What is more difficult to teach, great defense or great offense?

[BigNBAfan]

Both have their arguments

[SamuraiSWISH]

Great defense is effort based. It's intelligence, it's determination, and it's heart. Can't be afraid to be embarrassed. Just have to primarily be a hard worker.

See why a guy like Hinrich is so good. Or Beverely.

Offense however is ability based. Natural talent. Aptitude, and skill. You can't just go out and try hard.

[CuhGetsBucks]

Great defense is effort based. It's intelligence, it's determination, and it's heart. Can't be afraid to be embarrassed. Just have to primarily be a hard worker.

See why a guy like Hinrich is so good. Or Beverely.

Offense however is ability based. Natural talent. Aptitude, and skill. You can't just go out and try hard.
Right on the money.
I do think that some skill is required defensively though, thinking skills at that. You need to be able to get to spots quicker. A good coach would have less trouble teaching defense than offense to a player brand new to the game.

It seems like this generation complicates the game slightly with lack of understanding movement without the ball and other offensive concepts. With the rise of the Warriors you'll see streetball games become a ball watching three point shootout, which is crazy from the 90s style.

[HenryGarfunkle]

Great defense is effort based. It's intelligence, it's determination, and it's heart. Can't be afraid to be embarrassed. Just have to primarily be a hard worker.

See why a guy like Hinrich is so good. Or Beverely.

Offense however is ability based. Natural talent. Aptitude, and skill. You can't just go out and try hard.
Defense takes natural intuitive ability too though. LeBron was born with a gift to time a block perfectly and play passing angles. The ability to judge where a player is going and act accordingly takes natural talent. There are guys who bust ass at my local gym but don't have a lick of natural talent so they get burned anyway. It's not just effort. And intelligence is "talent" IMO.

[CuhGetsBucks]

Defense takes natural intuitive ability too though. LeBron was born with a gift to time a block perfectly and play passing angles. The ability to judge where a player is going and act accordingly takes natural talent. There are guys who bust ass at my local gym but don't have a lick of natural talent so they get burned anyway. It's not just effort. And intelligence is "talent" IMO.
Agree with this too

[SamuraiSWISH]

Oh intuitive ability helps regardless. I said intelligence.

That's basketball intelligence. Knowing how to read and anticipate before it happens based on experience. Certainly helps elevate a defenders quality.

That's to be a great defender, though. You can be GOOD or effective at defense purely on effort, and hard work. I see it all the time, even at the pickup level.

James Harden has all kinds of talent, but no effort. Thus why he's absolutely atrocious defensively.

You can't just go out, try real hard and be good offensively. In fact doing that will almost ensure you're the exact opposite. Great offense is borderline effortless, depending on the talent involved, and the amount of finely honed (practiced) skill.

[ClipperRevival]

Trick question?

[DaHeezy]

You teach offense, you motivate defense.

Teaching offense is a little harder since some may not have the ability or co-ordination and mechanics.
Teaching defense is much easier through positioning. But if motivated you can fit anyone in a great defensive scheme. Not every player fits in every offense.

[1manfastbreak]

Defense takes natural intuitive ability too though. LeBron was born with a gift to time a block perfectly and play passing angles. The ability to judge where a player is going and act accordingly takes natural talent. There are guys who bust ass at my local gym but don't have a lick of natural talent so they get burned anyway. It's not just effort. And intelligence is "talent" IMO.

he was also born with the gift of being 6'8" tall and the ability to jump out of the jump. That always helps.

[Jasper]

You teach offense, you motivate defense.

Teaching offense is a little harder since some may not have the ability or co-ordination and mechanics.
Teaching defense is much easier through positioning. But if motivated you can fit anyone in a great defensive scheme. Not every player fits in every offense.
Agree
Teaching offense at any level is hard , because of location as well as amount of plays ..
And then you have to be inteligent enough to know the players you are playing with. Even at the pro level I have seen players stand in a corner or 4 stand one move :facepalm
Teaching Defense is very physical and athletic. That is why most players become lazy , because the effort is beyond most players.
I'll never forget stepping into the high school level gym , and seeing a guy lock down anyone , not just for 1 minute like most guys , but for the whole scrimmage. It was like his desire was fueled by the thought he could be beat !!

[tpols]

just look at most of the greatest defensive players of all time ... they're all physical freaks. the fact that you dont need to be a physical freak to be a great offensive player is proof enough that many aspects of that can be learned...

[CuterThanRubio]

Defense takes natural intuitive ability too though. LeBron was born with a gift to time a block perfectly and play passing angles. The ability to judge where a player is going and act accordingly takes natural talent. There are guys who bust ass at my local gym but don't have a lick of natural talent so they get burned anyway. It's not just effort. And intelligence is "talent" IMO.

Agreed!

Wildly lunging and swiping for the ball will get you beat more often than not, coordinated defensive anticipation is a valued attribute


https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/htBJMIQLeWhOIlzQw0WAn1W5n0U=/0x0:4257x2890/920x613/filters:focal(1789x1105:2469x1785)/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/51328613/usa-today-9603530.0.jpg

[DaHeezy]

just look at most of the greatest defensive players of all time ... they're all physical freaks. the fact that you dont need to be a physical freak to be a great offensive player is proof enough that many aspects of that can be learned...

Joe Dumars? Sidney Moncrief? Gary Payton? Derek Harper?

Try again

[tpols]

Joe Dumars? Sidney Moncrief? Gary Payton? Derek Harper?

Try again


all great athletes in their primes ... and those guys arent even top 10 best defenders ever so if thats the weakest crop you've got, that's very telling.


let me put it this way ... you cant have Larry Bird or Dirk Nowitszki athleticism and be an ATG defender .. can still be good through effort obviously but you cant be david robinson, or wilt chamberlain, or even Scottie Pippen.


Defense is translatable across sports. whether youre playin defense in football, soccer, hell even hockey, the goal is to stay in front, impede progress, and physically harass. Offense for every sport requires a more specialized skillset to be learned.

[DaHeezy]

all great athletes in their primes ... and those guys arent even top 10 best defenders ever so if thats the weakest crop you've got, that's very telling.
.

:roll:
For their positions? Hell yes they are! And no they were not athletic! Not by a Longshot.
You're using a small sample size of Jordan and Pippen. Historically what's considered the greater defenders were more about positioning.
Who's better? Russell or Kemp? Moncrief or Vince Carter? Duncan or Dwight?
Most DPOY big men get it due to gaudy numbers. Now so much ability. DeAndre may get it over Draymond, but I still think Draymond is a better defender.

Even today's game which is predicated on Athleticism the best defenders are Kawhi, Bradley, Tony Allen, Draymond. Whiteside might be a block machine, but he fouls out to often. Same with DeAndre. If they had decent foul shooting they may foul out every game.

So no, it's not entirely based on Athleticism. It's premised on mindset and motivation plus knowledge of great positioning to be a great defender.



BTW, you're hockey reference doesn't apply to your theory. The greatest puck defenders were never fast or athletic.

[tpols]

jesus dude, if you're going to tell me a prime gary payton "wasn't athletic by a longshot" i dont even know what to say to you. best to let you be i guess.






i also never said it was entirely athleticism based, just moreso than offense is. you're arguing a strawman.

[andgar923]

jesus dude, if you're going to tell me a prime gary payton "wasn't athletic by a longshot" i dont even know what to say to you. best to let you be i guess.






i also never said it was entirely athleticism based, just moreso than offense is. you're arguing a strawman.
Sorry dude, but he wasn't a great athlete, and neither were the people mentioned (Dumars, Syd, etc).

Nobody here will say Battier, Bowen, are better athletes than VC, Jamal Crawford, etc.

GP wasn't an elite athlete, he wasn't fast, wasn't strong, wasn't a great leaper, at least not compared to some of the elite athletes in the league. But like Heezy mentioned he had determination, was tough, and willing to get dirty.

Naturally being a great athlete helps, but it's not a requirement.

[Smoke117]

Great defense is effort based. It's intelligence, it's determination, and it's heart. Can't be afraid to be embarrassed. Just have to primarily be a hard worker.

See why a guy like Hinrich is so good. Or Beverely.

Offense however is ability based. Natural talent. Aptitude, and skill. You can't just go out and try hard.

Not really...if you don't have the physical tools you'll be a poor defensive player regardless of all that. Steve Nash for instance actually tried...he just didn't have the athleticism to defend anybody.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Who's better? Russell or Kemp?

:biggums:

Russell was a freak athlete. You're kidding, right?

[tpols]

:biggums:

Russell was a freak athlete. You're kidding, right?


the guy was 7 feet tall and could run like an olympian lmao ...
not athletic doe.


To be an all time great defender you need that athleticism combined with the motivation and discipline.. you cant just have one or the other.. even young Timmy D had high end athleticism for his size, but hes probably the least freakish of GOAT defenders, one of the rarer overwhleming "skill based" ones

[Dray n Klay]

Lmao tpols shifting goalposts to suit his agenda


Cute

[Smoke117]

Also, the most important aspect of a great defender is CONSISTENCY. That's why Kobe should never be classified as a great defender...he probably actually tried about 1/3rd of the time game in game out. The 2000 season is the only season where he was ever consistent...then he decided that he wanted to score 30ppg and defense wasn't that important.

[DaHeezy]

Lmao tpols shifting goalposts to suit his agenda


Cute

Lol, pretty obvious eh? His argument got busted so he turns to knit picking

[Dray n Klay]

Lol, pretty obvious eh? His argument got busted so he turns to knit picking


There's nothing tpols says these days that you can take serious anymore.



Dude actually used to be one of the more objective Kobe stans, but LeBron's championship absolutely mindf*cked him into oblivion.







He hasn't been the same since :lol

[DaHeezy]

There's nothing tpols says these days that you can take serious anymore.



Dude actually used to be one of the more objective Kobe stans, but LeBron's championship absolutely mindf*cked him into oblivion.







He hasn't been the same since :lol

:oldlol:
Ouch. That explains the I'm beat, I reach style argument. Over compensation is a hell of a downward spiral