Better Scorer: LeBron James or Wilt Chamberlain? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

LAZERUSS

09-17-2016, 10:47 AM

How about this...

Scoring? How about post-season runs of 28, 29, 33, 35, 35, and 37 ppg? How about post-season series of 37, 37, 39, and 39 ppg? How about post-season series of 28-30, 29-28, 30-31, 31-27, and 34-27 against RUSSELL? How about 13 playoff games of 40+...11 of which came in his 52 playoff games in his "scoring" seasons (21% for those keeping track.) How about MUST WIN games of 45-27 (Finals BTW), 46-34 (against RUSSELL BTW), 50-22, 50-35 (against RUSSELL BTW), and even a 56-35-12 game? As well as another 50 point game in the '64 WDF's. Or series clinching games of 30-32, 30-26, 38-26, and 39-26-10?

How about his MUST WIN playoff games? In his 23 must win playoff games...

31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-seasons that shot .435 in the same span.)

How about his 37 MUST WIN, and SERIES CLINCHING playoff games?

29.5 ppg, 26.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, and on a .546 FG% (again, in post-seasons that shot .435 in that span...or nearly TWELVE percentage points above the league average.)

And this....

How about this?

What's the difference between Wilt's post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, '68, and his post-season H2H's with Russell's Celtics in '64 and '69?

NONE. Those H2H's basically decided the NBA championship. Plain-and-simple. BUT, in '60, '62, '65, '66, '67, and '68...they were the EDF's. And NOT the Finals.

What were Wilt's numbers in those EDF's? 22-25-7; 22-32-10 .556; 28-30 .509; 30-31 .555; and 34-27.

Compare that with Lebron's seven trips to the Finals. Give me a list of a great Eastern team that James beat en route to the Finals. NONE. The ONE team that was great, the '08 Celtics... held Lebron to .355 shooting...and that came in ECSF's.

Not only that, but how take a look at Russell's Finals in his career. SIX of them came against the Lakers. Throw out the '69 Finals, when he faced Wilt, and did nothing offensively...and he was putting up Finals of 23-27-6 on .543 FG%; 20-26-5 on .467; 18-25-6 on get this... a .702 FG%; 24-24-4 .538; and 17-22-6 on .430. That's a combined average of 21-25-5 on a .515 FG%.

Now, how many times did Wilt face those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's? NONE. And how did Wilt fare against those Laker teams in the decade of the 60's... 86 H2H's, and 42 games of 40+, including 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even 2 of 70+!

Prior to 1969, Chamberlain played exactly ONE playoff series against a Western Division team. How did he do? 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .560 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .420.)

Think about that. Had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his prime, he likely would have been going to the Finals nearly every year, and probably hanging 40+ ppg playoff series in several of them.

Furthermore, how about Shaq's Finals? In his wins... against a washed-up Smits in his last season; a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was allowed to bloody to a pulp by some of the worst Finals officiating in NBA history..only the '06 debacle was worse); a career 6 ppg stumblebum in MacCoulloch; and the career bust Dampier. Had a PRIME Chamberlain faced those inept clods, and who knows how many Finals scoring, rebounding, and efficiency records Wilt would hold today.

CONTEXT.

RRR3

09-17-2016, 10:59 AM

LeBron has as many playoffs (4) scoring 30+ PPG as Wilt does. His 2008-09 playoff run is also significantly better than any of Wilt's, strictly going by scoring stats.

LAZERUSS

09-17-2016, 11:04 AM

LeBron has as many playoffs (4) scoring 30+ PPG as Wilt does. His 2008-09 playoff run is also significantly better than any of Wilt's, strictly going by scoring stats.

C'mon... Wilt had playoff run of 34.7 rpg, 25.2 rpg, and on a .543 FG% in a post-season that shot .420 overall. Included was a WDF's seven game series of 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and on a .559 FG%. He then faced RUSSELL in the Finals, and all he could do was put up a 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .517 Finals (to Russell's 10.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and .386 FG% BTW.)

But how about this comparision...

Let me give you an example...

In Chamberlain's 64-65 season, he was traded mid-year, for three decent players, to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before. He then single-handedly carried what was a 40-40 team, past Oscar's stacked 48-32 Royals in the first round.

Then, he took that roster, which had gone 34-46 without him...up against the six-time defending champion, and 62-18 Celtics, with SIX HOFers, and at the peal of their dynasty...

to a game seven, one point loss. In a game in which Chamberlain scored 30 pts on 12-15 shooting (and with a .724 TS%), with 32 rebounds. And in that game, he scored Philly's last 8 points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs remaining, and a dunk over Russell with 5 secs left...to pull the Sixers to within 110-109. Then, after the "clutch" Russell hit a guidewire with an inbounds pass, the Sixers had a chance to pull off the greatest upset in NBA playoff history. Alas, a Wilt teammate, Hal Greer, threw an inbounds pass that was picked off by Hondo. Oh, and while Chamberlain shot 12-15 from the floor, his teammates collectively shot 28-75 from the floor.. .373...in that one point loss.

For the series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, with 31.4 rpg (and a 24.8 TRB%), on a .555 FG% (in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .413 overall), and with a .575 TS%, and with 7.0 bpg. Led BOTH teams in MPG, PPG, RPG, TRB%, FG%, TS%, and BPG.

Oh, and then Boston went on to rout the Baylor-less Lakers in the Finals, 4-1, which included two 30+ point blowout wins. In a series in which Russell averaged 18-25-6 on a .702 FG%. And against this center...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._id2=chambwi01

Compare that with Lebron's '16 Finals. Took a 57-25 team up against a 73-9 team that barely won a seven game series against a 55 win team, and was outscored in that series. Then, after the Warriors went up 3-1, the NBA suspended Draymond Green; Andrew Bogut, their rim-protector, missed the last two games with an injury; and the "Lebron-Stopper" Iguadala injured his back and was just a shell in the last two games of the series.

In the game seven win, Lebron shot 9-24 from the field, including 0-4 in the last four minutes. He needed a great defensive stop by Kevin Love (of all people), and a game winning trey from Kyrie to win the game.

Lebron's game seven stats:

27 points, on 9-24 from the field, with an eFG% of .396, in a game in which the two teams combined to shoot .450. And with a TS% of .475, in a game in which the two teams combined to shoot a TS% of .501.

He also had a teammate score 26 points, on a .478 eFG%, and a .525 TS%.

The best player on the floor in that game seven?

How about Draymond Green, who as you will recall, was suspended in game five. Green put up a game high 32 points, on a .933 eFG% and a .955 TS%, with a game high 15 rebounds.

James had a great series, but not a Wilt-esque '65 EDF's.

29.7 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 8.9 apg on a .533 eFG%, and a .562 TS%, in a series in which both teams shot considerably higher than the teams in Wilt's '65 EDF's. BTW, Chamberlain shot an eFG% of .555 in his '65 series against the Celtics...in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .413 overall. Lebron's .533 eFG% came in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .508.

In any case... Lebron was one shot away from losing the '16 Finals, and Wilt was one bad inbounds pass away from winning a ring in '65.

BTW...none other than John Wooden claimed that had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters in their 10 years in the league together, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

RRR3

09-17-2016, 11:10 AM

C'mon... Wilt had playoff run of 34.7 rpg, 25.2 rpg, and on a .543 FG% in a post-season that shot .420 overall. Included was a WDF's seven game series of 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and on a .559 FG%. He then faced RUSSELL in the Finals, and all he could do was put up a 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .517 Finals (to Russell's 10.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and .386 FG% BTW.)

But how about this comparision...
His best playoff run scoring wise, for sure. PPG dropped significantly against Russell though. LeBron's 2009 playoff run was 35.3 PPG on 51%, and he did it in 41.4 MPG, compared to the 46.5 MPG Wilt played. Also, LeBron was more efficient since he could actually hit a FT.

LAZERUSS

09-17-2016, 11:15 AM

LeBron has as many playoffs (4) scoring 30+ PPG as Wilt does. His 2008-09 playoff run is also significantly better than any of Wilt's, strictly going by scoring stats.

BTW, you are an intelligent poster. Let me ask you...

Do you think Wilt only scored 21.7 ppg in his '67 playoff run because that's all he could do? I'll help you out...in his very first two playoff games in that run, he put up games of 41 and 37 points, and on a combined .654 FG%. But then, he only scored 16 points in game three. What happened? How about 30 rebounds with a then playoff record of 19 assists (and estimates of as high as 20 blocked shots.)

In the clinching game five blowout win over the Dynasty, he scored 29 points...but 22 of them came in the first half when the game was still close. And just the year before, he hung a 46 point game on Russell in the clinching loss.

In the Finals, he "only" scored 17.5 ppg. Was it because he couldn't score against Nate? Hmmm, in their first H2H in that season, he had 6 points at halftime. His coach asked his team to start feeding Wilt...and he finished with 30 points, on 14-18 shooting, with 26 rebounds, and 11 blocks. Just a year earlier he hung back-to-back games on Thurmond of 33 and 45 points, and then had a 38 point game (on 15-22 shooting) against him later on.

How about Wilt's "12 ppg" Finals in '69?

Couldn't score, right?

How about this...

https://books.google.com/books?id=9BaqPfGcI84C&pg=PA355&lpg=PA355&dq=butch+van+breda+kolff+had+chamberlain+playing+t he+high+post&source=bl&ots=rQxpX4Ys7l&sig=oosFtJ3aB-NUrdTlS-5xi8-eHyI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi70fWD0svKAhVDuYMKHSvWDRgQ6AEIQTAJ#v=on epage&q=butch%20van%20breda%20kolff%20had%20chamberlain% 20playing%20the%20high%20post&f=false

His COACH had him playing the HIGH POST. So that Baylor could roam the baseline. How did that strategy work? Baylor shot .397 in the Finals, and with games (in losses) of 4-18, 2-14, and a game seven of 8-22.

And you gotta love this comment:

"So we were able to throw the ball down low to Wilt, and he would score, but it was an ugly offense to watch."

The REALITY was, Chamberlain played whatever role was asked of him.

And one more time...

In the '72 WCF's, and against a PEAK Kareem, and in a series in which Wilt averaged 12 ppg...Time Magazine declared that Wilt "decisively outplayed" Kareem.

Meanwhile, in Lebron's '15 Finals, he averaged 35.8 ppg...on a .398 FG%. And watched as a bench player, who defended him in that series, hoisted the FMVP.

Just some food for thought.

RRR3

09-17-2016, 11:17 AM

BTW, you are an intelligent poster. Let me ask you...

Do you think Wilt only scored 21.7 ppg in his '67 playoff run because that's all he could do? I'll help you out...in his very first two playoff games in that run, he put up games of 41 and 37 points, and on a combined .654 FG%. But then, he only scored 16 points in game three. What happened? How about 30 rebounds with a then playoff record of 19 assists (and estimates of as high as 20 blocked shots.)

In the clinching game five blowout win over the Dynasty, he scored 29 points...but 22 of them came in the first half when the game was still close. And just the year before, he hung a 46 point game on Russell in the clinching loss.

In the Finals, he "only" scored 17.5 ppg. Was it because he couldn't score against Nate? Hmmm, in their first H2H in that season, he had 6 points at halftime. His coach asked his team to start feeding Wilt...and he finished with 30 points, on 14-18 shooting, with 26 rebounds, and 11 blocks. Just a year earlier he hung back-to-back games on Thurmond of 33 and 45 points, and then had a 38 point game (on 15-22 shooting) against him later on.

How about Wilt's "12 ppg" Finals in '69?

Couldn't score, right?

How about this...

https://books.google.com/books?id=9BaqPfGcI84C&pg=PA355&lpg=PA355&dq=butch+van+breda+kolff+had+chamberlain+playing+t he+high+post&source=bl&ots=rQxpX4Ys7l&sig=oosFtJ3aB-NUrdTlS-5xi8-eHyI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi70fWD0svKAhVDuYMKHSvWDRgQ6AEIQTAJ#v=on epage&q=butch%20van%20breda%20kolff%20had%20chamberlain% 20playing%20the%20high%20post&f=false

His COACH had him playing the HIGH POST. So that Baylor could roam the baseline. How did that strategy work? Baylor shot .397 in the Finals, and with games (in losses) of 4-18, 2-14, and a game seven of 8-22.

And you gotta love this comment:

"So we were able to throw the ball down low to Wilt, and he would score, but it was an ugly offense to watch."

The REALITY was, Chamberlain played whatever role was asked of him.

And one more time...

In the '72 WCF's, and against a PEAK Kareem, and in a series in which Wilt averaged 12 ppg...Time Magazine declared that Wilt "decisively outplayed" Kareem.

Meanwhile, in Lebron's '15 Finals, he averaged 35.8 ppg...on a .398 FG%. And watched as a bench player, who defended him in that series, hoisted the FMVP.

Just some food for thought.

I'm well aware Wilt could have scored more than he did for the second half of his career. Maybe you should consider the fact that Wilt was seemingly a better player when he scored less in regards to this debate, because LeBron at his best is scoring a ton. Seems that perhaps LeBron's scoring is more impactful, eh?

LAZERUSS

09-17-2016, 11:22 AM

His best playoff run scoring wise, for sure. PPG dropped significantly against Russell though. LeBron's 2009 playoff run was 35.3 PPG on 51%, and he did it in 41.4 MPG, compared to the 46.5 MPG Wilt played. Also, LeBron was more efficient since he could actually hit a FT.

First of all, you basically answered your own question. RUSSELL, AND, his swarming teammates.

How about this quote from teammate Tommy Heinsohn?

http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html

In Chamberlain's first year, and for several years afterward, opposing teams simply didn't know how to handle him. Tom Heinsohn, the great Celtics forward who later became a coach and broadcaster, said Boston was one of the first clubs to apply a team-defense concept to stop Chamberlain. "We went for his weakness," Heinsohn told the Philadelphia Daily News in 1991, "tried to send him to the foul line, and in doing that he took the most brutal pounding of any player ever.. I hear people today talk about hard fouls. Half the fouls against him were hard fouls."

BTW, Chamberlain and Russell squared off in eight playoff series, and Wilt INCREASED his scoring, from his regular season H2H's against Russell in HALF of them.

And just for the record... playoff series against RUSSELL of 22-25-7; 22-32-10 .556; 28-30 .509; 29-28 .517; 30-31 .555; 31-27 .500; and 34-27. He also had four playoff games of 40+ against Russell, including a 46 point "must win" game, and even a 50-35 "must win" game.

Oh, and please don't use "efficiency" against Wilt.

I pointed it out already, but Wilt was routinely outshooting the post-season league average by 10+ percentage points. How about his '65 EDF's? 30./1 ppg, on a .555 FG%, in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .413 overall. Lebron's '16 Finals was .533 eFG% in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot an eFG% of .508.

RRR3

09-17-2016, 11:24 AM

First of all, you basically answered your own question. RUSSELL, AND, his swarming teammates.

How about this quote from teammate Tommy Heinsohn?

http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html

BTW, Chamberlain and Russell squared off in eight playoff series, and Wilt INCREASED his scoring, from his regular season H2H's against Russell in HALF of them.

And just for the record... playoff series against RUSSELL of 22-25-7; 22-32-10 .556; 28-30 .509; 29-28 .517; 30-31 .555; 31-27 .500; and 34-27. He also had four playoff games of 40+ against Russell, including a 46 point "must win" game, and even a 50-35 "must win" game.

Oh, and please don't use "efficiency" against Wilt.

I pointed it out already, but Wilt was routinely outshooting the post-season league average by 10+ percentage points. How about his '65 EDF's? 30./1 ppg, on a .555 FG%, in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .413 overall. Lebron's '16 Finals was .533 eFG% in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot an eFG% of .508.
I wouldn't bring up LeBron's 2016 finals in this debate if I were you

LAZERUSS

09-17-2016, 11:26 AM

I'm well aware Wilt could have scored more than he did for the second half of his career. Maybe you should consider the fact that Wilt was seemingly a better player when he scored less in regards to this debate, because LeBron at his best is scoring a ton. Seems that perhaps LeBron's scoring is more impactful, eh?

In Wilt's '62 season, he led the league in ppg at 50.4 ppg, He then took that roster, the core of which was still the same last place roster he had inherited in his rookie season (now older and worse), to a game seven, two point loss against a HOF-laden 60-20 team...in a series in which he averaged 34 ppg.

In his '65 season, he took a team that had gone 34-46 the year before, and could only go 40-40 with him...to a game seven, one point loss...in a series in which he averaged 30 ppg.

That isn't "impactful?"

The reason his scoring declined was BECAUSE his teammates became better. He wasn't asked to score as much. Still doesn't mean he COULDN'T have scored more.

RRR3

09-17-2016, 11:29 AM

In Wilt's '62 season, he led the league in ppg at 50.4 ppg, He then took that roster, the core of which was still the same last place roster he had inherited in his rookie season (now older and worse), to a game seven, two point loss against a HOF-laden 60-20 team...in a series in which he averaged 34 ppg.

In his '65 season, he took a team that had gone 34-46 the year before, and could only go 40-40 with him...to a game seven, one point loss...in a series in which he averaged 30 ppg.

That isn't "impactful?"

The reason his scoring declined was BECAUSE his teammates became better. He wasn't asked to score as much. Still doesn't mean he COULDN'T have scored more.
50 to 34 is a GIGANTIC drop. He averaged 35 PPG in the 62 playoffs, but on 28.9 shots per game! Meanwhile, 09 LeBron averaged 35.3 PPG on just 22.3 shots! :bowdown:

BTW, Wilt took 39.5 (!) shots per game when he scored 50.4 PPG. I'm just saying.

LAZERUSS

09-17-2016, 11:31 AM

I wouldn't bring up LeBron's 2016 finals in this debate if I were you

Why?

I will point this out again...

Let me give you an example...

In Chamberlain's 64-65 season, he was traded mid-year, for three decent players, to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before. He then single-handedly carried what was a 40-40 team, past Oscar's stacked 48-32 Royals in the first round.

Then, he took that roster, which had gone 34-46 without him...up against the six-time defending champion, and 62-18 Celtics, with SIX HOFers, and at the peal of their dynasty...

to a game seven, one point loss. In a game in which Chamberlain scored 30 pts on 12-15 shooting (and with a .724 TS%), with 32 rebounds. And in that game, he scored Philly's last 8 points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs remaining, and a dunk over Russell with 5 secs left...to pull the Sixers to within 110-109. Then, after the "clutch" Russell hit a guidewire with an inbounds pass, the Sixers had a chance to pull off the greatest upset in NBA playoff history. Alas, a Wilt teammate, Hal Greer, threw an inbounds pass that was picked off by Hondo. Oh, and while Chamberlain shot 12-15 from the floor, his teammates collectively shot 28-75 from the floor.. .373...in that one point loss.

For the series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, with 31.4 rpg (and a 24.8 TRB%), on a .555 FG% (in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .413 overall), and with a .575 TS%, and with 7.0 bpg. Led BOTH teams in MPG, PPG, RPG, TRB%, FG%, TS%, and BPG.

Oh, and then Boston went on to rout the Baylor-less Lakers in the Finals, 4-1, which included two 30+ point blowout wins. In a series in which Russell averaged 18-25-6 on a .702 FG%. And against this center...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._id2=chambwi01

Compare that with Lebron's '16 Finals. Took a 57-25 team up against a 73-9 team that barely won a seven game series against a 55 win team, and was outscored in that series. Then, after the Warriors went up 3-1, the NBA suspended Draymond Green; Andrew Bogut, their rim-protector, missed the last two games with an injury; and the "Lebron-Stopper" Iguadala injured his back and was just a shell in the last two games of the series.

In the game seven win, Lebron shot 9-24 from the field, including 0-4 in the last four minutes. He needed a great defensive stop by Kevin Love (of all people), and a game winning trey from Kyrie to win the game.

Lebron's game seven stats:

27 points, on 9-24 from the field, with an eFG% of .396, in a game in which the two teams combined to shoot .450. And with a TS% of .475, in a game in which the two teams combined to shoot a TS% of .501.

He also had a teammate score 26 points, on a .478 eFG%, and a .525 TS%.

The best player on the floor in that game seven?

How about Draymond Green, who as you will recall, was suspended in game five. Green put up a game high 32 points, on a .933 eFG% and a .955 TS%, with a game high 15 rebounds.

James had a great series, but not a Wilt-esque '65 EDF's.

29.7 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 8.9 apg on a .533 eFG%, and a .562 TS%, in a series in which both teams shot considerably higher than the teams in Wilt's '65 EDF's. BTW, Chamberlain shot an eFG% of .555 in his '65 series against the Celtics...in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .413 overall. Lebron's .533 eFG% came in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .508.

In any case... Lebron was one shot away from losing the '16 Finals, and Wilt was one bad inbounds pass away from winning a ring in '65.

BTW...none other than John Wooden claimed that had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters in their 10 years in the league together, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

Now, you tell me who had a better series? Lebron in his '16 Finals, or Wilt in his '65 EDF's (which, as always, decided the NBA championship. Case in point...Boston went on to rout the '65 Baylor-less Lakers, 4-1 in the Finals.)

The REALITY was, Lebron was a teammate's game-winning shot away from losing a ring, while Wilt was a teammate's turnover away from winning a ring.

And, let's get real here. RINGS are a TEAM accomplishment. If you don't believe that, then everyone here should claim that Kobe's 5/7 was much greater than Lebron's 3/7, right?

RRR3

09-17-2016, 11:33 AM

Why?

I will point this out again...

Now, you tell me who had a better series? Lebron in his '16 Finals, or Wilt in his '65 EDF's (which, as always, decided the NBA championship. Case in point...Boston went on to rout the '65 Baylor-less Lakers, 4-1 in the Finals.)

The REALITY was, Lebron was a teammate's game-winning shot away from losing a ring, while Wilt was a teammate's turnover away from winning a ring.

And, let's get real here. RINGS are a TEAM accomplishment. If you don't believe that, then everyone here should claim that Kobe's 5/7 was much greater than Lebron's 3/7, right?
Rings honestly mean jack shit, and Wilt has a good case for being better than LeBron overall as a player, but his edge would be in rebounding and defensive impact. I don't think there's some big gap when comparing them strictly as scorers.

LAZERUSS

09-17-2016, 11:34 AM

50 to 34 is a GIGANTIC drop. He averaged 35 PPG in the 62 playoffs, but on 28.9 shots per game! Meanwhile, 09 LeBron averaged 35.3 PPG on just 22.3 shots! :bowdown:

BTW, Wilt took 39.5 (!) shots per game when he scored 50.4 PPG. I'm just saying.

Yet, how did Lebron's TEAM fare in that run?

Wilt gets blamed for "losing" in a post-season in which he put up 35.0 ppg, and "lost" a game seven in the EDF's by two points, in a series in which he averaged 34 ppg.

BTW, he "only" averaged 39.7 ppg against Russell in their 10 regular season H2H's...so his 34 ppg EDF's were not THAT big of a drop.

And again...using "efficiency" against Wilt is not a valid argument, when Chamberlain was ousthooting the post-season league averages by a FAR higher differential than Lebron has done in his post-season career.

RRR3

09-17-2016, 11:36 AM

Yet, how did Lebron's TEAM fare in that run?

Wilt gets blamed for "losing" in a post-season in which he put up 35.0 ppg, and "lost" a game seven in the EDF's by two points, in a series in which he averaged 34 ppg.

BTW, he "only" averaged 39.7 ppg against Russell in their 10 regular season H2H's...so his 34 ppg EDF's were not THAT big of a drop.

And again...using "efficiency" against Wilt is not a valid argument, when Chamberlain was ousthooting the post-season league averages by a FAR higher differential than Lebron has done in his post-season career.
Where do you see ME blaming Wilt for anything? :kobe: Dude gets disrespected on ISH, no doubt about it, but a lot of that is people trolling you, which is kind of what I'm doing rn to be honest. Well, not trolling, but I am trying to have an argument with you, and I think LeBron has a pretty good case here.

tpols

09-17-2016, 11:36 AM

RRR3

09-17-2016, 11:40 AM

Wilt was unfortunate in that he had to see russell and his celtics dynasty every damn year, and a ton of the matchups were second rounders so wilt hardly had time to beat up on soft teams...

imagine if Lebron had to face Tim Duncan (prime) and the spurs his WHOLE career in the second round, only one round beforehand to beat up a scrub... his numbers would nosedive simply based on that context.

little kids trolling wilt dont understand that.. he had to face a GOAT team as his second playoff matchup almost every year.. imagine wilt getting to beat up on scrub teams for 3 rounds than seeing, dallas or okc or golden state with bogut out and dray suspended ... Wilt would be shattering records on his way to rings.
Still melting down about the finals I see.

You're right about context needing to be applied to Wilt's playoffs, and he did face Russell in about 1/3 of his playoff games. Remove Wilt's stats from his games against Russell's Celtics if you want, would be interested in seeing what his stats would look like.

LAZERUSS

09-17-2016, 11:45 AM

Where do you see ME blaming Wilt for anything? :kobe: Dude gets disrespected on ISH, no doubt about it, but a lot of that is people trolling you, which is kind of what I'm doing rn to be honest. Well, not trolling, but I am trying to have an argument with you, and I think LeBron has a pretty good case here.

How about this...

Russell faced the Lakers in the Finals FIVE times in the 60's (actually six, but in the last one, he went up against Wilt and did nothing offensively.) He AVERAGED 21-25 on a .515 FG% in those FIVE series. He had a high ppg series of 23.6 ppg, and a high FG% of .702 against them, as well.

Wilt never faced the Lakers even ONCE in the decade of the 60's, but just destroyed them in his 86 regular season H2H's. He had 42 games of 40+, which included 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even two of 70+. He had entire regular season series against LA, in which he averaged 41 ppg, 44 ppg, 48 ppg, and even 52 ppg.

Now be honest here...what do you think his post-season scoring and efficiecy marks might look like had he faced them in his prime? Especially if he would have faced them FIVE times?

RRR3

09-17-2016, 11:47 AM

How about this...

Russell faced the Lakers in the Finals FIVE times in the 60's (actually six, but in the last one, he went up against Wilt and did nothing offensively.) He AVERAGED 21-25 on a .515 FG% in those FIVE series. He had a high ppg series of 23.6 ppg, and a high FG% of .702 against them, as well.

Wilt never faced the Lakers even ONCE in the decade of the 60's, but just destroyed them in his 86 regular season H2H's. He had 42 games of 40+, which included 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even two of 70+. He had entire regular season series against LA, in which he averaged 41 ppg, 44 ppg, 48 ppg, and even 52 ppg.

Now be honest here...what do you think his post-season scoring and efficiecy marks might look like had he faced them in his prime? Especially if he would have faced them FIVE times?
Higher, obviously. The thing about Wilt's scoring is that he was such a rotten FT shooter, that could be exploited. Certainly some good answers in this thread on Wilt's behalf, that make this a good discussion :cheers: LeBron is one of the greatest scorers who ever lived, though, so don't act like using him as a comparison is an insult. MJ is pretty clearly the GOAT scorer, no use in debating that.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

09-17-2016, 11:48 AM

Wilt was unfortunate in that he had to see russell and his celtics dynasty every damn year, and a ton of the matchups were second rounders so wilt hardly had time to beat up on soft teams...

imagine if Lebron had to face Tim Duncan (prime) and the spurs his WHOLE career in the second round, only one round beforehand to beat up a scrub... his numbers would nosedive simply based on that context.

little kids trolling wilt dont understand that.. he had to face a GOAT team as his second playoff matchup almost every year.. imagine wilt getting to beat up on scrub teams for 3 rounds than seeing, dallas or okc or golden state with bogut out and dray suspended ... Wilt would be shattering records on his way to rings.

Astute post.

I'm not a big fan of Wilt's because his play significantly dropped in the postseason, or at least from a scoring perspective, although the context you mentioned has a lot to do with that.

Its kinda like the Kobe and LeBron scoring debate. Bean played better comp, sacrificed playing alongside Shaq, and, for the most part, was in a structured offense for the vast majority of his career... one that didn't see his usage rate skyrocket like LeBron's who had the fortune of dominating the basketball both in FGA and all around possession.

I'd take Wilt as a scorer. Ditto with Kobe.

LAZERUSS

09-17-2016, 11:52 AM

Higher, obviously. The thing about Wilt's scoring is that he was such a rotten FT shooter, that could be exploited. Certainly some good answers in this thread on Wilt's behalf, that make this a good discussion :cheers: LeBron is one of the greatest scorers who ever lived, though, so don't act like using him as a comparison is an insult. MJ is pretty clearly the GOAT scorer, no use in debating that.

:cheers:

I don't mind having intelligent conversations here with quality posters.

BTW, and I'm sure you are well of it...I was one of the few here who DEFENDED Lebron's "failures." But what has irritated me, is that the Lebron family was nowhere to be found after game four of this year's Finals. Then, when he did engineer a remarkable comeback series win...ALL OF A SUDDEN they came crawling out of the woodwork. Feeble was the worst. He was claiming that Chokurry was the next all-time great. He even scoffed at the "branvestites."

I moved Lebron from #9 on my all-time list to anywhere between 6-8 (Shaq and Duncan.) But in no way am I going to move him higher, right now, based on three games.

RRR3

09-17-2016, 11:55 AM

:cheers:

I don't mind having intelligent conversations here with quality posters.

BTW, and I'm sure you are well of it...I was one of the few here who DEFENDED Lebron's "failures." But what has irritated me, is that the Lebron family was nowhere to be found after game four of this year's Finals. Then, when he did engineer a remarkable comeback series win...ALL OF A SUDDEN they came crawling out of the woodwork. Feeble was the worst. He was claiming that Chokurry was the next all-time great. He even scoffed at the "branvestites."

I moved Lebron from #9 on my all-time list to anywhere between 6-8 (Shaq and Duncan.) But in no way am I going to move him higher, right now, based on three games.
Curry is an all-time great player, and I can't stand him. I'm not responsible for retards like silkktheshocker spamming LeBron is GOAT topics.

Big164

09-17-2016, 12:13 PM

https://s22.postimg.org/amtw539cx/points.png

https://s18.postimg.io/9qbrx4fkp/ppg.png

50 point games (Playoffs)
Michael Jordan 8
Wilt Chamberlain 4
Allen Iverson 3
Jerry West 2
Ray Allen 1
Lebron James 0

Its between MJ and Wilt, I dont even rank Leboon .

feyki

09-17-2016, 12:17 PM

RRR3

09-17-2016, 01:06 PM

It's close . Probably both are out of top 10 as all time great scorer . But they are close too .

Let see ..

Jordan
Shaq
Mikan
Ivy
Gervin
Durant
Kobe
T-Mac ( maybe not , i'm not sure )
Dirk
And then multiple options for here .. last spot ; Wilkins,Melo,Kareem,Lebron,Wilt,Moses,Barkley,Thom pson,Maravich,V-Carter,Wade,West,Pettit,Elgin,Arizin,McDermott,Ler oy.
Iverson and Mikan over Wilt and LeBron is laughable. Dirk's volume is pretty low compared to a lot of these guys. T-Mac is my guy, but he didn't sustain his best for very long. His 03 season is nuts though. Wilt and LeBron are easily top 10 scorers ever lol. GTFO with McDermott and Leroy, they didn't even play in the NBA ffs.

Screamin A Smit

09-17-2016, 01:48 PM

30-22-18 in a faster paced era

27-28-27 in a slower paced era

Hmmm.. the answer is LeBron

Mr Feeny

09-17-2016, 02:05 PM

LeBron has as many playoffs (4) scoring 30+ PPG as Wilt does. His 2008-09 playoff run is also significantly better than any of Wilt's, strictly going by scoring stats.more than that, Lebron is a 28 ppg playoff scorer. Ilt was a 22 ppg playoff scorer

Lebron already at 31 has more playoff points than Ilt ever had.
In fact, an injury ridden Dwyane WADE already has more playoff points than Wilt ever had:roll:

Mr Feeny

09-17-2016, 02:06 PM

It's close . Probably both are out of top 10 as all time great scorer . But they are close too .

Let see ..

Jordan
Shaq
Mikan
Ivy
Gervin
Durant
Kobe
T-Mac ( maybe not , i'm not sure )
Dirk
And then multiple options for here .. last spot ; Wilkins,Melo,Kareem,Lebron,Wilt,Moses,Barkley,Thom pson,Maravich,V-Carter,Wade,West,Pettit,Elgin,Arizin,McDermott,Ler oy.

On no planet is Kobe a better scorer than LeBron. Lebron had more 40 point finals games in 3 days than Kobrick had in 20 years! :lebronamazed:

Smoke117

09-17-2016, 02:08 PM

Wilt was unfortunate in that he had to see russell and his celtics dynasty every damn year, and a ton of the matchups were second rounders so wilt hardly had time to beat up on soft teams...

imagine if Lebron had to face Tim Duncan (prime) and the spurs his WHOLE career in the second round, only one round beforehand to beat up a scrub... his numbers would nosedive simply based on that context.

little kids trolling wilt dont understand that.. he had to face a GOAT team as his second playoff matchup almost every year.. imagine wilt getting to beat up on scrub teams for 3 rounds than seeing, dallas or okc or golden state with bogut out and dray suspended ... Wilt would be shattering records on his way to rings.

lol...calling out "little kids" and saying they don't understand anything about wilt? You're like 23...what the **** do you know about Wilt besides what you saw on youtube? And calling out trolls, really? That's all you've done since The Cavs won the finals...hypocrite much?

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

09-17-2016, 02:16 PM

lol...calling out "little kids" and saying they don't understand anything about wilt? You're like 23...what the **** do you know about Wilt besides what you saw on youtube? And calling out trolls, really? That's all you've done since The Cavs won the finals...hypocrite much?

That all might be valid, but it still doesn't make what he posted untrue.

Wilt facing the best defense AND defensive player, time and again, year AFTER year, should've hindered his stats.

Mr Feeny

09-17-2016, 02:17 PM

That all might be true, but it still doesn't make what he posted untrue.

Wilt facing the best defense AND defensive player, time and again, year AFTER year, should've hindered his stats.all the way to 18 ppg in finals?:(

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

09-17-2016, 02:22 PM

all the way to 18 ppg in finals?:(

Definitely not to that degree.

Wilt's postseason play, overall, along with his putrid FT shooting in clutch situations, is mainly why I put Bron over him.

As a scorer though? Tough to ignore all the records and feats Wilt broke and still holds today.

SouBeachTalents

09-17-2016, 02:28 PM

That all might be valid, but it still doesn't make what he posted untrue.

Wilt facing the best defense AND defensive player, time and again, year AFTER year, should've hindered his stats.

I don't disagree with that, but there's a difference between hinder and straight up plummeting numbers, and that's what Wilt's did every time he faced the Celtics

1960
RS: 38
Bos: 31, 26 in elimination Game 6

1962
RS: 50
Bos: 34, 22 in Game 7

1964
RS: 37
Bos: 29, 30 in elimination Game 5

1965
RS: 35
Bos: 30, 30 in Game 7

1968
RS: 24
Bos: 22, 14 in Game 7

1969
RS: 21
Bos: 12, 18 in Game 7

Regardless of opponent, those are massive drops in ppg, basically on the level of LeBron's 2011 Finals every postseason

Smoke117

09-17-2016, 02:29 PM

I just don't understand why Wilt comes up so much...none of us saw him play besides on youtube or nbatv. The game has also changed so much that asking who is a better scorer between Wilt and Lebron just makes no sense...the game is not played the same way now as it was in Wilt's era. Wilt was a once in a generation athlete in his time and look what he did...you wanna throw Lebron back into that era? He would demolish the league like Wilt did too...without context this question is pointless.

tpols

09-17-2016, 02:45 PM

lol...calling out "little kids" and saying they don't understand anything about wilt? You're like 23...what the **** do you know about Wilt besides what you saw on youtube? And calling out trolls, really? That's all you've done since The Cavs won the finals...hypocrite much?

the difference is im not trolling wilt or bron here.. i dont spam long posts of out of context numbers and smilies in every thread. if i troll its much more discrete than the wilt haters on this board

feyki

09-17-2016, 02:56 PM

Iverson and Mikan over Wilt and LeBron is laughable. Dirk's volume is pretty low compared to a lot of these guys. T-Mac is my guy, but he didn't sustain his best for very long. His 03 season is nuts though. Wilt and LeBron are easily top 10 scorers ever lol. GTFO with McDermott and Leroy, they didn't even play in the NBA ffs.

Typical insidetrolls response , that was my bad to wrote here .

RRR3

09-17-2016, 06:35 PM

Typical insidetrolls response , that was my bad to wrote here .
LeBron is quite clearly better than Mikan at scoring. In terms of just scoring and efficiency, Alex Groza shat on Mikan the two years he was in the league. Iverson's efficiency is much lower than LBJ's, and they score at a similar rate so....

NBAGOAT

09-17-2016, 09:23 PM

Astute post.

I'm not a big fan of Wilt's because his play significantly dropped in the postseason, or at least from a scoring perspective, although the context you mentioned has a lot to do with that.

Its kinda like the Kobe and LeBron scoring debate. Bean played better comp, sacrificed playing alongside Shaq, and, for the most part, was in a structured offense for the vast majority of his career... one that didn't see his usage rate skyrocket like LeBron's who had the fortune of dominating the basketball both in FGA and all around possession.

I'd take Wilt as a scorer. Ditto with Kobe.

but their usage rate is identical career wise... unless you're talking about something different like ball domination which is true then. Kobe's no Ray Allen however, he has held the ball just dribbling 10-15 seconds on possessions too. Also context needs to be applied, Lebron had to dominate on the ball on those Cavs teams. I'll take Wilt as a scorer however. Don't take his raw scoring stats at face value which is why someone like Baylor isn't a top 10 scorer of all time but his scoring feats can't be ignored. Kobe definitely has a case but it's mostly skillset based. The main statistical arguments are based on peak scoring(35ppg on good efficiency in 06) and Lebron's time of possession inflating his stats(even though that's not even all scoring).

TommyGriffin

09-17-2016, 09:38 PM

Prime LeBron got shut down in the Finals by Tyson Chandler, imagine if he had to face Bill Russell every year.

RedBlackAttack

09-17-2016, 09:54 PM

LAZERUSS

09-18-2016, 09:17 PM

I don't disagree with that, but there's a difference between hinder and straight up plummeting numbers, and that's what Wilt's did every time he faced the Celtics

1960
RS: 38
Bos: 31, 26 in elimination Game 6

1962
RS: 50
Bos: 34, 22 in Game 7

1964
RS: 37
Bos: 29, 30 in elimination Game 5

1965
RS: 35
Bos: 30, 30 in Game 7

1968
RS: 24
Bos: 22, 14 in Game 7

1969
RS: 21
Bos: 12, 18 in Game 7

Regardless of opponent, those are massive drops in ppg, basically on the level of LeBron's 2011 Finals every postseason

Hmmm..

MJ's regular season numbers against the NBA vs Bad Boys in the post-season:

1988
RS: 35.0 on a .535 FG%
Det: 27.4 on a .491
Clinching game: 25 on a .455

1989
RS: 32.5 on a .538
Det: 29.7 on a .460
Clincher: 32 on a .500
sidenote: MJ QUIT on his team in game 5: 18 pts on 8 FGA.

1990
RS: 33.6 on a .526
Det: 32.1 on a .467
Clincher: 31 on a .481

The 90-91 Pistons were a rapidly declining team and injury-riddled team, so no need to post his numbers...which were about equal to his RS numbers.

Shaq's regular season numbers vs the Robinson-led Spurs:

1999
RS: 26.3 on a .576
SA: 23.8 on a .493
Clincher: 36 on .522

2001
RS: 28.7 on a .572
SA: 27.0 on a .541
Clincher: 22 on a .579

2002
RS: 27.2 on a .579
SA: 21.4 on a .447
Clincher: 21 on a .389

2003
RS: 27.5 on a .574
SA: 25.3 on a .559
Clincher: 31 on .619
Sidenote: Robinson only played 21 mpg in this series and this was his last season.

Kareem's regular season numbers vs his post-season H2H's against Thurmond and Wilt.

1971
RS: 31.7 on a .577
Nate: 27.8 on a .486
Clincher: 23 on .600

Wilt: 25.0 on a .481
Clincher: 20 on a .300 (yes, .300)

1972
RS: 34.8 on a .574
Nate: 22.8 on a .405 (yes, a .405)
Clincher: 23 on a .360
Sidenote: Nate outscored KAJ in this series, 25.0 to 22.8, and outshot him .437 to .405.

Wilt:
33.7 on a .457
Clincher: 37 on a .432
Sidenote: KAJ shot .414 from the floor in the last four games.

1973: 30.2 on a .554
Nate in PO: 22.8 on a .428
Clincher: 27 on a .480

Now, let's take a look at Wilt's decline that you posted, just to put it in a better perspective:

1960
Wilt against Russell in the RS: 39.1 on a .465
60 EDF: 30.5 on a .500
Clincher: 26 on .444

Sidenote: Wilt in must win game five, 50-35 game on .524.

Sidenote: Wilt badly injured his hand at the end of game two, and it was even thought to be broken. It was so swollen he couldn't grip a basketball in game three. In that game three, Russell outscored Wilt, 26-12, and outrebounded Wilt, 39-15. Final score... 120-90.
How about the other five games: 34.2 ppg on a .520 FG% in a post-season that shot .402 overall.

1962
Wilt vs Russell RS: 39.7 on a .468
PO: 33.6 on a .468
Clincher: 22 on a .467

1964
Wilt vs Russell RS: 29.1 on a .530
PO: 29.2 on a .517
Clincher: 30 on .430

1965:
RS H2H's: 25.4 on a .473
PO: 30.1 on a .555
Clincher: 30 on .800 (yes, .800)

1966:
RS H2H's: 28.3 on a .473
PO: 28.0 on a .509
Clincher: 46 on a.559 with 34 rebs.

1967:
RS H2H's: 20.3 on a .549
PO: 21.6 on a .556
Clincher: 29-36-13-7 on a .625

1968:
RS H2H's: 17.1 on a .471
PO: 22.1 on a .480
Clincher: 14 on .444
Sidenote: Chamberlain played the entire series with a tear in his calf.

1969:
RS H2H's: 16.3 on a .507
PO: 11.7 on a .500
Clincher: 18-27-10 on an .875

Now, keep in mind that, aside from '69, Wilt faced the Celtics in either the first, or second round, in those seven years in which the two battled in the PS.

CONTEXT.

LAZERUSS

09-19-2016, 01:46 AM

I don't think it is possible to accurately compare eras so far apart. The game was still in its infancy, relatively speaking, when Wilt was in his prime.

Think about this... the NBA itself was only 10 years old when Wilt was a rookie.

Here we are over five decades later. The game has evolved and so have the players, coaches, training staffs, etc.

I'm confident that a player as talented as Wilt would be dominant today, but I have no idea what it would look like or how he would manifest himself against the modern athlete and with all of the techniques, training, nutrition, etc. available today.

If we are simply asking which guy was a better scorer against their respective competition, it is obviously Wilt. That's really the only thing I can judge him against.

I agree with much of what you say, but I do disagree about differences in era.

First of all, basketball was invented in the 1890's. It was played by colleges in the late 1890's. There were professional teams as far back as the 1920's. And the NBA was really formed in 1946, or about 14 years before Wilt arrived.

Furthermore, aside from two major rule changes...the shot clock at the beginning of the 1954-55 season, and the 3pt shot, in the 1979-80 season (alright, the ABA introduced it in the late 60's), the game has essentially been played the same way since it's inception.

Same number of players; same size court dimensions; same size hoop dimensions; roughly the same size ball; and many of the original rules.

Of course, there have been many "minor" rule changes along the way. Offensive and defensive goal-tending (several years before Wilt joined the NBA); the widening of the lane, from 12 to 16 ft, at the beginning of the 64-65 season. Incidently, colleges STILL use the 12 ft lane. Oh, and the widening of the lane had ZERO effect on Wilt.... even though it was aimed directly at him (it actually affected the rest of the NBA more than it did Wilt.) And many other even more minute rules.

Integration? Blacks were playing in colleges and the pros in the 50's. By the mid-60's the NBA was about 50% Black. By the end of the 60's, the majority of players were Black. By the early 70's, the NBA was something like 75% Black.

The bottom line...basketball is a very simple game. Shooting, passing, dribbling, defense, and rebounding. Simple. It is so simple that it is played by pee-wee age kids.

Also, there are many examples of great short or less athletically-gifted players. Just as there are numerous examples of 7-3 clods, and James White-type busts.

Skills? Long-range shooting is better now than ever before, but you can't hold that against the players of the 60's and 70's...who played without a 3 pt line. How about this, though? The NBA shot FT's as well in the 58-59 season, as they did just last season.

Bill Sharman was shooting .932 from the FT line in the 50's. Gus Johnson was 6-6 230, and has a vertical that would equal MJ's, and was starring in the NBA in the 60's. Connie Hawkins dominated the ABA in the 60's, and was a star in the NBA in the 70's. Rick Barry averaged 35.6 ppg in the NBA in '67, and then 30.6 ppg in the NBA in '75. In between, he averaged 31.5 ppg in the ABA.

Watch this footage of Pistol, who played college ball as far back as '67-68.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ

Watch this footage of a high school Kareem in the mid-60's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfkalgtZraE

The 6-9 Bob McAdoo was Kevin Durant in the 70's (no, not quite the range, but easily 20+ feet.) Watch footage of Dr. J...who was playing college ball in the 60's.

Watch footage of Zach Randolph, and then Willis Reed. Could be the same player. Same with Kevin Love and Jerry Lucas.

Some 15 years ago, Shaq terrorized the NBA. Skills? Yes, he had excellent footwork, and explosiveness, but in terms of skills, athleticism, and strength...Wilt was taller, longer, faster, more athletic, stronger, and considerably more skilled.

Watch this footage...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

In it you will see a younger Wilt hitting jump shots from 15+ feet, turnaround jump shots from 12+ ft, and a steady array of bank shots from 12+ feet.

And how about this...

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html

Carl Braun said "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70

Height? Today's NBA is littered with centers, who in actuality, are no taller than Bill Russell. Demarcus Cousins, DeAndre Jordan, Dwight Howard, and Andre Drummond... all 6-9 1/2. And Jordan and Drummond can't shoot from 5 feet, either.

Kevin Love ran away with a rpg title a few years ago, and then had a 26-12 season a couple of years ago...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7TnbhJr8iY

Ricky Rubio is a starter in today's NBA, and shoots no better than Bob Cousy (Rubio is a career .368 shooter)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=993UTozPECc

Just a few years ago Chuck Hayes, who is actually 6-5 1/2, was a starting center in the NBA in 80 games in a season.

Ben Wallace won back-to-back rpg and DPOY awards...all as a 6-7 center (nowhere near the 6-9 he was listed at.)

A peak Kareem played 34 career games against a full-time Thurmond. He had five games of 30+, with a high game of 34 points. He also shot .447 in his career against Nate.

A 38-39 year old Kareem battled a young Hakeem in 10 straight H2H's in their 84-85 and 85-86 seasons. And he AVERAGED 32 ppg on a .630 FG% in those 10 games. SIX of which were 30+, which included games of 40, 43, and 46 (on .700 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.) Hell, a 40 year old faced a 24 year old Hakeem in 4 H2H's, and outscored him, 18.8 ppg to 16.4 ppg, and outshot him .567 to .403.

Then, think about this: A peak Shaq's career high game against Olajuwon came in their '99 playoff H2H, and against a fading Hakeem ... 37 points.

Continued...

LAZERUSS

09-19-2016, 01:46 AM

Continued...

As for Wilt. Had 20 straight H2H games against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy (actually Marty Blake claimed that Bellamy was 7-0)...in which he AVERAGED 48.2 ppg...which included three games of 60+, with a high of 73. He was still hanging 50 point games on him in the mid-60's.

A prime Chamberlain battled a prime-to-peak Thurmond in 13 H2H games from the end of '65 to the beginning of '67. SIX games of 30+, with beatdowns by margins of 38-15 and even 45-13.

A prime Chamberlain battled Willis Reed in 12 H2H's in their 64-65 season. Averaged 38.6 ppg on a .532 FG%, which included carpet-bombings by margins of 46-25, 41-9, 52-23, and 58-28. Even as late as their 68-69 season, Wilt outscored Reed in their H2H's, 28.0 to 20.0 ppg, and outshot him .688 to .459.

Everyone knows about a prime "scoring" Chamberlain. But even from his '66-67, '67-68, and '68-69 seasons, he hung the NBA season high scoring games (58, 68, and 66...with another 60 point game as well.) Then, there was Wilt, at age 32, and in his 11th season. His new coach, Joe Mullaney, asked him to become the focal point of the Lakers offense at the beginning of their 69-70 season. Chamberlain was leading the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg, on a .579 FG%, and with 20.6 rpg...after the first nine games. Unfortunately, in that ninth game, he shredded his knee.

Oh, and how about this in that 69-70 season. Wilt blew out his knee in that ninth game, after having scored 33 points, and in only 28 minutes (and on 13-14 from the floor.) He was on pace for an easy 40+ point game, and in fact, was on pace for a 50 point game. Let's assume that he didn't injure the knee in that game, and did, in fact, hang 50 points. He would have stood at 34.0 ppg (on a .579 FG%, and with 20.6+ rpg.)

Why is that significant? Kareem was rookie that year, and averaged 28.8 ppg. on a .518 FG%, and with 14.5 rpg. Just two years later, a peak Kareem would put up his greatest regular season of his career... 34.8 ppg, on a .574 FG%, and with 16.6 rpg. And here was a 32-33 year old Wilt on pace for a 34.0 ppg, .579 FG%, and 20.6 rpg season.

BTW, a 36 year old Wilt, in his last season, battled HOFer Bob Lanier in six H2H games. Chamberlain averaged 19.8 ppg on a .750 FG%, while holding Lanier to a .374 FG%. In fact, in his last 11 H2H's with Lanier, Chamberlain averaged 24 ppg on a .730 FG%.

Oh, and in the very last game of his entire career, and against HOFer Willis Reed... 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds.

AirFederer

09-19-2016, 07:03 AM

Continued...

La Frescobaldi

09-19-2016, 10:21 PM

aj1987

09-19-2016, 10:24 PM

Once again with the classic "it was his teammates and coachesss!!!1" excuse. It was never the mental midgets fault.

Just sad.

La Frescobaldi

09-19-2016, 10:38 PM

Once again with the classic "it was his teammates and coachesss!!!1" excuse. It was never the mental midgets fault.

Just sad.

Was it Wade's fault when James choked? Was it James fault when Wade's body broke down a couple years later?

What about Paul Pierce? Was it his fault Andrew Bynum jumped on Kendrick Perkins' back and broke Perk's knee in Game 6 of the 2010 Finals?

Not worth responding to, tbh, but those are just some examples that make your post worthless right away.

NBAGOAT

09-19-2016, 11:27 PM

Was it Wade's fault when James choked? Was it James fault when Wade's body broke down a couple years later?

What about Paul Pierce? Was it his fault Andrew Bynum jumped on Kendrick Perkins' back and broke Perk's knee in Game 6 of the 2010 Finals?

Not worth responding to, tbh, but those are just some examples that make your post worthless right away.

but you must concede Wilt has bad playoff years on his resume, years where he was James 11 or even not super impactful because of injuries like Wade. It's not a big deal since every all time great besides maybe MJ has multiple black marks.

aj1987

09-20-2016, 01:48 AM

Was it Wade's fault when James choked? Was it James fault when Wade's body broke down a couple years later?

What about Paul Pierce? Was it his fault Andrew Bynum jumped on Kendrick Perkins' back and broke Perk's knee in Game 6 of the 2010 Finals?

Not worth responding to, tbh, but those are just some examples that make your post worthless right away.
Do you see me calling Wade a top 15 or a top 10 player of all time? Whose fault was it in '69, when West averaged 39/5/7 on 49%?

La Frescobaldi

09-20-2016, 01:57 AM

but you must concede Wilt has bad playoff years on his resume, years where he was James 11 or even not super impactful because of injuries like Wade. It's not a big deal since every all time great besides maybe MJ has multiple black marks.

i don't believe i've ever seen any player do what james did in 2011; that was pretty much unprecedented. Certainly not Wilt Chamberlain.

MJ doesn't get out of it either. He quite validly has the 'multiple black marks' of 1-9.

The only guy who doesn't have 'multiple black marks' would be Bill Russell but his teams definitely painted over his numerous chokes which are now forgotten to the point that many people believe he never choked. Well he did, so often that you could almost say continuously.

Sam Jones had at least 6 Ray Allen-level saves in his career at Boston. Each one of those bailed Russell out of a 'choking season.'
Havlicek had quite a few of them too.

Duncan21formvp

09-20-2016, 08:57 PM

Wilt Chamberlain more scoring titles.

Lebron23

09-20-2016, 08:59 PM

In the NBA Finals, and in the playoffs LeBron.

bizil

09-21-2016, 06:52 PM

When it comes to scoring, Wilt, MJ, and Kareem are the best of all time in their own ways. Wilt with all those mythical single season scoring numbers, MJ with the most scoring titles, and Cap with the all time career scoring record. So I'm going with The Stilt on this one.

But among PASS FIRST PLAYERS, Bron and Big O are the best scorers of all time. The fact that Bron can rack up 30 points a night and win a scoring title with his style of play is VERY RARE in league history.

LAZERUSS

09-21-2016, 09:31 PM

but you must concede Wilt has bad playoff years on his resume, years where he was James 11 or even not super impactful because of injuries like Wade. It's not a big deal since every all time great besides maybe MJ has multiple black marks.

What is your definition of "bad?"

Leading both teams in rebounding in every playoff series? Often by staggering margins?

Holding his opposing HOF centers to WAY below their normal efficiencies?

Putting up "must win" games, on average, of 31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-seasons in which the league average was .435)?

Putting up game seven's in his post-season career, on average, of 24.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, and the highest FG% by a GOAT in game seven playoff history of .626...all while outscoring and outrebounding his opposing centers in EVERY one of those game seven's (often by a huge margins)?

And the "bashers" point out his '69 Finals, as if he played that way in EVERY series. BTW, he STILL dominated the glass in that series, and easily outplayed a Top-5 GOAT in that series....which included a game seven of 18 pts, on 7-8 from the field (and a game high TS% of .621), with 27 rebounds, and 10 blocked shots...while holding Russell to 6 pts, on 2-7 shooting (and a .333 TS%), with 21 rebounds.

Furthermore, the "bashers" never researched the '69 Finals, either. First of all, his COACH asked Chamberlain to play the high post. Think about that...do you think Phil Jackson would have had a prime Shaq playing the high post?

How incompetent was his COACH? He made the famous comment... "When we pass the ball into Wilt, he will score. But, it is an ugly offense to watch."

So Van Breda Kolff had Wilt playing the high post, so that Elgin Baylor could roam the baseline. How did that work out? Baylor shot a team worst .385 in the post-season. And in the Finals, he put up three games, all in close losses, of 4-18 FG/FGA, 2-14 FG/FGA (and 1-6 from the line...in a one point loss), and a game seven of 8-22 FG/FGA (in a two point loss.)

Oh, and guess where Wilt was in the last five minutes of that game seven loss? Yep...firmly planted on the bench. By a coach who would rather lose a game seven without him, than win a ring with him.

The reality was, Chamberlain never played a "bad" post-season series in his entire career.

And while Lebron was two separate shots away, by teammates, from being "1-7", Chamberlain was two separate turnovers away, by teammates, from being "4-6."

Psileas

09-22-2016, 09:06 AM

What is your definition of "bad?"

Leading both teams in rebounding in every playoff series? Often by staggering margins?

Holding his opposing HOF centers to WAY below their normal efficiencies?

Putting up "must win" games, on average, of 31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-seasons in which the league average was .435)?

Putting up game seven's in his post-season career, on average, of 24.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, and the highest FG% by a GOAT in game seven playoff history of .626...all while outscoring and outrebounding his opposing centers in EVERY one of those game seven's (often by a huge margins)?

And the "bashers" point out his '69 Finals, as if he played that way in EVERY series. BTW, he STILL dominated the glass in that series, and easily outplayed a Top-5 GOAT in that series....which included a game seven of 18 pts, on 7-8 from the field (and a game high TS% of .621), with 27 rebounds, and 10 blocked shots...while holding Russell to 6 pts, on 2-7 shooting (and a .333 TS%), with 21 rebounds.

Furthermore, the "bashers" never researched the '69 Finals, either. First of all, his COACH asked Chamberlain to play the high post. Think about that...do you think Phil Jackson would have had a prime Shaq playing the high post?

How incompetent was his COACH? He made the famous comment... "When we pass the ball into Wilt, he will score. But, it is an ugly offense to watch."

So Van Breda Kolff had Wilt playing the high post, so that Elgin Baylor could roam the baseline. How did that work out? Baylor shot a team worst .385 in the post-season. And in the Finals, he put up three games, all in close losses, of 4-18 FG/FGA, 2-14 FG/FGA (and 1-6 from the line...in a one point loss), and a game seven of 8-22 FG/FGA (in a two point loss.)

Oh, and guess where Wilt was in the last five minutes of that game seven loss? Yep...firmly planted on the bench. By a coach who would rather lose a game seven without him, than win a ring with him.

The reality was, Chamberlain never played a "bad" post-season series in his entire career.

And while Lebron was two separate shots away, by teammates, from being "1-7", Chamberlain was two separate turnovers away, by teammates, from being "4-6."

Not only did Wilt exceed his playoff numbers when a situation was urgent, he actually exceeded his (so "loved" by Wilt haters) regular season numbers, as well, despite facing all those all-time legends series after series. :eek:
You would expect from a choker to typically lose his will and power when a playoff series is closing to determining a winner, especially when his team is on the brink of elimination, not pick up speed.