If 3-pt line was removed from today's game, what style of play would be used?

[3ball]

.
Without the ability to drive-and-kick for 3-pointers, drive-and-kick would no longer be more efficient than post-ups, midrange or any type of isolation.

So without 3-pointers, we'd see post-ups, midrange and isolations become the primary options on offense, just like previous eras.

WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT?

Because it affects how we compare players over eras - in previous eras, players were better at the skills needed when 3-pointers AREN'T an option (midrange, 1-on-1 ability from triple threat and post), while today's players are superior at skills used when 3-pointers ARE an option (3-pointers, and 1-on-1 ability off-the-dribble to generate drive-and-kicks that produce 3-pointers)

[BigKAT]

Not a diss against past big men,


But I think that being a good passer as a non-guard became much more effective.

Passing from the Post:

Back before the 3pt line, I assume that if a Big man (The main scorers of the era) was double teamed, he would send it to the guard, only to get it back and re-try the post move.

But nowdays, when the 3pt option is so crucial to success, whenever that defense collapse on a driving forward, or a big man posting up, that ability to send the ball out accuratly and in the right rythem can be devestating.

Good big man with passing abilities can really dismantle opposing defenses, like Draymond Green or Pau gasol, when they are a threat both to draw the foul, score from the post -and- breakdown your defense, that's lethal.

It means that these bigs will average less points, and more assists. That's a wonderful skill that opens up the game.

I mean, it does require the big to be a reliable scoring threat, you would collapse on Greg Monroe, but not necesserily on Ed Davis, unless he's got a mismatch.

Another Skill I think this era has got that is very different is the Drive-and-kick offense by guards.

You see guys like Harden, Lillard and Steph, who -know- they are giving defenses fits whenever they get past their guy, they need to keep their head up. You see Lebron doing that all the time, just because you got past your guy, and the lane is somewhat open, does not mean you go all the way.

If you're Lebron and you see Knight waiting at the rim, yeah, you go all the way for that and-1 or straight up layup, but if you see say, Bogut, or Mozgov waiting up there, you probably keep your eyes up and look for Kevin love, Jones or Mike Miller wide open and shoot them the ball for the three.

Now even if the defense rushes to collapse on love, or patrick patterson or whatever stretch out there-- It leaves the 3rd guy, the weakside guy wide open, a quick pass and the defense is in scrambles, a JR smith ready to kill you from 3, or maybe even shoot it back to a streaking Lebron still going for the inside shot.

Here's an example.

http://i.makeagif.com/media/10-22-2016/CQIMm7.gif
It's a really good one because it shows post passing at it's best.

Tristan Thompson has it in the post, he sends it off to Shawn Marion,
Now here's what happens next,

Lebron streaks inside, catchs it in the post, now, the defense already got a fit from Marion being somewhat open, then Lebron in the post, complete collapse.

Now instead of shooting, he spots up Love, and by the time Love gets the ball his defender is so unnerved that it's really easy for love to sidestep him and go for the open midrange shot, money.

You have,

Tristan Thompson -> Marion -> Lebron - > Love.
All this starts from the post, with two important passes going outside, grinding down the defense.

That's my opinion on this new Era and how it changed the game due to the 3pt shot.

Centers and Power Forwards need to be a bigger part of -understanding- the offense, and not just getting it in their sweet spots and going for the score, or being pnr guys.

[swagga]

.
Without the ability to drive-and-kick for 3-pointers, drive-and-kick would no longer be more efficient than post-ups, midrange or any type of isolation.

So without 3-pointers, we'd see post-ups, midrange and isolations become the primary options on offense, just like previous eras.

WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT?

Because it affects how we compare players over eras - in previous eras, players were better at the skills needed when 3-pointers AREN'T an option (midrange, 1-on-1 ability from triple threat and post), while today's players are superior at skills used when 3-pointers ARE an option (3-pointers, and 1-on-1 ability off-the-dribble to generate drive-and-kicks that produce 3-pointers)

we'd get an ugly inside only game. leave the 3p line but cut the dumb rules like no handchecking, different contact for perimeter and bigs, illegal screens .. that would quickly clean up the game.

[3ball]

Not a diss against past big men,


But I think that being a good passer as a non-guard became much more effective.

Passing from the Post:

Back before the 3pt line, I assume that if a Big man (The main scorers of the era) was double teamed, he would send it to the guard, only to get it back and re-try the post move.

But nowdays, when the 3pt option is so crucial to success, whenever that defense collapse on a driving forward, or a big man posting up, that ability to send the ball out accuratly and in the right rythem can be devestating.

Good big man with passing abilities can really dismantle opposing defenses, like Draymond Green or Pau gasol, when they are a threat both to draw the foul, score from the post -and- breakdown your defense, that's lethal.

It means that these bigs will average less points, and more assists. That's a wonderful skill that opens up the game.

I mean, it does require the big to be a reliable scoring threat, you would collapse on Greg Monroe, but not necesserily on Ed Davis, unless he's got a mismatch.

Another Skill I think this era has got that is very different is the Drive-and-kick offense by guards.

You see guys like Harden, Lillard and Steph, who -know- they are giving defenses fits whenever they get past their guy, they need to keep their head up. You see Lebron doing that all the time, just because you got past your guy, and the lane is somewhat open, does not mean you go all the way.

If you're Lebron and you see Knight waiting at the rim, yeah, you go all the way for that and-1 or straight up layup, but if you see say, Bogut, or Mozgov waiting up there, you probably keep your eyes up and look for Kevin love, Jones or Mike Miller wide open and shoot them the ball for the three.

Now even if the defense rushes to collapse on love, or patrick patterson or whatever stretch out there-- It leaves the 3rd guy, the weakside guy wide open, a quick pass and the defense is in scrambles, a JR smith ready to kill you from 3, or maybe even shoot it back to a streaking Lebron still going for the inside shot.

Here's an example.

http://i.makeagif.com/media/10-22-2016/CQIMm7.gif
It's a really good one because it shows post passing at it's best.

Tristan Thompson has it in the post, he sends it off to Shawn Marion,
Now here's what happens next,

Lebron streaks inside, catchs it in the post, now, the defense already got a fit from Marion being somewhat open, then Lebron in the post, complete collapse.

Now instead of shooting, he spots up Love, and by the time Love gets the ball his defender is so unnerved that it's really easy for love to sidestep him and go for the open midrange shot, money.

You have,

Tristan Thompson -> Marion -> Lebron - > Love.
All this starts from the post, with two important passes going outside, grinding down the defense.

That's my opinion on this new Era and how it changed the game due to the 3pt shot.


Your gif shows the problem with today's game - that's how it looks on prety much every play - someone gets wide open.. But plays can't be considered "great" if they happen all the time, and that's what happens when you have spacing.

Plays like that are so common and scripted, that the majority of your post was the detailed prediction of every pass of a given set.. The spacing makes passes and decisions predictable.

But in previous eras, without 3-point shooting and the resulting spaced-out defenders, the act of moving the ball was less effective - it's harder for passing to shift bunched-up defenders than spaced-out ones.. Just look at the GIF below - if the ball were to be swung around, the camping Moses just has to move his head and body like a swivel chair.. He doesn't have to leave the paint, whereas today's 3-point shooting/spacing forces bigs to move from one side of the court to the other when the ball is swung.

https://media.giphy.com/media/xX9jDhlAxLFmM/giphy.gif


Since passing was less effective without spacing, it meant strategy was less effective, and needed to be more impressive/sophisticated to actually work at a higher level than the competition.. With easy passing and cookie-cutter plays like your Love gif UNAVAILABLE in previous eras, the game was more reactionary, spontanteous, and instinctive - so great plays were harder to come by, but therefore more impressive when they occurred.

Another thing - look at Jordan in the GIF above - I don't give a shit who you are, you just can't get all the way to the rim with Moses and others camping in there like that.. Do you understand that?.. So now Jordan has to pull up for a contested, hangtime midrange jumper that you'd never seen in today's game.. And you can critique Jordan by saying he should've swung the ball to the other side - but we already know that Moses just has to turn his head and body like a swivel chair and the bunched-up defense doesn't shift much.. To make a great play against a set defense like that, you'll need a great 1-on-1 play or something truly special passing-wise.. But go watch the 80's Celtics, 90's Bulls and many more - they did it all the time.. So just imagine what those teams would do WITH spacing like Love and company enjoy in your gif.

One more thing - the real reason why Jordan can't pass the ball in the gif despite the paint-camping, is that he has no 3-point shooters to pass to.. In today's game, it's less correct for a player to go 1-on-1, because passing it opens up the possibility of a 3-pointer.. THAT'S the reason why 1-on-1 is less correct today - due to some gimmicky, arbitrary line.

[Jasper]

D howard would be the Curry

[Round Mound]

D howard would be the Curry

[B]Dwight is a great defender and rebounder but he has zero post moves offensively he

[BigKAT]

Your gif shows the problem with today's game - that's how it looks on prety much every play - someone gets wide open.. But plays can't be considered "great" if they happen all the time, and that's what happens when you have spacing.

Plays like that are so common and scripted, that the majority of your post was the detailed prediction of every pass of a given set.. The spacing makes passes and decisions predictable.

But in previous eras, without 3-point shooting and the resulting spaced-out defenders, the act of moving the ball was less effective - it's harder for passing to shift bunched-up defenders than spaced-out ones.. Just look at the GIF below - if the ball were to be swung around, the camping Moses just has to move his head and body like a swivel chair.. He doesn't have to leave the paint, whereas today's 3-point shooting/spacing forces bigs to move from one side of the court to the other when the ball is swung.

https://media.giphy.com/media/xX9jDhlAxLFmM/giphy.gif


Since passing was less effective without spacing, it meant strategy was less effective, and needed to be more impressive/sophisticated to actually work at a higher level than the competition.. With easy passing and cookie-cutter plays like your Love gif UNAVAILABLE in previous eras, the game was more reactionary, spontanteous, and instinctive - so great plays were harder to come by, but therefore more impressive when they occurred.

Another thing - look at Jordan in the GIF above - I don't give a shit who you are, you just can't get all the way to the rim with Moses and others camping in there like that.. Do you understand that?.. So now Jordan has to pull up for a contested, hangtime midrange jumper that you'd never seen in today's game.. And you can critique Jordan by saying he should've swung the ball to the other side - but we already know that Moses just has to turn his head and body like a swivel chair and the bunched-up defense doesn't shift much.. To make a great play against a set defense like that, you'll need a great 1-on-1 play or something truly special passing-wise.. But go watch the 80's Celtics, 90's Bulls and many more - they did it all the time.. So just imagine what those teams would do WITH spacing like Love and company enjoy in your gif.

One more thing - the real reason why Jordan can't pass the ball in the gif despite the paint-camping, is that he has no 3-point shooters to pass to.. In today's game, it's less correct for a player to go 1-on-1, because passing it opens up the possibility of a 3-pointer.. THAT'S the reason why 1-on-1 is less correct today - due to some gimmicky, arbitrary line.


Everything you've described seems to have worked well for Bird, Jordan, Kareem and stuff.

But I don't really like ISO ball. I don't enjoy watching Carmelo Anthony going 1 on 1 in the middle of the floor. I think that the 2000's in the generals suffered from too many people trying to imitate things that really onl work if you're Michael Jordan.

I love the 'Passing game'.
Watching San Antonio, Golden State, Cleveland, Atlanta and Boston spring the ball around is a joy to watch. From a fan standpoint, I couldn't be happier at the way the league is moving away from physical gifts to skill. (Everyone is still physically gifted af but you get my point.)

I am somewhat discouraged by how guards sometimes are deterimental to talented bigs because they don't get the ball enough (Jennings/Rose as Porzingins's guards terrify me in general.)

Glad we could have a nice discussion 3ball.

[Xiao Yao You]

Certainly a lot better game. Guys would actually have to be able to do something other than spot up for a 3.

[FKAri]

OP is too retarded to see that its not the 3pt line thats the problem; it's the no handchecking.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

If you still have a good shooter, you'd still drive and kick, it would just be a 2 instead of a 3. It is still an effective way to get an open shot, regardless of whether it is 2 or 3. Getting an open shot is always the goal.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Certainly a lot better game. Guys would actually have to be able to do something other than spot up for a 3.


Not certain.

[3ball]

I love the 'Passing game'.
Watching San Antonio, Golden State, Cleveland, Atlanta and Boston


Since today's spacing allows for finding the open man on every play, the passing can't really be called "great".

Otoh, truly great passing was required to make great plays on the unspaced courts of previous eras, so great plays were more rare - this makes sense, since by definition, great plays are supposed to be rare.

Today's game - beginner version: spacing, hands-off defense, no physicality, defensive 3 seconds
Previous era - advanced version: no-spacing, legal hand-checking, physicality, no defensive 3 second

Advanced version example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4Td5QRfzj4&t=1m25s

[bobeticus]

.
Without the ability to drive-and-kick for 3-pointers, drive-and-kick would no longer be more efficient than post-ups, midrange or any type of isolation.

So without 3-pointers, we'd see post-ups, midrange and isolations become the primary options on offense, just like previous eras.

WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT?

Because it affects how we compare players over eras - in previous eras, players were better at the skills needed when 3-pointers AREN'T an option (midrange, 1-on-1 ability from triple threat and post), while today's players are superior at skills used when 3-pointers ARE an option (3-pointers, and 1-on-1 ability off-the-dribble to generate drive-and-kicks that produce 3-pointers)

well it doesnt fit your agenda... i know where you are going... but to say

what will you prefer a free flowing basketball system which tons of outside and midrange shot or the other way around low post for about 16 seconds :confusedshrug: you know its easier now to shoot than the 90's era coz eventhough there are no 3pt system... its easy to have a jump shot than exhaust yourself lowposting at the paint...

[Gimmedarock]

I'd never want to get rid of the three but for me, fewer is better. It had more impact when most of the shots came from inside the line & a shooter got open for a three. For me, it had the same impact as a big dunk. I like when guys would iso & break a defense down. That used to be when the superstars stepped up to get a bucket without any help from teammates. Just get out if their way. Modern players are unbelievable atheletes but the current style emphasizes team ball so much, you don't get to see them display a full range of their skills. I miss occasional 1 one on one moments.

[r15mohd]

Another "what if" thread :facepalm

[ralph_i_el]

The game would be slower. If they removed the 3-pt line and then didn't add back in illegal D, the game would be UGLY. I'm talking 78-80 point games on the regular

[Gimmedarock]

A team scoring 78 is pretty rough but I watched plenty of great games with the scores something like 94 - 86. Just a matter of taste I guess. I like big guys scoring down low. I don't mind some teams where the offense is perimeter focused but I'd like to see some grind it out teams too.

[3ball]

the current style emphasizes team ball so much...

I miss occasional 1 one on one moments.


Spacing makes it far easier to isolate effectively today than previous eras..

Just ask Lebron how much extra room the spacing gave him in the 2015 Finals when he was isolating on every possession.. There's never been isolations that gave the ballhandler so much room - ever - and it's due to the spacing.

However, we don't see isolations as often OVERALL anymore, because sufficient 3-point shooting exists to drive-and-kick for 3-pointers (instead of 2-pointers), which turned drive-and-kick into a more efficient option than 1-on-1.. It's a mathematical fact.

But back when sufficient 3-point shooting personnel didn't exist, teams could only drive-and-kick for 2-pointers, so 1-on-1 was the better option.. Essentially, today's game has a more efficient offensive option (drive-and-kick), which makes it an easier game.. :confusedshrug:





the current style emphasizes team ball so much


The SPACING is what allows it.

It's funny how you guys always omit the spacing, even though that's the CAUSE of today's teamwork.. Teams didn't just wake up one day and decide to move the ball more - the spacing allows today's ball movement.

That's why I laughed earlier itt when BigKAT posted a gif (http://i.makeagif.com/media/10-22-2016/CQIMm7.gif) that he thought exhibited great passing, since today's spacing allows that kind of play on EVERY play.. Those plays aren't rare - they're commonplace and therefore NOT great.

Otoh, the lack of spacing in previous eras made great plays more rare, which is how it's supposed to be.. I don't need immediate gratification - i WANT to wait for a great play, that way I know it's truly great and can appreciate it more.