Agree or disagree: CP3 was the most complete PG ever.

[ClipperRevival]

I didn't say highest peak or best career or anything else. I said most "complete". I look at his game and I can't think of one legit weakness. Only one I can think of was his height but he had no control over that. Maybe his lack of "clutch" at times but that's not really a breakdown of his basketball game.

Thoughts?

[keep-itreal]

Maybe his lack of "clutch" at times but that's not really a breakdown of his basketball game.

how convenient :rolleyes:

[ClipperRevival]

how convenient :rolleyes:

This is more of a breakdown of his bball game. If you want to factor in clutch, that's fine. If you disagree, who do you have?

[TrueBlue89]

Agreed. He's the most talented PG of all time plain & simple.

Handles, ball protection, efficiency, high IQ, defense, midrange game, 3 point shot, finishing, leadership etc. He has it all.

[Kblaze8855]

Well...

Outside shooting, midrange shooting, attacking the basket, pick and roll scoring and passing, entry passing, lobs, handles....he can guard everyone he should be reasonably expected to...and some he shouldnt. Hes like a 5 time steals leader...so he can play the passing lanes. Hes one of the leagues best leaders from a vocal standpoint....teammates play hard for him. He can rebound...he can play any tempo. One of the best in the open floor or the halfcourt game. He calls plays well id say. Always seems his teams get a good look after say...an offensive rebound and kickout when he calls for a different set.

Hes about as complete as it gets. But im not sure hes any more complete than a few others. I would say...nobody checks more boxes. Some just excel more in this area or that one.

Not many who have his offense are also as good on defense. And the few who are clearly better defenders(Payton....Frazier...couple others) dont tend to have the playmaking.

You could argue Payton was a notch or two behind Paul as playmaker but more than a notch ahead as a defender. And Payton rebounded his ass off. Worse shooter though. Better post player.

Both of them hard to top far as having the total game in the last 20 years.

[Young X]

Agree.

You could take a major part of his game away and he would still be an all-star caliber player.

Take away his passing and he's Kyle Lowry level.

Take away his scoring and he's Rondo level.

Take away his defense and he's prime D-Will level.

Take away his efficiency and he's Wall level.

[PP34Deuce]

He's a great example of a very athletic PG that matured his game.

I remember his first 3 years in the league. dunking on people occasionally and was very quick.

He's molded his offensive game into an old man style and is still a 20 PPG scorer while dishing out assists and rebounds. He's very skilled.

[BlakFrankWhite]

i guess so, but he's just lacked that killer instinct..call it "a set of balls in the big moments" that guys like Westbrook or Kyrie do.

He's more like a KD...awesome in 3.5 quarters, but can't be trusted with in the clutch nor is willing to step up.

[ClipperRevival]

Well...

Outside shooting, midrange shooting, attacking the basket, pick and roll scoring and passing, entry passing, lobs, handles....he can guard everyone he should be reasonably expected to...and some he shouldnt. Hes like a 5 time steals leader...so he can play the passing lanes. Hes one of the leagues best leaders from a vocal standpoint....teammates play hard for him. He can rebound...he can play any tempo. One of the best in the open floor or the halfcourt game. He calls plays well id say. Always seems his teams get a good look after say...an offensive rebound and kickout when he calls for a different set.

Hes about as complete as it gets. But im not sure hes any more complete than a few others. I would say...nobody checks more boxes. Some just excel more in this area or that one.

Not many who have his offense are also as good on defense. And the few who are clearly better defenders(Payton....Frazier...couple others) dont tend to have the playmaking.

You could argue Payton was a notch or two behind Paul as playmaker but more than a notch ahead as a defender. And Payton rebounded his ass off. Worse shooter though. Better post player.

Both of them hard to top far as having the total game in the last 20 years.

Don't forget his back to the basket game, which he will go to when he has guys similar in size guarding him, which isn't often.

And in terms of just playing defense, I don't think he takes a back seat to anyone. Obviously, guys like Payton, Frazier and Kidd were taller and longer so they had a NATURAL advantage. So in that sense, you have to give them the nod. But in terms of just playing D, he was about as good as it gets. I've seen this guy literally force a steal when he wanted too after making a bad play several times. He had that type of on the ball D ability.

Payton was pretty complete but CP3 clearly had the edge in passing, ability to break down defenders, TO/assist ratio, efficiency, shooting (midrange and 3) and FT shooting. So I don't think it's close to be honest.

[Kool Boy]

I didn't say highest peak or best career or anything else. I said most "complete". I look at his game and I can't think of one legit weakness. Only one I can think of was his height but he had no control over that. Maybe his lack of "clutch" at times but that's not really a breakdown of his basketball game.

Thoughts?
He's short, Tyreke Evans is more complete, he just needs a slightly better jumpshot

[Kblaze8855]

Paul is such an odd case to me. I suspect ive seen him hit more foul line jumpers under pressure than almost anyone in the last 10 years but people seem to genuinely not remember them happening. That guy is always hitting someone with a stepback or stop on a dime jumper from 16 feet to take or extend the lead late. The way people talk you would think hes afraid to take the shot.

[ClipperRevival]

He's short, Tyreke Evans is more complete, he just needs a slightly better jumpshot

:roll: What is it with you and Evans? Are you his mother or something?

[Kool Boy]

:roll: What is it with you and Evans? Are you his mother or something?
He's my favorite player and he's so disrespected

[ralph_i_el]

He's short, Tyreke Evans is more complete, he just needs a slightly better jumpshot

:facepalm Tyreke has a trash J and can only finish with one hand. If opponents read the scouting report he gets shut down. Has he ever even played in the playoffs?

Don't put him in the same sentence as CP3.


Tyreke's stats in the playoffs (where teams actually give a damn):

4 games, 31 mpg
10ppg, 5apg, 5rpg
33% shooting
18% 3p shooting

ugly

Fantastic athlete with a great handle, and no polish to any other part of his game. He's essentially a 16 year old LeBron.

[DaHeezy]

I'd go with Stockton as the most complete. In terms of the skillset PG's in particular should possess I'd say Stockton did a slightly better job

[SamuraiSWISH]

Agree.

You could take a major part of his game away and he would still be an all-star caliber player.

Take away his passing and he's Kyle Lowry level.

Take away his scoring and he's Rondo level.

Take away his defense and he's prime D-Will level.

Take away his efficiency and he's Wall level.
Truth.

Not only that but he's a smarter player then all those guys, a better leader, and a forgotten asset ... he's coachable.

He quarterbacks a team offensively like Kidd or Nash. He's the most complete PG I've ever seen. One of the best too. Followed closely by Kidd, Payton, Zeke.

[NBAGOAT]

yes. There are just not many pg's who even have his combination of scoring/playmaking. Also he's an excellent floor general and offensive anchor and plays well with a lot of different type players.

[jayfan]

He's the least accomplished player who's considered great of all time.





.

[Kblaze8855]

He's the least accomplished player who's considered great of all time.





.

Pistol Pete.

[jayfan]

Pistol Pete.

Pete's up there, but people are placing Paul on a higher level than him.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's the least accomplished player who's considered great of all time.





.
From team accomplishments? Maybe. Don't act like that's exclusively his own fault.

But he had a legit strong argument for MVP in Kobe's last prime season, LeBron's first prime season, and KG's last prime season where he led his team to 67 wins.

This was a more competitive race among all time greats than Curry's of the past two seasons. By far.

As well as the following 2009 season where LeBron and Wade had peak level seasons as well to compete against him.

If you're starting a franchise and don't have Klay Thompson, Kevin Durant, Iguodala, and Draymond Green ... who in their right mind is taking Curry over CP3?!

[Kblaze8855]

From team accomplishments? Maybe.

Nah. Not even maybe. People just dont know much about history but insist on using terms like "Of all time" and "ever" for emphasis they cant back up.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Hell No he's not.

[jayfan]

Nah. Not even maybe. People just dont know much about history but insist on using terms like "Of all time" and "ever" for emphasis they cant back up.

I call bs. Name one player who's been pushed into the conversation of goat at their position who was/is less accomplished than Chris Paul.



.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's a great example of a very athletic PG that matured his game.
Very athletic?

He was just way quicker before the injuries. He was still a floor based, super skilled and crafty PG.

He didn't have blinding speed like Rose or Wall. He didn't have explosion like Russ. And he didn't have hops like a Francis, B Diddy, or Rose.

[Nick Young]

I didn't say highest peak or best career or anything else. I said most "complete". I look at his game and I can't think of one legit weakness. Only one I can think of was his height but he had no control over that. Maybe his lack of "clutch" at times but that's not really a breakdown of his basketball game.

Thoughts?
His lack of clutchness and tendency to consistently choke on the biggest stage is what's held him back.


For my money, Tony Parker and John Stockton are the most complete PGs ever.


Tony Parker has won titles, he has a well deserved FMVP and he has consistently been great.


In terms of being a "pure PG" I would say Jason Kidd is the best ever.

Stockton had a lot of steals but was not a great defender. Peak Tony Parker is (was) a better defender than peak Stockton.




CP3 is overrated. I have watched him choke away important playoff games for his entire career. He has been surrounded by talent on the Clippers and consistently underperforms in the biggest games.


Tony Parker>CP3

That's right. I said it. I spoke the truth.

[Kblaze8855]

I call bs. Name one player who's been pushed into the argument of goat at their position who was/is less accomplished than Chris Paul.

For one....you said:


He's the least accomplished player who's considered great of all time.

There are thousands of miles between "Considered great" and "Pushed into the argument for GOAT at their position". George Gervin is an all time great. Nobody is saying hes better than Jordan.

Second....

The list of people to make an honest argument that Paul is greater than Magic is...if not literally nonexistent....effectively non existent.

Third....

Chris Paul is like a 10 time all star, 8 time all NBA, 8 time all D team, 5 time steals leader, 4-5 time assist leader and an MVP runner up. A resume that totally laps those of several people in the hall of fame. So the accomplishments you speak on him lacking must mean playoff winning. Which hes hardly come up short on even by great player standards.

Oscar Robertson won 2 playoff series in his career as a teams best player.

Pistol Pete never won one and never even made an NCAA tournament.

Dave Bing and Bob Lanier played together and didnt do shit till each left for teams that were contenders without them.

The list of guys who breezed into the hall of fame and were and are considered great....who won no more than Paul? Its long and noteworthy. Especially if you dont count the Mitch Richmond style end of career technically won but didnt play a key role success. Speaking of which....Mitch Richmond won what exactly?

Chris Paul is pretty much a run of the mill normal hall of famer far as career success....but he has the accolades to make the HOF two times over and hes still in or near his prime.

Better players than Chris Paul didnt have any more success as a teams best player. Now....you open it up to sidekicks and just on the roster guys? Ok.

But I dont think you are talking about Bob Mcadoo on the Lakers here.

As a teams key player?

Paul is on a pretty normal HOF rate of winning. Better than that really.

People assume a lot of great players won a lot more than they did.

[Father Prime]

Did someone just say Tony Parker > CP3? At making music videos maybe but not at basketball. Nice try.

[tpols]

For my money, Tony Parker and John Stockton are the most complete PGs ever.


:biggums:


im a big tony parker fan... but just, no.

[Kblaze8855]

Did someone just say Tony Parker > CP3? At making music videos maybe but not at basketball. Nice try.


I decided to go the "If you see trolling ignore it" route once I saw him list Parker as the most complete point of all time.

[tamaraw08]

I didn't say highest peak or best career or anything else. I said most "complete". I look at his game and I can't think of one legit weakness. Only one I can think of was his height but he had no control over that. Maybe his lack of "clutch" at times but that's not really a breakdown of his basketball game.

Thoughts?

I have been hoping for this guy to succeed to shut up his detractors for the last 3 years now. I was very happy when his Clips eliminated GSW, beat the Spurs etc but what bothers is tendency to get injured and/or get tired in the playoffs.
The Houston debacle a couple of years back esp when they got clobbered in game 7 was inexcusable IMO.
They say the best ability in AVailABILITY.

[Kool Boy]

:facepalm Tyreke has a trash J and can only finish with one hand. If opponents read the scouting report he gets shut down. Has he ever even played in the playoffs?

Don't put him in the same sentence as CP3.


Tyreke's stats in the playoffs (where teams actually give a damn):

4 games, 31 mpg
10ppg, 5apg, 5rpg
33% shooting
18% 3p shooting

ugly

Fantastic athlete with a great handle, and no polish to any other part of his game. He's essentially a 16 year old LeBron.

much stronger and better body than 16 year LeBron. He more like a 6'6'' version of current LeBron.

[jayfan]

For one....you said:



There are thousands of miles between "Considered great" and "Pushed into the argument for GOAT at their position". George Gervin is an all time great. Nobody is saying hes better than Jordan.

Second....

The list of people to make an honest argument that Paul is greater than Magic is...if not literally nonexistent....effectively non existent.

Third....

Chris Paul is like a 10 time all star, 8 time all NBA, 8 time all D team, 5 time steals leader, 4-5 time assist leader and an MVP runner up. A resume that totally laps those of several people in the hall of fame. So the accomplishments you speak on him lacking must mean playoff winning. Which hes hardly come up short on even by great player standards.

Oscar Robertson won 2 playoff series in his career as a teams best player.

Pistol Pete never won one and never even made an NCAA tournament.

Dave Bing and Bob Lanier played together and didnt do shit till each left for teams that were contenders without them.

The list of guys who breezed into the hall of fame and were and are considered great....who won no more than Paul? Its long and noteworthy. Especially if you dont count the Mitch Richmond style end of career technically won but didnt play a key role success. Speaking of which....Mitch Richmond won what exactly?

Chris Paul is pretty much a run of the mill normal hall of famer far as career success....but he has the accolades to make the HOF two times over and hes still in or near his prime.

Better players than Chris Paul didnt have any more success as a teams best player. Now....you open it up to sidekicks and just on the roster guys? Ok.

But I dont think you are talking about Bob Mcadoo on the Lakers here.

As a teams key player?

Paul is on a pretty normal HOF rate of winning. Better than that really.

People assume a lot of great players won a lot more than they did.

When I said great, I meant an all-time great. And of course, not even the most ardant CP3 stans would honestly argue that he's above Magic.

How about this, I'll give you tangible parameters....

No player in the conversation for top 5-oat at their position has accomplished less than Chris Paul.


* Oscar's a good try, but he has a ring (in his 11th season. Paul is entering his 12th), a second finals appearance, and 2 final four appearances. Even individually, he eclipses Paul in every individual accolade/category minus all defensive team. He also has a league mvp and 2 or 3 college poy's.

.

[bizil]

When u combine scoring, passing, and defense as a package, CP3, Payton, and Frazier are the top three of all time. I think u could argue any of them as the most complete of all time. Payton and Frazier were more versatile defensively and could defend PG, SG, and even some SF's. BUT CP's handles and passing ability were superior.

So when u factor fundamental skill level on top of the scoring-passing-defense package, then YES CP3 is the most complete PG ever. If u throw versatility on top of the scoring-passing-defense package then Payton or Frazier is the most complete PG ever.

[ralph_i_el]

much stronger and better body than 16 year LeBron. He more like a 6'6'' version of current LeBron.

18 year old LeBron had 20lbs on CURRENT Tyreke Evans....and was probably as good of a shooter.

Tyreke Evans has way worse BBiQ than LeBron. LeBron is as good a finisher with his left hand than Tyreke is with his right.


Tyreke is a very average player who does not belong in this conversation at all. He had a great rookie year as the lead guard on a bad team, because teams didn't really prepare for the bum-ass Kings. Once teams found out he couldn't shoot and had no left hand he was a role player.

Tyreke Evans is a decent point-forward. He can dribble and pass, and is an excellent athlete. His game is severely limited. Teams know that he always wants to get to the rim, and he still rarely goes left.


Look at how much trouble Wall has scoring (In a set-up offense). Wall has an excellent left hand, and a better J than Tyreke. That tells you what you need to know about Tyreke.

[Young X]

Every young, aspiring point guard should study Chris Paul.

Start with his game 1 against the Lakers in 2011 and go from there.

Look at how under control he plays, how patient he is, how he uses his teammates, how he tricks/manipulates defenders. It gets no better.

Look at this game for example against the Bulls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mipe7xKxPss

Passing, ballhandling, shooting, slashing, steals. It's all there.

[meat]

When u combine scoring, passing, and defense as a package, CP3, Payton, and Frazier are the top three of all time. I think u could argue any of them as the most complete of all time. Payton and Frazier were more versatile defensively and could defend PG, SG, and even some SF's. BUT CP's handles and passing ability were superior.

So when u factor fundamental skill level on top of the scoring-passing-defense package, then YES CP3 is the most complete PG ever. If u throw versatility on top of the scoring-passing-defense package then Payton or Frazier is the most complete PG ever.

Magic being one of the best PGs ever, then filling in for Kareem and going 42-15-7 in the playoffs. That's versatility.

[Nick Young]

Did someone just say Tony Parker > CP3? At making music videos maybe but not at basketball. Nice try.
How many rings and finals appearances does Tony Parker have?
How many finals MVPs does Parker have?

Ask yourself those same questions about CP3.


When Tony Parker gained a solid consistent midrange jump shot, he became one of the most unguardable PGs of all time.


No one can argue with his record and his accomplishments.

One point guard has one of highest winning percentages of the past 20 years and is one of the leaders in rings won among current active NBA players.

The other point guard is Chris Paul.

[Kool Boy]

18 year old LeBron had 20lbs on CURRENT Tyreke Evans....and was probably as good of a shooter.

Tyreke Evans has way worse BBiQ than LeBron. LeBron is as good a finisher with his left hand than Tyreke is with his right.


Tyreke is a very average player who does not belong in this conversation at all. He had a great rookie year as the lead guard on a bad team, because teams didn't really prepare for the bum-ass Kings. Once teams found out he couldn't shoot and had no left hand he was a role player.

Tyreke Evans is a decent point-forward. He can dribble and pass, and is an excellent athlete. His game is severely limited. Teams know that he always wants to get to the rim, and he still rarely goes left.


Look at how much trouble Wall has scoring (In a set-up offense). Wall has an excellent left hand, and a better J than Tyreke. That tells you what you need to know about Tyreke.

you obviously don't keep up with Tyreke. He is listed as 220 but he's 235-240. He's 2 inches shorter than LeBron so he has more girth per pound. Also, I've watched Tyreke since he was in high school and his left hand is very good (just shows how people assume things about him without watching). Also Tyreke shot 38% from three last year, he's a better shooter than Wall.

[bizil]

Magic being one of the best PGs ever, then filling in for Kareem and going 42-15-7 in the playoffs. That's versatility.

I was talking about PG's who combine scoring, passing, and defense THE BEST!! Paul, Frazier, and Payton are the top 3 of all time in that regard. I was commenting on Frazier and Payton BEING MORE VERSATILE on defense than CP3 because of size.

In terms of positional versatility and stuffing a stat sheet, Magic IS the most versatile PG of all time. And in general Magic is the best PG of all time. But I WASN'T talking about that. I was talking about guys who combine scoring, passing, and defense the best. Magic DOESN'T fit in that equation!

[Smoke117]

Stockton had a lot of steals but was not a great defender. Peak Tony Parker is (was) a better defender than peak Stockton.

CP3 is overrated. I have watched him choke away important playoff games for his entire career. He has been surrounded by talent on the Clippers and consistently underperforms in the biggest games.


Tony Parker>CP3

That's right. I said it.

This is the kind of stupid shit that makes everyone think you're a moron.

[jayfan]

This is the kind of stupid shit that makes everyone think you're a moron.

The only thing in bold that's moronic is the Tony Parker comparison. The 3 sentences before it are legitimate.

.

[Smoke117]

The only thing in bold that's moronic is the Tony Parker comparison. The 3 sentences before it are legitimate.

.

Only someone who never actually watched John Stockton, but in highlight and youtube videos would say Tony Parker was a better defensive player. Calling Tony Parker the most complete pg ever is just plain laughable.

[AirBonner]

Steve Nash was better.

[j3lademaster]

Well, his "lack of height" never prevented him from being an effective defender and good rebounder for his position, so I'm going to have to agree with you. He does everything at least well and is elite at the most important facet of the position- playmaking and leadership.

[fourkicks44]

Well, his "lack of height" never prevented him from being an effective defender and good rebounder for his position, so I'm going to have to agree with you. He does everything at least well and is elite at the most important facet of the position- playmaking and leadership.

Statistically it has to be Oscar Roberston. Obviously a touch before my time, so I have seen limited footage. But in terms of a complete PG it is hard to argue against him

[FKAri]

I agree. His best days are certainly behind him and the injury he suffered was unfortunate.

i guess so, but he's just lacked that killer instinct..call it "a set of balls in the big moments" that guys like Westbrook or Kyrie do.

He's more like a KD...awesome in 3.5 quarters, but can't be trusted with in the clutch nor is willing to step up.
Is this a joke?? :lol
I assume you're not trolling because you're a thunder fan.

Westbrook has choked away countless games. He's one of the absolute worst clutch performers. His decision making, shot selection, and game management is already terrible but it reaches a new low in high pressure situations. Last season he showed improvement in this but ultimately failed to close a 3-1 lead.

[ralph_i_el]

you obviously don't keep up with Tyreke. He is listed as 220 but he's 235-240. He's 2 inches shorter than LeBron so he has more girth per pound. Also, I've watched Tyreke since he was in high school and his left hand is very good (just shows how people assume things about him without watching). Also Tyreke shot 38% from three last year, he's a better shooter than Wall.

He ia definitely not as good a shooter as Wall. That 38% was WAY higher than his career numbers and it came in only 25 games. Evans shoots more spot up/assisted J's. Wall shot more J's per game, in 3x as many games as Tyreke played last year....at 35%. Many of them were off the dribble.

His left hand has finally gotten to average (in his prime) you can go back and watch video from his Sacramento years.....many many contortions to try and finish right handed when he should have gone left.

How else do you explain the drop off from his rookie season?


Evans obviously is a great athlete, and has an excellent handle. He's large and strong. If he actually had a good shot and left hand he would be scoring 20+ ppg easy. He doesn't. Wall scores 20ppg with a great left hand and a bad J. Tyreke scores 14ppg because his left hand sucks and so does his J.

[Pointguard]

I don't have anybody over CP3 in completeness but Kidd isn't second to him. Mainly because in the biggest responsibilities like making others better and over achievers he's noticeably better, along with clarity of what to do, when to get the right players involved, making chemistry work and controlling the game, Kidd is better than CP3. He's also a better leader and is more in command at critical times.

[inclinerator]

prime cp3 was unstoppable

[SamuraiSWISH]

I don't have anybody over CP3 in completeness but Kidd isn't second to him. Mainly because in the biggest responsibilities like making others better and over achievers he's noticeably better, along with clarity of what to do, when to get the right players involved, making chemistry work and controlling the game, Kidd is better than CP3. He's also a better leader and is more in command at critical times.
Chris Paul's abilities as a scorer and shooter are superior to the minuscule if any difference in team command. Which I personally don't believe to be true.

Paul is better in the half court and Kidd better pushing tempo in transition.

And don't sit here like these other guys in the thread and act like CP3 isn't clutch. Because he is ... see willing the Clippers to victory over the Spurs while being totally hurt ala Zeke in the 2015 playoffs. Kidd never did anything like that ever.

CP3 however could take the Nets to the Finals in that weak ass Eastern Conference of the early 2000s.

[iamgine]

I agree.

[Smoke117]

Chris Paul's abilities as a scorer and shooter are superior to the minuscule if any difference in team command. Which I personally don't believe to be true.

Paul is better in the half court and Kidd better pushing tempo in transition.

And don't sit here like these other guys in the thread and act like CP3 isn't clutch. Because he is ... see willing the Clippers to victory over the Spurs while being totally hurt ala Zeke in the 2015 playoffs. Kidd never did anything like that ever.

CP3 however could take the Nets to the Finals in that weak ass Eastern Conference of the early 2000s.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Z2S7XOJkRTENG/giphy.gif

[Doranku]

I agree. His best days are certainly behind him and the injury he suffered was unfortunate.

Is this a joke?? :lol
I assume you're not trolling because you're a thunder fan.

Westbrook has choked away countless games. He's one of the absolute worst clutch performers. His decision making, shot selection, and game management is already terrible but it reaches a new low in high pressure situations. Last season he showed improvement in this but ultimately failed to close a 3-1 lead.

lol you realize CP3 also choked away a 3-1 lead, right? Against a much, MUCH worse team than the 2016 Warriors.

Not to mention he didn't even play in the first two games where his team was able to steal HCA away from the Rockets without him.

[SamuraiSWISH]

https://media.giphy.com/media/Z2S7XOJkRTENG/giphy.gif
Epic usage, bro

[avonbarksdale]

I agree. His best days are certainly behind him and the injury he suffered was unfortunate.

Is this a joke?? :lol
I assume you're not trolling because you're a thunder fan.

Westbrook has choked away countless games. He's one of the absolute worst clutch performers. His decision making, shot selection, and game management is already terrible but it reaches a new low in high pressure situations. Last season he showed improvement in this but ultimately failed to close a 3-1 lead.

you do realize cp3 choked away a 3-1 lead to the rockets 2 years ago right?

[avonbarksdale]

not even trying to troll

i would think the most complete pg ever could lead a team to at least the conference finals

to me that is just case closed, he has always been surrounded by talent and cant get it done when it matters

[iamgine]

As I look at the stats, it seems to me that his teammates were always the ones who didn't perform when they lost. CP3 always perform well stat-wise. It's crazy how this happens.

[Pointguard]

Chris Paul's abilities as a scorer and shooter are superior to the minuscule if any difference in team command. Which I personally don't believe to be true.
Westbrook totally took the game out of CP's command. And Westbrook is a wild player hardly the type to command a game. CP actually played a faster tempo, with a big lead and time running out, and this happened frequently with the Clippers. http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-chris-paul-clippers-killer-mentality-20141105-story.html



Paul is better in the half court and Kidd better pushing tempo in transition. Paul never ran a half court team better than Kidd did in Dallas.

And there is no excuse for that. Kidd could win six rounds in the playoffs with one superb athlete and almost nothing else. CP3 has two freak athletes who are among the best athletes at their positions. Why was Kidd better in transition?



And don't sit here like these other guys in the thread and act like CP3 isn't clutch. Because he is ... see willing the Clippers to victory over the Spurs while being totally hurt ala Zeke in the 2015 playoffs. Kidd never did anything like that ever.
Didn't have too but he did have a very similar feat anyway. Kidd took a last place team to the finals two years straight. And if he wasn't hurt the third year they make it three years straight - Kidd played a heroic role in nearly beating the world champion Piston's hurt - it still went to seven games, with Kerry Kittles, Kieth Van Horn, Richard Jefferson, Todd McCollough and K Mart. Nobody approaching anything in a top ten ten list at all or making any teams. The first year nobody averaged over 15ppg. Nobody averaged 8 rebounds on the team. Todd McCullough was the player getting 20 mins or more that shot over 47%. Only Kittles could sometimes get off his own shot. The only athlete was Kmart. One, kind of, shooter in Kittles. A small team that played good team defense but had a bad first time coach.

By contrast CP has been playing on the best team possible for a PG for five years now. The most athletic bigs in the league by a huge margin - actually the best athletes at center and PF. A true stud that had better rookie numbers than Barkley, Dirk and Duncan at PF but only surpassed his rookie production once since CP arrived (by contrast Kmart, a smaller version of DJ, got a max deal out of getting his career numbers early in his career with Kidd), the best sixth man, a steady shooter, other creators, and a championship coach for most of CP's prime. Yet never got out of the second round and just recently lost a mind battle with the wild and willy Westbrook? I'm not feeling that.


CP3 however could take the Nets to the Finals in that weak ass Eastern Conference of the early 2000s.
Name me a PG that's had a better situation than CP? Name me a PG that did more than Kidd with such meager means? The Clippers seemingly can't win with CP3 as the best player but he's hindered the development of Blake. You should have a breakthrough after five years. Kidd did it the first year he had the reigns of a sucky team. Chris Paul has killed some great opportunities while Kidd has created them out of nothing.

[Smoke117]

Pointguard clearly was not watching the NBA in the early 2000s...only someone who didn't could go on about the Nets in the 2000s when that was by far the weakest era the NBA has ever seen as far as overall talent and competition. The funniest thing is he typed all that bullshit to say nothing...his ignorance makes him unable to understand what he's trying to run his mouth about.

[Pointguard]

Pointguard clearly was not watching the NBA in the early 2000s...only someone who didn't could go on about the Nets in the 2000s when that was by far the weakest era the NBA has ever seen as far as overall talent and competition. The funniest thing is he typed all that bullshit to say nothing...his ignorance makes him unable to understand what he's trying to run his mouth about.
Your name should be Joke117. At some point you should start taking the integrity of your post as something to stand by. And I'm serious about that. You never back up anything you say. You aren't a child. And too many post like this one are getting you on your stupid rants.

Its professional ball in early 2000 with HOFers and alltime greats Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, KG, Dirk along with Pierce, Allen, Webber, Nash and Iverson all having some of their best years and your loser azzz thinking you on to something... . Payton, Stockton, Malone, Stoudamire all still contributing. If your dumbazz thinks it's easy to win eight series in the three years with that crew at any time you're an idiot but that's where we begin with you anyway.

[Young X]

By contrast CP has been playing on the best team possible for a PG for five years now. The most athletic bigs in the league by a huge margin - actually the best athletes at center and PF.He's had the Clippers as the #1 offense for 2 years (2014 and 2015) and top 4 in 2012 and 2013.

Since he's joined the Clippers they've been the best offense over that time period.

What the hell else do you want from a small point guard?

You want him to grab 7+ boards a game? You want him to protect the paint? You want him to defend wings? You want him to miraculously stop the team from struggling when he's on the bench? You want him to somehow keep the team healthy?

The only thing you can ask of him is to run the offense and defend his position and he does both extremely well.

[Pointguard]

He's had the Clippers as the #1 offense for 2 years (2014 and 2015) and top 4 in 2012 and 2013.

Since he's joined the Clippers they've been the best offense over that time period.

What the hell else do you from a small point guard?

You want him to grab 7+ boards a game? You want him to protect the paint? You want him to defend wings? You want him to miraculously stop the team from struggling when he's on the bench? You want him to somehow keep the team healthy?

The only thing you can ask of him is to run the offense and defend his position and he does both extremely well.

What I want from him? To outsmart younger Westbrook and slow the game down when he has a big lead with 1 minute to go. I want him to not let an undisciplined team like Houston dictate pace when they are down 3 to 1 against the Clippers. I want him to maximize Blake Griffin who is too close to underachieving. When he has the number 1 offense, he should get critical possessions in the playoffs better than he has done.

Chris is great. I'm just saying, comparatively, Kidd has made something out of nothing. Even in 2011 when super teams were around he did these things with excellence.

[Young X]

^ Kidd "made something out of nothing" playing in the early 00's east. One of, if not the least competitive conference in league history.

He wasn't beating good teams. He was beating teams who's best players were Baron Davis (who I loved but just being real) and Jamal Mashburn.

He was facing nothing but mediocre, sub 50 win teams, while Chris has never faced a sub 50 win team ever. Two totally different situations.

[Young X]

When Kidd was in the west where there were actually good/great teams, his playoff record was even worse than Chris'.

Then the next year he gets traded to the east and he suddenly goes to the finals b2b after not even getting past the 1st round the 7 years before that. Go figure.

[Pointguard]

^ Kidd "made something out of nothing" playing in the early 00's east. One of, if not the least competitive conference in league history.

He wasn't beating good teams. He was beating teams who's best players were Baron Davis (who I loved but just being real) and Jamal Mashburn.

He was facing nothing but mediocre, sub 50 win teams, while Chris has never faced a sub 50 win team ever. Two totally different situations.
I understand but he was consistently operating with nothing and kept his team high and over achieving. 5 years with a good team you should have a breakthrough year. And a couple of years, it was on how CP mismanged the team play. CP's teams maxed out at the second round with very good players and the number one offense. Kidd's team were killing the minimum of the finals with bad players. While Kidd wasn't the best player on Dallas he did the max at the PG spot and didn't have CP moments of losing control of games and series.

[AintNoSunshine]

I agree. The older generational guards were not as good of a shooter, Payton, Kidd, Magic.

Stockton not as good of an overall scorer.

Nash not a good defender tho Paul is good but not great.

Cuckry not nearly as good at running offense.

[Pointguard]

When Kidd was in the west where there were actually good/great teams, his playoff record was even worse than Chris'.

Then the next year he gets traded to the east and he suddenly goes to the finals b2b after not even getting past the 1st round the 7 years before that. Go figure.

He didn't have free reign on those teams in the West before going to the Nets. The owner liked Penny Hardaway better and Kidd had like the seventh highest usage rate on the team the year before he left and not much higher the last year. When he joined the Nets he was given free reign. Scott let him do as he pleased and gave the reigns to him.

[FKAri]

There's 2 types of posters on this board:

Those who underrate CP and Kidd while overrating Nash
Those who underrate CP and Nash while overrating Kidd

[ILLsmak]

Paul is such an odd case to me. I suspect ive seen him hit more foul line jumpers under pressure than almost anyone in the last 10 years but people seem to genuinely not remember them happening. That guy is always hitting someone with a stepback or stop on a dime jumper from 16 feet to take or extend the lead late. The way people talk you would think hes afraid to take the shot.

Cuz he always loses in the end. haha.

As a PG, your team has to win. That's a measure of how good you are, fair or unfair.

Paul is a beast, but he's overrated. He's not 'the most complete PG of all time' as I define it. He's lost too much with good teams.

I feel like a lot of (all time) PGs could have done more with the situation he is in. He did well for awhile with Nola, but I feel like the league kinda gave them a little extra love because of Katrina.

-Smak

[tpols]

What the hell else do you want from a small point guard?

You want him to grab 7+ boards a game? You want him to protect the paint? You want him to defend wings?

that's all stuff kidd could do though.. thats the funny thing. J-Kidd did all that .. 7 boards wouldnt even be impressive for him when he was pulling double digits against Detroit.

[Young X]

that's all stuff kidd could do though.. thats the funny thing. J-Kidd did all that .. 7 boards wouldnt even be impressive for him when he was pulling double digits against Detroit.True, but he's nowhere near Chris as an offensive player.

I (and most people should) want an elite offensive PG who is a very good defender over a good, but flawed offensive PG who is a great defender.

[Kblaze8855]

As a PG, your team has to win. That's a measure of how good you are, fair or unfair.

So if the La Clippers stay in Buffalo and he has the Buffalo braves...and he is in the ECF before he plays a solid team instead of say....beating the defending champion spurs in the first round....

Hes better at basketball?

Is it more telling of your basketball ability to defeat a 42ish win Celtic team with Pierce/Walker and a gang of nobodies to make the conference finals....than to defeat the defending champs in 7 by personally hitting the game winner with a second left tied at 109?

We just um....being ****ing idiots around here?

[tpols]

True, but he's nowhere near Chris as an offensive player.

I (and most people should) want an elite offensive PG who is a very good defender over a good, but flawed offensive PG who is a great defender.

two types of offense imo .. individual and team. Kidd could control pace, set guys up, and make any dime just like Chris Paul.. what he couldnt do was score in isos like Paul can. But as others have mentioned CP3 tends to not use his ability to individually score when his team needs it most as much as he should.. for some reason. he's gone passive and choked too many times for my liking with that so thats why i give kidd a slight edge for being better everywhere else.

[Young X]

But as others have mentioned CP3 tends to not use his ability to individually score when his team needs it most as much as he should.. for some reason. he's gone passive and choked too many times for my liking with that so thats why i give kidd a slight edge for being better everywhere else.This isn't true. He's even more aggressive and scores more in the playoffs than in the regular season.

He's just too limited physically to consistently be a 27-30 point scorer like Kobe or Lebron or whoever.

But it's still much more than what Kidd brings on offense.

An example is in 2013 when Blake injured his ankle after game 4 against the Grizzlies. Chris averaged 32 in the next 2 games to try and make up for his absence.

But of course the Clippers couldn't keep up with the Grizzlies playing 1 on 5 so that means he "choked" and it was his fault they lost the series!

[tpols]

He's just too limited physically to consistently be a 27-30 point scorer like Kobe or Lebron or whoever.


that's why i like what Kidd brings to the table more .. chris paul's best / only attribute over him is still a notch below other guys. Kidd was much more "all around" and his impact in every facet he had strength in could always be counted on. size is often brought up but size matters a ton in basketball, and Kidd was a very big point guard. that being said i wouldnt mind if someone took paul over kidd, and i support the theory of conferences being in kidd's favor

[tamaraw08]

two types of offense imo .. individual and team. Kidd could control pace, set guys up, and make any dime just like Chris Paul.. what he couldnt do was score in isos like Paul can. But as others have mentioned CP3 tends to not use his ability to individually score when his team needs it most as much as he should.. for some reason. he's gone passive and choked too many times for my liking with that so thats why i give kidd a slight edge for being better everywhere else.

Great post, I agree with your comments. :rockon:
But you can't say that to every series he played tho like the one vs GSW and esp when he lead the Clips in beating the Spurs. It just seems to me that he doesn't have that physical stamina and mental fortitude to play great in all the series that he plays.

[iamgine]

I didn't really watch Jason Kidd but it seemed to me that he didn't have a jumper but were great at everything else and then some (rebound).

Nash at his prime I feel was the best out of the three. This is mainly due to the PG position is the least important in defense. But man he could break down the other team by himself. His offensive level is up there at the GOAT level for me.

CP3 is odd. His team fails year after year with him posting big numbers. He almost never have a bad game but yet there will be people in his team who post 1-8 and 1-9 shooting and they lost. I'm not sure why that is.

[FKAri]

lol you realize CP3 also choked away a 3-1 lead, right? Against a much, MUCH worse team than the 2016 Warriors.

Not to mention he didn't even play in the first two games where his team was able to steal HCA away from the Rockets without him.
I didn't mentioned CP. I just mentioned that Russ isn't the clutch God that poster was trying to contrast cp with.

[Young X]

I wanna say one more thing, it has nothing to do with the thread but I see so many people say he's a playoff underachiever.

Show me the years where his team underachieved.

2008: Lost to the Spurs who were slightly better
2009: Lost to the Nuggets who were clearly better
2011: Lost to the Lakers who were much better
2012: Lost to the Spurs who were much better
2014: Lost to the Thunder who were slightly better

2013 and 2016 were ruined because of injuries to himself and Griffin.

So that leaves 2015 against the Rockets where you could say his team lost to an "inferior" team.

And even then, they overachieved even getting past the defending champs in the first place. And they did it because of CP3 putting on a heroic performance which led to him getting injured and missing significant time in that Rockets series.

The critisicm he gets for this is bullshit. But most of y'all are stupid anyway.

[qrich]

If you were to take a list of 10 point guards, rank them all from 1-10 on various skills, Paul would be #1 by a decent margin imo

[Pointguard]

I want to make something clear here CP3 is great and I don't have anybody above him in terms of completeness. I mentioned Kidd as an equal because he never gets recognized for being a purest of PG's. Kidd, along with Magic, are the only two PG's that could domiate a game without scoring. Kidd could do that on a team that had no one scoring 15 ppg. And he was able to do that because of his pure PG skills. The other guys mentioned here aren't like that, Not Payton, not CP, not Nash. Kidd was handing out career years in ways those guys couldn't do as well. If you think that's over-rated you know nothing about the game.

Kidd could win consistently in the playoffs while being the gusto on a very limited team that fully allowed teams to focus on Kidd; Todd McCoullough, Kerry Kittles, Keith Van Horn, rookie Richard Jefferson, and Kmart were one of the top teams in the playoffs for two years. That team of beast was the most winning team in the playoffs over a two year period of time. You give Nash, CP, or Payton that team and I doubt they are competing in the East.

[Young X]

You give Nash, CP, or Payton that team and I doubt they are competing in the East.What teams do you think they would lose to?

[Pointguard]

What teams do you think they would lose to?
The Nets had Stephen Marbury instead of Kidd the previous year when they were in last place. Marbury was a score first pg but a premier scoring PG. Like 24ppg but still getting 8 assist per game. So the Kidd quality of being selfless was key to their turnaround. For whatever the distance of the EC being inferior which I agree with, the distance of Kidd having no players scoring 15ppg, no dependable shooters, no other star or first team players is a much bigger burden than the competition. Different teams have different schemes and the only person on the scouting report was J Kidd. Not Blake who should be a super duper star, not Crawford whom often took over games at the end, not Reddick who you can't leave on a double or DJ, who if you leave will cut to the rim for a dunk. That whole squad had an aspect that a PG dreams of having. That's a tremendous convenince. All Kidd had was smaller version of DJ.

For three years Kidd was far more consistent than any of the other guys mentioned in the thread. Far inferior players far inferior coach, an ill concieved team for a point guard (no consistent shooters, no stars, no creators, a new young coach unproven 12 years later, and only one finisher). Kidd's room for error was far smaller when he doesn't have much to begin with. CP had the number 1 offense in the league twice, that frequently blew leads at the end of the games. Which means they frequently mismanaged possessions and the clock at the end of games which we seen in the Houston series and OKC. Neither of which will be considered bright teams. When a player has that quality it is excerbated when you have inferior players and more pressure on the PG.

Kidd did not have that convenience at all. He won three straight series two years in a row without great pg compliments and assests. He out executed those teams at the end of games as he didn't have the arsonal to depend on. You don't get better at that because competition is weaker. The East was still more of a grind than out West at that point. Payton is the only one I see winning some in the playoffs with that Nets team.

[tpols]

jason kidd with blake and DJ would've been bananas ... kidd loved the lob, the alley oop .. saw it early with kenyon martin, saw it later with tyson chandler.. can only imagine the spectacle that would unfold with those two..

[Dray n Klay]

lol funny how kobestans started ripping on CP3 once the Laker trade was vetoed :oldlol:



Kinda reminds me of Laker fans hating on Jahlil Okafor to make themselves feel better about Dangelo :lol

[Crystallas]

By the criteria mentioned, CP3 is #2 on my list. Big O is #1.

[bizil]

As many of us know, being the most complete and being the best player two different things. While CP3 has a great case as the most complete PG ever, Magic is hands down the best PG ever and most versatile position wise. Big O was the most devastating on offense (passing and scoring as a package), Curry the most technically skilled (shooting, passing, handles as a package), and Westbrook is the most athletically gifted. Isiah was the best blend of speed, scoring, handles, and floor generalship.

When it comes to J Kidd, I think he has the BEST FLOOR GAME EVER! That means combining IQ, passing, defense, and, rebounding as a package. And Kidd was a walking triple double, on the Mt. Rushmore in that regard with Magic and Big O. And to top it off, he was bigger than most PG's and could defend PG, SG, and many SF's. So for these reasons, these are my top 6 PG's of all time PEAK WISE!

[ClipperRevival]

I wanna say one more thing, it has nothing to do with the thread but I see so many people say he's a playoff underachiever.

Show me the years where his team underachieved.

2008: Lost to the Spurs who were slightly better
2009: Lost to the Nuggets who were clearly better
2011: Lost to the Lakers who were much better
2012: Lost to the Spurs who were much better
2014: Lost to the Thunder who were slightly better

2013 and 2016 were ruined because of injuries to himself and Griffin.

So that leaves 2015 against the Rockets where you could say his team lost to an "inferior" team.

And even then, they overachieved even getting past the defending champs in the first place. And they did it because of CP3 putting on a heroic performance which led to him getting injured and missing significant time in that Rockets series.

The critisicm he gets for this is bullshit. But most of y'all are stupid anyway.

Even though I agree with most of your take on CP3 in that he is a GOAT level PG and simply amazing, he is not free of flaws in the playoffs. Since he came to LA, I have watched about 75-80% of all of his games, and probably watched every second of every playoff game.

And he definitely had situations late in the 4th, when the games were close, where he would kind of shell up and defer and/or just sit back. Sometimes you need your stars to take over when the offense isn't doing well. That's what stars do. Sitting back and deferring in those times HURTS the team.

I know the guy is ultra competitive and I think at times, that can hinder him at times because he overthinks. Like his GOAT level collapse against OKC. Or him deferring and not taking command of the team after his team went up 3-1 against Houston. I know he had injury issues but when he was on the court, he didn't impose his will at times.

There is definitely some validity to the notion that he had some choking moments. I think that's just being objective. Not hating at all.

[Pointguard]

Even though I agree with most of your take on CP3 in that he is a GOAT level PG and simply amazing, he is not free of flaws in the playoffs. Since he came to LA, I have watched about 75-80% of all of his games, and probably watched every second of every playoff game.

And he definitely had situations late in the 4th, when the games were close, where he would kind of shell up and defer and/or just sit back. Sometimes you need your stars to take over when the offense isn't doing well. That's what stars do. Sitting back and deferring in those times HURTS the team.

I know the guy is ultra competitive and I think at times, that can hinder him at times because he overthinks. Like his GOAT level collapse against OKC. Or him deferring and not taking command of the team after his team went up 3-1 against Houston. I know he had injury issues but when he was on the court, he didn't impose his will at times.

There is definitely some validity to the notion that he had some choking moments. I think that's just being objective. Not hating at all.

The wild thing is that I believe they have a chance this year, if Blake is where he should be and the star of the team. CP is great and complete. If he was used to good habits of controlling the game he doesn't have those OKC and Houston moments. And people don't talk about how underdeveloped Blake is. And, at times I wonder if CP knows Blake's strengths which should never be overlooked. But when you think about it, its small in comparison to the many, many things he does well.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The wild thing is that I believe they have a chance this year, if Blake is where he should be and the star of the team. CP is great and complete. If he was used to good habits of controlling the game he doesn't have those OKC and Houston moments. And people don't talk about how underdeveloped Blake is. And, at times I wonder if CP knows Blake's strengths which should never be overlooked. But when you think about it, its small in comparison to the many, many things he does well.

You're not the only one, PG. It may come off as a biased fanboy but IMO they're a Blake Griffin career year away from being serious threats to GSW.

If dude can up his game some, like I believe he will, there are tons of mismatches they can exploit. The only team LAC don't have much of an answer for are the Cavs, but that's mainly because of LeBron who they've never really been able to "stop".

A James Posey or Tayshuan Prince at their best would've been a perfect fit and probably gets them over the hump.

[ClipperRevival]

The SF position is what has held the Clips back the last 5 years. Before GSW this year, they arguably had the best starting 4 (CP3, DJ, Blake, Redick) in the game for years. They just needed that solid 3&D guy but could never find one. Gomes, Butler, Wesley, Green, Moute, etc. None of them panned out.

Sh*t, I don't even know who our starting 3 is this year. Wes obviously has the highest ceiling but that guy is as dumb as a box of rocks and Moute can defend but does nothing else. Still a huge weakness.

[Pointguard]

You're not the only one, PG. It may come off as a biased fanboy but IMO they're a Blake Griffin career year away from being serious threats to GSW.

If dude can up his game some, like I believe he will, there are tons of mismatches they can exploit. The only team LAC don't have much of an answer for are the Cavs, but that's mainly because of LeBron who they've never really been able to "stop".

A James Posey or Tayshuan Prince at their best would've been a perfect fit and probably gets them over the hump.
Yes, you are right on point. Blake should have the best post up game in the league four years ago. And then they don't miss the SF lacking as much as ClipperRevival and yourself are saying. It haunts them in so many ways to not have Blake where he should be. The wild end of games could be normalized as they really do act like, "what's our strength, again?" over and over for three years now.

[ClipperRevival]

Blake does have a very good back to the basket game. But his game goes AGAINST the core philosophy of the Clips, which is a lot of P&R and surrounding CP3 with shooters. That is more of a free flowing, spacing and in rhythm offense. When Blake holds the ball in the post for 10 seconds, that kind of goes against it.

That's why people have been arguing that DJ and Blake aren't the best fit because Blake doesn't space the floor but hangs out 17 feet and in, which prevent CP3 and DJ from running the P&R. The theory is that CP, DJ and a great wing player would make them better. And in that sense, I kind of agree.

Blake is sort of like Barkley imo. In a vacuum, a truly amazing talent who can impact the game in many ways. But in a team environment, his talents can kind of hinder a team at times. I don't think you can win a ring with him as "the man", posting up as the main clog in your offense. It's just not potent and efficient enough. Last year, Blake settled way too much for the long 2 instead using his natural talents like attacking the basket.

[Pointguard]

Blake does have a very good back to the basket game. But his game goes AGAINST the core philosophy of the Clips, which is a lot of P&R and surrounding CP3 with shooters. That is more of a free flowing, spacing and in rhythm offense. When Blake holds the ball in the post for 10 seconds, that kind of goes against it.

That's why people have been arguing that DJ and Blake aren't the best fit because Blake doesn't space the floor but hangs out 17 feet and in, which prevent CP3 and DJ from running the P&R. The theory is that CP, DJ and a great wing player would make them better. And in that sense, I kind of agree.

Blake is sort of like Barkley imo. In a vacuum, a truly amazing talent who can impact the game in many ways. But in a team environment, his talents can kind of hinder a team at times. I don't think you can win a ring with him as "the man", posting up as the main clog in your offense. It's just not potent and efficient enough. Last year, Blake settled way too much for the long 2 instead using his natural talents like attacking the basket.
In a wide open game his first year he showed what he could do in a more uptempo game. Only Lebron is a better big athlete than Blake. Blake used to gather himself quickly and make moves quick to the basket but that seems like the distant past. He developed this overthinking of the game. By now he should be more instinctual. Something Kidd and Magic are much better than Paul getting their players to do. The problem is partly the coach. KG was odd on the offense in Boston and KG was smart, experienced and versatile - weirdly enough in 2012 KG was able to make something of the offense. Doc, having been a PG does orient the game toward Paul. But if its not this year... .

[Annyong!]

Disagree