Who would you rather build a team around: Jason Kidd or Isiah Thomas?

[Smoke117]

Discuss. I'll give my thoughts later...headed down to the collective right now for that buddha.

[bizil]

Damn this is a good question! Isiah was the better offensive player while Kidd was a walking triple double and the better all around player. If I had a team full of scorers and needed a PG to put us over the top I would take Kidd. If I had a team that needed a #1 scoring threat AND great floor general in one I would take Isiah.

Scoring wise, Isiah was capable of turning into AI at the drop of a hat. BUT at heart, Isiah was a pass first PG. So for me it comes down to Isiah's combo of great scoring and great passing vs. Kidd's versatility and all around brilliance. I really think it comes down to a matter of taste or what a team needed.

[sunnyboy91]

I dont think you win a championship with IT as your first scoring option, and I think Kidd brings more intangibles and a better all round skill set to help the team compete for a championship better than IT as a 2nd or 3rd scoring option.

[bizil]

I dont think you win a championship with IT as your first scoring option, and I think Kidd brings more intangibles and a better all round skill set to help the team compete for a championship better than IT as a 2nd or 3rd scoring option.

Isiah won TWO RINGS as Detroit's first scoring option!!! LOL

[Smoke117]

Isiah won TWO RINGS as Detroit's first scoring pption!!! LOL

Those Piston championship teams were like the 2000 Blazers though...everyone got in on it.

[bizil]

Those Piston championship teams were like the 2000 Blazers though...everyone got in on it.

But Isiah was still THE MAN on that team!! He lead the team in scoring average in the regular season AND the playoffs! And before that Pistons team got READY to win a ring, Isiah was ALWAYS averaging over 20 points a night. Isiah was a legit alpha dog! EVERYBODY KNOWS Isiah was the go to guy on the Pistons! BOTTOM LINE!! But Isiah was ALSO a pass first PG who made everybody better at the same time!

And that Pistons team didn't have the scoring depth of the 2000 Blazers. But at the same time, the Blazers DIDN'T have an alpha dog scorer on that team. BUT they had squad full of VERY GOOD scorers! Two totally different teams in terms of makeup.

[Jasper]

never liked Zeke , he was a punk.

I'll take Kidd , even though he had family issues in his playing days... novice ?

KIdd, rebounded, besides his teammates first and he was 2nd -3rd option in any play.
True PG .... He was in 2 championship series ... build is a strong word, PG's typically never get a team to the title.

[Smoke117]

The 89 playoffs was actually quite balanced:

18.2ppg, 17.6ppg, 14.1ppg, 12.6, 10.1...it doesn't really get any more balanced than that. Joe Dumars averaged 27.1ppg to his 21.3 in their sweep of the lakers in the finals.

[bizil]

never liked Zeke , he was a punk.

I'll take Kidd , even though he had family issues in his playing days... novice ?

KIdd, rebounded, besides his teammates first and he was 2nd -3rd option in any play.
True PG .... He was in 2 championship series ... build is a strong word, PG's typically never get a team to the title.

Now in terms of Zeke's attitude, I wasn't a big fan of that at all! And I see why some would take Kidd over Zeke for sure. BUT Isiah won two rings for the Pistons as THE MAN. So we can't take that away from him either.

[bizil]

The 89 playoffs was actually quite balanced:

18.2ppg, 17.6ppg, 14.1ppg, 12.6, 10.1...it doesn't really get any more balanced than that. Joe Dumars averaged 27.1ppg to his 21.3 in their sweep of the lakers in the finals.

They were balanced BUT Isiah was the still the man on those teams! That's all I'm saying! Isiah was known as a legit alpha dog who can carry a team offensively. Dumars was NEVER on Zeke's level in that regard! Isiah was a pass first PG who could ALSO dominate scoring when needed. ONCE Detroit got a team capable of winning rings, Isiah DIDN'T have to put up 22 points and 13 assists a night anymore. Isiah had ANOTHER GEAR that Dumars didn't have scoring wise.

[Smoke117]

They were balanced BUT Isiah was the still the man on those teams! That's all I'm saying! Isiah was known as a legit alpha dog who can carry a team offensively. Dumars was NEVER on Zeke's level in that regard! Isiah was a pass first PG who could ALSO dominate scoring when needed. ONCE Detroit got a team capable of winning rings, Isiah DIDN'T have to put up 22 points and 13 assists a night anymore. Isiah had ANOTHER GEAR that Dumars didn't have scoring wise.

Eh...Isiah could come up big, yes, but he couldn't carry a team with consistency for a season. Luckily...he didn't have to as the Pistons were incredibly deep.

[bizil]

Eh...Isiah could come up big, yes, but he couldn't carry a team with consistency for a season.

LMAO!! U don't know the game if u think Zeke couldn't carry a team consistently. Zeke's was a pass first PG who could ALSO dominate scoring! So you have to view him through that prism! Zeke's way of carrying a team wouldn't be like MJ or Bird. He would do it his way.

WHY were people calling Zeke the best little man of all time until Iverson came around? IT WAS BECAUSE he could dominate offensively and carry his team. Just because he wasn't like an MJ, Bird, or Magic carrying a team DOESN'T mean Isiah couldn't carry his team consistently. Zeke was one of those rare small 6'1 and under guards who could carry a team HIS WAY!

[Smoke117]

LMAO!! U don't know the game if u think Zeke couldn't carry a team consistently. Zeke's was a pass first PG who could ALSO dominate scoring! So you have to view him through that prism! Zeke's way of carrying a team wouldn't be like MJ or Bird. He would do it his way.

WHY were people calling Zeke the best little man of all time until Iverson came around? IT WAS BECAUSE he could dominate offensively and carry his team. Just because he wasn't like an MJ, Bird, or Magic carrying a team DOESN'T mean Isiah could carry his team consistently. Zeke was one of those rare small 6'1 and under guards who could carry a team HIS WAY!

lol...you're asking that question to somebody who finds both players overrated. I'm just saying...he couldn't carry a team as a scorer consistently. He was a big game performer and good scorer, but his efficiency always left a lot to be desired. The Pistons got great when they became the deepest team in the league...that's just a fact.

[Rake2204]

Eh...Isiah could come up big, yes, but he couldn't carry a team with consistency for a season. Luckily...he didn't have to as the Pistons were incredibly deep.On the contrary, Isiah Thomas carried the Pistons for years. Detroit won 16 and 21 games in the two seasons prior to his arrival. After an 18-game improvement his rookie year, Thomas began pushing teams well beyond what their peak would have been without his presence. We're talking about a guy who averaged 21 points and 14 assists in 1985.

And yeah, as Jack McCloskey began filling in the supporting cast like Thomas deserved (eventually adding Dumars, Rodman, Salley, Dantley), you better believe Isiah's numbers dropped, and it was completely by design. One of the more consistent and oft-repeated themes of the Pistons' championship runs is Thomas' open willingness to share and sacrifice personal glory for the sake of team success. But that doesn't mean he wasn't still carrying the club, or at least serving as its de facto No. 1.

For a full decade, Thomas was the Pistons. For years, he lifted sub-par teams with gaudy numbers. Once the cast improved, he successfully managed one of the best basketball teams in NBA history over a multi-year span.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Those Piston championship teams were like the 2000 Blazers though...everyone got in on it.
Except those loaded 2000 Blazers choked because they didn't have a superstar go to scorer in the grind it out half court against set defenses. Choked away a massive lead against LA.

Sidekicks gonna sidekick. At some point you need the alpha out there.

Isiah however can get to the basket and knock down jumpers. Oh, and my answer is Zeke. Kidd can carry a bad squad better but with competent supporting cast, Zeke can play a role better.

[Smoke117]

Except those loaded 2000 Blazers choked because they didn't have a superstar go to scorer in the grind it out half court against set defenses. Choked away a massive lead against LA.

Sidekicks gonna sidekick. At some point you need the alpha out there.

Isiah however can get to the basket and knock down jumpers. Oh, and my answer is Zeke. Kidd can carry a bad squad better but with competent supporting cast, Zeke can play a role better.

Everyone acts like the Blazers went full retard or something...they were getting good shots...THEY JUST WEREN'T GOING IN. Scottie should have definitely said **** this and just took it on himself though...that's actually his biggest regret as a basketball player...that he didn't.

[bizil]

Except those loaded 2000 Blazers choked because they didn't have a superstar go to scorer in the grind it out half court against set defenses. Choked away a massive lead against LA.

Sidekicks gonna sidekick. At some point you need the alpha out there.

Isiah however can get to the basket and knock down jumpers. Oh, and my answer is Zeke. Kidd can carry a bad squad better but with competent supporting cast, Zeke can play a role better.

Great points! Kidd due to his versatility and triple double ability can fill more holes than Isiah. Peak Kidd could defend PG, SG, and even some SF's. In many respects, if u mixed Stockton and AI together, Isiah would be what u would come up with. Zeke was pass first at heart (like Stock) BUT like AI, he had the ability and mindset to dominate scoring . When he needed OR wanted to!

[SamuraiSWISH]

Everyone acts like the Blazers went full retard or something...they were getting good shots...THEY JUST WEREN'T GOING IN. Scottie should have definitely said **** this and just took it on himself though...that's actually his biggest regret as a basketball player...that he didn't.
He wasn't capable of volume scoring like that ... never was. He didn't have the ball handling, shooting ability, ability to attack off the face up dribble to be a superstar high volume scorer.

So how the hell is that his biggest regret that he didn't do enough to out score Shaq AND Kobe? And where the hell did you hear this?

He would've done it if he was capable. And he never did that in a Bulls uniform, even in his prime from '91 - '96.

That Blazers team lost due to not having a true superstar, or high volume scorer. Lacked alpha caliber leadership. Just a bunch of Indians without a Chief.

[Smoke117]

I don't think you guys are appreciating Kidd's defense enough...he was the best defensive player on the number 1 defense in the league...AS A PG. That's nuts. Scottie Pippen is probably the only better help/team defender on the perimeter all time.

[Smoke117]

He wasn't capable of volume scoring like that ... never was. He didn't have the ball handling, shooting ability, ability to attack off the face up dribble to be a superstar high volume scorer.

So how the hell is that his biggest regret that he didn't do enough to out score Shaq AND Kobe? And where the hell did you hear this?

He would've done it if he was capable. And he never did that in a Bulls uniform, even in his prime from '91 - '96.

That Blazers team lost due to not having a true superstar, or high volume scorer. Lacked alpha caliber leadership. Just a bunch of Indians without a Chief.

He could have definitely made something happen with the ball in his hands, but I'm not going to get into this argument with you. Let's just stick to the thread subject.

[sunnyboy91]

Lmao I was confused by the thread I thought it was the other IT because there was another thread comparing him to Nate Robinson.

Of course the Detroit IT pver Kidd imo.

I just had a blonde moment and made myself look foolish lol.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He could have definitely made something happen with the ball in his hands, but I'm not going to get into this argument with you. Let's just stick to the thread subject.
No because there is no argument to be had.

Because anyone who watched Scottie knows that at his very best, at his absolute peak, with total free reign he was a less than 25 ppg caliber scorer.

22 ppg to be exact. He wasn't a high volume scorer. Didn't have the creativity or the ability. Point blank.

It's why that LOADED 2000 Blazer team choked. Plain and simple.

[Smoke117]

No because there is no argument to be had.

Because anyone who watched Scottie knows that at his very best, at his absolute peak, with total free reign he was a less than 25 ppg caliber scorer.

22 ppg to be exact. He wasn't a high volume scorer. Didn't have the creativity or the ability. Point blank.

It's why that LOADED 2000 Blazer team choked. Plain and simple.

You're starting to kill my stone and ****ing piss me off. You see everything in Jordan shaded glasses...you're not 3ball...but you're not much better when it comes to him. I almost like your post too when were not discussing Jordan or Pippen.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You're starting to kill my stone and ****ing piss me off.
Your stone has a pulse? Bring angry, bitter, and stupid Smoke117 out for all of our entertainment please?

:lol

I'm dying to see you call me a loser, fake coach or a punk or some other obnoxious ISH cliche.

[bizil]

He wasn't capable of volume scoring like that ... never was. He didn't have the ball handling, shooting ability, ability to attack off the face up dribble to be a superstar high volume scorer.

So how the hell is that his biggest regret that he didn't do enough to out score Shaq AND Kobe? And where the hell did you hear this?

He would've done it if he was capable. And he never did that in a Bulls uniform, even in his prime from '91 - '96.

That Blazers team lost due to not having a true superstar, or high volume scorer. Lacked alpha caliber leadership. Just a bunch of Indians without a Chief.

That's the thing about Pippen! When MJ left the Bulls to play baseball, Pip's scoring average HARDLY CHANGED! If Pip was an alpha dog, he would have picked up his scoring BIG TIME at that point. That team was SEVERELY LACKING quality scoring depth. And Phil is known to get the best out of guys as well. But EVEN PHIL KNEW Pip wasn't an alpha dog. Pip simply didn't have the overall toolbox to be a dominant scorer.

[Smoke117]

Your stone has a pulse? Bring angry, bitter, and stupid Smoke117 out for all of our entertainment please?

:lol

I'm dying to see you call me a loser, fake coach or a punk or some other obnoxious ISH cliche.

Settle down, bro. Why you are acting so hostile?

[SamuraiSWISH]

You're starting to kill my stone and ****ing piss me off. You see everything in Jordan shaded glasses...you're not 3ball...but you're not much better when it comes to him. I almost like your post too when were not discussing Jordan or Pippen.
I feel the same when you're not underrating MJ, overrating Pip, or in a total delusion of hate in regards to Kobe. Your Wade and David Robinson posts are about as accurate as they come.

[Jameerthefear]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM3AV1xLyEQ
zekeeeee

[Smoke117]

I feel the same when you're not underrating MJ, overrating Pip, or in a total delusion of hate in regards to Kobe. Your Wade and David Robinson posts are about as accurate as they come.

I say a lot of stuff about Kobe just to piss off Kobe stans and because it's the same stupid threads over and over...there is nothing to be discussed anymore, but these children here just won't stop repeating the same threads over and over.

Don't get me wrong...I find him overrated in many ways...especially defensively, but I don't hate him.

[ClipperRevival]

In a vaccum, I can see many picking Kidd. He was taller, bigger, stronger, a GOAT level defender for a PG, a walking triple double and he checked so many boxes.

But man, I love me some Isiah. He was one of the greatest leaders ever who galvinized teammates. Clutch as hell and a straight killer. And as Bizil said, he was not only a great passing PG but could take over the game offensively when it was needed. Truly a rare combo. The analytics won't favor Isiah but the people who saw him live know he was clearly "the man" for those Pistons teams.

[ClipperRevival]

Lol.

Smoke defending Pip's scoring again. Ridiculous. Why can't you just accept reality? He was a GOAT level 2nd fiddle but never had the alpha scoring abilities.

Just ponder this. MJ had more 40 point games in his 2 seasons with the Wiz than Pip had his entire freaken career. Being an alpha dog scorer is hard, something few can do. Pip was never one of them. He was a GOAT level all around player but not an alpha dog scorer. These are simple facts.

[ZMonkey11]

I'll take the dude that scored 16 points in 90 seconds...during the playoffs.

I'll take the dude that scored 25 points in one quarter, on a sprained ankle...during the playoffs.

I'll take the two-time champion.

I'll take the Finals MVP.

I'll take the leader of the Bad Boys.

[GimmeThat]

if Don Nelson were to build a championship team with Jason Kidd as the coach

he'd know very well how to hide players that don't fit together on the same court at the same time.

I suspect it's also a matter as to whether or not he could hide his own coaching style by preaching the best high % shot as a team instead of what fits player's playing style.

[bizil]

In a vaccum, I can see many picking Kidd. He was taller, bigger, stronger, a GOAT level defender for a PG, a walking triple double and he checked so many boxes.

But man, I love me some Isiah. He was one of the greatest leaders ever who galvinized teammates. Clutch as hell and a straight killer. And as Bizil said, he was not only a great passing PG but could take over the game offensively when it was needed. Truly a rare combo. The analytics won't favor Isiah but the people who saw him live know he was clearly "the man" for those Pistons teams.

Great post! I don't if people realize how rare it is the be a pass first PG AND a great scorer in one. Big O, Magic, and Isiah are the three kings in that realm. In today's game, CP3 and to an extent Wall (still growing in this regard but not quite there yet) are the last of a dying breed for these type of PG's.

It allows them to dictate policy in a way other kinds of PG's can't. Some guys are great scorers like Steph, Westbrook, or peak Rose. BUT they aren't the floor general Isiah is. And YET, Isiah can score on their level or close if he has to.

By this I mean Zeke could GO OFF for 40 points and play like AI! In the Detroit days, Dumars would swing to PG and let Isiah be the SG at times. Some PG's are pass first like Stockton, Kidd, Mark Jackson, MO Cheeks, Cousy, etc. BUT they can't dominate scoring like Isiah.

[bizil]

Lol.

Smoke defending Pip's scoring again. Ridiculous. Why can't you just accept reality? He was a GOAT level 2nd fiddle but never had the alpha scoring abilities.

Just ponder this. MJ had more 40 point games in his 2 seasons with the Wiz than Pip had his entire freaken career. Being an alpha dog scorer is hard, something few can do. Pip was never one of them. He was a GOAT level all around player but not an alpha dog scorer. These are simple facts.

Right on the money! If Pip had alpha dog scoring ability, GUESS WHAT? He would arguably be TO THIS DAY the GOAT SF. And if he was the GOAT SF, THAT MEANS he would be top 10 GOAT!

Because he redefined the SF position, has six rings, two gold medals, and some consider him the best defensive perimeter player ever. But SINCE EVERYBODY knows he wasn't an alpha dog, he's rated AT BEST a top 5-7 SF of all time. And overall AT BEST most consider him more of a top 30-40 player. The MAIN KINK in Pip's armor was the alpha dog scoring.

And I don't want to hear he had MJ so he didn't have to be. There were MANY DUOS in NBA history that featured two alpha dogs. Kobe-Shaq, Doc-Moses, Bron-Wade, and Baylor-West among others. And in some cases, arguably three. Pip just wasn't alpha dog caliber no matter how people slice it.

[Hey Yo]

I'll take Kidd

Taller with better vision and defense