MJ crushed SG's more than LBJ does SF's, forces defenses to guard him w/ other positi

[3ball]

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An opposing coach can usually guard Lebron with his SF all game long.... and Lebron will get 25, maybe 30, but RARELY a 40 point game (once every 15 playoff games)

But with Jordan, an opposing coach must experiment guarding him with other positions like the PG or SF, because he no SG could contain him - he got hot too frequently against his matchup and a 40-point game was too much of a risk (1 every 3.89 playoff games)

Lebron doesn't alter the opponent's positional lineups like Jordan.. Additionally, the defense gets to stay at home rather than double team Lebron, since they can meet him at the rim and don't have to get the ball out of his hands to prevent a hot jumpshot.. Indeed, his jumper is broke - 33% career from 3-point range (RS and playoffs combined) and less than 40% from midrange for 10 of 13 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17) seasons.

I know, I know - Lebron just won the championship - but only via team-hopping to play with 2 superstars, so his rings deserve no more respect than if Karl Malone left the Jazz to play with Jordan and Dominique.. Since Lebron acquired extra supporting help via team-hopping to win his 3 rings, it's no surprise that Jordan's first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418432) 30% more PPG in the playoffs than Lebrons 3 rings, with equal assists.

[ralph_i_el]

.

I know, I know - Lebron just won the championship - but only via team-hopping to play with 2 superstars, so his rings deserve no more respect than if Karl Malone left the Jazz to play with Jordan and Dominique.. Since Lebron acquired extra supporting help via team-hopping to win his 3 rings, it's no surprise that Jordan's first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418432) 30% more PPG in the playoffs than Lebrons 3 rings, with equal assists.

Oh, so MJ is on the same tier as Kyrie and Love?

Good to know.

Shut it down folks, nothing to see here.

[3ball]

Oh, so MJ is on the same tier as Kyrie and Love?

Good to know.

Shut it down folks, nothing to see here.


Wade was arguably the best SG in the league in 2010, so the Jordan comparison works for Wade..

As for Kyrie - if you don't like comparing him to Jordan, we can replace Jordan with Isiah and the point remains the same: Lebron's rings were all achieved via team-hopping to play with 2 superstars.. heck, his 3rd options are among the best ever (Kevin Love was 2nd team all-nba in 2014 and Bosh was an 11-time all-star).

btw, i know that i'm right whenever i see a post like yours above - you make a mountain out of a mole hill in order to avoid addressing the main point (that Jordan destroyed his SG matchup more than Lebron does SF's, thus forcing coaches to experiment guarding Jordan with other positions).

[Smoke117]

1-9

[3ball]

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Example:

the Warriors can guard Lebron with Iggy all game long.. but they couldn't do that with Klay on Jordan.. However, if they put Iggy on Jordan, then Klay must guard the bigger Pippen or sit on the bench.

So Jordan's superior dominance over his matchup causes defensive matchup changes that Lebron's doesn't.

[ShawkFactory]

I'm not sure if you're a real person

[Doranku]

lol LeBron absolutely dominates every premiere SF in the league not named Kawhi Leonard. Durant, Melo, PG... I'd love to see his stats and combined record against these guys.

[retaxis]

What was Lebron's final averages against the 2nd best SFdefender in the league with Bogut/Green shadowing?

[3ball]

What was Lebron's final averages against the 2nd best SFdefender in the league with Bogut/Green shadowing?


24 ppg with 6 TO for the first 4 games

then Iggy got hurt (http://www.todaysfastbreak.com/nba-west/golden-state-warriors/iguodalas-injury-could-spell-death-for-the-warriors/), and Lebron turned into Jordan with 36 ppg and 3 TO for the final 3 games (those were MJ's averages for entire 91-93' Finals)

facts are facts....

now MJ would've been destroying Klay for 35+ in the first 3 games, just like he did Drexler in 92'... That would've forced Kerr to try Iggy on MJ, thus sending Klay to the bench or to guard the bigger Pippen.. Those are the kind of compromising spots that a defense will be in when trying to contain MJ and protect against the 1 in 3.89 chance he'll go off for a 40 point playoff game (1 in 15 for Lebron).

[TheWinningFam]

24 ppg with 6 TO for the first 4 games

then Iggy got hurt (http://www.todaysfastbreak.com/nba-west/golden-state-warriors/iguodalas-injury-could-spell-death-for-the-warriors/), and Lebron turned into Jordan with 36 ppg and 3 TO for the final 3 games (those were MJ's averages for entire 91-93' Finals)

facts are facts....

now MJ would've been destroying Klay for 35+ in the first 3 games, just like he did Drexler in 92'... That would've forced Kerr to try Iggy on MJ, thus sending Klay to the bench or to guard the bigger Pippen.. Those are the kind of compromising spots that a defense will be in when trying to contain MJ and protect against the 1 in 3.89 chance he'll go off for a 40 point playoff game (1 in 15 for Lebron).

Jordan played nowhere near as good of defenders that lebron has.. outside of payton.

And This argument that klay would be on the bench just further supports the fact that lebron played tougher competition with a lesser supporting cast, How would klay get sent to the bench for size when scottie pippen is barely an inch taller and a measly 10 pounds heavier? http://twitpic.com/show/thumb/96mhds

[3ball]

Jordan played nowhere near as good of defenders that lebron has.. outside of payton.
[I]


Rodman was a better defender than Kawhi
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[ralph_i_el]

Rodman was a better defender than Kawhi
.

So when MJ was winning chips his supporting casts were stacked :roll:

keep digging those holes

So 2010 Wade is as good as MJ now?

MJ=most overrated player ever then. He's no longer my #1 GOAT, now he's on the Wade/Dirk/KG/Kobe tier. You convinced me.

[DaHeezy]

Lol, at ISH voting 3ball as ISH's greatest poster. This guys is delusional. Between his obsession for Jordan and his hate for Lebron what other contributions has this guy made?

[ralph_i_el]

Wade was arguably the best SG in the league in 2010, so the Jordan comparison works for Wade..



btw, i know that i'm right whenever i see a post like yours above - you make a mountain out of a mole hill in order to avoid addressing the main point (that Jordan destroyed his SG matchup more than Lebron does SF's, thus forcing coaches to experiment guarding Jordan with other positions).

the bolded portion is literally all you do.

Also, you have officially said that 2010 Wade is comparable to MJ.
:bowdown: This MJ guy must be pretty above average then.

[3ball]

the bolded portion is literally all you do.

Also, you have officially said that 2010 Wade is comparable to MJ.
:bowdown: This MJ guy must be pretty above average then.
wade was comparable to jordan ONLY BECAUSE he was arguably the best SG in the league, just like Jordan was - but other than that, they aren't comparable - jordan is a few dimensions better

[3ball]

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Case example of Jordan shifting the positional matchups more than Lebron:

The Warriors could guard Lebron with Iggy all game.. But they couldn't do that with Klay on Jordan because Jordan can dominate Klay to a far greater extent.. Accordingly, the Warriors would want to put Iggy on Jordan for stretches, but that would send Klay to the bench or to defend the bigger Pippen.

Ultimately, Jordan's ability to shred the opposing SG forced coaches to experiment defensively more than they need to for Lebron.. This includes the aforementioned positional adjustments, but also double-teaming - Jordan had a great jumpshot, so defenses needed to get the ball out of his hands to prevent a hot jumpshot

(sidenote: defenses don't need to double MJ or Lebron to prevent their rim attack as much, because the defense can converge on them at the rim - so it's a hot JUMPSHOT compels a team to send consistent double-teams).

[TheWinningFam]

The Warriors could guard Lebron with Iggy all game.. But they couldn't do that with Klay on Jordan because Jordan can dominate Klay to a far greater extent..I honestly just want to know how you came to this conclusion automatically, can we get some stats or something. :confusedshrug:
Accordingly, the Warriors would want to put Iggy on Jordan for stretches, but that would send Klay to the bench or to defend the bigger Pippen.Yeah, send klay to the bench cuz he cant defend the 1 inch taller 5 pound heavier pippen. :facepalm


Ultimately, Jordan's ability to shred the opposing SG forced coaches to experiment defensively more than they need to for Lebron..The one time jordan faced the type of defensive individuals lebron does, (1996 payton.) It was the worse finals of his career, and it took rodman's 9/19/5 and elite defense to avoid a game 7 warriors like choke.

[3ball]

can we get some stats or something. :confusedshrug:


Jordan averaged 36 ppg on 53% against Drexler in 1992 Finals.. Based on this, he'd get 45+ against Klay.

Furthermore, the stats show that MJ averaged 34/7/6 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989) in 16 games against Reggie Lewis (starting SG vs. starting SG)..

Similarly, he averaged 35/8/8 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376404) in head-to-head matchups with DPOY Michael Cooper, who was far more athletic than Klay.... And he used to destroy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEnOf9okUdg&t=1m19s) superathlete SG Stacey Augmon.. Also, at 33 years old, he averaged 30 ppg on 50% against Nick Anderson and Penny Hardaway in ECF, including 45 in the closeout game.. There's plenty more examples of SG's - that was just a few.





I honestly just want to know how you came to this conclusion automatically


Ultimately, Jordan had a 40 point game every 3.89 playoff games, compared to 1 in 15 games for Lebron..

Jordan's ability to shred the opposing SG so severely forced coaches to experiment defensively more than they need for Lebron.. This includes the aforementioned positional adjustments (guarding Jordan with other positions), but also double-teaming - Jordan had a great jumpshot, so defenses needed to get the ball out of his hands to prevent a hot jumpshot

(sidenote: defenses don't need to double MJ or Lebron to prevent their rim attack as much, because the defense can converge on them at the rim - so it's a hot JUMPSHOT compels a team to send consistent double-teams).

[Smoke117]

1-9

[Prometheus]

:oldlol:

3ball

:oldlol:

[NBAGOAT]

Jordan averaged 36 ppg on 53% against Drexler in 1992 Finals.. Based on this, he'd get 45+ against Klay.

Furthermore, the stats show that MJ averaged 34/7/6 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989) in 16 games against Reggie Lewis (starting SG vs. starting SG)..

Similarly, he averaged 35/8/8 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376404) in head-to-head matchups with DPOY Michael Cooper, who was far more athletic than Klay.... And he used to destroy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEnOf9okUdg&t=1m19s) superathlete SG Stacey Augmon.. Also, at 33 years old, he averaged 30 ppg on 50% against Nick Anderson and Penny Hardaway in ECF, including 45 in the closeout game.. There's plenty more examples of SG's - that was just a few.



Ultimately, Jordan had a 40 point game every 3.89 playoff games, compared to 1 in 15 games for Lebron..

Jordan's ability to shred the opposing SG so severely forced coaches to experiment defensively more than they need for Lebron.. This includes the aforementioned positional adjustments (guarding Jordan with other positions), but also double-teaming - Jordan had a great jumpshot, so defenses needed to get the ball out of his hands to prevent a hot jumpshot

(sidenote: defenses don't need to double MJ or Lebron to prevent their rim attack as much, because the defense can converge on them at the rim - so it's a hot JUMPSHOT compels a team to send consistent double-teams).

I will make a mountain out of mole hill. What evidence do you have for an outrageous claim like this. Klay's a good defender and even if Drexler is better, he's not that remarkable on defense. By this logic, Jordan must've put up 50+ everytime he faced off vs a subpar defender like Reggie Miller(newsflash he didn't because basketball doesn't work that way and isn't that simple).

[jrjim]

SG's in Jordans time were 6'3 white guys. Congratulations on beating guys I see at the YMCA

[ralph_i_el]

wade was comparable to jordan ONLY BECAUSE he was arguably the best SG in the league, just like Jordan was - but other than that, they aren't comparable - jordan is a few dimensions better

Was MJ even better than Clyde Drexler? :roll:

all your arguments are either really dumb, or cherry-picked bullshit. Now you know how it feels.

[egokiller]

I will make a mountain out of mole hill. What evidence do you have for an outrageous claim like this. Klay's a good defender and even if Drexler is better, he's not that remarkable on defense. By this logic, Jordan must've put up 50+ everytime he faced off vs a subpar defender like Reggie Miller(newsflash he didn't because basketball doesn't work that way and isn't that simple).

The burden of proof isn't on 3ball because the whole concept of proving MJ's dominance as GOAT is not required. It's already been done. One needs to DISPROVE that Jordan WOULDN'T do what is suggested against Klay, not prove why he would.

[ralph_i_el]

The burden of proof isn't on 3ball because the whole concept of proving MJ's dominance as GOAT is not required. It's already been done. One needs to DISPROVE that Jordan WOULDN'T do what is suggested against Klay, not prove why he would.

:facepalm logic fail.

Wilt would score 2000 points a game today. You can't prove me wrong.
God is real too:rolleyes:

[3ball]

What evidence do you have for an outrageous claim like this (that Jordan would average 40 on Klay).


He's done it before to better players, athletes and defenders, such as Drexler (92 Finals), Ron Harper (1988 1st Round) and Dennis Johnson (1986 1st Round..

But at a minimum, Jordan would average the same 34 ppg that he averaged against all SG's for his entire playoff career - this average forced every coach to experiment guarding him with other positions like the PG or SF..

Otoh, Lebron doesn't destroy his matchup nearly as much, so you can guard him with Iggy, Pierce or Hayward all game.






By this logic, Jordan must've put up 50+ everytime he faced off vs a subpar defender like Reggie Miller(newsflash he didn't because basketball doesn't work that way and isn't that simple).


He got 50+ in the playoffs more than any other player ever.. But at a minimum, he'd average the same 34 ppg that he averaged against all SG's for his entire playoff career - this average required every coach to experiment guarding him with other positions like the PG or SF..

In Klay's case, he would get destroyed the same way Jordan destroyed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCSGPvnbW3k&t=2m16s) Dale Ellis, who plays similar to Klay, only better.. Klay is also a little like Reggie Lewis, whom Jordan destroyed for 34/7/6 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989) in head-to-head matchups (starting SG vs. starting SG)..

Jordan also averaged 35/8/8 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376404) in head-to-head matchups with DPOY Michael Cooper, who was far more athletic than Klay.... And he used to destroy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEnOf9okUdg&t=1m19s) superathlete SG Stacey Augmon.. Also, at 33 years old, he averaged 30 ppg on 50% against Nick Anderson and Penny Hardaway in ECF, including 45 in the closeout game.
.

[egokiller]

:facepalm logic fail.

Wilt would score 2000 points a game today. You can't prove me wrong.
God is real too:rolleyes:

Wrong. Jordan doesn't need to prove anything to you. He's already viewed as GOAT by the majority and it doesn't matter if your favorite player is not viewed as GOAT by the majority. All you can do is sit there and accept it.