Versatility Is Overrated

[CTbasketball92]

SI and ESPN rank Draymond Green too high on their lists. Being "versatile" isn't inherently better than being a great volume scorer, and on teams without other stars, they give you about the same value at BEST. I'd say that it only matches or exceeds being a great scorer when that person also scores at a perennial All Star level. LeBron scores at a superstar level while also doing everything Draymond does (obv. at a higher level, when fully engaged, not that anyone ever makes this comparison). Paul George is a 6'9" small forward who can score like a perennial all star and defend the best player every night and initiate an offense. He isn't dependent on other players, when things get tough, he can flatout score at will, even if it's inefficiently (like 53 TS%). Draymond is an incredibly useful role player, but if he's being ranked on how he'd perform in a vacuum, being anywhere in the top 15 is ridiculous.

By extension, Klay Thompson's two way play isn't as valuable as Harden's ability to score somewhat efficiently seemingly no matter what while also running an offense. Not sure how many ISH argued that Klay was better, but again, if GSW has Harden instead of Klay, they win the finals handily.

[Smoke117]

Draymond is a top 3 defensive player in the league as far as impact. If you couple that with the rest of his game...he's not overrated at all.

[juju151111]

Dray is top 5 defense and a top 10 offensive impact player on a great team. Obviously he won't be has impactful on a team like say the pelicans, but he not on the pelicans is he.

[Jacks3]

Nah. Green is the best or second best defender in the league, the best passing big in the game, and stretches the floor. He's a ridiculously good player...easily top ten in the league.

[Young X]

Nothing ridiculous about him being ranked in the top 15.

The problem is you undervalue defense.

He was the most impactful defender last season.

Combine that with being a solid/good although limited offensive player and you have a top 10 type of player.

[CTbasketball92]

Nothing ridiculous about him being ranked in the top 15.

The problem is you undervalue defense.

He was the most impactful defender last season.

Combine that with being a solid/good although limited offensive player and you have a top 10 type of player.

In a vaccuum, he's definitely not as good as Klay Thompson, and top 15 players don't score in single digits in consecutive games during the playoffs, especially when they're still getting fried on defense. Put Draymond on a bad team, and he fails to lead that squad anywhere near the playoffs, essentially making him no better than the volume scorer -- and isn't that how most of you or Bball twitter evaluates a player's worth? For all of his great defense, LeBron still lit him tf up in the finals, especially after he talked all that s**t before game 6. Hey Draymond? Why don't you get an efficient 20+ points per game instead, since Steph. and Klay take all of the attention off you and you're wide open for all of your shots. Put PG on GSW instead of Draygod, there's no chance that GSW loses.

[Young X]

In a vaccuum, he's definitely not as good as Klay Thompson, and top 15 players don't score in single digits in consecutive games during the playoffs, especially when they're still getting fried on defense. Put Draymond on a bad team, and he fails to lead that squad anywhere near the playoffs, essentially making him no better than the volume scorer -- and isn't that how most of you or Bball twitter evaluates a player's worth? For all of his great defense, LeBron still lit him tf up in the finals, especially after he talked all that s**t before game 6. Hey Draymond? Why don't you get an efficient 20+ points per game instead, since Steph. and Klay take all of the attention off you and you're wide open for all of your shots. Put PG on GSW instead of Draygod, there's no chance that GSW loses.He was on pace to win FMVP and was the best player on his team in the series. :confusedshrug: You're acting like he was trash.

[Smoke117]

In a vaccuum, he's definitely not as good as Klay Thompson, and top 15 players don't score in single digits in consecutive games during the playoffs, especially when they're still getting fried on defense. Put Draymond on a bad team, and he fails to lead that squad anywhere near the playoffs, essentially making him no better than the volume scorer -- and isn't that how most of you or Bball twitter evaluates a player's worth? For all of his great defense, LeBron still lit him tf up in the finals, especially after he talked all that s**t before game 6. Hey Draymond? Why don't you get an efficient 20+ points per game instead, since Steph. and Klay take all of the attention off you and you're wide open for all of your shots. Put PG on GSW instead of Draygod, there's no chance that GSW loses.

Ben Wallace did this many times and he was certainly top 15 when in his prime defensively.

[Jameerthefear]

He was on pace to win FMVP and was the best player on his team in the series. :confusedshrug: You're acting like he was trash.
people forget how well dray played in that g7

[tpols]

In a vaccuum, he's definitely not as good as Klay Thompson, and top 15 players don't score in single digits in consecutive games during the playoffs, especially when they're still getting fried on defense. Put Draymond on a bad team, and he fails to lead that squad anywhere near the playoffs, essentially making him no better than the volume scorer -- and isn't that how most of you or Bball twitter evaluates a player's worth? For all of his great defense, LeBron still lit him tf up in the finals, especially after he talked all that s**t before game 6. Hey Draymond? Why don't you get an efficient 20+ points per game instead, since Steph. and Klay take all of the attention off you and you're wide open for all of your shots. Put PG on GSW instead of Draygod, there's no chance that GSW loses.


Dray had one of the greatest game 7's of all time ... and outshot Bron 73 to 48 in true shooting percentage.. 172 to 98 in ORTG.. lmao. yea, he got lit up.

meanwhile klay sh!t the bed in historic fashion on both sides of the ball, bricking everything on offense, and getting torched by kyrie on defense.


mods??

[Pointguard]

He was on pace to win FMVP and was the best player on his team in the series. :confusedshrug: You're acting like he was trash.
This.

And he was far better than any other Warrior by the end of the series. And his versatility/aggression definitely trumps TS% here (as the OP hypes). Same case with Lebron the last three years.

[CTbasketball92]

Dray had one of the greatest game 7's of all time ... and outshot Bron 73 to 48 in true shooting percentage.. 172 to 98 in ORTG.. lmao. yea, he got lit up.

meanwhile klay sh!t the bed in historic fashion on both sides of the ball, bricking everything on offense, and getting torched by kyrie on defense.


mods??

Great game, but he was also getting left wide open because the Cavs were focusing on guarding Steph and Klay. The Cavs knew he was only a decent shooter and that there was a good shot that he'd miss, so they gave him those shots. Give him credit for knocking them down, though. He shot 6/8 from three lol clearly out of the ordinary and that's in most ways, not replicable. Still doesn't make-up for his three str8 awful games. 4/17 between games 3 and 4, before he got suspended for Game 5 and played like TRASH against LeBron in Game 6, getting lit up for 41 points while only scoring 9 points on a pedestrian percentage. Klay bailed GSW out several times throughout the playoffs, but even he's not as good as people think. If either of them were really as good as people think they are, there's no way they would've lost. Neither of them "choked" either, they just aren't great at creating offense for themselves, and they never have to because they can rely on making the extra pass because of all of GSW's shooters and the space that Curry creates for them. He's a great defender and a decent offensive player, but that doesn't get you many places on a bad team. He's a system player. A really good one, but not sure he'd be that successful individually on many other teams.

[CTbasketball92]

This.

And he was far better than any other Warrior by the end of the series. And his versatility/aggression definitely trumps TS% here (as the OP hypes). Same case with Lebron the last three years.

Stop. LeBron scored a TON of points with his second and third best players missing due to injury. Draymond has all the spacing in the world and is on the world's most well-balanced team, and he still disappeared during key stretches, namely the games I already mentioned. LeBron scores the ball like an all time great, Draymond scores like a player that gets left open and gets opportunistic buckets.

[KiiiiNG]

Honestly, GSW are a bunch of role players who play perfectly together. Durant ushers in a whole new ball-game with his GOAT tier takeover abilities. KD does it inside and out unlike steph.

KD is the first superstar on this new-age Warriors team. It's scary to think he'll be surrounded by three of the best role players in basketball. Un****ingthinkable how great they're gonna be.

[bizil]

The ULTIMATE BLEND is a great scorer and a versatile great all around player in one! U have versatility in terms of numbers AND versatility in terms of positions a player can play. So these are the legends like MJ, Bird, Magic, Bron, Kobe, Hondo, Barry, Baylor, Big O,etc. For players 6'4 and under, guys like West and Wade would fit this bill. These guys are the cream of the crop perimeter wise. Great scorers like a Gervin, Nique, King, etc. weren't as complete all around.

Great all around players like a Pippen, Draymond, Pressey, Iggy, Odom, etc. didn't have the great scoring ability. So in the case of THESE guys, versatility can be overrated at times. For example, Odom was a better all around player than Dirk was. BUT Dirk was clearly the better player. Pippen was a better all around player than a Bernard King. BUT King in my book was CLEARLY the better player. Lowry is a better ALL AROUND PLAYER than Kyrie. BUT Kyrie is clearly the better player. So just because a player is more versatile than certain great scorers, IT DOESN'T MEAN they are the better player. Some people DON'T seem to get this, thus some premier All Star caliber players can become overrated.

[CTbasketball92]

The ULTIMATE BLEND is a great scorer and a versatile great all around player in one! U have versatility in terms of numbers AND versatility in terms of positions a player can play. So these are the legends like MJ, Bird, Magic, Bron, Kobe, Hondo, Barry, Baylor, Big O,etc. For players 6'4 and under, guys like West and Wade would fit this bill. These guys are the cream of the crop perimeter wise. Great scorers like a Gervin, Nique, King, etc. weren't as complete all around.

Great all around players like a Pippen, Draymond, Pressey, Iggy, Odom, etc. didn't have the great scoring ability. So in the case of THESE guys, versatility can be overrated at times. For example, Odom was a better all around player than Dirk was. BUT Dirk was clearly the better player. Pippen was a better all around player than a Bernard King. BUT King in my book was CLEARLY the better player. Lowry is a better ALL AROUND PLAYER than Kyrie. BUT Kyrie is clearly the better player. So just because a player is more versatile than certain great scorers, IT DOESN'T MEAN they are the better player. Some people DON'T seem to get this, thus some premier All Star caliber players can become overrated.

Exactly my point. I think it's sort of like premier Fringe ALl Stars become overrated. There are a lot of people who honest-to-god believe Draymond is better than Kyrie Irving, even though the latter was basically D-Wade with only almost adequate* defense during the playoffs and better shooting.

[tpols]

Kyrie Irving, even though the latter was basically D-Wade with only almost adequate* defense during the playoffs and better shooting.

you.. are seriously exposing yourself right now.

[CTbasketball92]

you.. are seriously exposing yourself right now.

Just being real. Nothing too crazy about that :confusedshrug:

Also, it's interesting to see how journalist rate people based on their ability to carry bad/mediocre teams until it's a prototypical new-era system player on a great team. No one really uses the fact that Draygod doesn't have the skillset to lead a team as "the guy" and they focus on his passing and defense while ignoring his inability to score at a high level. To me, Draygod is a top 25 level player in a perfect system for him. If I'm GSW, I don't trade him for many players, but by no means is he better than a LMA, Jimmy Butler, Damian Lillard ... etc.

[tpols]

Just being real. Nothing too crazy about that :confusedshrug:

Also, it's interesting to see how journalist rate people based on their ability to carry bad/mediocre teams until it's a prototypical new-era system player on a great team. No one really uses the fact that Draygod doesn't have the skillset to lead a team as "the guy" and they focus on his passing and defense while ignoring his inability to score at a high level. To me, Draygod is a top 25 level player in a perfect system for him. If I'm GSW, I don't trade him for many players, but by no means is he better than a LMA, Jimmy Butler, Damian Lillard ... etc.

all your criticisms on dray would apply to kyrie and klay as well.. they are ALL not capable of dragging bums anywhere. Kyrie and klay are more explosive scorers but they bring nothing to the table if their shot is off and don't know how to set the table for others at all. Dray isnt quite as explosive a scorer, but he too can still go off and always provides tremendous impact elsewhere. Yes... dray got his big break on the warriors, alongside all time great weapons, but he proved it wasn't a fluke when he went off when it mattered most while steph and klay were struggling!


The fact that you just said kyrie is basically dwayne wade minus a little defense shows how ignorant your viewpoint is. Wade has one of the best primes of any guard ever alongside kobe, jordan, magic, and west.. he gave elite impact everywhere ! Kyrie doesnt do anything on an elite level besides score, and when thats off hes a HUGE net negative.

[juju151111]

Exactly my point. I think it's sort of like premier Fringe ALl Stars become overrated. There are a lot of people who honest-to-god believe Draymond is better than Kyrie Irving, even though the latter was basically D-Wade with only almost adequate* defense during the playoffs and better shooting.
Dwade is better defender, creator, and leader. Kyrie is a great scorer.

[RedBlackAttack]

all your criticisms on dray would apply to kyrie and klay as well.. they are ALL not capable of dragging bums anywhere. Kyrie and klay are more explosive scorers but they bring nothing to the table if their shot is off and don't know how to set the table for others at all. Dray isnt quite as explosive a scorer, but he too can still go off and always provides tremendous impact elsewhere. Yes... dray got his big break on the warriors, alongside all time great weapons, but he proved it wasn't a fluke when he went off when it mattered most while steph and klay were struggling!


The fact that you just said kyrie is basically dwayne wade minus a little defense shows how ignorant your viewpoint is. Wade has one of the best primes of any guard ever alongside kobe, jordan, magic, and west.. he gave elite impact everywhere ! Kyrie doesnt do anything on an elite level besides score, and when thats off hes a HUGE net negative.
Comparing Kyrie and Klay's respective offense "when their shot is off" is as bad as any critique you're doing about someone else's opinion. Kyrie has one of the greatest handles in basketball history and is an elite finisher for a guard with amazing dexterity and is essentially ambidextrous. He's also deadly when he gets out on the break.

Kyrie could focus almost solely on getting to the basket and getting out in transition and he'd still have a big impact on the game. His jumpshot simply compliments those traits. Klay Thompson really is almost exclusively a jump-shooter.

That's why it is a mistake to lump guys together as "scorers" or "distributors" or generalize about any one sprawling aspect of the game. "Scoring" encompasses a huge swath of skillsets that can be completely different. Simply tossing all of that into the catch-all of "scoring" does a disservice to those abilities.

What makes Irving so difficult to guard is that, if his long-range shot is off, he takes a couple steps inside the three-point line and he was statistically the best midrange shooter in the league last year. If both happen to be off (almost never happens), he will still be able to get to the basket and cause problems for any defense.

Klay Thompson has a couple tricks up his sleeve when his jumper isn't falling, but nothing close to the varied scoring skillset of Irving.

Additionally, there are levels of "playmakers" in the NBA. Admittedly, Kyrie isn't on the highest level at this stage of his career. But, you're talking about a guy who is a 5 assist / 2 turnover player to Klay Thompson's 2 assist / 2 turnover output. It shouldn't be as black and white as "good" or "bad" ... there is a huge gray and Kyrie is significantly better at running an offense and setting up teammates than Thompson is.

Thompson is obviously the better defensive player at this stage, though great offense usually beats great defense in basketball (as Kyrie showed you a few months back).

Mind you, I'm not going to sit here and argue that he's already better than Dwyane Wade. That's silly. It doesn't automatically mean that any counter-argument is correct, though.

[tpols]

Comparing Kyrie and Klay's respective offense "when their shot is off" is as bad as any critique you're doing about someone else's opinion. Kyrie has one of the greatest handles in basketball history and is an elite finisher for a guard with amazing dexterity and is essentially ambidextrous.

Kyrie could focus almost solely on getting to the basket and getting out in transition and he'd impact the game. His jumpshot simply compliments those traits. Klay Thompson really is almost exclusively a jump-shooter.

That's why it is a mistake to lump guys together as "scorers" or "distributors" or generalize about any one sprawling aspect of the game. "Scoring" encompasses a huge swath of skillsets that can be completely different. What makes Irving so difficult to guard is that, if his long-range shot is off, he takes a couple steps inside the three-point line and he was statistically the best midrange shooter in the league last year. If both happen to be off (almost never happens), he will still be able to get to the basket and cause problems for any defense.

Klay Thompson has a couple tricks up his sleeve when his jumper isn't falling, but nothing close to the varied scoring skillset of Irving.

Mind you, I'm not going to sit here and argue that he's already better than Dwyane Wade. That's silly. It doesn't automatically mean that any counter-argument is correct, though.

kyrie cant directly set the table for teammates at all.. how many times have we watched this guy come up the floor, and not make a single pass, iso'ing for a shot ??

granted .. he's great at it, and can make it happen, but mentality wise it isnt going to be great for elevating a team offense over a long duration .. in bursts and with the perfect table setting teammate in Lebron James, yea its good, but on its own it's flat. And when it comes to defense, he's not even close to dwayne Wade.. you guys are going off a small sample and playing up the curry narrative. Everything considered, Kyrie is an average defender at best.. Wade was one of the best shotblockers and defensive guards of all time ! Wade could set the table ALL DAY.



Kyrie to me is firmly in that klay and dray class.. great all star, even all nba calibre players. OP is acting like dray is some level below and it is completely ignorant. And bringing wade into it compounded the issue.

[CTbasketball92]

all your criticisms on dray would apply to kyrie and klay as well.. they are ALL not capable of dragging bums anywhere. Kyrie and klay are more explosive scorers but they bring nothing to the table if their shot is off and don't know how to set the table for others at all. Dray isnt quite as explosive a scorer, but he too can still go off and always provides tremendous impact elsewhere. Yes... dray got his big break on the warriors, alongside all time great weapons, but he proved it wasn't a fluke when he went off when it mattered most while steph and klay were struggling!


The fact that you just said kyrie is basically dwayne wade minus a little defense shows how ignorant your viewpoint is. Wade has one of the best primes of any guard ever alongside kobe, jordan, magic, and west.. he gave elite impact everywhere ! Kyrie doesnt do anything on an elite level besides score, and when thats off hes a HUGE net negative.

The first part of your post is exactly my point. Draymond is ranked ahead of them by SI and prob. will be by at least a few other publications, even though he's no more capable of bringing bad teams to playoffs than they are. I think they're almost similar level players, except Kyrie will pretty much always get 21 points and six assists on 56 TS% no matter how bad the team he's on is, and his turnover rate is low. With Draymond, idk how well he'd shoot without all of the spacing GSW provides, and I don't really see him as a great shot creator either, so all of the sudden his "adequate" scoring is just ... insignificant for a top 2 player on your team. We all saw what happened to LeBron's jumper once he didn't have the Miami Heat's incredible spacing. (Quite as explosive? no, he's not even in the parking lot of the same ballpark as a scorer as Kyrie, or Klay). His defense is very good, but he's not Tony Allen, so in a playoff series, the star player will still go off on him. Can't think of anyone he's really given significant trouble. Didn't Anthony Davis average like 33 ppg against GSW last year? LOL. He's a really nice passer, but how helpful would his passing be on a team of average to bad shooters? Klay will always be a great shooter and a good defender, and he almost singlehandedly won game six against the Thunder when it mattered most. Another way of looking at it is like this: Which all star power forward will D.Ray honest to god outplay? Not LMA, not Blake Griffin, Definiotely not Anthony Davis. Which Small Forwards will Draygod outoplay? Not LeBron, Not Kawhi, Not KD, Not PG and honestly, not really jimmy butler either.

As for the Kyrie = Dwade thing. Stats don't tell the whole story but geez:

Dwade 2011 playoffs: 24.5 ppg on 49/27/77 splits to go along with 7 rebounds 4.4 assists, 1.3 blks 1.6 steals.

Kyrie 2016 playoffs = 25.2 ppg on 48/44/88 splits to go along with 4.7 assists, 3 rebounds (pedestrian), 1.7 steals, .6 blocks and 2.3 turnovers despite having an even higher usage rate (28.9) than Dwade (26.9).

Kyrie had a 24.7 PER and DWade had a 26.4 PER. Kyrie's massive advantage in 3point shooting and freethrow percentages and lower turnover rates make it not as far a part. Either way, it's clear that Kyrie had a playoff run that easily rivals that of almost any point guard in the last 10-15 years (especially considering games played), so me saying he was DWade over a 21 game sample while he also had a higher usage rate and probably played a better finals team than the 2011 mavericks (or at least not worse*), is not a stretch AT ALL. And some people still just can't see that :confusedshrug: Contrast that with Draymond, who has two of the league's best shooters, with one of them being banged up but still a superstar, and an inexhaustible bench of role players and a great coach, and he still didnt manage to be as impressive in the playoffs as Kyrie. Kyrie's timely shot making against elite defenseand intermittently good defense was more impressive and more valuable than Draygod's good all around play. After LeBron, the warriors are arguably better at every single position than the cavs, backups included, and GSW still lost. If you;re talking about maximum value, Kyrie's skills make him good enough to be a team's second best player and win a title. Draygod isn't that. You can believe the cavs aren't hoisting a trophy w. draygod in Kyrie's place, and honestly, not Klay either.

[CTbasketball92]

Dwade is better defender, creator, and leader. Kyrie is a great scorer.

Damn, so no one noticed when I wrote "in the playoffs"* lol

[juju151111]

Comparing Kyrie and Klay's respective offense "when their shot is off" is as bad as any critique you're doing about someone else's opinion. Kyrie has one of the greatest handles in basketball history and is an elite finisher for a guard with amazing dexterity and is essentially ambidextrous. He's also deadly when he gets out on the break.

Kyrie could focus almost solely on getting to the basket and getting out in transition and he'd still have a big impact on the game. His jumpshot simply compliments those traits. Klay Thompson really is almost exclusively a jump-shooter.

That's why it is a mistake to lump guys together as "scorers" or "distributors" or generalize about any one sprawling aspect of the game. "Scoring" encompasses a huge swath of skillsets that can be completely different. Simply tossing all of that into the catch-all of "scoring" does a disservice to those abilities.

What makes Irving so difficult to guard is that, if his long-range shot is off, he takes a couple steps inside the three-point line and he was statistically the best midrange shooter in the league last year. If both happen to be off (almost never happens), he will still be able to get to the basket and cause problems for any defense.

Klay Thompson has a couple tricks up his sleeve when his jumper isn't falling, but nothing close to the varied scoring skillset of Irving.

Additionally, there are levels of "playmakers" in the NBA. Admittedly, Kyrie isn't on the highest level at this stage of his career. But, you're talking about a guy who is a 5 assist / 2 turnover player to Klay Thompson's 2 assist / 2 turnover output. It shouldn't be as black and white as "good" or "bad" ... there is a huge gray and Kyrie is significantly better at running an offense and setting up teammates than Thompson is.

Thompson is obviously the better defensive player at this stage, though great offense usually beats great defense in basketball (as Kyrie showed you a few months back).

Mind you, I'm not going to sit here and argue that he's already better than Dwyane Wade. That's silly. It doesn't automatically mean that any counter-argument is correct, though.
Kyrie isn't the best creator or runs offense. He a scorer bro. Asts doesn't mean you can run a team.

[CTbasketball92]

Kyrie isn't the best creator or runs offense. He a scorer bro. Asts doesn't mean you can run a team.


I think the whole "he can't run an offense" thing is overstated. We never got to see how he could conduct an offense with good players. He want from McDonald's to gourmet in one day. As a secondary distributor, Kyrie's 5 assists and low turnover rate are actually pretty good for an SG, which is essentially the role he plays on the Cavs. He's not a terrific passer.

[juju151111]

The first part of your post is exactly my point. Draymond is ranked ahead of them by SI and prob. will be by at least a few other publications, even though he's no more capable of bringing bad teams to playoffs than they are. I think they're almost similar level players, except Kyrie will pretty much always get 21 points and six assists on 56 TS% no matter how bad the team he's on is, and his turnover rate is low. With Draymond, idk how well he'd shoot without all of the spacing GSW provides, and I don't really see him as a great shot creator either, so all of the sudden his "adequate" scoring is just ... insignificant for a top 2 player on your team. We all saw what happened to LeBron's jumper once he didn't have the Miami Heat's incredible spacing. (Quite as explosive? no, he's not even in the parking lot of the same ballpark as a scorer as Kyrie, or Klay). His defense is very good, but he's not Tony Allen, so in a playoff series, the star player will still go off on him. Can't think of anyone he's really given significant trouble. Didn't Anthony Davis average like 33 ppg against GSW last year? LOL. He's a really nice passer, but how helpful would his passing be on a team of average to bad shooters? Klay will always be a great shooter and a good defender, and he almost singlehandedly won game six against the Thunder when it mattered most. Another way of looking at it is like this: Which all star power forward will D.Ray honest to god outplay? Not LMA, not Blake Griffin, Definiotely not Anthony Davis. Which Small Forwards will Draygod outoplay? Not LeBron, Not Kawhi, Not KD, Not PG and honestly, not really jimmy butler either.

As for the Kyrie = Dwade thing. Stats don't tell the whole story but geez:

Dwade 2011 playoffs: 24.5 ppg on 49/27/77 splits to go along with 7 rebounds 4.4 assists, 1.3 blks 1.6 steals.

Kyrie 2016 playoffs = 25.2 ppg on 48/44/88 splits to go along with 4.7 assists, 3 rebounds (pedestrian), 1.7 steals, .6 blocks and 2.3 turnovers despite having an even higher usage rate (28.9) than Dwade (26.9).

Kyrie had a 24.7 PER and DWade had a 26.4 PER. Kyrie's massive advantage in 3point shooting and freethrow percentages and lower turnover rates make it not as far a part. Either way, it's clear that Kyrie had a playoff run that easily rivals that of almost any point guard in the last 10-15 years (especially considering games played), so me saying he was DWade over a 21 game sample while he also had a higher usage rate and probably played a better finals team than the 2011 mavericks (or at least not worse*), is not a stretch AT ALL. And some people still just can't see that :confusedshrug: Contrast that with Draymond, who has two of the league's best shooters, with one of them being banged up but still a superstar, and an inexhaustible bench of role players and a great coach, and he still didnt manage to be as impressive in the playoffs as Kyrie. Kyrie's timely shot making against elite defenseand intermittently good defense was more impressive and more valuable than Draygod's good all around play. After LeBron, the warriors are arguably better at every single position than the cavs, backups included, and GSW still lost. If you;re talking about maximum value, Kyrie's skills make him good enough to be a team's second best player and win a title. Draygod isn't that. You can believe the cavs aren't hoisting a trophy w. draygod in Kyrie's place, and honestly, not Klay either.
Why does everyone say Klay is some great defender he slightly below averge. He doesn

[juju151111]

I think the whole "he can't run an offense" thing is overstated. We never got to see how he could conduct an offense with good players. He want from McDonald's to gourmet in one day. As a secondary distributor, Kyrie's 5 assists and low turnover rate are actually pretty good for an SG, which is essentially the role he plays on the Cavs. He's not a terrific passer.
I agree, but on team usa he couldn't take control. He definitely had a great playoffs, but defense i would say is the only thing i put Wade above Kyrie.

[CTbasketball92]

I agree, but on team usa he couldn't take control. He definitely had a great playoffs, but defense i would say is the only thing i put Wade above Kyrie.

I think that could be a byproduct of the team not being all that well constructed, though. The ability to instinctively cater to random players' habits is something a true, true to life floor general can do. Kyrie prob. isn't that, but I saw him make plenty of nice passes during the Olympics, Klay and others just missed a ton of shots, and when it came to crunch time, it was clear that Kyrie was usually the best option against a zone, so people just got out of the way. Just like Klay and Steph's pull up 30 footers, Kyrie bringing the ball past halfcourt to score before a defense is set is just something people have to live with from time to time. Not a bad look considering his agility and ambidexterity around the basket. My biggest gripe with Kyrie during the Olympics was his defense. It honestly didn't look like he was trying, and for the Cavs' sake, I'm kind of happy he wasn't. Still, wasn't pretty to watch, and at times team USA was def. glad they had Lowry, who reminded me why he's actually a very good player*.

[RedBlackAttack]

I agree, but on team usa he couldn't take control. He definitely had a great playoffs, but defense i would say is the only thing i put Wade above Kyrie.
It's so silly to base anything on guys getting together for a week or two of practice and then being thrown in against national competition, a lot of whom have played together all of their basketball lives.

There was obvious chemistry issues for everyone on that team. And, I'd say of all the players who were on that team and played all the way through The Finals (Kyrie, Klay, Green, Barnes), Irving was the most effective. It's tough to go almost immediately from that pressure cooker into another.

And, what about the 2014 FIBA World Cup where he was on a team with James Harden, Anthony Davis and Steph Curry, but won MVP? He was also the starting PG on that team, whose offense functioned extremely well under the circumstances.

The 2016 Olympic team was pretty poorly put together, but they had it rolling by the end of things after they'd had some time to work together.

[Pointguard]

Stop. LeBron scored a TON of points with his second and third best players missing due to injury.
I don't know what you are getting at but his aggression and versatility meant more than his efficiency. Period. When Lebron had that great efficient series against SA, he would have been better off just going full beast mode and everything (versatility) to win. GS was one of the greatest efficient teams ever. But they they lost, to a hungrier more aggressive team that could make the adaptions to win the game. Hunger and Versatility beat out efficiency.


Draymond has all the spacing in the world and is on the world's most well-balanced team, and he still disappeared during key stretches, namely the games I already mentioned. LeBron scores the ball like an all time great, Draymond scores like a player that gets left open and gets opportunistic buckets.
True, but its really coaching when a versatile player doesn't get used to the max. Curry, is in an idea situation as well. Everybody gets looks on that team. I doubt Curry can carry a team that doesn't pick well (Draymond doesn't get credit for that either) and provide space for him. Draymond was really key to the success of that team and you are under-rating that. Their starting unit had the best defense over the last two years. Draymond anchors the defense. And does all the hard covers. He got more assist, steals, blocks than Curry did in the finals. Had a much better ORTG and DRTG than Curry, EFG%, TS% too in the finals. And you are bringing up TS%? Its obvious you are over-rating TS%.

[juju151111]

I think that could be a byproduct of the team not being all that well constructed, though. The ability to instinctively cater to random players' habits is something a true, true to life floor general can do. Kyrie prob. isn't that, but I saw him make plenty of nice passes during the Olympics, Klay and others just missed a ton of shots, and when it came to crunch time, it was clear that Kyrie was usually the best option against a zone, so people just got out of the way. Just like Klay and Steph's pull up 30 footers, Kyrie bringing the ball past halfcourt to score before a defense is set is just something people have to live with from time to time. Not a bad look considering his agility and ambidexterity around the basket. My biggest gripe with Kyrie during the Olympics was his defense. It honestly didn't look like he was trying, and for the Cavs' sake, I'm kind of happy he wasn't. Still, wasn't pretty to watch, and at times team USA was def. glad they had Lowry, who reminded me why he's actually a very good player*.
If he just slightly gets better defensively it would be crazy. He a great scorer and he was coming off injury too.

[CTbasketball92]

I don't know what you are getting at but his aggression and versatility meant more than his efficiency. Period. When Lebron had that great efficient series against SA, he would have been better off just going full beast mode and everything (versatility) to win. GS was one of the greatest efficient teams ever. But they they lost, to a hungrier more aggressive team that could make the adaptions to win the game. Hunger and Versatility beat out efficiency.

True, but its really coaching when a versatile player doesn't get used to the max. Curry, is in an idea situation as well. Everybody gets looks on that team. I doubt Curry can carry a team that doesn't pick well (Draymond doesn't get credit for that either) and provide space for him. Draymond was really key to the success of that team and you are under-rating that. Their starting unit had the best defense over the last two years. Draymond anchors the defense. And does all the hard covers. He got more assist, steals, blocks than Curry did in the finals. Had a much better ORTG and DRTG than Curry, EFG%, TS% too in the finals. And you are bringing up TS%? Its obvious you are over-rating TS%.

Here's the thing about your first point: Great offense beats great defense, and Draymond's defense was worthless against LeBron and Kyrie Irving and Anthony Davis and James Harden and ... really, any elite player he's played against. With his defense being so worthless, he needed to score to balance it out -- just like how a scorer who allows his defensive assignment to get 30 ppg efficiently needs to score a ton of points to make up for his poor defensive performance. Draymond essentially "failed" in both roles, or at least, didnt do what a true to life all star would/should do. It's because he was forced to get out of his comfort zone and couldnt provide what the Warriors really needed: a really dynamic one-on-one player, or someone who could actually shoot. Klay's limits as a shot-creator were exposed because even though the Cavs were focusing on Curry a lot, he still klanked a bunch of open shots and couldnt get to the line enough or score enough in other ways to be have the impact he should've had against a team that's much less talented than the one he's on. Plus, his defense was useless for the last five games, even though he had fine form. he needed to be a really good all around scorer -- like a Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen other players he's prob. put in the same class as -- to win, but he didnt. Not a fluke, either. He's averaged under 20 ppg for two consecutive finals, despite having the most ideal circumstances imaginable (lol). Draymond actually played well in the finals, but I ... give me PG (ranked above him), Jimmy Butler, Kyrie and other players he's ranked ahead of over him. As for comparing what Draymond did to what Curry did in the finals? yeah, he outplayed him, but curry commanded a borderline-unprecedented amount of attention and allowed him to score. Ok, so Draygod played good defense and passed well. So now we're saying that prime Iggy would be a top 10-15 player? lol, nah bruh. And another thing, you can get a trevor arize (prime) and a solid rim protector to help someone whos's a great scorer but not well-rounded -- but there's nothing you can do for someone with average scoring ability. A complete offensive aresenal-having player is really rare, only, and getting a few solid scorers isn't as good as having a virtuoso scorer.

[Pointguard]

Here's the thing about your first point: Great offense beats great defense,

Hold on. I am willing to bet you that the top five defensive teams win the chip a ton more than the top five offensive teams. As far as teams are concerned this is unquestionable.


and Draymond's defense was worthless against LeBron and Kyrie Irving and Anthony Davis and James Harden and ... really, any elite player he's played against. With his defense being so worthless, he needed to score to balance it out -
and this is his versatility beyond setting the best screens and making the key pass.


just like how a scorer who allows his defensive assignment to get 30 ppg efficiently needs to score a ton of points to make up for his poor defensive performance. Draymond essentially "failed" in both roles, or at least, didnt do what a true to life all star would/should do.
He leads his team in rebounds, blocks, assist, ORTG, DRTG and anchors the defense, and even shoots 3 pointers more accurate than Steph or any other starter, but should hold down and all time great better while Steph was getting murked by Kyrie????


It's because he was forced to get out of his comfort zone and couldnt provide what the Warriors really needed: Somebody who shoots the three much better than Steph??? They had the best offense in the league the last two years easily but they needed Durant right. After they won 73 games. You aren't making sense. Are you really arguing that the Warrior's didn't have enough offense? This is sick.


a really dynamic one-on-one player, or someone who could actually shoot. Klay's limits as a shot-creator were exposed because even though the Cavs were focusing on Curry a lot, he still klanked a bunch of open shots and couldnt get to the line enough or score enough in other ways to be have the impact he should've had against a team that's much less talented than the one he's on. Plus, his defense was useless for the last five games, even though he had fine form. he needed to be a really good all around scorer -- like a Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen other players he's prob. put in the same class as -- to win, but he didnt. Not a fluke, either. He's averaged under 20 ppg for two consecutive finals, despite having the most ideal circumstances imaginable (lol).
He averaged 10FGA per game. Should Steph had taken less??? They were the best offensive team in the league. They didn't need more scoring. They lost because their guns lost confidence. If Draymond took as many shots as Curry, he would have lead his team in every major statistical category. Why not blame him??? Curry was outplayed by two PG's. But don't LET all time great Lebron outscore Draymond.



Draymond actually played well in the finals, but I ... give me PG (ranked above him), Jimmy Butler, Kyrie and other players he's ranked ahead of over him.

You are aware that OKC played strength and height on the Warrior's right. Only toughness underneath saved them. You saying that PG was needed is really bizarre in a number of ways.

[Pointguard]

I agree, but on team usa he couldn't take control. He definitely had a great playoffs, but defense i would say is the only thing i put Wade above Kyrie.
Wade was one of the few players ever in the league that could score 30ppg primarily off of driving. He outscored prime Dirk by 14 ppg in the final four games of a championship. He's bigger, stronger, smarter and a better passer than Kyrie for beginners. He's better on the fast break. One of the few players ever that could match Lebron while they guarded each other. And he was more versatile than Kyrie. Kyrie could only shoot better and had a fancier handle. I'm thinking I misunderstood something here???

[CTbasketball92]

Hold on. I am willing to bet you that the top five defensive teams win the chip a ton more than the top five offensive teams. As far as teams are concerned this is unquestionable.

and this is his versatility beyond setting the best screens and making the key pass.

He leads his team in rebounds, blocks, assist, ORTG, DRTG and anchors the defense, and even shoots 3 pointers more accurate than Steph or any other starter, but should hold down and all time great better while Steph was getting murked by Kyrie????
Somebody who shoots the three much better than Steph??? They had the best offense in the league the last two years easily but they needed Durant right. After they won 73 games. You aren't making sense. Are you really arguing that the Warrior's didn't have enough offense? This is sick.

He averaged 10FGA per game. Should Steph had taken less??? They were the best offensive team in the league. They didn't need more scoring. They lost because their guns lost confidence. If Draymond took as many shots as Curry, he would have lead his team in every major statistical category. Why not blame him??? Curry was outplayed by two PG's. But don't LET all time great Lebron outscore Draymond.



You are aware that OKC played strength and height on the Warrior's right. Only toughness underneath saved them. You saying that PG was needed is really bizarre in a number of ways.

You can get defensive role players pretty readily, is one of my points You can't get a great scorer just anywhere. Draymond wasn't the reason the warriors lost, but he did disappear in three straight elimination games (3, 4, 6 -- 5 he was suspended cuz' he's a dummy), which is something we'd all bash actually elite* players for if they ended up losing the series, especially when they're on the much better team. I honest to god think Prime Iggy would be put into just as high regard as Draymond if he were on the warriors instead. Elite defense would get more attention and he passed very well and could score a bit better from what I could tell. No version of Iggy is better than top 25 in the league at best.

As far as shot attempts go, I went on a tangent and was talking about Klay. Might as well get two birds with one stone (or, at least try to). Klay's vaunted "two-way play" and status as someone considered one of the "best two way players in the game" were put up to the test. Truth is, he's a great shooter (GOAT level) with solid defense, and not much more.

As for the shooting, I just meant that Klay's jumper just disappeared. Warriors really just needed one of their all stars to score without a three pointer.

As for Paul George (PG), yeah, I have no doubts the Warriors win the series and PG takes home the FMVP if he's there instead of Draygod. PG would've gotten real buckets off shots and FT attempts he got on his own, which is really what GSW needed. I think Jimmy Butler would've too, to be honest. I think almost everyone on GSW is pretty damn overrated :confusedshrug:

[CTbasketball92]

Wade was one of the few players ever in the league that could score 30ppg primarily off of driving. He outscored prime Dirk by 14 ppg in the final four games of a championship. He's bigger, stronger, smarter and a better passer than Kyrie for beginners. He's better on the fast break. One of the few players ever that could match Lebron while they guarded each other. And he was more versatile than Kyrie. Kyrie could only shoot better and had a fancier handle. I'm thinking I misunderstood something here???

I think you and everyone else missed the part where I said that it was during this year's playoffs that Kyrie played as well as 2011 Dwade, and he did it against a team that was probably worse than this year's warriors. Again, it's hard not to make this comparison in very similar roles:

Dwade 2011 playoffs: 24.5 ppg on 49/27/77 splits to go along with 7 rebounds 4.4 assists, 1.3 blks 1.6 steals.

Kyrie 2016 playoffs = 25.2 ppg on 48/44/88 splits to go along with 4.7 assists, 3 rebounds (pedestrian), 1.7 steals, .6 blocks and 2.3 turnovers despite having an even higher usage rate (28.9) than Dwade (26.9).

Kyrie had a 24.7 PER and DWade had a 26.4 PER. Kyrie's massive advantage in 3point shooting and freethrow percentages and lower turnover rates make it not as far a part. Either way, it's clear that Kyrie had a playoff run that easily rivals that of almost any point guard in the last 10-15 years (especially considering games played), so me saying he was DWade over a 21 game sample while he also had a higher usage rate and probably played a better finals team than the 2011 mavericks (or at least not worse*), is not a stretch AT ALL. It was easily a superstar playoff run, and when you consider how long he maintained his numbers, you could argue he was the second best player in the whole postseason, with only LeBron doing better for sure.

In having this past year's playoff run with such a high usage rate, it's clear that Kyrie has more sustained playoff success than pretty much every single player considered in his tier; I say there's a reason for that: he's just better than them, or if not "better" his maximum impact for a team extremely high.

[Smoke117]

Kyrie as good as 2011 Wade in this past playoffs? Except for the fact that he's not even close as a defender or playmaker, I guess?

[CTbasketball92]

Kyrie as good as 2011 Wade in this past playoffs? Except for the fact that he's not even close as a defender or playmaker, I guess?

I addressed the defense part. he wasn't as good of a defender, but he scored even more points more efficiently while still getting 1.6 steals a game and his usage rate was a bit higher. Also, even though I wouldn't say Kyrie is the playmaker DWade was during that run, he did average 4.7 assists to Dwade's 4.4, while also averaging less turnovers and playing fewer minutes. The point is, it's arguable, and not many players in the league have runs that can be mentioned in the same breath as DWade's 2011 run.

[El Gato Negro]

His defense is overrated as well. He gets away with more holding and hacking not to mention kicking than any player I have ever seen. Will be interesting to see if he gets the same pass from the refs now that gs has been labeled the villains instead of the golden child.

[GimmeThat]

generally, if you are not > than your opponent, you are not versatile

in the case you are less than your opponent and am versatile? capitalization on mismatch comes to mind, which is variance.

[iamgine]

In a vaccuum, he's definitely not as good as Klay Thompson, and top 15 players don't score in single digits in consecutive games during the playoffs, especially when they're still getting fried on defense. Put Draymond on a bad team, and he fails to lead that squad anywhere near the playoffs, essentially making him no better than the volume scorer -- and isn't that how most of you or Bball twitter evaluates a player's worth? For all of his great defense, LeBron still lit him tf up in the finals, especially after he talked all that s**t before game 6. Hey Draymond? Why don't you get an efficient 20+ points per game instead, since Steph. and Klay take all of the attention off you and you're wide open for all of your shots. Put PG on GSW instead of Draygod, there's no chance that GSW loses.
Draymond is rated highly because of his uniqueness. He's an elite defender who can defend multiple positions and a big who can dribble and pass on a high level. This allows his team to execute things on both sides that they otherwise can't.

Is Klay the better player? Sure. But it might be easier to replace a Klay than a Draymond. For example, Warriors would still be very lethal if Shaun Livingston starts instead of Klay, but I'm not sure they would be as lethal if they put a Shaun Livingston level forward on Draymond's place.

[bizil]

When it comes to a Draymond, he's really THE GUY who enables Golden State to play the way they do in many aspects. Curry has been their best player BY FAR, but Dray is the KEY COG when it comes to their small ball lineups. He's one of those RARE GUYS who can damn near defend every position. On the other end, he's not a great scorer, BUT MOST pure PF's and C's.can't defend him on the perimeter. If u put most SF's on him, he's too physical and will post them up. And after Bron, he's likely the best passing forward in the league.

So for a particular team, versatility is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT! I put more stock in that than these funny ass formulas, ratios, etc. BUT WHEN comparing the best players up against each other, versatility AT THAT POINT can become overrated! Because as great as Draymond is, he's not a guy who carry a team scoring night after night. THAT'S the most important aspect in basketball. Other than a Bill Russell or Unseld, VIRTUALLY every MVP of the NBA was an alpha dog level scorer. That's for a REASON!!

SO OBVIOUSLY, u can't put Dray on the level of players who are great scorers AND have great versatility in one. BUT Dray certainly is one of the top 15-20 players in the world at this point. I think top ten is stretching it. If he was TRULY top 10 material, he would have gotten more minutes and had more impact on the WATERED DOWN Olympic team.

[warriorfan]

It is all circumstantial, some teams need versatility, some teams need players that dominate totally in one aspect. It all comes down to the composite of players and what the team needs more. As the poster above put it, Draymond's versatility works very well with a team with very unique assets (Splash Brothers + Iguodala) such as Golden State, with other teams not as much.

[ILLsmak]

SI and ESPN rank Draymond Green too high on their lists. Being "versatile" isn't inherently better than being a great volume scorer, and on teams without other stars, they give you about the same value at BEST. I'd say that it only matches or exceeds being a great scorer when that person also scores at a perennial All Star level. LeBron scores at a superstar level while also doing everything Draymond does (obv. at a higher level, when fully engaged, not that anyone ever makes this comparison). Paul George is a 6'9" small forward who can score like a perennial all star and defend the best player every night and initiate an offense. He isn't dependent on other players, when things get tough, he can flatout score at will, even if it's inefficiently (like 53 TS%). Draymond is an incredibly useful role player, but if he's being ranked on how he'd perform in a vacuum, being anywhere in the top 15 is ridiculous.

By extension, Klay Thompson's two way play isn't as valuable as Harden's ability to score somewhat efficiently seemingly no matter what while also running an offense. Not sure how many ISH argued that Klay was better, but again, if GSW has Harden instead of Klay, they win the finals handily.

Being able to perform your role is more important than versatility, and a really good role player should be very high on the list. Understanding your role. Rarely would I say Dray does anything we are like woah, he could do that? But he has a large role and performs it well. He doesn't step outside of that role.

Think of it this way: if you have 5 players in the NBA who can actually be a superstar... then what do you want after that... the guy who is really, really close but not a superstar or the guy who is the best role player to compliment those superstars. To me, I take the latter.

I only use the vacuum (imagine said player on a team with only role players and see who performs better) situation when I am comparing which superstar has more impact, and even that is total speculation.

That's also why Klay is probably better than Harden... Harden is a fringe guy whose impact would lessen by being on a championship team, where as Klay would thrive and score in that 2nd option role.

GSW is a well built team; maybe lacking bigs now, but otherwise...

-Smak

[knicksman]

Quality over quantity. Thats why id rather have a kobe who is an elite scorer over a jack of all trades master of none like lebron. Scoring >anything else. But it takes higher iq to identify which skills are more important and which are less so its not surprising most bran stans prefer versatile players.

[hold this L]

He's the 6th best player in the league.

[avonbarksdale]

dray is pretty good, however his D is extremely overrated

he wasn't guarding lebron OR kyrie in the finals, that to me is enough proof he isn't good enough

[tpols]

dray is pretty good, however his D is extremely overrated

he wasn't guarding lebron OR kyrie in the finals, that to me is enough proof he isn't good enough

:biggums:


you guys have officially lost your mind .. why the hell would draymond green, a power forward take a full time assignment on a point guard.. or a small forward when his team has one of the best man to man SF defenders in the game?


Dray's defensive prowess lies in his ability to anticipate off ball, make big momentum swinging plays and get the break going, juices flowing for the team. And he was doing an amazing job of that before and after being nuetered.. you idiots saying his defense is overrated because he didnt take assignments way outside his positional spectrum are next level reaching

[CTbasketball92]

Quality over quantity. Thats why id rather have a kobe who is an elite scorer over a jack of all trades master of none like lebron. Scoring >anything else. But it takes higher iq to identify which skills are more important and which are less so its not surprising most bran stans prefer versatile players.

Here's the thing about that: LeBron is pretty much a better scorer than Kobe. We could talk about Kobe's scoring arsenal, but he shoots a miserable 41% during his finals career. LeBron scores much more efficiently than Kobe and produces at a superstar level while ALSO being the best passer and defender on the court. That's the difference between LeBron --- and Iggy/Odom/Draymond Green, and it's a huge one. Versatility is great and important to have, but if your main guy cant score and be versatile, they don't have an inherent advantage over someone who's a great scorer.

[Dragonyeuw]

If he was TRULY top 10 material, he would have gotten more minutes and had more impact on the WATERED DOWN Olympic team.

I think there are about 10-11 players who are clearly better. After that, you could pretty much argue him as a fringe top 15 player. That's what he is to me anyway. I actually was completely disengaged from the Olympics so I can't speak as to why he didn't get much floor time there, but in NBA terms he falls right under the truly elites.

[kshutts1]

Just glanced at the first page, so I apologize if this point has come up already..

But it seems like most people are missing the point that OP tried/is trying to make.

There's a difference between rankings players within their current situations/contexts and without. Reading the OP, it sounded as though he was saying that rankings should be done on an overall basis, as in take Green off the Warriors and just look at what he does/could bring to ANY team.

It sounds like he's arguing that if there was to be a total re-draft of the league for just one season, Draymond would not be a top 15 pick in that re-draft. And I agree with that.

In his current situation, Draymond is almost literally a perfect fit. But outside of that situation, he may still be very good, but certainly not nearly as great.

[ralph_i_el]

Value is Value

He can defend all 5 positions basically. He's one of the best ballhandlers and IQ players at his position.

His combination of contributions and strengths are just as rare as all-star scoring ability.

He's top-20 bare minimum right now.

[kshutts1]

For a one-year re-draft, the players I'd take over Draymond:

Definitely (not in order):
Lebron
Durant
Davis
Cousins
Curry
George
Leonard
Wall
Harden
Westbrook
Paul
Griffin
Lillard

Probably (again not in any order):
Lowry
Melo
Kyrie
Millsap
Towns
Butler
Aldridge


Are they all better players? Not necessarily. But Green's particular, and amazing, skillset is better suited in a complementary role. He's one of those rare players, like Pippen and Rodman and Stockton and Big Ben, etc, that is difficult to rank because he should be a "second fiddle", but he's so ridiculously talented that a lot of people want him to be a "first fiddle". But it's just not his style.

[Lord P]

Switch Nerlens Noel and Draymond Green's teams.
Warriors win 10 less games, Sixers are still in the lottery.

[avonbarksdale]

:biggums:


you guys have officially lost your mind .. why the hell would draymond green, a power forward take a full time assignment on a point guard.. or a small forward when his team has one of the best man to man SF defenders in the game?


Dray's defensive prowess lies in his ability to anticipate off ball, make big momentum swinging plays and get the break going, juices flowing for the team. And he was doing an amazing job of that before and after being nuetered.. you idiots saying his defense is overrated because he didnt take assignments way outside his positional spectrum are next level reaching

well if hes so good then why isn't he guarding the best or 2nd best player..

do you really not think kawhi could guard kyrie? or paul george?

and come on, him and lebron are the same size don't act like that is some mismatch because one plays the 3 and one plays the 4

[tpols]

well if hes so good then why isn't he guarding the best or 2nd best player..

do you really not think kawhi could guard kyrie? or paul george?

and come on, him and lebron are the same size don't act like that is some mismatch because one plays the 3 and one plays the 4

he does guard them, on switches all the time.. and does a standout job so they try to go away from him .. to guys like curry, barnes, and even klay at times. Green can play shutdown man defense, but as a PF with great shotblocking and deflecting instincts it wouldnt make sense to move him out full time onto point guards and take away that greatest defensive strength (which is the most impactful thing anybody can do on defense ~ rim protection). It would also take away from his rebounding as well. Your logic is crazy mang, and not in tune with basketball reality.


paul george and kawhi are not expected to bang down low like dray is.. so yea they take more perimeter assignments. Kawhi has aldridge, pau, previously duncan all behind him to do that work.. who exactly does dray have? nobody, himself.

[knicksman]

Here's the thing about that: LeBron is pretty much a better scorer than Kobe. We could talk about Kobe's scoring arsenal, but he shoots a miserable 41% during his finals career. LeBron scores much more efficiently than Kobe and produces at a superstar level while ALSO being the best passer and defender on the court. That's the difference between LeBron --- and Iggy/Odom/Draymond Green, and it's a huge one. Versatility is great and important to have, but if your main guy cant score and be versatile, they don't have an inherent advantage over someone who's a great scorer.


No theyre not. Shaq is better than kobe too statwise but he has a weakness thats why hes not the better scorer. Same with lebron. Weve seen him getting stopped by the elites of the elites.

[knicksman]

THICK versatility is underrated. Only found on the Lebron species... Missing from the Kobe one.

Another corny bran stan. I think its safe to conclude by now that bran stans have lower iqs than kobe stans

[Milbuck]

List out to me all the players in the league who can do all of the following...

- defend the SF-C full time, protect the paint and switch on to perimeter players all at a DPOY level
- give you 10-12 boards a night
- give you 14-16 points a night, can get hustle points inside and has range out to 3PT
- can push the ball and create in transition or initiate offense in the half court as a main playmaker
- has a relentless motor/energy, physically tough, crazy competitor
- is a vocal, emotional leader on court who elevates the mental state of all his teammates

I used to think he was overrated, but seriously, think about how many players in the league do everything he does, and at the level or better than how he does it. He's a bonafide star impact player. You don't put up 16/10/6/2/2 in the playoffs with elite defense and 32/15/9 on 73% FG in game 7 of the finals and be overrated. He's a beast. Just not the type of beast you want him to be, the flashy iso scoring type of player.

[bizil]

List out to me all the players in the league who can do all of the following...

- defend the SF-C full time, protect the paint and switch on to perimeter players all at a DPOY level
- give you 10-12 boards a night
- give you 14-16 points a night, can get hustle points inside and has range out to 3PT
- can push the ball and create in transition or initiate offense in the half court as a main playmaker
- has a relentless motor/energy, physically tough, crazy competitor
- is a vocal, emotional leader on court who elevates the mental state of all his teammates

I used to think he was overrated, but seriously, think about how many players in the league do everything he does, and at the level or better than how he does it. He's a bonafide star impact player. You don't put up 16/10/6/2/2 in the playoffs with 32/15/9 on 73% FG in game 7 of the finals and be overrated. He's a beast. Just not the type of beast you want him to be, the flashy iso scoring type of player.

Well said! I think Dray is OVERRATED if people put him in the top 10 players in the league. BECAUSE u have alpha dog guys who ALSO have very good to great all around games to go with it. If people say he's more in the top 15 range I'm fine with that.

[Young X]

Another thing is Draymond last season had the best plus/minus season ever recorded.

We don't have the play-by-play numbers from before the mid 90's but it is very possible that no team ever played better than the Warriors did with Draymond on the floor last season.

That isn't to say he's anywhere near the most impactful player but it says something when you have that kind of effect on a team.

And just think about it, when did the Warriors take off and become this historically great team?

When Green was inserted into the starting lineup and helped make them the dyanamic, versatile team they are. He does so many things that just help you win ball games.

[bizil]

Another thing is Draymond last season had the best plus/minus season ever recorded.

We don't have the play-by-play numbers from before the mid 90's but it is very possible that no team ever played better than the Warriors did with Draymond on the floor last season.

That isn't to say he's anywhere near the most impactful player but it says something when you have that kind of effect on a team.

And just think about it, when did the Warriors take off and become this historically great team?

When Green was inserted into the starting lineup and helped make them the dyanamic, versatile team they are. He does so many things that just help you win ball games.

Well said! Curry is by far their best player. BUT Dray is the main reason why they can play the style they can. He can defend damn near any position AND is a matchup problem on the other end for pure PF's and C's.

If u put a 3 on Dray, he can post them up. In some small ball lineups, the undersized PF or C couldn't defend their position well enough against bigger guys. OR some couldn't create a mismatch on offense. Dray gives u BOTH so he deserves mad props for that!

[CTbasketball92]

List out to me all the players in the league who can do all of the following...

- defend the SF-C full time, protect the paint and switch on to perimeter players all at a DPOY level
- give you 10-12 boards a night
- give you 14-16 points a night, can get hustle points inside and has range out to 3PT
- can push the ball and create in transition or initiate offense in the half court as a main playmaker
- has a relentless motor/energy, physically tough, crazy competitor
- is a vocal, emotional leader on court who elevates the mental state of all his teammates

I used to think he was overrated, but seriously, think about how many players in the league do everything he does, and at the level or better than how he does it. He's a bonafide star impact player. You don't put up 16/10/6/2/2 in the playoffs with elite defense and 32/15/9 on 73% FG in game 7 of the finals and be overrated. He's a beast. Just not the type of beast you want him to be, the flashy iso scoring type of player.

He's a really good player, and I'm just saying what he does isn't necessarily more valuable than an iso scorer who doesn't do all of those things, especially in a vacuum. Seriously, there are people that would argue he's a top 10 player. To me, he's a top 20-25 player. But I really don't think the warriors would've lost this year and lost two games last year if Draymond, Klay and Steph are all as good as people seem to think they are.