Kawhi Leonard or Scottie Pippen

[Ron Jeremy]

:bowdown:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Leonard better offensively.
Pippen better defensively.

Wash.

[riseagainst]

Ron Jeremy or Lexington Steele

[SamuraiSWISH]

Ron Jeremy or Lexington Steele
Wesley Pipes and his annoying self color commentary

[Nick Young]

Leonard is essentially a clutch version of Scottie Pippen with an elite jumpshot all the way out to three point range.

He already has a ring and Finals MVP.

He is better than Pippen.

[kamil]

Leonard is essentially a clutch version of Scottie Pippen with an elite jumpshot all the way out to three point range.

He already has a ring and Finals MVP.

He is better than Pippen.

To be fair, Leonard got his ring and FMVP at the expense of LeBron*, so...

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Ron Jeremy or Lexington Steele

You must be white. Ron Jeremy couldn't hold Lex's jock strap. Lex is 3x POY and is one the GOAT's of his sport.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Leonard is essentially a clutch version of Scottie Pippen with an elite jumpshot all the way out to three point range.

He already has a ring and Finals MVP.

He is better than Pippen.

Don't forget the 2 DPOY, something Pippen never could earn.

:confusedshrug:

[Asukal]

This is unfair to Pip as he played second fiddle for most of his career but I think Kawhi is slightly better. :cheers:

[Smoke117]

Leonard better offensively.
Pippen better defensively.

Wash.

lol...Pippen has PG playmaking skills...Leonard has mediocre playmaking skills, but Leonards better offensively. That's without bringing up the fact that Pippen is a much better ball handler and has a much better post game. Leonard also plays in a much weaker defensive era...you could add 2-3ppg onto Pippens numbers in this era.

[Nick Young]

lol...Pippen has PG playmaking skills...Leonard has mediocre playmaking skills, but Leonards better offensively. That's without bringing up the fact that Pippen is a much better ball handler and has a much better post game. Leonard also plays in a much weaker defensive era...you could add 2-3ppg onto Pippens numbers in this era.
Teams are more athletic now and play more sophisticated D than they did in the 90s.
Pippen also would consistently meltdown in the playoffs. So far, Kawhi "Finals MVP" Leonard hasn't shown this quality to his game.

[tpols]

lol...Pippen has PG playmaking skills...Leonard has mediocre playmaking skills, but Leonards better offensively. That's without bringing up the fact that Pippen is a much better ball handler and has a much better post game. Leonard also plays in a much weaker defensive era...you could add 2-3ppg onto Pippens numbers in this era.

Kawhi smokes Pippen in shooting though. And tbh, his scoring role looks like it will increase this year.. his midrange pull up game is money and he's going like harden at the rim (w/o the over the top flopping).

[Smoke117]

Teams are more athletic now and play more sophisticated D than they did in the 90s.
Pippen also would consistently meltdown in the playoffs. So far, Kawhi "Finals MVP" Leonard hasn't shown this quality to his game.

lol..."Finals MVP" Leonard completely disappeared vs the Clippers in the 2nd half of their playoff series in 2015. Maybe know about the players you are talking about before opening your mouth.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Kawhi smokes Pippen in shooting though. And tbh, his scoring role looks like it will increase this year.. his midrange pull up game is money and he's going like harden at the rim (w/o the over the top flopping).

Exactly. The alcoholic is looking at it like Leonard has already reached his peak and shown all that he can show/will no longer improve, but here in reality, he's just recently turned 25 years old and is JUST now going to be entering his prime/peak years as well as get more of a scoring/play-making load moving forward.

[Nick Young]

lol..."Finals MVP" Leonard completely disappeared vs the Clippers in the 2nd half of their playoff series in 2015. Maybe know about the players you are talking about before opening your mouth.
You're wearing nostalgia glasses breh. I watched prime pippen, albeit I was a little kid.

Kawhi is better than Pippen ever was. The only people who think Pippen was better are butthurt 90s Jordan stans who never moved on. Pippen was one of the most consistent big game chokers of all time.

Captain Clutch Kawhi has a Finals MVP already.

[juju151111]

Leonard better offensively.
Pippen better defensively.

Wash.
Why is Pippen better defensively

[Nick Young]

Why is Pippen better defensively
(he isn't)

Pippen never had to guard players like Lebron James. He got to matchup with guys like Jeff Hornacek instead.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3lJe0WnEl0k/S79TZHkWwFI/AAAAAAAAAEU/YYTapoqMTTw/s400/81394317.jpg

[KungFuJoe]

Kawhi is better. This guy is unbelievably good. Has no weaknesses.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

lol..."Finals MVP" Leonard completely disappeared vs the Clippers in the 2nd half of their playoff series in 2015. Maybe know about the players you are talking about before opening your mouth.

So he disappeared one series when he was 23-24 and he's all of sudden this big time career choker now?

:oldlol:

[Smoke117]

So he disappeared one series when he was 23-24 and he's all of sudden this big time career choker now?

:oldlol:

Did I say that, moron? You make the other more intelligent Spurs fans look bad with your stupidity.

[Smoke117]

You're wearing nostalgia glasses breh. I watched prime pippen, albeit I was a little kid.

Kawhi is better than Pippen ever was. The only people who think Pippen was better are butthurt 90s Jordan stans who never moved on. Pippen was one of the most consistent big game chokers of all time.

Captain Clutch Kawhi has a Finals MVP already.

You know nothing about basketball now as an adult...so what you saw as a child means absolutely nothing.

[Fire Colangelo]

lol..."Finals MVP" Leonard completely disappeared vs the Clippers in the 2nd half of their playoff series in 2015. Maybe know about the players you are talking about before opening your mouth.

I wonder where Scottie Pippen was doing as a 23 year old....

Averaging 7 ppg against the Pistons, thats what. Kawhi is a better player than Pippen as a 23 year old, and is looking to be the better player as a 24 year old based on the game he just had against GSW.

[Cozz]

I wonder where Scottie Pippen was doing as a 23 year old....

Averaging 7 ppg against the Pistons, thats what. Kawhi is a better player than Pippen as a 23 year old, and is looking to be the better player as a 24 year old based on the game he just had against GSW.

Kawhi turned 25 this year already.

[Fire Colangelo]

Kawhi turned 25 this year already.

My mistake, scratch that and change it to 25.

I think he'll have the better year as a 25 year old.

[Nick Young]

I wonder where Scottie Pippen was doing as a 23 year old....

Averaging 7 ppg against the Pistons, thats what. Kawhi is a better player than Pippen as a 23 year old, and is looking to be the better player as a 24 year old based on the game he just had against GSW.
At the same age Pippen was averaging 7 points a game, Kawhi Leonard was winning a ring, Finals MVP and Defensive Player of the Year.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

At the same age Pippen was averaging 7 points a game, Kawhi Leonard was winning a ring, Finals MVP and Defensive Player of the Year.

:bowdown:

[NZStreetBaller]

How the heck does anybody think pippen is better defensively? He has no DPOY none, zero. The sf position is prolli the most stacked its ever been.

Pippen had massive open offensive opportunity playing next to the goat.

[Paul George 24]

lol..."Finals MVP" Leonard completely disappeared vs the Clippers in the 2nd half of their playoff series in 2015. Maybe know about the players you are talking about before opening your mouth.
BETTER PIPPEHN NEVER STEP UP IN PLAYOFFS...........:lol

[diamenz]

veteran pipp > current leonard, but it's close.

pippen's physical defense was insane at times.

[AussieSteve]

Leonard better offensively.
Pippen better defensively.

Wash.

Hmmm... Pippen would certainly have been a mid 20's scorer for all of his prime in a team that didn't include MJ. And he was a great playmaker. Kawhi has the better outside shot, but I'd take Pippen at most other aspects on offense.

And while Pippen is certainly an all-time defender, Kawhi has 2 DPOYs!

I think you could argue that Pippen > Kawhi on offense and Kawhi > Pippen on defense.

In any event, if we have this thread again in 3 years, there will be no debate that Kawhi > Pippen on both ends of the floor IMO.

[Bigsmoke]

Kawhi.

He both a better Defender and scorer. Pippen was a better passer.

[Dragonyeuw]

And while Pippen is certainly an all-time defender, Kawhi has 2 DPOYs!



You have to consider that Pip played in an era of dominant defensive bigs like Mutumbo, Admiral, Hakeem, Mourning who dominated that category apart from Rodman and Payton slipping through( and MJ back in 88). Typically it was an award heavily skewed to shotblocking centers back then. I wouldn't necessarily use DPOY awards as a barometer, just as no-one would call Steve Nash better than Shaq on account of MVPs.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

In any event, if we have this thread again in 3 years, there will be no debate that Kawhi > Pippen on both ends of the floor IMO.

In 3 years, Kawhi will be 28 and in his absolute prime.

:eek:

[jlip]

You have to consider that Pip played in an era of dominant defensive bigs like Mutumbo, Admiral, Hakeem, Mourning who dominated that category apart from Rodman and Payton slipping through( and MJ back in 88). Typically it was an award heavily skewed to shotblocking centers back then. I wouldn't necessarily use DPOY awards as a barometer, just as no-one would call Steve Nash better than Shaq on account of MVPs.


This

[Jasper]

pippen all day.

[Showtime80']

LOL, the things kids say these days!

The league got more athletic in the late 90's when compared to the late 80's early 90's and the Bulls posted RECORD numbers and 3-peated for the second time!

The most consistent dominant player of the last 15/16 years has been Tim Duncan, an AVERAGE ATHLETE even in his prime and he still won 5 titles.

The Lakers with the "primitive Triangle" same offense the Bulls ran, still won 5 titles in the "modern

[Indian guy]

Hmmm... Pippen would certainly have been a mid 20's scorer for all of his prime in a team that didn't include MJ.

You'd think so, but he only averaged in the low 20's without MJ in '94 and '95. And those were his peak seasons. Although I could see him being around 24 ppg in this current era, which is more catered towards athletic slashers. But that's a best case scenario. Pippen, aside from having limitations(first step, inconsistent jumper), just didn't have a scorer's mindset.

As far as Pippen vs. Kawhi is concerned, it's pretty close to being a toss up. Kawhi is clearly the better scorer while Pippen's the far superior passer/playmaker for others, although I can see Kawhi making a big leap in that area this season. Defense is a toss up.

[jlip]

Can we pump the brakes on the praise for Kawhi's scoring for the time being? He's now played five full seasons in the league and topped 20ppg once. His career high is a mere 35 points, and he just had that last night against a high tempo, fast paced team. Could he end up demonstrating that he's a better scorer than Pippen? Yes. But he simply has not yet.

[Smoke117]

You have to consider that Pip played in an era of dominant defensive bigs like Mutumbo, Admiral, Hakeem, Mourning who dominated that category apart from Rodman and Payton slipping through( and MJ back in 88). Typically it was an award heavily skewed to shotblocking centers back then. I wouldn't necessarily use DPOY awards as a barometer, just as no-one would call Steve Nash better than Shaq on account of MVPs.

THe DPOY award just like any media accolade is always skewed towards popularity and bias. In 1995 Pippen was one of the FEW perimeter players who actually deserved the DPOY award...and what do they do? They give it to Mutombo because he averaged 4bpg. Next year in 96 they give it to Payton who was a far inferior defensive player compared to Pippen and was a season where David Robinson was an absolute beast and was EASILY the most dominant defensive player in the league...he wasn't even top 2 in DPOY voting though...Payton was 1 and Pippen was 2. Neither guy came close to impacting or carrying a defense like he did, though. In fact, you could say Kemp had the most impact on the Sonics defense and not be wrong.

Another example: Ron artest. Jermaine O'neal was the best defender on the team and the guy who had the most impact on the Pacers defense...but they give it to Ron Artest? It's also funny because this is when Ben Wallace was is in his absolute prime... so Ron Artest is better than Ben Wallace in his absolute prime? LOL Exactly. Mutombo has four DPOY to Hakeem's 2 and Robinson's 1 and he's not even the same tier as them as defensive players...that's how much a DPOY award means. Hakeem should have about 5...the one they gave to Jordan and the two they gave to Rodman.

[Fire Colangelo]

You have to consider that Pip played in an era of dominant defensive bigs like Mutumbo, Admiral, Hakeem, Mourning who dominated that category apart from Rodman and Payton slipping through( and MJ back in 88). Typically it was an award heavily skewed to shotblocking centers back then. I wouldn't necessarily use DPOY awards as a barometer, just as no-one would call Steve Nash better than Shaq on account of MVPs.

Also have to consider that today's NBA is much more perimeter oriented compared to the 90s. A lot of teams ran their offense through their big men back then, so big men defenders were naturally more valuable on the defensive side of the ball.

Nowadays no teams run their offense on their big men, so naturally perimeter defense is much more valuable. Throw someone like Hakeem in this era, and he's going to be less effective (still ATG obviously) compared to his 90s days.

[Smoke117]

Also have to consider that today's NBA is much more perimeter oriented compared to the 90s. A lot of teams ran their offense through their big men back then, so big men defenders were naturally more valuable on the defensive side of the ball.

Nowadays no teams run their offense on their big men, so naturally perimeter defense is much more valuable. Throw someone like Hakeem in this era, and he's going to be less effective (still ATG obviously) compared to his 90s days.

Perimeter defense will never be more valuable...that's ridiculous. The Heat were 9th in defense this past season almost solely because of Whiteside...not because of any perimeter defensive players. Whether players are shooting more 3pters or not...they are always going to be trying to get to the rim too. You are going on about how teams don't run their offense through post players anymore, but that doesn't matter...it's the overall job an anchor does protecting THE PAINT, in general, that matters.

The main difference is that we just don't have a plethora of very good - great big men defensive players like we did in the 90s and 2000s. In the 90s it was the traditional centers and in the 2000s we had the more mobile PF/C's like Ben Wallace, Garnett, Duncan, Sheed, and Howard later in the decade. The league hasn't seen much as far as great defensive big men come into the league at PF or C since Dwight.

[Fire Colangelo]

Perimeter defense will never be more valuable...that's ridiculous. The Heat were 9th in defense this past season almost solely because of Whiteside...not because of any perimeter defensive players. Whether players are shooting more 3pters or not...they are always going to be trying to get to the rim too. You are going on about jpw teams don't run their offense through post players anymore, but that doesn't matter...it's the overall job an anchor does protecting THE PAINT, in general, that matters.

Similarly, the Cavs were a top defensive team despite having no rim protectors. The Spurs shut down the Warriors with LMA, and Gasol.

My point is that teams are more perimeter oriented in today's NBA, which means perimeter defenders are far more valuable than before. I should have worded my previous post better, I didn't mean perimeter defense is more valuable than big men defense, just that it's more valuable than before.

[Rocketswin2013]

Leonard better offensively.
Pippen better defensively.

Wash.
you think so? i dont think pippen was that close to this version of leonard. Leonard is an absolute monster now. MVP-caliber without question. Could be a top 2 player.


Can we pump the brakes on the praise for Kawhi's scoring for the time being? He's now played five full seasons in the league and topped 20ppg once. His career high is a mere 35 points, and he just had that last night against a high tempo, fast paced team. Could he end up demonstrating that he's a better scorer than Pippen? Yes. But he simply has not yet.


but consider the efficiency difference. and last year SA was a pretty slow paced team.

[Smoke117]

He didn't in his peak season on the 1994 Bulls.

He wasn't that level of a volume scorer. Didn't have the handle, creativity, shot, or ability to create in the half court like a truly great scorer. A 24+ ppg caliber player.

Scottie was a low 20 ppg guy even at his peak.

For his career, a better barometer of quality as a scorer, his PPG slightly less even.


Scottie a better passer, Leonard the better creator with his handle off the dribble. Though neither are fantastic in this regard.


I understand. But use your brain and context. Scottie was DPOY capable from '94 - '96. In this time frame he had WAY more difficult competition for the award than Leonard has had in recent history.

We're talking prime / peaks of defenders such as: Hakeem, D-Rob, Mutombo, Rodman, and Gary Payton.

Who is K. Leonard competing against? Draymond Green? Lol

There are barely any quality defenders in the league now, let alone compared to the era where Scottie couldn't steal the award from multiple all time greats.

Don't be stupid.

As I see it, Leonard is still improving. He's a slightly better offensive player due to superior ball handling, shooting and overall scoring. Slightly inferior passer. And although a very good on ball defender, and very good team defender. Scottie was superior in both defensive categories.

What? How is Leonard a better ball handler? He's a poor handler for his position...most of the moves he makes are quick moves so he doesn't have to handle the ball much. Pippen was a much better ball handler. And a slightly inferior passer? Really? Scottie was basically a 6-7 pg and Leonard is a mediocre passer, but that is slightly inferior? Right.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Hmmm... Pippen would certainly have been a mid 20's scorer for all of his prime in a team that didn't include MJ.
He didn't in his peak season on the 1994 Bulls.

He wasn't that level of a volume scorer. Didn't have the handle, creativity, shot, or ability to create in the half court like a truly great scorer. A 24+ ppg caliber player.

Scottie was a low 20 ppg guy even at his peak.

For his career, a better barometer of quality as a scorer, his PPG slightly less even.



And he was a great playmaker.
Scottie a better passer, Leonard the better creator with his handle off the dribble. Though neither are fantastic in this regard.



And while Pippen is certainly an all-time defender, Kawhi has 2 DPOYs!
I understand. But use your brain and context. Scottie was DPOY capable from '94 - '96. In this time frame he had WAY more difficult competition for the award than Leonard has had in recent history.

We're talking prime / peaks of defenders such as: Hakeem, D-Rob, Mutombo, Rodman, and Gary Payton.

Who is K. Leonard competing against? Draymond Green? Lol

There are barely any quality defenders in the league now, let alone compared to the era where Scottie couldn't steal the award from multiple all time greats.

Don't be stupid.

As I see it, Leonard is still improving. He's a slightly better offensive player due to superior ball handling, shooting and overall scoring. Slightly inferior passer. And although a very good on ball defender, and very good team defender. Scottie was superior in both defensive categories.