Attention: Jordan's 3rdball Explain this!!!!

[BedroomBully]

You say that during MJ's tenure in the NBA, the East was extremely stacked with talent. A bloodbath! A massacre JUST TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS! It took MJ a herculean effort to get his team to into the playoffs year after year, just to come up short in the first round. Surely you have to have a stellar regular season record to make the playoffs, right? SURELY IT HAS TO BE WELL OVER .500? Right? Wrong! Please explain the following:

1984-85 38-44 Regular season record
1985-86 30-52!!!! Really?????? Fcukkkkin Really?
1986-87 40-42
1987-88 50-32

So tell me, how was the East stacked, when a RECORD OF 30-52 GOT YOU INTO THE PLAYOFFS???????

[3ball]

You say that during MJ's tenure in the NBA, the East was extremely stacked with talent. A bloodbath!



Win-loss records of young MJ and Lebron's 1st Round opponents



Bucks. 1985: 59-23... #2 defense.. Division Champs
Celtics 1986: 67-15... #1 defense.. World Champs
Celtics 1987: 59-23... #9 defense.. Eastern Conference Champs
__________________________________________________ ____________
Combined Record: 185-61... 0.752.. some of the best teams ever


Wizards 2006: 42-40... #22 defense
Wizards 2007: 41-41... #28 defense
Wizards 2008: 43-39... #24 defense
__________________________________________________ ____________
Combined Record: 126-120... 0.512... some of the worst playoff teams ever



Notes: MJ averaged 36.0 ppg on 45.3% against his all-time great opponents shown above, compared to 32.1 ppg on 48.1% for Lebron against his borderline lottery opponents.






So tell me, how was the East stacked, when a RECORD OF 30-52 GOT YOU INTO THE PLAYOFFS???????


It's called a statistical anomaly

and obviously, just because the 8th seed won 30 games, doesn't mean the higher seeds are vastly superior teams to another conference whose 8th seed won more games.

[Spurs m8]

*yawn, another kid that wasn't around in the 90s

[BigKAT]

Win-loss records of young MJ and Lebron's 1st Round opponents



Bucks. 1985: 59-23... #2 defense.. Division Champs
Celtics 1986: 67-15... #1 defense.. World Champs
Celtics 1987: 59-23... #9 defense.. Eastern Conference Champs
__________________________________________________ ____________
Combined Record: 185-61... 0.752.. some of the best teams ever


Wizards 2006: 42-40... #22 defense
Wizards 2007: 41-41... #28 defense
Wizards 2008: 43-39... #24 defense
__________________________________________________ ____________
Combined Record: 126-120... 0.512... some of the worst playoff teams ever



Notes: MJ averaged 36.0 ppg on 45.3% against his all-time great opponents shown above, compared to 32.1 ppg on 48.1% for Lebron against his borderline lottery opponents.




It's called a statistical anomaly

and obviously, just because the 8th seed won 30 games, doesn't mean the higher seeds are vastly superior teams to another conference whose 8th seed won more games.

Not trying to discredit Jordan here.
But of course he faced tougher teams if his own record was worse.
That's how the playoffs work.

You get a high W/L Record and you face weaker competition.
Lebron's early teams just did better in the regular season, that's why they got to the face the weakly Wizards rather then the Champion Celtics.

[BedroomBully]

Not trying to discredit Jordan here.
But of course he faced tougher teams if his own record was worse.
That's how the playoffs work.

You get a high W/L Record and you face weaker competition.
Lebron's early teams just did better in the regular season, that's why they got to the face the weakly Wizards rather then the Champion Celtics.
3ball constantly talks about the East conference being stacked from top to bottom! Not just top heavy. It MJ was great, why not secure a top seed?

[TheWinningFam]

Also to add on to this, Why did the bulls in jordan's second year only lose 4 more games than his rookie season with jordan missing almost the entire season with an injury. They still made the playoffs, despite allegedly having a weaker supporting cast and tougher competition.
http://replygif.net/i/804.gif

[Spurs m8]

This threads pretty cute

Serious question though, do people actually think Bron is GOAT?

How? LMFAO

[BigKAT]

This threads pretty cute

Serious question though, do people actually think Bron is GOAT?

How? LMFAO

Jordan is definetly the GOAT.
No argument there.

But the constant need of some people here to VALIDATE that kinda makes me wish he wasn't. (But he is. And probably will be for all eternity.)

[Spurs m8]

But most people don't feel the need to validate it as such....its more defend it when dumb c*nts run their stupid mouths....which is fine.

[J Shuttlesworth]

This threads pretty cute

Serious question though, do people actually think Bron is GOAT?

How? LMFAO
Most LeBron fans voted him as 3rd best all time behind MJ, but 3ball is still on a crusade to prove that Jordan is better for some reason

[Smoke117]

Most LeBron fans voted him as 3rd best all time behind MJ, but 3ball is still on a crusade to prove that Jordan is better for some reason

I hear his next crusade is to prove water is wet.

[BedroomBully]

This threads pretty cute

Serious question though, do people actually think Bron is GOAT?

How? LMFAO
Where in my post did I say LeBron was the goat? You're another insecure beta bringin up LeBron in a discussion where he in not mentioned. I'm just asking 3ball why the Bulls got into the playoffs with a $hitty record when he constantly claims that the East was stacked back in MJs days.

[BedroomBully]

Jordan is definetly the GOAT.
No argument there.

But the constant need of some people here to VALIDATE that kinda makes me wish he wasn't. (But he is. And probably will be for all eternity.)
This is exactly my sentiments. Nobody in their right mind has LeBron over MJ. It irritates me that this clown 3ball is constantly attacking the production of his teammates to prop up his boy.

[Da_Realist]

Not trying to discredit Jordan here.
But of course he faced tougher teams if his own record was worse.
That's how the playoffs work.

You get a high W/L Record and you face weaker competition.
Lebron's early teams just did better in the regular season, that's why they got to the face the weakly Wizards rather then the Champion Celtics.

Lebron's teams did better because the conference was weak. He wouldn't win 66 games in the 80's East. The best team ever won 67.

[TheWinningFam]

Lebron's teams did better because the conference was weak. He wouldn't win 66 games in the 80's East. The best team ever won 67.
Why did the bulls in jordan's second year only lose 4 more games than his rookie season with jordan missing almost the entire season with an injury. They still made the playoffs, despite allegedly having a weaker supporting cast and tougher competition.
The only way this can be explained is jordan having a better supporting cast while facing equal or lesser competition than lebron. http://replygif.net/i/804.gif

[LostCause]

[I]Why did the bulls in jordan's second year only lose 4 more games than his rookie season with jordan missing almost the entire season with an injury. They still made the playoffs, despite allegedly having a weaker supporting cast and tougher competition.
The only way this can be explained is jordan having a better supporting cast while facing equal or lesser competition than lebron

I can see that you're trying ot make a point here, but without Jordan those Bulls played at a .328% winning pace. With Jordan, they were .500. Most certainly wouldn't have made the playoffs without MJ, and would've been a 9th or 10th seed in the East

Whatever point you were making loses quite a bit of intrinsic value just based off that

Also, while scoffing at the record is cool and all, keep in mind in 86 the Pistons were a 5th seed in the East with 46 wins then the next season went to the ECF, then the Finals before their 2 chips with largely the same core (Added Rodman)

[3ball]

Lebron's teams did better because the conference was weak. He wouldn't win 66 games in the 80's East. The best team ever won 67.


This.

But also - Woolridge, Oakley and 2nd year Pippen (14/6/2) were not top 4 players at their position in the conference (all-stars), whereas Lebron's 2nd options WERE all-stars (Big Z, Mo), and therefore better relative to their competition than Jordan's cast.

Jordan's 33/8/8 yielded 47 wins for the 1989 Bulls, whereas Lebron's 28/8/7 yielded 66 wins in for the 2009 Cavs.. The 19 win gap can't be due ONLY to a weaker conference - a weaker supporting cast must be the reason as well.

[egokiller]

This is exactly my sentiments. Nobody in their right mind has LeBron over MJ. It irritates me that this clown 3ball is constantly attacking the production of his teammates to prop up his boy.

You have it backwards. It's this so called "lebron fam" that is constantly trying to say that lebron carried scrubs to all of his finals.
:roll:

That Wade was never a top 2 PER player, or that Bosh was never a top 4 PER player when he colluded with them. Claims that Kyrie isn't an all star caliber player. Claims that Mo Williams wasn't an all-star, that Z and Ben Wallace were scrubs.... anything to make Lebron appear better than what he really is.

[3ball]

Lebron's early teams just did better in the regular season, that's why they got to the face the weakly Wizards rather then the Champion Celtics.


Woolridge, Oakley and 2nd year Pippen (14/6/2) were not top 4 players at their position in the conference (all-stars), whereas young Lebron's 2nd options WERE all-stars (Big Z, Mo), and therefore better relative to their competition than Jordan's cast.

So Jordan had the weaker cast, which is also demonstrated by the stats - Jordan's 33/8/8 yielded 47 wins for the 1989 Bulls, whereas Lebron's 28/8/7 yielded 66 wins in for the 2009 Cavs.. The 19 win gap isn't ONLY due to a weaker conference - a weaker supporting cast must be the reason as well.

[BedroomBully]

Woolridge, Oakley and 2nd year Pippen (14/6/2) were not top 4 players at their position in the conference (all-stars), whereas young Lebron's 2nd options WERE all-stars (Big Z, Mo), and therefore better relative to their competition than Jordan's cast.

So Jordan had the weaker cast, which is also demonstrated by the stats - Jordan's 33/8/8 yielded 47 wins for the 1989 Bulls, whereas Lebron's 28/8/7 yielded 66 wins in for the 2009 Cavs.. The 19 win gap isn't ONLY due to a weaker conference - a weaker supporting cast must be the reason as well.
Mo Williams was NEVER an All-Star you clown. The only reason why he made it that year was because someone got injured. I remember LeBron and The Cavs pushing hard for him to be selected, and he got handed the spot by default. This is the $hit I'm talking about, you discredit Jordan's teammates and prop up LeBron's all to fit your agenda. At the end, Pippen and Rodman are better than any teammate LeBron has had.

[egokiller]

Mo Williams was NEVER an All-Star you clown. The only reason why he made it that year was because someone got injured. I remember LeBron and The Cavs pushing hard for him to be selected, and he got handed the spot by default. This is the $hit I'm talking about, you discredit Jordan's teammates and prop up LeBron's all to fit your agenda. At the end, Pippen and Rodman are better than any teammate LeBron has had.

So you think that there was a better candidate than Mo Williams after he was put in for the other guy? I'd love to hear that case.

[TheWinningFam]

I can see that you're trying ot make a point here, but without Jordan those Bulls played at a .328% winning pace. With Jordan, they were .500. Most certainly wouldn't have made the playoffs without MJ, and would've been a 9th or 10th seed in the East

Whatever point you were making loses quite a bit of intrinsic value just based off that

Also, while scoffing at the record is cool and all, keep in mind in 86 the Pistons were a 5th seed in the East with 46 wins then the next season went to the ECF, then the Finals before their 2 chips with largely the same core (Added Rodman)
Well it's no surprise the impact rodman had on championship teams, Jordan Coming back from baseball early trying to front run to another title, the bulls slipped up to the magic in the conference semis for a second straight year with jordan scoring just 24 points in a crucial game 6, It was only when they added rodman were they able to overcome the magic and get back to the finals. Not to mention also catching a break with shaq going to the lakers. the following year they added rodman.

To put it into perspective, The bulls only won when Other powerhouses either got old/injured or the bulls were stacked enough to where it didn't matter. He Choked in 89-90 against the pistons and didn't beat them until they got old, He played baseball to avoid the Rockets/getting suspended and choked against the magic in game 6 of the 95 semis, Only after they acquired rodman were they able to return to the finals.

[3ball]

Well it's no surprise the impact rodman had on championship teams,


:facepalm :rolleyes:

Rodman was 34-36 years old as a Bull and his all-star days were long gone..

He didn't make ANY all-defensive teams in 1997 or 1998 and only averaged 4/8 for the entire 1997 playoffs.. In 1998 playoffs, he wasn't even a starter.

Think about it - the 1996 Bulls had the highest ORtg ever in 1996 (along with 1987 Lakers), even though their PF averaged 5 ppg.. That's goat teamwork, which makes Jordan's off-ball, quick-decision game the goat STYLE, since he was scoring more than anyone ever has [I]without hurting teamwork.






He Choked in 89-90 against the pistons


Actually, 1990 was the first year Jordan had an all-star teammate and that's all he needed to take the champion Pistons 7 games in ECF - then he won 6 rings with the same 1 all-star teammate.

Jordan went 6/6 with just 1 all-star teammate, while Lebron is only 3/7 with 6 all-star teammates.. Clearly, Jordan did far more with far less.





MJ Choked in 89-90 against the pistons


Actually, he averaged 32/7/6 on 47%, while being hounded by all-nba defenders and HOF's Dumars and Rodman.

Jordan also got 31/8/9 on 48% in Game 7 - the 9 assists are remarkable, since his 2nd option was busy having the biggest choke in history (2 points, 1-10)..

Pippen admitted to choking in the Bad Boys documentary by saying "it was the pressure.. the more the pressure grew, the pounding grew" - see this admission here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s).
.

[TheWinningFam]

:facepalm :rolleyes:

Rodman was 34-36 years old as a Bull and his all-star days were long gone..

He didn't make ANY all-defensive teams in 1997 or 1998 and only averaged 4/8 for the entire 1997 playoffs.. In 1998 playoffs, he wasn't even a starter.

Think about it - the 1996 Bulls had the highest ORtg ever in 1996 (along with 1987 Lakers), even though their PF averaged 5 ppg.. That's goat teamwork, which makes Jordan's off-ball, quick-decision game the goat STYLE, since he was scoring more than anyone ever has without hurting teamwork.




No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career.................................


let alone by an average margin of 15.4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) ppg like Jordan (goat scoring load)


...................while also leading in assists most seasons.



let that sink in bud



Actually, 1990 was the first year Jordan had an all-star teammate and that's all he needed to take the champion Pistons 7 games in ECF - then he won 6 rings with the same 1 all-star teammate.

Jordan went 6/6 with just 1 all-star teammate, while Lebron is only 3/7 with 6 all-star teammates.. Clearly, Jordan did far more with far less.



Actually, he averaged 32/7/6 on 47%, while being hounded by all-nba defenders and HOF's Dumars and Rodman.

Jordan also got 31/8/9 on 48% in Game 7 - the 9 assists are remarkable, since his 2nd option was busy having the biggest choke in history (2 points, 1-10)..

Pippen admitted to choking in the Bad Boys documentary by saying "it was the pressure.. the more the pressure grew, the pounding grew" - see this admission here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s).
To put it into perspective, The bulls only won when Other powerhouses either got old/injured or the bulls were stacked enough to where it didn't matter. They Lost in 89-90 against the pistons and didn't beat them until they got old, He played baseball to avoid the Rockets/getting suspended and lost against the magic in game 6 of the 95 semis, and without Rodman's outstanding play in the final game with 19 rebounds, 9 points and 5 assists in the 1996 finals it would have went 7 games.

[Dragonyeuw]

[I]

To put it into perspective, The bulls only won when Other powerhouses either got old/injured or the bulls were stacked enough to where it didn't matter. He Choked in 89-90 against the pistons and didn't beat them until they got old, He played baseball to avoid the Rockets/getting suspended and choked against the magic in game 6 of the 95 semis, Only after they acquired rodman were they able to return to the finals.

Jordan was a Scottie Pippen migraine away in 1990 from possibly beating a prime Pistons team in 90. That was before both Pippen and Grant hit their primes. 32/7/6 on 57% TS with 31/ 9/8 in game 7 is choking now?

28/8/7 on 42%
25/7/8 on 42%
26/9/8 on 45%

Those were Lebron's 2007 playoff statlines through the Eastern conference. Good enough to beat the Wizards, Bulls, and aging Pistons, wouldn't have been good enough to beat the prime Pistons and Celtics seeing as the first time he faced REAL competition in the finals, he did this:

22/7/7 on 36%

Your comment about leaving to avoid the Rockets is especially retarded. If MJ left the game at 30 in his prime to avoid the Rockets, why would he bother returning at 32, with no real power forward on the team, the Rockets entrenched as defending champions and Hakeem established as the best player in the league? Following your 'logic', those conditions would have kept Jordan away, not encouraged him to return. But then, why am I answering this seriously?

[LostCause]

Well it's no surprise the impact rodman had on championship teams, Jordan Coming back from baseball early trying to front run to another title, the bulls slipped up to the magic in the conference semis for a second straight year with jordan scoring just 24 points in a crucial game 6, It was only when they added rodman were they able to overcome the magic and get back to the finals. Not to mention also catching a break with shaq going to the lakers. the following year they added rodman.

Don't be ridiculous, for someone supposedly "combating" a troll it's hard to distinguish you from being one

Jordan was out of rhythm and shape for the NBA season after missing over a year, and he also had new teammates to learn very quickly to play with near the end of the season

24pts/9rbs/7ast/4stl/4blk is a statline no one can imply is "choking", and this was an out of shape Jordan

The bolded is lol. Shaq was stlll on Orlando the following year and they were swept, and it would've done him no good to stay in ORL after that seeing as Penny missed many games due to injury then his career fell off after a major one in 98. So that point was stupid, Shaq staying in ORL is hardly Jordan catching a break. Shaq would've toiled away in obscurity


To put it into perspective, The bulls only won when Other powerhouses either got old/injured or the bulls were stacked enough to where it didn't matter.

The 90 Lakers weren't a bad team at all. In fact, M He Choked in 89-90 against the pistons and didn't beat them until they got old, He played baseball to avoid the Rockets/getting suspended and choked against the magic in game 6 of the 95 semis, Only after they acquired rodman were they able to return to the finals.

Only with Jordan is this argument used, which is hilarious because it shows just how desperate his detractors are that they have to make silly arguments like this. The Pistons got "old" despite them being the defending back-to-back Champions before being swept :roll: . However instead of responding to that nonsense, I'll just throw it back:

Lebron didn't even make the Finals or start winning rings until other powerhouses got old/injured or his teams were stacked enough to where it didn't matter. The 07 Pistons team he beat to get to the Finals? They were without their perennieal DPOY and Defensive Anchor/Rebounder Ben Wallace and didn't even have the same HOF Coach (Larry Brown). The Celtics? Didn't beat them until they got older and Kendrick Perkins was never there when Bron beat them, Perkins being a big part of their defense to the point Doc Rivers himself cited him as the difference between winning and losing to the Lakers

Bron was part of one of the most stacked rosters of all time in 11 yet lost to one of the WORST in 6 games, and a large part of that was his utter disappearance. For comparison, tell me which one of these lines sounds more like a "choker"

A) 24pts/9rbs/7ast/4stl/4blk on 42% shooting
B) 8pts/9rbs/7ast/2stl/0blk on 27% shooting

or (Choose Two)

A)18ppg/7rpg/7apg/2spg/1bpg on 47%
B)30ppg/6rpg/7apg/2spg/1bpg on 46%
C)36ppg/7rpg/6apg/2spg/1bpg on 47%
D)22ppg/7rpg/7apg/1spg/1bpg on 36%

For the first, I choose B. Second, I choose A and D. How about you?

[LostCause]

Jordan was a Scottie Pippen migraine away in 1990 from possibly beating a prime Pistons team in 90. That was before both Pippen and Grant hit their primes. 32/7/6 on 57% TS with 31/ 9/8 in game 7 is choking now?

28/8/7 on 42%
25/7/8 on 42%
26/9/8 on 45%

Those were Lebron's 2007 playoff statlines through the Eastern conference. Good enough to beat the Wizards, Bulls, and aging Pistons, wouldn't have been good enough to beat the prime Pistons and Celtics seeing as the first time he faced REAL competition in the finals, he did this:

22/7/7 on 36%

Your comment about leaving to avoid the Rockets is especially retarded. If MJ left the game at 30 in his prime to avoid the Rockets, why would he bother returning at 32, with no real power forward on the team, the Rockets entrenched as defending champions and Hakeem established as the best player in the league? Following your 'logic', those conditions would have kept Jordan away, not encouraged him to return. But then, why am I answering this seriously?

I fell for the same trap

Won't happen again

[BedroomBully]

So you think that there was a better candidate than Mo Williams after he was put in for the other guy? I'd love to hear that case.

I cant remember off the top of my head who deserved it over MO, but I do remember his crying like a hoe and Bron and the Cavs pushing hard for him to make the reserves. Point is, he was not selected. He was only selected because someone got injured and the NBA did not have an immediate replacement other than him. He had a good season, but not at an All-Star caliber.

[TheWinningFam]

Jordan was a Scottie Pippen migraine away in 1990 from possibly beating a prime Pistons team in 90. That was before both Pippen and Grant hit their primes. 32/7/6 on 57% TS with 31/ 9/8 in game 7 is choking now?

28/8/7 on 42%
25/7/8 on 42%
26/9/8 on 45%

Those were Lebron's 2007 playoff statlines through the Eastern conference. Good enough to beat the Wizards, Bulls, and aging Pistons, wouldn't have been good enough to beat the prime Pistons and Celtics seeing as the first time he faced REAL competition in the finals, he did this:

22/7/7 on 36%

Your comment about leaving to avoid the Rockets is especially retarded. If MJ left the game at 30 in his prime to avoid the Rockets, why would he bother returning at 32, with no real power forward on the team, the Rockets entrenched as defending champions and Hakeem established as the best player in the league? Following your 'logic', those conditions would have kept Jordan away, not encouraged him to return. But then, why am I answering this seriously?
The fact that you have to bring up lebron proves my point. :lol

Noone's talking about lebron, The fact still remains that jordan had 4 other 10+ ppg scorers in the 89 playoffs vs the pistons and still lost.

The point is Jordan only won when they acquired a superior supporting cast severely outplaying his opponents, while the other teams got Injured/old He lost in 89-90 to the pistons, he choked vs the magic in 95

Think about it, Lebron took the champion warriors, (A team better than any team jordan faced in his finals career) to 6 games with his top option averaging 14/7/1 and his top options injured and coming off a lottery season otoh, jordan Got destroyed in 95 with his entire team healthy and a 20/9/5 averaging pippen against the magic in the conference semis. That same team later on got destroyed by the champion rockets.

[TheWinningFam]

Don't be ridiculous, for someone supposedly "combating" a troll it's hard to distinguish you from being one

Jordan was out of rhythm and shape for the NBA season after missing over a year, and he also had new teammates to learn very quickly to play with near the end of the season

24pts/9rbs/7ast/4stl/4blk is a statline no one can imply is "choking", and this was an out of shape Jordan

The bolded is lol. Shaq was stlll on Orlando the following year and they were swept, and it would've done him no good to stay in ORL after that seeing as Penny missed many games due to injury then his career fell off after a major one in 98. So that point was stupid, Shaq staying in ORL is hardly Jordan catching a break. Shaq would've toiled away in obscurity



Only with Jordan is this argument used, which is hilarious because it shows just how desperate his detractors are that they have to make silly arguments like this. The Pistons got "old" despite them being the defending back-to-back Champions before being swept :roll: . However instead of responding to that nonsense, I'll just throw it back:

Lebron didn't even make the Finals or start winning rings until other powerhouses got old/injured or his teams were stacked enough to where it didn't matter. The 07 Pistons team he beat to get to the Finals? They were without their perennieal DPOY and Defensive Anchor/Rebounder Ben Wallace and didn't even have the same HOF Coach (Larry Brown). The Celtics? Didn't beat them until they got older and Kendrick Perkins was never there when Bron beat them, Perkins being a big part of their defense to the point Doc Rivers himself cited him as the difference between winning and losing to the Lakers

Bron was part of one of the most stacked rosters of all time in 11 yet lost to one of the WORST in 6 games, and a large part of that was his utter disappearance. For comparison, tell me which one of these lines sounds more like a "choker"

A) 24pts/9rbs/7ast/4stl/4blk on 42% shooting
B) 8pts/9rbs/7ast/2stl/0blk on 27% shooting

or (Choose Two)

A)18ppg/7rpg/7apg/2spg/1bpg on 47%
B)30ppg/6rpg/7apg/2spg/1bpg on 46%
C)36ppg/7rpg/6apg/2spg/1bpg on 47%
D)22ppg/7rpg/7apg/1spg/1bpg on 36%

For the first, I choose B. Second, I choose A and D. How about you?
jordan Got destroyed in 95 with his entire team healthy and a 20/9/5 averaging pippen against the magic in the conference semis. That same team later on got destroyed by the champion rockets. That's about as bad as lebron averaging 26/7/7 after being relegated to a 3rd option. And without wade's missplay in game 4 the heat go up 3-1 and easily win the series.

[BedroomBully]

Point is, Jordan wasnt going anywhere before they added Pippen and Phil. MJ would get stats, but he was not a winner.

[TheWinningFam]

Point is, Jordan wasnt going anywhere before they added Pippen and Phil. MJ would get stats, but he was not a winner.
Exactly, this shit aint rocket science.
Jordan only won titles when he had the talent/supporting cast to overpower his opponent's ontop of the opposition getting old/injured,

They lost in 89-90 to the pistons, and finally won after the pistons deteriorated. and choked in the 95 playoffs with pippen averaging 19/9/5 to the lowly magic, who later got hammered by the champion rockets. Only after they acquired rodman did they get back to the finals.

[TheWinningFam]

To put it into perspective jordan never won when he didn't have the superior supporting cast. Otoh it was required of lebron to do that to win 3 titles

Jordan's 95 choke was worse because it was in the semifinals vs a team that got destroyed in 4 games in the finals , otoh lebron's 2011 loss was against a championship team that swept kobe's back to back champion lakers in the previous round..

[BedroomBully]

To put it into perspective jordan never won when he didn't have the superior supporting cast. Otoh it was required of lebron to do that to win 3 titles

Jordan's 95 choke was worse because it was vs a team that got destroyed in the finals while in the semifinals, otoh lebron's 2011 loss was against a championship team that swept kobe's back to back champion lakers in the previous round..


Exactly. The only reason why he beat the Celtics and Pistons was because they got old! That is a fact. Also, going into the finals, Jordan's bulls were always the favorites. Never was he the underdog, and his team was always 100% healthy. But dont tell 3ball that, he will turn it into a thesis that i never read anyways.

[LostCause]

Point is, Jordan wasnt going anywhere before they added Pippen and Phil. MJ would get stats, but he was not a winner.
This probably goes over the capability of your mental abilities, but there's a such concept as players improving. Apparently, Jordan was GOAT his first 3 years in the league. Otherwise, your perspective is stupid


To put it into perspective jordan never won when he didn't have the superior supporting cast. Otoh it was required of lebron to do that to win 3 titles


Exactly. The only reason why he beat the Celtics and Pistons was because they got old! That is a fact. Also, going into the finals, Jordan's bulls were always the favorites. Never was he the underdog, and his team was always 100% healthy. But dont tell 3ball that, he will turn it into a thesis that i never read anyways.

Wrong, StayLosing I remember when I first joined this site and made you look flat out silly in a debate that exposed your lack of basketball knowledge before the year 09. You're displaying that now. It was a wide-help belief that the 98 Bulls were the underdogs against Utah, because their roster was so stacked. Same for the 93 Suns and to an extend, the 90 Lakers. To quote Pippen:


''I can deal with losing. I just don't want to lose.'' Scottie Pippen added: ''Everyone is expecting the Jazz to walk away with this series. We're underdogs, no question.''

Can't expect you to have known that, though.

As for Lebron not having the superior supporting cast for all 3 titles, I'm sure the evidence you use to say Jordan did will also prove Lebron did as well, so go ahead

@His teams were always 100% healthy :roll: I guess we're just gonna pretend Pippen was healthy for the second three-peat now

Meanwhile, Lebron legit never got past the Pistons before they traded their most impactful player and lost their HOF coach, or the Celtics until they got old and were long past their championship window. Dude even lost to a DWIGHT HOWARD team of people DWIGHT HOWARD himself said were forgettables, who were then swept in the Finals by KOBE'S team. The same Kobe that gets railed on for playing badly in the Finals

Just stop LosingFam, don't earn yourself the reputation of a troll like Dray n Klay with these asinine comments


Jordan's 95 choke was worse because it was in the semifinals vs a team that got destroyed in 4 games in the finals , otoh lebron's 2011 loss was against a championship team that swept kobe's back to back champion lakers in the previous round...

But Bron lost to a DWIGHT HOWARD team that was nearly swept BY Kobe's Lakers team :roll:

Stop it fellas

[BedroomBully]

This probably goes over the capability of your mental abilities, but there's a such concept as players improving. Apparently, Jordan was GOAT his first 3 years in the league. Otherwise, your perspective is stupid





Wrong, I remember when I first joined this site and made you look flat out silly in a debate that exposed your lack of basketball knowledge before the year 09. You're displaying that now. It was a wide-help belief that the 98 Bulls were the underdogs against Utah, because their roster was so stacked. Same for the 90 Lakers. To quote Pippen:



Can't expect you to have known that, though.

As for Lebron not having the superior supporting cast for all 3 titles, I'm sure the evidence you use to say Jordan did will also prove Lebron did as well, so go ahead

@His teams were always 100% healthy :roll: I guess we're just gonna pretend Pippen was healthy for the second three-peat now

Meanwhile, Lebron legit never got past the Pistons before they traded their most impactful player and lost their HOF coach, or the Celtics until they got old and were long past their championship window. Dude even lost to a DWIGHT HOWARD team of people DWIGHT HOWARD himself said were forgettables, who were then swept in the Finals by KOBE'S team. The same Kobe that gets railed on for playing badly in the Finals

Just stop LosingFam, don't earn yourself the reputation of a troll like Dray n Klay with these asinine comments
You obviously don't know 3ball or ever read some of his ridiculous statements. The clown seems to believe that when MJ arrived in the NBA, he was the second coming of Jesus Christ. The claims this guy makes will literally make you cringe. I suggest you research before you start talking $hit next time fat chump.

[TheWinningFam]

This probably goes over the capability of your mental abilities, but there's a such concept as players improving. Apparently, Jordan was GOAT his first 3 years in the league. Otherwise, your perspective is stupid. Why did jordan's bulls only lose 4 more games in his absence while allegedly having a lesser supporting cast and facing tougher competition? Otoh, Lebron improved his team's record every season and arrived in the finals ahead of schedule in 2007.






Wrong, I remember when I first joined this site and made you look flat out silly in a debate that exposed your lack of basketball knowledge before the year 09. You're displaying that now. It was a wide-help belief that the 98 Bulls were the underdogs against Utah, So jordan beat 1 stacked with a lesser supporting cast compared to lebron's 3. Do the math.http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/ehh3.png





As for Lebron not having the superior supporting cast for all 3 titles, I'm sure the evidence you use to say Jordan did will also prove Lebron did as well, so go ahead Lebron had a lesser cast while facing greater competition, the 2016 warriors and 2013 spurs and 2012 thunder are better teams than anything jordan faced in his 6 finals, and would destroy any of the teams jordan faced. thats facts.


@His teams were always 100% healthy :roll: I guess we're just gonna pretend Pippen was healthy for the second three-peat now
Jordan lost in the SEMIS to the magic with pippen averaging 19/9/5. That same team got destroyed in the finals.
Please show me where jordan won without pippen playing.

Meanwhile, Lebron legit never got past the Pistons before they traded their most impactful player and lost their HOF coach, or the Celtics until they got old and were long past their championship window.The heat wouldn't have gotten past the 2012 celtics without lebron's GOAT game 6 and 7 performances. :hammerhead:


who were then swept in the Finals by KOBE'S team. The same Kobe that gets railed on for playing badly in the FinalsThe lakers had great teamwork and production, Lebron never lost in the playoffs in his prime.[/QUOTE]The lakers had great teamwork and good production from ron artest gasol fisher, and others. and even then all but 2 of the five games were within 10 points close.
Lebron lost while averaging 38 points, without that they dont even make the playoffs.
Jordan padded up to 31 ppg, his second option averaged 19/9/5, and the team that beat them got destroyed in the finals by the rockets in just 4 games.
You truly are a lost cause :facepalm .

[fourkicks44]

http://www.bnrglobal.com/SnakStop/product-detail/gummipeachrings.jpg

[Dragonyeuw]

The fact that you have to bring up lebron proves my point. :lol

Noone's talking about lebron, The fact still remains that jordan had 4 other 10+ ppg scorers in the 89 playoffs vs the pistons and still lost.

The point is Jordan only won when they acquired a superior supporting cast severely outplaying his opponents, while the other teams got Injured/old He lost in 89-90 to the pistons, he choked vs the magic in 95

Think about it, Lebron took the champion warriors, (A team better than any team jordan faced in his finals career) to 6 games with his top option averaging 14/7/1 and his top options injured and coming off a lottery season otoh, jordan Got destroyed in 95 with his entire team healthy and a 20/9/5 averaging pippen against the magic in the conference semis. That same team later on got destroyed by the champion rockets.

Lebron's name surfaced on this thread way before I said anything, so while you're trying to play some BS game Dubeta/dray and klay/ inbred c**nt alt # 101, the points of my post remain. This BS about 'he only won when the greats got old/ injured' seems to only be used when applying to Jordan. Is it MJ's fault that he only got a good team around him when the Celtics were past their peak? Nope. The Pistons were past their prime? They were defending NBA champions, and all of their core players( Isiah, Dumars, Rodman) were younger than Lebron is right now with less seasons under their belts. That same team who won the prior year? They were taken to game 7 and were gifted a Scottie Pippen migraine aiding their victory. That 91 Bulls team beats any version of the Detroit Pistons. The 92 Bulls team? Please. One can make the same argument that Lebron didn't win until the Garnett/Pierce/Allen team were on the decline, or that he didn't win until Duncan got old( and needed a Ray Allen 3 to avoid losing to an older Duncan and being 0-3 against him in the finals). We can spin this shit any way you want it.

I'll repeat, Lebron got the Cavs to the finals in 2007 averaging 42% and 26ppg. That shit wouldn't cut it against the Pistons and the Celtics.

Also, the 2015 Warriors needed a string of injuries to clear their path to the finals, and nearly lost to OKC before Lebron even got a crack at them. This Warriors team has proven in the last 2 years, as has Curry, that they can't duplicate their regular season performance in the playoffs. When was the last time a 2-time MVP got to the finals and didn't get a single FMVP vote in either series? Is this supposed to be impressive? The fact that Lebron was able to ISO his way to taking that team to 6 games in 2015 says as much about the Warriors as it does Lebron.

[ClipperRevival]

Lebron's name surfaced on this thread way before I said anything, so while you're trying to play some BS game Dubeta/dray and klay/ inbred c**nt alt # 101, the points of my post remain. This BS about 'he only won when the greats got old/ injured' seems to only be used when applying to Jordan. Is it MJ's fault that he only got a good team around him when the Celtics were past their peak? Nope. The Pistons were past their prime? They were defending NBA champions, and all of their core players( Isiah, Dumars, Rodman) were younger than Lebron is right now with less seasons under their belts. That same team who won the prior year? They were taken to game 7 and were gifted a Scottie Pippen migraine aiding their victory. That 91 Bulls team beats any version of the Detroit Pistons. The 92 Bulls team? Please. One can make the same argument that Lebron didn't win until the Garnett/Pierce/Allen team were on the decline, or that he didn't win until Duncan got old( and needed a Ray Allen 3 to avoid losing to an older Duncan and being 0-3 against him in the finals). We can spin this shit any way you want it.

I'll repeat, Lebron got the Cavs to the finals in 2007 averaging 42% and 26ppg. That shit wouldn't cut it against the Pistons and the Celtics.

Also, the 2015 Warriors needed a string of injuries to clear their path to the finals, and nearly lost to OKC before Lebron even got a crack at them. This Warriors team has proven in the last 2 years, as has Curry, that they can't duplicate their regular season performance in the playoffs. When was the last time a 2-time MVP got to the finals and didn't get a single FMVP vote in either series? Is this supposed to be impressive? The fact that Lebron was able to ISO his way to taking that team to 6 games in 2015 says as much about the Warriors as it does Lebron.

100% accurate with no bias.

[fourkicks44]

Lebron's name surfaced on this thread way before I said anything, so while you're trying to play some BS game Dubeta/dray and klay/ inbred c**nt alt # 101, the points of my post remain. This BS about 'he only won when the greats got old/ injured' seems to only be used when applying to Jordan. Is it MJ's fault that he only got a good team around him when the Celtics were past their peak? Nope. The Pistons were past their prime? They were defending NBA champions, and all of their core players( Isiah, Dumars, Rodman) were younger than Lebron is right now with less seasons under their belts. That same team who won the prior year? They were taken to game 7 and were gifted a Scottie Pippen migraine aiding their victory. That 91 Bulls team beats any version of the Detroit Pistons. The 92 Bulls team? Please. One can make the same argument that Lebron didn't win until the Garnett/Pierce/Allen team were on the decline, or that he didn't win until Duncan got old( and needed a Ray Allen 3 to avoid losing to an older Duncan and being 0-3 against him in the finals). We can spin this shit any way you want it.

I'll repeat, Lebron got the Cavs to the finals in 2007 averaging 42% and 26ppg. That shit wouldn't cut it against the Pistons and the Celtics.

Also, the 2015 Warriors needed a string of injuries to clear their path to the finals, and nearly lost to OKC before Lebron even got a crack at them. This Warriors team has proven in the last 2 years, as has Curry, that they can't duplicate their regular season performance in the playoffs. When was the last time a 2-time MVP got to the finals and didn't get a single FMVP vote in either series? Is this supposed to be impressive? The fact that Lebron was able to ISO his way to taking that team to 6 games in 2015 says as much about the Warriors as it does Lebron.

Damn... well said.

Wow.... :applause:

[LostCause]

Why did jordan's bulls only lose 4 more games in his absence while allegedly having a lesser supporting cast and facing tougher competition?

Bulls record before Jordan: 27-55
Rookie Jordan: 38-44
86 without Jordan: 21-43. That's a 26 win team over 82 games
86 with Jordan? 9-9. That's a 41 win team over 82 games

Your point is weak


Otoh, Lebron improved his team's record every season and arrived in the finals ahead of schedule in 2007.

Lebron made the Finals in 2007 by beating a Pistons team that lost it's most impactful player. You may have heard of him: 4x DPOY and Former rebounding king in Ben Wallace. In addition to not having Larry Browns defensive brilliance coaching them anymore

That's like taking Larry Bird and KC Jones off of the Celtics, or Dennis Rodman and Chuck Daly from the Pistons. So Lebron only got to the Finals because Detroit's Championship team was stripped of it's best player and a HOF Coach? Sounds cool


So jordan beat 1 stacked with a lesser supporting cast compared to lebron's 3. Do the math.

Stay in school, youngster. Here's my full quote:
It was a wide-help belief that the 98 Bulls were the underdogs against Utah, because their roster was so stacked. Same for the 93 Suns and to an extend, the 90 Lakers

You learn to read in kindergarten


Lebron had a lesser cast while facing greater competition, the 2016 warriors and 2013 spurs and 2012 thunder are better teams than anything jordan faced in his 6 finals, and would destroy any of the teams jordan faced. thats facts.

These are not facts. By SRS ratings their respective opponents rank thusly:

1) 2016 Warriors (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2016.html)
2) 1997 Jazz (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/1997.html)
3. 96 Sonics (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1996.html)
4. 92 Blazers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/1992.html)

Or Elo rating

1. 16 Warriors
2. 97 Jazz
3. 98 Jazz
4. 13 Spurs

I don't know what "facts" mean to you, but "facts" to me are things that can be verified and not debatable. Show the evidence that the 13 Spurs and 12 Thunder are better than any team Jordan faced in the Finals. The only team that you can make that claim for is Golden State

You seem to have your "facts" mixed up. It's true that overall Lebron has FACED better teams than Jordan has in the Finals, but Lebron hasn't WON against better teams than Jordan has with the exception of the Warriors


Jordan lost in the SEMIS to the magic with pippen averaging 19/9/5. That same team got destroyed in the finals.

The 09 Cavs won 66 games, had on SRS rating of 8.68, ranked 14th all time in Elo rating yet lost to Dwight Howards magic with Mo Williams averaging 18/4/4/1. The same Dwight Howard team that was nearly swept by Kobe's Lakers. The same Kobe yal clown all the time for being a choker

You're citing a season where Jordan literally jumped into the NBA again in the tail end of the season after sitting out for over a year, thinking yourself to be making some valid point. You're just making yourself look dumb. We know Jordans circumstances that season, why did Bron come up short though? He retired too? :roll:

Oh and the year after Bron lost to the Magic? He lost to the Celtics in the SEMI's. If you're going to try to make a point, don't make one that can also be used against you. Who does that


Please show me where jordan won without pippen playing.

Show me Lebron winning a ring without James Jones. No wonder he calls him champ. Bron hasn't won a ring without James Jones there


The heat wouldn't have gotten past the 2012 celtics without lebron's GOAT game 6 and 7 performances. :hammerhead:

That's nice but irrelevant, it comes back to that "learn to read" suggestion I made to you earlier

More on that, remember these claims of yours?
http://prnt.sc/cnwkqg

You don't get to go full retard then pretend it never happened. Go ahead and support your point that Jordan got "lucky" Shaq went to LA and how that statline is choking. Furthermore, don't run from my question fam. I made it multiple choice too, no penalty for guessing:

http://prnt.sc/cnwlqm

Don't say another word to me until you answer this


The lakers had great teamwork and production, Lebron never lost in the playoffs in his prime.

....... So Lebron didn't lose in 2009, 10, 11, 14, 15? Or are those years mysteriously not his prime? Or is this a case of you not understanding that the Finals are part of the playoffs?


The lakers had great teamwork and good production from ron artest gasol fisher, and others. and even then all but 2 of the five games were within 10 points close.
Lebron lost while averaging 38 points, without that they dont even make the playoffs.
Jordan padded up to 31 ppg, his second option averaged 19/9/5, and the team that beat them got destroyed in the finals by the rockets in just 4 games.
You truly are a lost cause :facepalm .

Here's some interesting information.
http://image.prntscr.com/image/958f7805602945f7ad3f8396c86c941f.png

Notice the trend here? Lebron has the 2nd, 3rd and 5th most stacked teams since 1980. Yet, for some reason, his "stacked" teams almost always perform far less than the sum of their parts. There's not a single Bron team on that list that performs as good as or better than they should. Compare that to Jordans team, where Jordan has the 4th, 6th, 7th and 10th, and 2/4 (Or half, since you seem to have missed grade school) Jordans teams perform far better than expectations and in another one they're as good as they should be. Much as yal give 3-ball shit, dude's not even wrong about Jordans style of play being more effective at maximizing teamwork. That's factually supported (Oh and for Lols, see that 95 Magic team on the bottom? Let that sink in)

Another interesting piece of information? That 2nd most stacked team since 1980? Is also ranked 10th here for teammate rating amongst conference finalists since '85 (Excluding their Best player)
http://i0.wp.com/espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png

Yet that team lost to a Mavericks team ranked WAY near the bottom of the list. In fact that Mavs team was WORSE than the 2014 Heat and beat a team ranked better than the 2015 Warriors. Know who choked away the series? Well, just answer this question
http://prnt.sc/cnwlqm

And it'll dawn on you. StayLosingFam

[Da_Realist]

Bulls record before Jordan: 27-55
Rookie Jordan: 38-44
86 without Jordan: 21-43. That's a 26 win team over 82 games
86 with Jordan? 9-9. That's a 41 win team over 82 games

Your point is weak



Lebron made the Finals in 2007 by beating a Pistons team that lost it's most impactful player. You may have heard of him: 4x DPOY and Former rebounding king in Ben Wallace. In addition to not having Larry Browns defensive brilliance coaching them anymore

That's like taking Larry Bird and KC Jones off of the Celtics, or Dennis Rodman and Chuck Daly from the Pistons. So Lebron only got to the Finals because Detroit's Championship team was stripped of it's best player and a HOF Coach? Sounds cool



Stay in school, youngster. Here's my full quote:
It was a wide-help belief that the 98 Bulls were the underdogs against Utah, because their roster was so stacked. Same for the 93 Suns and to an extend, the 90 Lakers

You learn to read in kindergarten



These are not facts. By SRS ratings their respective opponents rank thusly:

1) 2016 Warriors (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2016.html)
2) 1997 Jazz (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/1997.html)
3. 96 Sonics (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1996.html)
4. 92 Blazers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/1992.html)

Or Elo rating

1. 16 Warriors
2. 97 Jazz
3. 98 Jazz
4. 13 Spurs

I don't know what "facts" mean to you, but "facts" to me are things that can be verified and not debatable. Show the evidence that the 13 Spurs and 12 Thunder are better than any team Jordan faced in the Finals. The only team that you can make that claim for is Golden State

You seem to have your "facts" mixed up. It's true that overall Lebron has FACED better teams than Jordan has in the Finals, but Lebron hasn't WON against better teams than Jordan has with the exception of the Warriors



The 09 Cavs won 66 games, had on SRS rating of 8.68, ranked 14th all time in Elo rating yet lost to Dwight Howards magic with Mo Williams averaging 18/4/4/1. The same Dwight Howard team that was nearly swept by Kobe's Lakers. The same Kobe yal clown all the time for being a choker

You're citing a season where Jordan literally jumped into the NBA again in the tail end of the season after sitting out for over a year, thinking yourself to be making some valid point. You're just making yourself look dumb. We know Jordans circumstances that season, why did Bron come up short though? He retired too? :roll:

Oh and the year after Bron lost to the Magic? He lost to the Celtics in the SEMI's. If you're going to try to make a point, don't make one that can also be used against you. Who does that



Show me Lebron winning a ring without James Jones. No wonder he calls him champ. Bron hasn't won a ring without James Jones there



That's nice but irrelevant, it comes back to that "learn to read" suggestion I made to you earlier

More on that, remember these claims of yours?
http://prnt.sc/cnwkqg

You don't get to go full retard then pretend it never happened. Go ahead and support your point that Jordan got "lucky" Shaq went to LA and how that statline is choking. Furthermore, don't run from my question fam. I made it multiple choice too, no penalty for guessing:

http://prnt.sc/cnwlqm

Don't say another word to me until you answer this



....... So Lebron didn't lose in 2009, 10, 11, 14, 15? Or are those years mysteriously not his prime? Or is this a case of you not understanding that the Finals are part of the playoffs?



Here's some interesting information.
http://image.prntscr.com/image/958f7805602945f7ad3f8396c86c941f.png

Notice the trend here? Lebron has the 2nd, 3rd and 5th most stacked teams since 1980. Yet, for some reason, his "stacked" teams almost always perform far less than the sum of their parts. There's not a single Bron team on that list that performs as good as or better than they should. Compare that to Jordans team, where Jordan has the 4th, 6th, 7th and 10th, and 2/4 (Or half, since you seem to have missed grade school) Jordans teams perform far better than expectations and in another one they're as good as they should be. Much as yal give 3-ball shit, dude's not even wrong about Jordans style of play being more effective at maximizing teamwork. That's factually supported (Oh and for Lols, see that 95 Magic team on the bottom? Let that sink in)

Another interesting piece of information? That 2nd most stacked team since 1980? Is also ranked 10th here for teammate rating amongst conference finalists since '85 (Excluding their Best player)
http://i0.wp.com/espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png

Yet that team lost to a Mavericks team ranked WAY near the bottom of the list. In fact that Mavs team was WORSE than the 2014 Heat and beat a team ranked better than the 2015 Warriors. Know who choked away the series? Well, just answer this question
http://prnt.sc/cnwlqm

And it'll dawn on you. StayLosingFam

Brutal :oldlol:

[Dragonyeuw]

Bulls record before Jordan: 27-55
Rookie Jordan: 38-44
86 without Jordan: 21-43. That's a 26 win team over 82 games
86 with Jordan? 9-9. That's a 41 win team over 82 games

Your point is weak



Lebron made the Finals in 2007 by beating a Pistons team that lost it's most impactful player. You may have heard of him: 4x DPOY and Former rebounding king in Ben Wallace. In addition to not having Larry Browns defensive brilliance coaching them anymore

That's like taking Larry Bird and KC Jones off of the Celtics, or Dennis Rodman and Chuck Daly from the Pistons. So Lebron only got to the Finals because Detroit's Championship team was stripped of it's best player and a HOF Coach? Sounds cool



Stay in school, youngster. Here's my full quote:
It was a wide-help belief that the 98 Bulls were the underdogs against Utah, because their roster was so stacked. Same for the 93 Suns and to an extend, the 90 Lakers

You learn to read in kindergarten



These are not facts. By SRS ratings their respective opponents rank thusly:

1) 2016 Warriors (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2016.html)
2) 1997 Jazz (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/1997.html)
3. 96 Sonics (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1996.html)
4. 92 Blazers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/1992.html)

Or Elo rating

1. 16 Warriors
2. 97 Jazz
3. 98 Jazz
4. 13 Spurs

I don't know what "facts" mean to you, but "facts" to me are things that can be verified and not debatable. Show the evidence that the 13 Spurs and 12 Thunder are better than any team Jordan faced in the Finals. The only team that you can make that claim for is Golden State

You seem to have your "facts" mixed up. It's true that overall Lebron has FACED better teams than Jordan has in the Finals, but Lebron hasn't WON against better teams than Jordan has with the exception of the Warriors



The 09 Cavs won 66 games, had on SRS rating of 8.68, ranked 14th all time in Elo rating yet lost to Dwight Howards magic with Mo Williams averaging 18/4/4/1. The same Dwight Howard team that was nearly swept by Kobe's Lakers. The same Kobe yal clown all the time for being a choker

You're citing a season where Jordan literally jumped into the NBA again in the tail end of the season after sitting out for over a year, thinking yourself to be making some valid point. You're just making yourself look dumb. We know Jordans circumstances that season, why did Bron come up short though? He retired too? :roll:

Oh and the year after Bron lost to the Magic? He lost to the Celtics in the SEMI's. If you're going to try to make a point, don't make one that can also be used against you. Who does that



Show me Lebron winning a ring without James Jones. No wonder he calls him champ. Bron hasn't won a ring without James Jones there



That's nice but irrelevant, it comes back to that "learn to read" suggestion I made to you earlier

More on that, remember these claims of yours?
http://prnt.sc/cnwkqg

You don't get to go full retard then pretend it never happened. Go ahead and support your point that Jordan got "lucky" Shaq went to LA and how that statline is choking. Furthermore, don't run from my question fam. I made it multiple choice too, no penalty for guessing:

http://prnt.sc/cnwlqm

Don't say another word to me until you answer this



....... So Lebron didn't lose in 2009, 10, 11, 14, 15? Or are those years mysteriously not his prime? Or is this a case of you not understanding that the Finals are part of the playoffs?



Here's some interesting information.
http://image.prntscr.com/image/958f7805602945f7ad3f8396c86c941f.png

Notice the trend here? Lebron has the 2nd, 3rd and 5th most stacked teams since 1980. Yet, for some reason, his "stacked" teams almost always perform far less than the sum of their parts. There's not a single Bron team on that list that performs as good as or better than they should. Compare that to Jordans team, where Jordan has the 4th, 6th, 7th and 10th, and 2/4 (Or half, since you seem to have missed grade school) Jordans teams perform far better than expectations and in another one they're as good as they should be. Much as yal give 3-ball shit, dude's not even wrong about Jordans style of play being more effective at maximizing teamwork. That's factually supported (Oh and for Lols, see that 95 Magic team on the bottom? Let that sink in)

Another interesting piece of information? That 2nd most stacked team since 1980? Is also ranked 10th here for teammate rating amongst conference finalists since '85 (Excluding their Best player)
http://i0.wp.com/espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png

Yet that team lost to a Mavericks team ranked WAY near the bottom of the list. In fact that Mavs team was WORSE than the 2014 Heat and beat a team ranked better than the 2015 Warriors. Know who choked away the series? Well, just answer this question
http://prnt.sc/cnwlqm

And it'll dawn on you. StayLosingFam

A methodical, zero-fcuks given beatdown. :applause:

[andgar923]

Bulls record before Jordan: 27-55
Rookie Jordan: 38-44
86 without Jordan: 21-43. That's a 26 win team over 82 games
86 with Jordan? 9-9. That's a 41 win team over 82 games

Your point is weak



Lebron made the Finals in 2007 by beating a Pistons team that lost it's most impactful player. You may have heard of him: 4x DPOY and Former rebounding king in Ben Wallace. In addition to not having Larry Browns defensive brilliance coaching them anymore

That's like taking Larry Bird and KC Jones off of the Celtics, or Dennis Rodman and Chuck Daly from the Pistons. So Lebron only got to the Finals because Detroit's Championship team was stripped of it's best player and a HOF Coach? Sounds cool



Stay in school, youngster. Here's my full quote:
It was a wide-help belief that the 98 Bulls were the underdogs against Utah, because their roster was so stacked. Same for the 93 Suns and to an extend, the 90 Lakers

You learn to read in kindergarten



These are not facts. By SRS ratings their respective opponents rank thusly:

1) 2016 Warriors (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2016.html)
2) 1997 Jazz (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/1997.html)
3. 96 Sonics (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1996.html)
4. 92 Blazers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/1992.html)

Or Elo rating

1. 16 Warriors
2. 97 Jazz
3. 98 Jazz
4. 13 Spurs

I don't know what "facts" mean to you, but "facts" to me are things that can be verified and not debatable. Show the evidence that the 13 Spurs and 12 Thunder are better than any team Jordan faced in the Finals. The only team that you can make that claim for is Golden State

You seem to have your "facts" mixed up. It's true that overall Lebron has FACED better teams than Jordan has in the Finals, but Lebron hasn't WON against better teams than Jordan has with the exception of the Warriors



The 09 Cavs won 66 games, had on SRS rating of 8.68, ranked 14th all time in Elo rating yet lost to Dwight Howards magic with Mo Williams averaging 18/4/4/1. The same Dwight Howard team that was nearly swept by Kobe's Lakers. The same Kobe yal clown all the time for being a choker

You're citing a season where Jordan literally jumped into the NBA again in the tail end of the season after sitting out for over a year, thinking yourself to be making some valid point. You're just making yourself look dumb. We know Jordans circumstances that season, why did Bron come up short though? He retired too? :roll:

Oh and the year after Bron lost to the Magic? He lost to the Celtics in the SEMI's. If you're going to try to make a point, don't make one that can also be used against you. Who does that



Show me Lebron winning a ring without James Jones. No wonder he calls him champ. Bron hasn't won a ring without James Jones there



That's nice but irrelevant, it comes back to that "learn to read" suggestion I made to you earlier

More on that, remember these claims of yours?
http://prnt.sc/cnwkqg

You don't get to go full retard then pretend it never happened. Go ahead and support your point that Jordan got "lucky" Shaq went to LA and how that statline is choking. Furthermore, don't run from my question fam. I made it multiple choice too, no penalty for guessing:

http://prnt.sc/cnwlqm

Don't say another word to me until you answer this



....... So Lebron didn't lose in 2009, 10, 11, 14, 15? Or are those years mysteriously not his prime? Or is this a case of you not understanding that the Finals are part of the playoffs?



Here's some interesting information.
http://image.prntscr.com/image/958f7805602945f7ad3f8396c86c941f.png

Notice the trend here? Lebron has the 2nd, 3rd and 5th most stacked teams since 1980. Yet, for some reason, his "stacked" teams almost always perform far less than the sum of their parts. There's not a single Bron team on that list that performs as good as or better than they should. Compare that to Jordans team, where Jordan has the 4th, 6th, 7th and 10th, and 2/4 (Or half, since you seem to have missed grade school) Jordans teams perform far better than expectations and in another one they're as good as they should be. Much as yal give 3-ball shit, dude's not even wrong about Jordans style of play being more effective at maximizing teamwork. That's factually supported (Oh and for Lols, see that 95 Magic team on the bottom? Let that sink in)

Another interesting piece of information? That 2nd most stacked team since 1980? Is also ranked 10th here for teammate rating amongst conference finalists since '85 (Excluding their Best player)
http://i0.wp.com/espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png

Yet that team lost to a Mavericks team ranked WAY near the bottom of the list. In fact that Mavs team was WORSE than the 2014 Heat and beat a team ranked better than the 2015 Warriors. Know who choked away the series? Well, just answer this question
http://prnt.sc/cnwlqm

And it'll dawn on you. StayLosingFam

Damn, I feel sorry for the kid after this, Please Lost Cause Don't Hurt Em'

[Hey Yo]

most talented "on paper"

"projected" plus/minus

2015 Cavs Finals team 3rd best of all time....... :roll:

[TheWinningFam]

Bulls record before Jordan: 27-55
Rookie Jordan: 38-44
86 without Jordan: 21-43. That's a 26 win team over 82 games
86 with Jordan? 9-9. That's a 41 win team over 82 games

Your point is weak



Lebron made the Finals in 2007 by beating a Pistons team that lost it's most impactful player. You may have heard of him: 4x DPOY and Former rebounding king in Ben Wallace. In addition to not having Larry Browns defensive brilliance coaching them anymore

That's like taking Larry Bird and KC Jones off of the Celtics, or Dennis Rodman and Chuck Daly from the Pistons. So Lebron only got to the Finals because Detroit's Championship team was stripped of it's best player and a HOF Coach? Sounds cool



Stay in school, youngster. Here's my full quote:
It was a wide-help belief that the 98 Bulls were the underdogs against Utah, because their roster was so stacked. Same for the 93 Suns and to an extend, the 90 Lakers

You learn to read in kindergarten



These are not facts. By SRS ratings their respective opponents rank thusly:

1) 2016 Warriors (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2016.html)
2) 1997 Jazz (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/1997.html)
3. 96 Sonics (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1996.html)
4. 92 Blazers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/1992.html)

Or Elo rating

1. 16 Warriors
2. 97 Jazz
3. 98 Jazz
4. 13 Spurs

I don't know what "facts" mean to you, but "facts" to me are things that can be verified and not debatable. Show the evidence that the 13 Spurs and 12 Thunder are better than any team Jordan faced in the Finals. The only team that you can make that claim for is Golden State

You seem to have your "facts" mixed up. It's true that overall Lebron has FACED better teams than Jordan has in the Finals, but Lebron hasn't WON against better teams than Jordan has with the exception of the Warriors



The 09 Cavs won 66 games, had on SRS rating of 8.68, ranked 14th all time in Elo rating yet lost to Dwight Howards magic with Mo Williams averaging 18/4/4/1. The same Dwight Howard team that was nearly swept by Kobe's Lakers. The same Kobe yal clown all the time for being a choker

You're citing a season where Jordan literally jumped into the NBA again in the tail end of the season after sitting out for over a year, thinking yourself to be making some valid point. You're just making yourself look dumb. We know Jordans circumstances that season, why did Bron come up short though? He retired too? :roll:

Oh and the year after Bron lost to the Magic? He lost to the Celtics in the SEMI's. If you're going to try to make a point, don't make one that can also be used against you. Who does that



Show me Lebron winning a ring without James Jones. No wonder he calls him champ. Bron hasn't won a ring without James Jones there



That's nice but irrelevant, it comes back to that "learn to read" suggestion I made to you earlier

More on that, remember these claims of yours?
http://prnt.sc/cnwkqg

You don't get to go full retard then pretend it never happened. Go ahead and support your point that Jordan got "lucky" Shaq went to LA and how that statline is choking. Furthermore, don't run from my question fam. I made it multiple choice too, no penalty for guessing:

http://prnt.sc/cnwlqm

Don't say another word to me until you answer this



....... So Lebron didn't lose in 2009, 10, 11, 14, 15? Or are those years mysteriously not his prime? Or is this a case of you not understanding that the Finals are part of the playoffs?



Here's some interesting information.
http://image.prntscr.com/image/958f7805602945f7ad3f8396c86c941f.png

Notice the trend here? Lebron has the 2nd, 3rd and 5th most stacked teams since 1980. Yet, for some reason, his "stacked" teams almost always perform far less than the sum of their parts. There's not a single Bron team on that list that performs as good as or better than they should. Compare that to Jordans team, where Jordan has the 4th, 6th, 7th and 10th, and 2/4 (Or half, since you seem to have missed grade school) Jordans teams perform far better than expectations and in another one they're as good as they should be. Much as yal give 3-ball shit, dude's not even wrong about Jordans style of play being more effective at maximizing teamwork. That's factually supported (Oh and for Lols, see that 95 Magic team on the bottom? Let that sink in)

Another interesting piece of information? That 2nd most stacked team since 1980? Is also ranked 10th here for teammate rating amongst conference finalists since '85 (Excluding their Best player)
http://i0.wp.com/espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png

Yet that team lost to a Mavericks team ranked WAY near the bottom of the list. In fact that Mavs team was WORSE than the 2014 Heat and beat a team ranked better than the 2015 Warriors. Know who choked away the series? Well, just answer this question
http://prnt.sc/cnwlqm

And it'll dawn on you. StayLosingFam

http://reactiongif.org/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/08/GIF-Dancing-dance-didnt-read-flailing-LOL-moves-GIF.gif
''2015 cavs best 3rd best team on paper''
''Comparing pippen to james jones who hasn't played meaningful minutes.''
''Writing ad hom filled dissertations to prove a weak point.''

Don't melt too much lostcause.

[LostCause]

most talented "on paper"

"projected" plus/minus

2015 Cavs Finals team 3rd best of all time....... :roll:

I don't think you get the point, one bit. Projected plus/minus shows what the team should be capable of given the rosters overall talent. Hence the "On Paper". How they actually do is different, they can either perform better than expected or worse. Really simple

Also, you clearly can't. "Since 1980" =/= "All time", nor does it say anywhere that the Cavs were the 3rd best"Finals Team". Classic strawman arguments (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman). Stay classy. Or keep trolling. Whichever

[LostCause]

http://reactiongif.org/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/08/GIF-Dancing-dance-didnt-read-flailing-LOL-moves-GIF.gif

I've shown you actually can't read in my last post, but I guess your mom or something managed to help you along enough to point out what you do below, so you're lying anyway lol

(Hint: Not sure if you're aware but how would you know I said any of the things below if you didn't read? Hint Hint: You won't)


''2015 cavs best 3rd best team on paper''

Since 1980. Per FiveThirtyEight and Basketball-Reference. Definitely sources that are less credible than StayLosingFam, right?


''Comparing pippen to james jones who hasn't played meaningful minutes.''

I believe the point flew right over your head, but I'll repeat: Can you show me Bron winning a ring without James Jones?


''Writing ad hom filled dissertations to prove a weak point.''

What's wrong with me using ad hominem? I don't think you really know what that means, so I'm curious why you decided to point it out. As for my points being weak?

:roll:


Don't melt too much lostcause.

Multiple choice can't be that hard, can it?
http://prnt.sc/cnwlqm

[TheWinningFam]

I don't think you get the point, one bit. Projected plus/minus shows what the team should be capable of given the rosters overall talent. Hence the "On Paper". How they actually do is different, they can either perform better than expected or worse. Really simple

Also, you clearly can't. "Since 1980" =/= "All time", nor does it say anywhere that the Cavs were the 3rd best"Finals Team". Classic strawman arguments (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman). Stay classy. Or keep trolling. Whichever
That graph is still hilarious at best, 2015 cavs 3rd best team since the 80s on paper? http://twitpic.com/show/thumb/96mhds

[LostCause]

That graph is still hilarious at best, 2015 cavs 3rd best team since the 80s on paper?

There's absolutely no argument you could put up that would cause any objective fan to value your credibility over Basketball-Reference and FiveThirtyEight, who use the SPS formula to get the expected Plus/Minus values

Just seems like you're uncomfortable that objective evidence goes against your beliefs. Personal problem, fam

[TheWinningFam]

There's absolutely no argument you could put up that would cause any objective fan to value your credibility over Basketball-Reference and FiveThirtyEight, who use the SPS formula to get the expected Plus/Minus values

Just seems like you're uncomfortable that objective evidence goes against your beliefs. Personal problem, fam
Lebron had to be the his team's best Scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/rim protector to win 3 rings due to the lesser supporting casts and facing superior competition.

http://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/2015/09/09/levy_lebron_9-9-15_chart_4.png

http://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/2015/09/09/levy_lebron_9-9-15_chart_5.png
Stats provided by bball ref
When ranking the competition.
13 spurs and 16 warriors beat any of the teams jordan faced, Dont even start. :facepalm

1991 – Los Angeles Lakers – a good team, but point guard Magic Johnson was on his way out, and James Worthy was not nearly as effective as he was in the 80s. Also, the team no longer had Michael Cooper like they had in the 1980s, who was widely considered one of the best defensive players of all time. Needless to say, this Lakers team also no longer had the talents of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar like they did in the 80s – this Lakers team was a far cry from the Lakers that dominated the 80s.

1992 – Portland Trail Blazers – Outside of Clyde Drexler, this team boasted the legendary talents of…Jerome Kersey and Clifford Robinson. Moving on!

1993 – Phoenix Suns – Probably one of the better teams that MJ played, the Suns were led by then-MVP Charles Barkley, who was one of the league’s best power forwards. Outside of Barkley, this team lacked quality interior defense, a persistent theme throughout Jordan’s title run that was also a big reason why the Bulls won the 1991 and 1992 NBA finals.

1996 – Seattle Supersonics – the famous duel between Gary Payton and Michael Jordan, unfortunately, was incredibly one-sided. The Seattle Supersonics really only had two good players, Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp. Kemp was an effective forward, but his work ethic left much to be desired, and the team did not have the depth that the Bulls had, with Pippen and Dennis Rodman working as incredible defenders while Michael Jordan constantly took shot after shot, making only 46% of his shots, which is low for the “greatest player of all time.”

1997-1998 – Utah Jazz – Probably the best team Jordan faced in the finals, this Jazz team was admittedly stocked with high-level talent, which included the likes of John Stockton and Karl Malone. Still, this team paled in comparison to the 1980’s Utah Jazz, who had defensive presence Mark Eaton to stop the offensive teams in the low post.
Best defenders
Kawaii payton
Iguadala
Ibaka

We know that lebron would be the team's best scorer/Defender due to playing with freedom of movement in a weaker defensive era, otoh jordan would struggle to be the team's best scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/rim protector, we know this because he'd be facing better defensive schemes,individuals and rules.

[LostCause]

http://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/2015/09/09/levy_lebron_9-9-15_chart_4.png

http://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/2015/09/09/levy_lebron_9-9-15_chart_5.png
Stats provided by bball ref

Give these stats context and verification or keep them to yourself.


13 spurs and 16 warriors beat any of the teams jordan faced, Dont even start. :facepalm


Wrong
These are not facts. By SRS ratings their respective opponents rank thusly:

1) 2016 Warriors
2) 1997 Jazz
3. 96 Sonics
4. 92 Blazers

Or Elo rating

1. 16 Warriors
2. 97 Jazz
3. 98 Jazz
4. 13 Spurs

I don't know what "facts" mean to you, but "facts" to me are things that can be verified and not debatable. Show the evidence that the 13 Spurs and 12 Thunder are better than any team Jordan faced in the Finals. The only team that you can make that claim for is Golden State

You seem to have your "facts" mixed up. It's true that overall Lebron has FACED better teams than Jordan has in the Finals, but Lebron hasn't WON against better teams than Jordan has with the exception of the Warriors

[QUOTE][I]1991

[LostCause]

Has MJ ever lead his team in points, rebounds, blks, steals, assts, minutes, etc? Has anyone in the history of the sport??? Keep throwing rocks at the throne chump.

He doesn't have to

Has Lebron ever led a team to 3 straight championships? Averaged over 30 points and 11 assists in the Finals while shooting over 55% from the field?

I can set arbitrary "standards" too, but it's pointless. Lebron doesn't have to meet those requirements just because I randomly decide to say so just as Jordan doesn't have to meet the ones yal bronstans seem to like throwing around

Get. That. Through. Your. Skulls

[egokiller]

I will add that MJ didn't just lead his team to finals victories for 3 years in a row... he did it twice.

Bedroombully keeps thinking Lebron actually has a throne to sit but for the last 20+ years, Jordan has sat in the throne and has no intentions of ever leaving it.

[TheWinningFam]

http://image.prntscr.com/image/958f7805602945f7ad3f8396c86c941f.png
Lebron has historically and factually been part of teams that perform below their expected levels with him as their best player, while many of Jordans teams have greatly exceeded the sum of their parts
Does that chart take injuries into account? 2015 cavs weren't a top 3 team on paper. Using an obscure graph from bball ref then then trying to say mines is bad when it takes who played into account.. :confusedshrug:




maybe 2 out of the 6 rings Jordan won (Lakers and Blazers)

Jordan had the better supporting casts, so using your logic we can conclude that lebron's diminishing his team's stats would be offset by the amount of talent on said team. https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png
Jordan maybe would have won in 11 and maybe 13 He wouldn't have been his team's best scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/rim protector in 2012 or 16 which was required of lebron to win.

Otoh, lebron putting up the production needed to take the champion 15' warriors to 6 games in the 1991, 1993 finals and having a better supporting cast to offset his supposed diminishing of his team's talent in 96,98,92 and 97 wins atleast six, Take into account they won't lose to the magic in 95 and lebron doesn't go play baseball to avoid getting suspended in 94, so they likely win 7-8 rings.

[3ball]

/Threat.
Your list above shows that Jordan won with weaker supporting casts (91, 93) than Lebron ever won with (12, 13, 16).

So Jordan won with less.. thanks for highlighting that fact

[3ball]

Jordan came back trying to front-run for another title


No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career...


let alone by an average margin of 15.4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) ppg like Jordan


.......while also leading in assists most seasons and being the best defender EVER at his position.



let that sink in bud



/Threat.
Your list above shows that Jordan won with weaker supporting casts (91, 93) than Lebron ever won with (12, 13, 16).

So Jordan won with less.. thanks for highlighting that fact

[TheWinningFam]

Your list above shows that Jordan won with weaker supporting casts (91, 93) than Lebron ever won with (12, 13, 16).

So Jordan won with less.. thanks for highlighting that fact
It also reinforces the fact that lebron faces way better competition in the finals than anything jordan faced. 4 of lebron's opponent's (15 warriors 13/14/07) had a higher rating than jordan's lowly second best rated team he faced team in the finals.

Is it a coincidence that the first time he faced a lebron level opponent, it was his worst finals? and needed rodman's 19/9/5 and elite defense? (96 sonics)

[Cali Syndicate]

No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career...


let alone by an average margin of 15.4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) ppg like Jordan


.......while also leading in assists most seasons and being the best defender EVER at his position.



let that sink in bud



Your list above shows that Jordan won with weaker supporting casts (91, 93) than Lebron ever won with (12, 13, 16).

So Jordan won with less.. thanks for highlighting that fact

MJ won the scoring title every season he won a championship. I think Shaq is the only other scoring champ to ever win a title.

[LostCause]

Im glad you brought that up. So what are the "arbitrary standards"? It seem they are set by people with an agenda to prop up their favorite player. And leBron did average more that 30 points and 11 assists that last year's finals. He shot like $hit, but he also put up great numbers outside of his fg%.

Really? Post his stats then. Additionally, I specifically said while shooting over 55% as well. Omitting that is if I showed you Jordan leading the in some categories while omitting others

The arbitrary standards are set when you say "Did Jordan do THIS in the Finals", it ultimately has no relevance nor does it really mean anything, as it's way too variable. You're completely correct that they're set by people to prop up their favorite player, problem is it can literally go on endlessly because no two players will have the exact same conditions

[Cali Syndicate]

Really? Post his stats then. Additionally, I specifically said while shooting over 55% as well. Omitting that is if I showed you Jordan leading the in some categories while omitting others

The arbitrary standards are set when you say "Did Jordan do THIS in the Finals", it ultimately has no relevance nor does it really mean anything, as it's way too variable. You're completely correct that they're set by people to prop up their favorite player, problem is it can literally go on endlessly because no two players will have the exact same conditions

Lebron basically put up 36 13 and 9 in the 2015 finals....that's an amazing statline. And he pulled out 2 wins too. Credit is due there

[fourkicks44]

Lebron basically put up 36 13 and 9 in the 2015 finals....that's an amazing statline. And he pulled out 2 wins too. Credit is due there

That's a fine accomplishment, no doubt.

But two wins do not make a championship.

[LostCause]

Does that chart take injuries into account? 2015 cavs weren't a top 3 team on paper. Using an obscure graph from bball ref then then trying to say mines is bad when it takes who played into account.. :confusedshrug:


Does it take injuries into account? Fam, do you not understand what a prediction is? The 2017 Warriors are on the list. Do you think it took injuries into account for them?

No, it gave you expected plus/minus based on the players ON the team itself. The graphic itself wasn't from BBall ref, its from FiveThirtyEight, same place the chart you use below is from. The statistics are from BBall ref, and I included the method for how the values were reached in an earlier post

Lastly, I didn't say yours was "bad". I said give it context or it's pointless. Where did your numbers come from? What range do they encompass (Seasons, Playoffs, Careers, Etc), How did you reach the values?

I can post some random numbers in a table and screenshot it and say it's from BBall ref. For all I know, you did that. So tell me the context of those numbers otherwise they have no relevance



Jordan had the better supporting casts, so using your logic we can conclude that lebron's diminishing his team's stats would be offset by the amount of talent on said team.

You have it wrong. Jordan's supporting casts performed better due to Jordan himself being able to better maximize his teammates roles. These graphs are from the same site, they follow the same logic if you properly account for them

LeBrons teams should've been higher and were statistically expected to be, but they weren't because they underperformed, for reasons already stated. Jordans teams are better in the list you gave because of Jordans impact himself


Jordan maybe would have won in 11 and maybe 13 He wouldn't have been his team's best scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/rim protector in 2012 or 16 which was required of lebron to win.

Jordan would've won in 11, 12 AND 13. What's required of Lebron wouldn't be required of Jordan due to two completeley different dynamics to bring to their teams


Otoh, lebron putting up the production needed to take the champion 15' warriors to 6 games in the 1991, 1993 finals and having a better supporting cast to offset his supposed diminishing of his team's talent in 96,98,92 and 97 wins atleast six, Take into account they won't lose to the magic in 95 and lebron doesn't go play baseball to avoid getting suspended in 94, so they likely win 7-8 rings.

You cheapen your own stance with the bolded because Jordan very well could've not done the same thing and he arguably would have 7-8 rings himself

Anyway, you're just repeating yourself, so I'll do the same:

Factually incorrect

http://image.prntscr.com/image/958f7805602945f7ad3f8396c86c941f.png

Lebron has historically and factually been part of teams that perform below their expected levels with him as their best player, while many of Jordans teams have greatly exceeded the sum of their parts

Therefore we can conclude based on evidence that the Bulls would be inferior with Lebron, whereas adding Jordan to the teams that historically underperformed that included James should give them a boost. As in, 2011, 2012 and 2015

Based completley off of expected plus/minus and actual plus/minus, Lebrons teams have an average actual plus/minus of -4.2 than how they should perform. Jordans teams? On average, their actual plus/mins is +1.325

*For anyone arguing the legitimacy of the ratings, take it up with Basketball-Reference's SPS System and Real Box Plus/Minus.

Because Jordan elevates his teammates where Lebron hinders them, Jordan would've won in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2016. 4 titles where Lebron only got 3. Meanwhile, in Jordan's place, Lebron would've hindered those Bulls teams as he doesnt maximize the talents of other top talent players, and thus likely would've won maybe 2 out of the 6 rings Jordan won (Lakers and Blazers)

I don't necessarily believe that to be true but shit, if you're gonna post dumb shit I can follow your trains of thought

[3ball]

Lebron basically put up 36 13 and 9 in the 2015 finals....that's an amazing statline.


Why do people keep saying this nonsense?

The Cavs ran clearouts for him on every play like a playground game, which boosted his time of possession to a preposterous 12.0 (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes per game, or 50% higher than the regular season leader John Wall's 8.2 (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes.

In addition to holding the ball longer than anyone ever has and running more clearouts than anyone ever has, Lebron was almost NEVER (http://www.espn.com/espn/sportscenter/story/_/id/13057768) double-teamed - yet despite these utterly optimal conditions to go off, he only shot 39.8% (including 28% on jumpshots).. If he had shot 50% and not let Iggy double his scoring average from 8 ppg to 16, the Cavs win EASILY

tell me how i'm wrong

[TommyGriffin]

2015 Finals was one of the ugliest displays of basketball I have ever seen. If LeBron played a more team oriented game we could of won that. Mozgov and TT were producing, JR Smith and Dellavedova can knock down shots. LeBron felt like he was going to lose so instead of playing team-ball and giving Cleveland the best opportunity to win, he decided to just go out in a blaze of stat padding with out even trying to play winning basketball. LeBron has been known to guard his legacy first, win basketball games second. Think back to 2010 Boston where he faked an elbow injury and was even shooting free throws left handed to try to sell it...

[TheWinningFam]

Does it take injuries into account? Fam, do you not understand what a prediction is? The 2017 Warriors are on the list. Do you think it took injuries into account for them?
That was a rhetorical question, We know that these prediction stats are flawed and cant be used in an argument.





Jordan would've won in 11, 12 AND 13. What's required of Lebron wouldn't be required of Jordan due to two completeley different dynamics to bring to their teamsLebron would literally only have to focus on scoring and defense, We know this due to having a superior defender and playmaking/passer/defender second option in pippen. Otoh, Jordan would have to be the team's best scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/Rim protector,

We know this because his second option (wade) is virtually the same type of player he is, (A scorer and defender) Jordan would have to take on a bigger role to fill in the voids, while also playing tougher competition, remember, The one time jordan faced a lebron like opponent in the finals (1996 sonics) It was the worst finals of his career, and they needed pippen's 19/9/5 and elite defense to avoid a game 7 warriors like choke.

[3ball]

.
JORDAN VS. LEBRON THRU 31 YEARS OLD




PLAYOFFS PER GAME



Jordan:. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




PLAYOFFS PER 100 POSSESSIONS



Jordan:I 43.9 pts..ii 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




FINALS PER GAME



Jordan Finals:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 52.6 fg
Lebron Finals:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 45.4 fg



The stats show that Jordan's first 3 rings required 30% more scoring with equal assists..
.

[egokiller]

2015 Finals was one of the ugliest displays of basketball I have ever seen. If LeBron played a more team oriented game we could of won that. Mozgov and TT were producing, JR Smith and Dellavedova can knock down shots. LeBron felt like he was going to lose so instead of playing team-ball and giving Cleveland the best opportunity to win, he decided to just go out in a blaze of stat padding with out even trying to play winning basketball. LeBron has been known to guard his legacy first, win basketball games second. Think back to 2010 Boston where he faked an elbow injury and was even shooting free throws left handed to try to sell it...

JR actually brought them back to having a shot at taking that 3rd game but the lebron iso ball put a stop to that. This is why it's critical that JR be on the cavs this year. We are talking about a guy so devoted to his team, that he wore the same basketball shorts that he won the game in to the parade.

"We just saw a man fly"

An understatement if ever there was one.

[TheWinningFam]

Pippen's 1996 Finals:



15 ppg on 34%


This was the worst performance ever by a 2nd option... :yaohappy:
Pippen easily canceled his shooting percentage out with averaging 15/8/5
And elite defense.
Jordan padded 27 ppg on 41% shooting, without rodmans 9/19/5 and elite defense in game 6, the sonics force a game 7 warriors like choke.

[Cali Syndicate]

That's a fine accomplishment, no doubt.

But two wins do not make a championship.

2 wins with a very sub par cast and limited rotation. In my book, he deserved those fmvp votes.

[3ball]

Pippen easily canceled his shooting percentage out with averaging 15/8/5
And elite defense.
Jordan padded 27 ppg on 42% shooting, without rodmans 9/19/5 and elite defense in game 6, the sonics force a game 7 warriors like choke.
Actually, Jordan led the Bulls in Game 6 with 22/9/7, while holding Hersey Hawkins to 4 points, or 12 points below his average.

This is significant, because the Bulls WON by 12, and everyone else let their man go off in Game 6: Pippen let Schrempf get 23 points on 59%, Rodman let Kemp get 18/10 on 47%, and Harper let Payton get 21 points on 70%..

Those are all facts - so Jordan's team-leading scoring, assists, and shut-down defense won Game 6.

[Cali Syndicate]

Why do people keep saying this nonsense?

The Cavs ran clearouts for him on every play like a playground game, which boosted his time of possession to a preposterous 12.0 (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes per game, or 50% higher than the regular season leader John Wall's 8.2 (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes.

In addition to holding the ball longer than anyone ever has and running more clearouts than anyone ever has, Lebron was almost NEVER (http://www.espn.com/espn/sportscenter/story/_/id/13057768) double-teamed - yet despite these utterly optimal conditions to go off, he only shot 39.8% (including 28% on jumpshots).. If he had shot 50% and not let Iggy double his scoring average from 8 ppg to 16, the Cavs win EASILY

tell me how i'm wrong

Of course you'd want the ball in Lebron's hand...you high? If Pippen and Grant were injured for the 96 finals, you think MJ would've had a chance to win? Would you want Jordan to play within the system at that point or dominate the ball creating and facilitating the offense. And most of iggy's points came of open looks...why? because the warriors team passing had the cavs running around on rotations, and iggy was knocking down his shots when the ball found him. It wasn't like iggy was having his way offensively against lebron.

[Cali Syndicate]

Actually, Jordan led the Bulls in Game 6 with 22/9/7, while holding Hersey Hawkins to 4 points, or 12 points below his average.

This is significant, because the Bulls WON by 12, and everyone else let their man go off in Game 6: Pippen let Schrempf get 23 points on 59%, Rodman let Kemp get 18/10 on 47%, and Harper let Payton get 21 points on 70%..

Those are all facts - so Jordan's team-leading scoring, assists, and shut-down defense won Game 6.

Luc was mainly guarding Kemp, and Rodman on Perkins. Only when Kukoc was in at PF did Rodman matchup against Kemp.

[3ball]

Of course you'd want the ball in Lebron's hand...you high? If Pippen and Grant were injured for the 96 finals, you think MJ would've had a chance to win?


My point is that Lebron's stat line in the 2015 Finals shouldn't be respected because it was achieved via a playground, clearout style that resulted in an utterly ridiculous time of possession.. AND he wasn't double-teamed... it's like the game was an experiment to see how many stats he could accumulate

yet despite these optimal conditions to go off (clearouts on every play with no double-teaming), he only shot 39.8%.

Again, if he shot 50% and didn't allow Iggy to double his scoring average from 8 to 16 ppg, the Cavs win EASILY.. btw, letting your defensive assignment double their scoring average IS INDEED letting them go off... also, the reason Lebron only shot 39% is because he only shot 28% on jumpshots (65% at the rim).



Luc was mainly guarding Kemp, and Rodman on Perkins. Only when Kukoc was in at PF did Rodman matchup against Kemp.
Your lies don't even make any sense - re-read what you just wrote... :facepalm

Rodman guarded Kemp for the entire series, and Kemp WENT OFF (23/10 and 63% ts) - he was the Sonics' best player in that series, EASILY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpLWcFRlM9A

[Cali Syndicate]

My point is that his stat line shouldn't be respected because it was achieved via a playground, clearout style that resulted in an utterly ridiculous time of possession.. AND he wasn't double-teamed... it's like the game was an experiment to see how many stats he could accumulate

yet despite these optimal conditions to go off (clearouts on every play with no double-teaming), he only shot 39.8%.

Again, if he shot 50% and didn't allow Iggy to double his scoring average from 8 to 16 ppg, the Cavs win EASILY.. btw, letting your defensive assignment double their scoring average IS INDEED letting them go off... also, the reason Lebron only shot 39% is because he only shot 28% on jumpshots (65% at the rim).
.

As sad as it was, that actually was the offense. Let Lebron work and if the Warriors sent help, Lebron would hit the open shooter. Similar to SVG's college ball system with Dwight.

And obviously they hardly ever sent help off the line cause a slightly open Lebron jumper is still better than an open 3. But Lebron definitely saw help defense the times he found his way into the paint or on the block.

And yes, If lebron played twice as well than he did, cavs wouldv'e had a better chance at winning. Obvious point is obvious.

[Cali Syndicate]

Your lies don't even make any sense - re-read what you just wrote... :facepalm

Rodman guarded Kemp for the entire series, and Kemp WENT OFF (23/10 and 63% ts) - he was the Sonics' best player in that series, EASILY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpLWcFRlM9A

So you post a highlight where Rodman was guarding Kemp in the very scenario I stated that did. Did you or did you not see Kukoc on the floor in that video? Answer this question and go look back at when i said Rodman was guarding Kemp.

[LostCause]

That was a rhetorical question, We know that these prediction stats are flawed and cant be used in an argument.

Wrong. Hate to break it to you but you don't get to dictate what can or can't be used in an argument. The "predictive" stats in question are based on real formulae and factual statistics. Therefore the expectations produced by then are reasonable and have factual basis. There is no good reason to dismiss them.

In fact, these stats are far more valid and credible than your own "predictions" of who would do what and how as your argument is completely hypothetical and frankly comes down to nothing but your biased opinion

Now if you want to use the stats you provided, give the context along with them, otherwise they serve no purpose. The ones I provided were given context and still serve their purpose, despite you clearly wishing they didn't





Lebron would literally only have to focus on scoring and defense, We know this due to having a superior defender and playmaking/passer/defender second option in pippen. Otoh, Jordan would have to be the team's best scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/Rim protector,

We know this because his second option (wade) is virtually the same type of player he is, (A scorer and defender) Jordan would have to take on a bigger role to fill in the voids, while also playing tougher competition, remember, The one time jordan faced a lebron like opponent in the finals (1996 sonics) It was the worst finals of his career, and they needed pippen's 19/9/5 and elite defense to avoid a game 7 warriors like choke.

3ball already addressed the hilarity of some of this, but because you seem to still be repeating yourself I'll do the same. Hopefully, it drives in this time:

Factually incorrect

http://image.prntscr.com/image/958f7805602945f7ad3f8396c86c941f.png

Lebron has historically and factually been part of teams that perform below their expected levels with him as their best player, while many of Jordans teams have greatly exceeded the sum of their parts

Therefore we can conclude based on evidence that the Bulls would be inferior with Lebron, whereas adding Jordan to the teams that historically underperformed that included James should give them a boost. As in, 2011, 2012 and 2015

Based completley off of expected plus/minus and actual plus/minus, Lebrons teams have an average actual plus/minus of -4.2 than how they should perform. Jordans teams? On average, their actual plus/mins is +1.325

*For anyone arguing the legitimacy of the ratings, take it up with Basketball-Reference's SPS System and Real Box Plus/Minus.

Because Jordan elevates his teammates where Lebron hinders them, Jordan would've won in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2016. 4 titles where Lebron only got 3. Meanwhile, in Jordan's place, Lebron would've hindered those Bulls teams as he doesnt maximize the talents of other top talent players, and thus likely would've won maybe 2 out of the 6 rings Jordan won (Lakers and Blazers)

I don't necessarily believe that to be true but shit, if you're gonna post dumb shit I can follow your trains of thought

[AirBonner]

Wrong. Hate to break it to you but you don't get to dictate what can or can't be used in an argument. The "predictive" stats in question are based on real formulae and factual statistics. Therefore the expectations produced by then are reasonable and have factual basis. There is no good reason to dismiss them.

In fact, these stats are far more valid and credible than your own "predictions" of who would do what and how as your argument is completely hypothetical and frankly comes down to nothing but your biased opinion

Now if you want to use the stats you provided, give the context along with them, otherwise they serve no purpose. The ones I provided were given context and still serve their purpose, despite you clearly wishing they didn't






3ball already addressed the hilarity of some of this, but because you seem to still be repeating yourself I'll do the same. Hopefully, it drives in this time:

Factually incorrect

http://image.prntscr.com/image/958f7805602945f7ad3f8396c86c941f.png

Lebron has historically and factually been part of teams that perform below their expected levels with him as their best player, while many of Jordans teams have greatly exceeded the sum of their parts

Therefore we can conclude based on evidence that the Bulls would be inferior with Lebron, whereas adding Jordan to the teams that historically underperformed that included James should give them a boost. As in, 2011, 2012 and 2015

Based completley off of expected plus/minus and actual plus/minus, Lebrons teams have an average actual plus/minus of -4.2 than how they should perform. Jordans teams? On average, their actual plus/mins is +1.325

*For anyone arguing the legitimacy of the ratings, take it up with Basketball-Reference's SPS System and Real Box Plus/Minus.

Because Jordan elevates his teammates where Lebron hinders them, Jordan would've won in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2016. 4 titles where Lebron only got 3. Meanwhile, in Jordan's place, Lebron would've hindered those Bulls teams as he doesnt maximize the talents of other top talent players, and thus likely would've won maybe 2 out of the 6 rings Jordan won (Lakers and Blazers)

I don't necessarily believe that to be true but shit, if you're gonna post dumb shit I can follow your trains of thought
JR smith and Kyrie have been BETTER playing with Lebron.