Outside of shooting, is there anything Kyrie is better than John Wall at?

[Dray n Klay]

John Wall has started to get pretty underrated on this forum.

[TommyGriffin]

Let's just put it this way. If John Wall played for Cleveland instead of Irving, we wouldn't of won the Championship.

[Spurs m8]

John Wall can do lay ups

He's also a salty b!tch.

Wall shot 4-11 today so far and 1-6 FT, 0-3 from 3 wtf

Cool

[Dray n Klay]

Let's just put it this way. If John Wall played for Cleveland instead of Irving, we wouldn't of won the Championship.


Yes, because you're (a) Warriorfan

[D-Wait]

I don't see the point of this thread. Everybody knows a healthy John Wall is a better defender and generally a better passer than Irving. But in today's Nba it doesn't matter if you are a floor general or a scoring PG like Lillard, Irving, Curry, etc. If anything, you have to be able to shoot nowadays, especially when you play with a guy named Lebron of course.
You can also get away with your PG being an average defender.

[To4]

John Wall is awesome. Just needs to shake that injury he sustained last season. He will get back in rythm.

[Prometheus]

Ball handling.

[Dray n Klay]

Ball handling.


They're about the same



Watch John Wall's hoopmixtape on YouTube if you want proof

[plowking]

I'd rather have Wall on my team. He isn't close to the iso player, or scorer that Kyrie is, but I think he is a far more influential player in a vacuum. Better on defense too, by a good margin.

[BigKAT]

I'd rather have Wall on my team. He isn't close to the iso player, or scorer that Kyrie is, but I think he is a far more influential player in a vacuum. Better on defense too, by a good margin.

Spot on.
Kyrie is a beast.

But I'd rather have John Wall if I can only have one.
(Now if we go into the question of who fits Lebron more as a 2nd question, you've got yourself a debate. Irving takes it.)

[G-train]

Outside of shooting, is there anything Kyrie is better than John Wall at?

Well shooting is pretty important.
But it's not just shooting, his shot creation and dribbling is also better.
He is also a better clutch player.

I'd comfortably take Irving ahead of Wall.

Wall simply isn't capable of games like Irving in Game 6 2016 NBA Finals.
That game for me turned Irving from star point guard to elite NBA player, regardless of defensive skill.

I don't care what you can write on paper. What's done is DONE.
That was Michael Jordan big time balling. And he's done it enough to be above Wall who is granted a better defender and more athletic.

[AintNoSunshine]

Scoring in general, which is 33% of basketball?

[CTbasketball92]

John Wall has a higher floor, Kyrie has the highest ceiling.

When Wall is bad, he'll still do other things. Kyrie won't, but he isn't really that streaky of a player, so he's usually good. This season will decide it for me. If kyrie plays even average defense while getting 24 a game with 5 assists it's at least a tie, assuming wall remains the same. I have to see how wall can do in the playoffs when he's healthy.

[Dray n Klay]

Wait, are we certain that Kyrie is a better isolation scorer than Wall??


Lets atleast debate that.

[AintNoSunshine]

Wait, are we certain that Kyrie is a better isolation scorer than Wall??


Lets atleast debate that.
:facepalm

My brother, John Wall can't shoot for sht, what else do you need to debate?

Kyrie on the other hand is a 3 pt contest champion, has the ball handling skills to dance on basically anybody. Most likely the best finisher around the rim with either hand, what that's word again? ambidextrous. Is deceptively quick and strong. He's not as explosive as Wall and not as fast in the open court but that's it.

No contest here if we are talking about iso scoring.

[G-train]

Wait, are we certain that Kyrie is a better isolation scorer than Wall??


Lets atleast debate that.

Yes because Irving has dropped 41 using isolation under the highest possible pressure in the NBA. And also throughout the playoffs. His range is also unlimited.

Wall couldn't do that against the 76ers.

I don't really care what the advanced metrics show during the regular.

What's DONE is DONE.

[Dray n Klay]

Scoring stats (2015-2016 season)



Kyrie

19.6 ppg



John Wall

19.9 ppg

[CTbasketball92]

Scoring stats (2015-2016 season)



Kyrie

19.6 ppg



John Wall

19.9 ppg

Injury* and Wall crumbles in the playofs when it comes to efficiency, even when his supporting cast was pretty damn solid.

[GrapeApe]

Scoring stats (2015-2016 season)



Kyrie

19.6 ppg



John Wall

19.9 ppg

Career averages:

Irving: 21 ppg on 56%TS

Wall: 18 ppg on 51%TS

There's no question that Irving is the better and more efficient scorer.

[Dray n Klay]

Career averages:

Irving: 21 ppg on 56%TS

Wall: 18 ppg on 51%TS

There's no question that Irving is the better and more efficient scorer.

Whos the better player?

[DaHeezy]

Kyrie has those handles that gives him escapability.

As for the argument Wall average more. That's due to him being the number one option. Kyrie on the Wizards would score 25.

[Lebron23]

Kyrie is a better fit with LeBron. LeBron and his team is also capable of winning a title with Wall.

Just give LeBron a top 15-20 player in the NBA, and just give him the chip.

[jlip]

Wall would be a great fit for Melo.

[GrapeApe]

Whos the better player?

If you had asked me that question in April I might have said Wall, but what Irving did in the playoffs is better than anything we've seen from Wall. In 18 career playoff games Wall is averaging under 18 ppg on a dreadful 38% shooting and 47%TS. Not good.

[ralph_i_el]

If I already have LeBronz give me Kyrie.

If I have a great off-ball scorer give me Wall

[ralph_i_el]

If you had asked me that question in April I might have said Wall, but what Irving did in the playoffs is better than anything we've seen from Wall. In 18 career playoff games Wall is averaging under 18 ppg on a dreadful 38% shooting and 47%TS. Not good.

Yet Wall has led fairly weak teams into the second round. His playoff stats may look pretty bad, but he's the engine that makes the team go.

[DukeDelonte13]

winning championships.

[ralph_i_el]

Yes because Irving has dropped 41 using isolation under the highest possible pressure in the NBA. And also throughout the playoffs. His range is also unlimited.

Wall couldn't do that against the 76ers.

I don't really care what the advanced metrics show during the regular.

What's DONE is DONE.

:wtf: Wall dropped 47 points on Tony Allen and the Griz

[ClipperRevival]

Is this a trick question there you OP troll?

* GOAT level ball handling
* GOAT level finisher as a PG
* Far superior ability to break down set defenders in half court sets
* Just a far superior offensive player, which is the biggest premium in bball, especially in the playoffs, when the game slows down and you have to create in half court sets against set defenders and set defenses

[ralph_i_el]

Is this a trick question there you OP troll?

* GOAT level ball handling
* GOAT level finisher as a PG
* Far superior ability to break down set defenders in half court sets
* Just a far superior offensive player, which is the biggest premium in bball, especially in the playoffs, when the game slows down and you have to create in half court sets against set defenders and set defenses

It's much easier to score when you rarely look to pass....

Plus...no D

Cavs didn't even really see a drop off in +/- when Delly came on because he was so much better than Kyrie on D

[ClipperRevival]

It's much easier to score when you rarely look to pass....

Plus...no D

Cavs didn't even really see a drop off in +/- when Delly came on because he was so much better than Kyrie on D

LOL. It's NEVER easy to score in the playoffs against a set defender with a set defense backing up that defender. That's the hardest thing to do in bball.

But anyways, here are his +/- in the last 3 games of the finals:

Game 5: +20
Game 6: +25
Game 7: +10

LeBron in the same 3 games:

Game 5: +13
Game 6: +26
Game 7: +4

The fact is, Irving was the momentum stopper in the last 3 games of the finals. Time and time again, when it looked like GSW was making a run, he would put a stop to it. That is CLUTCH. That is showing up when it matters. Being clutch isn't just about hitting the game winner (which he actually did LOL). It's about sensing key moments in games and either stopping the momentum of the other team or burying another team when they are ripe for the killing.

[ClipperRevival]

And Delly only played 6 minutes in the last 3 games of the finals (didn't even play game 7). And he was a -5 in game 5 and a -7 in game 6. So you're statement is pretty much WRONG.

[aj1987]

Let's just put it this way. If John Wall played for Warriors instead of Curry, we would've won the Championship.
Agreed.

[ralph_i_el]

LOL. It's NEVER easy to score in the playoffs against a set defender with a set defense backing up that defender. That's the hardest thing to do in bball.

But anyways, here are his +/- in the last 3 games of the finals:

Game 5: +20
Game 6: +25
Game 7: +10

LeBron in the same 3 games:

Game 5: +13
Game 6: +26
Game 7: +4

The fact is, Irving was the momentum stopper in the last 3 games of the finals. Time and time again, when it looked like GSW was making a run, he would put a stop to it. That is CLUTCH. That is showing up when it matters. Being clutch isn't just about hitting the game winner (which he actually did LOL). It's about sensing key moments in games and either stopping the momentum of the other team or burying another team when they are ripe for the killing.


I understand it was in the finals, but it still was only 3 games. Plus he was going up against an injured Curry, who isn't a good defender in the first place.

In the regular season Delly had a significantly better +/-, and a MUCH better on/off +/- (and since he and Kyrie play the same position, comparing that stat for them makes sense because they often subbed for each other).

That's over a 70+ game sample size....not 3.

Stats say that last regular season the Cavs were 16 points per 100 possessions better when LeBron was on the court vs. when he was off the court

the Cavs were .2 points per 100 possessions WORSE with Kyrie on the court compared to when he sat

the Cavs were 8.2 points per 100 possessions BETTER when Delly was on the court compared to when he sat.

the Wizards were 4.8 points per 100 possessions better when Wall was on the court compared to when he sat.....and they were only 1 point per 100 possessions better than their opponents when he played (which means Wall was the only thing stopping the Wiz from being trash)


Kyrie is an excellent 1-on-1 scorer who got hot on a big stage. He does nothing else at an all-star level.

[ClipperRevival]

I understand it was in the finals, but it still was only 3 games. Plus he was going up against an injured Curry, who isn't a good defender in the first place.

In the regular season Delly had a significantly better +/-, and a MUCH better on/off +/- (and since he and Kyrie play the same position, comparing that stat for them makes sense because they often subbed for each other).

That's over a 70+ game sample size....not 3.

:biggums:

Delly regular season:

BPM -1.6, OBPM -0.2, DBPM -1.4

Irving regular season:

BPM +1.6, OBPM +3.0, DBPM -1.4

And those "only 3 games" are 3 of the most significant games in NBA history that elevated the legacy of some and downgraded the legacy of others. They mattered most.

[iamgine]

Shooting is pretty crucial. I mean Curry only has average, MAYBE above average playmaking and some say he's pretty bad on defense. But he's at least top 3 player in the league.

[ralph_i_el]

:biggums:

Delly regular season:

BPM -1.6, OBPM -0.2, DBPM -1.4

Irving regular season:

BPM +1.6, OBPM +3.0, DBPM -1.4

And those "only 3 games" are 3 of the most significant games in NBA history that elevated the legacy of some and downgraded the legacy of others. They mattered most.

Box score plus minus is an aggregate of counting stats (points, rebounds, steals, assists, blocks etc etc....). It doesn't reflect the actual quality of defense, or anything that doesn't show up in basic statsheets. Therefore it extremely underrates defenders unless they are getting a ton of blocks and/or steals. We all know that many of the best defenders DON'T get a ton of steals or blocks, and certain players DO get a bunch of steals and blocks without actually being a good defender.

Real plus minus actually reflects what went on in the game.

Delly is one of the best guard defenders in the league, and is a (slight)positive on offense, not because of scoring or playmaking, but because he doesn't try to do to much and stays in his lane.


Outside of scoring, what is Kyrie good at? He's not able to balance scoring and running an offense like a CP3 or Curry type player. Honestly, I don't think Kyrie is any better than Dame Lillard or Isaiah Thomas. He's just in a better situation (at the moment).

Being a shooter/scorer next to LeBron is the easiest starting job in basketball.

[Father Prime]

Wall does everything for stats. He's a mini mini Lebron...they don't have the clutch gene or a jump shot but they are fast and can jump really high and get occasional chase down or weak side blocks.

Kyrie is better

[MP.Trey]

I see the "Irving doesn't play defense" myth is still going strong by people who don't watch Cavs games. :oldlol:

[Father Prime]

I see the "Irving doesn't play defense" myth is still going strong by people who don't watch Cavs games. :oldlol:
Actually, he doesn't a lot of the time, but when he's locked in and focused, he's a pretty darn good man-to-man defender. Better than Steph, Dame, Wall, or Westbrook.

[ralph_i_el]

Actually, he doesn't a lot of the time, but when he's locked in and focused, he's a pretty darn good man-to-man defender. Better than Steph, Dame, Wall, or Westbrook.

:facepalm no

just no

[Father Prime]

:facepalm no

just no
Kyrie has quicker feet and is stronger than Wall. Wall has more length and recovery speed which is more suitable for team defense. Wall a better overall defender? Yeah. Man defender? I still pick a motivated Kyrie which isn't often, but the talent is there.

[aj1987]

Wall does everything for stats. He's a mini mini Lebron...they don't have the clutch gene or a jump shot but they are fast and can jump really high and get occasional chase down or weak side blocks.

Kyrie is better
My post from another thread:

#2 Kyrie being more clutch than LeBron:

The Cavs were struggling and LeBron scored 11 points in the 4th Q. 8 straight points at one point and scored 6 straight after GSW were up 4 and with all the momentum. Dude absolutely killed their momentum and gave the Cavs a 2pt lead. He also has the game saving block on Iggy.

Irving in the 4th Q's of the Finals:

https://s22.postimg.org/wjpp7uq8x/Screen_Shot_2016_09_06_at_11_31_25_PM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals:

https://s10.postimg.io/ckzotdxft/Screen_Shot_2016_09_08_at_12_53_42_AM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 3 games):

https://s10.postimg.io/pdnstb91l/Screen_Shot_2016_09_08_at_12_53_56_AM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 2 games):

https://s10.postimg.io/wjfjvri4p/Screen_Shot_2016_09_08_at_12_55_15_AM.png

Kyrie in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 2 games):

https://s10.postimg.io/m83733qfd/Screen_Shot_2016_09_08_at_12_54_46_AM.png

Dude scored 3/2/1 on 36% TS. He gets called the clutch god or whatever for making that one 3 when the game was tied. How the heck can you call LeBron a choker and Kyrie clutch AF, when it's not even close to being true.


Kyrie has quicker feet and is stronger than Wall. Wall has more length and recovery speed which is more suitable for team defense. Wall a better overall defender? Yeah. Man defender? I still pick a motivated Kyrie which isn't often, but the talent is there.
:biggums:

Kyrie is not even close to being as good as Wall defensively.

[ClipperRevival]

Box score plus minus is an aggregate of counting stats (points, rebounds, steals, assists, blocks etc etc....). It doesn't reflect the actual quality of defense, or anything that doesn't show up in basic statsheets. Therefore it extremely underrates defenders unless they are getting a ton of blocks and/or steals. We all know that many of the best defenders DON'T get a ton of steals or blocks, and certain players DO get a bunch of steals and blocks without actually being a good defender.

Real plus minus actually reflects what went on in the game.

Delly is one of the best guard defenders in the league, and is a (slight)positive on offense, not because of scoring or playmaking, but because he doesn't try to do to much and stays in his lane.


Outside of scoring, what is Kyrie good at? He's not able to balance scoring and running an offense like a CP3 or Curry type player. Honestly, I don't think Kyrie is any better than Dame Lillard or Isaiah Thomas. He's just in a better situation (at the moment).

Being a shooter/scorer next to LeBron is the easiest starting job in basketball.

BPM, OBPM, DBPM seems pretty legit to me.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_leaders.html

I do kind of get what you're saying though in that Kyrie is somewhat one dimensional but that one dimension he possesses is the most important aspect in the game. But no doubt he doesn't give you that all around game of a CP3.

[ClipperRevival]

My post from another thread:

#2 Kyrie being more clutch than LeBron:

The Cavs were struggling and LeBron scored 11 points in the 4th Q. 8 straight points at one point and scored 6 straight after GSW were up 4 and with all the momentum. Dude absolutely killed their momentum and gave the Cavs a 2pt lead. He also has the game saving block on Iggy.

Irving in the 4th Q's of the Finals:

https://s22.postimg.org/wjpp7uq8x/Screen_Shot_2016_09_06_at_11_31_25_PM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals:

https://s10.postimg.io/ckzotdxft/Screen_Shot_2016_09_08_at_12_53_42_AM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 3 games):

https://s10.postimg.io/pdnstb91l/Screen_Shot_2016_09_08_at_12_53_56_AM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 2 games):

https://s10.postimg.io/wjfjvri4p/Screen_Shot_2016_09_08_at_12_55_15_AM.png

Kyrie in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 2 games):

https://s10.postimg.io/m83733qfd/Screen_Shot_2016_09_08_at_12_54_46_AM.png

Dude scored 3/2/1 on 36% TS. He gets called the clutch god or whatever for making that one 3 when the game was tied. How the heck can you call LeBron a choker and Kyrie clutch AF, when it's not even close to being true.


:biggums:

Kyrie is not even close to being as good as Wall defensively.

So absolutely BALLING out in quarters 1-3 in games 5-7 of the NBA finals doesn't count? If you saw the finals, you saw the number of times he stopped the momentum of the GSW time and time again and just kept hitting buckets.

He put up these numbers in the last 3 games:

30.0 PPG, .523%, .529% 3PT

So that means he pretty much averaged 27 ppg in the first 3 quarters to keep his team in those games. That doesn't count?

[Papaya Petee]

Individually, Wall is a better player.
Kyrie Irving fits much better as a second option to LeBron.

Wall is a much better playmaker and creator, but when you have LeBron on your team you don't need to focus on playmaking as much and focus on scoring.
Kyrie is the better scorer of the two, Wall is a better playmaker and defender.

[ralph_i_el]

BPM, OBPM, DBPM seems pretty legit to me.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_leaders.html

I do kind of get what you're saying though in that Kyrie is somewhat one dimensional but that one dimension he possesses is the most important aspect in the game. But no doubt he doesn't give you that all around game of a CP3.

I agree, which is why he's an all-star caliber player.

Box Score Plus/Minus says that Nikola Jokic was the 11th best player in the league last year.

OBPM says that JJ Redick, Jrue holiday, Kemba, and Reggie Jackson were all better than Kyrie (and Dame+Isaiah). Kyrie is tied with Lou Williams.

DBPM says Trevor Booker is the 19th best defender in the league. Booker gets a ton of steals because he's an undersized 4, so teams go at him a lot....and he tries to get steals because otherwise he's getting scored on. DBPM does not have Tony Allen as a top-20 defender.....

All stats are flawed, but OBPM and DBPM are VERY flawed. They are just an aggregate of box score stats.

[ralph_i_el]

Kyrie has quicker feet and is stronger than Wall. Wall has more length and recovery speed which is more suitable for team defense. Wall a better overall defender? Yeah. Man defender? I still pick a motivated Kyrie which isn't often, but the talent is there.

I see what you're getting at here. Wall has had trouble with little quick point guards in the past. Guys like Aaron Brooks who are mini but ridiculously quick.

However, Wall has the added advantage of being able to check SG's. Honestly, he would work well in a Jason Kidd-Jason Terry sort of pairing, where they can switch guard positions on D.

[LostCause]

Irving is a better scorer, period, as far as I'm concerned (Haven't checked advanced stats or anything, just the eye test)

I also think his potential is greater

[tpols]

John Wall is a ~ 15/8/4 player in the playoffs as of now.. he shoots 47 TS.



Poor man's rondo aint touching kyrie.

[El Gato Negro]

http://youtu.be/Ib6rqOcIADQ in two years kyrie will have hit more game winners than bran. Can't teach clutch. Kyrie plays defense when he needs to.

[RedBlackAttack]

It has become pretty apparent that Kyrie has a level he can reach when he needs to that most other players (even amongst stars) do not possess. He has always had that extra gear, even before LeBron came back. In his formative years, he was always at or near the top in "clutch" play as broken down by 82games. Hell, he did it in the 2014 FIBA Games, going off in the most crucial games/situations.

He was likely on his way to doing it in the 2015 playoffs before the injuries started mounting. He was torching the Celtics backcourt, which is one of the best defensive groups in the league. As it was, he arguably outplayed Curry in Game 1 of The Finals with a truly damaged knee before it exploded. He has now played 8 Finals games against the two-time defending MVP. Each time going in, all we hear about is how the Cavs are going to have to overcome defensive liabilities with having to play versus Curry. Each time, Irving has been the problem Golden State can't solve.

So, when evaluating players, these are things that need to be taken into serious consideration. Could he play the way he does in those huge playoff or Gold Medal games all the time if he really pressed himself? I'm not sure. He might eventually get to that point. Do I have complete confidence that, in the biggest moments and on the biggest stages, he is always going to be the best version of himself? Yep.

Also, I think people are putting way too much stock into the 2016 regular season, especially these analytical robot journalists who regurgitate a mathematical equation and attempt to box players into it. The last time Kyrie was healthy for the majority of a regular season, he was All NBA at 22 years old. When you factor that into his superstar caliber playoff run, you come out with a pretty accomplished player with a skillset that, while flaws do exist, has proven his positives far outweigh any negatives.

Whether he is "better" than Wall, they're completely different kinds of players and the answer would largely depend on the situation.