Why teams don't double-team Lebron

[3ball]

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There's no effective defense when a great jumpshooter gets hot, which is why defenses frequently need to double-team and get the ball out of a hot jumpshooter's hands.

Otoh, it isn't essential to double-team a rim attacker because the defense can meet them at the rim with multiple defenders.

Obviously, defenses don't mind (http://a2.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fmedia%2FscGraphics%2F2015%2F06%2F11%2FFS_ 1PM_NBA_061115_LeBron_James_touches_1434037356076. jpg&w=570) letting Lebron have single-coverage because his broke jumpshot prevents him from ever getting "hot".. Also, encouraging isolations from Lebron encourages him to USE that broke jumpshot.

Otoh, a goat jumpshooter like Jordan required incessant double-teaming to prevent seemingly automatic scores and to prevent him from getting "hot".. Ultimately, his commanding of double-teams coupled with his off-ball movement/low time of possession fostered superior teamwork.. :confusedshrug:
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[Bankaii]

First off, doesn't get doubled now?:oldlol:

In response to your shit thread, because unlike MJ he knows how to pass the ball.

inb4 copy/paste of Lebron only having X more amount of assists to Y more amount of turnovers without any context whatsoever

[GimmeThat]

this is more of a criticism of trying to differentiate Lebron and Melo, as to how Melo could just go down the floor, get in a comfortable spot and launch a shot. where as you take the running the floor game out of Lebron, and he knows that unless he got something preserved after knocking 3-4 jump shot, the game might just be over, which is also where you separate him with Kobe.

where does this put Durant?

odd to say, make him to want to learn the game, all while placing the chip on the fact that you are wiser than him still

[LostCause]

In response to your shit thread, because unlike MJ he knows how to pass the ball.

Bron literally averages 1.6 more assists in his career than MJ, and the two of them played distinctly different roles in their respective teams offense for the majority of their careers

Your statement is retarded, even if it IS just a response to a bad thread


inb4 copy/paste of Lebron only having X more amount of assists to Y more amount of turnovers without any context whatsoever

Exactly what context do you believe negates the relevance of the turnovers? The difference in roles surely wasn't a factor in your above statement so I'm curious

[Jasper]

lebron is quite essentially the best passer in the league right now. /

[AintNoSunshine]

Good luck trying to double the best passer in the league. Immediate dunk and 2 free points thanks.

[CeltsGarlic]

LeBron and I are double teaming your hoe as we speak

[ralph_i_el]

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There's no effective defense when a great jumpshooter gets hot, so which is why defenses frequently need to double-team and get the ball out of a hot jumpshooter's hands.

Otoh, it isn't essential to double-team a rim attacker because the defense can meet them at the rim with multiple defenders.

Obviously, defenses don't mind (http://a2.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fmedia%2FscGraphics%2F2015%2F06%2F11%2FFS_ 1PM_NBA_061115_LeBron_James_touches_1434037356076. jpg&w=570) letting Lebron have single-coverage because his broke jumpshot prevents him from ever getting "hot".. Also, encouraging isolations from Lebron encourages him to USE that broke jumpshot.

Otoh, a goat jumpshooter like Jordan required incessant double-teaming to prevent seemingly automatic scores and to prevent him from getting "hot".. Ultimately, his commanding of double-teams coupled with his off-ball movement/low time of possession fostered superior teamwork.. :confusedshrug:

It isn't essential to double team an attacker....because you're going to bring help in the paint.....which is the same goddamn thing :facepalm

[ralph_i_el]

Bron literally averages 1.6 more assists in his career than MJ, and the two of them played distinctly different roles in their respective teams offense for the majority of their careers

Your statement is retarded, even if it IS just a response to a bad thread



Exactly what context do you believe negates the relevance of the turnovers? The difference in roles surely wasn't a factor in your above statement so I'm curious

MJ averaged 7 assists per 100 possessions

LeBron averages 9.4 per 100 possessions.

when you play a bunch of seasons in the 80's, the high pace inflates your stats.

[ClipperRevival]

Yeah, kind of obvious. You seldom saw a transcendent talent like LeBron get single coverage in a finals like he did in 2015 or in many stretches against the Spurs in 2013 and 2014. They didn't respect his jumper. So they just backed off him and defended the drive.

But we've also seen that when his jumper is even respectable, he's incredible. Like 2012, 2013 and the last 3-4 games of 2016. It just opens everything else up for him.

[tpols]

It isn't essential to double team an attacker....because you're going to bring help in the paint.....which is the same goddamn thing :facepalm

that happens when anybody drives into the paint.. just basic help defense at the rim from a big man isnt a double team.

[ShawkFactory]

Didn't read...but you've probably said all of that before

[Bankaii]

Bron literally averages 1.6 more assists in his career than MJ, and the two of them played distinctly different roles in their respective teams offense for the majority of their careers

Your statement is retarded, even if it IS just a response to a bad thread



Exactly what context do you believe negates the relevance of the turnovers? The difference in roles surely wasn't a factor in your above statement so I'm curious
You talk about context, then don't even bother to include it lol.
One thing is pace. Faster pace=more assists.
Second you have to look at the systems they played in. Jordan played in a system that optimized passing and getting the best shot which would lower his TOs. Lebron plays in a system where it's basically "run the offense for us".
Third, Lebron has faced much better defensive teams, which would also help explain the turnovers.

Jordan is a score first player. Everyone in the gym knows that 90% of the time he's looking to score. It's much smarter to double him.
Otoh, Lebron can be a score first player but also has GOAT level court vision/passing for a non-PG. Doubling him would be pointless because he has no problem with passing up a shot and hitting the open man.
I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

[ralph_i_el]

that happens when anybody drives into the paint.. just basic help defense at the rim from a big man isnt a double team.

Are you saying that teams don't shade off-ball defenders towards the paint more often when LeBron has the ball?

Because if you are, you are retarded. If the ball-handler isn't a threat to get into the paint, the other defenders can stay closer to their man. Do you think teams have weak-side defenders ready to get into the paint to contest Marcelo Huertas like they do for LeBron? :facepalm

[tpols]

Are you saying that teams don't shade off-ball defenders towards the paint more often when LeBron has the ball?

Because if you are, you are retarded. If the ball-handler isn't a threat to get into the paint, the other defenders can stay closer to their man. Do you think teams have weak-side defenders ready to get into the paint to contest Marcelo Huertas like they do for LeBron? :facepalm

you said bringing help in the paint is the "same godamn thing" as a double team .. and i corrected you. Strawmanning with that awful huertas analogy isnt going to save your argument when OP is comparing GOATs to other GOATs.

[MP.Trey]

They don't double team on the perimeter because they know he'll find the open man. Plus he's not a huge threat shooting the ball so you can do single coverage until he gets some forward momentum.

They sure as hell stack defenders in the paint when LeBron gets there though. There will be 2-3 people in and around the paint most times LeBron is getting to the rim.

[ClipperRevival]

They don't double team on the perimeter because they know he'll find the open man. Plus he's not a huge threat shooting the ball so you can do single coverage until he gets some forward momentum.

They sure as hell stack defenders in the paint when LeBron gets there though. There will be 2-3 people in and around the paint most times LeBron is getting to the rim.

:biggums:

In THE era for spacing the floor and in THE era for small ball lineups?

[retaxis]

they do

[pauk]

...or maybe because they are aware he has one of the best court visions/passing skills in NBA history? Refusing to leave their man because they know he will crosscourt teleport a pass to them for wideopen shots all night long?

But they ALWAYS double-triple-quadruple-quintuple team/trap as soon as he blows by/slashes in from the perimeter... thats every single game, entire game.... they line up or dive in to take the charge/flop risking to send him to the FT line immediately or have him kick it out for a lower % shot (even if its wideopen shot).... because him in there is a guaranteed dunk/facial/layup/and1.... the single coverage at the perimeter is absolutely nothing, its a bait/trap for those guys BEHIND, they are inviting him, that guy infront of him is on an island, its those 4 guys behind thats the problem... didnt notice how always when he picks the ball up on the perimeter, he faces up and looks ONLY BEHIND his defender for a good amount of time? Sometimes even passes the ball back (as he doesnt want to make your life easy by bricking long shots)? He only observes the trap/help behind... that guy infront him is just a poor soul....

Whenever he is immediately double teamed 24-7 on the perimeter however that means he is on fire.

Thats the best way to "defend" Lebron, you just pick your poison... and pray to god...

[Kvnzhangyay]

Bron literally averages 1.6 more assists in his career than MJ, and the two of them played distinctly different roles in their respective teams offense for the majority of their careers

Your statement is retarded, even if it IS just a response to a bad thread



Exactly what context do you believe negates the relevance of the turnovers? The difference in roles surely wasn't a factor in your above statement so I'm curious

Along with what everyone else said in regards to passing, MJ is definetely a great passer. He's just not in the Lebron/Bird category.

Keep in mind that MJ played in an era with more 2-pointers, which are more accurate than 3 pointers so there naturally will be more assists/made shots, even if the expected value is the same.

[LostCause]

You talk about context, then don't even bother to include it lol.

....I mentioned the context that matters both ways, but for some odd reason you believe it's acceptable to use it as a double standard. Hence asking


One thing is pace. Faster pace=more assists.

Oh ok. Pace adjusted (Stealing ralphs numbers)
MJ averaged 7 assists per 100 possessions

LeBron averages 9.4 per 100 possessions

Turnovers
3.7 for Jordan
4.6 for Bron

With pace adjusted you can still say the same thing. If we remove an assist due to turnover for Bron, he still has a 1 assist career advantage on MJ. Pace adjusted



Second you have to look at the systems they played in. Jordan played in a system that optimized passing and getting the best shot which would lower his TOs. Lebron plays in a system where it's basically "run the offense for us".

Right, so you're bringing up the system now. Did the system matter when you implied Jordan didn't know how to pass, I'm positive you wouldn't have made that statement if Jordans career assists were higher now would you?

Anyway, Jordans pace-adjusted numbers BEFORE Phil? 7.5.
Pace-adjusted for the season Jordan played Lebron's role and was essentially the PG? 9.9 (89)


Third, Lebron has faced much better defensive teams, which would also help explain the turnovers.

This may be true in the Finals, but it's certainly debatable in the RS. Unless you have the evidence to suggest that Bron on average faced tougher D throughout his career than Jordan


Jordan is a score first player. Everyone in the gym knows that 90% of the time he's looking to score. It's much smarter to double him.
Otoh, Lebron can be a score first player but also has GOAT level court vision/passing for a non-PG. Doubling him would be pointless because he has no problem with passing up a shot and hitting the open man.
I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

What you have to explain to me is how any of that means Jordan doesn't know how to pass, when there's not a single metric nor is it the opinion of anyone but yourself that he wasn't a good passer.

Fact is, Lebron IS a more natural passer than Jordan. As you said, he's looking to pass more and Jordan is looking to attack by scoring more. However, Jordan was also a willing passer and is also one of the best NON-PG passers of all time, coaches and colleagues were straight up comparing him to Magic in 89 when he assumed PG duties. I think they'd know better than bankaii, wouldn't you?

tldr, this statement

In response to your shit thread, because unlike MJ he knows how to pass the ball.

was stupid, and not a single bit of your "context" proved it, even though you tried to use double standards

[bluechox2]

they dont double because bron has a terrible jump shot and lots of guys give bran a good inch or 2 blocking off the drive on most cases

[Duncan21formvp]

Because Lebron can't beat you. He needs other guys to make the big plays which Kyrie has done and Wade as well and Ray Allen in series where it is tied or he is down in them.

[TheWinningFam]

Because he's a better passer than jordan and will find the open man how do you not get this. http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/mjlol.png

[Bankaii]

It was a troll response to a troll thread that you obviously took more serious than I expected.

Obviously MJ is a great passer. But he's not on Lebron's level in that aspect. Period.

[3ball]

Obviously MJ is a great passer.



Jordan averaged 1.1 less assists than Lebron in the higher-competition playoffs, which is offset by less turnovers and time of possession - that leaves defensive rebounds as Lebron's only advantage:


CAREER STATISTICS:



Playoffs Per Game:



Jordan:. 33.4 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 apg.. 3.1 tov.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg.. 28.6 PER
Lebron:. 28.0 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.8 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 27.7 PER




Playoffs Per 100 Possessions:



Jordan:. 43.3 ppg.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg.. 28.6 PER
Lebron:. 36.4 ppg.. 2.2 oreb.. 9.4 dreb.. 8.8 apg.. 4.6 tov.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 27.7 PER




Finals Per Game:



Jordan:. 33.6 ppg.. 6.0 rpg.. 6.0 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.7 bpg.. 48.1 fg
Lebron:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



Notes: Lebron and Harden are the only non-point guards in the top 50 (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for 'time of possession' - in other words, time of possession is a POINT GUARD STAT and Lebron/Harden play point guard for their teams.. They lead their team in time of possession and rank ahead of numerous starting point guards.. For example, in the 2015 Finals, Lebron's time of possession was a preposterous 12.0 (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) minutes, or 50% higher than the regular season leader John Wall's 8.2 (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) minutes.

Given Lebron's status as a point guard with a point guard time of possession, his apg is AVERAGE, and his 1.5 assist edge over the off-ball Jordan is a severe UNDERACHIEVEMENT.

Also, the few times Jordan got to play point guard, he did so better than Lebron ever did, such as his 24 games at PG in 1989 (30/9/11 including 10 triple-doubles in 11 games), or when he was matched up with Magic in 1991 Finals (31/7/11).






MJ is not on Lebron's level at passing. Period.


Lebron employs a ball-dominant, point guard style, which gives him constant opportunity to get assists - nonetheless, Lebron's assist total is AVERAGE for someone with his point-guard-level time of possession (nba.com stats (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)), and this extra time with the ball makes his 1.5 assist edge over Jordan a severe underachievement.

Otoh, Jordan had superior passing ability because his assist averages were nearly equal to Lebron's despite having far lower time of possession (as an off-ball, SG).. MJ's comparable assist totals coupled with his lower turnovers and higher scoring frequency allowed him to produce more points per possession (ortg) than Lebron in the regular season, playoffs and Finals.

By producing more points for his team than Lebron AND being the best defender ever at his position, Jordan was a much better player than Lebron, with much better results.

[LostCause]

It was a troll response to a troll thread that you obviously took more serious than I expected.

So a shit post responding to a shit post

Pot meet kettle?


Obviously MJ is a great passer. But he's not on Lebron's level in that aspect. Period.

3ball seems to have an argument for that

[RRR3]

If we're talking about the current version of LeBron he doesn't get doubled on the perimeter because, as others have said, he's a willing passer and he's a bad shooter. The Warriors were sending doubles at LeBron constantly when he posted up in the 2016 finals when I watched though.

[RRR3]

The 2012 Finals is a great example of why doubling LeBron isn't necessarily a good strategy. The Thunder double teamed LeBron a lot that series (a change for the Heat from the previous series against the Celtics Wade was the one seeing the doubles). The Heat role players destroyed the Thunder that series. These two things aren't unrelated.

[Lebron23]

OP's been melting down since he started to posts in this forum.