Where would you take prime Ben Wallace among current players?

[iamgine]

He wasn't a scorer and can be considered a liability on offense with his terrible free throw shooting.

That said, if you're drafting a team from scratch with current players for one season only, where would you rank prime Ben Wallace?

[Phiology]

As far as centers go, i'd probably pick him first or second to KAT or AD, if you would even call them centers.

Problem is, as you mentioned, that he was so impactful, but only doing limited things.

So if you are a team in desparate need of a rebounder and rim protector, I'd not hesitate to pick him immediately.

As the first player of my team, I'd have to build the rest around him. This however may not be so easy, because all impactful (franchise type) offensive players may have already been selected by other teams. And we all know how important it is to have franchise talent in scoring/creating for others.

To answer the question: If that was possible, I might be inclined to pick him with my second pick, using the first for some offensive PF or a good wing.

If all talent i considered first pick worthy was already selected before, I might choose him first and try to surround him with specialized scrubs later.

[BigKAT]

Among big guys?

Top 5-10. I'd take guys like Blake Griffin, KAT, AD, Lamarcus Aldridge and Drummond before him.

Overall?

Late first round pick.

[swagga]

Among big guys?

Top 5-10. I'd take guys like Blake Griffin, KAT, AD, Lamarcus Aldridge and Drummond before him.

Overall?

Late first round pick.

lol at blake griffin and drummond. These dudes play loser ball, their head isn't in the game, and their stats are overrated by poor positioning and strategy. They post stats but their teams do the same with or without them .. that should tell you all you need to know.

and for you young posters ben wallace would THRIVE in this era of small ball.
If managers would know what they'd get with him would be a top 5 pick no questions asked. 15 rpg and 3 blk plus the best combination of PNR defense and rim protection in league history is just too much to pass up. He is the perfect center for this small ball era.

This forum really doesn't understand player IQ tbh ... wallace would be better in this era.

[tpols]

Ben Wallace would be a much bigger liability in today's game than he was when he played.. we're talking a guy who shoots in the 30s and 40s % for free throws, has absolutely no offensive game.. but really it's the FTs. With so much emphasis today put on analytics, teams have done the Hack a whoever much more often to limit team efficiency.. it used to be just shaq and maybe a few guys, now it feels like every center in the league gets this treatment if they cant shoot, and it really cripples their effectiveness.


Ben Wallace played in the perfect environment for his style.. an era and conference where efficiency was supplanted by physicality. iso heavy, thug ball early 00's East.. ugly, and mucked up battles. Today's league is too soft, too much microscoping and coddling especially to star's wishes. We just saw a dude get thrown out the Finals for basically nothing.. Big Ben wasn't made for that type of sh!t.

[ClipperRevival]

Ben Wallace would be a much bigger liability in today's game than he was when he played.. we're talking a guy who shoots in the 30s and 40s % for free throws, has absolutely no offensive game.. but really it's the FTs. With so much emphasis today put on analytics, teams have done the Hack a whoever much more often to limit team efficiency.. it used to be just shaq and maybe a few guys, now it feels like every center in the league gets this treatment if they cant shoot, and it really cripples their effectiveness.


Ben Wallace played in the perfect environment for his style.. an era and conference where efficiency was supplanted by physicality. iso heavy, thug ball early 00's East.. ugly, and mucked up battles. Today's league is too soft, too much microscoping and coddling especially to star's wishes. We just saw a dude get thrown out the Finals for basically nothing.. Big Ben wasn't made for that type of sh!t.

Of course there is some validity to the FT scenario but that doesn't stop D. Jordan or Drummond from impacting the game. And Ben's FT pct was around that neighborhood.

The bottom line is the guy was a freaken special talent and he would be impactful today just as he was in his day, maybe even more so given the small ball emphasis (small players) and his ability to defend in the perimeter, which is a huge premium right now. He was a GOAT level defender.

[tpols]

This forum really doesn't understand player IQ tbh ... wallace would be better in this era.



You dont understand the dynamics of the game if you think Ben would be better in todays light it up era on some hot shot small ball team.


The Pistons at their peak were a bottom half offense.. they didnt have much firepower in that regard. To illustrate, the Warriors had a 115 ORTG last year, the '04 Pistons had a 102 ORTG at their best.. there's no need to hack a wallace when the team is barely breaking even offensively. It doesnt make sense. But when a team has great offensive efficiency, it makes a ton of sense to hack their poorest FT shooter.


The reason Ben was able to stay on the floor back then and be so great is because his teams were heavily tilted towards the defensive side of the ball. If you threw him on some explosive offense, he would be rode off the court by any competent coach.

[tpols]

Of course there is some validity to the FT scenario but that doesn't stop D. Jordan or Drummond from impacting the game. And Ben's FT pct was around that neighborhood.

The bottom line is the guy was a freaken special talent and he would be impactful today just as he was in his day, maybe even more so given the small ball emphasis (small players) and his ability to defend in the perimeter, which is a huge premium right now. He was a GOAT level defender.


DeAndre Jordan is a great player but his lack of FT shooting cripples his team all the time, especially in high stakes scenarios. Drummond had to be subbed out at the most critical junctions of playoff games this past year.. it matters... big time today.

[DaHeezy]

The only team Ben would thrive on are the ones where there is so much offensive depth that he could solely concentrate on what he does. Lol at the posters thinking he's a top 3 front court player. The Pistons made Ben look good, not the other way around.

[HurricaneKid]

You
The reason Ben was able to stay on the floor back then and be so great is because his teams were heavily tilted towards the defensive side of the ball. If you threw him on some explosive offense, he would be rode off the court by any competent coach.

He was offensively challenged but STILL found a way to lead the league in RAPM. THATS how good he was defensively.

But the league has gotten REALLY good at getting defenses to switch out their interior powerhouses to the perimeter. Just watch what teams do with Gobert now. Everyone was disappointed in his season last year but it was just because teams figured out what scenarios the Jazz were allowing switches and running those actions before they started their sets.

If Wallace wasn't allowed the physical freedom he had (which today's players aren't allowed" AND he was brought out into space and forced to leave the paint, his impact would be lessened to nearly zero.

He was also a 41% career FT shooter and was even worse from the field. The year the Pistons won the title he shot 90/368 from the field outside of "at the rim" shots, including shooting 31/150 (.207) from 3-10 ft.

You just cannot get away with that level of one dimensional play any longer. Teams are far more adept at getting you into your areas of weakness and Wallace had plenty to pick on.

I tend to think he is wildly underrated. He was the best player on a Championship team, and almost was that TWICE (lost G7 to the Spurs) on the strength of his defensive prowess. But I also don't think his game translates well to today.

[tpols]

i would like to see big ben on a team like the Pacers with Paul George.. their output is so low that it wouldnt be much worth it to waste a ton of fouls on him.. and that defense would be nasty.

[tpols]

He was offensively challenged but STILL found a way to lead the league in RAPM. THATS how good he was defensively.

But the league has gotten REALLY good at getting defenses to switch out their interior powerhouses to the perimeter. Just watch what teams do with Gobert now. Everyone was disappointed in his season last year but it was just because teams figured out what scenarios the Jazz were allowing switches and running those actions before they started their sets.

If Wallace wasn't allowed the physical freedom he had (which today's players aren't allowed" AND he was brought out into space and forced to leave the paint, his impact would be lessened to nearly zero.

He was also a 41% career FT shooter and was even worse from the field. The year the Pistons won the title he shot 90/368 from the field outside of "at the rim" shots, including shooting 31/150 (.207) from 3-10 ft.

You just cannot get away with that level of one dimensional play any longer. Teams are far more adept at getting you into your areas of weakness and Wallace had plenty to pick on.

I tend to think he is wildly underrated. He was the best player on a Championship team, and almost was that TWICE (lost G7 to the Spurs) on the strength of his defensive prowess. But I also don't think his game translates well to today.


i agree he's underrated and would be a force in any era mid 00s going backward.. today's game is a real tough fit for him

[ClipperRevival]

The only team Ben would thrive on are the ones where there is so much offensive depth that he could solely concentrate on what he does. Lol at the posters thinking he's a top 3 front court player. The Pistons made Ben look good, not the other way around.

Please elaborate on how the Pistons made him look good.

[Kblaze8855]

I feel like a lot of this talk about what ___ would do today is a bit much at times. Especially when the player played pretty much everyone in the league now. Ben Wallace was still fairly effective like....5 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVEvZGAuNjg


Thats actually his career high scoring night....in 2011.....7-8 or so years past his best ball.

Andre Drummond just got 130 million dollar contract. Deandre has been a starter playing big minutes on a contender for 3 years and someone is gonna throw him 120 million once hes back on the market.

There would be a massive market for what Ben Wallace offered. People always overstate how much the league changes in short periods of time. 2004 was really different from 2010...they changed the rules to make it happen. But those times are rare.

Nothing has changed so much since 2010 or so that Ben wouldnt be effective today in his prime. Its a copycat league and at the moment people want to small ball it. Wasnt long ago the Lakers had people wondering what to do about two seven footers who could score.

The game is the game. It goes this way or that for a few years at a time....but great is great.

Ben would be an impact player in any era. You go defend the shit outta the pick and roll....block 6 shots...pull down 14-19 rebounds....5 on offense? You can miss some FTs and still be worth a damn.

[aj1987]

I wouldn't take him on the Heat for sure. We need scoring. Big Ben would be a perfect fit on the Clippers and the Warriors. Those teams would win 70+ EASY (Warriors 75+) with Big Ben.

[AintNoSunshine]

I am sure anyone would want Big Ben on their team, for toughness, for defense, for rebounding. Unless you already have an all time great center on your team, you want Big Ben. You can make up for his scoring easily but for someone who can anchor an entire defense, it is difficult to come by.

[Warriorsfan86]

If the Warriors had prime Ben Wallace they might literally win 80 games. If they stayed healthy of course. All he would have to do is what he's best at and the other guys would take care of the rest.

[swagga]

You dont understand the dynamics of the game if you think Ben would be better in todays light it up era on some hot shot small ball team.


The Pistons at their peak were a bottom half offense.. they didnt have much firepower in that regard. To illustrate, the Warriors had a 115 ORTG last year, the '04 Pistons had a 102 ORTG at their best.. there's no need to hack a wallace when the team is barely breaking even offensively. It doesnt make sense. But when a team has great offensive efficiency, it makes a ton of sense to hack their poorest FT shooter.


The reason Ben was able to stay on the floor back then and be so great is because his teams were heavily tilted towards the defensive side of the ball. If you threw him on some explosive offense, he would be rode off the court by any competent coach.

nice try son but:
1. check the new (this summer) rules.
2. deandre jordan can stay on the floor and he isn't a quarter of ben wallace defensively. They also play uptempo ... there goes your argument tbh. drummond can stay on the floor too, and drummond actually gets the ball in his hands, wallace wouldn't even sniff it.
3. hack-a-somebody at 40% is still a bad strategy when that somebody alters the game defensively, as the fouling team racks up fouls like crazy and are then punished for this strategy. The fact that dumb coaches don't know how to adapt is a different problem. Larry brown used this, and believe it or not they had hack-a-shaq back then too.
This becomes exponentially worse when used against fast paced teams as this will leave the hacking team very early in the penalty.

lol not understanding the game, bro, every post of yours is dripping with hate, It's fcking hilarious tbh. :oldlol:

[zeerghit]

nice try son but:
1. check the new (this summer) rules.
2. deandre jordan can stay on the floor and he isn't a quarter of ben wallace defensively. They also play uptempo ... there goes your argument tbh. drummond can stay on the floor too, and drummond actually gets the ball in his hands, wallace wouldn't even sniff it.
3. hack-a-somebody at 40% is still a bad strategy when that somebody alters the game defensively, as the fouling team racks up fouls like crazy and are then punished for this strategy. The fact that dumb coaches don't know how to adapt is a different problem. Larry brown used this, and believe it or not they had hack-a-shaq back then too.
This becomes exponentially worse when used against fast paced teams as this will leave the hacking team very early in the penalty.

lol not understanding the game, bro, every post of yours is dripping with hate, It's fcking hilarious tbh. :oldlol:
ur point is on topic..?

[swagga]

He was offensively challenged but STILL found a way to lead the league in RAPM. THATS how good he was defensively.

But the league has gotten REALLY good at getting defenses to switch out their interior powerhouses to the perimeter. Just watch what teams do with Gobert now. Everyone was disappointed in his season last year but it was just because teams figured out what scenarios the Jazz were allowing switches and running those actions before they started their sets.

If Wallace wasn't allowed the physical freedom he had (which today's players aren't allowed" AND he was brought out into space and forced to leave the paint, his impact would be lessened to nearly zero.

He was also a 41% career FT shooter and was even worse from the field. The year the Pistons won the title he shot 90/368 from the field outside of "at the rim" shots, including shooting 31/150 (.207) from 3-10 ft.

You just cannot get away with that level of one dimensional play any longer. Teams are far more adept at getting you into your areas of weakness and Wallace had plenty to pick on.

I tend to think he is wildly underrated. He was the best player on a Championship team, and almost was that TWICE (lost G7 to the Spurs) on the strength of his defensive prowess. But I also don't think his game translates well to today.

comparing gobert and wallace in perimeter defense is laughable. wallace is one of the best perimeter defensive bigs in history. He was quick as hell, he'd have a field day blocking/smothering smaller guys trying to iso on him. Check the 2004 finals to see pnrs and switched out of which he had to defend kobe on an island. Or check 2005 when he got ginobili. If you think pop and phil weren't using this really basic strategy you mention you better watch some tape.

Also compared to the vast majority of bigs wallace got some time at SF in his youth, this should tell you all you need to know about his perimeter defense .. as he didn't get that playing time for his shooting :oldlol:

[swagga]

ur point is on topic..?

i've given my point on the topic, I was arguing with numbnuts WHY wallace's value would be very high and how his weaknesses wouldn't be at all critical in today's game, giving example of players with similar weaknesses.

[aj1987]

nice try son but:
1. check the new (this summer) rules.
2. deandre jordan can stay on the floor and he isn't a quarter of ben wallace defensively. They also play uptempo ... there goes your argument tbh. drummond can stay on the floor too, and drummond actually gets the ball in his hands, wallace wouldn't even sniff it.
3. hack-a-somebody at 40% is still a bad strategy when that somebody alters the game defensively, as the fouling team racks up fouls like crazy and are then punished for this strategy. The fact that dumb coaches don't know how to adapt is a different problem. Larry brown used this, and believe it or not they had hack-a-shaq back then too.
This becomes exponentially worse when used against fast paced teams as this will leave the hacking team very early in the penalty.

lol not understanding the game, bro, every post of yours is dripping with hate, It's fcking hilarious tbh. :oldlol:
Well, the guy just compared one the GOAT offenses to the '04 Pistons. The guy has been on a perpetual meltdown.

[bizil]

In terms of defensive and rebounding, Ben is damn near the PERFECT BIG for this small ball era! He could control the paint in terms of the boards and blocks of course. BUT on the perimeter, he could handle the switches on the pick and rolls. And even on offense, he had the athletic ability to be a great roll guy on the PnR.

[swagga]

Well, the guy just compared one the GOAT offenses to the '04 Pistons. The guy has been on a perpetual meltdown.

tpools is one of the funniest dudes on this site, he isn't autistic (warriorfan/3ball/euroleague) but actually thinks he is unbiased (which he isn't). It's funny to see him take rules/facts/events and unconsciously try to spin them, or using them only when they fit his agenda. I guess kobe retiring and lebron getting the greatest finals win in history in the same summer is just too much :roll:

[iamgine]

I see one late first round pick and one early 2nd round pick.

No one would draft him top 5? I would surely be tempted to do that.

[BigKAT]

I see one late first round pick and one early 2nd round pick.

No one would draft him top 5? I would surely be tempted to do that.

I dunno.
Out of all the players in the league?

Before Curry, Lebron, Durant, CP3, Anthony Davis and others?

The reason I went with Drummond before him is that Ben Wallace never really scored even ten points per game. He had 15 rebounds.

I mean, seriously, you'd think he'd get enough putbacks just to cross the 10 point threshold once.

Drummond as he is? Yeah Ben Wallace for sure. But I really think Drummond is going to get better in the next 2-3 years and end up being the better player. I'm really high on that guy. I think he can end up a prenneial 18/12 guy on a contender if you pair him with the right guard. (Not reggie jackson imo. Maybe Booker?)

[Phiology]

I see one late first round pick and one early 2nd round pick.

No one would draft him top 5? I would surely be tempted to do that.

I already mentioned that I would be willing to pick him first among true Centers.
However, consider you have a top 10 pick for instance, and you choose Wallace first and fill up the squad with good/ok players, such like that (random example, complete made up just to make that point)

Rubio
Korver
Parsons
Anderson
Wallace

and compare that to for example

Rubio
Korver
Leonard/George
Anderson
Pachulia

I would be inclined to say, that the second team has better chances of advancing far (and the players in first team are all rather ok players for what you might really get in a redraft).

This is why I would draft him first round only when all top offensive players or offensive/defensive stars are already gone. Elite offense talent is much harder to come by than defense, because with the right schemes and team work you can make up on desense easier imo.

[fourkicks44]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/2620939/crystal-waters-say-hey-o.gif

[iamgine]

I dunno.
Out of all the players in the league?

Before Curry, Lebron, Durant, CP3, Anthony Davis and others?

The reason I went with Drummond before him is that Ben Wallace never really scored even ten points per game. He had 15 rebounds.

I mean, seriously, you'd think he'd get enough putbacks just to cross the 10 point threshold once.

Drummond as he is? Yeah Ben Wallace for sure. But I really think Drummond is going to get better in the next 2-3 years and end up being the better player. I'm really high on that guy. I think he can end up a prenneial 18/12 guy on a contender if you pair him with the right guard. (Not reggie jackson imo. Maybe Booker?)


He wasn't a scorer and can be considered a liability on offense with his terrible free throw shooting.

That said, if you're drafting a team from scratch with current players for one season only, where would you rank prime Ben Wallace?

...

Also, Drummond has sort of matched Big Ben's numbers last season but he's 10th in DPOY voting while Ben was 4x DPOY. Drummond will get better of course but you think he'll ever be even close to Ben defensively?

[BigKAT]

...

Also, Drummond has sort of matched Big Ben's numbers last season but he's 10th in DPOY voting while Ben was 4x DPOY. Drummond will get better of course but you think he'll ever be even close to Ben defensively?

Probably not.

But hear me out.
Back in the early 2000's it appears as though the league was more ISO Heavy with guys like Kobe, Allen Iverson, T-Mac, Vince Carter and all pretty much doing most of the damage from the wings with drives, layups and ISO's.

In that situation, a dominant big guy is far more effective then he is today.
Being a 4 without being able to shoot the 3 is blasphamy now. Big towers like Mozgov, Drummond, Howard, Hibbert and the likes are constantly being drawn out of the paint in order to protect their guys, leaving them wide open.

Would it be sacriligous to say that Ben Wallace doesn't win 4x DOPY if his prime happens between 2013-2017?

There's a reason the last two DOPY went to a SF and the runner up was a stretch 4 who can run the floor like a guard and is basically 6'7 with shoes.
As long as the league is continuing with this space and pace trend I don't see Drummond getting the Kudos he deserves Or will deserve.

In the 2000s Drummond does not finish 10th in DOPY voting.

[iamgine]

I already mentioned that I would be willing to pick him first among true Centers.
However, consider you have a top 10 pick for instance, and you choose Wallace first and fill up the squad with good/ok players, such like that (random example, complete made up just to make that point)

Rubio
Korver
Parsons
Anderson
Wallace

and compare that to for example

Rubio
Korver
Leonard/George
Anderson
Pachulia

I would be inclined to say, that the second team has better chances of advancing far (and the players in first team are all rather ok players for what you might really get in a redraft).

This is why I would draft him first round only when all top offensive players or offensive/defensive stars are already gone. Elite offense talent is much harder to come by than defense, because with the right schemes and team work you can make up on desense easier imo.
Well I guess for me it's just tempting to see what would happen :P. Obviously with Ben you don't draft players like Rubio but someone more scoring minded like...say Isaiah Thomas or even Reggie Jackson. With Big Ben around the rim, it would be much easier to pick someone like Enes Kanter who's great offensively.

[iamgine]

Probably not.

But hear me out.
Back in the early 2000's it appears as though the league was more ISO Heavy with guys like Kobe, Allen Iverson, T-Mac, Vince Carter and all pretty much doing most of the damage from the wings with drives, layups and ISO's.

In that situation, a dominant big guy is far more effective then he is today.
Being a 4 without being able to shoot the 3 is blasphamy now. Big towers like Mozgov, Drummond, Howard, Hibbert and the likes are constantly being drawn out of the paint in order to protect their guys, leaving them wide open.

Would it be sacriligous to say that Ben Wallace doesn't win 4x DOPY if his prime happens between 2013-2017?

There's a reason the last two DOPY went to a SF and the runner up was a stretch 4 who can run the floor like a guard and is basically 6'7 with shoes.
As long as the league is continuing with this space and pace trend I don't see Drummond getting the Kudos he deserves Or will deserve.

In the 2000s Drummond does not finish 10th in DOPY voting.
You might be right but I always think defense is not about stats. To me, someone like Yao Ming was a DPOY defender even though his stats don't show it much. His presence and length has altered so many shots and discourage teams from getting easy shots.

I agree though that the league are changing and if bigs can shoot 3s with high enough rate, then clearly a rim protector would be much less useful because he'll just get drawn out.