Lebron has been to the finals more times than Jordan

[Nash]

Discuss.

[SouBeachTalents]

Much weaker conference, 3 less titles/FMVP's

[Nash]

Much weaker conference, 3 less titles/FMVP's
Not like the East was strong as hell back in Jordan's days.
Lebron lead his team more times to the finals as the man than Jordan.

Keep discussing.

[CAstill]

Not like the East was strong as hell back in Jordan's days.
Lebron lead his team more times to the finals as the man than Jordan.

Keep discussing.

Look at these cop outs lol. The east was stronger then than it is today that's all that matters. Jordan GOAT, LeBrons not. End thread.

[BigKAT]

80's celtics and Pistons are the reason Jordan 'Got to the finals only six times'

In an odd way, 2000's celtics were also deterimental to Lebron's finals count.


But yeah, no doubt that Lebron will finish his career with even more finals appearences.

But then again, I don't think it puts him over Jordan.

[Timrock]

he's lost more times too.

discuss.

[Dragonyeuw]

Not like the East was strong as hell back in Jordan's days.
Lebron lead his team more times to the finals as the man than Jordan.

Keep discussing.

And lost more times in the finals as the man.

Oh, and if Jordan couldn't get past the Celtics and Pistons doing this:

44/6/6 on 51%
36/7/6 on 42%
36/7/5 on 53%
35/7/8 on 51%
37/7/7 on 51%


Then Lebron ain't getting past those teams doing that:

28/8/7 on 42%
25/7/8 on 42%
26/9/8 on 45%


which he could get away with in 2007, when the Pistons and Heat were done as contenders and before the Big 3 Celtics emerged.

Would you like to discuss reasons for why clearly inferior production netted better team results?

[tpols]

when the best players you see on the way to the Finals are kyle lowry and paul millsap.. you better bet your ass you're makin the Finals.

[Bankaii]

when the best players you see on the way to the Finals are kyle lowry and paul millsap.. you better bet your ass you're makin the Finals.
So if the best player you face in a Finals is Chauncey Billups, you're guaranteed to win right?:roll:
Kobetards only apply context when their idol is involved.

[tpols]

So if the best player you face in a Finals is Chauncey Billups, you're guaranteed to win right?:roll:
Kobetards only apply context when their idol is involved.

Chauncey Billups was never the best player on that pistons team.. hell, he wasnt even the second best. don't expose yourself further

[Nilocon165]

Chauncey Billups was never the best player on that pistons team.. hell, he wasnt even the second best. don't expose yourself further
http://www.emptythebench.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/chance.jpg

[tpols]

http://www.emptythebench.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/chance.jpg

perfect example of a media award not capturing true impact of who was best all playoffs long ...

[SouBeachTalents]

perfect example of a media award not capturing true impact of who was best all playoffs long ...

Ben Wallace imo

[Nilocon165]

perfect example of a media award not capturing true impact of who was best all playoffs long ...
you still said Billups might not have even been the second best player on the team

[tpols]

you still said Billups might not have even been the second best player on the team

because rasheed wallace was slightly better imo.. even Rip Hamilton was the team's leading scorer by a lot ... Chauncey was battling for 3rd or 4th best true impact on that team.. and he was still really good, so that speaks to how good the whole squad was. That team would run any current East contender from the past 5+ years sans cleveland and miami big three's off the court .. who they would both still give a good battle to

[Sarcastic]

Not like the East was strong as hell back in Jordan's days.
Lebron lead his team more times to the finals as the man than Jordan.

Keep discussing.


What? 90s East would obliterate 2000s East. Knicks with Ewing, Magic with Shaq and Penny, Cavs with Price and Daugherty, Pacers with Reggie, Heat with Hardaway and Zo. All those teams are better than anything Lebron went through in the EC, including the Rose led Bulls, and Salt Factory Hawks.

[FKAri]

Chauncey Billups was never the best player on that pistons team.. hell, he wasnt even the second best. don't expose yourself further
So who was their best player? The one that Kobe with the help of Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Shaq and co, couldn't beat? The undrafted kid out of a community college or the nigguh that liked wearing masks and shared the same physique as Keira Knightley? Or perhaps it was the GOAT technical fouler? :lol
Don't get mad I'm only kidding

[Dragonyeuw]

http://www.emptythebench.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/chance.jpg


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/7d/b4/54/7db454e7457bcf04263d9a34e31a52e3.jpg

Tony Parker wasn't the best Spur in 2007.

[Bankaii]

Chauncey Billups was never the best player on that pistons team.. hell, he wasnt even the second best. don't expose yourself further
He wasn't a top 2 player for the Pistons in the Finals?
Are you really this dumb?

[egokiller]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

He's correct, but let's back up to this times to the finals discussion.

Since Kobe has been to the finals the same number of times as Lebron let's compare:

Kobe 5/7
Lebron 3/7

That tells us all we need to know. No need to indulge in specifics, just understand that 5 is greater than 3. If you want specifics, one man as the 1A/1B option led his team to the chip more times than the other man led his team to the chip, AND HE DID IT WHILE playing for the more difficult west.

Game over.
Thanks for playing.

[Hey Yo]

He's correct, but let's back up to this times to the finals discussion.

Since Kobe has been to the finals the same number of times as Lebron let's compare:

Kobe 5/7
Lebron 3/7

That tells us all we need to know. No need to indulge in specifics, just understand that 5 is greater than 3. If you want specifics, one man as the 1A/1B option led his team to the chip more times than the other man led his team to the chip, AND HE DID IT WHILE playing for the more difficult west.

Game over.
Thanks for playing.
Kobe 2-1 in the Finals as the captain/1st option

LeBron 3-3 in the Finals as the captain/1st option

Those are the specifics AND the facts!!

[SouBeachTalents]

He's correct, but let's back up to this times to the finals discussion.

Since Kobe has been to the finals the same number of times as Lebron let's compare:

Kobe 5/7
Lebron 3/7

That tells us all we need to know. No need to indulge in specifics, just understand that 5 is greater than 3. If you want specifics, one man as the 1A/1B option led his team to the chip more times than the other man led his team to the chip, AND HE DID IT WHILE playing for the more difficult west.

Game over.
Thanks for playing.

Post those "1A/1B" Finals numbers

[Maverick Carter]

because rasheed wallace was slightly better imo.. even Rip Hamilton was the team's leading scorer by a lot ... Chauncey was battling for 3rd or 4th best true impact on that team.. and he was still really good, so that speaks to how good the whole squad was. That team would run any current East contender from the past 5+ years sans cleveland and miami big three's off the court .. who they would both still give a good battle to

That's idiotic. Billups tore the Lakers to shreds and was waltzing through their zones with contemptuous ease. He's the main reason they won that series.

[3ball]

Jordan would've made the Finals more than Lebron if it only required 27.7 PER with 36.4 points and 8.8 assists per 100 possessions in the playoffs (Lebron's playoff averages thru 31 years old).

Unfortunately for Jordan, it took 29.6 PER with 43.9 points and 8.4 assists per 100 possessions to match Lebron's career playoff achievements (3 rings, 3 fmvp) before retiring to play baseball at 31 years old.
.

[Hey Yo]

Lebron would have avg. more PPG if he had All NBA defense teammates like Rodman and Pippen to do the dirty work in the trenches while he focused 100% on offense like MJ was able to.

must be nice

[NBAGOAT]

because rasheed wallace was slightly better imo.. even Rip Hamilton was the team's leading scorer by a lot ... Chauncey was battling for 3rd or 4th best true impact on that team.. and he was still really good, so that speaks to how good the whole squad was. That team would run any current East contender from the past 5+ years sans cleveland and miami big three's off the court .. who they would both still give a good battle to

chauncey even finished top 5 in mvp voting a couple years later. He's definitely at least 2nd best and the main guy with a case over him is Ben Wallace. Rip did score more by a lot in the playoffs but he was less efficient and Chauncey did mostly everything else better(playmaking defense etc). Also they scored almost the same in the RS and the Finals ppg wise/

[LostCause]

Lebron would have avg. more PPG if he had All NBA defense teammates like Rodman and Pippen to do the dirty work in the trenches while he focused 100% on offense like MJ was able to.

must be nice

Claiming MJ focused 100% on offense is ridiculous fam

You don't even try anymore. Just complete trolling these days?

[egokiller]

Kobe 2-1 in the Finals as the captain/1st option

LeBron 3-3 in the Finals as the captain/1st option

Those are the specifics AND the facts!!

You left out the most important specific. The conference they played in.

Kobe 2-1 in Finals while having to take path in West to get there >>>> Lebron 3-3 in the Finals while taking path in historically weak East to get there

Lebron knows he wouldn't have even made the finals in the west that's why he refused to play in that conference.

Game over.


Claiming MJ focused 100% on offense is ridiculous fam

You don't even try anymore. Just complete trolling these days?

What choice does he have? Every time he tries to pat himself on the back after thinking he made a good rebuttal in a Jordan vs Lebron or Kobe vs Lebron debate, I come right over the top like I just did and perform a show stopper.

[Funktion]

Also dry snitched his way to a ring in the Finals more times than Jordan too.

[TheWinningFam]

You left out the most important specific. The conference they played in.

Kobe 2-1 in Finals while having to take path in West to get there >>>> Lebron 3-3 in the Finals while taking path in historically weak East to get there

Lebron knows he wouldn't have even made the finals in the west that's why he refused to play in that conference.
Kobe played historically weak ecf teams, therefore his titles count as 1/2
You would use this argument if lebron went to the west and won. :facepalm




What choice does he have? Every time he tries to pat himself on the back after thinking he made a good rebuttal in a Jordan vs Lebron or Kobe vs Lebron debate, I come right over the top like I just did and perform a show stopper.
There's no kobe vs lebron debate, only a select few kobetards on this forum and lebron haters think kobe is even close to as good as lebron.
https://media.giphy.com/media/b3toQ5PPlwt1u/giphy.gif

[Cold soul]

Well so has Kobe with 7 trips to Finals but who in the hell cares. Jordan the superior player in almost all aspects over Lebron and Kobe.

[TheWinningFam]

Well so has Kobe with 7 trips to Finals but who in the hell cares. Jordan the superior player in Scoring over Lebron and Kobe.

Fixed.

I find it hilarious when we try to argue lebron isn't more valuable when Lebron had to be his team's best scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/rim defender to win 3 titles. [IMG]

[AirBonner]

Fixed.

I find it hilarious when we try to argue lebron isn't more valuable when Lebron had to be his team's best scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/rim defender to win 3 titles. [IMG]
This. Also Jordan and kobe never had to and were not capable of playing spot up minutes at center :no:

[LostCause]

LeBron hasn't been his teams best rebounder and rim protector for 3 titles

Bosh was the superior rebounder in 2013 (Higher TRB% than Lebron, just played almost 10 less minutes). Haslem and Anderson both had a better impact on shots at the rim (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/oppshooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&TeamID=1610612748&PORound=4&sort=Less%20Than%205%20ft.%20FG%20PCT&dir=-1)

In 2012, Bosh was a superior rebounder there as well, again, only playing 8 less minutes which means Bron got slightly more boards by virtue of more minutes played, but when Bosh was on the floor he was the teams best rebounder

Rim Protection in 12? Bosh, Wade and Battier were better rim protectors (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/oppshooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&TeamID=1610612748&PORound=4&sort=5-9%20ft.%20FG%20PCT&dir=-1)

You know, it seems to me like these Bronstans don't actually rely on facts as they claim, as it almost always exposes their bullshit claims

[NBAGOAT]

LeBron hasn't been his teams best rebounder and rim protector for 3 titles

Bosh was the superior rebounder in 2013 (Higher TRB% than Lebron, just played almost 10 less minutes). Haslem and Anderson both had a better impact on shots at the rim (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/oppshooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&TeamID=1610612748&PORound=4&sort=Less%20Than%205%20ft.%20FG%20PCT&dir=-1)

In 2012, Bosh was a superior rebounder there as well, again, only playing 8 less minutes which means Bron got slightly more boards by virtue of more minutes played, but when Bosh was on the floor he was the teams best rebounder

Rim Protection in 12? Bosh, Wade and Battier were better rim protectors (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/oppshooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&TeamID=1610612748&PORound=4&sort=5-9%20ft.%20FG%20PCT&dir=-1)

You know, it seems to me like these Bronstans don't actually rely on facts as they claim, as it almost always exposes their bullshit claims

not saying I think Bron was the Heat best rim protector(think it was Bosh) but maybe you should check the 12 numbers again. Bosh was 57.4%, Battier 60.2%, Wade was 58.8%, and Lebron was 56.4%. He was the lowest... Your link highlighted 5-9 ft so that might be why you misread. 2013 is correct but a simple counterargument is they defended 13 total shots at the rim per game while Bron defended 24. Volume matters and they were bench guys who each played like 15mpg in the playoffs. I'm a huge fan of synergy stats but these don't tell too much since there's usually multiple guys near the rim contesting finishes.

[LostCause]

not saying I think Bron was the Heat best rim protector(think it was Bosh) but maybe you should check the 12 numbers again. Bosh was 57.4%, Battier 60.2%, Wade was 58.8%, and Lebron was 56.4%. He was the lowest... Your link highlighted 5-9 ft so that might be why you misread. 2013 is correct but a simple counterargument is they defended 13 total shots at the rim per game while Bron defended 24. Volume matters and they were bench guys who each played like 15mpg in the playoffs. I'm a huge fan of synergy stats but these don't tell too much since there's usually multiple guys near the rim contesting finishes.
You're right, I ****ed that up and clicked 5-9 instead :roll:

I'll concede that Bron was superior in 12, and I agree with you about the stats not telling much but I expect claims like the ones that were made to be backed up by objective and verifiable measures

[NBAGOAT]

You're right, I ****ed that up and clicked 5-9 instead :roll:

I'll concede that Bron was superior in 12, and I agree with you about the stats not telling much but I expect claims like the ones that were made to be backed up by objective and verifiable measures

well you're arguing with dubeta's 5th alt, that's just not happening.

[Hey Yo]

You left out the most important specific. The conference they played in.

Kobe 2-1 in Finals while having to take path in West to get there >>>> Lebron 3-3 in the Finals while taking path in historically weak East to get there.
If it was so hard to get through the West, then why did he choke so bad against the historically weak East in the 2008 and 2010 Finals?


Lebron knows he wouldn't have even made the finals in the west that's why he refused to play in that conference.
He refused to play in the West? Who's offer did he turn down? What year was that?

Kobe's the only one who manipulated the draft and cried about not wanting to play in the EAST and try to build a contender. He wanted to play for a contender/easy title right away.

[egokiller]

If it was so hard to get through the West, then why did he choke so bad against the historically weak East in the 2008 and 2010 Finals?


He refused to play in the West? Who's offer did he turn down? What year was that?

Kobe's the only one who manipulated the draft and cried about not wanting to play in the EAST and try to build a contender. He wanted to play for a contender/easy title right away.

Kobe's path to getting to the finals was more difficult and it took a toll. Guy wins 5 out of 7 finals in the more difficult path in the west and you try to spin it like 3/7 in the historically weak east holds a candle to it.

No chance.

There is zero argument for Lebron relative to Kobe because Lebron has played in a weaker conference his whole career and despite having the easier route to the finals, still got his ass kicked by the western team that had the more difficult route.

Not one, not two, not three, but FOUR times this happened. Even Jason Terry had his way with him.

Kobe wanted to play on his favorite team. Lebron chose to go to the heat instead of any other team. Then he chose to go to the cavs instead of any other team. Why? Because he takes the easy way to the finals.

Offers? LOL next you will be telling us that no team in the west would ever want lebron, hence they would not make any offers..... :roll:

The argument was over before it even started. Doesn't matter how you try to spin it,

3/7 in weak east is <<<< 5/7 in difficult west

or

3-3 in weak east is <<< 2-1 in difficult west

Your pick.

[TheWinningFam]

Kobe's path to getting to the finals was more difficult and it took a toll. Guy wins 5 out of 7 finals in the more difficult path in the west and you try to spin it like 3/7 in the historically weak east holds a candle to it.

No chance.

There is zero argument for Lebron relative to Kobe because Lebron has played in a weaker conference his whole career and despite having the easier route to the finals, still got his ass kicked by the western team that had the more difficult route.

Not one, not two, not three, but FOUR times this happened. Even Jason Terry had his way with him.

Kobe wanted to play on his favorite team. Lebron chose to go to the heat instead of any other team. Then he chose to go to the cavs instead of any other team. Why? Because he takes the easy way to the finals.

Offers? LOL next you will be telling us that no team in the west would ever want lebron, hence they would not make any offers..... :roll:

The argument was over before it even started. Doesn't matter how you try to spin it,

3/7 in weak east is <<<< 5/7 in difficult west

or

3-3 in weak east is <<< 2-1 in difficult west

Your pick.
4 mvps and 3fmvps in 13 seasons> 1 mvp 2* fmvps in 20.

[TommyGriffin]

Claiming MJ focused 100% on offense is ridiculous fam

You don't even try anymore. Just complete trolling these days?
No. That poster isn't even trolling. He is just that retarded.

[egokiller]

4 mvps and 3fmvps in 13 seasons> 1 mvp 2* fmvps in 20.

Incorrect. Kobe got robbed of several regular season mvps. You got guys like nash that won mvps over Shaq. Reg season mvps were debunked awhile ago.

So there goes the # of mvps being a justifiable argument.

As for fmvps, 3 is > 2, but that's only because Kobe had to play with the most dominant player in the history of the game. Lebron isn't the alpha Kobe is, and instead of forming his own legacy and leaving shaq, if he was in Kobe's shoes he would have stayed with Shaq just to win rings instead of building his own legacy. His career choices prove this would be the case. Now come back with a valid argument next time to support why Lebron is more alpha that Kobe.

It can't be done. Many have tried, and all have failed.


Sorry alt, but you're gonna have to try harder than that. :sleeping

Sorry, but the argument that Kobe was more alpha than Bron was over long before I clicked on this thread. Anyone who understands fundamental basketball can just look at these 2 players and draw the conclusion that Kobe was the alpha. The moment he left shaq and won rings solidified this.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe's path to getting to the finals was more difficult and it took a toll. Guy wins 5 out of 7 finals in the more difficult path in the west and you try to spin it like 3/7 in the historically weak east holds a candle to it.
2 out of 3.......he was only Captain/1st option for 3 Finals. Was very mediocre in 2008 and 2010.



There is zero argument for Lebron relative to Kobe because Lebron has played in a weaker conference his whole career and despite having the easier route to the finals, still got his ass kicked by the western team that had the more difficult route.
Led his team in Points, rebounds and assists in his last 5 straight post seasons which means all 3 of his titles....even the B2B ones!!!


Not one, not two, not three, but FOUR times this happened. Even Jason Terry had his way with him.
Terry outplayed Kobe in 2011 playoffs when the LakErs got swept.


Kobe wanted to play on his favorite team. Lebron chose to go to the heat instead of any other team. Then he chose to go to the cavs instead of any other team. Why? Because he takes the easy way to the finals.
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: "Let me play for my favorite contender right away.....I don't want to try to build a contender


Offers? LOL next you will be telling us that no team in the west would ever want lebron, hence they would not make any offers..... :roll:
You said he wouldn't play in the West. What the offers he turned down?


The argument was over before it even started. Doesn't matter how you try to spin it,

3/7 in weak east is <<<< 5/7 in difficult west

or

3-3 in weak east is <<< 2-1 in difficult west

3-3 with 3 FMVP as the man leading his team all the main categories >>>> 2-1 against the Historic Weak East

[TheWinningFam]

Incorrect. Kobe got robbed of several regular season mvps. You got guys like nash that won mvps over Shaq. Reg season mvps were debunked awhile ago.

So there goes the # of mvps being a justifiable argument.
You can fluke win 1-2 mvps, but the all time greats all have 3-4+ mvps.



As for fmvps, 3 is > 2, but that's only because Kobe had to play with the most dominant player in the history of the game. Lebron isn't the alpha Kobe is, and instead of forming his own legacy and leaving shaq, if he was in Kobe's shoes he would have stayed with Shaq just to win rings instead of building his own legacy. His career choices prove this would be the case. Now come back with a valid argument next time to support why Lebron is more alpha that Kobe. So when arguing 5>3 we completely ignore context, but when its 3>2 We go by arbitrary opinions. Had kobe not choked a 3-1 lead in the first round or choked a 20 point lead in the finals he may have gotten more than 2 fmvps.
Yeah, Scoring 15 ppg on 36% shooting is alpha.

Lebron won at a higher ratio with wade 50% than Kobe 3/8 .38% had prime shaq for 8 years and only won 3 rings, while facing weaker comp, The sixers was a 1 man show, the la-kings series was rigged, and kobe scored 15 ppg on 30% shooting for another. that's embarrassing, any top GOAT wins atleast 5 Regardless of comp.


The lakers were so stacked kobe didn't even start untill his 3rd-4th year in the league :roll: :roll: and still only won 3 rings with prime shaq.

[egokiller]

This is too easy.

Lebron has played in a weaker conference his whole career and despite having the easier route to the finals, still got his ass kicked by the western team that had the more difficult route 4 out of 7 times. He's been successful 3 time in the finals as the man and Kobe has been successful in the finals 2 times as the man, but being the closer for those other 3 finals is >>>> than 1 finals win as the man. If you watched the games you would know how critical Kobe was on those 3 finals as the 2nd option due to the Hack a Shaq. Not to mention the wins were after going through the more difficult western conference with no gas left in the tank by the time he got to the finals. None left in the tank resulted in 2 losses for Kobe.

An almost FULL tank due to weak east path to finals resulted in FOUR losses for Lebron.

There is no argument who is more alpha when you look at the big picture.

Kobe left A DYNASTY and STILL won rings as the man. That is alpha as fvck and more alpha than any "decision" lebron has ever made in his entire career. Any top 10 all time player can join the top 2 and top 4 players in PER in the weak east and win some rings. Any top 10 player can join a team in the east that won the first draft pick 3 out of 4 years and beat a worn down injured GSW team with no gas left in the tank. Not everyone can leave a DYNASTY, form their own legacy, and shit on the doubters by winning 2 MORE rings. Such a career is reserved for alpha's like Kobe.

Now thanks for playing my boys, but the argument was actually over before it started.

[TommyGriffin]

This is too easy.

Lebron has played in a weaker conference his whole career and despite having the easier route to the finals, still got his ass kicked by the western team that had the more difficult route 4 out of 7 times. He's been successful 3 time in the finals as the man and Kobe has been successful in the finals 2 times as the man, but being the closer for those other 3 finals is >>>> than 1 finals win as the man. If you watched the games you would know how critical Kobe was on those 3 finals as the 2nd option due to the Hack a Shaq. Not to mention the wins were after going through the more difficult western conference with no gas left in the tank by the time he got to the finals. None left in the tank resulted in 2 losses for Kobe.

An almost FULL tank due to weak east path to finals resulted in FOUR losses for Lebron.

There is no argument who is more alpha when you look at the big picture.

Kobe left A DYNASTY and STILL won rings as the man. That is alpha as fvck and more alpha than any "decision" lebron has ever made in his entire career. Any top 10 all time player can join the top 2 and top 4 players in PER in the weak east and win some rings. Any top 10 player can join a team in the east that won the first draft pick 3 out of 4 years and beat a worn down injured GSW team with no gas left in the tank. Not everyone can leave a DYNASTY, form their own legacy, and shit on the doubters by winning 2 MORE rings. Such a career is reserved for alpha's like Kobe.

Now thanks for playing my boys, but the argument was actually over before it started.
This. Building a Dynasty of 5 rings for one organization is on a whole other level of difficulty when compared to team-hopping back and forth with the best players in the league while abusing CBA loopholes.

[guy]

Not like the East was strong as hell back in Jordan's days.
Lebron lead his team more times to the finals as the man than Jordan.

Keep discussing.

Right. And it's not like winning the finals or not matters. As long as you make it.

[LostCause]

well you're arguing with dubeta's 5th alt, that's just not happening.

I don't even know who dubeta is tbh lol

[TheWinningFam]

This is too easy.

Lebron has played in a weaker conference his whole career and despite having the easier route to the finals, still got his ass kicked by the western team that had the more difficult route 4 out of 7 times. He's been successful 3 time in the finals as the man and Kobe has been successful in the finals 2 times as the man, but being the closer for those other 3 finals is >>>> than 1 finals win as the man. If you watched the games you would know how critical Kobe was on those 3 finals as the 2nd option due to the Hack a Shaq. Not to mention the wins were after going through the more difficult western conference with no gas left in the tank by the time he got to the finals. None left in the tank resulted in 2 losses for Kobe.

An almost FULL tank due to weak east path to finals resulted in FOUR losses for Lebron.

There is no argument who is more alpha when you look at the big picture.

Kobe left A DYNASTY and STILL won rings as the man. That is alpha as fvck and more alpha than any "decision" lebron has ever made in his entire career. Any top 10 all time player can join the top 2 and top 4 players in PER in the weak east and win some rings. Any top 10 player can join a team in the east that won the first draft pick 3 out of 4 years and beat a worn down injured GSW team with no gas left in the tank. Not everyone can leave a DYNASTY, form their own legacy, and shit on the doubters by winning 2 MORE rings. Such a career is reserved for alpha's like Kobe.

Now thanks for playing my boys, but the argument was actually over before it started.
How is it more alpha to
blow a 20 point lead in the finals.
Shoot 6-24 in game 7.

[guy]

Lebron would have avg. more PPG if he had All NBA defense teammates like Rodman and Pippen to do the dirty work in the trenches while he focused 100% on offense like MJ was able to.

must be nice

Cause Jordan never did anything but score, which is also such an easy and inconsequential part of the game.:oldlol:

[egokiller]

Cause Jordan never did anything but score, which is also such an easy and inconsequential part of the game.:oldlol:

Exactly. Putting points on the board means nothing when the object of the game is to put points on the board.

[guy]

Lebron had 3 more ppg, 1 more rpg, and 5 more apg then the 2nd leading scorer, rebounder, and assister in the 2016 finals.

Jordan had 2 less rpg and 1.4 less apg then the top rebounder and assister but 20 more ppg then the 2nd leading scorer in the 1993 finals.

Does that really sound like Lebron had to do more and took a larger load and responsibility then Jordan? It's funny how people blindly fall for this narrative.

[egokiller]

Lebron had 3 more ppg, 1 more rpg, and 5 more apg then the 2nd leading scorer, rebounder, and assister in the 2016 finals.

Jordan had 2 less rpg and 1.4 less apg then the top rebounder and assister but 20 more ppg then the 2nd leading scorer in the 1993 finals.

Does that really sound like Lebron had to do more and took a larger load and responsibility then Jordan? It's funny how people blindly fall for this narrative.

They really don't have a choice though, because those are the facts they are left with. How do you form an argument in favor of a guy being more alpha than MJ when the facts point out (not suggest, but actually PROVE) that he was more beta?

I love watching a topic creator trying to make a troll thread, and then watching his alts get destroyed by a mix of trolling and factual arguments. That seems to be the common theme on this board.

[NBAGOAT]

I don't even know who dubeta is tbh lol

he's dray n klay's old account(I think). Came up with repetitive threads like these. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386795 You can just tell who's who by their posting style.

[TheWinningFam]

Lebron had 3 more ppg, 1 more rpg, and 5 more apg then the 2nd leading scorer, rebounder, and assister in the 2016 finals.

Jordan had 2 less rpg and 1.4 less apg then the top rebounder and assister but 20 more ppg then the 2nd leading scorer in the 1993 finals.

Does that really sound like Lebron had to do more and took a larger load and responsibility then Jordan? It's funny how people blindly fall for this narrative.
Serious question.

Is it tougher to be your team's best scorer for 3 finals in a faster pace?

Or Your team's best Scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/Rim protector for 3 in a slower pace?

[egokiller]

Serious question.

Is it tougher to be your team's best scorer for 3 finals in a faster pace league that wasn't soft as fvck.

Or Your team's best Scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/Rim protector for 3 in a slower pace soft ass league?

Stop omitting the full details to support your biased agenda. It's not going to work. I fixed your question for you.

[3ball]

Serious question.

Is it tougher to be your team's best scorer for 3 finals in a faster pace?

Or Your team's best Scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/Rim protector for 3 in a slower pace?



Pace was the same for MJ and Lebron:



PACE IN PLAYOFFS: (each year is link to bballref data)



1991 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1991.html#all_misc_stats):. 93.3
1992 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1992.html#all_misc_stats):. 91.7
1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1993.html#all_misc_stats):. 90.8
1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.1
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.2
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats):. 85.9

2007 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2007.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.5
2011 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2011.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.8
2012 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2012.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.0
2013 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2013.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.5
2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2014.html#all_misc_stats):. 90.6
2015 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats):. 94.4
2016 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2016.html#all_misc_stats):. 93.0




PACE IN FINALS:



1991 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-finals-lakers-vs-bulls.html):. 85.8
1992 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-finals-trail-blazers-vs-bulls.html):. 92.3
1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-finals-bulls-vs-suns.html):. 89.7
1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html):. 83.5
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-finals-jazz-vs-bulls.html):. 84.0
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-finals-bulls-vs-jazz.html):. 82.0

2007 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2007-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-spurs.html):. 82.8
2011 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-finals-mavericks-vs-heat.html):. 85.5
2012 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2012-nba-finals-heat-vs-thunder.html):. 88.6
2013 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2013-nba-finals-spurs-vs-heat.html):. 88.1
2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-finals-heat-vs-spurs.html):. 87.4
2015 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html):. 90.7
2016 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html):. 92.0



Publicly-available stats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418432) show that Jordan's first 3 rings required 30% more PPG in the playoffs with equal assists as Lebron's 3 rings ON A PER POSSESION BASIS
.
.

[guy]

Serious question.

Is it tougher to be your team's best scorer for 3 finals in a faster pace?

Or Your team's best Scorer/passer/rebounder/defender/Rim protector for 3 in a slower pace?

First off, the paces are basically identical.

Second, you clearly missed, or blatantly ignored, the point of my post.

[sekachu]

Discuss.




Beside 2007, He advanced in the final every years since he colluded with other superstars in the weak east.

[HenryGarfunkle]

You can fluke win 1-2 mvps, but the all time greats all have 3-4+ mvps.


So when arguing 5>3 we completely ignore context, but when its 3>2 We go by arbitrary opinions. Had kobe not choked a 3-1 lead in the first round or choked a 20 point lead in the finals he may have gotten more than 2 fmvps.
Yeah, Scoring 15 ppg on 36% shooting is alpha.

Lebron won at a higher ratio with wade 50% than Kobe 3/8 .38% had prime shaq for 8 years and only won 3 rings, while facing weaker comp, The sixers was a 1 man show, the la-kings series was rigged, and kobe scored 15 ppg on 30% shooting for another. that's embarrassing, any top GOAT wins atleast 5 Regardless of comp.


The lakers were so stacked kobe didn't even start untill his 3rd-4th year in the league :roll: :roll: and still only won 3 rings with prime shaq.
:eek: :eek:

https://media.giphy.com/media/uVaKgS6WSa0Mg/giphy.gif

[Nash]

This is too easy.

Lebron has played in a weaker conference his whole career and despite having the easier route to the finals, still got his ass kicked by the western team that had the more difficult route 4 out of 7 times. He's been successful 3 time in the finals as the man and Kobe has been successful in the finals 2 times as the man, but being the closer for those other 3 finals is >>>> than 1 finals win as the man. If you watched the games you would know how critical Kobe was on those 3 finals as the 2nd option due to the Hack a Shaq. Not to mention the wins were after going through the more difficult western conference with no gas left in the tank by the time he got to the finals. None left in the tank resulted in 2 losses for Kobe.

An almost FULL tank due to weak east path to finals resulted in FOUR losses for Lebron.

There is no argument who is more alpha when you look at the big picture.

Kobe left A DYNASTY and STILL won rings as the man. That is alpha as fvck and more alpha than any "decision" lebron has ever made in his entire career. Any top 10 all time player can join the top 2 and top 4 players in PER in the weak east and win some rings. Any top 10 player can join a team in the east that won the first draft pick 3 out of 4 years and beat a worn down injured GSW team with no gas left in the tank. Not everyone can leave a DYNASTY, form their own legacy, and shit on the doubters by winning 2 MORE rings. Such a career is reserved for alpha's like Kobe.

Now thanks for playing my boys, but the argument was actually over before it started.
Why you mentioning Kobe when the discussion is about leading your team to the finals, as the man?
Stop applying Shaq's accomplishments to Kobe.

[AirFederer]

:eek: :eek:

https://media.giphy.com/media/uVaKgS6WSa0Mg/giphy.gif

Funny gif :roll:

[Da_Realist]

when the best players you see on the way to the Finals are kyle lowry and paul millsap.. you better bet your ass you're makin the Finals.

This should have been the end of the thread.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And also played in a weaker conference, facing less ATG teams.

Jordan went H2H with Detroit and Boston MULTIPLE years at their pinnacle. Bron cannot f*ck with that kinda parity.

[ArbitraryWater]

And also played in a weaker conference, facing less ATG teams.

Jordan went H2H with Detroit and Boston MULTIPLE years at their pinnacle. Bron cannot f*ck with that kinda parity.

Yea, and got shredded every time :biggums:

What good is it mentioning those ball clubs when they werent on his path the years he actually made it to the finals? Lol. I guess if you name it as a reason for MJ not having as many finals trips... but you saying "Jordan went H2H" just sounds like he gave them some epic duel.

[egokiller]

Why you mentioning Kobe when the discussion is about leading your team to the finals, as the man?
Stop applying Shaq's accomplishments to Kobe.

Name another player who had the most dominant peak player to ever play the game leave his team in order to form his own legacy, and then prove to the world that he could STILL lead his team to the finals as the man and win TWO more rings!

His name is Kobe

This is why players like Lebron will always be beta by comparison. Lebron would have milked it for all it was worth playing with Shaq without worrying about shaping his own legacy. Such is the mentality of a beta personality. Such is the mentality of Lebron James.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yea, and got shredded every time :biggums:

What good is it mentioning those ball clubs when they werent on his path the years he actually made it to the finals? Lol. I guess if you name it as a reason for MJ not having as many finals trips... but you saying "Jordan went H2H" just sounds like he gave them some epic duel.

Are you high dude?

Try reading the actual thread topic...

[Hey Yo]

Lebron had 3 more ppg, 1 more rpg, and 5 more apg then the 2nd leading scorer, rebounder, and assister in the 2016 finals.

Jordan had 2 less rpg and 1.4 less apg then the top rebounder and assister but 20 more ppg then the 2nd leading scorer in the 1993 finals.

Does that really sound like Lebron had to do more and took a larger load and responsibility then Jordan? It's funny how people blindly fall for this narrative.
You forgot the part about defense where MJ had Pippen to guard the best opposing offensive threat. LeBron never had that luxury. He had to be both MJ AND Pippen rolled in one.

[Hey Yo]

Name another player who had the most dominant peak player to ever play the game leave his team in order to form his own legacy, and then prove to the world that he could STILL lead his team to the finals as the man and win TWO more rings!

His name is Kobe

This is why players like Lebron will always be beta by comparison. Lebron would have milked it for all it was worth playing with Shaq without worrying about shaping his own legacy. Such is the mentality of a beta personality. Such is the mentality of Lebron James.
Kobe could have formed his own legacy his rookie year if he would have let the Nets draft him like they wanted to.

Instead, he demanded to be on a contender cause he wanted no part of trying to build one. He wanted the easy way.

[egokiller]

You forgot the part about defense where MJ had Pippen to guard the best opposing offensive threat. LeBron never had that luxury. He had to be both MJ AND Pippen rolled in one.

If we are talking about being forgetful then you forgot the part about MJ working with Pippen outside of normal practice hours and shaping him into the defender he became. The narrative that Pippen was this amazing defender the moment he threw on a bulls jersey needs to stop. Maybe if Lebron devoted his life to the game the way MJ did by forcing Pippen to practice with him for hours on end, he too would have help a teammate of his become the level of defender that Pippen became.

It's well documented the amount of extra time Jordan spent developing Pippen. Please show us the documentation of Lebron spending the much needed extra time with a teammate of his similar to the way Jordan devoted hours on end to the development of Pippen's defense outside of team practice.

Your only rebuttal is to claim that lebron never had a teammate that was as willing as Pippen was to put the pride aside, make the necessary personal sacrifices, and allow MJ to train him to be better. That's lebron's own damn fault, because he's chosen which team to play for twice now.

Pippen has shown that he is one of the best defenders of all time. But MJ was the better defender. Michael could shut down anyone in the world for a 3 minute span.


Kobe could have formed his own legacy his rookie year if he would have let the Nets draft him like they wanted to.

Instead, he demanded to be on a contender cause he wanted no part of trying to build one. He wanted the easy way.

:facepalm So you think Kobe or any other HS player is concerned about "their legacy" during the time they are getting drafted into the NBA? They just want to play NBA level ball, and preferably on their favorite team. Once Kobe was of age to understand shaping of ones legacy, he made the correct decision. By comparison all lebron did when he was of age to understand legacy was ruin his image and legacy by collusion.

[tpols]

Kobe could have formed his own legacy his rookie year if he would have let the Nets draft him like they wanted to.

Instead, he demanded to be on a contender cause he wanted no part of trying to build one. He wanted the easy way.

even Kobe couldn't have predicted in 1996 what the East would become for next 15+ year stretch ... would've got more playing time from the start as well.. im sure if he knew these things he would've taken the cakewalks, but, again, i dont think Kobes a fortune teller.

[TheWinningFam]

:facepalm So you think Kobe or any other HS player is concerned about "their legacy" during the time they are getting drafted into the NBA? They just want to play NBA level ball, and preferably on their favorite team. Once Kobe was of age to understand shaping of ones legacy, he made the correct decision. By comparison all lebron did when he was of age to understand legacy was ruin his image and legacy by collusion.For a poster that claims to not have any alts and be ''unbiased'' you spend alot of time slurping up kobe in alot of your posts while attempting to diminish the accomplishments of lebron with arbitrary opinions like ''being alpha'' ''clutch''.

Kobe tried to get traded to an eastern team in the 2000s in his prime when the team was in the shitter, so lets not use age as an excuse.

You obviously don't know what the definition of collusion is so i'd stop saying it if i were you.

[egokiller]

For a poster that claims to not have any alts and be ''unbiased'' you spend alot of time slurping up kobe in alot of your posts while attempting to diminish the accomplishments of lebron with arbitrary opinions like ''being alpha'' ''clutch''.

Kobe tried to get traded to an eastern team in the 2000s in his prime when the team was in the shitter, so lets not use age as an excuse.

You obviously don't know what the definition of collusion is so i'd stop saying it if i were you.

There is no "attempt" but rather what actually is. I don't have to put any effort in to diminishing the accomplishments of players like Lebron because they did that on their own. We all have the facts that support this statement. I don't know how many times 3ball and others have to restate these facts before they are understood.

Kobe stayed on the same team for 20 years. Do you really wanna go down that route cause that's just another thing that Kobe has on Lebron?

An example of collusion is when you are top 1 in PER and you decide to join the top 2 (wade) and top 4 (bosh) in PER to form a stacked team in a historically weak east to give yourself the best shot at being in the finals.

Don't try to down play it, just accept that this is the fact and exactly what happened. Please name another player who was top 1 in PER that left his team and joined two other players who were at least #2 and #4 in PER. I'll wait.

You posters who try to embellish lebrons accomplishments always overlook the most simplest of facts and then the moment they are mentioned it destroys your whole argument. It's boring conversation and you should really come up with some new agenda but alas you can't because the facts are already there for all to reflect on.

A thread with the title "Lebron has been to the finals more times than Jordan" tries to imply that somehow Lebron is more alpha that MJ because he's been to the finals more times. This narrative is quickly destroyed and so you then move on to the next garbage argument which also is destroyed, and so on. It's the reason why lebron stans on this site have so many alts and their specialty is that when they lose every single argument about lebron, they then resort to claiming the person who owned them is some kind of kobe alt. Laughable at best.

[TheWinningFam]

There is no "attempt" but rather what actually is. I don't have to put any effort in to diminishing the accomplishments of players like Lebron because they did that on their own. We all have the facts that support this statement. I don't know how many times 3ball and others have to restate these facts before they are understood.Learn the difference between an arbitrary opinion and a fact,


Kobe stayed on the same team for 20 years. Do you really wanna go down that route cause that's just another thing that Kobe has on Lebron?Kobe tried to get traded in 07 and they wouldn't do it, just stop. :facepalm


An example of collusion is when you are top 1 in PER and you decide to join the top 2 (wade) and top 4 (bosh) in PER to form a stacked team in a historically weak east to give yourself the best shot at being in the finals.You clearly don't know what you're talking about, let me post the definition for you
Collusion:secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.
Explain to me how joining a 47 win team in free agency meets that definition, unless ofcourse we are going by kobetard logic again.




You posters who try to embellish lebrons accomplishments always overlook the most simplest of facts and then the moment they are mentioned it destroys your whole argument. It's boring conversation and you should really come up with some new agenda but alas you can't because the facts are already there for all to reflect on.
There's no argument
Lebron> your idol kobe bruh.
4 mvps and 3 fmvps in 13 seasons>1 mvp and 2 fmvps in 20, When i bring this up you try to say that mvp voting is media based, well for 1 i'll take credible media outlets over your arbitrary opinion, and 2 You can fluke win 1-2 mvps, but the all time greats all have 3-4+ total mvps.
Lebron Leading kobe in basically every statistical category>Kobe ''being loyal''

Lebron winning at a 50% clip with dwade >Kobe winning at a 38% clip with prime shaq.
Not to mention the competition, The 76ers was a 1 man show, the la-kings series was rigged, and kobe scored 15ppg on 30% shooting in another.


A thread with the title "Lebron has been to the finals more times than Jordan" tries to imply that somehow Lebron is more alpha that MJ because he's been to the finals more times. This narrative is quickly destroyed and so you then move on to the next garbage argument which also is destroyed, and so on. It's the reason why lebron stans on this site have so many alts and their specialty is that when they lose every single argument about lebron, they then resort to claiming the person who owned them is some kind of kobe alt. Laughable at best. Well, noone's implying that hes more alpha, only kobestans bring up ''being alpha'' :facepalm
And you're not destroying anyone's argument, you regurgitate the same kobestan rhetoric about ''collusion, alpha, being clutch, when all else fails 5 RANGZ'' and other arbitrary opinions to try to discredit stats and facts that lebron is the superior player.

[guy]

You forgot the part about defense where MJ had Pippen to guard the best opposing offensive threat. LeBron never had that luxury. He had to be both MJ AND Pippen rolled in one.

Pippen didn't guard Barkley and Lebron didn't guard Curry. I didn't mention it cause it's not true nor is the narrative that Pippen or Lebron always guarded the best player :oldlol:

[ISHGoat]

Learn the difference between an arbitrary opinion and a fact,

Kobe tried to get traded in 07 and they wouldn't do it, just stop. :facepalm

You clearly don't know what you're talking about, let me post the definition for you
Collusion:secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.
Explain to me how joining a 47 win team in free agency meets that definition, unless ofcourse we are going by kobetard logic again.




There's no argument
Lebron> your idol kobe bruh.
4 mvps and 3 fmvps in 13 seasons>1 mvp and 2 fmvps in 20, When i bring this up you try to say that mvp voting is media based, well for 1 i'll take credible media outlets over your arbitrary opinion, and 2 You can fluke win 1-2 mvps, but the all time greats all have 3-4+ total mvps.
Lebron Leading kobe in basically every statistical category>Kobe ''being loyal''

Lebron winning at a 50% clip with dwade >Kobe winning at a 38% clip with prime shaq.
Not to mention the competition, The 76ers was a 1 man show, the la-kings series was rigged, and kobe scored 15ppg on 30% shooting in another.

Well, noone's implying that hes more alpha, only kobestans bring up ''being alpha'' :facepalm
And you're not destroying anyone's argument, you regurgitate the same kobestan rhetoric about ''collusion, alpha, being clutch, when all else fails 5 RANGZ'' and other arbitrary opinions to try to discredit stats and facts that lebron is the superior player.

Holy shit.

The ether is unreal

[egokiller]

Again, what other #1 player in PER joined the #2 player and #4 player in PER and got their ass handed to them by a guy like Jason Terry?

I'm waiting for someone to give me a similar example.

Give me an example of a player who left his team to join not ONE but TWO other players who were considered top 5 in the league at the time of joining (we will use PER as the metric), and then get bitched slapped in the finals. It's the worse, most embarrassing thing to happen to any superstar in the history of the game and those are the facts.

The best you can offer me is KD this season. We know KD is a bitch just like we know Lebron is a bitch. That doesn't tell us anything and if KD does in fact fail like lebron in 2011, then he will be the biggest bitch of all time. This is literally the only thing a bron stan has to fall back on to make their player look like a lesser bitch.

Kobe on the other hand had the most dominant player to ever play LEAVE his team, and STILL won 2 more rings with the next best player being Gasol!!

This isn't even a debate anymore. It's arguing with lebron trolls who don't understand the history of the game and why Lebron is negatively viewed the way he is by the masses.

Can anyone go fetch me another 55 gal drum of ether? I'm running out because I'm pouring it on these idiots by the gallon. Someone call up lebron's biological father, the janitor, to clean up this mess.....

[TheWinningFam]

Give me an example of a player who left his team to join not ONE but TWO other players who were considered top 5 in the league at the time of joining (we will use PER as the metric), and then get bitched slapped in the finals. It's the worse, most embarrassing thing to happen to any superstar in the history of the game and those are the facts.
Bosh was not a top 5 player in 2009. :facepalm but going by this logic kobe wasn't a top 15 player in 2009 either, but you kobestans will swear up and down in another argument that kobe was a top 5 player in 2009.


The best you can offer me is KD this season. We know KD is a bitch just like we know Lebron is a bitch. That doesn't tell us anything and if KD does in fact fail like lebron in 2011, then he will be the biggest bitch of all time. This is litterally the only thing a bron stan has to fall back on to make their player look positive. Confusing arbitrary opinions with facts again. :facepalm


Kobe on the other hand had the most dominant player to ever play LEAVE his team, and STILL won 2 more rings with the next best player being Gasol!! And just a fews later tried to get himself traded, and when that failed he went on to choke a 3-1 lead in the first round AND a 20 point lead in the finals. :lebronamazed:


This isn't even a debate anymore. It's arguing with lebron trolls who don't understand the history of the game and why Lebron is negatively viewed the way he is by the masses. It was never a debate to begin with, LeBron>Kobe in every objective viewing lens. The only thing kobe currently has is 3 titles that he wasn't even his team's best player for over lebron.

[SouBeachTalents]

Again, what other #1 player in PER joined the #2 player and #4 player in PER and got their ass handed to them by a guy like Jason Terry?

I'm waiting for someone to give me a similar example.

Give me an example of a player who left his team to join not ONE but TWO other players who were considered top 5 in the league at the time of joining (we will use PER as the metric), and then get bitched slapped in the finals. It's the worse, most embarrassing thing to happen to any superstar in the history of the game and those are the facts.

The best you can offer me is KD this season. We know KD is a bitch just like we know Lebron is a bitch. That doesn't tell us anything and if KD does in fact fail like lebron in 2011, then he will be the biggest bitch of all time. This is litterally the only thing a bron stan has to fall back on to make their player look positive.

Kobe on the other hand had the most dominant player to ever play LEAVE his team, and STILL won 2 more rings with the next best player being Gasol!!

This isn't even a debate anymore. It's arguing with lebron trolls who don't understand the history of the game and why Lebron is negatively viewed the way he is by the masses.

Can anyone go fetch me another 55 gal drum of ether? I'm running out because I'm pouring it on these idiots by the gallon. Someone call up lebron's biological father, the janitor, to clean up this mess.....

People pretending like Bosh was even close to being a top 5 player in the league at any point in his career is the most hilarious revisionist history I think I've seen on ISH. Do people realize in 2010 Bosh missed the playoffs in the East and didn't even make an All-NBA Team? THIS is a top 4 player in the league :roll:

[HurricaneKid]

People pretending like Bosh was even close to being a top 5 player in the league at any point in his career is the most hilarious revisionist history I think I've seen on ISH. Do people realize in 2010 Bosh missed the playoffs in the East and didn't even make an All-NBA Team? THIS is a top 4 player in the league :roll:

Nevermind they were also not only playing Arroyo, Dampier, and the corpse of Z, but STARTING THEM. They had 40% of their starting lineup in 2011 that was not roster worthy.

[egokiller]

People pretending like Bosh was even close to being a top 5 player in the league at any point in his career is the most hilarious revisionist history I think I've seen on ISH. Do people realize in 2010 Bosh missed the playoffs in the East and didn't even make an All-NBA Team? THIS is a top 4 player in the league :roll:

No one is pretending, the facts tell us all we need to know. Chris Bosh was ranked 4th in the NBA and Wade was ranked 2nd. The top ranked player joined with the 2nd and 4th ranked players and then lost to Jason Terry. Anyone who does that can't be in the same conversation as Kobe because Kobe parted ways with Shaq and still won 2 more rings with Gasol as his 2nd best player. You can't possibly put Lebron above Kobe objectively after this happened. The facts don't support such an argument.

https://s31.postimg.org/65kecrkor/lebroncollude.jpg

[SouBeachTalents]

No one is pretending, the facts tell us all we need to know. Chris Bosh was ranked 4th in the NBA and Wade was ranked 2nd. The top ranked player joined with the 2nd and 4th ranked players and then lost to Jason Terry. Anyone who does that can't be in the same conversation as Kobe because Kobe parted ways with Shaq and still won 2 more rings with Gasol as his 2nd best player. You can't possibly put Lebron above Kobe objectively after this happened. The facts don't support such an argument.

https://s31.postimg.org/65kecrkor/lebroncollude.jpg

Then the facts also tell us

1. Kobe was the 15th best player in the league in 2010
2. Gasol was the best player on the 2010 Lakers
3. LeBron is the 2nd greatest player of all time

[TheWinningFam]

No one is pretending, the facts tell us all we need to know. Chris Bosh was ranked 4th in the NBA and Wade was ranked 2nd. The top ranked player joined with the 2nd and 4th ranked players and then lost to Jason Terry. Anyone who does that can't be in the same conversation as Kobe because Kobe parted ways with Shaq and still won 2 more rings with Gasol as his 2nd best player. You can't possibly put Lebron above Kobe objectively after this happened. The facts don't support such an argument.
er
[img]https://s31.postimg.org/65kecrkor/lebroncollude.jpg[/imyerg]
Show me three articles from a credible source in 2011 saying bosh was a top 5 Player in 2009 :facepalm

going by this per logic, kobe wasn't a top 10 player in 09, gasol was the best player on the lakers in 2010.

Choking a 20 point lead in the finals and 3-1 lead in the first round>Losing to the mavs in 6

[Hey Yo]

[QUOTE]If we are talking about being forgetful then you forgot the part about MJ working with Pippen outside of normal practice hours and shaping him into the defender he became. The narrative that Pippen was this amazing defender the moment he threw on a bulls jersey needs to stop. Maybe if Lebron devoted his life to the game the way MJ did by forcing Pippen to practice with him for hours on end, he too would have help a teammate of his become the level of defender that Pippen became.
Except that LeBron and the Cavs had a revolving door of starters and players who weren't there long enough to even try to do so. Or even the tools to become a great defender.


Your only rebuttal is to claim that lebron never had a teammate that was as willing as Pippen was to put the pride aside, make the necessary personal sacrifices, and allow MJ to train him to be better. That's lebron's own damn fault, because he's chosen which team to play for twice now.
He never had a teammate long enough to even try do so. Pippen was locked up for 4yrs after signing in 87' and MJ took the cash the following year by signing an 8yr deal. They weren't going any where.

James never had that comfort in his first 7yrs to work with a teammate (of Pip's caliber) who was going to be there that long.


Pippen has shown that he is one of the best defenders of all time. But MJ was the better defender. Michael could shut down anyone in the world for a 3 minute span.
:oldlol:



So you think Kobe or any other HS player is concerned about "their legacy" during the time they are getting drafted into the NBA? They just want to play NBA level ball, and preferably on their favorite team. Once Kobe was of age to understand shaping of ones legacy, he made the correct decision. By comparison all lebron did when he was of age to understand legacy was ruin his image and legacy by collusion.
He could have done that right out of the gate in New Jersey but instead chose to hand out towels and gatorade during timeouts his first 2 seasons by demanding to play for LA.

Plus he knew Shaq would be joining LA cause that's the reason they traded prime Divac. It was what you like to call "collusion" on the part of Kobe.

Like a spoiled bitch, he wanted the easy way right from the beginning, instead of battling through hard times. As soon as he had a couple down seasons after Shaq was traded....":cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: I want traded, it's too hard to carry a team by myself"

pathetic

[tamaraw08]

because rasheed wallace was slightly better imo.. even Rip Hamilton was the team's leading scorer by a lot ... Chauncey was battling for 3rd or 4th best true impact on that team.. and he was still really good, so that speaks to how good the whole squad was. That team would run any current East contender from the past 5+ years sans cleveland and miami big three's off the court .. who they would both still give a good battle to

Regardless if Billups is the 2nd best or the 3rd best player on that team the guy is SO MUCH BETTER THAN Kyle Lowry and yes even Jeff Teague.
There is just NO WAY Raptors and Hawks advance to the 2nd round and beat the healthy OKC, Clips, Grizz etc.
I can't believe we are debating on how weak the East is esp after Boston got old.

[egokiller]

Show me three articles from a credible source in 2011 saying bosh was a top 5 Player in 2009 :facepalm

going by this per logic, kobe wasn't a top 10 player in 09, gasol was the best player on the lakers in 2010.

Choking a 20 point lead in the finals and 3-1 lead in the first round>Losing to the mavs in 6

So let's get this straight. Lebron, who knows he's going to get shit from everyone for leaving Cleveland and having closed door sessions with Wade about teaming up, is not going to try and go for the best possible player that he can who is a free agent that compliments the positions that he and Wade play? There's a reason why Lebron chose Bosh as the other guy to join him in Miami. You think lebron was like "let me engage some scrub to come team with me". It doesn't matter if Bosh was a legit #5 best or not, the point is that lebron was such a beta that behind closed doors he made an arrangement to play with the best 2 free agents that were willing to play with him. Now again, compare that to an alpha like Kobe who could have done the same exact thing, but didn't and instead did just the opposite by have Shaq leave. These are the facts.

[La Frescobaldi]

He's correct, but let's back up to this times to the finals discussion.

Since Kobe has been to the finals the same number of times as Lebron let's compare:

Kobe 5/7
Lebron 3/7

That tells us all we need to know. No need to indulge in specifics, just understand that 5 is greater than 3. If you want specifics, one man as the 1A/1B option led his team to the chip more times than the other man led his team to the chip, AND HE DID IT WHILE playing for the more difficult west.

Game over.
Thanks for playing.

This isn't even hot garbage. It's the fetid stench of hot garbage.

All the stink and the smell but without any substance.

[AirBonner]

So let's get this straight. Lebron, who knows he's going to get shit from everyone for leaving Cleveland and having closed door sessions with Wade about teaming up, is not going to try and go for the best possible player that he can who is a free agent that compliments the positions that he and Wade play? There's a reason why Lebron chose Bosh as the other guy to join him in Miami. You think lebron was like "let me engage some scrub to come team with me". It doesn't matter if Bosh was a legit #5 best or not, the point is that lebron was such a beta that behind closed doors he made an arrangement to play with the best 2 free agents that were willing to play with him. Now again, compare that to an alpha like Kobe who could have done the same exact thing, but didn't and instead did just the opposite by have Shaq leave. These are the facts.
Kobe forced his way onto a championship Laker team when he was drafted. Kobe threatened to leave the lakers when he had to carry them. Kobe's entire career has been about taking the easy road. Fact.

[egokiller]

He never had a teammate long enough to even try do so.

:roll:

That's because he kept team hopping! Lebron was even fortunate enough to join a team that had Z on it, who was a 2003 all-star healthy as can be having played 81 games. Which player on the bulls was an all-star in 1984 when MJ joined them? No one. How many years did LeBron play with Z? 7 years? Show us the articles that provide the evidence that Lebron was making personal sacrifices and working out with Z outside of practices the way MJ was working with Pippen. With the media much more focused on players during Lebrons first round with the Cavs relative to MJ's time, surely you can find at least one piece of supporting evidence to indicate that Lebron actually gave a damn about helping to develop his 7 year teammate, Z.


He could have done that right out of the gate in New Jersey but instead chose to hand out towels and gatorade during timeouts his first 2 seasons by demanding to play for LA.

Because he was disciplined and wanted to play for his favorite team instead of worrying about being rookie of the year right out of the gate. It worked out perfectly with him retiring after 20 years playing on the same team and winning 5 rings after 7 trips to the finals while playing in the difficult west his entire career. The end result is a player who is more respected and more alpha that Lebron will ever hope to be.

[LostCause]

People still saying that dumb shit about Kobe forcing his way to the Lakers? :roll:

http://www.lakersnation.com/fact-vs-fiction-vol-i-the-true-story-of-how-kobe-became-a-laker/2014/03/06/3/


It seems as if Moore, like many others, will never be convinced otherwise. Never mind that Kobe worked out for the Nets three times or that his parents had dinner with their front office on the eve of the draft, never mind that Kobe worked out for the Celtics, who owned the 6th pick, or twice for the Clippers, who owned the 7th pick. I guess those were all smoke screens, right?



or

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/los-angeles-lakers-kobe-bryant-charlotte-hornets-dave-cowens-draft-day-trade-122915


At the time, the Hornets were in win-now mode and felt they needed a big man after trading away Alonzo Mourning to get Glen Rice. Adding an 18-year-old project like Bryant -- who the Hornets didn't see historical potential in -- didn't make a lot of sense with the franchise's timeline.
“If we were going to make a move, we wanted to get a big,” Cowens said. “LA was willing to give up Vlade, and it wasn’t like we were trading Kobe for another guy who was going to play the 2 or the 3 position. We had Glen Rice, Dell Curry, and Muggsy Bogues, some guys who could play a little bit from the backcourt, and we were looking to try to win right away. We needed to get a big.

But then when Hey Yo is still repeating his unique narrative that implies MJ didn't have to focus on defense as well as offense, can't expect much from the dude

[Hey Yo]

That's because he kept team hopping!
dumb


Lebron was even fortunate enough to join a team that had Z on it, who was a 2003 all-star healthy as can be having played 81 games. Which player on the bulls was an all-star in 1984 when MJ joined them? No one. How many years did LeBron play with Z? 7 years? Show us the articles that provide the evidence that Lebron was making personal sacrifices and working out with Z outside of practices the way MJ was working with Pippen. With the media much more focused on players during Lebrons first round with the Cavs relative to MJ's time, surely you can find at least one piece of supporting evidence to indicate that Lebron actually gave a damn about helping to develop his 7 year teammate, Z.
Z was 28yrs old when 18yr old James was drafted. It's 6'8 LeBron's job to make 7'3 Ilgauskas a better player? If he didn't give a shit about Z then he would have never pushed for Cleveland to re-sign him. Z wouldn't have went to Miami if he didn't respect LeBron.

GTFO with your retarded shit



Because he was disciplined and wanted to play for his favorite team instead of worrying about being rookie of the year right out of the gate. It worked out perfectly with him retiring after 20 years playing on the same team and winning 5 rings after 7 trips to the finals while playing in the difficult west his entire career. The end result is a player who is more respected and more alpha that Lebron will ever hope to be.

He was a spoiled bitch who had everything givin' to him leading up to the draft. He wanted the easy way by playing for LA and made sure other teams knew he wouldn't sign leading up to draft day.

Kobe, more respected than James??? :roll:

[egokiller]

Lol hey yo keeps moving his goal post all over the field in an effort to support his dumb logic. First he says that lebron never had a teammate long enough to make better and as soon as I point out a fresh Z who just played 81 games and was an all-star the day lebron became a Cav going on to play 7 years with lebron, he changes his tune. Yes, a rookie of the year should help his teammate. Lebron was the leader of that team the moment he put on a Cavs jersey and the fact that Z is taller means nothing you idiot.

:roll:

Kobe will always be more respected and more alpha that Lebron because he wasn't a team hopping ring chaser that played in a historically weak conference only to be sitting at 3/7. Pathetic.

[34-24 Footwork]

2007 and 2014....

Lebron led teams got MONKEYSTOMPED. End of discussion.

[TheWinningFam]

Kobe will always be more respected and more alpha that Lebron because he wasn't a team hopping ring chaser that played in a historically weak conference only to be sitting at 3/7. Pathetic.
Nobody cares about who you think is respected more lame. You claim to not be a kobetard/have alts but constantly spew the same rhetoric verbatim that other kobetards on this forum say.http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/mjlol.png

at the end of the day 7 total mvps, 50% win clip with wade and superior stats, and every credible source suggesting lebron being the superior player > 3 total mvps 3/8 with prime shaq, and using arbitrary opinions to determine ''being alpha.''

Get over it.

[Hey Yo]

People still saying that dumb shit about Kobe forcing his way to the Lakers? :roll:

http://www.lakersnation.com/fact-vs-fiction-vol-i-the-true-story-of-how-kobe-became-a-laker/2014/03/06/3/



or

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/los-angeles-lakers-kobe-bryant-charlotte-hornets-dave-cowens-draft-day-trade-122915



But then when Hey Yo is still repeating his unique narrative that implies MJ didn't have to focus on defense as well as offense, can't expect much from the dude
Using a Lakers site for facts??? :oldlol:

http://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/kobe-bryant-lakers-hornets-draft-day/265370


I recently watched Showtime’s “Kobe Bryant’s Muse” as well as ESPN’s 30 for 30 “Sole Man” about shoe legend Sonny Vaccaro, and both touched on how Kobe became a Laker.

In the Showtime film, Bryant reveals that the Lakers were his favorite team growing up. He wanted to play for them and be their next star. In “Sole Man,” Vaccaro, who signed Bryant to an endorsement deal with Adidas and was instrumental in Kobe’s jump to the pros, acknowledges that they wanted Kobe to play for the Lakers. He says they even created a rumor that Kobe would go play pro ball in Italy to dissuade teams from drafting him.


“It was my duty to inform people: buyer beware. So I had no compunction about going around telling everybody — especially New Jersey — that the possibility existed that Kobe Bryant might go to Italy … and the New Jersey Nets bit,” Vaccaro says in “Sole Man.”

Bryant’s agent Arn Tellem somewhat says concedes that they manipulated the situation.


“I think what people should understand and respect is that this is a business,” he said. “Most players, when they’re drafted, rarely have the opportunity to have their dreams fulfilled. But we were in a position to do it, so we went for it, and we achieved it. You can’t begrudge anyone for trying to get their career objectives accomplished. Everyone else in this country does that every day of the week.”

or

http://www.espn.com/new-york/nba/columns/story?id=6255802&columnist=oconnor_ian


Over lunch on draft day, Calipari and Nash told one of the Nets' seven owners, Joe Taub, that Bryant would be a Net in eight hours. Taub preferred John Wallace, the Syracuse senior, and worried that a high school kid might ultimately leave for a bigger market and a better team in free agency.

Only Bryant wasn't about to wait years for his liberation. He called Calipari after the coach's lunch with Taub, and Bryant's agent, Arn Tellem, called Nash. Prospect and agent declared they wanted no part of Jersey; Tellem even threatened that his client would play in Italy if the Nets ignored their wishes.

Nash met with a panicked Calipari and tried to calm the coach. The GM made some phone calls and figured out that the Lakers' Jerry West had reached an agreement with Charlotte, holding the 13th pick, to trade Vlade Divac for Bryant; West was confident that Kobe would make it to No. 13 if the Nets passed at No. 8.

Sneaker maven Sonny Vaccaro would later admit he worked with his good friend, Tellem, to maneuver Bryant to a franchise that would maximize his marketing charms. But Nash thought the Nets should hold firm and call Bryant's bluff.

"Kobe wasn't going to play in Italy, and he had nowhere else to go," Nash said. "But I firmly believe a call from [agent] David Falk, who was representing Kerry Kittles, made the difference."

Nash said Falk leaned hard on Calipari to take his client. As coach and executive VP of basketball operations, Calipari had final say. About 90 minutes before the draft, he told his owners he would select Kittles at No. 8.
Like I said....wanted no part in trying to build a contender. Just wanted the easy way to achieve his goals with Shaq

[egokiller]

Nobody cares about who you think is respected more lame. You claim to not be a kobetard/have alts but constantly spew the same rhetoric verbatim that other kobetards on this forum say.http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/mjlol.png

at the end of the day 7 total mvps, 50% win clip with wade and superior stats, and every credible source suggesting lebron being the superior player > 3 total mvps 3/8 with prime shaq, and using arbitrary opinions to determine ''being alpha.''

Get over it.

LOL 2/4 win clip with wade in a historically weak east and an easy route to the finals yet Spurs and Dallas still busted his ass after going through the tough WCF. Yep, that's a real convincing argument.

Kobe is simply more alpha and always will be.

[TheWinningFam]

LOL 2/4 win clip with wade in a historically weak east and an easy route to the finals yet Spurs and Dallas still busted his ass after going through the tough WCF. Yep, that's a real convincing argument.

Kobe is simply more alpha and always will be.
Only 3 rings in 8 years with prime shaq, and played on rosters so stacked he didn't even start until his 3rd-4th year in the league, The 76ers was a 1 man show, The la-kings series was rigged, and kobe scored 15 ppg on 30% shooting in another. So ''alpha'' :sleeping

The mavs easily swept kobe's back to back lakers in the previous round, without a wade misplay the heat go up 3-1 instead of 2-2. :rolleyes:

[egokiller]

Can you imagine Jason Terry styling on a prime Kobe to ice a finals series like he did to Lebron?

[TommyGriffin]

Jason ****ing Terry. Got Damn.

[Maverick Carter]

Jason ****ing Terry. Got Damn.

Swept Kobe Bryant in 2011:roll: