Revisiting Jordan's worst Finals (96')

[3ball]

.
Timeline:



Games 1-3: Jordan gets the Bulls a 3-0 lead by averaging 31 ppg on 46%.

Game 4: In the locker room before the game, Jordan tells a reporter (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAoaAb3Nc0&t=42m32s) that the 3-0 blowout lead has made him "more relaxed than he's ever been".. Not surprisingly, the vacation-planning Jordan gets held down by an adrenalized, pressure-free Payton who is trying to save some face.. But no one feels sorry for the 72-win Bulls and their 3-0 lead including the refs, who allow Payton to get away with everything (http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Michael%20Jordan/VS/Seattle%20Super%20Sonics/Gary%20Payton/-paymj.jpg).

Game 5: Jordan is 9-18 for 26 points, while his teammates are AIDS, namely Pippen, who musters 14 points on 5-20 (15 ppg on 34% for the entire series).

Game 6: Jordan's 22/9/7 leads the team, while holding Hawkins to 4 points, or 12 points below his average - this is significant, since the Bulls WON by 12, and everyone else let their man go off: Pippen let Schrempf get 23 points on 59%, Harper let Payton get 21 points on 70%, and Rodman let Kemp get 18/10 on 47%.. So Jordan's team-leading scoring, assists and defense was the hero of the game.


Overall averages: 27 ppg on 42%... This is far better than Lebron's worst Finals of 17 ppg in 2011, or 22 ppg on 36% in 2007... and also better than Kobe's 15 ppg on 35% in 2000, or his 2004.

[Smoke117]

1-9

[Milbuck]

Lebron leaves Cavs - 61 wins to 19 wins, 1st seed to dead last

Jordan retires - 2 win dropoff, champions to within 1 game of the conference finals

[3ball]

Lebron leaves Cavs - 61 wins to 19 wins, 1st seed to dead last

Jordan retires - 2 win dropoff, champions to within 1 game of the conference finals
Hmmm... So you've taken to trolling all of my threads and posts..

Rent free.. :facepalm

[Dray n Klay]

1-9


55 wins without Jordan (1994)



Gambling debts









Take your pick 3ball...

[LostCause]

Lebron leaves Cavs - 61 wins to 19 wins, 1st seed to dead last

Jordan retires - 2 win dropoff, champions to within 1 game of the conference finals

Jordan returns

72-10
69-13
62-20

Three rings in a row

Season he returned while rusty?

Bulls 34-31 (.523) w/o Jordan. That's on pace for a 43-win season
Bulls 13-4 (.765) w/Rusty Jordan. That's on pace for a 63-win season

Interesting thing is Jordan literally joined this team during the season. So the only real addition was himself. Bron left Cleveland along with many other big contributors as well as having a coaching change

You'd have to do a ton of mental gymnastics in Brons case, ignoring context altogether, to measure his sole impact on the teams record without him. Jordans impact on the 95 Bulls while rusty doesn't require nearly as much

[CuhGetsBucks]

Yall ever talk about what's going on in the NBA now or...?

[SouBeachTalents]

Rodman was the Bulls best player in Game 6

[HenryGarfunkle]

.
In the locker room before the game, Jordan tells a reporter that the 3-0 blowout lead has made him "more relaxed than he's ever been".. Not surprisingly, the vacation-planning Jordan got his father killed over gambling debts - because he lacked the ability to stay disciplined enough not to gamble and get himself into ugly situations in the first place. Jordan was a degenerate loser who happened to play for the most consistently good core of players and the best coach in basketball for the majority of the 90's (a watered down era to begin with) - and thus was apart of many championship teams. But we see Jordan's lack of discipline and personal respect cost him losses on and off the court.
1-9 without Pippen shows Jordan couldn't win without the absolute best supporting cast and best coach. Not to mention they miraculously stayed mostly healthy. Jordan was the luckiest player in history.

[3ball]

Jordan was the luckiest player in history.


No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career, EXCEPT the luckiest player in history, who did so by an average margin of 15.4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) ppg, while also leading his team in assists most seasons and being the best defender ever at his position.

Wow, some "luck"

[Round Mound]

Jordan had SCOTTIE PIPPEN a Better 2nd Option Than Any Other Superstar of His Era. :confusedshrug:

[CuhGetsBucks]

Yall ever talk about what's going on in the NBA now or...?
I guess not damn yall some fanboy faggggots

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I always wondered how that series would've played out had George Karl decided to put GP on MJ earlier. Probably the same result, Chicago in 6 or 7, but Jordan's series would've been THAT much worse.

Without doubt some of the best, individual on-ball defense you'll ever see. At least in a finals.

[3ball]

Jordan had SCOTTIE PIPPEN a Better 2nd Option Than Any Other Superstar of His Era. :confusedshrug:


Jordan 3-peated despite Pippen averaging 17 ppg on 40.8% in 1996-1998 playoffs... Obviously, there were MANY second options better than that.

Pippen's sub-par play included 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals (worst of all time for a 2nd option), and 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals...

Otoh, during the first 3-peat, Pippen WAS one of the best 2nd options in the league.. But after Pippen, the Bulls were all role players - Jordan didn't enjoy multiple superstar teammates like Lebron always has, which is why his first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12606202&postcount=1) 25% more scoring in the playoffs with equal assists to Lebron's 3 rings.

[SamuraiSWISH]

His game 3 performance on the road all but sealed it ... and then everyone got complacent. The rest of the team shot just as poorly. Jordan in particular just had a horrid shooting series. Looks he normally converted. Either way, MJ's worst Finals

'96 MJ

'08 Kobe
'07 LeBron
'11 LeBron
'04 Kobe
'00 Kobe

Is better than all the putrid ones from everyone else on this list, and he actually won. Even in his worst performance and it wasn't like someone on his team played better or carried him.

[Dray n Klay]

His game 3 performance on the road all but sealed it ... and then everyone got complacent. The rest of the team shot just as poorly. Jordan in particular just had a horrid shooting series. Looks he normally converted. Either way, MJ's worst Finals

'96 MJ

'08 Kobe
'07 LeBron
'11 LeBron
'04 Kobe
'00 Kobe

Is better than all the putrid ones from everyone else on this list, and he actually won. Even in his worst performance and it wasn't like someone on his team played better or carried him.


Jordan only managed to make 6 Finals in his career, so he has a smaller sample size to pick the 'worst Finals performance' from :confusedshrug:





What's easier, finding a horrible season from someone who played 16 years or someone who played 7?

More samples = higher probability

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan only managed to make 6 Finals in his career, so he has a smaller sample size to pick the 'worst Finals performance' from :confusedshrug:





What's easier, finding a horrible season from someone who played 16 years or someone who played 7?

More samples = higher probability

Funny how he managed to double LeBron's FMVP count in less appearances

[Round Mound]

Jordan 3-peated despite Pippen averaging 17 ppg on 40.8% in 1996-1998 playoffs... Obviously, there were MANY second options better than that.

Pippen's sub-par play included 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals (worst of all time for a 2nd option), and 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals...

Otoh, during the first 3-peat, Pippen WAS one of the best 2nd options in the league.. But after Pippen, the Bulls were all role players - Jordan didn't enjoy multiple superstar teammates like Lebron always has, which is why his first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12606202&postcount=1) 25% more scoring in the playoffs with equal assists to Lebron's 3 rings.

[B]Pippen

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You guys really know nothing about the greatest player of all time.. You should be embarrassed to be talking on forums as if you have a clue.

No smallish, 6'4" player could ever hold down Jordan in a series.. If you had watched Jordan, you'd know this.

Payton had a couple good games against Jordan (games 4 and 6), but the dynamic would be completely different he guarded Jordan from Game 1..

Chances are, Karl switches Payton off Jordan midway through the first or second quarters of Game 1.. It would be an unorthodox "leap" for Karl to put Payton on Jordan from Game 1 in the first place, so the instant it starts to go bad, Karl would've switched back.. Regardless, Jordan would've had the entire series to figure out how to dominate the tiny Payton, just like he did in 1993 ECF against Starks.

Well Payton guarded Jordan well in one series, and probably would've done an even BETTER job had he got to do so earlier.

Admitting and stating the obvious is okay, 3ball. You'll be alright...

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan managed to make 6 finals and win 6 Finals. Along with 6 Finals MVPs.

Along with 5 MVPs (should've been like 8) and won a DPOY.

So LeBron and Jordan on the Bulls of this past year played the same exact amount of seasons. Even if we are including his injured sophomore season and his 17 game stint in 1995 ... yet

He has 1 more MVP
He has 1 more DPOY
He has 3 more Rings
He has 3 more Finals MVPs

You don't get awarded for first loser or finals appearances. Hate to break it to ya.

Congrats, your guy LeBron in the same amount of seasons has like half of Jordan's resume. Maybe in another 13 years after he goes 3 for 7 again ... in 26 seasons he'll match the amount of rings Mike has along with Finals MVPs.

Probably won't get that defensive player of the year award though. Or the extra MVP.

When your own former teammate and best buddy says you won't be as great as Jordan. I think he has better insight than anyone. He was there for 2011 and all the near chokes. He knows he's not as good.

[3ball]

I always wondered how that series would've played out had George Karl decided to put GP on MJ earlier. Probably the same result, Chicago in 6 or 7, but Jordan's series would've been THAT much worse.


No smallish, 6'4" player could ever hold down Jordan in a series.. If you had watched Jordan, you'd know this.

Payton had a couple good games against Jordan (games 4 and 6), but the dynamic would be completely different he guarded Jordan from Game 1..

Chances are, Karl switches Payton off Jordan midway through the first or second quarters of Game 1.. It would be an unorthodox "leap" in the first place for Karl to put Payton on Jordan from Game 1, so the instant it starts to go bad, Karl would've switched back.

Regardless of whether you agree, Jordan would've had the entire series to figure out how to dominate the smaller Payton, just like he did in 1993 ECF against Starks - go look how that series went.. Since he would've had the entire series, his stats would've ended up BETTER than they were getting ambushed at the end of a series that was already over.

[TheWinningFam]

So LeBron and Jordan on the Bulls of this past year played the same exact amount of seasons. Even if we are including his injured sophomore season and his 17 game stint in 1995 ... yet
The product of playing in a shit 90s expansion era vs weak competition. :coleman:




Probably won't get that defensive player of the year award though. Or the extra MVP.Got robbed of the dpoy in 12-13 and very well could get mvp this season. :coleman:


When your own former teammate and best buddy says you won't be as great as Jordan. I think he has better insight than anyone. He was there for 2011 and all the near chokes. He knows he's not as good.Lebron was the third option in 2011, without wade's missplay in game 4 they go up 3-1. :coleman:

[LostCause]

Lebron was the third option in 2011, without wade's missplay in game 4 they go up 3-1. :coleman:

Played like a third option. That wasn't his designation though :oldlol:

[3ball]

Well Payton guarded Jordan well in one series


Payton did an okay job on Jordan for 2 games.

I say "okay" because he needed a lot of help - Youtube uploader "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk) showing Payton guarding Jordan in Game 4, and it shows that Jordan was double-teamed 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding him - all 10 double-teams are shown in gifs here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11792377&postcount=161).





and probably would've done an even BETTER job had he got to do so earlier.


It's simply unfortunate that Payton was put on Jordan after the series was already over, plain and simple.

Anyone that watched Jordan knows that if he had more time (like the entire series) to work on Payton, he would explode on Payton at SOME point in the series, or dominate from the outset.. As would be expected, no one had sustained success guarding the goat scorer - it's impossible, as Payton found out in their first 1997 meeting when Karl put Payton on Jordan again, and Jordan dropped him off for 45 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuryGoKXT-Q).

[Round Mound]

Nobody could guard Jordan. But lets not overrate him by saying he did everything on the team. That title belongs to Pippen who was THEE BEST PLAY MAKER AND DEFENSIVE PLAYER on the Bulls team.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Nobody could guard Jordan. But lets not overrate him by saying he did everything on the team. That title belongs to Pippen who was THEE BEST PLAY MAKER AND DEFENSIVE PLAYER on the Bulls team.

Pippen was not a better playmaker than Jordan, and he was only the better defender after MJ's first retirement.

[LostCause]

Payton wasn't guardiang Jordan face up and just shutting him down. When that situation occured more times than not Payton received help. What Payton DID do to Jordan though was play him extremely hard to deny him the ball. This either caused MJ to get the ball in a bad spot, not get the ball, or if he got it a trap was on the way (Seattle was known for using modern defensive tactics back then). Believe it or not Payton was one of the worst defenders the Sonic had for Jordan when they were 1 on 1 and Jordan had the ball in his hands

[Round Mound]

Pippen was not a better playmaker than Jordan, and he was only the better defender after MJ's first retirement.

[B]:no: Yes He Was: Pippen Was The Better Passer = He Had That Since Entering The League as a Rookie: Jordan Had To Develop His Passing as The Years Progressed From His Rookie Season (He Never Reached Bird

[3ball]

Payton wasn't guardiang Jordan face up and just shutting him down. When that situation occured more times than not Payton received help. What Payton DID do to Jordan though was play him extremely hard to deny him the ball. This either caused MJ to get the ball in a bad spot, not get the ball, or if he got it a trap was on the way (Seattle was known for using modern defensive tactics back then). Believe it or not Payton was one of the worst defenders the Sonic had for Jordan when they were 1 on 1 and Jordan had the ball in his hands


trapping is a modern tactic?.. are you serious?

do you realize how much easier it was to trap when there's no spacing and the on-court players aren't spread out?

here's a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s) where MJ is trapped 12 of 13 times during a 2 minute stretch of the video (6:40-8:40).. NO ONE is trapped like that in today's game, because the players are spread out by spacing so defenders must travel a further distance to trap - this makes it HARDER and often prohibitive/punitive to trap..

I find it amazing that anyone can watch today's spaced-out game and think that somehow it's a tougher scoring environment.

[3ball]

Pippen Was The Better Passer = He Had That Since Entering The League as a Rookie:


Nonsense..

Pippen averaged 2.1 apg as a rookie and 3.5 as a 2nd year player, compared to Jordan's 5.9 as a rookie.





Pippen Could Distribute To His Teamates In Much The Way and Flow of What Lebron and Grant Hill Did or Do.


Nonsense..

Pippen's handle wasn't that sophisticated, so he wasn't that good at breaking his man down off-the-dribble and tossing a "dime" like a point guard - Jordan was FAR better at this..

Pippen's passes and assists were ordinary passes for the most part, where he doesn't break his man down or make fancy passes.. For example, Pippen could never play point guard like Jordan did in 1989, where Jordan averaged 30/9/11 for 24 games at PG, including 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.





Pippen Was The Better Passer


Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
.

[Round Mound]

Nonsense..

Pippen averaged 2.1 apg as a rookie and 3.5 as a 2nd year player, compared to Jordan's 5.9 as a rookie.



Nonsense..

Pippen's handle wasn't that sophisticated, so he wasn't that good at breaking his man down off-the-dribble and tossing a "dime" like a point guard - Jordan was FAR better at this..

Pippen's passes and assists were ordinary passes for the most part, where he doesn't break his man down or make fancy passes.. For example, Pippen could never play point guard like Jordan did in 1989, where Jordan averaged 30/9/11 for 24 games at PG, including 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.



Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
.

Most All That % and APG Came Off Double Teamin Jordan Because He Was The Best Driver, Slasher, Mid Range Shooter and Perimeter Scorer....So That Left A Man Open From Fear of Him Scoring.

[B]Check Out The Games and You Can Clearly See Pippen Has A More Natural Feel For The Game as A Ballhandler, Playmaker and Passer. He Had It Since His Rookie Year. Jordan Developed Into a Good Passer and Playmaker Later On His Career But Did Not Have Pippen

[3ball]

.
This was the consensus about Pippen:



Shaquille O'Neal:

"You did okay, but MJ did most of the work"

"yes THE GREAT MICHAEL JORDAN GOT YOU SIX RINGS , but you will always be remembered as MR 2nd FIDDLE."

"Remember I WAS BATMAN YOU WAS ROBIN , I was PUFFY YOU WAS MASE"

"See what happens when Michael Jordan ain't protecting you, you lose a 17 pt lead in the fourth quarter." (referring to 2000 WCF Game 7)

http://www.espn.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/13292196/shaq-destroys-scottie-pippen-instagram-pippen-fires-back-just-keeps-going



Bill Laimbeer:


"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s



JERRY KRAUSE, Bulls GM:


“Would Pippen have been great someplace else?

Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him... No, Michael made him a man.

Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And he - Collins - had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death."

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558



Bill Laimbeer:


"The Jordan Rules were to just stop him, because no one else could beat you on that ballclub"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=1m22s



Chuck Daly:


"It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily... it's our 5.... playing... you."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s



Chuck Daly:


"We knew how dangerous he was and we knew going into the playoffs that we had to do something special.. So we most definitely devised what we called "the Jordan Rules""

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s



Phil Jackson:


"Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not TIME yet."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s

This was Phil Jackson during a huddle in the 1991 NBA Finals, showing how the everyday game plan was to leave Michael alone and let him do everything down the stretch of games.



Dumars and Isiah:


"Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)".

"Dumars and i were on the phone for hours, talking about 23 in red."

"Isiah called me at 3 in the morning and said 'I think i finally figured out a way to stop MJ"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s

This was Dumars' and Isiah's reaction to the Bulls taking 2-1 series lead in 1989 ECF after MJ hit GW over Rodman.. The last quote is from assistant coach Brendan Malone, who said that Isiah called at 3 am to talk about stopping MJ.




Reporter Pat O'Brien in 1989, confirming that Chuck Daly's championship defense was about stopping 1 guy via the "Jordan Rules":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=3m27s




Horace Grant:


"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I mean, would've had a decent career, but for a leader like that to lead you to 3 championships..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s


Scottie Pippen:


"It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s

This was Pippen in the Bad Boys documentary ADMITTING he the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7 - this cost the Bulls a trip to the Finals and the ring - (Bulls would've beaten Blazers - Blazers lost in 5 easy games to Pistons, while Bulls took then 7.


WOAT Support from 2nd Option:

1988 ECSF:.. 9 ppg on 42%
1989 ECF:... 10 ppg on 40%
1996 Finals: 15 ppg on 34%
1998 Finals: 15 ppg on 41%

Then he had the epic choke in Game 7 of 1990 ECF, which cost the Bulls their first championship - they would've beaten the Blazers in the Finals since the Pistons beat the Blazers in 5 easy games, but needed 7 games and the Pippen choke to beat Bulls.

[3ball]

It Was When Pippen Get The Job As The Point- Forward That The Bulls Began To Win Btw.


Pippen never got the "job" as point forward.. You made that up.. Jordan played point guard in 1989 and averaged 8 apg for the season, which Pippen could never do.

A couple years later in 1991, the Bulls finally won when Jordan averaged 8.4 apg in playoffs and 11 apg in the Finals - that's when the Bulls won for the first time.. The offense ran through Jordan, while Pippen was the sidekick.. Those are the facts





Pippen was Grant Hill and Lebron With Less Range and Less of a Pure Scorer Than Both


Pippen was nowhere NEAR the scorer or passer that Grant Hill or Lebron were - those guys can CREATE off-the-dribble like a point guard, while Pippen largely can't.

You apparently have no clue about Pippen's game.





Pippen is has timing and best passing


Again, Pippen's handle is basic and unsophisticated - he can't break his man down and toss times like Jordan or a point guard, nor can he move off-ball and make quick dimes like Jordan - it's not even close..

Pippen's is an above-average passer, but his assists are mainly basic chest passes that many other players would make - he rarely tossed "dimes" like Jordan or other players..

Also, Jordan's off-ball game was an assist reservoir for Pippen - notice how Pippen's assists and assist % decline in 1994, then go back up in 1995-96 when Jordan returns.. It's common knowledge that Jordan MADE Pippen and mentored him in every way - scoring, passing, defense, and mental strength.. Jordan "made him into a man", according to Jerry Krause (see previous post with quotes on Pippen).
.

[egokiller]

1-9

Jason Terry

[LostCause]

Pippen was NOT a better ball handler than Jordan wtf? I will say that Pippen was a more effective passer than Jordan, as he was more willing and legit spent time learning the tendencies and best spots of his teammates according to Phil himself. Jordan did too, but later.

Defensively Pippen was more vocal (Directed the team defense), versatile and is undoubtedly THE greatest help defender of all time, but Jordan was the guy you wanted if you needed to lock down a perimeter player on a dime and he was tasked with this many times. Just check out what he did to Reggie
in Game 7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPlPNDXkIYk

or what he did to a Prime Vince Carter at like 40 years of age
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1l8-PxFC4dA/VGst-515zSI/AAAAAAAAAgg/ZHi0IPCVviQ/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2014-11-18%2Bat%2B6.23.32%2BAM.png

[Mr Feeny]

Pippen was NOT a better ball handler than Jordan wtf? I will say that Pippen was a more effective passer than Jordan, as he was more willing and legit spent time learning the tendencies and best spots of his teammates according to Phil himself. Jordan did too, but later.

Defensively Pippen was more vocal (Directed the team defense), versatile and is undoubtedly THE greatest help defender of all time, but Jordan was the guy you wanted if you needed to lock down a perimeter player on a dime and he was tasked with this many times. Just check out what he did to Reggie
in Game 7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPlPNDXkIYk

or what he did to a Prime Vince Carter at like 40 years of age
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1l8-PxFC4dA/VGst-515zSI/AAAAAAAAAgg/ZHi0IPCVviQ/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2014-11-18%2Bat%2B6.23.32%2BAM.png

Did anyone say he was? Not even Pippen himself would argue that he was a better ball handler than Jordan.

[kamil]

1-9

Find a new slogan, kid.

[LostCause]

Did anyone say he was? Not even Pippen himself would argue that he was a better ball handler than Jordan.

Check Out The Games and You Can Clearly See Pippen Has A More Natural Feel For The Game as A Ballhandler

Yeh

[LAZERUSS]

Well Payton guarded Jordan well in one series, and probably would've done an even BETTER job had he got to do so earlier.

Admitting and stating the obvious is okay, 3ball. You'll be alright...

THIS.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2014/08/21/how-putting-gary-payton-on-michael-jordan-sooner-could-have-changed-the-1996-nba-finals/


Chicago won the the first three games of the series and were on the brink of a sweep, before George Karl finally made a key adjustment, allowing Payton, ‘The Glove,’ to guard Jordan. Because Payton was battling a calf muscle injury, George Karl was hesitant to use Payton to defend Jordan, despite Payton’s pleas. It wasn’t until Seattle was on the brink of elimination, down 3-0, that Karl finally relented. The part that doesn’t make sense is Payton still played 45.7 minutes per game. How exactly is that protecting Payton?

Once Payton finally had the green light, the individual battle was captivating. Jordan had at least 30 pounds and two inches on ‘The Glove,’ but Payton’s unrelenting tenacity made up for the size difference. Payton’s defense calls to mind Tony Allen’s— constant fronting in the post, quick hands prodding at the ball and standing as close to Jordan as humanly possible, making every effort to get him out of his comfort zone.

Not to pick at old scab, Seattle residents, but you have to wonder how Seattle would’ve fared had Payton defended Jordan the entire series. Just look at Jordan’s numbers:

First three games: 31 points, 46 fg%, 50 3fg%, 12.3 FTA.
Last three games: 23.7 points, 36.7 fg%, 11.1 3fg% 10 FTA.



George Karl BLEW the '96 Finals, plain-and-simple.

Furthermore...

Who was the Bulls most valuable player in the first two games of that series?

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/08/sports/nba-finals-once-again-rodman-is-most-valuable-bull.html?_r=0


But for all his wackiness, all his off-kilter desires for more ink on his body and pastels in his hair, there is still nothing Rodman desires more than a loose ball.

He has 33 rebounds in two games, his team is ahead 2 games to 0 in the best-four-of-seven series and he had the key play in Game 2. What's more, Karl is thinking seriously of changing his defensive rotation in order that Rodman can be blocked off the boards. "Jordan will get his points, but Rodman's rebounds, that was the difference."

"His offensive rebounds at the end killed us," Detlef Schrempf said. "He kept them in the game."

Rodman never came out to speak with reporters after the game. He was rumored to be packing his bags for Seattle, where he promised to spend time with his favorite alternative band, Pearl Jam.

Chicago's favorite alternative player was heading to land of grunge, doing all the dirty work, as usual.

[Dro]

Meh, I'm inclined to believe that if GP were on MJ from the jump and MJ KNEW this going in to the series, with time to plan, he would have pretty much had his way eventually in that series...

[Da_Realist]

Meh, I'm inclined to believe that if GP were on MJ from the jump and MJ KNEW this going in to the series, with time to plan, he would have pretty much had his way eventually in that series...

It's called "making adjustments". Something all the greats, especially MJ, were especially good at. MJ was the GOAT offensive perimeter player, had a great offensive system and the best coaching staff in the league... They would have figured it out.

[3ball]

lost cause...

[Smoke117]

Find a new slogan, kid.

You're a ****ing idiot if you actually think I'm serious. One and Nine is just all this obsessed dipshit is worthy of. You realize he's been repeating the same threads and the same posts for a year, right?

[3ball]

You're a ****ing idiot if you actually think I'm serious. One and Nine is just all this obsessed dipshit is worthy of. You realize he's been repeating the same threads and the same posts for a year, right?
rent free...

and you mad

[3ball]

I will say that Pippen was a more effective passer than Jordan, as he was more willing and legit spent time learning the tendencies and best spots of his teammates according to Phil himself.


Phil said that Jordan took time to learn teammate tendencies too, so that isn't an argument for either guy being a better passer.

Otoh, we know that Jordan was a more effective passer and better at catering to teammate tendencies, because he assisted on a higher proportion of teammate field goals in the playoffs during the 6-peat, as the stats show here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49).. :confusedshrug:





Jordan learned teammate tendencies too, but later.


You're wrong because when you say "later", are you referring to BEFORE or AFTER the Bulls won their first ring in 1991, when Jordan averaged 8.4 apg in the playoffs and 11.4 in the Finals?

If you're saying that Jordan learned teammate tendencies BEFORE 1991, than he did so before Pippen, since Pippen was just a young player before 1991... If you're saying Jordan learned teammate tendencies AFTER 1991, than that makes no sense, since he dominated 1991 passing-wise more than Pippen ever did.

[Paul George 24]

1-9 without Pippen shows Jordan couldn't win without the absolute best supporting cast and best coach. Not to mention they miraculously stayed mostly healthy. Jordan was the luckiest player in history.
jordan developed pippen,lebron destroyed hughes :banana: