Lebron fans: this response shuts down "1-9" nonsense

[3ball]

.
During Jordan's early Bulls career, none of his 2nd options were anywhere NEAR top 3 players at their position (all-stars), and the Eastern Conference was the toughest it's ever been.

Otoh, during Lebron's first tenure with the Cavs, two of his 2nd options were all-stars and his conference was all-time weak.

So MJ's 1-9 is explained by a weak supporting cast in a tough conference (imagine the current Sixers cast in the WESTERN conference), and this tougher situation explains why his first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418432) 30% more PPG in the playoffs than Lebron, with equal assists.
.

[TheWinningFam]

Still 1-9

[3ball]

Still 1-9


Still

During Jordan's first 5 seasons, none of his 2nd options were anywhere NEAR top 3 players at their position (all-stars), and the Eastern Conference was the toughest it's ever been.

Otoh, during Lebron's first 5 seasons, two of his 2nd options were all-stars and his conference was all-time weak.

So MJ's 1-9 is explained by a weak supporting cast in a tough conference (imagine the current Sixers cast in the WESTERN conference), and this tougher situation also explains why his first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418432) 30% more PPG in the playoffs than Lebron, with equal assists.

[Uncle Drew]

It doesn't shut down anything, it just makes you look like a fool.

[Smoke117]

1-9

[egokiller]

Only morons who have beta mindsets try to claim 1-9 somehow makes Lebron gain an edge over Jordan.

Let's face it, lebron couldn't get around 6th all time without team hopping and collusion while playing in a weak eastern conference plus he has multiple failures in the finals. This is why he will never touch MJ.

[KobesFinger]

My first day back since the season ended and you're still here doing this?

[3ball]

It doesn't shut down anything, it just makes you look like a fool.


https://media.giphy.com/media/13vnojHzuReWE8/giphy.gif

[Uncle Drew]

Your double standards are amazing though.

All-star =/= top 3 in position
Toughest Eastern Conference =/= making the playoffs with a 38-44 record.

[Uncle Drew]

https://media.giphy.com/media/13vnojHzuReWE8/giphy.gif
Says the guy who's making threads because people are posting 1-9 on the internet.

L.

[3ball]

My first day back since the season ended and you're still here doing this?
why did Jordan's first 3 rings require 30% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418432) more PPG in the playoffs than Lebron, with equal assists???????

how do you explain jordan not having any all-stars during his first 5 seasons while Lebron had 2?... how do you explain lebron playing in a weak conference and jordan playing in a tough one?

oh wait - those last 2 are the answers to the first 1

[Smoke117]

The fact that he doesn't realize we are just saying 1-9 because we are just sick of his endlessly repetitive threads is just sad.

Oh and you missed one of the biggest dipshits right here when you were banning trolls and spammers.

[MP.Trey]

First of all, who was the second all star in LeBron's first 5 seasons, I only see Big Z in 2005. Was it Drew Gooden? Anderson Varejao? Daniel Gibson? Larry Hughes? Anyone else on his star studded rosters?

Now that you've been called out on your lies, second of all is why does this man cause you so much grief? You could be enjoying your life, you don't even watch basketball anymore (which obviously gives you no credit to be able to differentiate the two). Why do you spend so much time researching a topic with these bullshit numbers when you won't even take the time to watch more than some incredibly misleading highlights and read some stats? You're like a senile old man who reads the papers and thinks he knows about this generation and how his was so much better.

[KobesFinger]

why did Jordan's first 3 rings require 30% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418432) more PPG in the playoffs than Lebron, with equal assists???????

how do you explain jordan not having any all-stars during his first 5 seasons while Lebron had 2?... how do you explain lebron playing in a weak conference and jordan playing in a tough one?

oh wait - those last 2 are the answers to the first 1

The real question is don't you have anything better to do than to defend the honour of a billionaire who doesn't know you exist?

[3ball]

The fact that he doesn't realize we are just saying 1-9 because we are just sick of his endlessly repetitive threads is just sad.

Oh and you missed one of the biggest dipshits right here when you were banning trolls and spammers.


Why did Jordan's first 3 rings require 30% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418432) more PPG in the playoffs than Lebron, with equal assists???????


Answer:

1) Inferior cast (no all-star teammates in first 5 playoff runs seasons, while Lebron had 2)

2) Tough Conference (mj defeated twice (https://i.imgur.com/yz8FH5x.jpg) the 50-win teams as Lebron in playoffs and the 80's East is widely known as toughest conference ever)

[Smoke117]

Why did Jordan's first 3 rings require 30% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418432) more PPG in the playoffs than Lebron, with equal assists???????


Answer:

1) Inferior cast (no all-star teammates in first 5 playoff runs seasons, while Lebron had 2)

2) Tough Conference (mj defeated twice (https://i.imgur.com/yz8FH5x.jpg) the 50-win teams as Lebron in playoffs and the 80's East is widely known as toughest conference ever)

Seriously...what is wrong with you? You have bene arguing the same thing for a year straight...making the same threads for a year straight...give it a rest. It's the off season now...but you will STILL be making these stupid ass threads while were actually discussing the present season because you haven't even ****ing watched basketball in 5 years. Anytime you bring up Lebron or Jordan you should instantly be banned till you can behave like a normal human being.

[GrapeApe]

For the record, being an all-star doesn't make you a top 3 player at your position in the conference. In 2009 Mo Williams was 9th among eastern PG's in PER. His all-star selection was 100% due to Cleveland's record, which was almost entirely due to Lebron. He was never an all-star before or after that season.

I do agree that the 1-9 stuff is stupid, but there's no reason to use equally stupid logic to try to prove it.

[3ball]

Why do you spend so much time researching a topic with these bullshit numbers when you won't even take the time to watch more than some incredibly misleading highlights and read some stats? You're like a senile old man who reads the papers and thinks he knows about this generation and how his was so much better.



The combined playoff stats from Jordan's first 3 rings show 30% higher PPG and equal assists to Lebron's stats from his 3 rings:



PER GAME


Jordan 91, 92, 93 Playoffs:. 33.7 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 49.7 fg.. 57.2 ts.. 120 ortg.. 29.5 PER
Lebron 12, 13, 16 Playoffs:. 27.2 ppg.. 9.2 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 3.4 tov.. 51.0 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 117 ortg.. 29.2 PER



PER 100 POSSESSIONS


Jordan 91, 92, 93 Playoffs:. 44.5 pts.. Ii8.4 reb.. 8.7 ast.. 3.8 tov.. 49.7 fg.. 57.2 ts.. 120 ortg.. 29.5 PER
Lebron 12, 13, 16 Playoffs:. 36.1 pts.. 10.2 reb.. 8.7 ast.. 4.4 tov.. 51.0 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 117 ortg.. 29.2 PER




:facepalm .. MJ was required to score 30% more for his rings with EQUAL assists.

See the full playoff and Finals stats of each player thru 31 years old here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12602777&postcount=36)



SOURCES:


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

[MP.Trey]

I like how everytime 3ball makes a thread that blatantly lies to serve his agenda, he gets called out for it, edits his original post to an even more arbitrary stat and acts like nothing ever happened. :oldlol:

[AirBonner]

1-9

[3ball]

For the record, being an all-star doesn't make you a top 3 player at your position in the conference. In 2009 Mo Williams was 9th among eastern PG's in PER. His all-star selection was 100% due to Cleveland's record, which was almost entirely due to Lebron. He was never an all-star before or after that season.


Mo Williams was voted an alternate, so that means he was the 3rd or 4th rated point guard in the conference, as voted on by the coaches... I'll take their collective word over yours.. sorry bud

Btw, alongside Lebron, Mo Williams averaged 16-17 ppg with 5-6 apg, and also 40% three-point shooting... That's good enough for all-star in a lot of seasons, especially during the last 10 years in the weak-ass East.

So i'll state the facts again - young Lebron played in a weak conference and had two different 2nd options that were all-stars, whereas Jordan had played in a tough conference with no all-stars.. Jordan's tougher situation explains why his first 3 rings required 30% more scoring in the playoffs than Lebron's 3 rings, with equal assists.

[ralph_i_el]

Mo Williams was the 7th guard chosen as an all-star that year. He was the second I jury replacement. That means he was like the 17th best player in the east that year. Big Z was all star level for two years in a year where the east was thin of choices.

[3ball]

I like how everytime 3ball makes a thread that blatantly lies to serve his agenda, he gets called out for it, edits his original post to an even more arbitrary stat and acts like nothing ever happened. :oldlol:
I fixed the OP again - now it's flawless

And you never responded to the stats that I just posted - the combined playoff stats for Jordan's first 3 rings show 30% higher PPG and equal assists to Lebron's 3 rings.. Thru 31 years old, their overall playoff stats show the same thing.

Why did was Jordan required to do so much more?... Answer: weaker supporting cast and tougher conference, as explained in the OP
.

[3ball]

Mo Williams was the 7th guard chosen as an all-star that year.


7 total guards means there were about 3 POINT guards.

So Mo was a top 3-4 point guard in the conference, as voted on by the coaches.. I'll take their collective word over yours.





Big Z was all star level for two years in a year where the east was thin of choices.


Zydrunas was an all-star in Lebron's 2nd season by averaging 17/9 with 2.0 blk, yet Lebron missed the playoffs!

So don't compare this guy to Jordan - Jordan never missed the playoffs despite not having all-star teammates, and the instant he got just 1 all-star teammate, he took the champs 7 games in ECF and then went 6/6..

Ultimately, MJ was 6/6 with ONE all-star, while Lebron is 3/7 with SIX.


Btw, Zydrunas was still averaging 13/8 with 1.4 blocks in 2009 when he was a 3rd option on the 1-seeded Cavs, with all-star Mo Williams as the 2nd option.. This is FAR better than Jordan's 1989 cast, when the 3rd option was nobody Sam Vincent and the 2nd option was sophomore Pippen's 14/6/3 (only 10/5 in ECF).. Nonetheless, this rag-tag 6th seed took the champion Pistons to 6 games in ECF, while Lebron's more-stacked 1 seed fell to Dwight's lowly Magic.
.

[AirBonner]

Why do you talk about Lebron so much in threads about Jordan?

[FKAri]

1-9. What a loser :lol

He'd suck in the modern era. Just another Wilt. Dominated scrubs like Mitch Richmond :lol

He stole money from the league and transitioned nicely into clothing and footwear. A smart business man :applause:

[SouBeachTalents]

The real question is don't you have anything better to do than to defend the honour of a billionaire who doesn't know you exist?

:oldlol:

[BedroomBully]

Still

During Jordan's first 5 seasons, none of his 2nd options were anywhere NEAR top 3 players at their position (all-stars), and the Eastern Conference was the toughest it's ever been.

Otoh, during Lebron's first 5 seasons, two of his 2nd options were all-stars and his conference was all-time weak.

So MJ's 1-9 is explained by a weak supporting cast in a tough conference (imagine the current Sixers cast in the WESTERN conference), and this tougher situation also explains why his first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418432) 30% more PPG in the playoffs than Lebron, with equal assists.
No excuses!!! As the all-time greatest, he should have gotten them over the hump!

[3ball]

No excuses!!! As the all-time greatest, he should have gotten them over the hump!


He did - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8..

So without Jordan, the 1989 Bulls were a lottery roster, that Jordan led to ECF and 6 games with the champion Pistons in ECF, and also a 3-peat beginning just 2 years later in 1991 (exact same roster)..

That's the goat impact on a lottery team and the very DEFINITION of getting a team of "over the hump".

[TheWinningFam]

He did - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8..

So without Jordan, the 1989 Bulls were a lottery roster, that Jordan led to ECF and 6 games with the champion Pistons in ECF, and also a 3-peat beginning just 2 years later in 1991 (exact same roster)..

That's the goat impact on a lottery team and the very DEFINITION of getting a team of "over the hump".
Why did the bulls in jordan's second year only lose 4 more games with jordan missing almost the entire season with an injury, and still made the playoffs.D espite supposodley having a weaker supporting cast and tougher competition.
http://replygif.net/i/804.gif

[Duncan21formvp]

1990 Game 4 @ Philly, no Pippen.

1988 First Round Pippen is coming off the bench and a role player.

[BedroomBully]

Why did Jordan's first 3 rings require 30% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418432) more PPG in the playoffs than Lebron, with equal assists???????


Answer:

1) Inferior cast (no all-star teammates in first 5 playoff runs seasons, while Lebron had 2)

2) Tough Conference (mj defeated twice (https://i.imgur.com/yz8FH5x.jpg) the 50-win teams as Lebron in playoffs and the 80's East is widely known as toughest conference ever)
Because the mutha f@cka took 20+ more shots than the next man! duh!! More shots=More points. Now go back to the basement fat azz.

[BedroomBully]

:roll:
Seriously...what is wrong with you? You have bene arguing the same thing for a year straight...making the same threads for a year straight...give it a rest. It's the off season now...but you will STILL be making these stupid ass threads while were actually discussing the present season because you haven't even ****ing watched basketball in 5 years. Anytime you bring up Lebron or Jordan you should instantly be banned till you can behave like a normal human being.
:roll: :roll: :bowdown:

[ralph_i_el]

30% (http://www.reactiongifs.com/lol/illK6U.gif) more points per game

[HurricaneKid]

Did you really just attempt to provide evidence that LeBron had more help because he managed to get Z and Mo into ASGs?

Are you seriously suggesting that Z and Mo were even average starters? Because all evidence shows otherwise.

The fact that LBJ garnered SO MUCH ATTENTION that THOSE TWO were put in enough positions to succeed that they made ASGs seems to be as remarkable an achievement as a player can make.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

1-9.

[TheWinningFam]

Jordan wouldn't be his teams best scorer/passer/rebounder/defender /rim protector for any of those finals. So if we swapped places jordan would have 2 rings at best, while lebron only having to score and play defense would probably have 8 straight.

[LostCause]

Jordan wouldn't be his teams best scorer/passer/rebounder/defender /rim protector for any of those finals. So if we swapped places jordan would have 2 rings at best, while lebron only having to score and play defense would probably have 8 straight.

Factually incorrect

Lebron has historically and factually been part of teams that perform below their expected levels with him as their best player, while many of Jordans teams have greatly exceeded the sum of their parts

http://image.prntscr.com/image/958f7805602945f7ad3f8396c86c941f.png

Therefore we can conclude based on evidence that the Bulls would be inferior with Lebron, whereas adding Jordan to the teams that historically underperformed that included James should give them a boost. As in, 2011, 2012 and 2015

Based completley off of expected plus/minus and actual plus/minus, Lebrons teams have an average actual plus/minus of -4.2 than how they should perform. Jordans teams? On average, their actual plus/mins is +1.325

*For anyone arguing the legitimacy of the ratings, take it up with Basketball-Reference's SPS System and Real Box Plus/Minus. From the source:

But make no mistake, by the numbers, the 2016-17 Warriors could easily prove to be the most talented team in modern NBA history. If we use Basketball-Reference.com’s Simple Projection System to predict each player’s Box Plus/Minus for the following season and sum up those projections for each team,1 next year’s Warriors would be the most-talented team since 1979-802 if they merely surrounded their existing players — Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson, Kevin Durant, Draymond Green, Andre Iguodala, Shaun Livingston, Zaza Pachulia and David West, who is reportedly signing with Golden State on the veteran’s minimum — with replacement-level talent (think Luc Mbah a Moute or Norris Cole). In other words, even if they don’t add another meaningful player, Durant’s Warriors will probably surpass James’s 2010-11 Heat as the best collection of talent in the league’s past four decades or so.

[TheWinningFam]

Factually incorrect

Lebron has historically and factually been part of teams that perform below their expected levels with him as their best player, while many of Jordans teams have greatly exceeded the sum of their parts

http://image.prntscr.com/image/958f7805602945f7ad3f8396c86c941f.png

Therefore we can conclude based on evidence that the Bulls would be inferior with Lebron, whereas adding Jordan to the teams that historically underperformed that included James should give them a boost. As in, 2011, 2012 and 2015

Based completley off of expected plus/minus and actual plus/minus, Lebrons teams have an average actual plus/minus of -4.2 than how they should perform. Jordans teams? On average, their actual plus/mins is +1.325

*For anyone arguing the legitimacy of the ratings, take it up with Basketball-Reference's SPS System and Real Box Plus/Minus. From the source:
So are you saying jordan would be his teams best scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/rim protecter while playing in a slower pace against better defenders than he did in the 90s?

[LostCause]

So are you saying jordan would be his teams best scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/rim protecter while playing in a slower pace against better defenders than he did in the 90s?

I'm saying Jordan probably wouldn't have to because he'd allow his teammates to play to their strengths more while still winning

You're trying to arbitrarily imply Jordan needs to do the bolded to achieve the same or better results than Bron. He doesn't. By virtue of his teams routinely playing ABOVE the sum of their parts, and Brons routinely playing below it, Jordan factually maximizes the talents of other top talent players better than Lebron does

Pace is about the same and even with Pace Adjusted Jordan's numbers don't change much or they improve, and against so-called "better defenders" with weaker contact rules Jordan can be even more creative than he was when he averaged 30 and 11 against the Lakers. This being the small-ball era also works in Jordans favor

[TheWinningFam]

I'm saying Jordan probably wouldn't have to because he'd allow his teammates to play to their strengths more while still winning

You're trying to arbitrarily imply Jordan needs to do the bolded to achieve the same or better results than Bron. He doesn't. By virtue of his teams routinely playing ABOVE the sum of their parts, and Brons routinely playing below it, Jordan factually maximizes the talents of other top talent players better than Lebron does

Pace is about the same and even with Pace Adjusted Jordan's numbers don't change much or they improve, and against so-called "better defenders" with weaker contact rules Jordan can be even more creative than he was when he averaged 30 and 11 against the Lakers. This being the small-ball era also works in Jordans favor
Defenses in today's game is much better than the 90s, as the 90s had much more freedom of movement. Illegal defense rules, Popularity isolation/concentration, expansion teams that meant lack of parity and talent was spread across the league.

http://604now.com/new/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/grizzliescourt.jpg
Now this might seem like a good thing, but it created A LOT of easy beat teams, even so in the playoffs, that which the more stacked teams like Chicago/Houston/Portland/Orlando/Indiana/Phoenix could prey on. Essentially players like Jordan got a free ride into the playoffs year after year.

Great players in other era didn't get this ease to success, it had to be earned, and by later years, more modern eras like the late 2000's/early 2010's, human evolution had evolved further, athletes were more athletic then the previous eras, there was more talent to fill all 32 teams, this ensured more parity. In these modern times, every game was a true NBA talent face-off...

"the league added 6 teams between 88-95, so wins at the top of the league were inflated in that period."

For years during the parity-lacking 90's, a lot of games seemed like NBA squads v European teams. It simply was an easier time for elite teams. A way to describe the 90's would be to look at American society now... There is a big gap between the rich and the poor, not much middle ground/class.

Second point as to why the 90's was a bad era; Illegal defense rule schemes. (CONT.)
http://giant.gfycat.com/ImaginaryDevotedHoneybee.gif
Many people don't understand this about the 90's, but defenses were very poor compared to the 2000's and 2010's. To basically summarize up Illegal defense would be to call it, a set of schemes designed to ensure man to man dominated competition and focus the game on individuals opposed to teams.
http://giant.gfycat.com/ShockingGleamingGlobefish.gif
http://giant.gfycat.com/PoshBleakIvorygull.gif

POPULARITY ISOLATION/CONCENTRATION
During the 90's it was all about Jordan. This is what the media wanted, and they pushed it as far as they could. That's not to say Jordan couldn't swing on the swings by himself... But the ride is ALWAYS more thrilling and successful when daddy (Stern) is pushing you. In the 60's it was Russell and Wilt. The 70's was all about Doc-J and Kareem. The 80's? Magic and Bird, baby. But those butter-soft 90's? Air Jordan. He was the biggest star the sport had ever seen. He even starred in Space Jam, which is now a cultural iconic film frozen in time of an almost fairy-tale era.

I like to call the 90's the princess era. Not many people thought for themselves. What they saw on television, they sucked it right up, followed their every word, bought the narrative.


The game had now become a slow paced, defensive, isolation fest. All characteristics brought on from the playing times of Mike.

It would take nearly a decade to fix the mess brought on by Jordan... The rules where modified and altered to where now in 2015 it's the best it's ever been... the 3pt shot, floor spacing and teamwork is at an all time high... And ISO is reserved for the TRUE superstars in the league. The heir apparent came in the form of a prodigy by the name of Lebron James, who represents everything that is good and sustainable for the league, unlike what MJ offered, a high that would flatline.'' ''Credits go to ISB for the article.

In order for jordan to win ATLEAST 2 titles he would have to be the team's best scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/rim protector while facing tougher defensive schemes and individual defenders, Otoh lebron would only need p to focus on scoring and defense to get the minimum 6 rings while facing worse defenders and defensive schemes..

[vetlantram]

1-9.

[egokiller]

Did you really just attempt to provide evidence that LeBron had more help because he managed to get Z and Mo into ASGs?

Are you seriously suggesting that Z and Mo were even average starters? Because all evidence shows otherwise.

The fact that LBJ garnered SO MUCH ATTENTION that THOSE TWO were put in enough positions to succeed that they made ASGs seems to be as remarkable an achievement as a player can make.

Z was in the all-star game in 2003 before Lebron was even drafted you idiot. 297,895 votes. Just stop posting. Your head is so far up Lebron's ass you can't even effectively diminish his teammates so you resort to making shit up.


Don't tell that to 3ball. It holds no weight to his idiotic argument.

It doesn't hold any weight to 3ball's argument because it's completely false. This is why posters like you are a dime a dozen that can't win any arguments. You read some nonsense that someone posts and just assume it's factual, and then repeat it a week later.:roll:

[AirBonner]

Z was in the all-star game in 2003 before Lebron was even drafted you idiot. 297,895 votes. Just stop posting. Your head is so far up Lebron's ass you can't even effectively diminish his teammates so you resort to making shit up.



It doesn't hold any weight to 3ball's argument because it's completely false. This is why posters like you are a dime a dozen that can't win any arguments. You read some nonsense that someone posts and just assume it's factual, and then repeat it a week later.:roll:
Why don't you just use your 3ball account?

[egokiller]

Why don't you just use your 3ball account?

Because I'm not an alt of anyone. Every week some idiot says I'm an alt of someone different. I've been told I've been an alt of like 10 different posters and the reason why these morons keep saying this is clear:

No one can argue with my logic so they just accuse me of being someone's alt.:roll:

[AirBonner]

Because I'm not an alt of anyone. Every week some idiot says I'm an alt of someone different. I've been told I've been an alt of like 10 different posters and the reason why these morons keep saying this is clear:

No one can argue with my logic so they just accuse me of being someone's alt.:roll:
At least try to change your writing style:facepalm

[egokiller]

At least try to change your writing style:facepalm

Wow.....so me and 3ball have the same "writing style" now? It seems like it's the same because that's how educated people write. Either you are trolling or just plain dumb.

[LostCause]

Did you really just attempt to provide evidence that LeBron had more help because he managed to get Z and Mo into ASGs?

Are you seriously suggesting that Z and Mo were even average starters? Because all evidence shows otherwise.

The fact that LBJ garnered SO MUCH ATTENTION that THOSE TWO were put in enough positions to succeed that they made ASGs seems to be as remarkable an achievement as a player can make.

The problem here is that Z was an all-star before Bron was even in the NBA

Mo Williams' stats during his AS season weren't much different or even better than they were his last 2 years in Milwaukee, either. I don't see how Mo can be called a less than average starter, by any means

[egokiller]

The problem here is that Z was an all-star before Bron was even in the NBA

Mo Williams' stats during his AS season weren't much different or even better than they were his last 2 years in Milwaukee, either. I don't see how Mo can be called a less than average starter, by any means

I just said that. Don't waste your time with them. These lebron fam stans will try anything to diminish Lebron's teammates in a half-assed effort to prop him up. It's probably only 3-4 posters with 40 alts that accuse others of having alts whenever they get shut down.

[TommyGriffin]

More alt accusations after being unable to disprove the facts. Pathetic. :facepalm

[egokiller]

More alt accusations after being unable to disprove the facts. Pathetic. :facepalm

The longer the attempt at arguing with me goes, the more lopsided the argument becomes in my favor. Such is the benefit when you have all the facts to back up your case and the opposition has only opinions to fuel their weak argument. These guys and their alts are probably browsing the internet right now and seeing if they can sign up for a debate class at their local community college in an effort to try and keep up this 1-9 nonsense. :roll:

[LostCause]

Defenses in today's game is much..]

Team defense may be superior, however that's offset by the rules of the time being so different to disallow or discourage what you see today. The game has changed, but it's give and take. It's foolish trying to argue one era is just flat out superior to another especially when both era's are modern


...Now this might seem like a good thing, but it created A LOT of easy beat teams, even so in the playoffs..

This is false. By your logic expansion teams diluted the league, but expansion teams weren't making the playoffs but so they weren't an issue. If they did, then they deserved to be there

That said, some of the 90s expansion teams were far superior to some of the bottom-dwelling teams of this era - Sixers were actively tanking, the Nets are just deplorable and were even moreso before going to Brooklyn. Teams are setting historical records for losing seasons in this era. That sounds like easy pickings to me


Great players in other era didn't get this ease to success, it had to be earned, and by later years, more modern eras like the late 2000's/early 2010's, human evolution had evolved further, athletes were more athletic then the previous eras, there was more talent to fill all 32 teams, this ensured more parity. In these modern times, every game was a true NBA talent face-off...

Scientists have been dying to find cases of marked evolution of humanity over centuries yet you're here claiming "human evolution" improved so drastically across a decade or two that it makes a significant difference between 90s basketball and now. Get the **** out :roll:

If the league today had more "parity", Silver wouldn't be getting infront of a podium trying to convince the public that his league has parity to begin with


"the league added 6 teams between 88-95, so wins at the top of the league were inflated in that period."

The expansion teams of the 90s overall had better records than many of the teams that play today, so the argument that they were inflating wins is a weak one.


For years during the parity-lacking 90's, a lot of games seemed like NBA squads v European teams. It simply was an easier time for elite teams. A way to describe the 90's would be to look at American society now... There is a big gap between the rich and the poor, not much middle ground/class.

http://i.imgur.com/1iCaFeN.png

Random and meaningless rambling


Second point as to why the 90's was a bad era; Illegal defense rule schemes. (CONT.)

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/assets/3768613/ledunk_medium.gif


Many people don't understand this about the 90's, but defenses were very poor compared to the 2000's and 2010's. To basically summarize up Illegal defense would be to call it, a set of schemes designed to ensure man to man dominated competition and focus the game on individuals opposed to teams.

This would be a relevant point if the rule itself was called often and teams weren't throwing out Zones/Traps anyway


http://giant.gfycat.com/PoshBleakIvorygull.gif

Which seems like more "freedom of movement" to you?
http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/53553afa6bb3f77d58a35745/harden-swaggy-p.gif


During the 90's it was all about Jordan. This is what the media wanted....He was the biggest star the sport had ever seen. He even starred in Space Jam, which is now a cultural iconic film frozen in time of an almost fairy-tale era.

I like to call the 90's the princess era. Not many people thought for themselves. What they saw on television, they sucked it right up, followed their every word, bought the narrative.

Again, completely irrelevant rambling.


The game had now become a slow paced, defensive, isolation fest. All characteristics brought on from the playing times of Mike.

Actually defense become stingiest AFTER Jordan, when the Pistons/Spurs brought terrible ratings due to their grind-it-out style of play and exploiting the hell out of the defense rules of the time to their advantage


It would take nearly a decade to fix the mess brought on by Jordan... The rules where modified and altered to where now in 2015 it's the best it's ever been... the 3pt shot, floor spacing and teamwork is at an all time high... And ISO is reserved for the TRUE superstars in the league. The heir apparent came in the form of a prodigy by the name of Lebron James, who represents everything that is good and sustainable for the league, unlike what MJ offered, a high that would flatline.''

Subjective and irrelevant ramblind again


In order for jordan to win ATLEAST 2 titles he would have to be the team's best scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/rim protector while facing tougher defensive schemes and individual defenders, Otoh lebron would only need p to focus on scoring and defense to get the minimum 6 rings while facing worse defenders and defensive schemes..

Factually incorrect

http://image.prntscr.com/image/958f7805602945f7ad3f8396c86c941f.png

Lebron has historically and factually been part of teams that perform below their expected levels with him as their best player, while many of Jordans teams have greatly exceeded the sum of their parts

Therefore we can conclude based on evidence that the Bulls would be inferior with Lebron, whereas adding Jordan to the teams that historically underperformed that included James should give them a boost. As in, 2011, 2012 and 2015

Based completley off of expected plus/minus and actual plus/minus, Lebrons teams have an average actual plus/minus of -4.2 than how they should perform. Jordans teams? On average, their actual plus/mins is +1.325

*For anyone arguing the legitimacy of the ratings, take it up with Basketball-Reference's SPS System and Real Box Plus/Minus.

Because Jordan elevates his teammates where Lebron hinders them, Jordan would've won in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2016. 4 titles where Lebron only got 3. Meanwhile, in Jordan's place, Lebron would've hindered those Bulls teams as he doesnt maximize the talents of other top talent players, and thus likely would've won maybe 2 out of the 6 rings Jordan won (Lakers and Blazers)

I don't necessarily believe that to be true but shit, if you're gonna post dumb shit I can follow your trains of thought :roll:

[TommyGriffin]

The longer the attempt at arguing with me goes, the more lopsided the argument becomes in my favor. Such is the benefit when you have all the facts to back up your case and the opposition has only opinions to fuel their weak argument. These guys and their alts are probably browsing the internet right now and seeing if they can sign up for a debate class at their local community college in an effort to try and keep up this 1-9 nonsense. :roll:
Yes. There is a good reason you will never hear of any of this crazy 1-9 stuff anywhere outside of "The LeBron Family"...

[TommyGriffin]

Team defense may be superior, however that's offset by the rules of the time being so different to disallow or discourage what you see today. The game has changed, but it's give and take. It's foolish trying to argue one era is just flat out superior to another especially when both era's are modern



This is false. By your logic expansion teams diluted the league, but expansion teams weren't making the playoffs but so they weren't an issue. If they did, then they deserved to be there

That said, some of the 90s expansion teams were far superior to some of the bottom-dwelling teams of this era - Sixers were actively tanking, the Nets are just deplorable and were even moreso before going to Brooklyn. Teams are setting historical records for losing seasons in this era. That sounds like easy pickings to me



Scientists have been dying to find cases of marked evolution of humanity over centuries yet you're here claiming "human evolution" improved so drastically across a decade or two that it makes a significant difference between 90s basketball and now. Get the **** out :roll:

If the league today had more "parity", Silver wouldn't be getting infront of a podium trying to convince the public that his league has parity to begin with



The expansion teams of the 90s overall had better records than many of the teams that play today, so the argument that they were inflating wins is a weak one.



http://i.imgur.com/1iCaFeN.png

Random and meaningless rambling



http://cdn2.sbnation.com/assets/3768613/ledunk_medium.gif



This would be a relevant point if the rule itself was called often and teams weren't throwing out Zones/Traps anyway



Which seems like more "freedom of movement" to you?
http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/53553afa6bb3f77d58a35745/harden-swaggy-p.gif



Again, completely irrelevant rambling.



Actually defense become stingiest AFTER Jordan, when the Pistons/Spurs brought terrible ratings due to their grind-it-out style of play and exploiting the hell out of the defense rules of the time to their advantage



Subjective and irrelevant ramblind again



Factually incorrect

http://image.prntscr.com/image/958f7805602945f7ad3f8396c86c941f.png

Lebron has historically and factually been part of teams that perform below their expected levels with him as their best player, while many of Jordans teams have greatly exceeded the sum of their parts

Therefore we can conclude based on evidence that the Bulls would be inferior with Lebron, whereas adding Jordan to the teams that historically underperformed that included James should give them a boost. As in, 2011, 2012 and 2015

Based completley off of expected plus/minus and actual plus/minus, Lebrons teams have an average actual plus/minus of -4.2 than how they should perform. Jordans teams? On average, their actual plus/mins is +1.325

*For anyone arguing the legitimacy of the ratings, take it up with Basketball-Reference's SPS System and Real Box Plus/Minus.

Because Jordan elevates his teammates where Lebron hinders them, Jordan would've won in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2016. 4 titles where Lebron only got 3. Meanwhile, in Jordan's place, Lebron would've hindered those Bulls teams as he doesnt maximize the talents of other top talent players, and thus likely would've won maybe 2 out of the 6 rings Jordan won (Lakers and Blazers)

I don't necessarily believe that to be true but shit, if you're gonna post dumb shit I can follow your trains of thought :roll:
Wow. Someone call the Corner. We have a body on our hands.

[egokiller]

I don't even know why I bother posting in the same threads as quality posters like 3ball and lost cause. They have this one already covered. All I'm doing is adding fuel to their already solid argument resulting in the opposition becoming more and more dysfunctional. There's no fun arguing with those that have nothing left because they've been dismantled beyond recognition. The anger starts to cloud their judgement and they can't form logical opinions at that point. Such is the advantage of not trying side on behalf of players who are beta like Lebron relative to guys like MJ who are much more alpha by default.

[3ball]

.
Thread findings on why Lebron's early supporting casts were superior to MJ's early casts:


Young Jordan's 2nd options of Woolridge, Oakley and 2nd year Pippen (14/6/3) weren't top 4 players at their position in the conference (all-stars), whereas Lebron's 2nd options of Big Z and Mo Williams WERE all-stars, and therefore better relative to their competition than Jordan's cast.

Jordan's weaker cast is shown by the stats - his 33/8/8 yielded 47 wins for the 1989 Bulls, whereas Lebron's 28/8/7 yielded 66 wins in for the 2009 Cavs.. The 19 win gap can't be due ONLY to a weaker conference - it must be due to a weaker supporting cast as well.. Jordan's weaker cast also explains why he was required to DO MORE thru 31 years old, including 30% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12616538&postcount=71) more PPG in the playoffs with equal assists.
.

[egokiller]

Lebron joined a team that had a fresh all-star, Z, who had played 81 games and when MJ joined the bulls, no one on that team was an all-star.

It's pathetic that Lebron couldn't even work with Z and keep him healthy and shape him into a better player the way Jordan was able to shape Pippen into a better player. You could tell who wanted to win more and who was all about wearing "check my stats" shirts.

[AirBonner]

.
MJ AND LEBRON THRU 31 YEARS OLD




PLAYOFFS PER GAME



Jordan:. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




PLAYOFFS PER 100 POSSESSIONS



Jordan:I 43.9 pts..N 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




FINALS PER GAME



Jordan Finals:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron Finals:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg
.
Lebron's teams were better because he MADE them better. His competition required him to step up in order to compete. Lebron is like a bandaid. He is able to mask many problems with a team that gets exposed in the playoffs. Meanwhile ordan was making the playoffs with 30 win teams.

[3ball]

Lebron's teams were better because he MADE them better. His competition required him to step up in order to compete. Lebron is like a bandaid. He is able to mask many problems with a team that gets exposed in the playoffs. Meanwhile ordan was making the playoffs with 30 win teams.
Young Jordan's 2nd options of Woolridge, Oakley and 2nd year Pippen (14/6/3) weren't top 4 players at their position in the conference (all-stars), whereas Lebron's 2nd options of Big Z and Mo Williams WERE all-stars, and therefore better relative to their competition than Jordan's cast.

Jordan's weaker cast is shown by the stats - his 33/8/8 yielded 47 wins for the 1989 Bulls, whereas Lebron's 28/8/7 yielded 66 wins in for the 2009 Cavs.. The 19 win gap can't be due ONLY to a weaker conference - it must be due to weaker supporting cast as well.

Jordan's weaker cast also explains why he was required to DO MORE thru 31 years old, including 30% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12616538&postcount=71) more PPG in the playoffs with equal assists.
.

[egokiller]

3ball laying down the facts.

Lebron can't even be more alpha than Kobe, let alone MJ.

[Sportal]

.
During Jordan's early Bulls career, none of his 2nd options were anywhere NEAR top 3 players at their position (all-stars), and the Eastern Conference was the toughest it's ever been.

Otoh, during Lebron's first tenure with the Cavs, two of his 2nd options were all-stars and his conference was all-time weak.

So MJ's 1-9 is explained by a weak supporting cast in a tough conference (imagine the current Sixers cast in the WESTERN conference), and this tougher situation explains why his first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418432) 30% more PPG in the playoffs than Lebron, with equal assists.
.


Alrighty, so, I'll take your point. But can I ask what team records were making the playoffs in these years where Jordan was not?

I also was not aware that Irving, or Love, were top 3 at their positions?

[tmacattack33]

Illgauskas was a pretty weak all-star. He was an all-star past his prime in the worst era of all time for his position.


And I don't even know who the other all-star you are referring to is. Maybe Mo Williams in 2009...which is also a very weak "all-star".

[Heavincent]

Lebron is better than Jordan. Deal with it.

[K.dot ShowTime]

LeBlof is the GOAB