View Full Version : Where will Russell Westbrook rank all time (both amongst PGs and overall)?
When his career is over, that is.
He's already got to be top 100 all time for sure.
I think he can finish top 30-45 on the GOAT list and top 5 amongst PGs.
Too high or too low?
CTbasketball92
10-27-2016, 10:51 AM
Top 5 PG.
Top 30 player. I don't think more than 20 players have ever actually been better than westbrook over the last 3 years. He's amazing.
Top 5 PG.
Top 30 player. I don't think more than 20 players have ever actually been better than westbrook over the last 3 years. He's amazing.
He's ridiculous. I can honestly see him averaging something like 30 PPG 8 RPG and 10-11 APG this year. If he could only shoot 3s...
The absolute best case scenario I think for him would be top 15 all time but that's extremely unlikely. He does have a shot at top 25 but I think anywhere from 30-45 is most likely.
CTbasketball92
10-27-2016, 11:04 AM
He's ridiculous. I can honestly see him averaging something like 30 PPG 8 RPG and 10-11 APG this year. If he could only shoot 3s...
The absolute best case scenario I think for him would be top 15 all time but that's extremely unlikely. He does have a shot at top 25 but I think anywhere from 30-45 is most likely.
Yeah, I read an ESPN journalist's comments and it said "Westbrook reminds me of charles barkley in that he'll have more indelible moments than actual accomplishments" and I'm like "Look at his stats." There's no way a 6'3" guard should be capable of what he is. Westbrook, for my money, is about as good as 06 Kobe I'd estimate.
Dragonyeuw
10-27-2016, 11:05 AM
I wish OKC would have brought in a steady PG( a Mike Conley type) and just move him to the SG spot. That would be epic as ****.
I wish OKC would have brought in a steady PG( a Mike Conley type) and just move him to the SG spot. That would be epic as ****.
No, WB needs to be the main ballhandler. He would not be as effective otherwise.
andgar923
10-27-2016, 11:09 AM
Well he's not a PG so there goes that.
Well he's not a PG so there goes that.
He averaged double digit assists last year. He's a PG whether or not he fits your definition of one.
Dragonyeuw
10-27-2016, 11:28 AM
No, WB needs to be the main ballhandler. He would not be as effective otherwise.
I'd like to him in that situation over a season before agreeing with that conclusion.
ClipperRevival
10-27-2016, 11:39 AM
No, WB needs to be the main ballhandler. He would not be as effective otherwise.
True. A big part of WB's arsenal is his ability to exploit defenses in semi-trans when it's not quite set to get off shots. Like his pull up jumpers or just attacking the basket. You take the ball out of his hands and he isn't nearly as dangerous. He NEEDS to be ball dominant to be at his best.
Dragonyeuw
10-27-2016, 11:46 AM
True. A big part of WB's arsenal is his ability to exploit defenses in semi-trans when it's not quite set to get off shots. Like his pull up jumpers or just attacking the basket. You take the ball out of his hands and he isn't nearly as dangerous. He NEEDS to be ball dominant to be at his best.
That part of his game isn't going to be impacted moving to the SG spot, if he's getting the ball off his own rebounds or outlets and going full-steam ahead in transition. He rebounds at such a clip that he can generate plenty of his own offense on the break, we're talking a 6'3 guard with that explosiveness that grabs 8 rebounds a game.
i think he'll end up being ranked where t-mac is.
for those who forgot, t-mac was an explosive scoring machine (2-time scoring champ) and all-around player, a highlight reel almost every night. statistically, he had mvp-production type numbers for a while. and for a time, he was pretty much *automatic* selection for all-nba first or second team every year.
but he was never a serious mvp candidate though because his teams never dominated the W/L column, and he never achieved much in the playoffs. actually, his playoff record was terrible.
but for an individual player who could not win, t-mac was as elite as it gets.
westbrook might be in similar situation. he'll be a highlight reel this season and deliver mindblowing numbers... that's a no brainer, but what can he do in the playoffs? will he ever smell the conference finals again or is he gonna be a perennial first-round exit in his prime? we don't know what additions will be made on the oklahoma team. but if he has to do it alone, he'll probably taste what t-mac had to taste every year in his prime.
ClipperRevival
10-27-2016, 11:55 AM
That part of his game isn't going to be impacted moving to the SG spot, if he's getting the ball off his own rebounds or outlets and going full-steam ahead in transition. He rebounds at such a clip that he can generate plenty of his own offense on the break, we're talking a 6'3 guard with that explosiveness that grabs 8 rebounds a game.
Also true, but think of the number of possessions he won't be able to exploit the D when the rebound is passed off to the PG instead of him. That adds up over the course of a season.
L.Kizzle
10-27-2016, 12:23 PM
ESPN has him ranked I believe 49th all time. Sounds about right.
He has a lot more career left. Just think how high Steve Nash was ranked after he left Dallas. No where near Russell level and he was still an All-Star/All NBA talent.
ESPN has him ranked I believe 49th all time. Sounds about right.
He has a lot more career left. Just think how high Steve Nash was ranked after he left Dallas. No where near Russell level and he was still an All-Star/All NBA talent.
nash was an anomaly. late 1-st round pick, sooooo unathletic by nba standards, but he could shoot like a mofo, and he had vision for the game. and nash always gladly deferred to lesser players if that was the better option. nash played how a traditional point guard was supposed to play, and he had the ball-sharing mentality.
but westbrook is a different animal -- he had a bit of mental trouble of even deferring to a wide-open kevin durant!?! :oldlol:
totally different mindsets.
L.Kizzle
10-27-2016, 12:41 PM
nash was an anomaly. late 1-st round pick, sooooo unathletic by nba standards, but he could shoot like a mofo, and he had vision for the game. and nash always gladly deferred to lesser players if that was the better option. nash played how a traditional point guard was supposed to play, and he had the ball-sharing mentality.
but westbrook is a different animal -- he had a bit of mental trouble of even deferring to a wide-open kevin durant!?! :oldlol:
totally different mindsets.
I was comparing their situation not their games. Think of Nash moving from Dallas to Suns. Now double or triple the expectations.
FKAri
10-27-2016, 01:01 PM
ESPN has him ranked I believe 49th all time. Sounds about right.
He has a lot more career left. Just think how high Steve Nash was ranked after he left Dallas. No where near Russell level and he was still an All-Star/All NBA talent.
Westbrook < Nash tho. Unless Westbrook can actually lead a team as a floor general and game manager to some playoff wins instead of making some boneheaded plays to lose games, he's not upping his stock at this point.
Westbrook's another guy who needs to do prove it in the playoffs and not the regular season to raise his stock unless he puts up some Oscar Robertson like numbers in the regular season.
I was comparing their situation not their games. Think of Nash moving from Dallas to Suns. Now double or triple the expectations.
well, steve nash was 30 when he went to the suns. that's why he's such an anomaly because NOBODY was expecting anything to explode out of him anymore. normally, players peak at 27 and kinda even go down shortly after 30. nash obliterated that stereotype and took it to another level in his 30s.
russell westbrook is 27 now, so expectations are already pretty much set for him because he's already in his prime, and his game depends on explosion. i think this year and next year will be his best seasons, and then he's going to drop a little bit. highly doubtful he could expand his game like how nash did in his 30s because nash's game had tools that didn't depend on explosion.
will westbrook get any more explosive than right now??? no, this is it, man. enjoy it. but will westbrook suddenly transform into a mindful playmaker like nash was? no, because it's just not in his blood. westbrook is the product right now.
nash's development was a totally rare. it just wasn't normal. so we shouldn't expect other players to continue to develop into their 30s. nash was a better player at 35 than when he was 25. that just makes no friggin sense in basketball, but that's what nash did. no one is expecting the same type of transformation from westbrook or just about ANYBODY.
JohnMax
10-27-2016, 01:24 PM
He's not a top 50 player.
Dragonyeuw
10-27-2016, 02:03 PM
well, steve nash was 30 when he went to the suns. that's why he's such an anomaly because NOBODY was expecting anything to explode out of him anymore. normally, players peak at 27 and kinda even go down shortly after 30. nash obliterated that stereotype and took it to another level in his 30s.
russell westbrook is 27 now, so expectations are already pretty much set for him because he's already in his prime, and his game depends on explosion. i think this year and next year will be his best seasons, and then he's going to drop a little bit. highly doubtful he could expand his game like how nash did in his 30s because nash's game had tools that didn't depend on explosion.
will westbrook get any more explosive than right now??? no, this is it, man. enjoy it. but will westbrook suddenly transform into a mindful playmaker like nash was? no, because it's just not in his blood. westbrook is the product right now.
nash's development was a totally rare. it just wasn't normal. so we shouldn't expect other players to continue to develop into their 30s. nash was a better player at 35 than when he was 25. that just makes no friggin sense in basketball, but that's what nash did. no one is expecting the same type of transformation from westbrook or just about ANYBODY.
Rule changes post 2004 and the right offensive system catapulted Nash to that stature at 31. I doubt that skill/talent-wise, he was better at 31 than he was as a 28 year old running Dallas' offense, beyond maturity/experience.
Rule changes post 2004 and the right offensive system catapulted Nash to that stature at 31. I doubt that skill/talent-wise, he was better at 31 than he was as a 28 year old running Dallas' offense, beyond maturity/experience.
he was a better, wiser, and more productive player at 35 than at 25. that cannot be denied.
antonAC
10-27-2016, 04:30 PM
the westbrook love in is becoming so tiresome, he's a top player of his era, but not among the very best,
he is not the best PG of his era and his no way in hell among the best PGs of all time.
AussieSteve
10-27-2016, 07:31 PM
People like to rag on WB as an empty stat accumulator rather than a genuinely elite player, but I think this is unfair on him. Don't forget how epically he carried okc without Durant in 2015. He is elite.
But you'd still take CP3 or steph over him. So if he's only the #3 PG right now, he's probably not finishing his career as a top 5 PG all time.
CTbasketball92
10-27-2016, 08:13 PM
People like to rag on WB as an empty stat accumulator rather than a genuinely elite player, but I think this is unfair on him. Don't forget how epically he carried okc without Durant in 2015. He is elite.
But you'd still take CP3 or steph over him. So if he's only the #3 PG right now, he's probably not finishing his career as a top 5 PG all time.
I wouldn't take CP3 or Curry over Westbrook necessarily. I haven't seen that Curry has the overwhelming physicality and court sense to drag awful teams to great records. I have seen CP3 do something similar, but I don't think he has the physical attributes or truly elite shooting attributes to simply take over, and that's a part of the reason why I think the Clips lost in 2015 against the Rockets when they were up 3-1, and against OKC in 2014. Westbrook has the LeBron factor in that he can do literally anything on any given night. Game saving block? Sure, why not. 40 point triple double? I mean, he's done it. Westbrook's holistic dominance and almost intangible way to influence games is also somewhat like LeBron's, though he's less cerebral. Westbrook literally won OKC game 1 against GSW with an amazing third quarter, with unbelieveable drives and passes. He just willed them to victory even though the thunder had zero spacing and KD was playing like Trash. Just not sure I could see Curry doing something like that. He's a really good passer, GOAT shooter and a few other things, but I've never seen him succeed in less-than-ideal circumstances. His record before the current Warriors team was gradually assembled wasn't too impressive, and that wasn't his fault necessarily, he's just not a LeBron or MJ level talent, to be honest. Not that anyone was necessarily saying this, but a team with Westbrook and Stoudemire >>> Stoudemire and Nash. Westbrook is simply better in a vaccuum, and I haven't seen evidence that Westbrook can't help maximize a well-rounded team. Him and KD would've won a chip if theyd come of age in 2010 instead of 2012, around the advent of true super teams, and we'd look at westbrook way differently. I feel like the westbrook critiquing is more a thing to do with ppl being stuck on outdated bball positional stereotypes than actual production.
Prometheus
10-27-2016, 08:29 PM
unranked
bizil
10-27-2016, 09:02 PM
Peak-best player wise, I think Westbrook is a top 5 PG of all time:
Magic
Big O
Steph
Westbrook
Zeke
But when it comes to GOAT standings, he needs to build his resume up more to rank that high. But in terms of peak-best player status, I think he's a top 5 PG, top 10 guard, and top 50 caliber player. Whenever you redefine his position the way he has, he deserves huge props!
When it comes to Russ playing the SG, OF COURSE HE WOULD THRIVE! AI thrived as a small SG and was 3-4 inches shorter! For me, the main thing would be the defensive side of the rock. If u pair Russ with a small PG, he would have to check the bigger SG's. But other than that, Russ is one of those guards that would thrive at PG or SG. And he plays MUCH BIGGER than his size too. He thinks like a score first guard who is ALSO a GREAT ALL AROUND PLAYER! So in that sense, he's more along the lines of MJ, Kobe, West, and Wade.
antonAC
10-27-2016, 09:38 PM
People like to rag on WB as an empty stat accumulator rather than a genuinely elite player, but I think this is unfair on him. Don't forget how epically he carried okc without Durant in 2015. He is elite.
yes, he "carried" them all the way to 9th in the western conference.
when westbrook missed half the season they finished 2nd on the back of Durant being the MVP, that's carrying a team.
AussieSteve
10-27-2016, 10:04 PM
yes, he "carried" them all the way to 9th in the western conference.
when westbrook missed half the season they finished 2nd on the back of Durant being the MVP, that's carrying a team.
Come on.. firstly, 45-37 makes the playoffs 9 times out of 10, so 9th was unlucky, and secondly OKC were 40-27 in games he played... 22-18 without Durant. When the west was about as stacked as its ever been and with no help, thats damn good.
And I'm not saying that he's anywhere near as good as Durant, just that he single handedly gave OKC a chance that season and wasn't just filling the stat sheet.
FKAri
10-27-2016, 10:11 PM
Peak-best player wise, I think Westbrook is a top 5 PG of all time:
Magic
Big O
Steph
Westbrook
Zeke
But when it comes to GOAT standings, he needs to build his resume up more to rank that high. But in terms of peak-best player status, I think he's a top 5 PG, top 10 guard, and top 50 caliber player. Whenever you redefine his position the way he has, he deserves huge props!
When it comes to Russ playing the SG, OF COURSE HE WOULD THRIVE! AI thrived as a small SG and was 3-4 inches shorter! For me, the main thing would be the defensive side of the rock. If u pair Russ with a small PG, he would have to check the bigger SG's. But other than that, Russ is one of those guards that would thrive at PG or SG. And he plays MUCH BIGGER than his size too. He thinks like a score first guard who is ALSO a GREAT ALL AROUND PLAYER! So in that sense, he's more along the lines of MJ, Kobe, West, and Wade.
Whoa
CTbasketball92
10-27-2016, 10:15 PM
yes, he "carried" them all the way to 9th in the western conference.
when westbrook missed half the season they finished 2nd on the back of Durant being the MVP, that's carrying a team.
Not the whole story though. Didn't Ibakamiss like the last month of the season during 2014-2015,? Didn't KD only play 27 games that year, while Westbrook played in 46 games in 2013-2014? That's 19 more games of playing next to a top 5-7 player (that year). That's a huge difference, making this comparison ... not a good comparison. Who knows how KD would've done without Westbrook for 19 less games.
AussieSteve
10-27-2016, 11:00 PM
I wouldn't take CP3 or Curry over Westbrook necessarily. I haven't seen that Curry has the overwhelming physicality and court sense to drag awful teams to great records. I have seen CP3 do something similar, but I don't think he has the physical attributes or truly elite shooting attributes to simply take over, and that's a part of the reason why I think the Clips lost in 2015 against the Rockets when they were up 3-1, and against OKC in 2014. Westbrook has the LeBron factor in that he can do literally anything on any given night. Game saving block? Sure, why not. 40 point triple double? I mean, he's done it. Westbrook's holistic dominance and almost intangible way to influence games is also somewhat like LeBron's, though he's less cerebral. Westbrook literally won OKC game 1 against GSW with an amazing third quarter, with unbelieveable drives and passes. He just willed them to victory even though the thunder had zero spacing and KD was playing like Trash. Just not sure I could see Curry doing something like that. He's a really good passer, GOAT shooter and a few other things, but I've never seen him succeed in less-than-ideal circumstances. His record before the current Warriors team was gradually assembled wasn't too impressive, and that wasn't his fault necessarily, he's just not a LeBron or MJ level talent, to be honest. Not that anyone was necessarily saying this, but a team with Westbrook and Stoudemire >>> Stoudemire and Nash. Westbrook is simply better in a vaccuum, and I haven't seen evidence that Westbrook can't help maximize a well-rounded team. Him and KD would've won a chip if theyd come of age in 2010 instead of 2012, around the advent of true super teams, and we'd look at westbrook way differently. I feel like the westbrook critiquing is more a thing to do with ppl being stuck on outdated bball positional stereotypes than actual production.
Can't disagree with any of this.
CP3 can control a game like no one else and Curry can score from anywhere, but Westbrook can do everything better than most players, so he can can literally take over a game if necessary.
When Curry is making shots though, there is really is no defending him. How many close games did GSW win last season simply because Curry drained multiple ridiculous threes in the closing minutes? Against a team with good interior defense I don't know if Westbrook could be as consistently damaging as Curry. As for CP3... well I just don't see a team that includes him winning less than 50 games. I'm not sure if Westbrook is quite at that level.
I agree that you could build a case for Westbrook over Curry or Paul, but my preference would be for the later two.
CTbasketball92
10-28-2016, 12:58 AM
Can't disagree with any of this.
CP3 can control a game like no one else and Curry can score from anywhere, but Westbrook can do everything better than most players, so he can can literally take over a game if necessary.
When Curry is making shots though, there is really is no defending him. How many close games did GSW win last season simply because Curry drained multiple ridiculous threes in the closing minutes? Against a team with good interior defense I don't know if Westbrook could be as consistently damaging as Curry. As for CP3... well I just don't see a team that includes him winning less than 50 games. I'm not sure if Westbrook is quite at that level.
I agree that you could build a case for Westbrook over Curry or Paul, but my preference would be for the later two.
I don't really disagree with the CP3 argument either. I actually understated Cp3's takeover ability too. He's a reliable 3point shooter who's not really too streaky, and he's the league's best midrange shooter. When you combine those attributes with his GOAT level handle, he's lethal in the clutch. He can get whereever he wants on the court and hit shots from everywhere, sort of like Kyrie. He can do that while also having LeBron-level IQ and playing great defense. I'd have loved CP3 on the Spurs. The narrative surrounding him would've changed so much, but oh well.
Curry is actually a great passer, and all things considered, I think his overwhelming shooting ability gives him a transcendant advantage like LeBron's athleticism and versatility. With that said, he's somewhat underperformed in the playoffs, even when he was healthy.
We'll see what Westbrook does this year. He looks like a 6'3" late 80s MJ out there when he's in the post knocking down jumpers and getting out in transition. If he can knock down his midrange jumper at a mid-40s%, watch out. The way he played against the 76ers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRhxhgExCOk) was amazing.
EDIT: Because of CP3's shooting stroke, IQ, low turnover rate and amazing court vision, CP3 would fit in seamlessly with almost in NBA team over the last in the last 30 years or so. Don't know if his peak is the best player out of the three
Cemetery gates by Pantera is a great song
the westbrook love in is becoming so tiresome, he's a top player of his era, but not among the very best,
he is not the best PG of his era and his no way in hell among the best PGs of all time.
Name 10 better point guards ever then.
antonAC
10-28-2016, 05:26 AM
Name 10 better point guards ever then.
"type best point guards ever" into google.
don't worry, westbrook doesn't appear in a single top 10 so you'll find plenty of options.
SecondTake
10-28-2016, 03:31 PM
ALL TIME:
Probably Top 15
Possibly Top 5-10
Top 2 or 3 PG all time though.
"type best point guards ever" into google.
don't worry, westbrook doesn't appear in a single top 10 so you'll find plenty of options.
"I can't name 10 better PGs"
In other words.
feyki
10-28-2016, 06:20 PM
Cemetery gates by Pantera is a great song
Naturally .
Top 30 . Among PG's ;
Magic
Oscar
Curry
CP3
Stockton
Westbrook
..
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