Will this be the first year LeBron doesn't lead his team in scoring?

[Prometheus]

Or is it just a slow start to the season for him offensively? I think he's consciously embracing the playmaker role and will finish his career that way.

[MrFonzworth]

Regular season, yeah.

It starts with him after that though.

[MP.Trey]

I think it will be close. Him and Kyrie will both be hovering around 24-26 ppg imo by the end of the season

[raprap]

Kudos to him for embracing his role. His game has aged well contrary to what we heard early on his career. 22-23 ppg 7-8 rebs 8-9 asts would still be impressive.

[Bankaii]

Probably, even Love is averaging more FGA than him this year.:oldlol:
Come playoff time, around the 2nd round, he'll get serious and lead the team again.

[RedBlackAttack]

Or is it just a slow start to the season for him offensively? I think he's consciously embracing the playmaker role and will finish his career that way.
This is definitely where the rest of his career is headed, whether it is this year or next... especially with arguably the most explosive scorer in the league by his side.

It's working out perfectly for him personnel-wise. He can expend more energy when the time comes, but in the regular season, he is so good at just quarterbacking the team and letting Kyrie and Love carry the scoring load.

That's the way it should be.

[RedBlackAttack]

Probably, even Love is averaging more FGA than him this year.:oldlol:
Come playoff time, around the 2nd round, he'll get serious and lead the team again.
LeBron averaged 26.3 points in the playoffs last year to Kyrie's 25.2.

I see that gap closing as their careers progress. LeBron will likely still be in the 25-point range, but as Kyrie enters his prime, he will be capable of putting up 27-30+ in the playoffs... especially playing off of LeBron excellent QB skills.

It is inevitable.

[Smoke117]

In the regular season? Likely. He doesn't have anything else to prove during the regular season as a scorer at this point in his career. If anything, he should go all out on the defensive end and try for a DPOY award.

[Bankaii]

LeBron averaged 26.3 points in the playoffs last year to Kyrie's 25.2.

I see that gap closing as their careers progress. LeBron will likely still be in the 25-point range, but as Kyrie enters his prime, he will be capable of putting up 27-30+ in the playoffs... especially playing off of LeBron excellent QB skills.

It is inevitable.
Look at the FGA though... Kyrie led Lebron by 0.2.
With the East getting stronger and the Warriors getting better I don't see Lebron being so dependent on others to score, at least not until he's no longer able to take over a game by himself.

And I personally don't see Kyrie ever averaging over 27 ppg over an entire playoff run, at least not on his usual superb efficiency. He can't now unless Lebron goes full passive mode, and when Lebron is older I'm still not 100% sure Kyrie as you main option scoring around 30 will equate to winning basketball.

But he maturing at a fast rate now, maybe it'll change.

[spidey102279]

20.5 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 9.5 apg at 50% shooting in just 14.5 shots per game is still a Beast number though.

I think he will finish the reg season averaging 25 ppg, 9 rpg, 9 apg... He will step up his scoring after the All Star Break..

[Lebron23]

He might lead the Cavs in scoring again vs. Celtics.

[pedromarinho]

Drew is just a better natural scorer.

[GimmeThat]

just playing like you're first, until your teammates fine tune the physical aspect of their game

[Prometheus]

just playing like you're first, until your teammates fine tune the physical aspect of their game

If you think about it, sometimes you have to see your shooter in the corner, know he'll get a good (but not great) look, and show him you trust him. Every play becomes its own mind game.

Of course, the opponent is playing mind games as well. A game within a game if you will.

Then the media plays games based on the games you played within the games, which in turn carry suggestions into the next game... in the back of your mind, whether you accept it or not.

At some point, every star player has to say "ENOUGH!!!" with the games, and get down to business.

[CTbasketball92]

Ty Lue has Kyrie being really aggressive, so he might actually be able to average 25+ after all. I'm a bit skeptical because he doesn't get to the line a lot and his long range shot will come back down to earth, though I'm pretty sure he'll shoot 40>. I think LeBron will pick it up and get at least 23 8 and 8 on a 60 TS%. LeBron and Kyrie and at this point, even Love, are pretty much unbeatable with LeBron playing a super saiyan Draymond Green role. LeBron can keep any game close with his all around play, and Kyrie is pretty much unstoppable as a closer because of his elite all-around offensive game. If Love keeps it up and gets like 19 and 10 on a 57 TS% good luck beating them.

[GimmeThat]

If you think about it, sometimes you have to see your shooter in the corner, know he'll get a good (but not great) look, and show him you trust him. Every play becomes its own mind game.

Of course, the opponent is playing mind games as well. A game within a game if you will.

Then the media plays games based on the games you played within the games, which in turn carry suggestions into the next game... in the back of your mind, whether you accept it or not.

At some point, every star player has to say "ENOUGH!!!" with the games, and get down to business.

I'm pretty sure assists aren't mind games. as for clutch time statistics and how that measures a player's value.

it's not know he'll get a good look, it's knowing he'll make what seems as a good look to others into a great look. trust don't make shots, confidence don't make shots, and opportunities are limited.

I'm sure someone of your wisdom would know that when star has to say "enough" it isn't that I'm gonna start doing the scoring myself, but that some player just gotta go.

[Prometheus]

I'm pretty sure assists aren't mind games. as for clutch time statistics and how that measures a player's value.

it's not know he'll get a good look, it's knowing he'll make what seems as a good look to others into a great look. trust don't make shots, confidence don't make shots, and opportunities are limited.

I'm sure someone of your wisdom would know that when star has to say "enough" it isn't that I'm gonna start doing the scoring myself, but that some player just gotta go.

:biggums:

If my shooter is open and i dont give him the ball, his role is in question. If i dont think hes good, is he actually good? Maybe he wants to prove me wrong. We share a locker room, but not a home. These are still men doing their job.

A broken play... or even a well-executed play against great defense... this is what i want you to imagine. Trust and confidence don't make shots... shooters make shots. But trust/confidence issues can miss shots if it is lacking. The psychological game is ALWAYS at work... the key is to become active with it, not just a pawn.

To say "ENOUGH" is to see your goal as not just the main idea, but the whole idea. Whether it means you have the game of your life, or you simply go after it. You have to believe in your purpose and stop trying to create it, but let it live through you.

[GimmeThat]

:biggums:

If my shooter is open and i dont give him the ball, his role is in question. If i dont think hes good, is he actually good? Maybe he wants to prove me wrong. We share a locker room, but not a home. These are still men doing their job.

A broken play... or even a well-executed play against great defense... this is what i want you to imagine. Trust and confidence don't make shots... shooters make shots. But trust/confidence issues can miss shots if it is lacking. The psychological game is ALWAYS at work... the key is to become active with it, not just a pawn.

To say "ENOUGH" is to see your goal as not just the main idea, but the whole idea. Whether it means you have the game of your life, or you simply go after it. You have to believe in your purpose and stop trying to create it, but let it live through you.

the bolded part just means your role is in question until again, the shooter proves he isn't a shooter. (don't be surprised, not every NBA player who has ever taken the court time are actual shooters)

the italic part, I'm pretty sure fatigue makes a stronger factor than trust/confidence, unless you believe that there are players that can make 100% of the shot they take

the underline part, how do you say enough and let something live through you? that's not even passive aggressive, that's like saying the best (way to express) aggression is passiveness. as to expanding your main idea into whole idea, I'm pretty sure that means more.

[Dragonyeuw]

No need for him to go all out with this team. He can play the role of playmaker and 'fill in the blanks' scoring when needed, and let Kyrie carry the lead PPG role. Playoff time is when you'll see numbers more on par with what you expect in seasons past.

[TiagoSimoes]

20.5 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 9.5 apg at 50% shooting in just 14.5 shots per game is still a Beast number though.

I think he will finish the reg season averaging 25 ppg, 9 rpg, 9 apg... He will step up his scoring after the All Star Break..

Lebron never averaged above 8.0 rebounds or 8.6 assists, he wont end up the year with numbers above that. i do belive in a 24/25 ppg 8 assts 7 rebounds on great efficiency. Its still amazing numbers

[Prometheus]

the bolded part just means your role is in question until again, the shooter proves he isn't a shooter. (don't be surprised, not every NBA player who has ever taken the court time are actual shooters)

In this hypothetical, I'm LeBron James - so my role is never in question. I do as I please.


the italic part, I'm pretty sure fatigue makes a stronger factor than trust/confidence, unless you believe that there are players that can make 100% of the shot they take

Fatigue effects every player though. If your job is to stand in the corner and shoot, and you don't get the chance when you think you have it, your team chemistry is called into question, and you will probably have trouble getting into rhythm.


the underline part, how do you say enough and let something live through you? that's not even passive aggressive, that's like saying the best (way to express) aggression is passiveness. as to expanding your main idea into whole idea, I'm pretty sure that means more.

I'm not talking about passive-aggressiveness... I'm talking about letting the game come to you. If you are still playing "games" you may try to score more because you are concerned with how you are perceived. But if you think you can be more of a winner without as much scoring, and you say "ENOUGH", maybe you can shed your concerns about your "role" and just play. Let your purpose live through you.

[Dragonyeuw]

Lebron never averaged above 8.0 rebounds or 8.6 assists, he wont end up the year with numbers above that. i do belive in a 24/25 ppg 8 assts 7 rebounds on great efficiency. Its still amazing numbers

That doesn't really matter. If he can put up 29 and 8 assists on a team with the 'firepower' of those Cavs, he should be able to get 9 assists a game with a reduced scoring load and more offensive options around him. If he doesn't stay at above 9 rebounds a game, its because he's got guys like Thompson and Love who are very good rebounders themselves, not due to lack of ability to do so. He easily has the size and athleticism and couple that with playing closer to the basket on a more regular basis.

[guy]

I could see him go for the triple double. He's currently at 20/10/10 and if he stays at that, it will probably be a very overrated accomplishment just because of the how it looks visually and it's rarity. It would be one of his least impressive seasons. Impressive regardless, but probably not even in his top 7 or so and it probably wouldn't be in a lot of great players top 5-7. 27/7/7 like Lebron has been doing for most of his career is more impressive to me. I guess you can say 20/10/10 is more suitable for this current team, but that doesn't make it more impressive.

[Prometheus]

I could see him go for the triple double. He's currently at 20/10/10 and if he stays at that, it will probably be a very overrated accomplishment just because of the how it looks visually and it's rarity. It would be one of his least impressive seasons. Impressive regardless, but probably not even in his top 7 or so and it probably wouldn't be in a lot of great players top 5-7. 27/7/7 like Lebron has been doing for most of his career is more impressive to me. I guess you can say 20/10/10 is more suitable for this current team, but that doesn't make it more impressive.

I strongly disagree. 20 points and 10 assists is superior to 27 points and 7 assists in today's 3pt-oriented league. Also, averaging 10 assists from the forward position is remarkable.

[Smoke117]

I could see him go for the triple double. He's currently at 20/10/10 and if he stays at that, it will probably be a very overrated accomplishment just because of the how it looks visually and it's rarity. It would be one of his least impressive seasons. Impressive regardless, but probably not even in his top 7 or so and it probably wouldn't be in a lot of great players top 5-7. 27/7/7 like Lebron has been doing for most of his career is more impressive to me. I guess you can say 20/10/10 is more suitable for this current team, but that doesn't make it more impressive.

Are you seriously trying to throw shade on averaging a triple double? :facepalm

[Prometheus]

Are you seriously trying to throw shade on averaging a triple double? :facepalm

It's unbelievable how much people overvalue scoring when it comes to analyzing individual players. Undervaluing the other major statistics, especially assists, and severely undervaluing things which don't appear on box scores, such as defense, are what lead to such ridiculous notions as we had last year about how Steph Curry was better than LeBron, or was having a GOAT-tier peak. People see scoring with high efficiency, and they are simply blinded by it.

[MP.Trey]

I could see him go for the triple double. He's currently at 20/10/10 and if he stays at that, it will probably be a very overrated accomplishment just because of the how it looks visually and it's rarity. It would be one of his least impressive seasons. Impressive regardless, but probably not even in his top 7 or so and it probably wouldn't be in a lot of great players top 5-7. 27/7/7 like Lebron has been doing for most of his career is more impressive to me. I guess you can say 20/10/10 is more suitable for this current team, but that doesn't make it more impressive.

Yes it does. As the leader of a team, your main goal is to get your team to perform at their peak every night. Doing extra things or even laying back a little to help your team succeed is much more valuable than scoring more just because it looks better to you on a stat sheet.

[guy]

I strongly disagree. 20 points and 10 assists is superior to 27 points and 7 assists in today's 3pt-oriented league. Also, averaging 10 assists from the forward position is remarkable.

Position is irrelevant. Even if you want to go by some "points responsible" type metric the difference is minimal and the flawed logic there is that the guy making the assist would deserve 100% of the credit for each assist, when they shouldn't especially with 3s which is probably the most difficult shot to make that would also achieve an assist.

[Prometheus]

Yes it does. As the leader of a team, your main goal is to get your team to perform at their peak every night. Doing extra things or even laying back a little to help your team succeed is much more valuable than scoring more just because it looks better to you on a stat sheet.

Even from a mathematical standpoint, in today's 3pt-oriented league, 3 assists is more valuable than 7 points. It just is.

[Prometheus]

Position is irrelevant. Even if you want to go by some "points responsible" type metric the difference is minimal and the flawed logic there is that the guy making the assist would deserve 100% of the credit for each assist, when they shouldn't especially with 3s which is probably the most difficult shot to make that would also achieve an assist.

I'm glad that you're having a rational debate with me about this, but honestly, if you really believe 27/7/7 is better than 20/10/10, then you're pretty dull and I'm not really interested in debating it.

[guy]

Are you seriously trying to throw shade on averaging a triple double? :facepalm

No not really, if anything I'm giving credit to how great he's been before this season. I would throw shade if he's specifically holding back his scoring and actively trying to average a TD.

[guy]

I'm glad that you're having a rational debate with me about this, but honestly, if you really believe 27/7/7 is better than 20/10/10, then you're pretty dull and I'm not really interested in debating it.

I'm dull yet you're just enamored by the visual appeal of 20/10/10. Okay.

Is 20/10/10 really that much better then 21/9/7, 20/10/7, 22/9/6, or 19/9.5/9.5? Cause those have happened before and no one really cares and no one would say they are even close to as good as most of Lebron's best seasons.

[guy]

Yes it does. As the leader of a team, your main goal is to get your team to perform at their peak every night. Doing extra things or even laying back a little to help your team succeed is much more valuable than scoring more just because it looks better to you on a stat sheet.

20/10/10 vs 27/7/7 doesn't mean you're doing extra things, it means you're doing less in some categories and more in others and it's the same vice versa.

The leadership standpoint is true. But that doesn't make it statistically more impressive. Jordan held back some aspects of his game for Pippen to flourish, Duncan did the same for Parker/Ginobili, etc. It was good leadership and the right thing to do, but that doesn't mean there production those years were more impressive.

[moongaze]

Kyrie got to the line a lot more than usual against the rockets. 8-8. It resulted in the highest scoring game of the season for him. If he can average between 6-8 free throws a game hell be even more of a nightmare to stop. Going back to the start of the playoffs to the first four games of the season(25 games total) Kyrie is shooting over 45 percent from three. That's a solid percentage for over a quarter of a season worth of games. This season, it looks like he refined his shot even more.

[moongaze]

Position is irrelevant. Even if you want to go by some "points responsible" type metric the difference is minimal and the flawed logic there is that the guy making the assist would deserve 100% of the credit for each assist, when they shouldn't especially with 3s which is probably the most difficult shot to make that would also achieve an assist.

I agree about assists. Points scored is 100 percent the individuals doing. Assists as a stat isn't as significant to me because it's dependant on the person you passed it to making the shot. Some assists are more the passers doing others are the person making a basic pass to a guy that happened to make the shot. I put more significance on rebounding numbers than assists. Averaging 10 a game is impressive. If lbj can keep that up along with a high assist to turnover ratio along with 20 points I'd call it a great season for him.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I think his career trajectory, especially playing along side Kyrie Irving, he'll take a deliberate back seat in that regard but try to provide elsewhere in other departments.

Particularly facilitating as he's more of a point guard than Kyrie himself. A much better facilitator.

I see 24 / 8 / 8 for the season. With a continuing trend going forward of LeBron being a low, less than 25 ppg scorer.

[imdaman99]

Kyrie is the best scorer on the team anyway. He is the craftiest. That doesn't mean he's the best player, far from it. Lebron is still miles ahead in that, because he can pace the team and act as a facilitator, which we haven't really seen from Kyrie. I don't see Lebron dropping to #3 on the team in scoring behind Love though :oldlol:

[Dragonyeuw]

When Bron come into the league, I think more people expected Magic Johnson type numbers( what he was posting in his MVP years, maybe not quite as many assists, but approaching double digits) than being a 27-30ppg scorer in his prime. I think he prefers the facilitator role moreso than having to be dependent upon for high scoring, and asides from Wade in 2011, Kyrie represents the first teammate he's had where he can really pick his scoring spots and the team is all the better for it. After last years finals, I had a strong suspicion that Kyrie would assume a larger scoring role, while Lebron plays the facilitator. It's still early in the year though, so I expect both Lebron and Kyrie will be in 23-25 ppg range.

[Smoke117]

When Bron come into the league, I think more people expected Magic Johnson type numbers( what he was posting in his MVP years, maybe not quite as many assists, but approaching double digits) than being a 27-30ppg scorer in his prime. I think he prefers the facilitator role moreso than having to be dependent upon for high scoring, and asides from Wade in 2011, Kyrie represents the first teammate he's had where he can really pick his scoring spots and the team is all the better for it. After last years finals, I had a strong suspicion that Kyrie would assume a larger scoring role, while Lebron plays the facilitator.

2012 Wade > Kyrie as a scorer. If Wade was playing with this older Lebron who had nothing to prove anymore that would be more readily apparent. He still wanted to be the man and the leading scorer then though so Wade had take a step back...that and his knee was starting to bug him.

[Dragonyeuw]

2012 Wade > Kyrie as a scorer. If Wade was playing with this older Lebron who had nothing to prove anymore that would be more readily apparent. He still wanted to be the man and the leading scorer then though so Wade had take a step back...that and his knee was starting to bug him.

I first had 2011 and 2012 Wade before removing the '2012' from the post. You may be right, but basically otherwise he's never had a player alongside him that gives him the luxury to coast on offense over a season. I still expect his numbers to be 27+ in the playoffs though...

[Father Prime]

Kyrie will average 24ppg+ and Lebron will average below that.

[Prometheus]

I agree about assists. Points scored is 100 percent the individuals doing. Assists as a stat isn't as significant to me because it's dependant on the person you passed it to making the shot. Some assists are more the passers doing others are the person making a basic pass to a guy that happened to make the shot. I put more significance on rebounding numbers than assists. Averaging 10 a game is impressive. If lbj can keep that up along with a high assist to turnover ratio along with 20 points I'd call it a great season for him.

So if i am the roll guy for kyrie, and he gets me the ball on a wide open cut for an easy uncontested dunk, you really mean to tell me that i am more responsible for those two points than he was? If he draws a double team and gets me an easy short jumper, thats 100% me and he isnt kinda responsible too?

[Prometheus]

I'm dull yet you're just enamored by the visual appeal of 20/10/10. Okay.

Is 20/10/10 really that much better then 21/9/7, 20/10/7, 22/9/6, or 19/9.5/9.5? Cause those have happened before and no one really cares and no one would say they are even close to as good as most of Lebron's best seasons.

The visual appeal means nothing. I would just as quickly take 20/10r/9a over 27/7/6. The rebounds is just a bonus for me btw. Like i would take a guy who gets 20 pts and 10 dimes over 27 and 7 even if they were identical rebounders. I think the value of the assists does more for the team than raw numbers convey

[Fire Colangelo]

2012 Wade > Kyrie as a scorer. If Wade was playing with this older Lebron who had nothing to prove anymore that would be more readily apparent. He still wanted to be the man and the leading scorer then though so Wade had take a step back...that and his knee was starting to bug him.

I would say that 2012 Wade was a better better than Kyrie, but I would argue that Kyrie is a better scorer. I'd also argue that Kyrie's skill set makes him a better fit with LeBron.

[Fire Colangelo]

The visual appeal means nothing. I would just as quickly take 20/10r/9a over 27/7/6. The rebounds is just a bonus for me btw. Like i would take a guy who gets 20 pts and 10 dimes over 27 and 7 even if they were identical rebounders. I think the value of the assists does more for the team than raw numbers convey

So 09 Chris Paul > 13' LeBron?

[CTbasketball92]

2012 Wade > Kyrie as a scorer. If Wade was playing with this older Lebron who had nothing to prove anymore that would be more readily apparent. He still wanted to be the man and the leading scorer then though so Wade had take a step back...that and his knee was starting to bug him.

I think we'll see this about that this year. 2012 DWade still made 6 freethrows a game to what I believe will be Kyrie's 4. On the other hand, Kyrie is very capable of shooting 42% from three and hitting about 2.5 a game, so that might balance it out. FWIW, i really, really doubt 2012 DWade torches the Warriors the way Kyrie did, though his defense might've prevented them going down 3-1 in the first place.

[Prometheus]

So 09 Chris Paul > 13' LeBron?

No because lbj was better in literally every other way

[Spurs5Rings2014]

So if i am the roll guy for kyrie, and he gets me the ball on a wide open cut for an easy uncontested dunk, you really mean to tell me that i am more responsible for those two points than he was? If he draws a double team and gets me an easy short jumper, thats 100% me and he isnt kinda responsible too?

I think what they were arguing is that not all assists are created equally. You pretty much went with one extreme while ignoring the other (passing to a guy who just makes a tough, contested shot or a collapse defensively by the other team which leads to an easy pass + lay-up, etc).