Lebron and Double teaming

[BigKAT]

I keep hearing from people here that Lebron wasn't double teamed like Kobe, Or MJ, or Shaq or Hakeem or whomever.

A thought came to my head.

Is it possible, just maybe, that teams don't double team him because he's such a transcendent passer? I mean, I wouldn't double team Chris Paul. Or Magic. Or Stockton, or Nash. Because I KNOW that they are finding that open guy. And that it's a free run to the hoop.

[ralph_i_el]

Yes BigKAT, and it's fairly obvious.

(3Ball garbage nonsense copypasta incoming)

[BigKAT]

Yes BigKAT, and it's fairly obvious.

(3Ball garbage nonsense copypasta incoming)

I know right?
I feel like I'm poking a mouse with cheese here.

[ralph_i_el]

I know right?
I feel like I'm poking a mouse with cheese here.

haha good analogy. More like a rat though.

Keep posting buddy! You're posts are relevant and though provoking.

(If you're Jeff....good idea.)

[BeastMode24]

none of the guys you listed are elite scorers so of course you would't double team them. you want to force those guys to score to beat you. however with the likes of kobe, curry, jordan, durant, etc if you don't double they will just kill you. Also as far as finding the open guy- Curry does an excellent job of that. guys like draymond, iggy, and harrison barnes shot nothing but wide open shots because of all the attention Curry drew.

[3ball]

I wouldn't double team Chris Paul. Or Magic. Or Stockton, or Nash.



:whatever: ... Lebron isn't on Magic's level of passing, or CP3 or Nash.

Lebron's 6.8 APG in playoffs is more in line with Bird (6.5) or Jordan (5.7), rather than the 10-12 APG that Nash, CP3, and Magic averaged.

So quit dreaming and stay in reality

[TheWinningFam]

:whatever: ... Lebron isn't on Magic's level of passing, or CP3 or Nash.

Lebron's 6.8 APG in playoffs is more in line with Bird (6.5) or Jordan (5.7), rather than the 10-12 APG that Nash, CP3, and Magic averaged.

So quit dreaming and stay in reality

Lebron is on par with magic/stockon, they've said it themselves and anaylst compare them.

The 6.8 apg can easily be attributed to also having to be the team's best scorer rebounder/defender/rim protector. Something magic and other's did not have to do to achieve their 11+ apg.

[iamgine]

I keep hearing from people here that Lebron wasn't double teamed like Kobe, Or MJ, or Shaq or Hakeem or whomever.

A thought came to my head.

Is it possible, just maybe, that teams don't double team him because he's such a transcendent passer? I mean, I wouldn't double team Chris Paul. Or Magic. Or Stockton, or Nash. Because I KNOW that they are finding that open guy. And that it's a free run to the hoop.
Another guy who was also at least as good a passer and the most similar to Lebron was Bird. Did teams double team him?

[FreezingTsmoove]

Lebron gets double teamed on the drive every game........

Almost Every player in the nba gets doubled this isnt 1 on 1 basketball

[MP.Trey]

:whatever: ... Lebron isn't on Magic's level of passing, or CP3 or Nash.

Lebron's 6.8 APG in playoffs is more in line with Bird (6.5) or Jordan (5.7), rather than the 10-12 APG that Nash, CP3, and Magic averaged.

So quit dreaming and stay in reality
You say he has Bird level passing like that's a bad thing. Bird's one of the best passers the game's ever seen, especially from the forward position.

[Hoopz2332]

lebron always get double teamed even what looks like 1 on 1 defense against him still has off side help waiting for him to make his move. The thing is when you double team lebron extra hard, he will pick you apart...he's too good of a passer.

[Kblaze8855]

Nothing against the OP since im well aware it does get discussed but....

That teams would hesitate to double one of the most pass first scorers of his caliber ever.....is even discussed? It kinda makes us look bad. Of course Lebron will carve you up if you double. He might pass it 30 times in a row with zero hesitation....

Of course that plays a major major role in how teams defend him. And its so obvious it shouldnt need to be said. You play lebron straight until he forces otherwise because his teams surround him with shooters he wont hesitate to find. Nobody could have failed to notice. We just have a few people who are willing to deny the obvious for the sake of hating.

You try to stay home when possible vs Lebron for the same reason you foul Deandre Jordan before he can dunk it.

Common sense and playing the odds.

Heavily contested pullup jumper or meet him in the lane with a bigman....vs....a wide open 3 Kyrie/Love/Bosh/Miller/Mo/Jr/whoever it is over the years can make 50% of the time?

**** it. Let him pullup. He will make same...but hopefully get nobody else going. Its a solid plan when his shot isnt falling and we have been watching teams do it for 10+ years now.

[Orlando Magic]

It's not JUST because he's an elite passer, although there is that. It's also because his jumper has gotten progressively more busted as the years go on, so why double him unless he's near the basket?

You can't even begin to accuse me of being a LeBron hater. I get accused of the opposite all the time. I just call it like I see it, which unfortunately for people that don't like LeBron, usually works to the detriment of their agenda.

[Annyong!]

I keep hearing from people here that Lebron wasn't double teamed like Kobe, Or MJ, or Shaq or Hakeem or whomever.

A thought came to my head.

Is it possible, just maybe, that teams don't double team him because he's such a transcendent passer? I mean, I wouldn't double team Chris Paul. Or Magic. Or Stockton, or Nash. Because I KNOW that they are finding that open guy. And that it's a free run to the hoop.
This is not an original thought.

[KnittingRyu]

Maybe LeBron isn't double teamed because his teams are stacked and it doesn't make sense to leave guys open. LeBron used to be double teamed until he started colluding.

[Hoopz2332]

overly doubling/sending help/trapping lebron leads to this

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/un52Mv2nus8edAhr-anrj50x_3E=/1000x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3745846/hawks_bad_1.0.gif

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/_lgJ1U0hxg3mpOKtg9ytozDJqnA=/1000x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3745854/hawks_bad_2.0.gif

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/CdpkPky5kwnTnUv23q0gvjGU2PY=/1000x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3745860/hawks_bad_3.0.gif

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/v9txpH0_7BVrSeqpik4PD7BTczY=/1000x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3745870/hokey_pokey.0.gif

[Hoopz2332]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2746069/lepass3.gif

[BigKAT]

overly doubling/sending help/trapping lebron leads to this

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/un52Mv2nus8edAhr-anrj50x_3E=/1000x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3745846/hawks_bad_1.0.gif

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/_lgJ1U0hxg3mpOKtg9ytozDJqnA=/1000x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3745854/hawks_bad_2.0.gif

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/CdpkPky5kwnTnUv23q0gvjGU2PY=/1000x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3745860/hawks_bad_3.0.gif

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/v9txpH0_7BVrSeqpik4PD7BTczY=/1000x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3745870/hokey_pokey.0.gif

I think this needs to go into sticky.
Because this 'Lebron never gets double teamed' is a recurring theme.

[KnittingRyu]

I think this needs to go into sticky.
Because this 'Lebron never gets double teamed' is a recurring theme.
First, a few gifs does not demonstrate a larger pattern.

Second, the gifs also demonstrate how great his help is.

[egokiller]

I keep hearing from people here that Lebron wasn't double teamed like Kobe, Or MJ, or Shaq or Hakeem or whomever.

A thought came to my head.

Is it possible, just maybe, that teams don't double team him because he's such a transcendent passer? I mean, I wouldn't double team Chris Paul. Or Magic. Or Stockton, or Nash. Because I KNOW that they are finding that open guy. And that it's a free run to the hoop.

The reason why people are pointing out single coverage on lebron as being effective without need to double team is because that's exactly what Iggy and Kawhi did, and it was so effective they each obtained a FMVP in the process.

What player in the history of the game has done to MJ, Shaq or Hakeem what Iggy and Kawhi did to Lebron, and that is use single coverage and come away with FMVP award for doing it so effectively?

[Hoopz2332]

First, a few gifs does not demonstrate a larger pattern.

lebron is always double teamed..even the d you think is 1 on
1
..for example

James finished with 20 points on 22 shots, down from the 41 points and 35.7 field goal attempts per game he averaged in the series' opening three battles. Maybe fatigue was a factor, and playing a grueling third game in five days will make it one. But the Warriors shifted their coverage, too. They didn't let James pound away in isolation or post up with freedom. If Andre Iguodala wasn't the primary defender (and even when he was), Golden State sent help from all angles. The Warriors walled off the paint and treated every other Cavalier much like David Blatt has instructed his team to treat Draymond Green, Iguodala and Harrison Barnes.

Curry flew in off Matthew Dellavedova. Klay Thompson ignored Iman Shumpert and J.R. Smith. Green left whichever Cavs big he was supposed to body on the glass. When Curry's man screened for James, hoping to force a switch or the flimsy hedge that broke Golden State's back in Game 3, the Warriors trapped him, squeezing a pass to a weaker threat.

Here's a closer look at how the Warriors turned this series around, and returned the NBA Finals to reality.

In this first quarter drive by LeBron, Shaun Livingston (who had one hell of a game) doesn't follow his man, Smith, as he cuts through the paint. Instead, Livingston stops to help Iguodala double the ball. This play ended with James passing out to Dellavedova on the wing, and him missing a pretty good look.


http://www.sportsonearth.com/assets/images/5/8/2/130191582/cuts/Game4_2_fjen01za_85k0ayge.jpg

In the fourth quarter we saw more of the same, with Livingston (who was the game's only player to log the entire final 12 minutes) purposefully drifting off Dellavedova to form a wall on the strong side. James eventually slips cross-court genius to his point guard, between Iguodala and Thompson, but the result is the same: clank.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/assets/images/6/6/0/130191660/cuts/Game4_1_1ea7w4g4_yildatai.jpg




Every player wearing a blue jersey has at least one foot in the paint. Iguodala, Livingston and Curry are completely inside it. This example, more than any other, embodies what the Warriors were all about with their back against the wall.



http://www.sportsonearth.com/assets/images/3/8/4/130191384/cuts/Game4_4_xrlv2mxs_h40efh6f.jpg









Second, the gifs also demonstrate how great his help is.

no, they dont look great when lebron is sitting

[Hoopz2332]

The reason why people are pointing out single coverage on lebron as being effective without need to double team is because that's exactly what Iggy and Kawhi did,


they didn't guard lebron 1 on1 especially when they have the help/cheater/roamer waiting for him. See my above post

[ShawkFactory]

First, a few gifs does not demonstrate a larger pattern.

Second, the gifs also demonstrate how great his help is.
How's that?

They're NBA players making open jumpers

[tpols]

i think what people are usually getting at when they bring up Lebron and single teams / sagging, is for comparison as scorers to others.. that is a common debate around here, Lebron vs X for whose better scorer.. yes it should be taken in that lebron is a very good passer. it is a testament to defenses that bron only averages 6 or 7 assists with the time of possession with the ball being so high.. they play him as a passer first, his scoring is secondary off that.

[Hoopz2332]

i think what people are usually getting at when they bring up Lebron and single teams / sagging, is for comparison as scorers to others.. that is a common debate around here, Lebron vs X for whose better scorer..


there is no debate...maybe if other scorers looked to pass more they could be the dual threat (passing and scoring) that lebron is and what makes him unique and able to impact the game outside of direct scoring.


The Risks of Doubling LeBron James

While the Magic are a talented but young, still-in-transition team, coach Jacque Vaughn employed a rather complicated coverage when it came to James in the post. Rather than have a guard dig down from the three-point line to shade James away from the middle of the floor, Vaughn had an extra defender from the weakside come over to the ball-side of the paint

[Smoke117]

How's that?

They're NBA players making open jumpers

Haha...my thought exactly. It was greatness for a role player to hit a wide open shot? :lol

[BigKAT]

Haha...my thought exactly. It was greatness for a role player to hit a wide open shot? :lol

San antonio makes a living off that simple concept, open shots tend to go in.

[Hoopz2332]

I think this needs to go into sticky.
Because this 'Lebron never gets double teamed' is a recurring theme.

its a myth by those who can't deal with the fact that lebron is a better scorer than guys that can supposedly do it all on offense because of their higher skillset:lol

[34-24 Footwork]

If you had Bosh, Love, Wade, Kyrie and Ray Allen spotting up in the corner somewhere, theres not reason you wouldn't get assists being the primary ball handler. It may be literally impossible to not rack up assists.

Lol @ how stupid the Hawks defense is. Kyle Korver straight up LEFT J.r Smith wide open. Lol. Can't make this shit up.

[34-24 Footwork]

its a myth by those who can't deal with the fact that lebron is a better scorer than guys that can supposedly do it all on offense because of their higher skillset:lol

Kyrie is a better scorer than Lebron. Why can't people like you deal with that? Lol.

[Hoopz2332]

Kyrie is a better scorer than Lebron. Why can't people like you deal with that? Lol.


Kyrie

20.8 ppg

.505 efg

.555 TS

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html




Lebron

27.2 ppg

.532 efg

.581 TS

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

[34-24 Footwork]

Kyrie

20.8 ppg

.505 efg

.555 TS

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html




Lebron

27.2 ppg

.532 efg

.581 TS

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

Go watch a game, nerd.

[Hoopz2332]

Go watch a game, nerd.

I did and as the stats show and prove, lebron scores at a higher rate and eff even with a higher volume of shots.

http://i.imgur.com/NfuzqTu.jpg

[Hoopz2332]

look at the attention he's drawing...the double and help is just waiting


http://i0.wp.com/espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/finals-7.gif

[OldSchoolBBall]

Lebron is a better and more willing passer than guys like Kobe or Jordan were, but that is not why he sees substantially fewer double teams. He sees far fewer hard doubles because he has played his prime in the wide-open, full spacing era where the 3-ball is prevalent, and his teams have always surrounded him with 2-4 guys on the court at any time who could make the 3 at a 40+% clip. Guys like Kobe and especially Jordan didn't have that luxury.

He is also, of course, a less dangerous scorer than those guys were, especially MJ.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron is a better and more willing passer than guys like Kobe or Jordan were, but that is not why he sees substantially fewer double teams. He sees far fewer hard doubles because he has played his prime in the wide-open, full spacing era where the 3-ball is prevalent, and his teams have always surrounded him with 2-4 guys on the court at any time who could make the 3 at a 40+% clip. Guys like Kobe and especially Jordan didn't have that luxury.

He is also, of course, a less dangerous scorer than those guys were, especially MJ.


Notice all the MJ tards suddenly becoming favorable to Bean again because Bron is nipping at his heels? :lol

[tpols]

Notice all the MJ tards suddenly becoming favorable to Bean again because Bron is nipping at his heels? :lol

what he's saying is true though.. kobe played with pau down low, bynum down low, artest a group decidedly worse at spacing and shooting then the battier's, mike millers, ray allens, and even Chris Bosh's that were on the Heat.. it would be dumb to not compliment lebron's strengths with shooting / spacing, so i dont know why youd deny that.. just as it would be dumb to not give kobe and mj some in and out post players they can work the midrange with.. idk why that's got your panties in a bunch .. but have at it i guess.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Notice all the MJ tards suddenly becoming favorable to Bean again because Bron is nipping at his heels? :lol

I'm not favorable to Kobe - -Lebron is clearly better than him. But Kobe at his best was a more dangerous scorer. Note that that is different from being a more consistent scorer.

[juju151111]

I'm not favorable to Kobe - -Lebron is clearly better than him. But Kobe at his best was a more dangerous scorer. Note that that is different from being a more consistent scorer.
How wjen LJ has more 30+,40+ games in the playoffs then him. It seems LJ is the most explosive.

[I<3NBA]

lol. if you watch every game, every time Lebron is on the floor, all 5 opposing player's eyes are on him ALL the time.

if you look at the GIFs, all of them are ready to converge on him anytime he drives. what's more, Pop once said their team defense was oriented to stopping Lebron. other coaches have said it takes an entire team to defend Lebron. not "double team," ENTIRE TEAM.

if you look at how far opposing players sag off their man just to give attention to Lebron, you will see just how laughably idiotic the idea of Lebron not being double teamed is.

yeah, he's not being double teamed because it's the entire opposing team guarding him :lol

[Hoopz2332]

Lebron is a better and more willing passer than guys like Kobe or Jordan were,

this is true





his teams have always surrounded him with 2-4 guys on the court at any time who could make the 3 at a 40+% clip. Guys like Kobe and especially Jordan didn't have that luxury.

BS! Are we forgetting snipers and big time clutch 3pt shooters like Rick Fox, Horry, Fisher, Paxson, Kerr etc...




He is also, of course, a less dangerous scorer than those guys were, especially MJ.

MJ? yes.... but Kobe? hell no:roll:

[Hoopz2332]

Notice all the MJ tards suddenly becoming favorable to Bean again because Bron is nipping at his heels? :lol

that Lebron/Bird thread was proof enough of this:lol

[34-24 Footwork]

Thread is full of gifs of a 6'8 guy throwing passes while looking over the top of defenses.

Shit's hilarious :lol

[BigKAT]

Thread is full of gifs of a 6'8 guy throwing passes while looking over the top of defenses.

Shit's hilarious :lol

Sure because Yao Ming, Shaq and Kwame Brown averaged 7 assists per game.

Come on man get that weak stuff out of here.

[34-24 Footwork]

Sure because Yao Ming, Shaq and Kwame Brown averaged 7 assists per game.

Come on man get that weak stuff out of here.

Lmao. Yao Ming, Shaq and Kwame were among the ELITE point forwards for their organizations. They handled most of the ball handling duties just like Bron. Not sure why their numbers are different. So I agree with you.

[34-24 Footwork]

Brb....going to youtube to search "Yao Ming passing highlights" and surely indulge in great basketball discussion on this forum.

[Hoopz2332]

Lmao. Yao Ming, Shaq and Kwame were among the ELITE point forwards for their organizations. They handled most of the ball handling duties just like Bron. Not sure why their numbers are different. So I agree with you.


:wtf:

[BigKAT]

Lmao. Yao Ming, Shaq and Kwame were among the ELITE point forwards for their organizations. They handled most of the ball handling duties just like Bron. Not sure why their numbers are different. So I agree with you.


...

Delete your account man.
Do it now.

[34-24 Footwork]

Ahhh. Sarcasm is lost on people that dont watch basketball games. Not surprised :lol

[ShawkFactory]

If you had Bosh, Love, Wade, Kyrie and Ray Allen spotting up in the corner somewhere, theres not reason you wouldn't get assists being the primary ball handler. It may be literally impossible to not rack up assists.

Lol @ how stupid the Hawks defense is. Kyle Korver straight up LEFT J.r Smith wide open. Lol. Can't make this shit up.
I could see how that would be a nice train of thought for a Lebron hater, but his assist numbers in Cleveland in his first stint were actually higher or right on par with his time in Miami and these last 2 years in Cleveland.

[34-24 Footwork]

I could see how that would be a nice train of thought for a Lebron hater, but his assist numbers in Cleveland in his first stint were actually higher or right on par with his time in Miami and these last 2 years in Cleveland.

I dont hate Lebron nor do i refute anything you've mentioned, little man. He's a great passer as Magic Johnson was as the primary ballhandler at that size. Not sure why your panties are in a bunch.

[ShawkFactory]

I dont hate Lebron nor do i refute anything you've mentioned, little man. He's a great passer as Magic Johnson was as the primary ballhandler at that size. Not sure why your panties are in a bunch.
Your comments kind of say otherwise but whatever. Nobodies panties are in a bunch here :confusedshrug:

[BigKAT]

Ahhh. Sarcasm is lost on people that dont watch basketball games. Not surprised :lol

Sarcasm or not aside, panties aside as well.

Who are your favorite non guard-passers in the league right now?

Mine, in no particular order-

Blake Griffin
Lebron James
Draymond Green
Marc Gasol
Boris Diaw

[Paul George 24]

I think this needs to go into sticky.
Because this 'Lebron never gets double teamed' is a recurring theme.
IT'S WEAK,COMPARE TO JORDAN'S FACE

[BigKAT]

IT'S WEAK,COMPARE TO JORDAN'S FACE

:lol

[tmacattack33]

:whatever: ... Lebron isn't on Magic's level of passing, or CP3 or Nash.

Lebron's 6.8 APG in playoffs is more in line with Bird (6.5) or Jordan (5.7), rather than the 10-12 APG that Nash, CP3, and Magic averaged.

So quit dreaming and stay in reality

Wow...what a terrible post. And i think he is serious about all that.

[3ball]

.
So Jordan is doubled way more AND he still scores 6 ppg more in the playoffs, with better efficiency across the board (ts, fg, ortg)?

GOAT :bowdown:

[Paul George 24]

:lol
JORDAN ALWAYS GETTING TRIPLE TEAMED IN HIS BULLS DAYS,AND LECHOKE ??????:roll:

[BigKAT]

.
So Jordan is doubled way more AND he still scores 6 ppg more in the playoffs, with better efficiency across the board (ts, fg, ortg)?

GOAT :bowdown:

No one here is claiming otherwise.

[Paul George 24]

Sarcasm or not aside, panties aside as well.

Who are your favorite non guard-passers in the league right now?

Mine, in no particular order-

Blake Griffin
Lebron James
Draymond Green
Marc Gasol
Boris Diaw
so weak ...............:facepalm

[Paul George 24]

No one here is claiming otherwise.
face it..............lechoke will never been goat :banana: