Is Dirk Nowitzki an Underachiever?

[BigKAT]

One of the most talented players in history, an all time great, 6th all the all time scoring list.

He revolutionized what being a big guy meant, his stroke turned defenses upside down and his teams were consistently superb and quite often Elite.

He has more 13 20+ PPG seasons in his career, and had been a decent rebounder for most, if not all of it.

I never got to watch the guy in his prime.
I've seen some games from the 2006 Finals, and 2011 and on. But that's it.

Does it feel to you guys like he had more then two final appearences in him?
Like one championship and one MVP is a not enough? Should he have garnered one of Nash's MVP's? Or perhaps won a title in the vacuum years between the Shaq/Kobe Lakers and the Boston-Lakers title fights?

I'd like to know what people who got to watch him consistently think.
Is 1 MVP + 1 Title a fair achivement or do you think he should've achieved more?

My feeling is that he never really had a Superstar next to him the way Kobe, Lebron and Duncan had (Well, duncan had Tony/Ginobili/Pop, rather then one superstar player like Wade, Shaq or Gasol.)

So what are your thoughts?

Underachiever or not?

[FreezingTsmoove]

Mark Cuban is an underacheiver

[bobopenguin]

d-whistle and referees owned dirk.

[Dragonyeuw]

An MVP, ring w/FMVP, and a career that will end with over 30K points? I would say no.

[Sarcastic]

Hell no. He's got an MVP and a ring, which is way more than anyone would've predicted before his career started. If anything he's an overachiever, and lucky he played in a soft era that allowed jump shooting 7 footers.

[tpols]

not really .. he's played in a conference featuring Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, Duncan, Durant, Westbrook etc most of whom had stacked rosters themselves.. If you look at his help in hindsight it really was pretty poor compared to what he was facing.

[aj1987]

not really .. he's played in a conference featuring Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, Duncan, Durant, Westbrook etc most of whom had stacked rosters themselves.. If you look at his help in hindsight it really was pretty poor compared to what he was facing.
He lost to the Suns, Warriors, Hornets, and Nuggets.

Underachiever? Nope. Dude has a shit ton of accolades and is a top 20-25 GOAT.

[Sarcastic]

An underachiever is a guy like Derrick Coleman, who had as much talent as Barkley and Malone, but never realized it.

[BigKAT]

i didnt even make mention of the suns, but they were a great team as well, one of the best in the mid 00s, featuring Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire. The Hornets of course had a prime Chris Paul.. and i didnt mention him either.. also leaving out HOFers like manu, parker, pau etc. It is unreal how many all time greats he has had to contend against while not really ever having a dominant second option himself for any decent stretch of time.


Yeah was wondering about that.

Who is considered Dirk's best teammate? The best he's ever played with?

Kobe - Shaq
Lebron - Wade (first 2 years)
MJ - Pippen
Duncan - Prime Ginobili perhaps? Or late career David Robinson.

You got my point. Whose the best 'Support' or 'Co-star' Dirk had?

[tpols]

He lost to the Suns, Warriors, Hornets, and Nuggets.

Underachiever? Nope. Dude has a shit ton of accolades and is a top 20-25 GOAT.

i didnt even make mention of the suns, but they were a great team as well, one of the best in the mid 00s, featuring Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire. The Hornets of course had a prime Chris Paul and david West.. and i didnt mention him either.. also leaving out HOFers like manu, parker, pau etc. It is unreal how many all time greats he has had to contend against while not really ever having a dominant second option himself for any decent stretch of time. and then in his only title win he takes down Dwayne Wade and Lebron James?? i dont know how you could even ask for more.

[tpols]

Yeah was wondering about that.

Who is considered Dirk's best teammate? The best he's ever played with?

Kobe - Shaq
Lebron - Wade (first 2 years)
MJ - Pippen
Duncan - Prime Ginobili perhaps? Or late career David Robinson.

You got my point. Whose the best 'Support' or 'Co-star' Dirk had?

steve Nash but it was at a time of Lakers and Spurs who were better relatively (kings also).. cant really blame him much for not winning there especially since himself and nash took turns getting knocked out with injury.


besides that ? Josh Howard? Jason Terry? idk.. the list is poor compared to what most have had.

[tamaraw08]

An underachiever is a guy like Derrick Coleman, who had as much talent as Barkley and Malone, but never realized it.

Great point about Coleman. What about Kemp, or Sheed Wallace or CWebb?

Does a great coach make a star look better? I am asking cuz Dirk benefitted from Carlisle but then again he looked good under other coaches too, unlike a guy like Joe Smith...

[qrich]

No, an underachiever would be someone like an Elton Brand.

Dirk was able to lead his teams to the playoffs, consistently, and even gritted his way to a ring.

[ArbitraryWater]

fcking retarded question...

from your OP it looks like you think he wasnt supplied with enough help yet he is the one underachieving?

Dude, stfu

[aj1987]

i didnt even make mention of the suns, but they were a great team as well, one of the best in the mid 00s, featuring Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire. The Hornets of course had a prime Chris Paul and david West.. and i didnt mention him either.. also leaving out HOFers like manu, parker, pau etc. It is unreal how many all time greats he has had to contend against while not really ever having a dominant second option himself for any decent stretch of time. and then in his only title win he takes down Dwayne Wade and Lebron James?? i dont know how you could even ask for more.
You're literally just throwing names out there now. Dirk never had to contend with a prime Shaq, KG, KD, WB, etc.. The Suns were actually good for ~2-3 years. The only time Dirk ever faced Shaq in the PO's was in the '06 Finals, IIRC. Lets also not forget that Dirk won his only ring because of a massive LeBron meltdown. Dude would be ringless if it wasn't for that.

[ArbitraryWater]

He lost to the Suns, Warriors, Hornets, and Nuggets.

Underachiever? Nope. Dude has a shit ton of accolades and is a top 20-25 GOAT.

yea, so? :facepalm

[Pointguard]

While most here had him as one before the ring, I wasn't one of them. I think he did well. One could say that if they have him as a top 20 GOAT while not being a real top tier scorer. While he was almost anti-clutch before 2011 he was always winning and dependable.

[BoutPractice]

He achieved his potential and then some (he probably could have carried the Mavs to the title in 2006 in spite of everything if he had shot the ball just a bit better, but would 2011 have happened then?)...

Mostly he was unlucky with the teams he had to deal with. When your sidekick is Josh Howard, and you win 67 games in the regular season, I wouldn't call that underachieving.

Had he had better teams surrounding him, he would've had more deep playoff runs... but most likely the same number of titles given the competition in the West.

[tpols]

You're literally just throwing names out there now. Dirk never had to contend with a prime Shaq, KG, KD, WB, etc.. The Suns were actually good for ~2-3 years. The only time Dirk ever faced Shaq in the PO's was in the '06 Finals, IIRC. Lets also not forget that Dirk won his only ring because of a massive LeBron meltdown. Dude would be ringless if it wasn't for that.


you're exposing yourself.. Dirk has faced prime versions of Garnett, KD, and Westbrook all in the playoffs multiple times.. and come out on top more often than not.


yes, im throwing names out there.. names of highly regarded HOFers hes had to contend with through the entirety of his career.

[aj1987]

yea, so? :facepalm
Learn to follow a conversation, AutisticWater.


you're exposing yourself.. Dirk has faced prime versions of Garnett, KD, and Westbrook all in the playoffs multiple times.. and come out on top more often than not.
KG - He faced him literally once in the PO's and it was back in '02 when Dirk had a really good team and KG was on a shit one.

KD/WB - '11 wasn't KD's prime and neither was WB's that's the only time he beat them. Got murked by them the very next season.

Shaq - He never even faced him in the PO's until '06.

But yeah, he faced them "multiple times" and "come out on top more often than not". :roll:


yes, im throwing names out there.. names of highly regarded HOFers hes had to contend with through the entirety of his career.
Why don't you throw in MJ, McGrady, Yao, Curry, Irving, Kawhi, Blake, Harden, Dwight, etc. in there as well?

[BigKAT]

He achieved his potential and then some (he probably could have carried the Mavs to the title in 2006 in spite of everything if he had shot the ball just a bit better, but would 2011 have happened then?)...

Mostly he was unlucky with the teams he had to deal with. When your sidekick is Josh Howard, and you win 67 games in the regular season, I wouldn't call that underachieving.

Had he had better teams surrounding him, he would've had more deep playoff runs... but most likely the same number of titles given the competition in the West.

So you conclude that he isn't an underachiever.
You say that you don't see another year in which he could've gone all the way?

That could very possibly be the truth.
Correct me if I wrong, but he didn't lose to the Spurs/Lakers that often in the playoffs, did he?

It seems like he was not eliminated by the eventual champions as often as I thought, which means that the 'Stacked' west didn't have as much to do with his lack of rings.

Though as some people stated here, 1 Ring + 1 MVP + 6th all time scoring and rising is not an underachivement by anyone's book. Which is reasonble as well.

I just wondered if perhaps with the right teammates Dirk could've been a Top 15 player, or perhaps even a Top 10, considering how unique he is offensivly, and honestly, his longetivity is just awe inspiring. I think he is on some Kareem/Duncan level of production in his late age. Of course he was never as good as Peak Kareem , but just in terms of production for so long he seems like he is in that club.

So perhaps, just perhaps, if he was coupled with a younger star (Tony Parker or Magic Johngson) We would've seen more success from him.

Dirk is an ATG, no one is arguing otherwise. I'm just wondering, if considering all the Free Agents that scorned the Mavs, and the fact Carlilse was not his coach before 08', than things could've worked out -EVEN- better for him.

[BigKAT]

fcking retarded question...

from your OP it looks like you think he wasnt supplied with enough help yet he is the one underachieving?

Dude, stfu

Also,

That question is posed in a way that could go both ways.
Yes, or No. I don't provide an answer in my OP.

No need to get so upset.

[ArbitraryWater]

Learn to follow a conversation, AutisticWater.

gotta post everything twice for your slow ass

"If you look at his help in hindsight it really was pretty poor compared to what he was facing."

You: "He lost to the Suns, Warriors, Hornets, and Nuggets"

... how does that refute anything he said? Have you ever for your life event checked out one of those series'?

follow the context, dummie

[tpols]

gotta post everything twice for your slow ass

"If you look at his help in hindsight it really was pretty poor compared to what he was facing."

You: "He lost to the Suns, Warriors, Hornets, and Nuggets"

... how does that refute anything he said? Have you ever for your life event checked out one of those series'?

follow the context, dummie


i think aj got confused on terms 'contend with' with versus 'beat' .. just because Dirk takes down Duncan, or Kobe, or Lebron or whoever, now we cant include them on his competition faced list? So we just cherrypick the worst teams he's lost too and thats supposed to be a better summary? it doesnt make sense..

.. and is funny because even the poorest teams Dirk has lost to still had some unreal talent

[tpols]

KD/WB - '11 wasn't KD's prime and neither was WB's that's the only time he beat them. Got murked by them the very next season.



dude.. The Mavs just faced Westbrook and Durant last year in the playoffs.. KD and Westbrook have been frequent opponents for Dirk.. you said that Dirk never had to contend with them.. what in the actual **** are you going on about?

[SCdac]

I don't think he's an underachiever necessarily, him and his team were just not as good as others.

He's no Duncan and no Shaq so in comparisons to them he'll inevitably fall short. That's not underachieving per se. He's not a defensive stalwart or anchor or shotblocker really. I'd probably take Kobe over him, Lebron easily. Would prefer KG over him also. Even a prime Wade is tempting but injuries hurt him. Malone and Barkley is where the comparisons seem right. Being a big man who plays alot like a SF/SG was both a blessing and a curse for dirk. Made him tougher to guard but he also got pushed around in some years by james posey, stephen jackson, david west, etc.

If anybody's underachievers its his Mavs team in general. They went over the cap almost every season. Bunch of first and second round losses for them before and after 2011 with Dirk at the lead. His and Mavs biggest flop was definitely 2007 (his MVP year), they got owned bad by a non-championship team. People make building around him sound so easy, but it takes alot and the perfect storm of events (Lebron collapse perhaps? credit to shawn marion and deshawn stevenson). He couldn't have won with just an fabricio oberto or rasho nesterovic or andrew Bynum at center, Chandler was dpoy quality player and former #2 overall draft pick. Kidd regardless of age is a first ballot hof'er and he lead the mavs in assists, steals, and three's in their championship run

Underachiever.. don't think so... but if you expected him to be a top-15 player all time from the outset (doubt anybody did) sure he underachieved... just depends on perspective and expectations.. But he was always a Euro who played on the perimeter and took time to toughen up. But he did toughen up and eventually cut down on three's .. I think it's safe to say his franchise underachieved though, given all the money cuban put into it and all the playoff appearances. But hey 1 championship is more than many teams have, so again, it's perspective.

[aj1987]

gotta post everything twice for your slow ass

"If you look at his help in hindsight it really was pretty poor compared to what he was facing."

You: "He lost to the Suns, Warriors, Hornets, and Nuggets"

... how does that refute anything he said? Have you ever for your life event checked out one of those series'?

follow the context, dummie
AutisticWater, the Warriors were a shit team and Dirk's team won 67 games that season. They lost as the #1 seed to the #8 seed. I know that it's German in you trying to rewrite history, but it's a pointless effort.

Dirk was pretty much labeled a choker, who couldn't do shit in the PO's until LeBron's massive and humiliating choke happened.

You started watching basketball 3 or 4 seasons ago. I've been watching since before you were born. Quit acting like you know shit about basketball from the early/mid '00's, the years when you were still sitting in your diapers.


dude.. The Mavs just faced Westbrook and Durant last year in the playoffs.. KD and Westbrook have been frequent opponents for Dirk.. you said that Dirk never had to contend with them.. what in the actual **** are you going on about?
Dirk is way past his prime and on a shit team. When he was actually able to win rings, he never faced a prime WB and KD. Technically they were his opponents, but Dirk literally had no chance of beating them as the best player on the team. The one game they won, IIRC, Dirk didn't even do anything in the 4th Q and wasn't the best player on the team either.

Also, when did Dirk "more often than not" come out on top against KD and WB?

Once again -

Shaq - Never faced him in the PO's until '06 (when he was past his prime and that wasn't what you were talking about either)
KG - Faced him ONCE when he was on a shit team
KD/WB - Never faced them during their primes (when Dirk could still ball)

Duncan and Kobe are the only legit players he beat and props to Dirk for doing that.

[Dbrog]

Yeah was wondering about that.

Who is considered Dirk's best teammate? The best he's ever played with?

Kobe - Shaq
Lebron - Wade (first 2 years)
MJ - Pippen
Duncan - Prime Ginobili perhaps? Or late career David Robinson.

You got my point. Whose the best 'Support' or 'Co-star' Dirk had?

I'm surprised no one has given you a real answer for this. Dirk oftentimes had what would be considered "stacked" teams year in and year out and was known as a choker for so long because he could not win with these. I remember a fair number of years where at the start of the season, most people had the Mavs above the Spurs and even competing with the Lakers. The notion of Dirk not having help is pretty laughable...ask KG.

Dirk had Najera for many years who was basically Bruce Bowen type defender and all around scrappy dude.Also idk how some people haven't mentioned Finley. He was a 20ppg dude for many years on the Mavs and was always scary to face...hard-nosed dude. Nick Van Exel could straight light it up off the bench not to mention LaFrentz at times from the center position. Then you go a little later and you get prime Jamison and Howard who both were allstars at the time of Dirk's prime. Specifically people thought their 04' lineup was insane (Howard not great yet but they picked up mr shimmy Walker). The following year they get still good stackhouse and van horn not to mention a great defensive Dampier..though they overpaid for him and lost Nash. Then, of course, came the JET and Kidd era where they had again a great team in comparison to the league.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Underachiever? Historically?

Nah.

A few of his teams have underachieved though. Don't see how anybody rational can dispute that.

[aj1987]

BTW, tpols, since you're pretty much agreeing with AutisticWater on all matters, do you also agree with him that Dirk > Kobe all time?

[LakersForlife]

nah FMVP,regular season MVP.. got screwed by refs back in 2007 where dwade averaged 20 ft's a game

[NBAGOAT]

idts. Dirk was rarely on shit teams but his teams never really had championship level talent besides 03 with nash/finley and ofc he got injured that year. He's one of the more underrated offensive anchors of all time. Guys like Monta Ellis and Jason Terry had some of their best years playing with Dirk and it's no coincidence. Even in the last few years, he can still anchor a mediocre team's offense well enough to lead it to the playoffs.

[aj1987]

nah FMVP,regular season MVP.. got screwed by refs back in 2007 where dwade averaged 20 ft's a game
There are 3 statements in the bolded part and none of them are correct.


He's one of the more underrated offensive anchors of all time.
I don't think he's an underrated scorer. He has over a dozen 20 PPG seasons and is 6th all time in scoring. A legendary scorer and the stats back it up.

[Fire Colangelo]

The Mavs sucked before Dirk got there, and will suck after Dirk retires.

Underachiever? I don't think so. I can't think of anyone else that can take an average supporting cast, and lead them to 50+ wins year after year after year.

[Bosnian Sajo]

I never got to watch the guy in his prime.
I've seen some games from the 2006 Finals, and 2011 and on. But that's it.


How young are you?

[tpols]

Duncan and Kobe are the only legit players he beat and props to Dirk for doing that.

Lebron James?
Dwayne Wade?
Kevin Garnett?
Steve Nash?
Kevin Durant?
Russel Westbrook?

are Manu Ginobili and Tony Parkers legit players too?


:biggums:


Dirk has a long hit list of high profile guys he has taken out at one time or another. I simply stated i believe his help wasnt quite up to par with a lot of what those guys had.. and that he did overachieve given his circumstances. You came in saying blah blah blah he lost to these teams nuggets hornets etc as if that somehow invalidated all the guys he faced outside those series.


and now you're saying the only "legit players" Dirk has ever beaten were Kobe and Duncan.. which is another falsehood.








I dont agree with AW on everything.. what would make you assume that from agreeing on one thing it has to be everything ?

[NBAGOAT]

There are 3 statements in the bolded part and none of them are correct.


I don't think he's an underrated scorer. He has over a dozen 20 PPG seasons and is 6th all time in scoring. A legendary scorer and the stats back it up.

true but I think they still underrate him. I'm going guess you still have a lot ofguys like Wade and Malone over him as scorers and they definitely have better stats. However. He's lead so many mediocre teams to top 5 offenses. Also I've seen good stats evidence backing it up that Dirk was more important than Nash on offense for those early 2000's mavs and Nash is also considered one of the elite offensive players of all time.

[HurricaneKid]

Remember when there was a thread about how BigKAT was the best poster on the board? Good times. After this thread he is more likely to be in the "dumbest things said at ISH".

Dirk is every bit the worker that Kobe is. He just isn't as self congratulatory about it. That 2006 team that he carried to the Finals, do you know who was 2nd on the team in WS? Jason Terry. That is the kind of roster he has carried to the Finals. Or in 2011 when he won a title, who was the second best player on that team? He has a MVP and a FMVP.

Dirk is an ALL TIME GREAT. If you haven't recognized it by now go back and look. He is 6th all time in points. 7th all time in WS (and could get to 5th behind only MJ, Kareem, Wilt and Karl). His team has won more games over the years than you could expect nearly ANYONE to carry those mediocre rosters to.

[Jameerthefear]

he probably would have one more if marc cuban wasnt bad

[aj1987]

Lebron James?
Dwayne Wade?
Kevin Garnett?
Steve Nash?
Kevin Durant?
Russel Westbrook?

are Manu Ginobili and Tony Parkers legit players too?
In the WC, fool. Isn't that what you were talking about in the first place? Yeah, I did forget Nash.


Dirk has a long hit list of high profile guys he has taken out at one time or another. I simply stated i believe his help wasnt quite up to par with a lot of what those guys had.. and that he did overachieve given his circumstances. You came in saying blah blah blah he lost to these teams nuggets hornets etc as if that somehow invalidated all the guys he faced outside those series.
Dirk's teams are getting hella underrated now. Either Dirk had significantly more impact than Kobe or he had great impact and a very good team around him. You don't win 67 games with below par help. A lot of those teams he had are vastly underrated.


true but I think they still underrate him. I'm going guess you still have a lot ofguys like Wade and Malone over him as scorers and they definitely have better stats. However. He's lead so many mediocre teams to top 5 offenses. Also I've seen good stats evidence backing it up that Dirk was more important than Nash on offense for those early 2000's mavs and Nash is also considered one of the elite offensive players of all time.
Strictly scoring? I'll pick Wade over Dirk. Running an offense and scoring? Dirk has no case over Wade. Sure, Dirk might've better advanced metrics than Wade. I wouldn't doubt that for a second. Advanced metrics historically haven't been kind to Wade.

EDIT: Just checked.

OBPM (career):

Wade - 4.3
Dirk - 3.4

OBPM (peak):

Wade - 8.7
Career - 5.8

I really hate those "advanced" metrics though.

[BigKAT]

How young are you?

I'm 22.
But I'm not American.
I've been following European Basketball for quite some time.
Since about 2008, When I was about 13-14 years old.

Even went to some games.
I've only started watching the NBA a few years ago.

[HurricaneKid]

Dirk's teams are getting hella underrated now. Either Dirk had significantly more impact than Kobe or he had great impact and a very good team around him. You don't win 67 games with below par help. A lot of those teams he had are vastly underrated.


LeBron won 66 games with a **** squad. And that 67 win team Dirk had JET and Josh Howard as its #2 and #3 options. Howard was good for a few years. But he wasn't THAT good. And JET... well no.

And Dirk DOES have 27 more WS in fewer years than Kobe. And his RAPM is significantly higher as well. And those are about the biggest sample sizes you will ever see.

[NBAGOAT]

In the WC, fool. Isn't that what you were talking about in the first place? Yeah, I did forget Nash.


Dirk's teams are getting hella underrated now. Either Dirk had significantly more impact than Kobe or he had great impact and a very good team around him. You don't win 67 games with below par help. A lot of those teams he had are vastly underrated.


Strictly scoring? I'll pick Wade over Dirk. Running an offense and scoring? Dirk has no case over Wade. Sure, Dirk might've better advanced metrics than Wade. I wouldn't doubt that for a second. Advanced metrics historically haven't been kind to Wade.

EDIT: Just checked.

OBPM (career):

Wade - 4.3
Dirk - 3.4

OBPM (peak):

Wade - 8.7
Career - 5.8

I really hate those "advanced" metrics though.

see I disagree but I don't want to sound like AW. Those teams were not shit like 06 Lakers or 09 Heat or even 09 Cavs but they didn't have championship level talent. If they were, his peak be put at lebron's level. Still,leading those teams to 4th, 1st, and 2nd in ortg from 05-07 is damn impressive you gotta admit. Running an offense is still in wade's favor since he's been a better playmaker but I'm just talking being an offense anchor. Dirk's spacing effect is GOAT level. Wade's spacing effect is underrated if you just look at him not being a 3pt shooter as you have shown in previous posts but it's still not at Dirk's level. Also what about Malone? He has stats as good as almost anyone and obviously better than Dirk(a 30+ppg season, 12 25ppg+ seasons, almost identical career ts%). I'm guessing you're not as sure about that one however. Dirk's spacing opens up the floor for everyone else. Small examples include how like Monta/Dirk and Terry/Dirk were always near the top for most effective pnr duo's. I'm going steal a post from colts18 on realGM who uses +/- stats which are affected a lot by context but still pretty useful.




2001: 53 wins, 4th in O rating
-11.3 off, +20.1 plus/minus
109.4 O rating on court, 99.9 off, +9.5

2002- 57 wins, 1st in O rating
-3.0 off, +10.3 plus/minus
114.6 O Rating on court, 105.1 off, +9.5

2003-60 wins, 1st in O rating
Dirk: -8.8 off court, +21.7 Plus/minus
113.7 O rating on, 99.4 off, +14.3

2004- 52 wins, 1st in O rating: Rated the #1 offense of all-time by O rating
-2.0 off court, +9.2 plus/minus
113.9 O rating on, 106.8 off, +7.1

2005- 58 wins, 4th in O rating
DIrk: -6 off court, +15.3
112.1 O rating on court, 102 off, +12.1 in offense

2006- 60 wins, 1st in O rating
Dirk: -0.6 off court, +8.5
115.4 O rating on court, 104.5 off, +10.9

2007-67 wins, 2nd in O rating
Dirk: -1.6 off court, +12.4
116.6 O rating on court, 101.9 off, +14.7
Very much a deserved MVP


2008- 51 wins, 8th in O rating
Dirk: -4.4 off court, +12.7
115.6 O rating on court, 104 off, +11.6

2009- 50 wins, 5th in O rating
Dirk: -4.2 off court, +8
112.9 O rating on court, 106.3 off, +6.6

2010- 55 wins, 10th in O rating
Dirk: -6.2 off court, +11.7
111.6 O rating on court, 106.1 off, +5.5

2011- 57 wins, 8th in O rating
Dirk: -6.1 off court, +16.3
114.4 O rating on court, 104.3 off, +10.1

So here are Dirk's averages
56.4 wins, 4.1 in O rating (4 #1 finishes, 8 top 5, 11/11 in top 10)
-5.1 Off court, +13.9 +/- (He's +14.1 if you include 2012 into this)
113.3 O rating on court, 102.3 off, +11 on offense

That's right, in every single season plus minus is available, Dirk's team has been a negative when he was off the court. He won 50+ games in every single one of those seasons, yet every single season they sucked without him especially on offense. That +11 on offense puts him up there with MJ and Nash as the GOAT of offense

[SCdac]

Remember when there was a thread about how BigKAT was the best poster on the board? Good times. After this thread he is more likely to be in the "dumbest things said at ISH".

Dirk is every bit the worker that Kobe is. He just isn't as self congratulatory about it. That 2006 team that he carried to the Finals, do you know who was 2nd on the team in WS? Jason Terry. That is the kind of roster he has carried to the Finals. Or in 2011 when he won a title, who was the second best player on that team? He has a MVP and a FMVP.

Dirk is an ALL TIME GREAT. If you haven't recognized it by now go back and look. He is 6th all time in points. 7th all time in WS (and could get to 5th behind only MJ, Kareem, Wilt and Karl). His team has won more games over the years than you could expect nearly ANYONE to carry those mediocre rosters to.

I'm not even a Kobe fan, but I'd take Kobe 10 times out of 10 over Dirk, despite Lakers missing the playoffs (which the Mavs have done also). Just a better all around player.

And to be fair, in 2006-2007 Josh Howard emerged as an All-Star and Avery Johnson won COTY the year prior while turning the Mavs into a team that actually played elite defense (Avery coming from the Spurs' camp, even admitting to adapting some of the playbook)... Josh Howard at the time was drawing comparisons to Manu Ginobili in terms of impact right here on ISH.

The 2006 Mavs won 60 games and 2007 Mavs won 67 games and it generally takes a good, cohesive team to win that much.

I don't think anyone would claim he had the best or most stacked teams ever, but it would be disingenuous to say Dirk's best teams were "mediocre" based on only his #2 option. His best teams were deep. Dude played with Nash like 12 months before Nash won multiple MVP's

How many GM's over the years said they would have liked to start their team with Dirk above all other players?

[aj1987]

see I disagree but I don't want to sound like AW. Those teams were not shit like 06 Lakers or 09 Heat or even 09 Cavs but they didn't have championship level talent. If they did, his peak be put at lebron's level. Still,leading those teams to 4th, 1st, and 2nd in ortg from 05-07 is damn impressive you gotta admit. Running an offense is still in wade's favor since he's been a better playmaker but I'm just talking being an offense anchor.
Come on, dude. Peak Dirk wasn't on prime LeBron's level. Prime/peak LeBron/Wade the among the best scorers and defenders in the league, while also being elite passers.

Also, it's quite difficult to quantify Wade's offense with ORtg, as he has never really played with on a good team (outside his prime and without Shaq/LeBron).


Dirk's spacing effect is GOAT level. Wade's spacing effect is underrated if you just look at him not being a 3pt shooter as you have shown in previous posts but it's still not at Dirk's level.
Actually, Wade was ranked 10th in respect rating and Dirk 47th.

To recap, gravity score measures how closely a player's defender sticks to him off the ball. Higher gravity scores generally belong to bigs because their primary defender must stay close and also protect the basket. On the other hand, guards typically have lower gravity scores simply because defenders have more liberty to shade off their guy on the perimeter. But elite shooters typically generate more attention off the ball.

Then there's distraction score, which quantifies how much a player's defender is willing to help off the ball to stop the ball handler. The worse he is as a shooter, the more likely his defender will be distracted by the ball handler. To identify the most effective floor-spacers in the NBA, I created a composite score that combines the two metrics. The result is what I've called "respect rating," which has now been translated to a 1-to-100 scale with 100 being the most magnetic (think sharpshooters) and 1 being least magnetic (think non-scoring bigs).

1. Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors | Respect rating: 97.9
Gravity score: 97.3 | Distraction score: 98.4

2. Kyle Korver, Atlanta Hawks | Respect rating: 96.0
Gravity score: 92.3 | Distraction score: 99.7

3. Klay Thompson, Golden State Warriors | Respect rating: 94.4
Gravity score: 89.6 | Distraction score: 99.1

4. Mike Conley, Memphis Grizzlies | Respect rating: 87.5
Gravity score: 79.3 | Distraction score: 95.7

5. Gordon Hayward, Utah Jazz | Respect rating: 84.0
Gravity score: 72.1 | Distraction score: 95.9

6. James Harden, Houston Rockets | Respect rating: 83.3
Gravity score: 67.2 | Distraction score: 99.3

7. J.R. Smith, New York Knicks | Respect rating: 83.0
Gravity score: 89.0 | Distraction score: 76.9

8. Jamal Crawford, Los Angeles Clippers | Respect rating: 81.6
Gravity score: 67.9 | Distraction score: 95.2

9. Manu Ginobili, San Antonio Spurs | Respect rating: 81.4
Gravity score: 65.4 | Distraction score: 97.3

10. Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat | Respect rating: 79.7
Gravity score: 82.2 | Distraction score: 77.1

Once again, Wade is the interesting outlier to the idea that it's typically 3pt shooters dominating this list, because he's such a crafty and opportunistic off-ball slasher and defenses key in on him even more with LeBron gone. JR Smith might be small-sample-size noise (he's barely above the 500 minute cut-off and ranked 118th last year).

Curry, Korver, and Klay are just in a class of their own in Gravity score (aside from JR's probably fluke-ish score), with Curry being even significantly higher than the other two. But Curry's only 4th in "Distraction" score; no one touches Korver there and so far it's actually Harden whom defenses have been second least likely to help off of.

He theorizes that the max contracts may have something to do with Klay's (only up 5 spots but definitely on another tier now) and Hayward's (24th to 5th) leaps up the rankings, though I disagree because we know Klay's taken his game to another level and Hayward's been much better from downtown. Plus, I don't know where he ranked before but Chandler Parsons is waaaaay down the list (see below). He also notes drop-offs from Chris Paul and JJ Redick from the top 20 last year to outside of the top 50 in Gravity (possibly due to a big increase in long 2s from Griffin)

Notables: Kobe Bryant (13th); Derrick Rose (14th); Carmelo Anthony (31st); Russell Westbrook (39th); Chris Paul (45th); Dirk Nowitzki (47th); LaMarcus Aldridge (72nd); LeBron James (73rd); Tony Parker (77th); Chris Bosh (86th); Kyrie Irving (97th); Lance Stephenson (99th); Anthony Davis (114th); Monta Ellis (168th); Kevin Love (177th); Rajon Rondo (182nd); Tony Allen (188th); Chandler Parsons (211st); Elfrid Payton (223rd).

Heck, Wade was getting doubled and tripled a hella lot even in the PO's last season. A completely out of his prime Wade.


Also what about Malone? He has stats as good as almost anyone and obviously better than Dirk(a 30+ppg season, 12 25ppg+ seasons, almost identical career ts%). I'm guessing you're not as sure about that one however. Dirk's spacing opens up the floor for everyone else. Small examples include how like Monta/Dirk and Terry/Dirk were always near the top for most effective pnr duo's. I'm going steal a post from colts18 on realGM who uses +/- stats which are affected a lot by context but still pretty useful.
If you picked them in a vacuum and were told to build teams around them to win a ring, it'd be easier to build around Malone. Malone is an elite scorer, rebounder, defender, and is actually quite a capable passer as well. He's a more well rounded player than Dirk.

[NBAGOAT]

Come on, dude. Peak Dirk wasn't on prime LeBron's level. Prime/peak LeBron/Wade the among the best scorers and defenders in the league, while also being elite passers.

Also, it's quite difficult to quantify Wade's offense with ORtg, as he has never really played with on a good team (outside his prime and without Shaq/LeBron).


Actually, Wade was ranked 10th in respect rating and Dirk 47th.

To recap, gravity score measures how closely a player's defender sticks to him off the ball. Higher gravity scores generally belong to bigs because their primary defender must stay close and also protect the basket. On the other hand, guards typically have lower gravity scores simply because defenders have more liberty to shade off their guy on the perimeter. But elite shooters typically generate more attention off the ball.

Then there's distraction score, which quantifies how much a player's defender is willing to help off the ball to stop the ball handler. The worse he is as a shooter, the more likely his defender will be distracted by the ball handler. To identify the most effective floor-spacers in the NBA, I created a composite score that combines the two metrics. The result is what I've called "respect rating," which has now been translated to a 1-to-100 scale with 100 being the most magnetic (think sharpshooters) and 1 being least magnetic (think non-scoring bigs).

1. Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors | Respect rating: 97.9
Gravity score: 97.3 | Distraction score: 98.4

2. Kyle Korver, Atlanta Hawks | Respect rating: 96.0
Gravity score: 92.3 | Distraction score: 99.7

3. Klay Thompson, Golden State Warriors | Respect rating: 94.4
Gravity score: 89.6 | Distraction score: 99.1

4. Mike Conley, Memphis Grizzlies | Respect rating: 87.5
Gravity score: 79.3 | Distraction score: 95.7

5. Gordon Hayward, Utah Jazz | Respect rating: 84.0
Gravity score: 72.1 | Distraction score: 95.9

6. James Harden, Houston Rockets | Respect rating: 83.3
Gravity score: 67.2 | Distraction score: 99.3

7. J.R. Smith, New York Knicks | Respect rating: 83.0
Gravity score: 89.0 | Distraction score: 76.9

8. Jamal Crawford, Los Angeles Clippers | Respect rating: 81.6
Gravity score: 67.9 | Distraction score: 95.2

9. Manu Ginobili, San Antonio Spurs | Respect rating: 81.4
Gravity score: 65.4 | Distraction score: 97.3

10. Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat | Respect rating: 79.7
Gravity score: 82.2 | Distraction score: 77.1

Once again, Wade is the interesting outlier to the idea that it's typically 3pt shooters dominating this list, because he's such a crafty and opportunistic off-ball slasher and defenses key in on him even more with LeBron gone. JR Smith might be small-sample-size noise (he's barely above the 500 minute cut-off and ranked 118th last year).

Curry, Korver, and Klay are just in a class of their own in Gravity score (aside from JR's probably fluke-ish score), with Curry being even significantly higher than the other two. But Curry's only 4th in "Distraction" score; no one touches Korver there and so far it's actually Harden whom defenses have been second least likely to help off of.

He theorizes that the max contracts may have something to do with Klay's (only up 5 spots but definitely on another tier now) and Hayward's (24th to 5th) leaps up the rankings, though I disagree because we know Klay's taken his game to another level and Hayward's been much better from downtown. Plus, I don't know where he ranked before but Chandler Parsons is waaaaay down the list (see below). He also notes drop-offs from Chris Paul and JJ Redick from the top 20 last year to outside of the top 50 in Gravity (possibly due to a big increase in long 2s from Griffin)

Notables: Kobe Bryant (13th); Derrick Rose (14th); Carmelo Anthony (31st); Russell Westbrook (39th); Chris Paul (45th); Dirk Nowitzki (47th); LaMarcus Aldridge (72nd); LeBron James (73rd); Tony Parker (77th); Chris Bosh (86th); Kyrie Irving (97th); Lance Stephenson (99th); Anthony Davis (114th); Monta Ellis (168th); Kevin Love (177th); Rajon Rondo (182nd); Tony Allen (188th); Chandler Parsons (211st); Elfrid Payton (223rd).

Heck, Wade was getting doubled and tripled a hella lot even in the PO's last season. A completely out of his prime Wade.


If you picked them in a vacuum and were told to build teams around them to win a ring, it'd be easier to build around Malone. Malone is an elite scorer, rebounder, defender, and is actually quite a capable passer as well. He's a more well rounded player than Dirk.

well I said Dirk wasn't on peak Lebron's level to kind of agree with you about Dirk's supporting cast not being shit.

I agree, it is hard to judge Wade off offensive rating since he's had shit teams but Kobe leading the Lakers to 8th in 06 and Tmac leading the Magic to 10th in 03 are things to keep in mind since most people find those supporting casts comparable.

Seeing how Curry, Korver, and Klay are at the top, these scores are most likely from the past 2 years. I'm far more interested in seeing what Dirk and Wade's gravity scores were in their primes(doubt they exist). Author also mentioned how Wade gets more respect with lebron gone so ofc there's context that needs to be taken into account.

Can't really argue with your logic for Malone but I was asking more, who would you take as just an offensive player.

[houston]

Underachiever? Historically?

Nah.

A few of his teams have underachieved though. Don't see how anybody rational can dispute that.


yup i agree with this

[aj1987]

well I said Dirk wasn't on peak Lebron's level to kind of agree with you about Dirk's supporting cast not being shit.

I agree, it is hard to judge Wade off offensive rating since he's had shit teams but Kobe leading the Lakers to 8th in 06 and Tmac leading the Magic to 10th in 03 are things to keep in mind since most people find those supporting casts comparable.
Sure, as I said, "advanced" metrics are not particularly kind towards Wade (except PER). Also, LO on the '06 Lakers was better than any player than Wade had. The TEAMS had better ORtg, but when you look at the players' ORtg:

Wade in '09 & '10 - 114
McGrady in '03 - 116
Kobe in '06 - 114

None of them have particularly good ORtg's. Never topped 120 in their careers either.


Seeing how Curry, Korver, and Klay are at the top, these scores are most likely from the past 2 years. I'm far more interested in seeing what Dirk and Wade's gravity scores were in their primes(doubt they exist). Author also mentioned how Wade gets more respect with lebron gone so ofc there's context that needs to be taken into account.
That list is from '14. Wade was past him prime as well and was limited. Dude also made 9 3's the entire season. Dirk topped that within the first 5 games of the season and went on to average 22 on 60% TS. Even then, Wade was garnering more defensive attention than Dirk.

Yeah, I do agree with you though. I wish there was this for all seasons, dating back to '00.


Can't really argue with your logic for Malone but I was asking more, who would you take as just an offensive player.
Over Dirk and in today's game? It's really close but probably not. Dirk would be more valuable with his 3pt shot, IMO. In the '90's? Malone in a heartbeat. Of course, this is ignoring their defense, rebounding, and passing.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Maybe he is.....

I'll just leave this here.... a 38 year old Dirk getting ready for the season.

https://twitter.com/tim_cato/status/790966235991113728

[aj1987]

Maybe he is.....

I'll just leave this here.... a 38 year old Dirk getting ready for the season.

https://twitter.com/tim_cato/status/790966235991113728
Well, he is arguably the GOAT midrange shooter. Dude has something like a 47% career average from midrange, peaking at 53%. :eek: :eek: