Better playoff performer, a 33/6/6 guy or a 28/9/7 guy?

[Dray n Klay]

Let's hypothetically assume there are two basketball players. One averages 28/9/7, the other averages 33/6/6.



Which one would you say is better? IMO 3 rebounds + 1 assist > 5 points






There's diminishing returns once you get past 27-28 points, but there's no diminishing extra rebounds and assists to teammates.

[Annyong!]

Curry > LeBron

[GrapeApe]

Let's hypothetically assume there are two basketball players. One averages 28/9/7, the other averages 33/6/6.



Which one would you say is better? IMO 3 rebounds + 1 assist > 5 points






There's diminishing returns once you get past 27-28 points, but there's no diminishing extra rebounds and assists to teammates.

That makes zero sense, but whatever.

33/6/6 on great efficiency is better.

[brownmamba00]

33 ppg>

[Dray n Klay]

33 ppg>

So in other words you're a dumbass

[Nilocon165]

33 tbh

[InsanityKills]

28/9/7 guy without a doubt!


#AltLivesMatter

[Dray n Klay]

#FreeGus

[Dragonyeuw]

Let's hypothetically assume there are two basketball players. One averages 28/9/7, the other averages 33/6/6.


Which one would you say is better? IMO 3 rebounds + 1 assist > 5 points



There's diminishing returns once you get past 27-28 points,

33 points and between 12-18 points off assists is a total spread of 45 to 51 points. 28 points and between 14-21 points off assists is a total spread of 42 to 49 points.

45>42, 51>49.


More hypothetical numbers:

.568 TS > .567

.9 blocks at 6'6 >.9 blocks at 6'8

2.1 steals > 1.8 steals

3.0 turnovers at 35.6 USG > 3.5 turnovers at 32.0 USG

6>3

6/6 > 3/7

Dog feces> colluding

Please kill yourself now, and thanks for playing.

What a meltdown(saved you the trouble). :cheers:

[brownmamba00]

So in other words you're a dumbass
u mad bra thread backfire

[Dray n Klay]

33 points and between 12-18 points off assists is a total spread of 45 to 51 points. 28 points and between 14-21 points off assists is a total spread of 44 to 49 points.

45>44, 51>49.




So you admit the 28/9/7 guy and the 33/6/6 guy are both responsible for about the same production BUT the 28/9/7 also gets 50% more rebounds??


Think about it, you yourself proved that the 33/6/6 and 28/9/7 guy gets the same offensive production (46-47 points responsible for), BUT the 28/9/7 guy gets 50% more rebounds as well.



Thanks for making my point.


28/9/7 >>

[Dragonyeuw]

So you admit the 28/9/7 guy and the 33/6/6 guy are both responsible for about the same production BUT the 28/9/7 also gets 50% more rebounds??


Think about it, you yourself proved that the 33/6/6 and 28/9/7 guy gets the same offensive production (46-47 points responsible for), BUT the 28/9/7 guy gets 50% more rebounds as well.



Thanks for making my point.


28/9/7 >>

No-one gives a **** about 3 extra rebounds from a guy hypothetically 2 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier. The difference between 28 and 33ppg is the difference between a great scorer and a GOAT scorer. The difference between 6 rebounds and 9 rebounds is the difference between a good rebounder and a very good rebounder. And, a team can win a game and lose the rebounding battle, but no game has been won by a team scoring less points. So, points > rebounds.

Now please kill yourself, and I don't mean hypothetically.

[Dray n Klay]

No-one gives a **** about 3 extra rebounds from a guy hypothetically 2 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier.



Who said anything about Height and Weight? I never mentioned that in my OP, so why are you bringing it up?








I'm talking about two hypothetical players, one averages 28/9/7 , the other averages 33/6/6 in the playoffs.



Which is better?

[Dragonyeuw]

I'm melting down.



Yep.

[brownmamba00]

op getting bounced in his own thread:oldlol:

[MP.Trey]

I'm a huge LeBron fan but I'd take 33/6/6 every damn day assuming they have similar efficiency.

[ClipperRevival]

Love how OP rounded off higher for LeBron and lower for MJ. Way to keep it legit.

But here are their actual numbers:

LeBron (199 playoff games): 28.0 PPG, 27.7 PER, .478%, 8.8 RPG, 6.8 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 3.5 TO

Jordan (179 playoff games): 33.4 PPG, 28.6 PER, .487%, 6.4 RPG, 5.7 APG, 2.1 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 3.1 TO

[ClipperRevival]

So MJ gave you 5.4 more ppg on better efficiency with less turnovers in a more optimal style of play (less ball dominant and more off ball play).

The 2.4 rpg advantage can be attributed to LeBron's superior size. The 1.1 apg advantage is all but offset with his additional .4 TO and ball dominant style.

[ClipperRevival]

Another thing to keep in mind is that LeBron's numbers will decline as he leaves his prime. If we are doing MJ's numbers up until the age of 31, it's below:

(121 games - 1985-1995):

34.4 PPG, 29.2 PER, .499%, 6.7 RPG, 6.5 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 3.4 TO

[Dray n Klay]

So MJ gave you 5.4 more ppg on better efficiency with less turnovers in a more optimal style of play (less ball dominant and more off ball play).

The 2.4 rpg advantage can be attributed to LeBron's superior size. The 1.1 apg advantage is all but offset with his additional .4 TO and ball dominant style.


LOL the size advantage argument is dumb




Should we just discount every good rebounder who got rebounds just because of size?



Should we not care that Shaq got 9-10 more rebounds than Kobe just because of 'size'?

[Dray n Klay]

Another thing to keep in mind is that LeBron's numbers will decline as he leaves his prime. If we are doing MJ's numbers up until the age of 31, it's below:

(121 games - 1985-1995):

34.4 PPG, 29.2 PER, .499%, 6.7 RPG, 6.5 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 3.4 TO


Both (playoff) MJ and LeBron played 13 seasons



I'm simply comparing both their first 13 seasons, who cares what LeBron does later?

[PP34Deuce]

Smart attempt at basically asking would you rather have Jordan or Lebron.

one extra assist from the 28PPG player gives an extra 2-3 points to the teams box score. creates 30 or 31 points while giving you a potential extra possession with rebounding.

[ClipperRevival]

LOL the size advantage argument is dumb




Should we just discount every good rebounder who got rebounds just because of size?



Should we not care that Shaq got 9-10 more rebounds than Kobe just because of 'size'?

You can't be this dense. Shaq/Kobe played different positions. Heck, even MJ/LeBron played different positions. And LeBron plays the positions where he is expected to get a bit more rebounds because SF's are naturally bigger. He has 2 inches and about 40 lbs over MJ. Yeah, size doesn't matter. :rolleyes:

[ClipperRevival]

Both (playoff) MJ and LeBron played 13 seasons



I'm simply comparing both their first 13 seasons, who cares what LeBron does later?

Well, MJ played 3 seasons in college so after his 13th season, he was 35 and well past his physical prime. LeBron is still in his prime. So when it's all said and done, his numbers will decline. That's my point.

[Dray n Klay]

You can't be this dense. Shaq/Kobe played different positions. Heck, even MJ/LeBron played different positions. And LeBron plays the positions where he is expected to get a bit more rebounds because SF's are naturally bigger. He has 2 inches and about 40 lbs over MJ. Yeah, size doesn't matter. :rolleyes:


What's your point? A rebound is a rebound regardless of the players size.


LeBron got 3 extra possessions for his team due to rebounds


3*1.2 points per possession = 3.6 more points a game


And 1.1 assist * 2.3 points per basket = 2.5 points



3.6 points + 2.5 points = 6.1 points








Those 6.1 points LeBron generates more than offsets Jordans 5.4 more points




6.1 points > 5.4 points










LeBron is a better playoff performer than Jordan

[Dray n Klay]

Oh and ClipperRevival, you want to conviniently forget that Jordan played in a playoffs with an average of 10% more possessions than the playoffs LeBron played in? :oldlol:








This further gives LeBron a statistical edge

[ClipperRevival]

What's your point? A rebound is a rebound regardless of the players size.


LeBron got 3 extra possessions for his team due to rebounds


3*1.2 points per possession = 3.6 more points a game


And 1.1 assist * 2.3 points per basket = 2.5 points



3.6 points + 2.5 points = 6.1 points








Those 6.1 points LeBron generates more than offsets Jordans 5.4 more points




6.1 points > 5.4 points










LeBron is a better playoff performer than Jordan

:biggums: LOL.

[Dray n Klay]

:biggums: LOL.


So you agree LeBron > MJ?


Finally you see the light.

[ClipperRevival]

Oh and ClipperRevival, you want to conviniently forget that Jordan played in a playoffs with an average of 10% more possessions than the playoffs LeBron played in? :oldlol:








This further gives LeBron a statistical edge

That's fine. You are obviously a youngster who never saw MJ play so you are convinced no one could've been better than LeBron. Keep thinking that way. I'm not going to waste any more time.

[Dray n Klay]

That's fine. You are obviously a youngster who never saw MJ play so you are convinced no one could've been better than LeBron. Keep thinking that way. I'm not going to waste any more time.


I'm an unbiased fan


I don't care about Jordan or LeBron









But if the stats say LeBron is better than Jordan, who am I to disagree? :confusedshrug:

[Dragonyeuw]

Both (playoff) MJ and LeBron played 13 seasons



I'm simply comparing both their first 13 seasons, who cares what LeBron does later?

Oh we're talking about MJ and Lebron? You never mentioned those names in your OP. I thought this was all hypothetical.

[Dray n Klay]

Oh we're talking about MJ and Lebron? You never mentioned those names in your OP. I thought this was all hypothetical.


ClipperRevival brought them up, not me

:confusedshrug:



It seems people are ignoring about the hypotheticals I posted at the beginning of this thread.

[Dragonyeuw]

What's your point? A rebound is a rebound regardless of the players size.


LeBron got 3 extra possessions for his team due to rebounds


3*1.2 points per possession = 3.6 more points a game




Where is your statistical evidence that all of these extra possessions always led to points?

[ClipperRevival]

Where is your statistical evidence that all of these extra possessions always led to points?

He has none. He just made up his own formula. That's why I LOLed. Don't bother with this kid.

[Dragonyeuw]

ClipperRevival brought them up, not me

:confusedshrug:



It seems people are ignoring about the hypotheticals I posted at the beginning of this thread.

Don't really care what he brought up. In your first post you were only raising it as a hypothetical situation. So you had the opportunity to dismiss that this was another MJ/Bron comparison thread. But you didn't... so agenda exposed.

[Dragonyeuw]

He has none. He just made up his own formula. That's why I LOLed. Don't bother with this kid.

Oh believe me, I'm bored at work so this is killing time. There's no brain activity being expended on this waste of sperm.

[Dray n Klay]

Average points per possession of NBA teams IS 1.2 points



Average points per assist IS 2.3. (Some of those assists are for 3-pointers)





But keep acting like I made up those stats :oldlol:



It's not making Jordan look any better

[ClipperRevival]

Average points per possession of NBA teams IS 1.2 points



Average points per assist IS 2.3. (Some of those assists are for 3-pointers)





But keep acting like I made up those stats :oldlol:



It's not making Jordan look any better

That's fine. But why round off 2.4 to 3.0 rpg and why not account for the .4 additional TO? Anyways, all power to ya.

[Dray n Klay]

That's fine. But why round off 2.4 to 3.0 rpg and why not account for the .4 additional TO? Anyways, all power to ya.

Ok first answer this, who are your Top 5 playoff performers in NBA History?

[Dragonyeuw]

Average points per possession of NBA teams IS 1.2 points





I couldn't care less about the average ppp of other teams. I want you to prove that the 2.4 extra rebounds that Lebron provided for his playoff teams always led to a score. You can't.

What we can prove is that MJ scored 5 points more on better efficiency, assisted one less while spending his championship years in an offensive system which deflates personal assist numbers (and playing off-ball with another playmaker in Pippen who himself averaged 5-6 assists). All with higher usage but also managed to turn the ball over less while commanding more double teams than Lebron ever did.

What you deem 'excuses' are in actuality inconvenient facts.

[ClipperRevival]

Ok first answer this, who are your Top 5 playoff performers in NBA History?

LeBron is clearly in my top 5. Is that the answer you want? But no one touches MJ when it comes to coming up big when it mattered most. No one. It's not even close. Russell was the greatest winner but he couldn't carry an offense on his back.

I could bring up so many things that would destroy LeBron when compared to MJ but I've said all of that stuff many times in here. You'll learn them in due time.

[Dray n Klay]

LeBron is clearly in my top 5. Is that the answer you want? But no one touches MJ when it comes to coming up big when it mattered most. No one. It's not even close. Russell was the greatest winner but he couldn't carry an offense on his back.

I could bring up so many things that would destroy LeBron when compared to MJ but I've said all of that stuff many times in here. You'll learn them in due time.


I gave you overwhelming evidence for LeBron > Jordan as a playoff performer and you're STILL going with MJ?? :oldlol:









You're hopeless :facepalm

[LostCause]

What's your point? A rebound is a rebound regardless of the players size.


LeBron got 3 extra possessions for his team due to rebounds


3*1.2 points per possession = 3.6 more points a game


And 1.1 assist * 2.3 points per basket = 2.5 points



3.6 points + 2.5 points = 6.1 points








Those 6.1 points LeBron generates more than offsets Jordans 5.4 more points




6.1 points > 5.4 points










LeBron is a better playoff performer than Jordan


Lmao the **** is this garbage

There's no subtraction for turnovers here, and you also don't account for the fact Jordan is already quite a bit higher in points actually scored already so Bron is already compensating for that

[Dray n Klay]

Lmao the **** is this garbage

There's no subtraction for turnovers here, and you also don't account for the fact Jordan is already quite a bit higher in points actually scored already so Bron is already compensating for that


I also didn't account for Jordan having around 10% more possessions than LeBron in the playoffs



That would've made my point EVEN MORE in favor of LeBron

[LostCause]

You realize we already have metrics that show what you're trying to show here?

Almost all of them favor Jordan. So no matter what you try and account for, it all winds up the same unless you use a terribly biased/flawed system, which is what your prior one was

[Poetry]

Let's hypothetically assume there are two basketball players. One averages 28/9/7, the other averages 33/6/6.

In a few years, that 28 point average will drop down to 27, then 26, then maybe 25.

If you had asked this question when the guy averaging 33 for his career was 31-years-old, his stats would have been 34.4/6.7/6.5.

[Dray n Klay]

In a few years, that 28 point average will drop down to 27, then 26, then maybe 25.

If you had asked this question when the guy averaging 33 for his career was 31-years-old, his stats would have been 34.4/6.7/6.5.


It doesnt matter, I'm just comparing their first 13 seasons.


Why hold it against someone for playing more seasons?

[Poetry]

It doesnt matter, I'm just comparing their first 13 seasons.


Why hold it against someone for playing more seasons?

I'm not holding it against him, but you're trying to compare two different things.

If we looked at the first 13 years of Kareem's playoff career, his numbers would look like this:

28.1/13.1/3.7

But when you look at his career playoff numbers:

24.3/10.5/3.2.

[Dragonyeuw]

You realize we already have metrics that show what you're trying to show here?

Almost all of them favor Jordan. So no matter what you try and account for, it all winds up the same unless you use a terribly biased/flawed system, which is what your prior one was

Or just the kind of logic you'd expect from someone inbred, I'm thinking two siblings here. Can't be anyone this stupid without some bad genetic coding....

[Rojogaqu11]

On a purely objective and simple comparison, net points are always a more significant statistic than rebounds and even assists, regardless if these two could also be converted into points.

The end result a team strives towards is to make more points than the opponent. But rebounds and assists are only devices that may facilitate that end result.

All other things being equal, I would pick a player that can individually score 5 more points per game than a player who has 1 more assist and 3 more rebounds on average per game.

And this is the reason:

A player can manipulate his rebounds and assists to a certain extent.
This is why there are players who are regarded as "stat padders" or with "empty stats." In most cases, these players are very conspicuous in manipulating their playing style in order to accumulate a particular statistic. And because this manipulation can happen, these particular statistics lose their value as objective measurements of individual performance.

It could be said that points can also be padded in specific instances, but regardless of that possibility, unlike other statistics, they are central to a teams objective, which is to win. Points are the only statistic which directly affect or are counted towards a winning or losing performance.

On the other hand, assists rely on an additional player's ability to score, rather than the skill of the one who is attributed to, and are consequently more subjective as a measurement of individual performance. Rebounds are even more difficult to quantify in comparative assessments because they are contingent on either team's inability to score.

That is why two similar players will ultimately be distinguished from each other by their individual ability to add points to their team.
In this peculiar case of the OP, the difference in points is more than enough to make up for the slight difference in two lesser statistics. Rebounds and assists are excessively secondary and dependent on other components of a game to be able to translate them into a raw value as simple as points made.

[Dragonyeuw]

On a purely objective and simple comparison, net points are always a more significant statistic than rebounds and even assists, regardless if these two could also be converted into points.

The end result a team strives towards is to make more points than the opponent. But rebounds and assists are only devices that may facilitate that end result.

All other things being equal, I would pick a player that can individually score 5 more points per game than a player who has 1 more assist and 3 more rebounds on average per game.

And this is the reason:

A player can manipulate his rebounds and assists to a certain extent.
This is why there are players who are regarded as "stat padders" or with "empty stats." In most cases, these players are very conspicuous in manipulating their playing style in order to accumulate a particular statistic. And because this manipulation can happen, these particular statistics lose their value as objective measurements of individual performance.

It could be said that points can also be padded in specific instances, but regardless of that possibility, unlike other statistics, they are central to a teams objective, which is to win. Points are the only statistic which directly affect or are counted towards a winning or losing performance.

On the other hand, assists rely on an additional player's ability to score, rather than the skill of the one who is attributed to, and are consequently more subjective as a measurement of individual performance. Rebounds are even more difficult to quantify in comparative assessments because they are contingent on either team's inability to score.

That is why two similar players will ultimately be distinguished from each other by their individual ability to add points to their team.
In this peculiar case of the OP, the difference in points is more than enough to make up for the slight difference in two lesser statistics. Rebounds and assists are excessively secondary and dependent on other components of a game to be able to translate them into a raw value as simple as points made.

You realize you just made the OP's brain implode with this post, yeah?

[Dragonyeuw]

If any argument is to be made that a rebound is likely to translate to points, it would be on the offensive end of the floor. An offensive rebound directly leads to another opportunity for the offensive team to score. And guess what, MJ averaged 1.7 offensive rebounds to Lebron's 1.6 in the playoffs, in the regular season MJ averages 1.6, to Lebron's 1.2. Whoops....

[GrapeApe]

You realize we already have metrics that show what you're trying to show here?

Almost all of them favor Jordan. So no matter what you try and account for, it all winds up the same unless you use a terribly biased/flawed system, which is what your prior one was

The ironic thing about that is Lebron stans love advanced metrics...........except when it comes to comparing Lebron to Jordan. That's the only time advanced metrics are conspicuously absent from their argument. They'll talk about Lebron's PER and efficiency all day, but the minute you bring up Jordan it instantly shifts to raw stats.

[SamuraiSWISH]

If any argument is to be made that a rebound is likely to translate to points, it would be on the offensive end of the floor. An offensive rebound directly leads to another opportunity for the offensive team to score. And guess what, MJ averaged 1.7 offensive rebounds to Lebron's 1.6 in the playoffs, in the regular season MJ averages 1.6, to Lebron's 1.2. Whoops....
And that's with Mike being a guard, as opposed to a forward, who is 2 to 3 inches shorter and probably 40 pounds lighter.

So LeBron dominated the ball as a PG on offense. Yet only dishes out one more assist?

Is a whole tier lower as a scorer, given the monumental 5 ppg difference as well?!

:eek:

Oh and basically average the same amount of meaningful offensive rebounds? This as always was a no brainier.

33/6/6 is easily 28/9/7. Only people to disagree would be Oscar, LeBron, and pocket calculator dorks. Basketball fans know what's better in reality.

[Doranku]

On a purely objective and simple comparison, net points are always a more significant statistic than rebounds and even assists, regardless if these two could also be converted into points.

The end result a team strives towards is to make more points than the opponent. But rebounds and assists are only devices that may facilitate that end result.

All other things being equal, I would pick a player that can individually score 5 more points per game than a player who has 1 more assist and 3 more rebounds on average per game.

And this is the reason:

A player can manipulate his rebounds and assists to a certain extent.
This is why there are players who are regarded as "stat padders" or with "empty stats." In most cases, these players are very conspicuous in manipulating their playing style in order to accumulate a particular statistic. And because this manipulation can happen, these particular statistics lose their value as objective measurements of individual performance.

It could be said that points can also be padded in specific instances, but regardless of that possibility, unlike other statistics, they are central to a teams objective, which is to win. Points are the only statistic which directly affect or are counted towards a winning or losing performance.

On the other hand, assists rely on an additional player's ability to score, rather than the skill of the one who is attributed to, and are consequently more subjective as a measurement of individual performance. Rebounds are even more difficult to quantify in comparative assessments because they are contingent on either team's inability to score.

That is why two similar players will ultimately be distinguished from each other by their individual ability to add points to their team.
In this peculiar case of the OP, the difference in points is more than enough to make up for the slight difference in two lesser statistics. Rebounds and assists are excessively secondary and dependent on other components of a game to be able to translate them into a raw value as simple as points made.
Great post.

[Da_Realist]

And that's with Mike being a guard, as opposed to a forward, who is 2 to 3 inches shorter and probably 40 pounds lighter.

So LeBron dominated the ball as a PG on offense. Yet only dishes out one more assist?

Is a whole tier lower as a scorer, given the monumental 5 ppg difference as well?!

:eek:

Oh and basically average the same amount of meaningful offensive rebounds? This as always was a no brainier.

33/6/6 is easily 28/9/7. Only people to disagree would be Oscar, LeBron, and pocket calculator dorks. Basketball fans know what's better in reality.

Agreed. Numbers normalize things. What gets lost is that MJ could beat you different ways. There was no way to prepare for him. He kept everyone off balance. He may explode for 54 points and then beat you with his all around game 2 days later. How do you prepare for that? You can't. If you play him too close, he'll drive in and compromise your defense. If you guard against that and give him space, he would average an easy 41 against you. He could dominate the post area and carve up the defense by forcing a double which frees up his teammates.

Lebron is a lot more predictable in his approach and can be slowed down much more easily than MJ.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Agreed. Numbers normalize things. What gets lost is that MJ could beat you different ways. There was no way to prepare for him. He kept everyone off balance. He may explode for 54 points and then beat you with his all around game 2 days later. How do you prepare for that? You can't. If you play him too close, he'll drive in and compromise your defense. If you guard against that and give him space, he would average an easy 41 against you. He could dominate the post area and carve up the defense by forcing a double which frees up his teammates.*

Lebron is a lot more predictable in his approach and can be slowed down much more easily than MJ.

Well Jordan was playing chess and LeBron plays basic checkers offensively.

That's why when kids retort to ... look MJ is being guarded by PGs in those clips!!!

Why do you think that is students?

Because when they had the very long, athletic, or strong guys like Stacey Augmon, Dennis Rodman, Byron Russell, Dan Majerle, Gerald Wilkins, Nate McMillan, Tony Dumas, Clyde Drexler, Cliff Robinson guarding Jordan, he would zoom past them off the dribble and totally destroy the internal portion of the opposing teams defense by attacking the basket, dunking, and 1s, dishing and getting the other team in massive foul trouble.

He compromised the entire defense by attacking and finishing or even passing. Stuff that Kobe didn't pay attention to when emulating his game, or stuff physically he just couldn't take. Or a mentality with more heart and desire he couldn't replicate.

So for the defense to try and negate his blinding quickness for a 6'6 hyper athlete that was compromising the entire defense ... They had to put PG size defenders on him with smaller frames and more similar foot speed like KJ, Dumas, Payton, Derek Harper, and then Jordan playing chess would post them up and shoot right over them.

He wasn't limited offensively.

The way Kobe is with driving, attacking and taking contact.

Or

The way LeBron is with ISO skills, finesse footwork and jumper.

Thus 33 ppg > Everyone Else in History.