs punished dealers???...if so its not a complete fail

[Real Men Wear Green]

I'm likely not voting at all...

But if I did vote, I'd vote for Johnson out of spite. He seems like someone cool to hang out with (aka he surely smokes weed). I actually agree with the majority of his policies but...

Trump will carry IN anyway so it won't really matter.
I'm planning on voting for Johnson myself. Strange that we'd almost have that in common ("almost" because you said you probably won't vote).

[UK2K]

I'm planning on voting for Johnson myself. Strange that we'd almost have that in common ("almost" because you said you probably won't vote).
Like I said, Trump will crush in Indiana so my vote is pointless.

I agree with pretty much everything Johnson says though:

[QUOTE]Energy[edit]
Johnson favors building new coal-fired and nuclear power plants. He supports private sector research and development of renewable energy, but does not believe doing so is the government's job.[8]

Federal Reserve[edit]
Johnson has said the Federal Reserve "needs to be reviewed and managed effectively"[18] by congressionally auditing it,[11] and that its actions "should be transparent". He has stated that Congress should "take a close look at how the Federal Reserve Bank is operated and regulated. If changes need to be made within the Federal Reserve Bank, they should be made."

Health care[edit]
Johnson believes that the "costs of health care are out of control and something needs to be done to return health care to fiscal solvency." He does "not believe that government should be taking over the health care system." Instead, he believes that a "market-based approach should be the foundation of any solution. A health care insurance system that is privately owned and managed is the best approach to solving our health care problems." He favors tort reform and control of frivolous lawsuits as means cutting costs of health care.[22]

Labor unions[edit]
Johnson says his only issue with trade unions, including teachers' unions, is that they require both good and bad workers to be treated the same. He believes businesses should be allowed to reward good workers and fire bad workers, without collective intervention. He views public-sector unions that contribute to political campaigns as "dangerous."[8]

Afghanistan[edit]
Johnson initially supported the war in Afghanistan as a response to the September 11 attacks, reasoning "We were attacked, and we attacked back." However, he opposes continued military involvement in Afghanistan, stating that "after being in Afghanistan for six months I think we effectively wiped out al Qaeda."[32] He also believes the United States "should not be borrowing money to build roads, bridges, schools and other infrastructure in foreign countries, especially when such help is currently needed at home. Non-military foreign aid around the world is something we cannot currently afford."[24] On April 9, 2012, Johnson told The Daily Caller that while he would withdraw military forces, he would not rule out putting U.S. military bases in Afghanistan.[26]

Civil liberties[edit]
Johnson believes the "government should protect the value of individuals and their civil liberties" and "should not intervene in the private lives of individual citizens unnecessarily. Personal liberty and freedom from unwarranted governmental control or regulation should allow law-abiding individuals to pursue their own desires as long as they are not causing harm to other people."[41] He believes the role of government is to "protect us from individuals who might or do us harm," but "should be out of our lives for the most part." He believes "our civil liberties are being eroded" and that Americans are "giving up [their] civil rights in the name of fear."[41]

Gun rights[edit]
Johnson does not believe in limiting the types or sizes of guns that private citizens can own. He believes the Second Amendment is "clear," and establishes an individual right for citizens.[8]

States' rights[edit]
Johnson says, "After great deliberation, the Founders clearly based the blueprint for our government on the fundamental idea that there must be strict constraints on Federal power

[Real Men Wear Green]

The "war on drugs" isn't supposed to end or be "won". That's a silly misconception that many people have.

There will always be drug users and dealers...

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take them on or combat them.



Has the war on drugs punished dealers???...if so its not a complete fail
I challenge the notion that punishing a drug dealer is a worthwhile goal. It is not. If a drug dealer is a murderer, thief, etc. I fully support punishing that. But otherwise we have created this enormous class of criminals (users as well as dealers) and are spending enormous resources to combat a victimless crime.

[~primetime~]

Jay's video just states there is racial bias in the war, and focuses on pot.

His points are probably valid but that doesn't mean no good has ever come from it.

Pot laws will eventually be eased off completely...that issue is coming around.

[~primetime~]

I challenge the notion that punishing a drug dealer is a worthwhile goal. It is not. If a drug dealer is a murderer, thief, etc. I fully support punishing that. But otherwise we have created this enormous class of criminals (users as well as dealers) and are spending enormous resources to combat a victimless crime.
If you're flooding the streets with heroin then IMO you deserve fcking death.

I love that drug dealers are forced to live out violent lives that usually result in death or prison. It needs to stay that way.

Pot is another story...

[Real Men Wear Green]

Jay's video just states there is racial bias in the war, and focuses on pot.

His points are probably valid but that doesn't mean no good has ever come from it.

Pot laws will eventually be eased off completely...that issue is coming around.
The war on drugs does far more harm than good. It takes anywhere from 30 to 50 thousand dollars to lock up an inmate for a year depending on the state. 46% of federal inmates (https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp) are there for drug offenses. And we are locking these people up for what? Because they get high or get others high? Why is this any of our business? How does this help me?

[UK2K]

I challenge the notion that punishing a drug dealer is a worthwhile goal. It is not. If a drug dealer is a murderer, thief, etc. I fully support punishing that. But otherwise we have created this enormous class of criminals (users as well as dealers) and are spending enormous resources to combat a victimless crime.

The drug DEALERS need to be punished.

The drug USERS need to be punished, and given rehab. The users aren't (generally) killing people. Or destroying lives.

[UK2K]

The war on drugs does far more harm than good. It takes anywhere from 30 to 50 thousand dollars to lock up an inmate for a year depending on the state. 46% of federal inmates (https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp) are there for drug offenses. And we are locking these people up for what? Because they get high or get others high? Why is this any of our business? How does this help me?

Doesn't have to though. That's liberal soft hearted polices that cause that.

Bet you I could do it for 1/3 of that.

[QUOTE]Maricopa County, Arizona, Sheriff Joe Arpaio has planned a particularly economical meal for the roughly 7,500 to 10,000 inmates in his jail system this Thanksgiving.

[B]The meal comes in at a cost of just 56 cents per inmate, and its main entr

[Real Men Wear Green]

If you're flooding the streets with heroin then IMO you deserve fcking death.

I love that drug dealers are forced to live out violent lives that usually result in death or prison. It needs to stay that way.

Pot is another story...
I have no love for heroin dealers myself but locking them up doesn't appear to solve the problem at all. Abuse has been steadily increasing.

[~primetime~]

The war on drugs does far more harm than good. It takes anywhere from 30 to 50 thousand dollars to lock up an inmate for a year depending on the state. 46% of federal inmates (https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp) are there for drug offenses. And we are locking these people up for what? Because they get high or get others high? Why is this any of our business? How does this help me?
Drugs destroy and completely demolish communities...furthermore legalizing everything increases use. States where pot is legal saw their pot smoking double. They also saw the black market for pot double. The black market for pot in Colorado is BOOMING. Because dealers can sell out in the open now and they can sell it TAX FREE, much cheaper than the legal stuff.

We currently have a damn heroin epidemic because heroin basically became legal via prescription drugs. When doctors cracked down and stopped giving out opiate scripts the users went to the streets to get their fix. It's an absolute fact that legalizing things increases use.

[~primetime~]

I have no love for heroin dealers myself but locking them up doesn't appear to solve the problem at all. Abuse has been steadily increasing.
Abuse has been increasing because of LEGAL opiates obtained through prescriptions.

Now that doctors have cracked down on that, users went to the black market for heroin which is the same damn thing as prescription opiates.

[~primetime~]

In order to fix Jay's issues with the war...seems like we just need to legalize pot and do something about racial bias when making arrests.

Blacks can probably point to EVERY crime and declare there is racial bias though...

[Real Men Wear Green]

Drugs destroy and completely demolish communities...furthermore legalizing everything increases use. States where pot is legal saw their pot smoking double. They also saw the black market for pot double. The black market for pot in Colorado is BOOMING. Because dealers can sell out in the open now and they can sell it TAX FREE, much cheaper than the legal stuff.And how has Colorado been hurt by all of these legal pot smokers?


We currently have a damn heroin epidemic because heroin basically became legal via prescription drugs. When doctors cracked down and stopped giving out opiate scripts the users went to the streets to get their fix. It's an absolute fact that legalizing things increases use.When did heroin become "legal via prescription drugs?" Honest question I want to hear your answer to before I reply.

[~primetime~]

I don't think Colorado has been hurt by the increase in pot use, (other than more DUIs) I'm just saying I don't want to see that happen with heroin/coke

[Real Men Wear Green]

Abuse has been increasing because of LEGAL opiates obtained through prescriptions.

Now that doctors have cracked down on that, users went to the black market for heroin which is the same damn thing as prescription opiates.
So how has the War on Drugs fixed this problem? Is all of this money being spent curing addiction?

[~primetime~]

When did heroin become "legal via prescription drugs?" Honest question I want to hear your answer to before I reply.
Prescription opiates are legal...you can legally obtain opiates through a doctor, and not long ago it was VERY VERY easy to do so.

That is why there is currently a heroin epidemic, because all those addicts that were getting their fix from their doctor got shut down and they were forced to take to the streets.

Prescription drugs kill far more people than blackmarket drugs (because they are legal)

[~primetime~]

So how has the War on Drugs fixed this problem? Is all of this money being spent curing addiction?
Arresting dealers puts less drugs on the streets...drugs being illegal makes them harder for people to obtain. It results in less drug use.

[UK2K]

And how has Colorado been hurt by all of these legal pot smokers?

When did heroin become "legal via prescription drugs?" Honest question I want to hear your answer to before I reply.
Prescription pills used to be easily attainable in KY.

When they clamped down on them, people had to go somewhere else to chase their high.

Go look at all the overdoses In Cincinnati... all heroin ODs. Given the pattern, my guess is these were people who used to get easily attainable prescription narcotics but then had to go for heroin once that got put on lock down.

I said this exact thing would happen in a thread on this forum forever ago. Users will always use unless there's nothing to use (there always will be) or they go to rehab.

[Nanners]

http://theweek.com/articles/541564/how-american-opiate-epidemic-started-by-pharmaceutical-company

great article on how purdue pharmaceuticals influenced the heroin epidemic. heres a few key excerpts -


Starting in 1996, Purdue Pharma expanded its sales department to coincide with the debut of its new drug. According to an article published in The American Journal of Public Health, “The Promotion and Marketing of OxyContin: Commercial Triumph, Public Health Tragedy," Purdue increased its number of sales representatives from 318 in 1996 to 671 in 2000. By 2001, when OxyContin was hitting its stride, these sales reps received annual bonuses averaging over $70,000, with some bonuses nearing a quarter of a million dollars. In that year Purdue Pharma spent $200 million marketing its golden goose. Pouring money into marketing is not uncommon for Big Pharma, but proportionate to the size of the company, Purdue’s OxyContin push was substantial.

According to "The Promotion and Marketing of OxyContin," from 1997 to 2002 prescriptions of OxyContin for non-cancer pain increased almost tenfold. Meanwhile, in 1996 the FDA approved an 80mg version of the pill; four years later it approved a 160mg tablet. According to the FDA’s “History of OxyContin: Labeling and Risk Management Program,” higher dosages were approved specifically for opioid-tolerant patients.


Perhaps knowing that doctors would be vigilant against prescribing drugs with the potential for abuse, Purdue set out to distinguish OxyContin from rivals as soon as it dropped. The cornerstone of its marketing campaign was the drug's incredibly low risk of addiction, an enviable characteristic made possible by its patented time-release formula. Through an array of promotional materials, including literature, brochures, videotapes, and Web content, Purdue proudly asserted that the potential for addiction was very small, at one point stating it to be "less than 1 percent."

The time-release conceit even worked on the FDA, which stated that "Delayed absorption, as provided by OxyContin tablets is believed to reduce the abuse liability of a drug." Armed with the time-release formula and misleading statistics about the risk of addiction, Purdue positioned the drug as a relatively safe choice for CNCP patients. Sales representatives told some doctors that the drug didn't even produce a buzz, according to USA Today. (This for a pill that has since drawn frequent comparisons to heroin in terms of analgesia, euphoria, and the propensity for addiction.)

Between physician databases, incentive-happy sales reps, and an aggressive blitz package of promotional ephemera, Purdue's multifaceted marketing campaign pushed OxyContin out of the niche offices of oncologists and pain specialists and into the primary care bazaar, where prescriptions for the drug could be handed out to millions upon millions of Americans. The most scathing irony is that what allowed OxyContin to reach so many households and communities was the claim that it wasn't dangerous.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Prescription opiates are legal...you can legally obtain opiates through a doctor, and not long ago it was VERY VERY easy to do so.

That is why there is currently a heroin epidemic, because all those addicts that were getting their fix from their doctor got shut down and they were forced to take to the streets.

Prescription drugs kill far more people than blackmarket drugs (because they are legal)So once again we have the war failing. Making heroin illegal didn't and won't stop the current epidemic. Instead it just has us locking up more addicts.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Arresting dealers puts less drugs on the streets...drugs being illegal makes them harder for people to obtain. It results in less drug use.
Supply and demand. So long as there are addicts, and there will always bigger addicts, there will be new dealers to replace whoever is locked away.

[~primetime~]

Some people are just under the illusion that laws don't actually effect things...smh

I can remember dozens of nights me and my buddies tried to score some ecstasy but couldn't...so we didn't roll balls those nights.

Had MDMA been legal, I imagine my ecstasy usage would have at least doubled, maybe tripled.



better yet...

would you be surprised that there are more drunk arrests/DUIs in wet counties vs dry counties?...why do you think that is?

believe it or not, laws effect things...



Make heroin and coke legal you know what happens?....drug dealers become rich white men in suits feeding off broken families and death. Living out long rich lives without fear of being prosecuted. The opposite of what drug dealers are now. Similar to big tobacco owners who feast off cancer, maybe worse. And the black market??? still thriving hard, selling TAX FREE drugs to those looking for a discount, just like the black market for pot in Colorado. Drug use and addiction increases, the country becomes more of a shit hole, the world is a worse place to live in.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Some people are just under the illusion that laws don't actually effect things...smh
It's not that the War has had no effect. It's that the effect it's had is nowhere near enough of a positive to justify it's cost.

[~primetime~]

It's not that the War has had no effect. It's that the effect it's had is nowhere near enough of a positive to justify it's cost.
How would you know? We have no way of gauging it's effect or what this country would look like without it. For all you know the US could look like the Philippines which has become a complete wasteland due to heroin.

Is the war on drugs flawed? sure it is...Jay pointed out some big flaws in the OP, but those flaws can be fixed, mostly by just legalizing pot.

[Real Men Wear Green]

How would you know? We have no way of gauging it's effect or what this country would look like without it. For all you know the US could look like the Philippines which has become a complete wasteland due to heroin.
What are we spending on the war annually, billions? I want a better return on investment than being "protected" from having more addicts. There are a lot of us that would never mess with something like heroin whether it was legal or not and as we've seen there are plenty of people that abuse these substances in spite of their legal status.

[~primetime~]

What are we spending on the war annually, billions? I want a better return on investment than being "protected" from having more addicts. There are a lot of us that would never mess with something like heroin whether it was legal or not and as we've seen there are plenty of people that abuse these substances in spite of their legal status.
Heroin use effects plenty of people that don't use heroin, clearly you've never had a friend or loved one on it.

Our drug policies could use plenty of adjustments, maybe the return is low, but getting rid of them all together is a horrible idea.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Heroin use effects plenty of people that don't use heroin, clearly you've never had a friend or loved one on it.It's not heroin but I lost a brother to crack (and he may have tried heroin for all I know). Please don't act like my stance is just the result of not going through a certain experience as that would be wrong.


Our drug policies could use plenty of adjustments, maybe the return is low, but getting rid of them all together is a horrible idea.The question of how frequently an addict is rehabilitated by prison and what could possibly work better seriously needs to be addressed.

[D-Wade316]

How would you know? We have no way of gauging it's effect or what this country would look like without it. For all you know the US could look like the Philippines which has become a complete wasteland due to heroin.

Is the war on drugs flawed? sure it is...Jay pointed out some big flaws in the OP, but those flaws can be fixed, mostly by just legalizing pot.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

This shit is so much far from the truth. :facepalm

[D-Wade316]

The supply-side strategy is such a colossal horse shit. More than 4 decades of this policy has not lead to any substantial decrease in drug use. Just go ask the South Americans and Thailand. :)

[nightlight]

Drugs destroy and completely demolish communities...furthermore legalizing everything increases use. States where pot is legal saw their pot smoking double. They also saw the black market for pot double. The black market for pot in Colorado is BOOMING. Because dealers can sell out in the open now and they can sell it TAX FREE, much cheaper than the legal stuff.



Respectfully, you have not the slightest clue what you're talking about. Pot sales have shifted away from dispensaries because the growers were getting shafted. The grower assumes all the financial risk by laying out thousands of dollars worth of product without seeing anything up front. Dispensaries need to change how they conduct business on the supply side. Some operate above board offering fair deals to the growers, but they're in the minority.

Another thing you're wrong about is pricing. It doesn't matter if you buy it directly from a grower or at the dispensary. The market price for any quantity less than an Oz. is standard. People who were buying an ounce and more at a time were never buying from the dispensary in the first place.

[~primetime~]

https://www.whaxy.com/news/black-market-cannabis-colorado

All articles on this subject basically say the same thing, the only people buying pot legally in Colorado are tourists and middle class whites. Black market is thriving stronger than ever in black and Latino communities and dealers have no fear of arrest so they are doing illegal business out in the open.

The legal pot is generally marked up 30% to taxes...easily beatable on the black market.

Also pot smoking in general rose dramatically when legalized and it's more than just tourists.

This same situation would happen with coke/heroin

[ISHGoat]

https://www.whaxy.com/news/black-market-cannabis-colorado

All articles on this subject basically say the same thing, the only people buying pot legally in Colorado are tourists and middle class whites. Black market is thriving stronger than ever in black and Latino communities and dealers have no fear of arrest so they are doing illegal business out in the open.

The legal pot is generally marked up 30% to taxes...easily beatable on the black market.

Also pot smoking in general rose dramatically when legalized and it's more than just tourists.

This same situation would happen with coke/heroin

What the ****? Since when did anyone want to legalize coke/heroin?

And legalized pot is stupid as hell too. I smoke it daily, but this shit should not be legal and widely accepted in our society.

[Hawker]

Heroin use effects plenty of people that don't use heroin, clearly you've never had a friend or loved one on it.

Our drug policies could use plenty of adjustments, maybe the return is low, but getting rid of them all together is a horrible idea.

*affects

[Sarcastic]

https://www.whaxy.com/news/black-market-cannabis-colorado

All articles on this subject basically say the same thing, the only people buying pot legally in Colorado are tourists and middle class whites. Black market is thriving stronger than ever in black and Latino communities and dealers have no fear of arrest so they are doing illegal business out in the open.

The legal pot is generally marked up 30% to taxes...easily beatable on the black market.

Also pot smoking in general rose dramatically when legalized and it's more than just tourists.

This same situation would happen with coke/heroin

I disagree. People know the perverse effects of coke and heroin, and making it legal wouldn't sway most people to randomly try it. No one is gonna sit there one night and say "hey since heroin is legal now, let me go get some". The people who would seek it out are the people who were previously on drugs like oxycotin, and those people are getting it whether it's legal or illegal anyway.

[kurple]

I don't think Colorado has been hurt by the increase in pot use, (other than more DUIs) I'm just saying I don't want to see that happen with heroin/coke
How many of your friends has had the sudden urge to do heroin?


Legalizing heroin (like Norway is thinking about) wouldnt get mot heroin addicts, just make it easier to controll their intake and make sure they use clean needles

There usually aint no coming back from an Heroin addiction, and just throwig them in a jailcell is inhuman

[kurple]

https://www.whaxy.com/news/black-market-cannabis-colorado

All articles on this subject basically say the same thing, the only people buying pot legally in Colorado are tourists and middle class whites. Black market is thriving stronger than ever in black and Latino communities and dealers have no fear of arrest so they are doing illegal business out in the open.

The legal pot is generally marked up 30% to taxes...easily beatable on the black market.

Also pot smoking in general rose dramatically when legalized and it's more than just tourists.

This same situation would happen with coke/heroin

stop comparing coke to heroin.

Look at Portugal and Uruguay if you want to se how decriminalizing works

[kurple]

Heroin use effects plenty of people that don't use heroin, clearly you've never had a friend or loved one on it.

In what way? Economically? How is that different to let's say gambling

And obesity can be just as deadly as the chances of an OD

[poido123]

Americans, if America implemented the Phillipines crackdown on drugs, would that be possible? Or are the gangs too big and strong?


Let's say an army force together with police went through and shot the dealers and the users.


Would be effective? why, why not?

[poido123]

Americans, if America implemented the Phillipines crackdown on drugs, would that be possible? Or are the gangs too big and strong?


Let's say an army force together with police went through and shot the dealers and the users unless they turned themselves in.


Would be effective? why, why not?

[kurple]

Americans, if America implemented the Phillipines crackdown on drugs, would that be possible? Or are the gangs too big and strong?


Let's say an army force together with police went through and shot the dealers and the users.


Would be effective? why, why not?
Because most humans are opportunists with some degree of ambitions. Even the ones who has never gone to school or had a real job

Take one down and two new come right up


Only way to stop drug dealing in America would be to end poverty and reform the educational system. Or just kill every human

[Overdrive]

Drugs destroy and completely demolish communities...furthermore legalizing everything increases use. States where pot is legal saw their pot smoking double. They also saw the black market for pot double. The black market for pot in Colorado is BOOMING. Because dealers can sell out in the open now and they can sell it TAX FREE, much cheaper than the legal stuff.


It doesn't increase the users. It just changes the way statistics are taken. Instead of the WHO extrapolating survey they have actual sales statistics. Less people will tell you on a survey that they partake in illegal activities, especially in countries, where you can easily get jailed for such deeds.

Once you legalize any drug you get the numbers of drugs dealt over the counter.

Which is the next point: If you want to get rid of dealers who are within or on the edge of organized crime, let the state or heavily state controlled shops deal the drugs. Make the use legal, but sell the drugs a tad above streetprice. Like 5 or 10% increase. It will gain the state money, lower organized crime and take leverage from drug lords.

Portugal did a total legalization, minus the federal sale of drugs. Here's what happened:

https://mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-portugal-decriminalized-all-drugs-here-s-what-s-happening


Americans, if America implemented the Phillipines crackdown on drugs, would that be possible? Or are the gangs too big and strong?


Let's say an army force together with police went through and shot the dealers and the users unless they turned themselves in.


Would be effective? why, why not?

No and it won't be in the Philippines either. There's always a #2, #3, #4 waiting for the #1, #2, #3 to get killed, jailed or whatever to rise to the top.

[Nanners]

medical marijuana laws decrease opiod use - http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/09/16/confirming-big-pharma-fears-study-suggests-medical-marijuana-laws-decrease-opioid

[~primetime~]

It doesn't increase the users. It just changes the way statistics are taken. Instead of the WHO extrapolating survey they have actual sales statistics. Less people will tell you on a survey that they partake in illegal activities, especially in countries, where you can easily get jailed for such deeds.

Once you legalize any drug you get the numbers of drugs dealt over the counter.

Which is the next point: If you want to get rid of dealers who are within or on the edge of organized crime, let the state or heavily state controlled shops deal the drugs. Make the use legal, but sell the drugs a tad above streetprice. Like 5 or 10% increase. It will gain the state money, lower organized crime and take leverage from drug lords.

Portugal did a total legalization, minus the federal sale of drugs. Here's what happened:

https://mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-portugal-decriminalized-all-drugs-here-s-what-s-happening

Portugal just decriminalized...gave users a legal place to use...they didn't open heroin shops. They were also in heroin hell and really had no where to go but up.

If you want to see what would happen if you legalized heroin in the US, you're looking at it right now. Doctors were basically legal dispensaries for opiates. If someone wanted to score some opiates legally, they just asked their doctor for some. The result? We are in a heroin crisis. 21 just ODed in Ohio recently.

And legalizing pot did NOTHING to the black market in those states, in fact it boosted the black market, google it, read up. The only people that buy legal pot are tourists and middle class whites. The black market is still booming in black and latino communitees because the black market sells it tax free.

[~primetime~]

medical marijuana laws decrease opiod use - http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/09/16/confirming-big-pharma-fears-study-suggests-medical-marijuana-laws-decrease-opioid
that's cool

pot needs to be legal in all states...and it eventually will be

[highwhey]

that's cool

pot needs to be legal in all states...and it eventually will be
it's an uphill battle though. in arizona, there is a bill to legalize recreational even though medical MJ is legal. A local pharmaceutical company that makes opiates donated $500,000 to fight the bill. :facepalm

[poido123]

that's cool

pot needs to be legal in all states...and it eventually will be


But how does it benefit society?

I'm not one way or another on dope, but I know that it comes with some health effects that will put further strain on the mental health departments and turn a lot of people into vegetables.

While pot for many of us is just a harmless recreational drug, for some it is a gateway drug that leads many people to harder stuff.

[step_back]

People like Jay-z really need to shut the **** up. He made a fortune glorifying drugs and pushing a gangster lifestyle with his music. The truth is this has been the most devastating influence on the African American community who suffers the most from drugs. Legalizing drugs will just soften the legal ramifications, it won't do anything to reverse the damaging affects it has on society and families.

[west_tip]

Legalizing drugs will just soften the legal ramifications, it won't do anything to reverse the damaging affects it has on society and families.
I favor legalization of cannabis but I that's a point that I think is legitimate and is oft overlooked by those who call for blanket legalization of all recreational drugs. Just because you decriminalize something and take away the negative legal ramifications doesn't mean that the drug itself becomes any less destructive. Exhibit a: alcohol.

[Schotsman]

I favor legalization of cannabis but I that's a point that I think is legitimate and is oft overlooked by those who call for blanket legalization of all recreational drugs. Just because you decriminalize something and take away the negative legal ramifications doesn't mean that the drug itself becomes any less destructive. Exhibit a: alcohol.

Very true. There is one point I would like to add to this. I would guess that, mentally, it would be easier for addicts to seek help when the use of a certain drug is legal. It's not a bad thing per se that drug use is frowned upon, illegal (in most cases), and sort of a taboo, but this also means that some addicts are too ashamed and/or scared to seek decent professional help. I'm not arguing that drug use should be legal, or that the above point is a valid argument for legalizing drugs, but I would say that legalizing drugs would make it mentally easier for addicts to admit to the use of drugs and seek help.

[west_tip]

Very true. There is one point I would like to add to this. I would guess that, mentally, it would be easier for addicts to seek help when the use of a certain drug is legal. It's not a bad thing per se that drug use is frowned upon, illegal (in most cases), and sort of a taboo, but this also means that some addicts are too ashamed and/or scared to seek decent professional help. I'm not arguing that drug use should be legal, or that the above point is a valid argument for legalizing drugs, but I would say that legalizing drugs would make it mentally easier for addicts to admit to the use of drugs and seek help.

I agree with you in principle here. We should not demonize drug addicts and treat them like criminals (save of course if they are actually committing crimes separate from possessing and using illegal drugs). I would rather the approach toward drug use was one of prevention and intervention not incarceration.

Speaking of this I got my CA general election guide in the mail today and here I am reading up on the marijuana proposition (64). I will be voting in favor of legalization. :cheers:

[poido123]

I agree with you in principle here. We should not demonize drug addicts and treat them like criminals (save of course if they are actually committing crimes separate from possessing and using illegal drugs). I would rather the approach toward drug use was one of prevention and intervention not incarceration.

Speaking of this I got my CA general election guide in the mail today and here I am reading up on the marijuana proposition (64). I will be voting in favor of legalization. :cheers:



I agree that we should treat drug users as a 'health problem'.


However, I do draw a distinction between them and a drug peddler. Drug Peddlers are wilfully ruining lives.


I'm not for legalising drugs UNLESS the sole purpose is to minimise profit to the dealers AND to cripple the drug trade.


By legalising it and regulating the use of the drugs, putting drug users on compulsory health clinics I feel could make an impact.

The main reason these pedllers make the money they do is because the drugs are lucrative and harder to get.

[west_tip]

I agree that we should treat drug users as a 'health problem'.


However, I do draw a distinction between them and a drug peddler. Drug Peddlers are wilfully ruining lives.


I'm not for legalising drugs UNLESS the sole purpose is to minimise profit to the dealers AND to cripple the drug trade.


By legalising it and regulating the use of the drugs, putting drug users on compulsory health clinics I feel could make an impact.

The main reason these pedllers make the money they do is because the drugs are lucrative and harder to get.

Agree with all of this. There is a clear distinction in my eyes between drug users on the one hand and the people who manufacture, distribute and sell them.

[Nanners]

All articles on this subject basically say the same thing, the only people buying pot legally in Colorado are tourists and middle class whites. Black market is thriving stronger than ever in black and Latino communities and dealers have no fear of arrest so they are doing illegal business out in the open.


I dunno about Colorado prices, but right now you can buy an ounce of good recreational weed at one of the dispensaries near my house for $100 (https://newvansterdam.com/menu/). Back before weed was legal here, most people around here were probably paying somewhere around ~$200 an ounce and that was still among the cheapest in the country. Also a lot of this new "black market" weed (like the stuff in the article you linked) is now coming from small scale growers selling relatively small quantities in their local black market, its not really fair to group them in with the big time drug runners and cartels who move mass quantities for huge money.

I dont really see how the black market can be considered to be "stronger than ever" if middle class whites (a HUGE demographic) are no longer buying it, competition from small scale dealers is way up, and profit margins are less than half of what they used to be.

[~primetime~]

I dunno about Colorado prices, but right now you can buy an ounce of good recreational weed at one of the dispensaries near my house for $100 (https://newvansterdam.com/menu/). Back before weed was legal here, most people around here were probably paying somewhere around ~$200 an ounce and that was still among the cheapest in the country. Also a lot of this new "black market" weed (like the stuff in the article you linked) is now coming from small scale growers selling relatively small quantities in their local black market, not really fair to group them in with the big time drug runners and cartels who move mass quantities for huge money.

I dont really see how the black market can be considered to be "stronger than ever" if middle class whites (a HUGE demographic) are no longer buying it, competition from small scale dealers is way up, and profit margins are less than half of what they used to be.
According to everything I've read the black market has grown because there is no longer a fear of arrest, dealers are selling out in the open, and beating legal prices.

Would link you to articles if I want on my phone.

https://www.google.com/search?q=black+market+growing+in+colorado&oq=black+market+growing+in+colorado&aqs=chrome..69i57j33l3.12747j0j4&client=tablet-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[~primetime~]

Also Nanners, pot smoking went up dramatically in Colorado when legalized.

We know this because the number of auto fatalities where the driver had pot their system doubled the year States made it legal.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may/10/marijuana-related-fatal-car-accidents-surge-washin/



Authorities in Washington recorded 436 fatal crashes in 2013, and determined that drivers involved in 40 crashes tested positive for THC, the active chemical in marijuana, according to the study. In 2014 they found that of 462 fatal crashes, 85 drivers tested positive for THC.

[~primetime~]

Another Colorado study

"It confirms that when you have a state like Colorado that goes gradually from legalizing medical marijuana all the way up to recreational use - even though it's restricted to adults, kids get their hands on it to the point where now Colorado is 55 percent over the national average in terms of youth using marijuana," she says.

Cretella says the state is seeing an increased number of auto fatalities and accidents related to marijuana use, as well as reports of more students showing up at school stoned.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/culture/2015/09/29/colorado-youth-marijuana-use-highest-since-legalization

[kurple]

According to everything I've read the black market has grown because there is no longer a fear of arrest, dealers are selling out in the open, and beating legal prices.

Would link you to articles if I want on my phone.

https://www.google.com/search?q=black+market+growing+in+colorado&oq=black+market+growing+in+colorado&aqs=chrome..69i57j33l3.12747j0j4&client=tablet-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
I may be wrong, but isn't illegal drugdealing still illegal?

[Nanners]

According to everything I've read the black market has grown because there is no longer a fear of arrest, dealers are selling out in the open, and beating legal prices.

Would link you to articles if I want on my phone.

https://www.google.com/search?q=black+market+growing+in+colorado&oq=black+market+growing+in+colorado&aqs=chrome..69i57j33l3.12747j0j4&client=tablet-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

did you read my post?

perhaps the black market has grown in overall volume, it makes sense that legal weed would lead to more people smoking. my point is that the small scale black market sellers who have flooded the market are not comparable to large scale black market sellers, and that the profit margins within the black market have declined massively.

it costs $100 for a dispensary ounce around here, a few years ago that same ounce cost $200 on the black market.

regarding your articles, you can find pretty much any "article" confirming/denying everything when it comes to marijuana. its hard to know whats really going on.

Legal weed having little effect on teen use (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/18/legal-weed-having-little-effect-on-teen-marijuana-use-federal-data-shows/)

Legalization of marijuana in Washington had no effect on teens' access to drug (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160430100249.htm)

Since marijuana legalization, highway fatalities in Colorado are at near-historic lows (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/08/05/since-marijuana-legalization-highway-fatalities-in-colorado-are-at-near-historic-lows/?utm_term=.cc963f3e1a8f)

Why Medical Marijuana Laws Reduce Traffic Deaths (http://healthland.time.com/2011/12/02/why-medical-marijuana-laws-reduce-traffic-deaths/)