Best Non-MJ Team of the 90s?

[BigKAT]

I know some of you might rush to say the Houston rockets, since they won two titles.

But I don't know if they were the best team. From what I've heard/the little I've seen they were mostly just uber clutch when it mattered + Hakeem playing his brains out.

I might be in the wrong.

I won't pick a candidate because I really don't know enough about the 90's, but I would love it if you guys could enlighten me.

[Smoke117]

The early 90s Blazers.

[LostCause]

I'd probably say Riley's Knicks, Hakeems Rockets or the Jazz, each of whom are ranked highly as some of the greatest teams of all time

[Jasper]

I'd probably say Riley's Knicks, Hakeems Rockets or the Jazz, each of whom are ranked highly as some of the greatest teams of all time
Knicks were a thorn in Bulls , but Jazz and Suns were an exceptional team.

[Milbuck]

93 Suns or 96 Sonics

[LostCause]

Actually I'd also like to throw Seattle in there. That team was powerful from about 93 - 98, and has some all-time great years in that range

[Bankaii]

The current Clippers, who aren't even a top 3 team in today's league, would be the 2nd best team of the 90s after the Bulls.

Says a lot about MJ's competition.

[Smoke117]

The current Clippers, who aren't even a top 3 team in today's league, would be the 2nd best team of the 90s after the Bulls.

Says a lot about MJ's competition.

yawn

[LostCause]

The current Clippers, who aren't even a top 3 team in today's league, would be the 2nd best team of the 90s after the Bulls.

Says a lot about MJ's competition.

By what measure exactly?

They fall way short of the Knicks, Jazz and Sonic teams of the 90s, just to name a few, by objective measures. In fact those teams rate higher than some of the recent championship teams

I guess you can say they'd be the 2nd best if you're a Blake Griffin fan, though

[3ball]

i'd go with the 93' Suns

statistically, they played the Bulls to a standstill in the Finals: both teams averaged 106.7 ppg with 113.0 ORtg and the series required game-winner to avoid Game 7

i believe those Suns beat the Knicks, 90-91' Pistons or 96' Sonics.

although the 98' Jazz probably beat the Suns, since they made the Finals by beating Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers, Duncan/Popovich 56-win Spurs, and Hakeem's Rockets

[BigKAT]

i'd go with the 93' Suns

statistically, they played the Bulls to a standstill in the Finals: both teams averaged 106.7 ppg with 113.0 ORtg and the series required game-winner to avoid Game 7

i believe those Suns beat the Knicks, 90-91' Pistons or 96' Sonics.

although the 98' Jazz probably beat the Suns, since they made the Finals by beating Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers, Duncan/Popovich 56-win Spurs, and Hakeem's Rockets

Any game in that Suns - Bulls series you recommend seeing?

[bizil]

If I had to choose ONE TEAM from a single season who could have given the Bulls their toughest test, it would be the Dream-Drexler Rockets team that won it all. So for that, I give them mad respect. In terms of body of work over the entire decade, it would be the Rockets because of the repeat or the Jazz powered behind the great longevity of Malone and Stockton.

[Bankaii]

yawn
Go suck a dick. No one cares for your spastic attitude.

By what measure exactly?

They fall way short of the Knicks, Jazz and Sonic teams of the 90s, just to name a few, by objective measures. In fact those teams rate higher than some of the recent championship teams

I guess you can say they'd be the 2nd best if you're a Blake Griffin fan, though
What objective measures are you using exactly.
Just from the "eye test" the Clippers are a better version of the Sonics.

[MrFonzworth]

Jerry Sloan's Utah Jazz. Stockton's indubitably the greatest PG of all time, would have 2 rings if it weren't for the Bulls.

[LostCause]

What objective measures are you using exactly.
Just from the "eye test" the Clippers are a better version of the Sonics.

Pace-adjusted Team statistics and SRS / Elo ratings

The Eye Test varies by the bearer of said eyes. SEA was much more dominant than LAC has been

[LostCause]

Any game in that Suns - Bulls series you recommend seeing?

Game 4 :applause:

[Da_Realist]

Game 4 :applause:

Game 2. MJ and Barkley going at it in a must win for Phoenix

[Da_Realist]

By the way, the answer is the Houston Rockets all day long.

[ClipperRevival]

1989-90 Pistons. They count right? Easily a top 10 team all time.

Also, the 1993 Suns, repeat Rockets, Jazz were strong for most of the decade, early 90's Knicks, early 90's Blazers, 1996 Sonics, mid-90's Magic and although not the best, at least on paper, the 1997-1999 Lakers were stacked with talent.

Gun to my head, outside of the Pistons, I would go with the 1993 Suns. It truly took a Herculean effort by MJ from preventing that team to win it all.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Before winning a ring? Bad Boy Pistons.

Competition they beat?

Early 90's Blazers
Riley Knicks
'93 Suns
Riley Heat
Mid 90's Magic
'96 Sonics
Late 90's Jazz

All were great competition. All of them 60+ win caliber teams, led by MVP players in their prime, actually playing at peak levels into June.

Unlike a lot of the Spurs teams LeBron either won or lost rings to ... or even the Warriors of the past couple seasons. With severe bed wetting from their franchise player.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Mid 90's Rockets are circumstantial, vulture champions.

If the '94 Knicks took them 7 games and were a John Starks choke job away from winning ... and yet that New York team still went 7 against the upgraded, MJ less, 1994 Bulls.

If Chicago had Mike, there is no way they lose to Houston in 1994.

With a whole season of Jordan there then 1995 could be an entirely different story as well. But I definitely think that '95 team was a more fearsome championship roster compared to '94.

[Smoke117]

Mid 90's Rockets are circumstantial, vulture champions.

If the '94 Knicks took them 7 games and were a John Starks choke job away from winning ... and yet that New York team still went 7 against the upgraded, MJ less, 1994 Bulls.

If Chicago had Mike, there is no way they lose to Houston in 1994.

With a whole season of Jordan there then 1995 could be an entirely different story as well. But I definitely think that '95 team was a more fearsome championship roster compared to '94.

I think most people are referring to 95...nobody who saw basketball in the 90s would say the 94 Rockets were one of the best teams of the 90s. Calling them vulture champions is a bit salty though, no? It's their fault that Jordan was a degenerate gambler who got his father killed and decided to hide out in minor league baseball for a season and a half?

[NBAGOAT]

why not 99 spurs? They had duncan and drob who was still playing at a high level. Not super dominant but I say they might actually have the best duo looking at just one year(Malone/Stockton are better but that's based a lot on career value). Also you have to technically include the 89-90 Pistons or 99-00 Lakers. Either of those teams win pretty easily.

[Smoke117]

why not 99 spurs? They had duncan and drob who was still playing at a high level. Not super dominant but I say they might actually have the best duo looking at just one year(Malone/Stockton are better but that's based a lot on career value). Also you have to technically include the 89-90 Pistons or 99-00 Lakers. Either of those teams win pretty easily.

Because that was only a half season...and the Spurs were one of the few teams actually getting together and practicing during the lockout so they had an advantage over most teams. That's without mentioning that the late 90s and early 2000s were really weak in general. (hence why I find the 2001 lakers so overrated)

[Round Mound]

96 Sonics!

[SamuraiSWISH]

Not salty at all. Just saying.

Of course the Bulls couldn't win a championship with Scottie Pippen as your best player.

He can't score enough. Everyone in Chicago at the time, as well as the basketball world knew this.

But with Jordan there, along with all the upgrades we got that season with Kukoc, Kerr, and Wennington ... it would be a younger, prime, or even peak version of the 72 - 10 team. Especially with all star years from BJ and Horace during contract seasons.

Chicago would clearly beat Houston.

1995 however would be much more difficult, especially without anyone competent at PF after losing Grant and before signing Rodman.

[Smoke117]

1995 however would be much more difficult, especially without anyone competent at PF after losing Grant and before signing Rodman.

They probably don't let him walk if MJ never retires. The Bulls had basically given up on the present and were shopping Pippen during the 94 offseason. It's pretty hard to defend not paying and resigning Grant if the Bulls were coming off 4 consecutive championships.

[G-train]

Lots of great teams.

Loved the 1995 Rockets.
Only won 47 games, but were phenomenal in the playoffs.

Loved the starting 5 of Smith, Elie, Drexler, Horry, Olajuwon.
No depth with basically Cassell and Chucky off the bench.

Post the Thorpe trade and once they canned Maxwell, things changed.

The '93 Suns probably take the cake tho.

[bdreason]

Outside of the '95 Rockets, I'd go with the '93 Suns or '96 Sonics.

[Bawkish]

Riley's Knicks & Heat teams deserved a mention

also Larry Bird's Pacers

[ClipperRevival]

Crazy thing about the late 80's/early 90's Suns is that BEFORE Barkley came on board in 1992-93, they were already a great team and had won 55, 54, 55 and 53 games leading up to 1992-93. Of course the 1992-93 Suns peaked at 62 wins with Barkley but they would've won a title in a lot of other years for sure.

[Dragonyeuw]

1995 however would be much more difficult, especially without anyone competent at PF after losing Grant and before signing Rodman.

Personally I think Houston beats the Bulls in 95 with a full season from MJ and no true PF( and assuming they somehow get past Orlando). Hard to say now, but that would be their 5th straight finals run ( plus making it to the conference finals in 90). Hard to say how much fatigue plays into it, but Hakeem was operating at a level in the post-season that you would have needed the best of MJ to overcome, like 93 finals level MJ. And I'd rate that Houston roster a little better than Chicago's once you get past MJ/Pip and Hakeem/Drexler. The biggest issue though, the wafer-thin front court for the Bulls.

[tmacattack33]

If the Rockets were better than team X when it mattered, then they were better than team X.

How could you possibly say differently?

LOL. Who cares if team X is better than them in the regular season.

I guess the mid to late 2000 Suns and Mavs are GOAT teams in your mind.

[iamgine]

I'd have to say '95 Rockets.

They swept an insanely good Shaq/Penny's Orlando Magic in the finals. That is a mind blowing achievement.

[ClipperRevival]

The 1994-95 Rockets probably had the GOAT playoff run ever when you consider their seed (6th seed, 47-35) and who they beat:

1st round - Jazz (3rd seed) 60-22 (Malone, Stockton)
2nd round - Suns (2nd seed) 59-23 (Barkley, KJ)
WCF - Spurs (1st seed) 62-20 (DRob)
Finals - Magic (1st seed) 57-25 (Shaq, Hardaway)

[ClipperRevival]

And Hakeem's two year playoff run from (1993-94 - 1994-95) is legendary stuff:

45 playoff games - 30.9 ppg, 27.2 PER, .526%, 10.7 rpg, 4.4 apg, 3.4 bpg, 1.5 spg

Talk about all-around, impact from the blocks to setting up teammates to steals to "the man" offensive dominance against some of the best centers ever in DRob, Ewing and Shaq.

[Dragonyeuw]

And Hakeem's two year playoff run from (1993-94 - 1994-95) is legendary stuff:

45 playoff games - 30.9 ppg, 27.2 PER, .526%, 10.7 rpg, 4.4 apg, 3.4 bpg, 1.5 spg

Talk about all-around, impact from the blocks to setting up teammates to steals to "the man" offensive dominance against some of the best centers ever in DRob, Ewing and Shaq.

Over half a season. Crazy stuff...

Edit; and that should say over half a season 'against playoff competition'.

[Smoke117]

And Hakeem's two year playoff run from (1993-94 - 1994-95) is legendary stuff:

45 playoff games - 30.9 ppg, 27.2 PER, .526%, 10.7 rpg, 4.4 apg, 3.4 bpg, 1.5 spg

Talk about all-around, impact from the blocks to setting up teammates to steals to "the man" offensive dominance against some of the best centers ever in DRob, Ewing and Shaq.

And some of these fools actually believe Duncan is greater...hilarious stuff. Duncan had more team success, but Hakeem is clearly a better and greater player on an individual level. How do you rank Duncan above Hakeem when in their primes he was an overall inferior offensive and defensive player? It makes zero sense.

[bukowski81]

And some of these fools actually believe Duncan is greater...hilarious stuff. Duncan had more team success, but Hakeem is clearly a better and greater player on an individual level. How do you rank Duncan above Hakeem when in their primes he was an overall inferior offensive and defensive player? It makes zero sense.

Duncan in his 2003 run, 24 games,

24.7 ppg, 15.4 rebounds, 5.3 ast, 3.3 blks, 0.6 steals, .529 fg% 28.4 PER

Compare that with any of Hakeem runs and it is AT LEAST comparable...

[bizil]

In terms of peak, I think one of the most UNDERRATED duos of all time is Dream-Drexler! When they linked up, Dream was at his peak. And peak wise, Dream is a top 10 player of all time. I think Clyde was past his peak BUT still very much in his prime. So getting a versatile HOF wing who could ALSO be an alpha dog gave Dream a teammate he never had before. Once u throw in the role players the Rockets had, it was THE TEAM most equipped to beat the Bulls in the 90's.

[Poetry]

Before winning a ring? Bad Boy Pistons.

Competition they beat?

Early 90's Blazers
Riley Knicks
'93 Suns
Riley Heat
Mid 90's Magic
'96 Sonics
Late 90's Jazz

All were great competition. All of them 60+ win caliber teams, led by MVP players in their prime, actually playing at peak levels into June.

Reggie's Pacers should also be up there. They made 6 conference finals appearances during Reggie's career.

[Poetry]

I think Clyde was past his peak BUT still very much in his prime.

Yeah, he was still top 10 in PER on the Rockets.

[JBSptfn]

The early 90s Blazers.

True dat. The 91 Blazers were the best team in the league, but underachieved against the Lakers. Also, they were the only team in the 90's that had a double-digit lead in the fourth quarter in Chicago in a Game 6 or 7 of a playoff series (Game 6 of the 92 Finals). Not even the 95 Magic or the 98 Pacers can say that.