Kyrie Irving Real Plus Minus

[ralph_i_el]

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/1

During last season Kyrie Irving was 26th among point guards in terms of Real Plus Minus. He was 13th in Offensive Real Plus Minus, and 72nd in Defensive Real Plus Minus.


the kid is a sieve on defense. The Cavs were better last season with him off the court. They were MUCH better with Dellavedova on the court compared to Kyrie.

Top-10 in Real Plus Minus at the PG:

Chris Paul
Steph Curry
Westbrook
Lowry
Rubio
Conley
Wall
Walker
Patrick Beverley
Goran Dragic

:confusedshrug:

Basically every metric that measures team success says that Kyrie is a detriment to his team. He had 3 good games in the finals.....but if it was his team they wouldn't even sniff the playoffs.


Remember kids, a bucket stopped is a bucket earned.

[Milbuck]

Dude was coming off a major injury and playing on a team with a lot of chemistry issues/dysfunction for a lot of the regular season. The previous year he was +3.4 overall, and only a -0.89 on defense, pretty much the same as Westbrook.

This year all that matters is that come playoff time he was a killer and his defense wasn't a factor at all, and was even good at times.

I've always maintained that Kyrie cannot be your best player if you want to have a winning team, but as a 2nd option to a more well rounded player like he is now? He's an absolute stud.

[Young X]

To be fair:

- You're supposed to take these metrics with a grain of salt. They don't mean everything.

- Kyrie had a mediocre regular season. You don't need RPM or any of these other metrics to tell you that. Look at his 2015 season and I'm sure he looks much better.

- He didn't just have 3 good games in the finals, his whole playoff run was very good.

[AnaheimLakers24]

hes better than wall

[Nastradamus]

To be fair:

- This is a metric you're supposed to take with a grain of salt. It isn't everything.

- Kyrie had a mediocre regular season. You don't need RPM or any of these other metrics to tell you that. Look at his 2015 season and I'm sure he looks much better.

- He didn't just have 3 good games in the finals, his whole playoff run was very good.

End thread here, cuz no more needs to be said

[CTbasketball92]

You can be a playoff team with Kyrie as your best player. BUT you won't have championship aspirations.

Also, I expect this season to be like his 2014-2015 season, except with higher scoring because of higher usage rate. He shot like 42% from three that year!

[Sarcastic]

Proof that any metric without context, never tells you the whole story.

I mean look at Michael Jordan. His rookie year he had a DBPM of 1.4. His second year his DBPM fell to -0.5. If we just go by the advanced stats, and not considering that he had a broken foot, you could come to the conclusion that he was becoming worse, and a defensive liability. But once you use common fcking sense, you realize that there was a reason his stats fell.

[NBAGOAT]

others have responded with good counters already. No one disputes he wasn't great during the RS but a lot of it has to do with coming off an injury and not playing a whole season. Over a whole season, I doubt Kyrie is as bad on defense as harden or Lillard and previous year's RPM show that. Blake's rpm wasn't that elite last year for the same reasons but people still expect him to be a top 10 guy this year because they know he had injury issues. Still get your point, people who think Kyrie is now suddenly a top 10 player in the league are overreacting to a great playoff run.

[Nilocon165]

sorry alex but Kyrie is the GOAT

[G0ATbe]

Wasn't he recovering from a season ending injury last season? :lol

He didn't even look near 100% till the playoffs...such a shitty thread :facepalm

[ralph_i_el]

I'm just on here trying to temper some of this overreaction. Half this forum thinks he's the best point guard in the game.

Wall led a team to the playoffs
Lillard led a team to the playoffs (and last years Blazers were supposed to be BAD)


Kyrie has never had a positive DRPM, so don't blame injuries. This is not an MJ situation, as an earlier poster said.

[JohnMax]

Cavs did not have a rim protector last season.

[ralph_i_el]

Cavs did not have a rim protector last season.

Doesn't explain why Dellavedova had such a great DRPM...

[Sarcastic]

Doesn't explain why Dellavedova had such a great DRPM...

How many starts did he have compared to Kyrie? How many times did he play against the other team's best players as opposed to the bench scrubs?

Context. Learn it.

[ralph_i_el]

How many starts did he have compared to Kyrie? How many times did he play against the other team's best players as opposed to the bench scrubs?

Context. Learn it.

He played more minutes than Kyrie last season. 7 less MPG though.

[Smoke117]

Like I've said before...Kyrie has become the most overrated player in the league right now...he's not even a top 5 pg in the league and no team would do shit with him as their best player...he doesn't have the overall impact for them to. There is actually morons here who think he's a top 10 player. :oldlol: Playing with the best player in the league has made this cat look much better than he really is.

[G-train]

Look at his 2015 season and I'm sure he looks much better.


On offence yes, but not on defence.

[tpols]

Like I've said before...Kyrie has become the most overrated player in the league right now...he's not even a top 5 pg in the league and no team would do shit with him as their best player. There is actually morons here who think he's a top 10 player. :oldlol:



the list of point guards who have done as much or more in the playoffs is short right now ..

westbrook
chris paul

??

i was gonna throw curry in there but he got thoroughly outplayed H2H in the playoffs... that matters. Playoffs matter, even if most of your idols were known for choking in them, smoke.

:coleman:

[Sarcastic]

He played more minutes than Kyrie last season. 7 less MPG though.

Was he coming off an injury?

With that said, Dellavadova is a better defender than Kyrie, but a worse player overall. I would expect MD to do the one thing he does better than KI, better than KI.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

He was injured and actually not that good in the regular season.

[CTbasketball92]

Like I've said before...Kyrie has become the most overrated player in the league right now...he's not even a top 5 pg in the league and no team would do shit with him as their best player...he doesn't have the overall impact for them to. There is actually morons here who think he's a top 10 player. :oldlol: Playing with the best player in the league has made this cat look much better than he really is.

And again, I think the better question is, how many other players have scored as much and as efficiently with a usage rate at or above 30% with a turnover rate as low as Kyrie? I forget the other names, but not many. You severely cheapen what Kyrie did. It took a ridiculous amount of shot-making skills and efficient ball to get it done, and I'm not sure more than 5-6 players can do what Kyrie did playing with Lebron. There aren't many iso-players as good who are also elite shooters from the midrange-threepoint land. But either way, rank kyrie anywhere between 11-15 and I think its totally fair -- with the caveat that having an elite guard is prob. more important than having a great big.

[RedBlackAttack]

Hilarious to hear people say, "he had a good finals but ... "

The guy turned it up for the entirety of the playoffs. It wasn't just numbers either, although his were outstanding. He was doing it while making huge shots/plays in critical situations starting with the Pistons series.

The last healthy regular season he had, he made the All-NBA team. The last playoff run he had, he was basically unstoppable for 20+ games.

And here we are, talking about RPM during the 2016 regular season that was used to recover from a serious injury as if it is more important than those things. It is just like any other statistic ... can be useful if applied as one of numerous factors. If you're basing your entire opinion of a player on RPM, you're doing it wrong and/or just cherry-picking to fit a preconceived narrative.

It's a noisy statistic even without factoring in the injury stuff. If you think Kyle Lowry is better than Paul George and Ricky Rubio is significantly better than John Wall, I would argue against those things as well. Cole Aldrich sh!ts all over Anthony Davis.

Jokic is also a Top 10 player in the league, apparently. That's the NBA according to RPM.

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

Hilarious to hear people say, "he had a good finals but ... "

The guy turned it up for the entirety of the playoffs. It wasn't just numbers either, although his were outstanding. He was doing it while making huge shots/plays in critical situations starting with the Pistons series.

The last healthy regular season he had, he made the All-NBA team. The last playoff run he had, he was basically unstoppable for 20+ games.

And here we are, talking about RPM during the 2016 regular season that was used to recover from a serious injury as if it is more important than those things. It is just like any other statistic ... can be useful if applied as one of numerous factors. If you're basing your entire opinion of a player on RPM, you're doing it wrong and/or just cherry-picking to fit a preconceived narrative.

It's a noisy statistic even without factoring in the injury stuff. If you think Kyle Lowry is better than Paul George and Ricky Rubio is significantly better than John Wall, I would argue against those things as well. Cole Aldrich sh!ts all over Anthony Davis.

Jokic is also a Top 10 player in the league, apparently. That's the NBA according to RPM.




:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: Have Some Shame. You're a Mod. Stop Melting Down every post about the Cavs.:lol

[RedBlackAttack]

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: Have Some Shame. You're a Mod. Stop Melting Down every post about the Cavs.:lol
Still celebrating the championship and now we have the Indians about to be in the World Series. If I'm melting down, it is the best meltdown ever. :lol

[ralph_i_el]

Hilarious to hear people say, "he had a good finals but ... "

The guy turned it up for the entirety of the playoffs. It wasn't just numbers either, although his were outstanding. He was doing it while making huge shots/plays in critical situations starting with the Pistons series.

The last healthy regular season he had, he made the All-NBA team. The last playoff run he had, he was basically unstoppable for 20+ games.

And here we are, talking about RPM during the 2016 regular season that was used to recover from a serious injury as if it is more important than those things. It is just like any other statistic ... can be useful if applied as one of numerous factors. If you're basing your entire opinion of a player on RPM, you're doing it wrong and/or just cherry-picking to fit a preconceived narrative.

It's a noisy statistic even without factoring in the injury stuff. If you think Kyle Lowry is better than Paul George and Ricky Rubio is significantly better than John Wall, I would argue against those things as well. Cole Aldrich sh!ts all over Anthony Davis.

Jokic is also a Top 10 player in the league, apparently. That's the NBA according to RPM.

I understand that RPM is flawed. No stat is perfect.
Per minute, Jokic was an all-star level player. He was out their looking like a young Pau Gasol.

There is an argument to be made for Lowry>George. Both are the best player on playoff teams....

Aldrich was only playing 13mpg against bench units. Dellavedova was playing 25mpg and often times was called on to guard tough assignments, whereas Kyrie often gets hidden on D (as well as you can hide a point guard these days).

I'm not basing my entire judgement on Kyrie on RPM. It just confirms the idea that he is a significant minus on defense. He has never been a positive on defense by any advanced metric.

People on here fall in love with high PPG and highlight plays.

PS: I respect you RBA. I'm not trying to troll.

[RedBlackAttack]

I understand that RPM is flawed. No stat is perfect.
Per minute, Jokic was an all-star level player. He was out their looking like a young Pau Gasol.

There is an argument to be made for Lowry>George. Both are the best player on playoff teams....

Aldrich was only playing 13mpg against bench units. Dellavedova was playing 25mpg and often times was called on to guard tough assignments, whereas Kyrie often gets hidden on D (as well as you can hide a point guard these days).

I'm not basing my entire judgement on Kyrie on RPM. It just confirms the idea that he is a significant minus on defense. He has never been a positive on defense by any advanced metric.

People on here fall in love with high PPG and highlight plays.

PS: I respect you RBA. I'm not trying to troll.

Irving is capable of playing solid defense when need be. He proved that against Golden State. If ever there was a team that lived off of tracking down and exploiting the weakest link, it was the 2016 Warriors. Hell, he was guarding Curry to start most defensive possessions in the series (before GSW flurry of screens). And Delly was basically out of the rotation in that series. It is nice to know Irving has it in him when things get serious.

That being said, he doesn't play with that kind of effort and attention to detail all the time obviously. He has gotten incrementally better over the years, but it is still the weakest part of his game.

For a guy like Delly, though, that was his job. He was on the roster to defend, occasionally get them into sets, hit the occasional spot-up J and be an energy guy. He didn't have to worry about scoring 20-30 points a night.

I'm not surprised the numbers are what they are with RPM and not just because of Irving's injury recovery (although that was a big part of it). With that statistic in particular, there are a lot of mitigating factors. It is as much about who is on the floor with you as it is how productive you are as an individual.

The Cavs would almost always have either LeBron or Kyrie on the floor. They would often use Delly to spell Kyrie with LeBron on the floor against the opponent's bench unit. Meanwhile, Irving would be on the floor without LeBron more than any other player on the team.

The more you play with LeBron, the better your +/- is likely to be, especially over a large sample of games. That isn't even mentioning that Irving and Delly played together a lot too, so Irving could play more off the ball. All of these things would and should make Delly's RPM higher than it would be in most any other situation.

Don't get me wrong... he is a nice player and extremely tough. But, he was in the absolute perfect role for his skillset and growth. It will be interesting to see how his numbers change in Milwaukee.

[Wally450]

There's about 5-6 PG's I'd happily take Kyrie over on OP's list. RPM is an awful stat to judge someone on. Who here would honestly take Patrick Beverly over Kyrie?

[juju151111]

Irving is capable of playing solid defense when need be. He proved that against Golden State. If ever there was a team that lived off of tracking down and exploiting the weakest link, it was the 2016 Warriors. Hell, he was guarding Curry to start most defensive possessions in the series (before GSW flurry of screens). And Delly was basically out of the rotation in that series. It is nice to know Irving has it in him when things get serious.

That being said, he doesn't play with that kind of effort and attention to detail all the time obviously. He has gotten incrementally better over the years, but it is still the weakest part of his game.

For a guy like Delly, though, that was his job. He was on the roster to defend, occasionally get them into sets, hit the occasional spot-up J and be an energy guy. He didn't have to worry about scoring 20-30 points a night.

I'm not surprised the numbers are what they are with RPM and not just because of Irving's injury recovery (although that was a big part of it). With that statistic in particular, there are a lot of mitigating factors. It is as much about who is on the floor with you as it is how productive you are as an individual.

The Cavs would almost always have either LeBron or Kyrie on the floor. They would often use Delly to spell Kyrie with LeBron on the floor against the opponent's bench unit. Meanwhile, Irving would be on the floor without LeBron more than any other player on the team.

The more you play with LeBron, the better your +/- is likely to be, especially over a large sample of games. That isn't even mentioning that Irving and Delly played together a lot too, so Irving could play more off the ball. All of these things would and should make Delly's RPM higher than it would be in most any other situation.

Don't get me wrong... he is a nice player and extremely tough. But, he was in the absolute perfect role for his skillset and growth. It will be interesting to see how his numbers change in Milwaukee.
This isn't true. They have offensive and defensive rapm. The reason Rubio has such a large offensive rpm is because the team falls off a cliff offensivly without him. He arguably the best pg defender too. He is similar to Jason kidd that way. In no metric is kyrie a good defender. He played good defense against a injured Curry. You have to also use context. Cole aldrich plaed against bench players and only 13 mins. Lowry had a great regular season is why he ahead of George.

[RedBlackAttack]

This isn't true. They have offensive and defensive rapm. The reason Rubio has such a large offensive rpm is because the team falls off a cliff offensivly without him. He arguably the best pg defender too. He is similar to Jason kidd that way. In no metric is kyrie a good defender. He played good defense against a injured Curry. You have to also use context. Cole aldrich plaed against bench players and only 13 mins. Lowry had a great regular season is why he ahead of George.
The injured Curry that scored 30+ points in each of the last three games to complete the comeback against OKC and was doing 360-degree dunks in the layup line before games? Kyrie also did a good enough job on him in Game 1 last year when Irving was the one truly hurt ... playing at maybe 80% if we are being charitable.

He also did a good enough job on Reggie Jackson, Jeff Teague/Dennis Schrader and Kyle Lowry in the preceding rounds.

Simply put, if you're using RPM as a way to actually rank player worth, you're deluding yourself. It's just a badly flawed statistic. That isn't to say it is worthless, but there are too many variables out of the control of individual players for it to be anything other than mildly amusing.

[tpols]

the biggest reason curry's game fell off wasnt because of injury or kyrie.. it was because he lost his goons, and the refs let every cav maul and chip him off the ball ... imo

[FKAri]

Cavs won the championship and he hit the game winning shot. That being said, people forget he got burned by Livingston in one of the games where it seemed like it would be a defining matchup in the series. You take the good with the bad with Kyrie. You use your lineups to get the most out of his positives.

[Uncle Drew]

The only plus/minus stat that matters in the amount of championships.

Chris Paul +0
Westbrook +0
Lowry +0
Rubio +0
Conley +0
Wall +0
Walker +0
Patrick Beverley +0
Goran Dragic +0

Irving +1

[Smoke117]

Kyring Irving is in the perfect situation to succeed and nobody can deny that. Besides scoring he's not asked to be a game changer or frankly even good at anything else...he can be a subpar playmaker and subpar defensive player and it doesn't matter because he plays with Lebron. As I said before...if he was the one who actually had to LEAD a team...they wouldn't do shit because he doesn't have enough impact in other parts of the game besides scoring.

[JT123]

Kyring Irving is in the perfect situation to succeed and nobody can deny that. Besides scoring he's not asked to be a game changer or frankly even good at anything else...he can be a subpar playmaker and subpar defensive player and it doesn't matter because he plays with Lebron. As I said before...if he was the one who actually had to LEAD a team...they wouldn't do shit because he doesn't have enough impact in other parts of the game besides scoring.
:applause: If you spend more time making posts like this instead of crying about "trolls" you might actually become a half way decent poster.