LeBron is might be better now than ever before ...

[CTbasketball92]

LeBrob's last peak year was technically 2014, but honestly, I don't think other versions of him are capable of his 2015 and 2016 finals. This LeBron is more resolute than the others. He's not afraid of being a chucked to win games anymore, and in retrospect, had he played this way instead of how he did against Dallas in 2011 and the Spurs in 2014, he might've won both times. I guess that "mentally tough" idea had more merit than I thought it did in the past. He's still top 3 ever though.

[Kool Boy]

LeBron is so good, I'm glad I'm a witness

[Screamin A Smit]

Wade was already aggressive in the 2011 Finals, therefore LeBron did the correct thing by playing passive and working on his all-round game.



You can't have two players playing aggressive in a Finals series, thats a recipe for disaster, ala 2004 Shaq and Kobe



And 2014 LeBron had no help, he was still aggressive and attacking in Game 2, the 1st quarter of Games 3 and 5 (when the games were still close)


So dont know why you're referring to his 2014 Finals, dude had no help :confusedshrug:

[CTbasketball92]

Wade was already aggressive in the 2011 Finals, therefore LeBron did the correct thing by playing passive and working on his all-round game.



You can't have two players playing aggressive in a Finals series, thats a recipe for disaster, ala 2004 Shaq and Kobe



And 2014 LeBron had no help, he was still aggressive and attacking in Game 2, the 1st quarter of Games 3 and 5 (when the games were still close)


So dont know why you're referring to his 2014 Finals, dude had no help :confusedshrug:

I don't blame him for the 2014 finals loss, but I do think he should be averaging 35 ppg in a losing effort if he's shooting 57% from the field. Maybe it was the illusion that he did sort of have help with DWade and chris bosh, even though they disappeared, so he kept trying to pass it. It also seemed like the spurs would build such big leads, there wasn't even a point anymore. Either way, it just "feels" like the Cavs would've had a better chance because, look what they did when Kyrie and Love were out in 2015? Not scientific at all. Just a feeling. 2011 though? nah, i think he should've shot more. What separates LeBron from Draymond Green and Andre Iguodala is that he;s a superstar scorer, which in my mind, what separates a really good player from a superstar, or the superstars from the GOAT tier players. LeBron needed to play more recklessly or something. He just didnt have a jumper or a post game, so he couldnt.

[egokiller]

LeBrob's last peak year was technically 2014, but honestly, I don't think other versions of him are capable of his 2015 and 2016 finals. This LeBron is more resolute than the others. He's not afraid of being a chucked to win games anymore, and in retrospect, had he played this way instead of how he did against Dallas in 2011 and the Spurs in 2014, he might've won both times. I guess that "mentally tough" idea had more merit than I thought it did in the past. He's still top 3 ever though.

It's not the first negative statement made about lebron that you didn't think had merit when it was said and it certainly won't be the last.

You can't be top 3 after what happened in 2011. People need to stop pretending that:

-2011 didn't happen
-Lebron played in the more difficult conference
-Lebron didn't play on the best team in his conference for all his finals appearances
-3/7 isn't as bad as it sounds when discussing top 3 all time

[Da_Realist]

Lebron's 2015 NBA Finals is so overrated. Typical. He dominated every possession so of course he posted high numbers in everything. It was the perfect setup for him. Once Kyrie went down there was no pressure on him because no one expected him to win. So he could rack up stats to distract his people from remembering he shot 20% from the floor.

[warriorfan]

Lebron's 2015 NBA Finals is so overrated. Typical. He dominated every possession so of course he posted high numbers in everything. It was the perfect setup for him. Once Kyrie went down there was no pressure on him because no one expected him to win. So he could rack up stats to distract his people from remembering he shot 20% from the floor.

That was the definition of empty stats.

[AintNoSunshine]

Wade was already aggressive in the 2011 Finals, therefore LeBron did the correct thing by playing passive and working on his all-round game.



You can't have two players playing aggressive in a Finals series, thats a recipe for disaster, ala 2004 Shaq and Kobe



And 2014 LeBron had no help, he was still aggressive and attacking in Game 2, the 1st quarter of Games 3 and 5 (when the games were still close)


So dont know why you're referring to his 2014 Finals, dude had no help :confusedshrug:
This is so fking stupid

[LostCause]

If Bron played like he did in ANY Finals outside of 2007 in 2011 they would've won the ring. If he just played like he did in prior series, they would've won the ring

That said, I think he was far more driven this time around than in others due to the weight of winning for his hometown. He has very clearly declined physically and the mileage shows, but he's still a top athlete in the world and when locked in he's unstoppable. I don't believe he did anything this time that he COULDN'T do in prior years, just that he was more driven to do so

[TheWinningFam]

It's not the first negative statement made about lebron that you didn't think had merit when it was said and it certainly won't be the last.

You can't be top 3 after what happened in 2011. People need to stop pretending that:

-2011 didn't happen
-Lebron played in the more difficult conference
-Lebron didn't play on the best team in his conference for all his finals appearances
-3/7 isn't as bad as it sounds when discussing top 3 all time

-Nobody cares, the only people who constantly bring it up is lebron haters.
-How is that lebrons fault? thats the east's fault for not getting better, he just dominates.
-And jordan/kareem other top 5s didn't play on the best team in his conference for there finals appearances? , Lebron makes every team stacked apparently.
-Its like saying jordan isn't top 5 because 1-9 , when you look at shit into context you will understand.
-

[SamuraiSWISH]

Lebron's 2015 NBA Finals is so overrated. Typical. He dominated every possession so of course he posted high numbers in everything. It was the perfect setup for him. Once Kyrie went down there was no pressure on him because no one expected him to win. So he could rack up stats to distract his people from remembering he shot 20% from the floor.
On one hand I agree.

But it's not the perfect set up considering he likely wouldn't win without Kyrie or Love. Let a lone both being out.

This season was the perfect set up, especially narratively after GS won 73 games and was overwhelming favorites. Particularly after the first 2 games. And Bron had both of his 2 next best players still along side him, while note being expected to win under any circumstances.

As for 2015?

Stealing two games from a 67 win team with Mozgov, and Delladova as your next best players, on some quality performances is nothing to sneeze at ... I agree if he was more clutch and/or shot better, they could've won game 1 in regulation. Kyrie never gets hurt and anything can happen from then on in terms of series out come.

But, even sans the pressure of expectation when Kyrie went down, what he did was still impressive. And IMO should've been Finals MVP regardless.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's not the first negative statement made about lebron that you didn't think had merit when it was said and it certainly won't be the last.

You can't be top 3 after what happened in 2011. People need to stop pretending that:

-2011 didn't happen
-Lebron played in the more difficult conference
-Lebron didn't play on the best team in his conference for all his finals appearances
-3/7 isn't as bad as it sounds when discussing top 3 all time

I'm pretty sure that was the case for the majority of every all time greats Finals appearances. You're telling me Jordan, Russell, Magic, Kobe etc. weren't on their conferences best team every time they made the Finals?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Removing Jordan ... within conference

'91 Pistons

'92 Knicks, '92 Cavs
'93 Hawks, '93 Cavs, '93 Knicks

'94 Knicks, '94 Pacers
'95 Pacers, '95 Magic

'96 Magic
'97 Bullets, '97 Hawks, '97 Heat
'98 Hornets, '98 Pacers

would, and could all beat Chicago without MJ.

So no he wasn't always on the best team or most talented roster outside of himself.

[SouBeachTalents]

Removing Jordan ... within conference

'92 Knicks, '92 Cavs
'93 Hawks, '93 Cavs, '93 Knicks

'94 Knicks, '94 Pacers
'95 Pacers, '95 Magic

'96 Magic
'97 Bullets, '97 Hawks, '97 Heat
'98 Hornets, '98 Pacers

would, and could all beat Chicago without MJ.

So no he wasn't always on the best team or most talented roster outside of himself.

Ok, you could do the same shit for LeBron's team the last 3 seasons. You could even include 2013 considering how awful Wade/Bosh were in the playoffs, and 2012 with Bosh missing almost two series

[RedBlackAttack]

On one hand I agree.

But it's not the perfect set up considering he likely wouldn't win without Kyrie or Love. Let a lone both being out.

This season was the perfect set up, especially narratively after GS won 73 games and was overwhelming favorites. Particularly after the first 2 games. And Bron had both of his 2 next best players still along side him, while note being expected to win under any circumstances.

As for 2015?

Stealing two games from a 67 win team with Mozgov, and Delladova as your next best players, on some quality performances is nothing to sneeze at ... I agree if he was more clutch and/or shot better, they could've won game 1 in regulation. Kyrie never gets hurt and anything can happen from then on in terms of series out come.

But, even sans the pressure of expectation when Kyrie went down, what he did was still impressive. And IMO should've been Finals MVP regardless.
I would argue Tristan Thompson was our second best player in last year's Finals for all of the problems he gave the Warriors with his energy and defense, but I agree that winning two games without Kyrie and Love was an accomplishment.

The Cavs were a deeper team in 2016 and actually were better set up to deal with injuries, interestingly enough. In 2015, the team had sort of been cobbled together quickly in the offseason and at the deadline. In 2016, we had upgraded from Marion to Jefferson, and added Channing Frye and Mo Williams.

People think back to the 2015 Finals and it feels like the Cavs were up 2-1 and then it was all Warriors, but the games were actually close in the last three for the most part. In Game 5 with the series tied 2-2, the Warriors were clinging to an 85-84 lead with 4 minutes left in the game. It was within 4-7 points right down to the last 20 seconds when the Cavs were forced to foul and the lead became a little misleading.

Hell, even in the series-clinching Game 6, it was just a 6 point lead with about a minute left in the game.

It's pretty amazing that, basically playing with a 6-man rotation, James and the other five guys left in the rotation were able to play the Warriors so closely.


That's why I never really understood why the Cavs were being so disrespected in the lead-up to the 2016 Finals. Not only were Kyrie and Love healthy, but the team was deeper and just better, all the way around. To be fair, the Warriors were better too, but people put a little too much stock in the Christmas Day massacre.

The Cavs were dealing with internal problems that obviously came to a head with Blatt being fired a couple weeks later.

That series was always going to end up being close as long as both teams stayed relatively healthy.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Ok, you could do the same shit for LeBron's team the last 3 seasons. You could even include 2013 considering how awful Wade/Bosh were in the playoffs, and 2012 with Bosh missing almost two series
Not this year. Cavs without LeBron in this year's East could still get to the Finals.

Without LeBron ...

Miami could still get to the Finals in 2011. Would just be a much greater struggle against Boston and Chicago.

2012, with no Bosh or LeBron, Wade can't even get past that rather loaded for a low seed New York Knicks team.

And in 2013 would've went down to the wire against Indiana, but they still could've potentially got there.

[Dray n Klay]

Not this year. Cavs without LeBron in this year's East could still get to the Finals.

Without LeBron ...

Miami could still get to the Finals in 2011. Would just be a much greater struggle against Boston and Chicago.

2012, with no Bosh or LeBron, Wade can't even get past that rather loaded for a low seed New York Knicks team.

And in 2013 would've went down to the wire against Indiana, but they still could've potentially got there.


Explain how the Cavs beat Toronto :roll: :roll:






The Cavs are easily a lottery team without lebron, look at their record without him

[Segatti]

Not this year. Cavs without LeBron in this year's East could still get to the Finals.

Without LeBron ...

Miami could still get to the Finals in 2011. Would just be a much greater struggle against Boston and Chicago.

2012, with no Bosh or LeBron, Wade can't even get past that rather loaded for a low seed New York Knicks team.

And in 2013 would've went down to the wire against Indiana, but they still could've potentially got there.

What? Cavs without Lebron is a lottery team.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Love isn't reduced to spot up shooter.

You're on rocks if you don't think

G - Kyrie
G - Shumpert
F - JR Smith
F - Love
C - TT

Isn't good enough to beat Toronto in seven ish games ... in this year's hideously weak league, in an even worse conference.

[Screamin A Smit]

Love isn't reduced to spot up shooter.

You're on rocks if you don't think

G - Kyrie
G - Shumpert
F - JR Smith
F - Love
C - TT

Isn't good enough to beat Toronto in seven ish games ... in this year's hideously weak league, in an even worse conference.


That exact lineup is 2-13 in the games LeBron doesnt play :confusedshrug:

[Da_Realist]

On one hand I agree.

But it's not the perfect set up considering he likely wouldn't win without Kyrie or Love. Let a lone both being out.

This season was the perfect set up, especially narratively after GS won 73 games and was overwhelming favorites. Particularly after the first 2 games. And Bron had both of his 2 next best players still along side him, while note being expected to win under any circumstances.

As for 2015?

Stealing two games from a 67 win team with Mozgov, and Delladova as your next best players, on some quality performances is nothing to sneeze at ... I agree if he was more clutch and/or shot better, they could've won game 1 in regulation. Kyrie never gets hurt and anything can happen from then on in terms of series out come.

But, even sans the pressure of expectation when Kyrie went down, what he did was still impressive. And IMO should've been Finals MVP regardless.

Looks good on paper (if you ignore fg%). Different story actually watching the games.

[SamuraiSWISH]

That exact lineup is 2-13 in the games LeBron doesnt play :confusedshrug:
Small sample size, with unclear roles without their best player.

In a whole season, they'd have more time and opportunity to gel. 15 games and you're not even at Christmas during the actual season.

:facepalm

[Screamin A Smit]

Small sample size, with unclear roles without their best player.

In a whole season, they'd have more time and opportunity to gel. 15 games and you're not even at Christmas during the actual season.

:facepalm


All those players were in the lottery before LeBron joined them :confusedshrug:


None of them have a track record of success without LeBron

[SamuraiSWISH]

All those players were in the lottery before LeBron joined them :confusedshrug:


None of them have a track record of success without LeBron
All those players were super young or on terrible franchises without ,ugh surrounding talent as well. I'm not saying it doesn't take LeBron's leadership to make them great. Get off the defensive of your man crush. What I am saying is in this hideously weak league last year, in an even worse conference, that team without LeBron given a full chance to gel could go anywhere in the conference.

[RedBlackAttack]

All those players were super young or on terrible franchises without ,ugh surrounding talent as well. I'm not saying it doesn't take LeBron's leadership to make them great. Get off the defensive of your man crush. What I am saying is in this hideously weak league last year, in an even worse conference, that team without LeBron given a full chance to gel could go anywhere in the conference.
You're wasting keystrokes. Ignore the morons/trolls.

[CTbasketball92]

Explain how the Cavs beat Toronto :roll: :roll:






The Cavs are easily a lottery team without lebron, look at their record without him

It feels odd to use the 2013-2014 Cavs record of 33 wins as a positive, but I'm going to do it. Those Cavs won 33 games with Kyrie as a 21-year-old and dion waiters as the second best player. With Kyrie being a good bit better than he was then and the Cavs having a very good 2nd-3rd option player in Kevin Love and a pretty solid J.R. Smith, I think this Cavs team could definitely win 48+ games. Just give them a bit of time to adjust without LeBron and they easily make the playoffs, and could definitely still get to the ECF, though they'd prob. lose to the Pacers now, and the raptors would also make it close.

[Screamin A Smit]

All those players were super young or on terrible franchises without ,ugh surrounding talent as well. I'm not saying it doesn't take LeBron's leadership to make them great. Get off the defensive of your man crush. What I am saying is in this hideously weak league last year, in an even worse conference, that team without LeBron given a full chance to gel could go anywhere in the conference.

I have a question, will they do as good without LeBron as they did with LeBron?




Like the 94 Bulls won the same amount of games with MJ as without :confusedshrug:

[RedBlackAttack]

It feels odd to use the 2013-2014 Cavs record of 33 wins as a positive, but I'm going to do it. Those Cavs won 33 games with Kyrie as a 21-year-old and dion waiters as the second best player. With Kyrie being a good bit better than he was then and the Cavs having a very good 2nd-3rd option player in Kevin Love and a pretty solid J.R. Smith, I think this Cavs team could definitely win 48+ games. Just give them a bit of time to adjust without LeBron and they easily make the playoffs, and could definitely still get to the ECF, though they'd prob. lose to the Pacers now, and the raptors would also make it close.
Keep in mind that they were close to signing Gordon Hayward in the 2014 offseason before James made it known that he was interested in coming back to Cleveland. So, instead of starting Alonzo Gee or Earl Clark at SF like they did to start the 2013 and 2014 seasons, respectively, it was about to become a really good player either way.

The team that you build around LeBron James is completely different than any other roster in the league. It has to be due to the uniqueness of his skillset and, when he is out of the lineup, there isn't anyone who can replicate what he does to make the team go.

That doesn't mean everyone else on the team would be incapable of winning in a different situation with a roster more suited for them to be the #1 option.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I have a question, will they do as good without LeBron as they did with LeBron?




Like the 94 Bulls won the same amount of games with MJ as without :confusedshrug:
The '94 Bulls were a better upgraded and different roster. Yet still won less games. So, you don't even have your facts together.

Did they win a championship like they did with Jordan, or did they lose in the 2nd round of the playoffs?

'94 Bulls are very similar to this year's Miami team. They got to the second round and lost too. Only the Heat did this without their second best player of the LeBron era Miami Heat. It would be like Chicago not having Grant and still getting to the 2nd round.

If Wade and then LeBron era Heat roster had Bosh this year, they could possibly even make the Finals.

:D

No one is saying they'd do as well without the best player in the game. What I am saying is that roster without LeBron can advance in the east, and even possibly given enough gel time, is talented enough to beat the all mighty Kyle Lowry / Demar Derozen Raptors.

:oldlol:

[CTbasketball92]

Keep in mind that they were close to signing Gordon Hayward in the 2014 offseason before James made it known that he was interested in coming back to Cleveland. So, instead of starting Alonzo Gee or Earl Clark at SF like they did to start the 2013 and 2014 seasons, respectively, it was about to become a really good player either way.

The team that you build around LeBron James is completely different than any other roster in the league. It has to be due to the uniqueness of his skillset and, when he is out of the lineup, there isn't anyone who can replicate what he does to make the team go.

That doesn't mean everyone else on the team would be incapable of winning in a different situation with a roster more suited for them to be the #1 option.

VERY true, and I've actually said that before, that's why, I think, losing LeBron is so devastating. LeBron is essentially an all star PG/SG/SF/PF, so you don't need to get an andre iguodala, or a really good backup pg or a very good other perimeter player. You just get good knockdown shooters, and maybe a solid defender or two. So if LeBron were to leave, they'd definitely have to fill in. The question is: who would those players be?

[LostCause]

I have a question, will they do as good without LeBron as they did with LeBron?




Like the 94 Bulls won the same amount of games with MJ as without :confusedshrug:

Those Bulls added Kukoc, Kerr and Wennington losing no one of note aside the man himself. Let's plug in similar players to the Cavs

Kukoc had a PER of 15.9 his rookie year (Jumped to 19, then 20 and 20 again the 3 seasons after that to put his talent into perspective). TS% of .497, then jumped to .575 and stayed above .550 during the span listed above). Lets just say Chandler Parsons = Kukoc, although Kukoc had better numbers pretty much across the board it's hard to find a good match for him

Kerr = Doug McDermott. Wennington = Trevor Booker.

So adding Parsons, McDermott and Booker to

Kyrie
Shumpert
Smith
Love
Thompson
Dellevadova
Jefferson
Mozgov
Williams
etc

Can't win 50+ games?

(Most of them were quick player matches, if anyone has any better ones feel free)

A lineup of
Kyrie
McDermott
Parsons
Love
Thompson

Looks dangerous to me

[CTbasketball92]

Those Bulls added Kukoc, Kerr and Wennington losing no one of note aside the man himself. Let's plug in similar players to the Cavs

Kukoc had a PER of 15.9 his rookie year (Jumped to 19, then 20 and 20 again the 3 seasons after that to put his talent into perspective). TS% of .497, then jumped to .575 and stayed above .550 during the span listed above). Lets just say Chandler Parsons = Kukoc, although Kukoc had better numbers pretty much across the board it's hard to find a good match for him

Kerr = Doug McDermott. Wennington = Trevor Booker.

So adding Parsons, McDermott and Booker to

Kyrie
Shumpert
Smith
Love
Thompson
Dellevadova
Jefferson
Mozgov
Williams
etc

Can't win 50+ games?

(Most of them were quick player matches, if anyone has any better ones feel free)

A lineup of
Kyrie
McDermott
Parsons
Love
Thompson

Looks dangerous to me

That looks pretty good to me. I'd love to see how that team would perform. Wonder what the stats would look like.

[JebronLames]

Not this year. Cavs without LeBron in this year's East could still get to the Finals.

Without LeBron ...

Miami could still get to the Finals in 2011. Would just be a much greater struggle against Boston and Chicago.

2012, with no Bosh or LeBron, Wade can't even get past that rather loaded for a low seed New York Knicks team.

And in 2013 would've went down to the wire against Indiana, but they still could've potentially got there.
Cavs lose to the Pistons, Hawks, and raptors without LeBron

Heat lose to the Celtics, Bulls in 2011 without LeBron

Heat get destroyed by the pacers in 2013 without LeBron.

I can't believe you're actually serious. Wow.

[RunWithThePack3]

Im new to the forum. Very glad to see there are intelligent basketball fans here that actually realize how lucky we are to witness this dude play the game we love at such a d*mn high level.

Full disclosure: I'm not a huge lebron guy by any means. Not even close to one of my personal favorite players in the league. But his talent and dominance is unmatched.

[Hey Yo]

Lebron's 2015 NBA Finals is so overrated. Typical. He dominated every possession so of course he posted high numbers in everything. It was the perfect setup for him. Once Kyrie went down there was no pressure on him because no one expected him to win. So he could rack up stats to distract his people from remembering he shot 20% from the floor.
Kind of sounds like MJ's situation in 1986, huh?

He wasn't expected to beat the Celtics and had no pressure, so why not shoot like crazy and rack up the stats??



Considering it was James' 5th straight Finals appearance and 4th straight postseason leading his team in MP, pts, rebounds and assists.....he could have easily done the opposite and mailed it in while just going through the motions.

Instead he lead his team to a 2-1 series lead, to only peter out as the series went on.

[Hey Yo]

Not this year. Cavs without LeBron in this year's East could still get to the Finals.

Without LeBron ...

Miami could still get to the Finals in 2011. Would just be a much greater struggle against Boston and Chicago.

2012, with no Bosh or LeBron, Wade can't even get past that rather loaded for a low seed New York Knicks team.

And in 2013 would've went down to the wire against Indiana, but they still could've potentially got there.
With Bibby and Joel Anthony still starting???

NO CHANCE of that happening. The so-called "super team" lost 24 games and was a 2 seed WITH James.

[egokiller]

Kind of sounds like MJ's situation in 1986, huh?

He wasn't expected to beat the Celtics and had no pressure, so why not shoot like crazy and rack up the stats??

Considering it was James' 5th straight Finals appearance and 4th straight postseason leading his team in MP, pts, rebounds and assists.....he could have easily done the opposite and mailed it in while just going through the motions.

Instead he lead his team to a 2-1 series lead, to only peter out as the series went on.

Actually MJ in 86 was nothing like Lebron in 2015. A 2nd year MJ shot 50.5% and scored 43.7 ppg in 3 games. A 12th year lebron shot 39.8% and scored 35.8 ppg in 6 games. No where close to MJ's averages.

[Hey Yo]

Actually MJ in 86 was nothing like Lebron in 2015. A 2nd year MJ shot 50.5% and scored 43.7 ppg in 3 games. A 12th year lebron shot 39.8% and scored 35.8 ppg in 6 games. No where close to MJ's averages.
You couldn't clearly see I was referring to their situations??

If not, get your GED, Chico.

[egokiller]

You couldn't clearly see I was referring to their situations??

If not, get your GED, Chico.

Cool story bro. You tried to pull something out of your ass to justify Lebron's high volume shooting on shitty efficiency and it didn't work. In fact, all you did was enable facts to be presented that made what MJ did as a 2nd year player all that more impressive.

[LostCause]

Cool story bro. You tried to pull something out of your ass to justify Lebron's high volume shooting on shitty efficiency and it didn't work. In fact, all you did was enable facts to be presented that made what MJ did as a 2nd year player all that more impressive.

Damn

[Hey Yo]

Cool story bro. You tried to pull something out of your ass to justify Lebron's high volume shooting on shitty efficiency and it didn't work. In fact, all you did was enable facts to be presented that made what MJ did as a 2nd year player all that more impressive.
Except for the part where LeBron's high volume shooting led to winning games and a series lead at one point.

MJ's volume shooting led to a 0-3 first round exit

[egokiller]

Except for the part where LeBron's high volume shooting led to winning games and a series lead at one point.

MJ's volume shooting led to a 0-3 first round exit

Why even bother to respond if all you are going to do is further make Lebron look bad? You aren't doing him any favors whatsoever every time you attempt to defend him.

Lebron shooting less ppg on lower efficiency results in winning 2 games, while MJ shooting more ppg on higher efficiency resulted in not winning a single game.

All that does is provide us with the evidence that Lebron had better teammates than what MJ had. That's the deciding factor as to why the Cavs were able to win 2 games.

Do you not understand that if you put MJ in Lebron's shoes on that Cavs team that MJ still shoots around 43 ppg on around 50% and the Cavs win the series?

All you are telling us is that a 12th year LeBron caused his team the loss while a 2nd year MJ on that team would have caused his team to win the entire series?

I think that is exactly what you are trying to say, so why not just come out and say it.

[LostCause]

Except for the part where LeBron's high volume shooting led to winning games and a series lead at one point.

MJ's volume shooting led to a 0-3 first round exit


Yeah this is a bad point overall

How does it make any sense in the world to say a guy who scores less and is inefficient is helping his team win through his high volume shooting whereas a guy who scores more and is way more efficient doesn't. I guarantee if you flip that and cite Lebron as the high efficiency guy and Kobe as the inefficient guy you absolutely won't support this idea

When you have a situation like that it's painfully obvious it points toward other factors resulting in the W's, not inferior high volume shooting is somehow more congruent to winning

[Da_Realist]

Kind of sounds like MJ's situation in 1986, huh?

He wasn't expected to beat the Celtics and had no pressure, so why not shoot like crazy and rack up the stats??



Considering it was James' 5th straight Finals appearance and 4th straight postseason leading his team in MP, pts, rebounds and assists.....he could have easily done the opposite and mailed it in while just going through the motions.

Instead he lead his team to a 2-1 series lead, to only peter out as the series went on.

Just watch the games. Numbers don't mean everything. Seeing a guy struggle to get his shot off against Iguodala in isolation and clanking shots to the tune of 31% is UGLY. I don't care how many rebounds he pulled in. Today's numbers-obsessed society exalts his 2015 Finals production but I think it's misleading. It was ugly basketball.

No one will ever watch the series and come away impressed unless they go to basketball-ref and see his numbers. MJ in 86 was impressive cause he balled his ass off against the best team ever. He did it against a great defensive player (DJ) and a great frontline that included a top 5 player playing at his absolute peak (Bird). It wasn't just iso, clank, iso, clank, iso, clank. It was real basketball.

The last 3 games of the 2016 Finals were great. 2015 is overrated.

[egokiller]

The last 3 games of the 2016 Finals were great.

I feel that this statement needs some context applied to it. Would not it have been better if GSW wasn't injured similar to how Cavs were injured in 2015? We've been cheated as viewers these last 2 finals, but a lebron fan will try and have one believe that GSW was 100% and that Cavs came back down from 3-1 against a team that was firing on all cylinders. This was not the case.

Curry and Iggy playing while injured, Bogut out after game 5, Dray suspended a game and unable to bounce back to normal form after it....

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/stephen-curry-golden-state-warriors-steve-kerr-finals-injury-lucky-cavaliers-lebron-james-081016

[Hey Yo]

Just watch the games. Numbers don't mean everything. Seeing a guy struggle to get his shot off against Iguodala in isolation and clanking shots to the tune of 31% is UGLY. I don't care how many rebounds he pulled in. Today's numbers-obsessed society exalts his 2015 Finals production but I think it's misleading. It was ugly basketball.

No one will ever watch the series and come away impressed unless they go to basketball-ref and see his numbers. MJ in 86 was impressive cause he balled his ass off against the best team ever. He did it against a great defensive player (DJ) and a great frontline that included a top 5 player playing at his absolute peak (Bird). It wasn't just iso, clank, iso, clank, iso, clank. It was real basketball.

The last 3 games of the 2016 Finals were great. 2015 is overrated.
LeBron got 4 FMVP votes representing the losing team. First time that's happened in 46yrs....no one will come away impressed???



btw......just the year prior, Iggy was NBA All-Defensive First Team (2014)

[warriorfan]

LeBron got 4 FMVP votes representing the losing team. First time that's happened in 46yrs....no one will come away impressed???



btw......just the year prior, Iggy was NBA All-Defensive First Team (2014)

Speaking of the year prior...

https://s31.postimg.io/d9ndpvc63/lebroncollude.jpg


And don't forget..


Kevin Love pre-LeBron put up 26/12.5/4.4/on 59% TS

Here is a list of players who have achieved that feat

https://s32.postimg.org/g9918d2pf/Kevin_Love_Ho_F.png
The only players who have ever managed to do it is Kevin Love and Prime Kareem Abdul Jabbar