Where would 2003-2008 Kobe rank in today's NBA?

[CTbasketball92]

Thoughts

[Dray n Klay]

12th

[Bankaii]

Depends on the type team he's on...
06-07 Lakers level: Best in the RS then Lebron proves he's the best in the playoffs.
08-10 Lakers level: Top 4 definitely. Probably 2nd right after Lebron including the playoffs.

[raprap]

Behind Derozan aka the new MJ

[ScalsFan21]

I mean obviously Kobe's legacy is buoyed big-time by his longevity and how long he was a top 3-5 level guy for. He's probably behind a healthy Curry at #3 overall. I'd say that version of Kobe is in the Durant/Leonard tier between 3-5, and I'd give him the nod at #3. Ahead of Chris Paul, Westbrook, Harden, and those guys by a big margin.

[Smoke117]

Top 10.

[Cold soul]

Kobe would be best player today going by those years.

[Bankaii]

Kobe would be best player today going by those years.
Lol no, not at all.

[AirTupac]

Easily the best player

[feyki]

Top 4 .

[C-Green]

Kobe would be best player today going by those years.
In a world where Lebron James did not exist.

[ArbitraryWater]

I mean obviously Kobe's legacy is buoyed big-time by his longevity and how long he was a top 3-5 level guy for. He's probably behind a healthy Curry at #3 overall. I'd say that version of Kobe is in the Durant/Leonard tier between 3-5, and I'd give him the nod at #3. Ahead of Chris Paul, Westbrook, Harden, and those guys by a big margin.

this pretty much


Kobe would be best player today going by those years.

lol?

[AirTupac]

Behind Curry? Lmfao

Kobe was an actual beast in his prime as a defender meanwhile Curry is average at best. Kobe is much better than Curry :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Behind Curry? Lmfao

Kobe was an actual beast in his prime as a defender meanwhile Curry is average at best. Kobe is much better than Curry :oldlol:

2004-2007 Kobe a beast as a defender? :oldlol:

"I'd like to see him play better defense," Winter said, adding that he had addressed the issue recently with Bryant but didn't come away with the idea that Bryant was intent on changing his approach.

"You know Kobe," Winter said with a chuckle. "He has his game plan. I think he heard me. But he feels there's a certain way he's got to play the game. But it doesn't involve a lot of basically sound defense."

Because the Lakers need so much of his effort at the offensive end, Bryant has adopted a save-energy plan on the defensive end, Winter said. "He's basically playing a lot of one-man zone. He's doing a lot of switching, zoning up, trying to come up with the interception.

"The way Kobe plays defensively affects the team," Winter added.

[Devin Booker]

Anyone who doesn't think he would be at least top 2 in a league with soft ass calls where Derozan and Westbrook feast legit doesn't know basketball.

What Derozan is doing now..... just imagine Kobe in that same situation.

[Jacks3]

2003 Kobe with no hand-checking, a stretch four, shooters, and the clear lanes of today? lol

He would be completely unstoppable.

He'd be the best player in the game not named Curry.

[K Xerxes]

Easily top 2, in the conversation for best of the game with LeBron.

[C-Green]

He'd be the best player in the game not named Curry.
:biggums:

[Cold soul]

In a world where Lebron James did not exist.

Well sorry brake it to you but Lebron not his prime anymore for the record I'll take Lebron years 09,10,12, and 13 over Kobe but not any other years.

[ArbitraryWater]

Well sorry brake it to you but Lebron not his prime anymore for the record I'll take Lebron years 09,10,12, and 13 over Kobe but not any other years.

Tell me what Kobe version could do what LeBron did in 2015, 2016? (not that he was ever better than '14 LeBron either)

[Cold soul]

Lol no, not at all.

Yes, indeed very true.

[SamuraiSWISH]

2003, 2006, 2007, 2008 and possibly even 2009 would be the best individual player in the game.

Probably not the leader LeBron is for maximizing teammates potentials however, admittedly. But easily the best individual player, and skill set in the game.

[Bankaii]

2003, 2006, 2007, 2008 and possibly even 2009 would be the best individual player in the game.

Probably not the leader LeBron is for maximizing teammates potentials however, admittedly. But easily the best individual player, and skill set in the game.
There's not a single version of Kobe that can do what 20015/2016 Lebron did. Period.

Lol at you idiots thinking Kobe chucking up more shots = more production.

[SamuraiSWISH]

There's not a single version of Kobe that can do what 20015/2016 Lebron did. Period.

Lol at you idiots thinking Kobe chucking up more shots = more production.
:oldlol:

Prime Kobe with 2x All Stars and more quality role players can get through that weak ass Eastern Conference and also compete or win against that soft ass Warriors team.

If he beat the Rondo / Allen / Pierce / KG Celtics ... With just one all star player, he'd be just fine.

[Dray n Klay]

:oldlol:

Prime Kobe with 2x All Stars and more quality role players can get through that weak ass Eastern Conference and also compete or win against that soft ass Warriors team.

If he beat the Rondo / Allen / Pierce / KG Celtics ... With just one all star player, he'd be just fine.


LeBron didnt have an all-star teammate last season in 2016



LeBrons all star teammate was injured in 2015




So technically, LeBron didnt have a single allstar on his team the last 2 years.






Therefore Kobe wouldnt get out of the 1st round in place of LeBron

[AirTupac]

Lmao Arbitrary you think youre some sort of genius quoting something? Dude obviously wasnt as intense in his later years on the defensive end. EVEN IN 2007, his defence is levels about Curry. Curry is literally barely average as a defender. Kobe regularly took on the best player, AND ALWAYS took the guy whos on fire when he was engaged and it came to crunch time. He had the ability to shut down people in his prime and esp when he was younger. Curry? NOTHING. Dude is surrounded by allstar defenders to make up for his shortcomings. Dude cant come close to prime Kobe. Basketball is a two way game and Curry is not even know for anything on the defensive end. Kobe has how many defensive selections? Even if half of them are undeserved, HE STILL BLOWS CURRY OUT lmfao. Idiot

[pedromarinho]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMrdhJf2ScY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr6XsZVb-ZE

*

[Bankaii]

:oldlol:

Prime Kobe with 2x All Stars and more quality role players can get through that weak ass Eastern Conference and also compete or win against that soft ass Warriors team.

If he beat the Rondo / Allen / Pierce / KG Celtics ... With just one all star player, he'd be just fine.
I just checked and Love/Kyrie aren't on the 2016 All-star list?
If you're using your arbitrary meaning of "all-star" then Pau/Odom can both be considered all-stars.

Lol at acting like the 2010 Celtics are as good as the Warriors. Or even worse acting like Kobe beat them alone shooting in the low 40s and 25% in the final game.

I swear you can't possibly get any dumber.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kyrie 3x All Star but apparently ... not an all star
Love 3x All Star but apparently ... not an all star

This isn't a one and done All Star either. Perennials.

Odom 0x All Star but apparently ... an all star

Odom = JR. Smith. Inconsistent, 6th men of the year types. Not perrenial all stars.

Kyrie
Kobe
Jefferson
Love
TT

Could easily get out the East. And in the Finals, who knows? Kobe's game is better against west coast style of play. It's skill and finesse ball.

[Dray n Klay]

Kyrie
Kobe
Jefferson
Love
TT




Just stop it, Kobe had a team similar to that in 2007 and still lost in the first round :facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

Just stop it, Kobe had a team similar to that in 2007 and still lost in the first round :facepalm
You're right.

Smush Parker = Kyrie Irving
Kwahi Brown = Kevin Love

[tpols]

Kyrie 3x All Star but apparently ... not an all star
Love 3x All Star but apparently ... not an all star

This isn't a one and done All Star either. Perennials.

Odom 0x All Star but apparently ... an all star

Odom = JR. Smith. Inconsistent, 6th men of the year types. Not perrenial all stars.

Kyrie
Kobe
Jefferson
Love
TT

Could easily get out the East. And in the Finals, who knows? Kobe's game is better against west coast style of play. It's skill and finesse ball.


bankai is next level dumb..

still running with kyrie not being an all star after the finals lmao.

i thought that wouldve died out

[Dray n Klay]

Swish/tpols was either Kyrie or Love voted in the all star game?



Not even the coachs voted them in as reserves.




And this is in the weak east, where it is easy to make the all star team apparently










Just stop it, no one really thinks Love and Irving are all-stars

[Doranku]

Just stop it, Kobe had a team similar to that in 2007 and still lost in the first round :facepalm

:roll: Good to know that there is absolutely no punishment on this forum for blatant trolling.

Anyway, Kobe would be the best player in the game. If you want to put LeBron ahead of him, fine. Can't argue with what he did during the last playoff series he played.

But Curry? :oldlol: Dude isn't even the best player on his own team. Prime Kobe would absolutely destroy this league. DeMar DeRozan is a super poor man's Kobe, and he's averaging 35 a game. :oldlol:

If Kobe had a Westbrook-esque team next to him, he'd be pushing 40 a game.

[Cold soul]

2003, 2006, 2007, 2008 and possibly even 2009 would be the best individual player in the game.

Probably not the leader LeBron is for maximizing teammates potentials however, admittedly. But easily the best individual player, and skill set in the game.

This. One of the few best posters left on this board of trolls and morons.

[Bankaii]

Can't expect Lebron haters to have a reasonable debate.
Despite the fact that Kobe has never had a Finals as good as 2016 Lebron, and never beaten a team as goodbye as the 2016 Warriors who were a minute away from beating Lebron, somehow Kobe would magically be the better player and win.


Odom=JR. Smith.
I'm done.
Two Kobetards and a MJ nut hugger that has proven he doesn't know shit about basketball. I'm sure there's no bias:oldlol:

[Cold soul]

Can't expect Lebron haters to have a reasonable debate.
Despite the fact that Kobe has never had a Finals as good as 2016 Lebron, and never beaten a team as goodbye as the 2016 Warriors who were a minute away from beating Lebron, somehow Kobe would magically be the better player and win.


I'm done.
Two Kobetards and a MJ nut hugger that has proven he doesn't know shit about basketball. I'm sure there's no bias:oldlol:

The only person here that doesn't know anything about basketball is you. You're special kind of stupid. Go **** yourself ******.

[pedromarinho]

K8be in this league is #1

[Cold soul]

:roll: Good to know that there is absolutely no punishment on this forum for blatant trolling.

Anyway, Kobe would be the best player in the game. If you want to put LeBron ahead of him, fine. Can't argue with what he did during the last playoff series he played.

But Curry? :oldlol: Dude isn't even the best player on his own team. Prime Kobe would absolutely destroy this league. DeMar DeRozan is a super poor man's Kobe, and he's averaging 35 a game. :oldlol:

If Kobe had a Westbrook-esque team next to him, he'd be pushing 40 a game.

Don't even waste your time with these children most here never even saw 03 Kobe play live.

[Bankaii]

The only person here that doesn't know anything about basketball is you. You're special kind of stupid. Go **** yourself ******.
WOah there champ I know Kobe is your idol but don't cry too hard.
Kobe has never done anything near 2016 Lebron in the Finals. Period. Telling yourself that Kobe is better although ALL objective measures say otherwise only makes you look like a fool.

[Fire Colangelo]

:roll: Good to know that there is absolutely no punishment on this forum for blatant trolling.

Anyway, Kobe would be the best player in the game. If you want to put LeBron ahead of him, fine. Can't argue with what he did during the last playoff series he played.

But Curry? :oldlol: Dude isn't even the best player on his own team. Prime Kobe would absolutely destroy this league. DeMar DeRozan is a super poor man's Kobe, and he's averaging 35 a game. :oldlol:

If Kobe had a Westbrook-esque team next to him, he'd be pushing 40 a game.

Logic is flawed, just because DeMar wasn't as good as Kobe last season doesn't mean he didn't make improvements to his game to elevate himself this season. Not saying DeMar is as close to being as good as Kobe, since I don't think he'll keep up this level of play, but DeMar's playing at an ATG level in the past 9 or so games, not to mention he's doing it on a winning team with good players.

It's hard to determine what the general public will think about Kobe if he played in the league today. It really depends on what year we're talking about, what teammates he's playing with and what the team's record looks like. 03, 06 and 08 is generally considered his best years - lets assume he keeps the same roster as he did during those three years and had the same stats/wins as those years as well (HUGE assumption obviously but that's all we have).

Throughout the first 10 games in 2003 (without Shaq):
31/9/6 on 44% FG
3-7 team record

Throughout the first 10 games in 2006:
33/5/4 on 44% FG
4-6 team record

Throughout the first 10 games in 2008:
27/7/5 on 46% FG
7-3 team record

Are any of those season honestly better than:

Harden: 30/8/13 on 49% FG 5-4 team record
LeBron: 23/9/9 on 49% FG 8-1 team record
WB: 31/9/9 on 41% FG 6-3 team record
DeMar: 34/5/3 on 53% FG 7-2 team record
KD: 28/8/4 on 57% 7-2 team record
AD: 31/11/2 on 51% 1-9 team record
Kawhi: 26/5/3 on 46% 7-3 team record
Lillard: 31/4/5 on 50% 6-4 record

Of course, you could argue semantics about how big men are softer today, etc etc. But based on the first 10 games played this season, I'd argue Kobe could be anywhere from 1-5 depending on what you look for in a player.

He'd be pretty interchangeable with LeBron, Harden, WB, and Durant IMO. As good as guys like DeMar, AD, Hawhi, and Lillard have been this year, I don't think they reach that level yet, and will have trouble sustaining their current production.

[Wally450]

I'd say somewhere around where Harden is ranked. A green light to chuck that doesn't translate to wins.

[Smoke117]

Coach with another gem...Jr Smith = Lamar Odom :roll: :roll:

Odom was much better than Jr Smith and had a much bigger impact on the game.

[Cali Syndicate]

Both Irving and Love are very much all star caliber players. Odom was maybe once or twice at best a borderline all star.

It's funny how Lebron stans will easily try and deduce that Pippen was an all star player prior to actually being an all star but will flat out reject 2 allstars who were actual allstars. And both Irving and Love are in the prime of their careers.

[Bankaii]

Coach with another gem...Jr Smith = Lamar Odom :roll: :roll:

Odom was much better than Jr Smith and had a much bigger impact on the game.
Seriously, dude has been on a roll saying dumb shit this week:roll:

[ImKobe]

top 3, obviously... depends on if he played on a contending team or on a team with scrubs, Kobe had 3 straight Finals runs scoring 600+ pts in the Playoffs and that was past-prime KB in a league that played tougher defense, we saw a broken down Kobe with zero lift score 60 points, a season high for any player last year and win the last game of the season, he also dropped 44 on the Warriors (the one that had the best defense in the league) the year before and was averaging 27/6/6 in his 17th season, a 34 yr old Kobe was ranked top 5 in the league

[Cold soul]

WOah there champ I know Kobe is your idol but don't cry too hard.
Kobe has never done anything near 2016 Lebron in the Finals. Period. Telling yourself that Kobe is better although ALL objective measures say otherwise only makes you look like a fool.

09 Kobe in the Finals was better than 16 Lebron. Deal with it.

[aj1987]

09 Kobe in the Finals was better than 16 Lebron. Deal with it.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Good one.

[Devin Booker]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Good one.

Lets see if you're a massive Kobe hater, where would he rank if he was in his prime today?

[AirBonner]

Behind Derozan

[Mr. Jabbar]

numero uno

[aj1987]

Lets see if you're a massive Kobe hater, where would he rank if he was in his prime today?
Top 3.

You might want to check my post history before calling me a Kobe hater.

[Devin Booker]

Top 3.

You might want to check my post history before calling me a Kobe hater.

I said let's see, I didn't say you were a Kobe hater, but the responses in this thread tells you who are.

[Cold soul]

I said let's see, I didn't say you were a Kobe hater, but the responses in this thread tells you who are.

He is diehard Kobe hater don't let him tell you otherwise .

[Cold soul]

Top 3.

You might want to check my post history before calling me a Kobe hater.

Yeah top three. :facepalm

[Lebronxrings]

09 Kobe in the Finals was better than 16 Lebron. Deal with it.
:facepalm

[Devin Booker]

I feel like anything lower than top 2 is disrespectful, you telling me that one of the 10 greatest players that ever lived would be the third best player in the league if he played in todays game with these soft ass calls?

[Devin Booker]

LeBron James is the only one that would be considered better, and even then they would be going at it, I see something like 1a 1b.

[aj1987]

He is diehard Kobe hater don't let him tell you otherwise .
And you're a massive Kobe dick slurper, who just said Kobe's '09 run was better than LeBron's '16 run.


Yeah top three. :facepalm
If you think he's worse than top 3, then it's you. :oldlol:

[ClipperRevival]

Arguably #1. This is the Kobe that played on both ends and had much better stamina than twilight Kobe. Kobe started to lose a step in 2009-10. But before that, he went hard on both ends.

[Smoke117]

09 Kobe in the Finals was better than 16 Lebron.

https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

[Mr. Jabbar]

Arguably #1.

scratch arguably

[Devin Booker]

https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

I don't see "Wade" or "alcohol" in the thread title so you're posting in the wrong thread.

[Mr. Jabbar]

I don't see "Wade" or "alcohol" in the thread title so you're posting in the wrong thread.

damn.. *triggered*

[Cold soul]

And you're a massive Kobe dick slurper, who just said Kobe's '09 run was better than LeBron's '16 run.


If you think he's worse than top 3, then it's you. :oldlol:

Kobe would be #1 in today's NBA.

[Cold soul]

I don't see "Wade" or "alcohol" in the thread title so you're posting in the wrong thread.

Ouch but true.

[Bankaii]

09 Kobe in the Finals was better than 16 Lebron. Deal with it.
So putting up worse stats on worse shooting against an infinitely worse team is better?:yaohappy:
Seriously you Kobetards getting outta hand.


Arguably #1. This is the Kobe that played on both ends and had much better stamina than twilight Kobe. Kobe started to lose a step in 2009-10. But before that, he went hard on both ends.
So 04-07 Kobe played good defense now?
Seriously I ask for just ONE Lebron hater that has watched basketball before. Just one.

[SwayDizzle]

what a stupid question.

let's see, where would GOAT #5 rank in today's NBA? we are talkin about the 5th best player OF ALL TIME. there is no active player that ranks this high. closest would be lebron but are we talking about prime kobe vs current lebron? prime kobe would chew him up.

[ArbitraryWater]

09 Kobe in the Finals was better than 16 Lebron. Deal with it.

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[Kenomax]

Definiately he would be worse than:

James
Curry
Leonard
Durant
Harden
Westbrook
Davis


About the same tier or little worse than players below:
DeRozan
Paul
Cousins
Howard


So I see case for Kobe for top 10, 8th at best, but possible 12th.

[Andrei89]

09 Kobe in the Finals was better than 16 Lebron. Deal with it.


oh man :lol

[Andrei89]

2003-2008 Kobe would probably be the best player today in the regular season and 2nd best in the post season behind Lebron.

[Kenomax]

09 Kobe in the Finals was better than 16 Lebron. Deal with it.

:facepalm

[Dragonyeuw]

09 Kobe in the Finals was better than 16 Lebron. Deal with it.

Are you serious, bruh? If you just looked at their stats as many do in a bubble without context, this is patently false on that premise alone. Then you look at the fact that the 2016 Warriors are multiple tiers above the 2009 Magic and.........wat? I can't believe I just read that, or that I'm taking a minute out of my day to respond.

[aj1987]

Kobe would be #1 in today's NBA.
It's arguable. That's why I said he's top 3. He could be ranked anywhere from #1 - #3. Look at the stats some of these dude are putting up. You have guys like Harden, WB, and LeBron averaging near triple doubles and then, you have guys like DeRozan, Curry, KD, Lillard, etc. putting up ridiculous numbers on amazing efficiency. Let me list some of their numbers:

Harden - 30 PPG 8 RPG 13 APG (30 points and 13 assists a game... :eek: ) on 64% TS

LeBron - 23 PPG 9 RPG 9 APG on 56% TS

Westbrook - 32 PPG 9 RPG 10 APG on 55% TS

Durant - 28 PPG 8 RPG 4 APG on 67% TS

Curry - 27 PPG 4 RPG 6 APG on 68% TS

Lillard - 31 PPG 5 RPG 5 APG on 65% TS

AD - 31 PPG 11 RPG 2 SPG 3 BPG on 59% TS

You really can't say prime Kobe would be unconditionally better than ALL of them.

[Dragonyeuw]

Harden - 30 PPG 8 RPG 13 APG (30 points and 13 assists a game... :eek: ) on 64% TS



I have to wonder what kind of PPG Harden would be having right now if he wasn't also dishing out 13 assists. That's pretty damn insane. Granted, I don't expect most of those stat-lines above to maintain over 82 games, but it's just crazy the starts some of these guys are off to early on. I think Lebron can keep pace for 8-9 rebounds and assists, as he defers a little more of the scoring to Kyrie and Love. So a 23/9/9 statline at season's end is very do-able IMO.

[CuhGetsBucks]

In a league where Andrew Wiggins is scoring 47 points, if yall really don't think Kobe would be top 2, you're legit just hating.

[Bankaii]

In a league where Andrew Wiggins is scoring 47 points, if yall really don't think Kobe would be top 2, you're legit just hating.
Out of all the arguments ITT this takes the cake as the dumbest.

[brownmamba00]

2004-2007 Kobe a beast as a defender? :oldlol:
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_09Hr5ZbjiQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJgnX2pHk40

did you even watch bball those years?


Isiah Thomas is averagin 26/7 lol K8be would destroy this league.

[CuhGetsBucks]

Out of all the arguments ITT this takes the cake as the dumbest.
You can never win arguments you just cry and complain an argument is dumb and never defend your point. You are one of the corniest people on this whole board, go get something productive done in your life kid.

[Fire Colangelo]

In a league where Andrew Wiggins is scoring 47 points, if yall really don't think Kobe would be top 2, you're legit just hating.

In a league where Brandon Jennings and Andre Miller was scoring 50+ points, Kobe must've won MVP.

[CuhGetsBucks]

In a league where Brandon Jennings and Andre Miller was scoring 50+ points, Kobe must've won MVP.
You mean the 2009-2010 season? You mean the season Kobe and LeBron were the top 2 players in the league? You mean the year Kobe won a championship? And was the finals MVP? Lmfao stfu dumbass, yall nikkas are braindead on this website.

[aj1987]

You can never win arguments you just cry and complain an argument is dumb and never defend your point. You are one of the corniest people on this whole board, go get something productive done in your life kid.
No lie in what he said. Lets not act like complete scrubs were dropping huge games during Kobe's prime/peak. Wiggins is one of the most athletic players in the league and is a #1 pick for a reason. Acting like he's a scrub is just flat out idiotic.

[CuhGetsBucks]

No lie in what he said. Lets not act like complete scrubs were dropping huge games during Kobe's prime/peak. Wiggins is one of the most athletic players in the league and is a #1 pick for a reason. Acting like he's a scrub is just flat out idiotic.
The point was he's an athletic scorer who has no playmaking ability, not that he was a scrub. You idiots just make assumptions and would rather try to make something sound stupid to make your argument easier, not a point.

[aj1987]

The point was he's an athletic scorer who has no playmaking ability, not that he was a scrub. You idiots just make assumptions and would rather try to make something sound stupid to make your argument easier, not a point.
What's surprising when he drops 47 then? It's not like he's racking up a ton of assists.

[CuhGetsBucks]

What's surprising when he drops 47 then? It's not like he's racking up a ton of assists.
That is my point, neither is Kobe. Kobe in his prime has world class athleticism and the scoring grace of Melo. While not really looking for playmaking opportunities how would he not go on an offensive tear in this league?

[Dr Seuss]

a league full of shooters as teammates where mid range players have a field day every game? yeah, id like to see any team in that league try to stop him. 35 ppg. easy.

[Bankaii]

You can never win arguments you just cry and complain an argument is dumb and never defend your point. You are one of the corniest people on this whole board, go get something productive done in your life kid.
Throwing out ad homs because I called your argument dumb:applause:
You're argument wasn't worth breaking down.
Saying that a #1 draft pick in his 3rd year dropping 40+ points against one of the worst teams in the league in the freaking regular season means that the league is somehow weaker, and that would make Kobe top 2 is just dumb. Period.
Especially when there's some scrub that drops 40 bombs ever year, let alone a #1 overall pick.

[aj1987]

That is my point, neither is Kobe. Kobe in his prime has world class athleticism and the scoring grace of Melo. While not really looking for playmaking opportunities how would he not go on an offensive tear in this league?
And that's why he'd be a top 3 player in the league. :confusedshrug:

Are you implying that just cause Wiggins scored 47 in ONE game, that Kobe's would average near 40 or something?

Also, :roll: @ acting like the current league is weaker than in '06 or '09 etc..

[CuhGetsBucks]

Throwing out ad homs because I called your argument dumb:applause:
You're argument wasn't worth breaking down.
Saying that a #1 draft pick in his 3rd year dropping 40+ points against one of the worst teams in the league in the freaking regular season means that the league is somehow weaker, and that would make Kobe top 2 is just dumb. Period.
Especially when there's some scrub that drops 40 bombs ever year, let alone a #1 overall pick.
Yeah I threw an ad hom, what's gonna happen now?

Anyways as I said before the point was Wiggy is an athletic scorer that does not have the scoring prowess Kobe had. The 47 point game he had, won't be the only one AW has this season. Kobe who is more efficient and a better shooter than AW with similar athleticism would go on a tear in this current league.

The post had nothing to do with AW being a "scrub", more so he is the same type of player as Kobe (Extremely athletic scorer) and doesn't score as well as Kobe.

[CuhGetsBucks]

And that's why he'd be a top 3 player in the league. :confusedshrug:

Are you implying that just cause Wiggins scored 47 in ONE game, that Kobe's would average near 40 or something?

Also, :roll: @ acting like the current league is weaker than in '06 or '09 etc..
LMFAOOOO, so at first it was "Wiggins is a #1 pick and one of the most athletic players in the game he will score 40" now it's "He scored 40 in just ONE game."

Prime Kobe would score 40 numerous times based on the fact he's as athletic as Wiggins was, a better scorer and a smarter player. No one mentioned anything being weak, it was a nice attempt sir.

http://cdn.churchm.ag/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Logical-Fallacies-strawman-620x391.jpg

[Cold soul]

You can never win arguments you just cry and complain an argument is dumb and never defend your point. You are one of the corniest people on this whole board, go get something productive done in your life kid.

Lol he has no life typical keyboard warrior with no future lives on here 24/7.

[aj1987]

LMFAOOOO, so at first it was "Wiggins is a #1 pick and one of the most athletic players in the game he will score 40" now it's "He scored 40 in just ONE game."

Prime Kobe would score 40 numerous times based on the fact he's as athletic as Wiggins was, a better scorer and a smarter player. No one mentioned anything being weak, it was a nice attempt sir.

http://cdn.churchm.ag/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Logical-Fallacies-strawman-620x391.jpg
:biggums: :biggums:

Do you even know what you're arguing anymore? Of course it's ONE game. Lets not act like Wiggins can do this every other game or every week. He's still putting up 26 a game on good efficiency. He will have a couple more 40+ games this season for sure, but he's not going to do it frequently. I brought up his draft position of potential to show that he's not a scrub like you implied.

Again, from my previous post:

Harden - 30 PPG 8 RPG 13 APG on 64% TS

LeBron - 23 PPG 9 RPG 9 APG on 56% TS

Westbrook - 32 PPG 9 RPG 10 APG on 55% TS

Durant - 28 PPG 8 RPG 4 APG on 67% TS

Curry - 27 PPG 4 RPG 6 APG on 68% TS

Lillard - 31 PPG 5 RPG 5 APG on 65% TS

AD - 31 PPG 11 RPG 2 SPG 3 BPG on 59% TS

That's what the elite players in the league are averaging right now. Kobe would be top 3, but acting like he's going to be the best player without question? :oldlol:

[Cold soul]

Are you serious, bruh? If you just looked at their stats as many do in a bubble without context, this is patently false on that premise alone. Then you look at the fact that the 2016 Warriors are multiple tiers above the 2009 Magic and.........wat? I can't believe I just read that, or that I'm taking a minute out of my day to respond.

Lebron wasn't even closer in Finals last year that was Kyrie. Lebron can stat pad better than any other player yeah the Warriors were easily better team than 09 Magic however to me Kobe played better than Lebron did overall. If Draymond doesn't get suspended the Cavs most likely lose and Bogut not get injuried tons of things fell in place and Cavs took advantage and won. Lebron block was super impressive at the end that sealed the deal but meh. I don't rate his Finals as high as his other performances.

[CuhGetsBucks]

Do you even know what you're arguing anymore? Of course it's ONE game. Lets not act like Wiggins can do this every other game or every week. He's still putting up 26 a game on good efficiency. He will have a couple more 40+ games this season for sure, but he's not going to do it frequently. I brought up his draft position of potential to show that he's not a scrub like you implied.

Again, from my previous post:

Harden - 30 PPG 8 RPG 13 APG on 64% TS

LeBron - 23 PPG 9 RPG 9 APG on 56% TS

Westbrook - 32 PPG 9 RPG 10 APG on 55% TS

Durant - 28 PPG 8 RPG 4 APG on 67% TS

Curry - 27 PPG 4 RPG 6 APG on 68% TS

Lillard - 31 PPG 5 RPG 5 APG on 65% TS

AD - 31 PPG 11 RPG 2 SPG 3 BPG on 59% TS

That's what the elite players in the league are averaging right now. Kobe would be top 3, but acting like he's going to be the best player without question? :oldlol:


In a league where Andrew Wiggins is scoring 47 points, if yall really don't think Kobe would be top 2, you're legit just hating.


That's what the elite players in the league are averaging right now. Kobe would be top 3, but acting like he's going to be the best player without question? :oldlol:
:lol :lol

So you're trying to argue with me about one spot? :biggums: :roll:

Who said Kobe would be the best player no question? Bruh stop replying to me I don't think YOU even know what you're arguing right now, you're just replying to get the last word at this point.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron wasn't even closer in Finals last year that was Kyrie. Lebron can stat pad better than any other player yeah the Warriors were easily better team than 09 Magic however to me Kobe played better than Lebron did overall. If Draymond doesn't get suspended the Cavs most likely lose and Bogut not get injuried tons of things fell in place and Cavs took advantage and won. Lebron block was super impressive at the end that sealed the deal but meh. I don't rate his Finals as high as his other performances.

You're sad. I dont think anyone will even bother explaining.. you have to help yourself out of this mess :lol

[plowking]

He'd be 4th best behind LeBron, Curry and Durant.

Curry is putting up 27/6/4 on 51/48/90 right now. He is simply a far more impactful offensive player than Kobe ever was. He is a back to back MVP too. Kobe was never as good as Steph was last season. Not many players were, ever, in history.

Durant's numbers are even better at the moment, and he is a better scorer and a bigger mismatch on the offensive end than Kobe ever was.

Lebron is Lebron.

I don't see how he has a case over any of them.

[aj1987]

Lebron wasn't even closer in Finals last year that was Kyrie. Lebron can stat pad better than any other player yeah the Warriors were easily better team than 09 Magic however to me Kobe played better than Lebron did overall. If Draymond doesn't get suspended the Cavs most likely lose and Bogut not get injuried tons of things fell in place and Cavs took advantage and won. Lebron block was super impressive at the end that sealed the deal but meh. I don't rate his Finals as high as his other performances.
#2 Kyrie being more clutch than LeBron:

The Cavs were struggling and LeBron scored 11 points in the 4th Q. 8 straight points at one point and scored 6 straight after GSW were up 4 and with all the momentum. Dude absolutely killed their momentum and gave the Cavs a 2pt lead. He also has the game saving block on Iggy.

Irving in the 4th Q's of the Finals:

https://s22.postimg.org/wjpp7uq8x/Screen_Shot_2016_09_06_at_11_31_25_PM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals:

https://s16.postimg.org/byk2plmv9/Screen_Shot_2016_11_14_at_5_35_09_PM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 3 games):

https://s16.postimg.org/fjfy8tret/Screen_Shot_2016_11_14_at_5_35_29_PM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 2 games):

https://s16.postimg.org/4l4oqn2th/Screen_Shot_2016_11_14_at_5_35_52_PM.png

Kyrie in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 2 games):

https://s22.postimg.org/ujhwqjbht/Screen_Shot_2016_11_14_at_5_38_08_PM.png

Dude scored 3/2/1 on 36% TS. He gets called the clutch god or whatever for making that one 3 when the game was tied. How the heck can you call LeBron a choker and Kyrie clutch AF, when it's not even close to being true.

Are you actually for real? You're trying to compare Kobe's 32/6/7/1/1 on 53% TS against a 59 win team to LeBron's 30/11/9/3/2 on 56% TS against a 73 win team?

[Dragonyeuw]

Lebron wasn't even closer in Finals last year that was Kyrie. Lebron can stat pad better than any other player yeah the Warriors were easily better team than 09 Magic however to me Kobe played better than Lebron did overall. If Draymond doesn't get suspended the Cavs most likely lose and Bogut not get injuried tons of things fell in place and Cavs took advantage and won. Lebron block was super impressive at the end that sealed the deal but meh. I don't rate his Finals as high as his other performances.

1. Kyrie being the so-called closer doesn't mean Lebron wasn't the best player. Kobe was the closer on the 2000-2002 Laker title squads. Was he the best player as well?

2. Take Draymond off the Warriors, and that team is still better than a fully healthy Magic squad. So as much as that point is brought up, what Lebron did is still impressive. And last time I checked, Lebron put up 41 in game 6, with Draymond on the floor. And won game 7....on the road.....with Draymond on the floor.

Bogut averaged 12 minutes a game in the finals. I'm not sure why people keep bringing up his name like playing a quarter's worth of basketball over a 7 game series makes some dramatic difference to the outcome. Is 3 points, rebounds, and 2 blocks a game supposed to count as impact?

[Cold soul]

1. Kyrie being the so-called closer doesn't mean Lebron wasn't the best player. Kobe was the closer on the 2000-2002 Laker title squads. Was he the best player as well?

2. Take Draymond off the Warriors, and that team is still better than a fully healthy Magic squad. So as much as that point is brought up, what Lebron did is still impressive. And last time I checked, Lebron put up 41 in game 6, with Draymond on the floor. And won game 7....on the road.....with Draymond on the floor.

Bogut averaged 12 minutes a game in the finals. I'm not sure why people keep bringing up his name like playing a quarter's worth of basketball over a 7 game series makes some dramatic difference to the outcome. Is 3 points, rebounds, and 2 blocks a game supposed to count as impact?

Well stats aren't everything my friend Bogut impact isn't always by numbers he's so good on defensive side of the call and Iggy was injuried no doubt in my mind he wasn't close to 100% he barely had any lift on that dunk that Lebron blocked. Kobe during 00-02 was better than Shaq at times during playoffs but overall impact. Lebron was super impressive no dount about it but I'll still take his 12/13 finals over last year. Lebron leadership has greatly increased.

[Cold soul]

He'd be 4th best behind LeBron, Curry and Durant.

Curry is putting up 27/6/4 on 51/48/90 right now. He is simply a far more impactful offensive player than Kobe ever was. He is a back to back MVP too. Kobe was never as good as Steph was last season. Not many players were, ever, in history.

Durant's numbers are even better at the moment, and he is a better scorer and a bigger mismatch on the offensive end than Kobe ever was.

Lebron is Lebron.

I don't see how he has a case over any of them.

https://media.tenor.co/images/2183390c33417d017eaed6a53d80fb64/raw

[ArbitraryWater]

Well stats aren't everything my friend Bogut impact isn't always by numbers he's so good on defensive side of the call and Iggy was injuried no doubt in my mind he wasn't close to 100% he barely had any lift on that dunk that Lebron blocked. Kobe during 00-02 was better than Shaq at times during playoffs but overall impact. Lebron was super impressive no dount about it but I'll still take his 12/13 finals over last year. Lebron leadership has greatly increased.

Igoudala wrote an entire article on the block and didn't mention being limited once...

its funny how you mention him hobbling, which was game 6, but do not mention Irving making one FG that entire second half after 20 points in the first half, as he hurt himself to start the second half, at the same time as Iggy did....

The Cavs outscored the Warriors with Bogut on the floor you big doofus :facepalm

LeBron absolutely shit on Kobe in terms of scoring, scoring in the clutch, rebounding, playmaking, defending (we havent even mentioned how drastic that difference is), against the greatest regular season team of all time, while Kobe played one of the worse finals teams...

[ArbitraryWater]

https://media.tenor.co/images/2183390c33417d017eaed6a53d80fb64/raw

Thats ironic considering you are the current laughing stock with that finals comment you made

[Cold soul]

Thats ironic considering you are the current laughing stock with that finals comment you made

Lol coming from the guy with 26k post since Jan 14. Do you ever see the light during the day? :oldlol:

[Dragonyeuw]

Well stats aren't everything my friend Bogut impact isn't always by numbers he's so good on defensive side of the call and Iggy was injuried no doubt in my mind he wasn't close to 100% he barely had any lift on that dunk that Lebron blocked. Kobe during 00-02 was better than Shaq at times during playoffs but overall impact. Lebron was super impressive no dount about it but I'll still take his 12/13 finals over last year. Lebron leadership has greatly increased.

One stat above all tells the story with Bogut, and that's the amount of time he played. 12 mins a night with what he produced isn't enough to majorly effect the outcome of the series. Let's not forget that Lebron took 2 games off the same team in 2015 without either of his next best players around him. I really don't care about the injury excuses, because the injury gods basically gifted the Warriors the 2015 title. Everyone is banged up at the end of the year, and the reality is that Warriors were good enough, injuries and all, to get to the finals and go up 3-1. All the injury excuses, suspension excuses doesn't change the reality that the Warriors still could have closed the deal. Kyrie was injured at the end of game 6 going into game 7. No excuses, Golden State lost and frankly were lucky Durant and Westbrook choked away the series in the previous round.

[raprap]

What Derozan is doing now..... just imagine Kobe in that same situation.
45% fg?

[Doranku]

Anyone notice that the foreigners on this site (AutisticWater, plowking, LeBron23, etc) never have a clue what they're talking about on ANY basketball-related subject?

[Lebron23]

Anyone notice that the foreigners on this site (AutisticWater, plowking, LeBron23, etc) never have a clue what they're talking about on ANY basketball-related subject?


STFU. This is the first time I posted in this thread.

[plowking]

Anyone notice that the foreigners on this site (AutisticWater, plowking, LeBron23, etc) never have a clue what they're talking about on ANY basketball-related subject?

So where does Kobe rank then?

Is he better than Curry who just had a better regular season than Kobe has ever had?
Or is he better than LeBron who has been to 6 straight finals now, and put up a better finals performance than Kobe ever has?
Or is he better than the 6'11 guy who can shoot better, and score better at the ring than Kobe ever could? You know the one shooting 58% from the field and 40% from 3 point land?

I'm just wondering which of my comments were ridiculous? You're a f*cking moron who can't even speak for himself. Instead you make a comment and look for immediate support from the forum. Pleb. :oldlol:

[Smoke117]

Anyone notice that the foreigners on this site (AutisticWater, plowking, LeBron23, etc) never have a clue what they're talking about on ANY basketball-related subject?

And you think you do? That's adorable.

[Doranku]

So where does Kobe rank then?

Is he better than Curry who just had a better regular season than Kobe has ever had?
Or is he better than LeBron who has been to 6 straight finals now, and put up a better finals performance than Kobe ever has?
Or is he better than the 6'11 guy who can shoot better, and score better at the ring than Kobe ever could? You know the one shooting 58% from the field and 40% from 3 point land?

I'm just wondering which of my comments were ridiculous? You're a f*cking moron who can't even speak for himself. Instead you make a comment and look for immediate support from the forum. Pleb. :oldlol:

Like I said before, he would rank 1st or 2nd behind LeBron. I won't argue LeBron since his last playoff series performance speaks for itself.

But Curry and Durant? Yeah sure, these guys are great regular season players... who continuously wilt in the playoffs.

Curry's regular season last year was indeed legendary, and then he absolutely wet the bed in the playoffs, especially the finals. Does postseason play not matter?

Duran't numbers are a byproduct of playing for the Western Conference All-Star team. I mean look at these guys' playoff numbers last year:

Durant: 28/7/3 on 43/28/89
Curry: 25/6/5 on 44/40/92

'03-'08 Kobe was better than both of them every single year in the playoffs except '04. I would take '01 and '02 Kobe over both of them right now as well. It's like you guys forget how good Kobe was because of all the garbage that gets thrown around on this forum. :oldlol:


And you think you do? That's adorable.

The irony. :rolleyes:

[Dray n Klay]

Can we just all agree that Kobe would be a borderline Top 10 player and move on with it?? :facepalm

[Cold soul]

And you think you do? That's adorable.

Well you sure as hell don't either. I mean shit when comes to anything related with Kobe you just flat out hate the man you have weird obession it's unhealthy. But then again I've heard you have huge alcohol problem might need to seek help.

[Jacks3]

Peak Kobe put up impact stats/+/- numbers that were consistently better than what Durant has accomplished, which is pretty amazing considering the huge difference in scoring efficiency. I suspect this is a result of Bryant being a far better ball-handler/play-maker/passer at his best. There's also the fact that Durant's scoring efficiency falls off a cliff in the post-season to the point where he's no more efficient as a scorer than Bryant was, and still well behind in the post-season as a playmaker. lol @ Bryant not having a case over him. Get real.

[tmacattack33]

Umm...2003-2005 were slump years for Kobe.

Change this to either "Where would 2003 to 2005 Kobe rank in today's NBA"" or "Where would 2006 to 2008 Kobe rank in today's NBA?"

Because as it stands, I, and most smart bball fans would have two different answers. One for 2003-2005 Kobe and one for 2006-2008 Kobe.

[Fire Colangelo]

You mean the 2009-2010 season? You mean the season Kobe and LeBron were the top 2 players in the league? You mean the year Kobe won a championship? And was the finals MVP? Lmfao stfu dumbass, yall nikkas are braindead on this website.


Completely missed my point.... but ok.

I could've said something like: "Oh look, Jennings and Andre Miller scored 50+ in 2010, someone like current Curry or Harden would probably average 35." Sounds pretty stupid does' ?tit

I'm just pointing out how flawed your logic is, the fact that Andrew Wiggins went off for 47 points in no way indicates how Kobe would do in today's league. I could've replaced Brandon Jennings and Andre Miller with someone like Tony Delk to make the same point... and it would've been a stupid point.

Just because DeMar Derozan is averaging 35/5/5 doesn't mean Kobe will average the same or better stats. For all we know, DeRozan could go on to average 30+ for the next 5-6 years and cement himself as one of the GOAT Shooting Guards.


Throughout the first 10 games in 2003 (without Shaq):
31/9/6 on 44% FG
3-7 team record

Throughout the first 10 games in 2006:
33/5/4 on 44% FG
4-6 team record

Throughout the first 10 games in 2008:
27/7/5 on 46% FG
7-3 team record

Are any of those season honestly better than:

Harden: 30/8/13 on 49% FG 5-4 team record
LeBron: 23/9/9 on 49% FG 8-1 team record
WB: 31/9/9 on 41% FG 6-3 team record
DeMar: 34/5/3 on 53% FG 7-2 team record
KD: 28/8/4 on 57% 7-2 team record
AD: 31/11/2 on 51% 1-9 team record
Kawhi: 26/5/3 on 46% 7-3 team record
Lillard: 31/4/5 on 50% 6-4 record

Of course, you could argue semantics about how big men are softer today, etc etc. But based on the first 10 games played this season, I'd argue Kobe could be anywhere from 1-5 depending on what you look for in a player.

He'd be pretty interchangeable with LeBron, Harden, WB, and Durant IMO. As good as guys like DeMar, AD, Hawhi, and Lillard have been this year, I don't think they reach that level yet, and will have trouble sustaining their current production.

You tell me who Kobe is clearly better than.

[Rojogaqu11]

Pff.. Prime Kobe?

I get it that it sounds like hyperbole (specially to the younger guys) but he would most probably and easily be the best player in this league. At least consensus top 3.

Because the numbers we see nowadays don't tell the whole story. If they did, then people would be crowning Harden and Westbrook as better than MJ just because of their numbers through 10 games.

Basketball has evolved in the past 10 years from inside-out, slow paced and defensively focused post play to a game full of open lanes, ticky-tack fouls, three-pointer hungry teams trying to outshoot each other.

The change has happened over time and it mainly started with Nellie ball that later became somewhat successful and "mainstream" with Mike D'Antoni's teams. This doesn't mean that the skill has deteriorated or that the league is worse than before. It has just changed to a point where as teams become more concerned with three pointers, fast breaks, and opening up lanes, then also star players, and mostly those point-forwards, point-shooting guards, etc. become the "do-it-all" central points of an offense.

It's a modern renaissance of the 80's fast paced era, but now with better outside shooting that, combined with the elite athleticism of modern players, rules that allow star players to thrive at the FT and to also be protected from defensive schemes, allows high octane ball to be the norm.

I've watched players from different eras and different rules and strategies. The top players in this league like Lebron, Curry, Durant, etc. would be always in the top 7 of any era. I think prime Kobe would also be as productive as he was 10 years ago, and arguably even more, considering that he played most of his prime in a system that emphasized slow paced post play (the triangle) and not a D'antoni-style fastbreak small ball game plan.

I think he would thrive because he could do it all. But maybe even more than him, players like prime AI, prime DWade, and every other combo guard of the past would enjoy modern basketball so much, and their stats would be ridiculous. Obviously, any version of MJ would maybe force the NBA to change some current rules and officiating. Prime Shaq with the current officiating couldn't be stopped at all. All the past players would adapt to the modern game. So I think a basketball juggernaut like the Black Mamba, who basically played in both slow and fast eras, would still be the same player that earned the respect and acclaim of past and current stars alike.

[Jacks3]

Completely missed my point.... but ok.

I could've said something like: "Oh look, Jennings and Andre Miller scored 50+ in 2010, someone like current Curry or Harden would probably average 35." Sounds pretty stupid does' ?tit

I'm just pointing out how flawed your logic is, the fact that Andrew Wiggins went off for 47 points in no way indicates how Kobe would do in today's league. I could've replaced Brandon Jennings and Andre Miller with someone like Tony Delk to make the same point... and it would've been a stupid point.

Just because DeMar Derozan is averaging 35/5/5 doesn't mean Kobe will average the same or better stats. For all we know, DeRozan could go on to average 30+ for the next 5-6 years and cement himself as one of the GOAT Shooting Guards.



You tell me who Kobe is clearly better than.

You're entire argument is based on the box-score, but we already know that prime Bryant was having impact on games that went well beyond the box-score, and his impact numbers +/- numbers back this up.

For example, in 2008 his box-score numbers paled in comparison to CP3 and LeBron, yet he was the consensus best player in the game and the impact numbers back this up.

In 08 Bryant was very widely regarded as the best player in the game despite the measly 24 PER and "advanced stats" that pale in comparison to LBJ/CP3, and yet he put up better offensive +/- than anybody in game outside of Nash (who played a ton less minutes) and in fact had the best minute-adjusted numbers in the entire league along with KG.

Kobe (24 PER): +6.29
LBJ (30 PER): +5.07
CP3 (30 PER): +3.41

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AACIF1UxAphVjODbTtO57_mia/2008.txt?dl=0

I mean, they're not even close despite the gap in the box-score, which just goes to show you how amazing Bryant was and how ridiculous it is to put so much stock in the box-score. And Bryant was doing his thing on a far stronger team and much better offense to boot.

[Smoke117]

Well you sure as hell don't either. I mean shit when comes to anything related with Kobe you just flat out hate the man you have weird obession it's unhealthy. But then again I've heard you have huge alcohol problem might need to seek help.

The guy who thinks Kobe in 09 had a better finals than Lebron this past season is trying to tell people they don't know what they are talking about? :oldlol: Good stuff. And guess what? EVERYONE SHOT THAT SHIT DOWN...so I guess none of us know what we are talking about then, huh?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Anyone notice that the foreigners on this site (AutisticWater, plowking, LeBron23, etc) never have a clue what they're talking about on ANY basketball-related subject?
I've always noticed this ... they just don't know what they're talking about. Probably because they come from places where basketball just doesn't have the understanding or knowledge from fans that there is in the states. They don't play it, or talk about it like we do.

[tpols]

I've always noticed this ... they just don't know what they're talking about. Probably because they come from places where basketball just doesn't have the understanding or knowledge from fans that there is in the states. They don't play it, or talk about it like we do.


it would be like if you joined a forum and started talking cricket or rugby or some shit like you knew anything .. they literally just latch onto the best numbers / popular narrative and post smilies.

[CTbasketball92]

1. LeBron: coasting right now, but no other player is capable of his 2016 NBA Finals, he proved he still has the GOAT Gear
2. KD/Curry: These two are about the same to me. They're both not as good as LeBron because they lack the GOAT IQ, even though Bron' still scores at an elite level when he needs to.
2.5-3. Kobe: Peak Kobe is a notch below the Bron/Curry/KD, but I don't think his impact in a vaccuum would be much worse. In fact, I'm sure he'd play better than both players in the playoffs, lead a bad team to a better record than curry could, and a bit worse (maybe) than KD could.

4. Westbrook/Harden

5. Kawhi

6. CP3.

[SamuraiSWISH]

it would be like if you joined a forum and started talking cricket or rugby or some shit like you knew anything .. they literally just latch onto the best numbers / popular narrative and post smilies.
Basically. Speaking of which, what do you say we go join a cricket forum? I'll call myself ArbitrayNumbers.

[pedromarinho]

1. LeBron: coasting right now, but no other player is capable of his 2016 NBA Finals, he proved he still has the GOAT Gear
Of this season right?

And just don't put Kawhi and CP3 behind Westbrook. You even talk about bbal IQ before.

[Fire Colangelo]

You're entire argument is based on the box-score, but we already know that prime Bryant was having impact on games that went well beyond the box-score, and his impact numbers +/- numbers back this up.

For example, in 2008 his box-score numbers paled in comparison to CP3 and LeBron, yet he was the consensus best player in the game and the impact numbers back this up.

In 08 Bryant was very widely regarded as the best player in the game despite the measly 24 PER and "advanced stats" that pale in comparison to LBJ/CP3, and yet he put up better offensive +/- than anybody in game outside of Nash (who played a ton less minutes) and in fact had the best minute-adjusted numbers in the entire league along with KG.

Kobe (24 PER): +6.29
LBJ (30 PER): +5.07
CP3 (30 PER): +3.41

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AACIF1UxAphVjODbTtO57_mia/2008.txt?dl=0

I mean, they're not even close despite the gap in the box-score, which just goes to show you how amazing Bryant was and how ridiculous it is to put so much stock in the box-score. And Bryant was doing his thing on a far stronger team and much better offense to boot.

Interesting stat.

I'm not a big advanced stats guy, but I hope you realize that plus/minus is just as flawed as something like PER. I can tell you the reason why Kobe was the best player in 2008 was not solely because of his plus/minus stat.

I consider him to be the best player in the game because he played a great all around game of scoring, playmaking and defense which resulted in wins for his team.

I'm not arguing anything really, since it's going to be hard to make a realistic argument for a hypothetical topic. I'm just putting it out there that based on Kobe's first 10 games in his 03, 06 and 08 season, he could be anywhere from 1-5 depending on what you're looking for in a player.

[jstern]

The players are more advanced today, because of evolution, so he would probably rank number 12.

[CTbasketball92]

Of this season right?

And just don't put Kawhi and CP3 behind Westbrook. You even talk about bbal IQ before.

Mehh, Kawhi is interchangable, but he's definitely worse than Kobe, I don't think Kawhi could lead OKC to the record i still think Westbrook can. CP3 is not as impactful a player as Westbrook in my opinion.

[Showtime80']

People need to chill on the whole "modern basketball is like an 80's renascence" BS! Teams are still averaging only 102ppg, that's not even early to mid 90's numbers, let alone the 110+ppg of the 1980's!

The modern game has lost PLENTY of skills like post game, TRUE FAST BREAK EXECUTION, outlet passing, post entry passing, physical perimeter defense, passing out of double teams in the post ETC... All skills that have fallen by the waist side since the early 2000's and have recently been exaggeratedly replaced with the 3 point fixation of the last 6 years.

The "modern fast break" which basically means the teams SHOOT FIRST PG coming down as fast as he can just to hoist up a 3 pointer which even with all of the hoopla is still being shot at a mid 30% clip league wide!!! Compare that with the 80's fast break which routinely ended with a layup or a dunk which is shot in the 90% range not to mention the increased possibility to get fouled in the process. That's another little known aspect in today's NBA, that even with the increased pace of the modern game (when compared to the mid 90's) the FTA per game have decreased by 6 attempts (23 per game since 2010) when compared to the 80s average of 29FTA per game!!!

In the 80's and early 90's the mentality was to ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK as close to the rim and as fast as possible in both the half court and the fast break that's why offenses were able to draw more fouls on the defenses and alter their game plans in a more impactful way! Like Phil Jackson has said in the last few years, fundamentals in the modern game have GONE DOWN THE CRAPPER with classically dominant low post big men and past first PG's quarterback types (two players VITAL to play the 80's style of ball) have been in extinction since the mid 90's thus making the game more complicated for the modern offenses to become as fluid, creative, quick hitting and efficient as they were in the past.

The rule changes of the mid 2000's were a REACTION to the shift that was happening since the mid 90's after the Jordan phenomenon when teams built their offenses around the Bulls paradigm putting perimeter players at the center of the their attacks and after Jordan retired it got exposed as being HORRIBLE LOOKING BASKETBALL!!! Offenses built around players like Iverson, Carter, Marbury, Francis, Baron, McGrady, Allen, Pierce, Redd just to name a few were becoming the norm and the NBA had to do something about it specially with Shaq and Duncan being the last true dominant big man in the horizon.

Enter the ARTIFITIAL SPACING created with the elimination of the hand check and the defensive 3 seconds!!! The NBA basically saying with these new rules "If this is the sh!t offenses the league is intent on running with these dumb as rocks one and done raw athletes, lets make it as easier as possible for them to pull it off!!!"

The 3 pointer craze is not EVOLUTION, it is the SALVATION AND NECESSESITY of the modern game!!!. Remove the 3 point line and put the 80's rules in place tomorrow, what would the scoring averages dip down to? low 90's, 80's or even 70's?!?! I'd say around 85 to 90 ppg!

The whole purpose of the 3 point extravaganza is really to cover up THE ABSOLUTE SH!T modern basketball has really become. As long as Steph Curry is making the occasional 30 footer everything is well and good but wait 5 years when EVERY TEAM in the league is shooting 30 to 40 3 pointers a game, ignoring virtually EVERY other offensive skill set and talk to me about EVOLUTION THEN!!!

In closing, Kobe was a KILLER and a winner!!! He was the TRUE ALPHA DOG on those 2009 and 2010 title teams. LeBron would be his only rival for the top position, that's it. Durant, Westbrick, Harden, AD, Cousing, DeRozen for now are just STAT STUFFING CAREER LOOSERS!!!

Get the hell out of here with "10 game samples"LOL. Prove it to me in MULTIPLE SEASONS while winning titles as the team's MAIN PLAYER, then come talk to me!

[Showtime80']

Jstern,

Players today take 2 to 3 years to start showing any sign of their true potential after their one and done watered down college careers in which they apparently don't learn A GOD DAM!ED THING! Even then they STILL don't have the slightest idea about what WINNING basketball and the bad habits that the learned in flawed AAU system hinder throughout their careers. The NBA right now is STUCK with this system and their seems to be no fix in site.

Players in the 80's and early 90's stayed in school for 2 to 4 years when the NCAA was at ITS PEAK and thus resulting in players BUSTING OUT OF THE GATE and dramatically turning their teams around almost instantly. Players back then didn't go to college to LEARN FUNDAMENTALS, they went there to POLISH THEM!!! Rookies played like 4 year vets thanks to this system.

No honestly, what system do you think produced more "advanced" players and better quality basketball?!?

The NBA was at its apex when fundamentals, basketball IQ and work ethic ALL came before ATHLETICISM!!!

[aj1987]

You're entire argument is based on the box-score, but we already know that prime Bryant was having impact on games that went well beyond the box-score, and his impact numbers +/- numbers back this up.

For example, in 2008 his box-score numbers paled in comparison to CP3 and LeBron, yet he was the consensus best player in the game and the impact numbers back this up.

In 08 Bryant was very widely regarded as the best player in the game despite the measly 24 PER and "advanced stats" that pale in comparison to LBJ/CP3, and yet he put up better offensive +/- than anybody in game outside of Nash (who played a ton less minutes) and in fact had the best minute-adjusted numbers in the entire league along with KG.

Kobe (24 PER): +6.29
LBJ (30 PER): +5.07
CP3 (30 PER): +3.41

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AACIF1UxAphVjODbTtO57_mia/2008.txt?dl=0

I mean, they're not even close despite the gap in the box-score, which just goes to show you how amazing Bryant was and how ridiculous it is to put so much stock in the box-score. And Bryant was doing his thing on a far stronger team and much better offense to boot.
That's cute.

RAPM from '08:

LeBron - 6.2 (5.3 ORPM and 0.9 DRPM)
Kobe - 6.2 (5.7 ORPM and 0.5 DRPM)

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm-by-player-g-n

VORP from '08:

LeBron - 10.1
Kobe - 6.0

OBPM from '08:

LeBron - 9.0
Kobe - 5.1

DBPM from '08:

LeBron - 2.3
Kobe - 0.3

BPM from '08:

LeBron - 11.2
Kobe - 5.4

OWS from '08:

LeBron - 10.7
Kobe - 9.5

DWS from '08:

LeBron - 4.6
Kobe - 4.3

WS from '08:

LeBron - 15.2
Kobe - 13.8

WS/48 from '08:

LeBron - .242
Kobe - .208

DRtg from '09:

LeBron - 104
Kobe - 105

ORtg from '08:

LeBron - 116
Kobe - 115

LeBron murks Kobe in pretty much ever impact, raw, and advanced stat.

[SamuraiSWISH]

People need to chill on the whole "modern basketball is like an 80's renascence" BS! Teams are still averaging only 102ppg, that's not even early to mid 90's numbers, let alone the 110+ppg of the 1980's!

The modern game has lost PLENTY of skills like post game, TRUE FAST BREAK EXECUTION, outlet passing, post entry passing, physical perimeter defense, passing out of double teams in the post ETC... All skills that have fallen by the waist side since the early 2000's and have recently been exaggeratedly replaced with the 3 point fixation of the last 6 years.

The "modern fast break" which basically means the teams SHOOT FIRST PG coming down as fast as he can just to hoist up a 3 pointer which even with all of the hoopla is still being shot at a mid 30% clip league wide!!! Compare that with the 80's fast break which routinely ended with a layup or a dunk which is shot in the 90% range not to mention the increased possibility to get fouled in the process. That's another little known aspect in today's NBA, that even with the increased pace of the modern game (when compared to the mid 90's) the FTA per game have decreased by 6 attempts (23 per game since 2010) when compared to the 80s average of 29FTA per game!!!

In the 80's and early 90's the mentality was to ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK as close to the rim and as fast as possible in both the half court and the fast break that's why offenses were able to draw more fouls on the defenses and alter their game plans in a more impactful way! Like Phil Jackson has said in the last few years, fundamentals in the modern game have GONE DOWN THE CRAPPER with classically dominant low post big men and past first PG's quarterback types (two players VITAL to play the 80's style of ball) have been in extinction since the mid 90's thus making the game more complicated for the modern offenses to become as fluid, creative, quick hitting and efficient as they were in the past.

The rule changes of the mid 2000's were a REACTION to the shift that was happening since the mid 90's after the Jordan phenomenon when teams built their offenses around the Bulls paradigm putting perimeter players at the center of the their attacks and after Jordan retired it got exposed as being HORRIBLE LOOKING BASKETBALL!!! Offenses built around players like Iverson, Carter, Marbury, Francis, Baron, McGrady, Allen, Pierce, Redd just to name a few were becoming the norm and the NBA had to do something about it specially with Shaq and Duncan being the last true dominant big man in the horizon.

Enter the ARTIFITIAL SPACING created with the elimination of the hand check and the defensive 3 seconds!!! The NBA basically saying with these new rules "If this is the sh!t offenses the league is intent on running with these dumb as rocks one and done raw athletes, lets make it as easier as possible for them to pull it off!!!"

The 3 pointer craze is not EVOLUTION, it is the SALVATION AND NECESSESITY of the modern game!!!. Remove the 3 point line and put the 80's rules in place tomorrow, what would the scoring averages dip down to? low 90's, 80's or even 70's?!?! I'd say around 85 to 90 ppg!

The whole purpose of the 3 point extravaganza is really to cover up THE ABSOLUTE SH!T modern basketball has really become. As long as Steph Curry is making the occasional 30 footer everything is well and good but wait 5 years when EVERY TEAM in the league is shooting 30 to 40 3 pointers a game, ignoring virtually EVERY other offensive skill set and talk to me about EVOLUTION THEN!!!

In closing, Kobe was a KILLER and a winner!!! He was the TRUE ALPHA DOG on those 2009 and 2010 title teams. LeBron would be his only rival for the top position, that's it. Durant, Westbrick, Harden, AD, Cousing, DeRozen for now are just STAT STUFFING CAREER LOOSERS!!!

Get the hell out of here with "10 game samples"LOL. Prove it to me in MULTIPLE SEASONS while winning titles as the team's MAIN PLAYER, then come talk to me!
:applause:

[CuhGetsBucks]

People need to chill on the whole "modern basketball is like an 80's renascence" BS! Teams are still averaging only 102ppg, that's not even early to mid 90's numbers, let alone the 110+ppg of the 1980's!

The modern game has lost PLENTY of skills like post game, TRUE FAST BREAK EXECUTION, outlet passing, post entry passing, physical perimeter defense, passing out of double teams in the post ETC... All skills that have fallen by the waist side since the early 2000's and have recently been exaggeratedly replaced with the 3 point fixation of the last 6 years.

The "modern fast break" which basically means the teams SHOOT FIRST PG coming down as fast as he can just to hoist up a 3 pointer which even with all of the hoopla is still being shot at a mid 30% clip league wide!!! Compare that with the 80's fast break which routinely ended with a layup or a dunk which is shot in the 90% range not to mention the increased possibility to get fouled in the process. That's another little known aspect in today's NBA, that even with the increased pace of the modern game (when compared to the mid 90's) the FTA per game have decreased by 6 attempts (23 per game since 2010) when compared to the 80s average of 29FTA per game!!!

In the 80's and early 90's the mentality was to ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK as close to the rim and as fast as possible in both the half court and the fast break that's why offenses were able to draw more fouls on the defenses and alter their game plans in a more impactful way! Like Phil Jackson has said in the last few years, fundamentals in the modern game have GONE DOWN THE CRAPPER with classically dominant low post big men and past first PG's quarterback types (two players VITAL to play the 80's style of ball) have been in extinction since the mid 90's thus making the game more complicated for the modern offenses to become as fluid, creative, quick hitting and efficient as they were in the past.

The rule changes of the mid 2000's were a REACTION to the shift that was happening since the mid 90's after the Jordan phenomenon when teams built their offenses around the Bulls paradigm putting perimeter players at the center of the their attacks and after Jordan retired it got exposed as being HORRIBLE LOOKING BASKETBALL!!! Offenses built around players like Iverson, Carter, Marbury, Francis, Baron, McGrady, Allen, Pierce, Redd just to name a few were becoming the norm and the NBA had to do something about it specially with Shaq and Duncan being the last true dominant big man in the horizon.

Enter the ARTIFITIAL SPACING created with the elimination of the hand check and the defensive 3 seconds!!! The NBA basically saying with these new rules "If this is the sh!t offenses the league is intent on running with these dumb as rocks one and done raw athletes, lets make it as easier as possible for them to pull it off!!!"

The 3 pointer craze is not EVOLUTION, it is the SALVATION AND NECESSESITY of the modern game!!!. Remove the 3 point line and put the 80's rules in place tomorrow, what would the scoring averages dip down to? low 90's, 80's or even 70's?!?! I'd say around 85 to 90 ppg!

The whole purpose of the 3 point extravaganza is really to cover up THE ABSOLUTE SH!T modern basketball has really become. As long as Steph Curry is making the occasional 30 footer everything is well and good but wait 5 years when EVERY TEAM in the league is shooting 30 to 40 3 pointers a game, ignoring virtually EVERY other offensive skill set and talk to me about EVOLUTION THEN!!!

In closing, Kobe was a KILLER and a winner!!! He was the TRUE ALPHA DOG on those 2009 and 2010 title teams. LeBron would be his only rival for the top position, that's it. Durant, Westbrick, Harden, AD, Cousing, DeRozen for now are just STAT STUFFING CAREER LOOSERS!!!

Get the hell out of here with "10 game samples"LOL. Prove it to me in MULTIPLE SEASONS while winning titles as the team's MAIN PLAYER, then come talk to me!
Agreed with everything said here but chill on coming at the superstars in today's game. You can't complain about players shooting 3s to cover up skill deficiencies then attack DeMar DeRozan who literally plays like a 80s prototype wing. Everything else was well said though.

[Fire Colangelo]

People need to chill on the whole "modern basketball is like an 80's renascence" BS! Teams are still averaging only 102ppg, that's not even early to mid 90's numbers, let alone the 110+ppg of the 1980's!

The modern game has lost PLENTY of skills like post game, TRUE FAST BREAK EXECUTION, outlet passing, post entry passing, physical perimeter defense, passing out of double teams in the post ETC... All skills that have fallen by the waist side since the early 2000's and have recently been exaggeratedly replaced with the 3 point fixation of the last 6 years.

The "modern fast break" which basically means the teams SHOOT FIRST PG coming down as fast as he can just to hoist up a 3 pointer which even with all of the hoopla is still being shot at a mid 30% clip league wide!!! Compare that with the 80's fast break which routinely ended with a layup or a dunk which is shot in the 90% range not to mention the increased possibility to get fouled in the process. That's another little known aspect in today's NBA, that even with the increased pace of the modern game (when compared to the mid 90's) the FTA per game have decreased by 6 attempts (23 per game since 2010) when compared to the 80s average of 29FTA per game!!!

In the 80's and early 90's the mentality was to ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK as close to the rim and as fast as possible in both the half court and the fast break that's why offenses were able to draw more fouls on the defenses and alter their game plans in a more impactful way! Like Phil Jackson has said in the last few years, fundamentals in the modern game have GONE DOWN THE CRAPPER with classically dominant low post big men and past first PG's quarterback types (two players VITAL to play the 80's style of ball) have been in extinction since the mid 90's thus making the game more complicated for the modern offenses to become as fluid, creative, quick hitting and efficient as they were in the past.

The rule changes of the mid 2000's were a REACTION to the shift that was happening since the mid 90's after the Jordan phenomenon when teams built their offenses around the Bulls paradigm putting perimeter players at the center of the their attacks and after Jordan retired it got exposed as being HORRIBLE LOOKING BASKETBALL!!! Offenses built around players like Iverson, Carter, Marbury, Francis, Baron, McGrady, Allen, Pierce, Redd just to name a few were becoming the norm and the NBA had to do something about it specially with Shaq and Duncan being the last true dominant big man in the horizon.

Enter the ARTIFITIAL SPACING created with the elimination of the hand check and the defensive 3 seconds!!! The NBA basically saying with these new rules "If this is the sh!t offenses the league is intent on running with these dumb as rocks one and done raw athletes, lets make it as easier as possible for them to pull it off!!!"

The 3 pointer craze is not EVOLUTION, it is the SALVATION AND NECESSESITY of the modern game!!!. Remove the 3 point line and put the 80's rules in place tomorrow, what would the scoring averages dip down to? low 90's, 80's or even 70's?!?! I'd say around 85 to 90 ppg!

The whole purpose of the 3 point extravaganza is really to cover up THE ABSOLUTE SH!T modern basketball has really become. As long as Steph Curry is making the occasional 30 footer everything is well and good but wait 5 years when EVERY TEAM in the league is shooting 30 to 40 3 pointers a game, ignoring virtually EVERY other offensive skill set and talk to me about EVOLUTION THEN!!!

In closing, Kobe was a KILLER and a winner!!! He was the TRUE ALPHA DOG on those 2009 and 2010 title teams. LeBron would be his only rival for the top position, that's it. Durant, Westbrick, Harden, AD, Cousing, DeRozen for now are just STAT STUFFING CAREER LOOSERS!!!

Get the hell out of here with "10 game samples"LOL. Prove it to me in MULTIPLE SEASONS while winning titles as the team's MAIN PLAYER, then come talk to me!

Shit dude, why do you even post if the NBA is such a shit show compared to the 80s.

You sound like that one guy in a group that would keep talking about how good NBA live 05 was when 2k17 just released.

Game is changing every year, deal with it.

I love how you prop up 80s and 90s style of play, but then proceed to throw shade at DeRozan who pretty much plays just like an 80s/90s shooting guard killing it with the mid range. Talk about double standard.

Not to mention, you're so cliche its cringeworthy. Career losers? You do realize that everyone is a career loser until they win? That includes Jordan, Hakeem, LeBron, etc. Who is it to say one of these career losers won't up their game in the playoffs and win this year?

You do realize the only reason I brought up the 10 game sample was because that's all the data we have in terms of this season?

[CuhGetsBucks]

Shit dude, why do you even post if the NBA is such a shit show compared to the 80s.

You sound like that one guy in a group that would keep talking about how good NBA live 05 was when 2k17 just released.

Game is changing every year, deal with it.

I love how you prop up 80s and 90s style of play, but then proceed to throw shade at DeRozan who pretty much plays just like an 80s/90s shooting guard killing it with the mid range. Talk about double standard.

Not to mention, you're so cliche its cringeworthy. Career losers? You do realize that everyone is a career loser until they win? That includes Jordan, Hakeem, LeBron, etc. Who is it to say one of these career losers won't up their game in the playoffs and win this year?

You do realize the only reason I brought up the 10 game sample was because that's all the data we have in terms of this season?
In all fairness NBA Live 05 is the Kareem of NBA games. Right next to the GOAT 2K11 :rockon:

[jstern]

Jstern,

Players today take 2 to 3 years to start showing any sign of their true potential after their one and done watered down college careers in which they apparently don't learn A GOD DAM!ED THING! Even then they STILL don't have the slightest idea about what WINNING basketball and the bad habits that the learned in flawed AAU system hinder throughout their careers. The NBA right now is STUCK with this system and their seems to be no fix in site.

Players in the 80's and early 90's stayed in school for 2 to 4 years when the NCAA was at ITS PEAK and thus resulting in players BUSTING OUT OF THE GATE and dramatically turning their teams around almost instantly. Players back then didn't go to college to LEARN FUNDAMENTALS, they went there to POLISH THEM!!! Rookies played like 4 year vets thanks to this system.

No honestly, what system do you think produced more "advanced" players and better quality basketball?!?

The NBA was at its apex when fundamentals, basketball IQ and work ethic ALL came before ATHLETICISM!!!

Oh come, I was parading new NBA fans/Kobe stans from 2007, who would say that players in 2007 were more advanced than when Jordan played, even though it had been only a few years since Jordan played his last game.

[plowking]

I've always noticed this ... they just don't know what they're talking about. Probably because they come from places where basketball just doesn't have the understanding or knowledge from fans that there is in the states. They don't play it, or talk about it like we do.

Kinda like how Australia barely lost to the USA in the Olympics, despite not having anywhere near the talent? :oldlol:
Seriously... Your team of all stars almost lost to a Patty Mills led team. :oldlol:

Maybe because the rest of the world seems to know a little bit more about game-planning and the actual game itself, but just doesn't have the talent pool or athletes to compete?

Pretty amazing how you only show up in threads and rag on me when someone else has done it first. You cannot stand on your own merits. You're a pucci. You always will be. You wouldn't speak a word out of turn if we weren't on this forum, and if you did, I'd smack you in the mouth and tell you that you're just some broke bum from Chicago. Know you're place. You're an uneducated bum, who never went to college, and you have no shot at making anything of yourself. Now go play in traffic.

[sportjames23]

Well, that escalated quickly.

[Dray n Klay]

Well, Jordan went 1-9


Agreed

[plowking]

Like I said before, he would rank 1st or 2nd behind LeBron. I won't argue LeBron since his last playoff series performance speaks for itself.

But Curry and Durant? Yeah sure, these guys are great regular season players... who continuously wilt in the playoffs.

So Curry and Durant are better regular season performers? Both have had better MVP seasons than Kobe ever has. Both are putting the ball in the hoop right now better than Kobe ever has. Those are two inarguable facts.


Curry's regular season last year was indeed legendary, and then he absolutely wet the bed in the playoffs, especially the finals. Does postseason play not matter?

Sure, it happens. Kobe wet the bed in the playoffs too.


Duran't numbers are a byproduct of playing for the Western Conference All-Star team. I mean look at these guys' playoff numbers last year:

Yep, lets just ignore he is one of the most, if not the most efficient perimeter scorer ever. That isn't something that happened as soon as he joined the Warriors. I'm pretty sure he put up 28ppg on 63% TS last season.


Durant: 28/7/3 on 43/28/89
Curry: 25/6/5 on 44/40/92

I'm sorry, but are these supposed to be bad? Especially since Curry injured himself, had games where he played low minutes. He did all that in 34 minutes a game.
What about the year the Warriors won the title? Curry put up:

28/5/6 on 46/42/84... But let me guess, a BS MVP to Iggy means he played bad in the finals right? :oldlol:

That is statistically as good as any of Kobe's 3 runs to the finals btw. So yeah...


'03-'08 Kobe was better than both of them every single year in the playoffs except '04. I would take '01 and '02 Kobe over both of them right now as well. It's like you guys forget how good Kobe was because of all the garbage that gets thrown around on this forum. :oldlol:

Of course you would. You believe in narratives than actual facts and statistics. Kobe never played in a league that was this competitive. Another fact. Look at the years he won the title. Beating the Nets and Sixers. Beating Orlando and beating Boston after a 49 win season.

[sportjames23]

Agreed

Do you really want me for an enemy again? :coleman:

[Jacks3]

That's cute.

RAPM from '08:

LeBron - 6.2 (5.3 ORPM and 0.9 DRPM)
Kobe - 6.2 (5.7 ORPM and 0.5 DRPM)

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm-by-player-g-n

VORP from '08:

LeBron - 10.1
Kobe - 6.0

OBPM from '08:

LeBron - 9.0
Kobe - 5.1

DBPM from '08:

LeBron - 2.3
Kobe - 0.3

BPM from '08:

LeBron - 11.2
Kobe - 5.4

OWS from '08:

LeBron - 10.7
Kobe - 9.5

DWS from '08:

LeBron - 4.6
Kobe - 4.3

WS from '08:

LeBron - 15.2
Kobe - 13.8

WS/48 from '08:

LeBron - .242
Kobe - .208

DRtg from '09:

LeBron - 104
Kobe - 105

ORtg from '08:

LeBron - 116
Kobe - 115

LeBron murks Kobe in pretty much ever impact, raw, and advanced stat.

I'm not sure what the point of this post was. I already acknowledged that LBJ killed him in the box-score, which is why I posted their PER, but thanks for providing the rest of these numbers. It just reinforces my point.

RAPM (reg season+ playoffs):

Bryant: +6.58
LeBron: +6.33

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AACIF1UxAphVjODbTtO57_mia/2008.txt?dl=0

Clearly peak Bryant was a guy with astronomical impact outside the box-score, and he was far better than his box-score numbers, which was the gist of my response to the post I quoted.

Thanks again for posting the rest of the box-score numbers though buddy.

[aj1987]

I'm not sure what the point of this post was. I already acknowledged that LBJ killed him in the box-score, which is why I posted their PER, but thanks for providing the rest of these numbers. It just reinforces my point.

RAPM (reg season+ playoffs):

Bryant: +6.58
LeBron: +6.33

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AACIF1UxAphVjODbTtO57_mia/2008.txt?dl=0

Clearly peak Bryant was a guy with astronomical impact outside the box-score, and he was far better than his box-score numbers, which was the gist of my response to the post I quoted.

Thanks again for posting the rest of the box-score numbers though buddy.
I've posted RAPM as well, which isn't a box score stat. Neither are OSW, DSW, WS, WS/48, etc.. Literally the only single stat which gives Kobe the edge is that dropbox sheet you posted. I posted RAPM (https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm-by-player-g-n) as well, for both players. Kobe and LeBron are tied in that that. Literally every other stat and metric show how significantly better LeBron was.

BTW, Manu and Nash had more impact than Kobe according to your little stat. :roll:

Lets also not forget that LeBron was significantly more clutch than Kobe in '08 as well.

LeBron in the clutch in '08:
https://s14.postimg.org/9w4iv57s1/Screen_Shot_2016_11_15_at_3_01_39_AM.png

Kobe in the clutch in '08:
https://s14.postimg.org/3tww4njc1/Screen_Shot_2016_11_15_at_3_01_22_AM.png

[Jacks3]

I've posted RAPM as well, which isn't a box score stat. Neither are OSW, DSW, WS, WS/48, etc.. Literally the only single stat which gives Kobe the edge is that dropbox sheet you posted. I posted RAPM (https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm-by-player-g-n) as well, for both players. Kobe and LeBron are tied in that that. Literally every other stat and metric show how significantly better LeBron was.

BTW, Manu and Nash had more impact than Kobe according to your little stat. :roll:

Lets also not forget that LeBron was significantly more clutch than Kobe in '08 as well.

LeBron in the clutch in '08:
https://s14.postimg.org/9w4iv57s1/Screen_Shot_2016_11_15_at_3_01_39_AM.png

Kobe in the clutch in '08:
https://s14.postimg.org/3tww4njc1/Screen_Shot_2016_11_15_at_3_01_22_AM.png

PER, WS, WS48, DSW etc are all advanced box-score stats. They're all derived from the box-score. I have no idea why you feel the need to post their clutch numbers when I obviously wasn't comparing them as players, but merely trying to illustrate how deceiving the box-score can be. I could have just as easily gone with 08 CP3.

CP3's PER/WS/BPM/WS48 numbers all look FAR better...here are their impact numbers.

Reg season:
08 Kobe: +6.1
08 Paul: +3

Reg season+ playoffs:
08 Kobe: +6.58
08 Paul: +2.51

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AACIF1UxAphVjODbTtO57_mia/2008.txt?dl=0


My initial point remains the same.

As for Manu and Nash, well, they both played far less minutes than Bryant...but they're also two guys who had huge impact outside the box-score (Nash is pretty much the poster boy for having +/- numbers that consistently look much better than his box-score) . Again, how does any of that change the gist of what I'm trying to get at?

[aj1987]

PER, WS, WS48, DSW etc are all advanced box-score stats. They're all derived from the box-score. I have no idea why you feel the need to post their clutch numbers when I obviously wasn't comparing them as players, but merely trying to illustrate how deceiving the box-score can be. I could have just as easily gone with CP3. My point remains the same.
:biggums:

Go back and read your first post I quoted. You DID compare them as players and said that Kobe was the best player in '08 and that his "impact" backed it up. I just PROVED to you that LeBron shits on anything Kobe did in '08 and I INCLUDED RAMP as well (which had them tied and was literally the only stat which had them tied).

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm-by-player-g-n

Again, by EVERY metric, other than the one from your dropbox sheet, LeBron had more impact than Kobe and it's not particularly close either.


As for Manu and Nash, well, they both played far less minutes than Bryant...but they're also two guys who had huge impact outside the box-score. Again, how does any of that change the gist of what I'm trying to get at?
Bosh, Chandler (he was on CP3's team), Nash, Davis, Peja (same as Chandler), Battier, and a TON of other played nearly the same minutes as CP3, but somehow they had more "impact" according to your stat than CP3. The dude who nearly won MVP that season and was 2nd in voting.

Great stat. :applause:

[Jacks3]

:biggums:

Go back and read your first post I quoted. You DID compare them as players and said that Kobe was the best player in '08 and that his "impact" backed it up. I just PROVED to you that LeBron shits on anything Kobe did in '08 and I INCLUDED RAMP as well (which had them tied and was literally the only stat which had them tied).

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm-by-player-g-n

Again, by EVERY metric, other than the one from your dropbox sheet, LeBron had more impact than Kobe and it's not particularly close either.


Bosh, Chandler (he was on CP3's team), Nash, Davis, Peja (same as Chandler), Battier, and a TON of other played nearly the same minutes as CP3, but somehow they had more "impact" according to your stat than CP3. The dude who nearly won MVP that season and was 2nd in voting.

Great stat. :applause:

I said that Bryant was widely regarded as the best player (true) despite his pedestrian box-score numbers (relatively speaking) but it's understandable that people could think this once you look at his minute-adjusted RAPM numbers. None of the box-score numbers you posted are impact stats except for RAPM. That's the only stat the +/- family. All you did was help reinforce my point. Thanks again for that. Again, the entire point of my post was that it's very possible for some players to have impact that matches or even exceeds the impact of other players that kill them in the box-score (08 Bryant vs 08 LBJ/08 CP3 is a very good example of this), and that's why we have to be very careful to not put too much stock in the box-score (like the poster I initially quoted was doing). The box-score IMO captures a very small sliver of player impact. That's literally it. That was my entire point. I don't care if you think LBJ was better in 08. That's fine. I was just using him as an example.

[Dr Hawk]

Do you really want me for an enemy again? :coleman:

You are a free man bro

https://media3.giphy.com/media/U4GuQaNEAV74Q/200.gif#4

http://i0.wp.com/www.interview-with-your-consciousness.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/break-the-chains_2.jpg

[sportjames23]

You are a free man bro

https://media3.giphy.com/media/U4GuQaNEAV74Q/200.gif#4

http://i0.wp.com/www.interview-with-your-consciousness.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/break-the-chains_2.jpg


I try to keep my word, but the likes of Dray n Klay make it almost impossible.

[Zeppelin]

Guys, I love Kobe. A true great and one of the most fun players to watch ever.
But he is not a better basketball player than Lebron James (whom I religiously root against). That is obvious at this point. Stop.

[ArbitraryWater]

I've always noticed this ... they just don't know what they're talking about. Probably because they come from places where basketball just doesn't have the understanding or knowledge from fans that there is in the states. They don't play it, or talk about it like we do.

Coach and his simple life of the identity world.. :oldlol:

sum up more posters vaguely.. use dat buzz word, coach! The proud murricanism


I would take '01 and '02 Kobe over both of them right now as well.

this is why nobody thinks highly of Kobetards... you guys are flatout retarded. Even you, being one of the 'better' fans... its just a completely different level of Kobe romanticizing.

[Doranku]

So Curry and Durant are better regular season performers? Both have had better MVP seasons than Kobe ever has. Both are putting the ball in the hoop right now better than Kobe ever has. Those are two inarguable facts.

Curry has had TWO regular seasons on par with Kobe's prime. Let's see him keep this up for 3-4 more years before calling him a better regular season player than Kobe.

Durant has had more years of great scoring efficiency.. if you want to call him a better regular season player, whatever. But Kobe is a better playoff performer. Outside of '11-12, Durant has been pretty mediocre in the playoffs given the standard he sets during the regular season.


Sure, it happens. Kobe wet the bed in the playoffs too.

Not with the frequency/magnitude that Steph and Durant do. Steph's regular season -> playoff dropoff during his past 2 MVP seasons is Wilt-esque. Sure, in 2015 his numbers look pretty good. Then you factor in he played teams plagued by injuries in EVERY round and lost FMVP to a role player... then it doesn't look so good.

Granted, I agree with you. He deserved the FMVP over Iggy. But given the circumstances, he should have played better than he did throughout the playoffs. And we all know what happened last year... for both of these guys. Both went ghost mode after taking 3-1 leads against inferior teams (yes, OKC was better than GS during that series last year).




Yep, lets just ignore he is one of the most, if not the most efficient perimeter scorer ever. That isn't something that happened as soon as he joined the Warriors. I'm pretty sure he put up 28ppg on 63% TS last season.

Yeah... in the regular season. In the playoffs, his efficiency is hardly better than Kobe's at all, and the numbers will continue to get closer as Durant gets older and declines.




I'm sorry, but are these supposed to be bad? Especially since Curry injured himself, had games where he played low minutes. He did all that in 34 minutes a game.
What about the year the Warriors won the title? Curry put up:

28/5/6 on 46/42/84... But let me guess, a BS MVP to Iggy means he played bad in the finals right? :oldlol:

That is statistically as good as any of Kobe's 3 runs to the finals btw. So yeah...


I addressed part of this above. I'm not saying those stats are "bad", but when you're comparing them to prime Kobe, they fall short.



Of course you would. You believe in narratives than actual facts and statistics. Kobe never played in a league that was this competitive. Another fact. Look at the years he won the title. Beating the Nets and Sixers. Beating Orlando and beating Boston after a 49 win season.

lmao what? This might be the least competitive a professional sports season has ever been. The finals may very well be written in stone, and it's been that way since the offseason.

Sure the Clippers look great right now, but we all know they're pretenders and can't beat GS in a 7 game series. The East... I mean just lol. No one else is even in the same stratosphere as the stacked Cavs. It's a joke.

[Doranku]

this is why nobody thinks highly of Kobetards... you guys are flatout retarded. Even you, being one of the 'better' fans... its just a completely different level of Kobe romanticizing.

I'm sorry but there is no universe that exists where current Durant or Curry could replicate what Kobe did in the '01 playoffs on both sides of the ball. Dude was masterful against GREAT competition (Blazers who took them to 7 a year before, Kings who took them to 7 a year later, and the DRob/prime Duncan Spurs).

And then you factor in that this was in 2001, the midst of arguably the greatest defensive era in NBA history. Durant and Steph never played under those rules, you have no idea how it might limit them. It sure isn't going to help their frail asses.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm sorry but there is no universe that exists where current Durant or Curry could replicate what Kobe did in the '01 playoffs on both sides of the ball. Dude was masterful against GREAT competition (Blazers who took them to 7 a year before, Kings who took them to 7 a year later, and the DRob/prime Duncan Spurs).

And then you factor in that this was in 2001, the midst of arguably the greatest defensive era in NBA history. Durant and Steph never played under those rules, you have no idea how it might limit them. It sure isn't going to help their frail asses.

They wouldn't, thats true, they'd still win though, and act as far more compliant pieces to Shaq... in the regular season Kobe wanted to go for the MVP, he actually said so, he thought the triangle was holding him back... he chucked so much and was so hard to deal with, Phil was contemplating trading him, can you imagine that? Only in his stretch on the bench of 10+ during his injury, during which the Lakers won more games % wise than with Kobe, did he see a way he should adjust to the team, not the other way around. So KD/Curry next to Shaq most likely wrap up the #1 record that year.

And why is 2002 continued to be thrown in there with 2001? He wasn't exactly uprising in the regular season, which could be because he got married that year, and then in the playoffs had a disastrous two of four rounds.

The level of weight he had to carry those years, doesnt compare to what Curry did last year as #1 guy on his team, he must have decided like 10 games himself by his final two minute clutch shot making, and thats while having been efficient enough before. Its too big of a difference between #1 and #2 in pressure, expectations, etc. and I do agree that generally Kobe is better than Durant, probably, but not 2001 and 2002.... please.

[tpols]

Curry and Durant haven't proven it in the playoffs yet.. both have gotten bullied out many a time and thats the main difference right now.


It would just be Kobe and Lebron alone at the top..


but unlike in the late '00s Lebron's shooting / scoring / spacing is much worse now, and with Kobe basically being a Jordan version of derozan it would get very ugly for the league pretty quick.

[aj1987]

I said that Bryant was widely regarded as the best player (true) despite his pedestrian box-score numbers (relatively speaking) but it's understandable that people could think this once you look at his minute-adjusted RAPM numbers. None of the box-score numbers you posted are impact stats except for RAPM. That's the only stat the +/- family. All you did was help reinforce my point. Thanks again for that. Again, the entire point of my post was that it's very possible for some players to have impact that matches or even exceeds the impact of other players that kill them in the box-score (08 Bryant vs 08 LBJ/08 CP3 is a very good example of this), and that's why we have to be very careful to not put too much stock in the box-score (like the poster I initially quoted was doing). The box-score IMO captures a very small sliver of player impact. That's literally it. That was my entire point. I don't care if you think LBJ was better in 08. That's fine. I was just using him as an example.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Please try to read my entire post and not just the first 2 or 3 words. No point in repeating my posts over and over again.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12673726&postcount=144

[Cold soul]

Guys, I love Kobe. A true great and one of the most fun players to watch ever.
But he is not a better basketball player than Lebron James (whom I religiously root against). That is obvious at this point. Stop.

I think most of us don't disagree with this at all.

[Prometheus]

The version of Kobe that outscored the Mavericks through three quarters would be the best player alive right now. LeBron reached a higher peak a few years ago, but that Kobe was better than current LeBron. Short f*cking memories of you people, my god. Kobe was a monster.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kinda like how Australia barely lost to the USA in the Olympics, despite not having anywhere near the talent?
Yeah but that was like the first time EVER they made it close. Our team still won. And at the time was still feeling itself out.

Not to mention, we didn't even send our 2x best players. Actually, we didn't send our seven best players either (sans Durant)

LeBron James
Steph Curry
Anthony Davis
James Harden
Kawhi Leonard
Russell Westbrook
Chris Paul

Don't even try to pretend Australia could hang with the team we did send, for multiple games, let alone the team we DIDN'T send.


Seriously... Your team of all stars almost lost to a Patty Mills led team. :oldlol:
What's "almost" worth?


Maybe because the rest of the world seems to know a little bit more about game-planning and the actual game itself, but just doesn't have the talent pool or athletes to compete?
Probably because USA doesn't care about inferior euro ball. We roll teams out, thrown together at the last minute, with very little adjustment to rules and still win easily.


Pretty amazing how you only show up in threads and rag on me when someone else has done it first.
How was I "ragging on you"? All I did was agree with someone else's words. Also, why are you so damn angry about it? Most of the foreigners on here don't know fuhck all about basketball. And they sure as hell don't grow up with it in their blood, talking about it, and ESPECIALLY playing it the way Americans do.


You wouldn't speak a word out of turn if we weren't on this forum, and if you did, I'd smack you in the mouth and tell you that you're just some broke bum from Chicago. Know you're place. You're an uneducated bum, who never went to college, and you have no shot at making anything of yourself. Now go play in traffic.
Um, ok Crocodile Dundee. You sure know me real well.

:eek:

[Dray n Klay]

The version of Kobe that outscored the Mavericks through three quarters would be the best player alive right now. LeBron reached a higher peak a few years ago, but that Kobe was better than current LeBron. Short f*cking memories of you people, my god. Kobe was a monster.



Current LeBron just had a better Finals than Prime Jordan, and now you want to argue that Prime Kobe would be better? :roll: :roll:






Did you just realize you indirectly admitted Prime Kobe >> Prime Jordan? :cheers:

[Showtime80']

Please stop spouting this nonsense about LeBron having a better Finals than prime Jordan. Here are Jordan's stats for the Finals in his "prime years":

1991 against Lakers:

31ppg 7rbs 11assts 3stls 1bkls- 56%FG 50%3PT 84%FT

1992 against Blazers:

36ppg 5rbs 7assts 2stls- 53%FG 43%3PT 89%FT

1993 against Suns

41ppg 9rbs 6assts 2stls- 51%FG 40%3PT 70%FT

Look at the EFFICIENCY of Michael Jordan!!! Those are dominant CENTER NUMBERS!!!

LeBron had the cushion of having another guy average 27ppg in the Finals while Michael HAD TO SCORE a ton for those Bulls to just be competitive and he STILL filled up the stat sheet at a more efficient clip!

[Dray n Klay]

^


Pace adjust those stats



Compare the opponent defensive ratings (dtrg)



Compare the oppoenent team strength (SRAS)













LeBrons was better and it's not even close

[Bankaii]

I think most of us don't disagree with this at all.
No he's right. I'm pretty sure you and a couple other Kobetards are the only ones dumb enough to think Kobe was ever better than Lebron.
Even 2016 Lebron is better than Kobe ever was

[Showtime80']

Here you go:

91 Lakers: SRS=6.76 (3rdf in the league), Def Rtg= 105.0 (5th in the league)

92 Blazers: SRS=6.94 (2nd in the league), Def Rtg=104.2 (3rd in the league)

93 Suns: 6.27= (3rd in the league), Def Rtg= 106.7 (9th in the league)

The 2016 PLAYOFF Warriors were completely different than the regular season team and got exposed as being SOFT and inconsistent. If it wasn't for Kevin Durant/Westbrick dumbas! play the Warriors wouldn't have even made the Finals.

The 91-93 Bulls and Michael Jordan would've kicked the crap out of the 16' Warriors in 4 to 6 games at the most and Michael would've gone crazy against that soft as! defense.

[SouBeachTalents]

Please stop spouting this nonsense about LeBron having a better Finals than prime Jordan. Here are Jordan's stats for the Finals in his "prime years":

1991 against Lakers:

31ppg 7rbs 11assts 3stls 1bkls- 56%FG 50%3PT 84%FT

1992 against Blazers:

36ppg 5rbs 7assts 2stls- 53%FG 43%3PT 89%FT

1993 against Suns

41ppg 9rbs 6assts 2stls- 51%FG 40%3PT 70%FT

Look at the EFFICIENCY of Michael Jordan!!! Those are dominant CENTER NUMBERS!!!

LeBron had the cushion of having another guy average 27ppg in the Finals while Michael HAD TO SCORE a ton for those Bulls to just be competitive and he STILL filled up the stat sheet at a more efficient clip!

Who's Finals were better is debatable, but LeBron's Finals this year are at worst on par with Jordan's first 3 Finals imo. Dude led BOTH teams in every statistical category, averaging a near triple double while defeating a 73 win team

[Showtime80']

No big surprise SouthBeach!

LeBron's main rival at the other end in the Finals Steph Curry absolutely STUNK UP THE JOINT with his averages PLUMMETING from the regular season.

On the other hand check out Magic, Drexler and Barkley's Finals stats from 91 and 93, they stayed consistent or played ABOVE their season averages.

Michael took those guy's best shot and just went to ANOTHER LEVEL!

Curry and the Warriors proved EXACTLY what me and A LOT of other people thought about them, a soft perimeter oriented team with an inflated record thanks to a watered down 32 team league (Spurs won 67 games) led by a fragile superstar who gets shaken when the physicality jumps to another notch.

[Smoke117]

This thread has degenerated into a bunch of stans arguing about pointless shit. If only the rest of ish could be as objective as I am. :confusedshrug:

[NBAGOAT]

No big surprise SouthBeach!

LeBron's main rival at the other end in the Finals Steph Curry absolutely STUNK UP THE JOINT with his averages PLUMMETING from the regular season.

On the other hand check out Magic, Drexler and Barkley's Finals stats from 91 and 93, they stayed consistent or played ABOVE their season averages.

Michael took those guy's best shot and just went to ANOTHER LEVEL!

Curry and the Warriors proved EXACTLY what me and A LOT of other people thought about them, a soft perimeter oriented team with an inflated record thanks to a watered down 32 team league (Spurs won 67 games) led by a fragile superstar who gets shaken when the physicality jumps to another notch.

last year was the 1st time in a long time both conferences felt watered down. You're insane if you think the West was watered down from 10-15. Ik some here will argue that a conference has never been better.


On to the question, I'm going assume we're talking about just this year. Don't see Curry or KD having peak level seasons(16 and 14) playing together and don't think lebron's going be as good as he was last year so peak Kobe which is 06 or 08 Kobe is the best in the league. However a year like 04 or 05 Kobe is likely not even top 3.

[Ben Simons]

Prime Kobe is not much different from Westbrook in terms of impact. Kobe was the better scorer, but Westbrook does other things at higher rates than Kobe. Ultimately, they can't elevate a team beyond anything but lower seeds without superstars around them. And yes, Pau was a superstar, as was Phil Jackson.

[SamuraiSWISH]

No big surprise SouthBeach!

LeBron's main rival at the other end in the Finals Steph Curry absolutely STUNK UP THE JOINT with his averages PLUMMETING from the regular season.

On the other hand check out Magic, Drexler and Barkley's Finals stats from 91 and 93, they stayed consistent or played ABOVE their season averages.

Michael took those guy's best shot and just went to ANOTHER LEVEL!

Curry and the Warriors proved EXACTLY what me and A LOT of other people thought about them, a soft perimeter oriented team with an inflated record thanks to a watered down 32 team league (Spurs won 67 games) led by a fragile superstar who gets shaken when the physicality jumps to another notch.
https://media.giphy.com/media/NnGGHE0muVqpO/giphy.gif

[Prometheus]

This thread has degenerated into a bunch of stans arguing about pointless shit. If only the rest of ish could be as objective as I am. :confusedshrug:

Props, homie. You ARE objective. I appreciate that about you. You're like me but a little more hardcore of a fan, plus a case of crippling alcoholism.

[ArbitraryWater]

Props, homie. You ARE objective. I appreciate that about you. You're like me but a little more hardcore of a fan, plus a case of crippling alcoholism.

:oldlol:

at least both of you don't have a bunch of soft spots ala Coach

[SamuraiSWISH]

:oldlol:

at least both of you don't have a bunch of soft spots ala Coach
The only thing soft is your weiner schnitzel consuming German jaw.

After one of your classmates busted you up, making you leak in front of all the women in your grade school.

GTFO here you Nazi Snitch.


Props, homie. You ARE objective. I appreciate that about you. You're like me but a little more hardcore of a fan, plus a case of crippling alcoholism.
:biggums:

He hates Kobe / D-Rose with a passion. Doesn't like Jordan all that much due to Pippen stan genetic inferiority complex. And stans: D-Rob, Wade, Ray Allen, and Chris Paul.

LMAO @ Smoke117 being "objective".

Not to mention the substance abuse altering his mental state, and what also seems to be a case of frightening anger problems. Amped up due to alcohol, or possibly bipolar?

[plowking]

Yeah but that was like the first time EVER they made it close. Our team still won. And at the time was still feeling itself out.

Not to mention, we didn't even send our 2x best players. Actually, we didn't send our seven best players either (sans Durant)

LeBron James
Steph Curry
Anthony Davis
James Harden
Kawhi Leonard
Russell Westbrook
Chris Paul

Don't even try to pretend Australia could hang with the team we did send, for multiple games, let alone the team we DIDN'T send.


What's "almost" worth?

What is almost worth? Plenty. That Australia squad shouldn't have come within 35 points. Yet the rest of the world had close games throughout the Olympics with you. Plenty of countries didn't send their best players.



Probably because USA doesn't care about inferior euro ball. We roll teams out, thrown together at the last minute, with very little adjustment to rules and still win easily.

Ah right. Inferior Euro ball, but when that style of ball won in 04, what was it then?


How was I "ragging on you"? All I did was agree with someone else's words. Also, why are you so damn angry about it? Most of the foreigners on here don't know fuhck all about basketball. And they sure as hell don't grow up with it in their blood, talking about it, and ESPECIALLY playing it the way Americans do.


You're just a lil biitch. You only come in and try and shit on others when it is already happening. Typical only fight in pack mentality. Not your problem you're a little sheep. It is who you are.
Sure, the foreigners don't know shit about basketball, yet you were the one saying AI didn't dominate the ball much in his Sixers days. Please teach the board some more. :oldlol:

Hey, quick question COACH. How many countries have you lived in? Just America? :oldlol: Cooooool... So how would you know what kids grow up with, what aspirations they have? You don't even know how popular basketball is in some European countries. I've probably lived in more than you'll ever visit in your whole life. If you want to get educated on it, I'll be happy to teach you.


AW, might be a wank, but at least he reminded me of that time you pretended to be some top notch COACH. :oldlol:
Hilarious you stuck around after making that Lakers/Kobe alt account and someone actually found you laughing at one of your own jokes in a thread. You really do have that pack mentality. You literally can't stand on your own two. Even had to get an alt to laugh at some shitty joke you made on your main because no one else did. :oldlol:


Um, ok Crocodile Dundee. You sure know me real well.


Crocodile Dundee indeed. You keep telling me all about the world you haven't seen because you haven't ever left Chicago. You seem to know what they're thinking. :oldlol:

[Dray n Klay]

Who's Finals were better is debatable, but LeBron's Finals this year are at worst on par with Jordan's first 3 Finals imo. Dude led BOTH teams in every statistical category, averaging a near triple double while defeating a 73 win team


With 0 all-star teammates as well...

[plowking]

https://media.giphy.com/media/NnGGHE0muVqpO/giphy.gif

Is this anotherone of your alts? Fits the bill perfectly. Lakers themed, and you going in with a gif or smilie to back it up. :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

The only thing soft is your weiner schnitzel consuming German jaw.

After one of your classmates busted you up, making you leak in front of all the women in your grade school.

GTFO here you Nazi Snitch.

what the fck is this :roll:



https://media.giphy.com/media/xTiTnHXbRoaZ1B1Mo8/giphy.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

Coach's alt named "Mamba" or something :roll:

[brownmamba00]

Man this is getting retarded

Did this one dude just say Curry and KD's soft frail asses have more impact than prime Kobe:roll:

Millennial Lebron boys:facepalm

[brownmamba00]

The only thing soft is your weiner schnitzel consuming German jaw.

After one of your classmates busted you up, making you leak in front of all the women in your grade school.

GTFO here you Nazi Snitch.


:biggums:

He hates Kobe / D-Rose with a passion. Doesn't like Jordan all that much due to Pippen stan genetic inferiority complex. And stans: D-Rob, Wade, Ray Allen, and Chris Paul.

LMAO @ Smoke117 being "objective".

Not to mention the substance abuse altering his mental state, and what also seems to be a case of frightening anger problems. Amped up due to alcohol, or possibly bipolar?
All that ether tho

[Prometheus]

The only thing soft is your weiner schnitzel consuming German jaw.

After one of your classmates busted you up, making you leak in front of all the women in your grade school.

GTFO here you Nazi Snitch.


:biggums:

He hates Kobe / D-Rose with a passion. Doesn't like Jordan all that much due to Pippen stan genetic inferiority complex. And stans: D-Rob, Wade, Ray Allen, and Chris Paul.

LMAO @ Smoke117 being "objective".

Not to mention the substance abuse altering his mental state, and what also seems to be a case of frightening anger problems. Amped up due to alcohol, or possibly bipolar?

The compliment was just a device through which to make fun of his alcoholism. Calm down fuccboi.

P.S. no one is obejective but he's closer to it than you are with your stats about MJ's package.

[aj1987]

Sure, the foreigners don't know shit about basketball, yet you were the one saying AI didn't dominate the ball much in his Sixers days. Please teach the board some more. :oldlol:
:roll: :roll:

Please find that thread.

[Kenomax]

Here you go:

91 Lakers: SRS=6.76 (3rdf in the league), Def Rtg= 105.0 (5th in the league)

92 Blazers: SRS=6.94 (2nd in the league), Def Rtg=104.2 (3rd in the league)

93 Suns: 6.27= (3rd in the league), Def Rtg= 106.7 (9th in the league)

The 2016 PLAYOFF Warriors were completely different than the regular season team and got exposed as being SOFT and inconsistent. If it wasn't for Kevin Durant/Westbrick dumbas! play the Warriors wouldn't have even made the Finals.

The 91-93 Bulls and Michael Jordan would've kicked the crap out of the 16' Warriors in 4 to 6 games at the most and Michael would've gone crazy against that soft as! defense.

:facepalm

[plowking]

:roll: :roll:

Please find that thread.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12658182&postcount=5



No. Just no. Westbrook can rebound better do to increased size, that's it. Iverson is easily the better player and scorer. He played primarily off the ball too. Unlike Russ.

Oh, if only we knew as much as COACH does here.

[Prometheus]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12658182&postcount=5




Oh, if only we knew as much as COACH does here.

Bro AI was a combo guard... he played on-ball a lot but not even close to as much as Westbrook and Harden are doing.

[aj1987]

Bro AI was a combo guard... he played on-ball a lot but not even close to as much as Westbrook and Harden are doing.
What does that have to do with Swish saying that AI PRIMARILY played off ball?

AI also led the league a shit ton of times in USG%.

[plowking]

Bro AI was a combo guard... he played on-ball a lot but not even close to as much as Westbrook and Harden are doing.

The guy has 7 seasons with usage rates higher than Bron's highest season ever... And people say he has the ball too much. :oldlol:

Westbrook is currently at a 41% usage rate... Probably the highest ever? Not sure. But just because AI was 3% off that at his peak, doesn't mean he wasn't the primary play maker on the team. You're not an off the ball player if one guy dribbles it up, passes to you, and you hold the ball the majority of the time and play one on one. :oldlol:

EDIT: And yeah, you literally supported my statement. He played on ball.... a lot. lol.

[Prometheus]

The guy has 7 seasons with usage rates higher than Bron's highest season ever... And people say he has the ball too much. :oldlol:

Westbrook is currently at a 41% usage rate... Probably the highest ever? Not sure. But just because AI was 3% off that at his peak, doesn't mean he wasn't the primary play maker on the team. You're not an off the ball player if one guy dribbles it up, passes to you, and you hold the ball the majority of the time and play one on one. :oldlol:

EDIT: And yeah, you literally supported my statement. He played on ball.... a lot. lol.

:facepalm

usage and on-ball are not correlated

[aj1987]

:facepalm

usage and on-ball are not correlated
That's pretty much the only stat which can show how ball dominant a player is.

[tpols]

That's pretty much the only stat which can show how ball dominant a player is.

Usage rate only measures how many possessions you use as a fraction of the total offense. It doesnt account for time of possession at all.

[tpols]

The guy has 7 seasons with usage rates higher than Bron's highest season ever... And people say he has the ball too much. :oldlol:

Westbrook is currently at a 41% usage rate... Probably the highest ever? Not sure. But just because AI was 3% off that at his peak, doesn't mean he wasn't the primary play maker on the team. You're not an off the ball player if one guy dribbles it up, passes to you, and you hold the ball the majority of the time and play one on one. :oldlol:

EDIT: And yeah, you literally supported my statement. He played on ball.... a lot. lol.


Usage rate has no correlation at all to ball domination.

Stick to rugby meathead.

[aj1987]

Usage rate only measures how many possessions you use as a fraction of the total offense. It doesnt account for time of possession at all.
As I said, that's pretty much the only stat which shows how ball dominant a player is. What other stat shows a players ball dominance?

[tpols]

As I said, that's pretty much the only stat which shows how ball dominant a player is. What other stat shows a players ball dominance?


If you can dig up on ball time of posession stats that's the only way. Harden and lebron were the only non pgs to be near top on that stat.. Iverson certainly didn't pound the rock as much as westbrook does and he was used for off ball cuts a lot.. Westbrook almost never does that.

[aj1987]

If you can dig up on ball time of posession stats that's the only way. Harden and lebron were the only non pgs to be near top on that stat.. Iverson certainly didn't pound the rock as much as westbrook does and he was used for off ball cuts a lot.. Westbrook almost never does that.
There's no possession time from before '14.

[Young X]

As I said, that's pretty much the only stat which shows how ball dominant a player is. What other stat shows a players ball dominance?Usage rate only tells how many possessions a player used/ended (shot attempt, FT attempts, turnover). You could have the ball in your hands for half the shotclock but if you don't end the possession your usage rate won't be affected.

[aj1987]

Usage rate only tells how many possessions a player used/ended (shot attempt, FT attempts, turnover). You could have the ball in your hands for half the shotclock but if you don't end the possession your usage rate won't be affected.
I know what USG% is and how it's calculated. Once again, there's literally no other stat even close to showing ball dominance for the seasons prior to the '14 season. USG% is the only one close and it pretty much only can be used if you've actually watched those players play.

[plowking]

Usage rate has no correlation at all to ball domination.

Stick to rugby meathead.

The only stat we have available that is close. Are you saying Iverson wasn't holding on to the ball. Now you are just reaching.


usage and on-ball are not correlated


Well, it is the only one we have close. Why exactly are you face palming? Acting as if it has no correlation. :oldlol:

Unless you have stats from 2000 show time on the ball, then kindly STFU. Most of us over 20 here watched Iverson. Most of us know how he played. He was involved in nearly every damn play for the Sixers, and he played in the era known as the 1 on 1 era.

So go ahead and disprove something instead of face palming acting as if you're above it all. :oldlol:


Here is some help... you can't.

[plowking]

I know what USG% is and how it's calculated. Once again, there's literally no other stat even close to showing ball dominance for the seasons prior to the '14 season. USG% is the only one close and it pretty much only can be used if you've actually watched those players play.

Seriously... 5 guys come in trying to educate on the topic by making the same point repeatedly. :oldlol:

Just a coincidence that there seems to be a strong correlation between the guys associated with being ball dominant and usage rate though. But yeah, Iverson wasn't ball dominant and was primarily an off the ball player. :oldlol:

[Young X]

So if you guys know what usage rate is and that it does not represent ball dominance...then why use it?

[plowking]

So if you guys know what usage rate is and that it does not represent ball dominance...then why use it?

Because there is in fact a strong correlation between usage and guys who are said to dominate the ball. I don't have any other stat available, unless you know of one? Time on ball is one, but it sure as hell isn't available for when Iverson played.

All I have is what I know, and that is that Iverson did not play primarily off the ball, and that the usage stats do in fact line up nicely with guys who are said to be a large part of the offense in regards to holding onto the ball for a substantial amount of time in possession.

[Prometheus]

Because there is in fact a strong correlation between usage and guys who are said to dominate the ball. I don't have any other stat available, unless you know of one? Time on ball is one, but it sure as hell isn't available for when Iverson played.

All I have is what I know, and that is that Iverson did not play primarily off the ball, and that the usage stats do in fact line up nicely with guys who are said to be a large part of the offense in regards to holding onto the ball for a substantial amount of time in possession.

Shaquille O'Neal led the league in USG% in '95. Are you gonna try and tell me he was ball-dominant? It's a stat that measures turnovers, fga, and fta. It has NOTHING to do with ball-dominance. Not "well we don't have time-of-possession for anything before 2014 so it's the next best-" no. No correlation.

As far as Iverson, I don't think anyone here is confused... he was more ball-dominant than wing scorers but less than point guards... he set up the offense a good deal but also played off-ball a lot... pretty sure we can all agree about it.

[aj1987]

As far as Iverson, I don't think anyone here is confused... he was more ball-dominant than wing scorers but less than point guards... he set up the offense a good deal but also played off-ball a lot... pretty sure we can all agree about it.
He never played PRIMARILY off-ball that was pretty much what the whole discussion was about. Dude was a ball hog and dominated the rock a helluva lot. Come on, dude. You really can't refute that if you've seen him play.

[Prometheus]

He never played PRIMARILY off-ball that was pretty much what the whole discussion was about. Dude was a ball hog and dominated the rock a helluva lot. Come on, dude. You really can't refute that if you've seen him play.

I'm not refuting that, and wouldn't. He dominated the ball more than anyone other than point guards... but still less than point guards. He's like LeBron in that way. But IIRC, coach was relating him to Westbrook... Iverson played off-ball WAY more than Westbrook. So... anything else?

[tmacattack33]

You're entire argument is based on the box-score, but we already know that prime Bryant was having impact on games that went well beyond the box-score, and his impact numbers +/- numbers back this up.

For example, in 2008 his box-score numbers paled in comparison to CP3 and LeBron, yet he was the consensus best player in the game and the impact numbers back this up.

In 08 Bryant was very widely regarded as the best player in the game despite the measly 24 PER and "advanced stats" that pale in comparison to LBJ/CP3, and yet he put up better offensive +/- than anybody in game outside of Nash (who played a ton less minutes) and in fact had the best minute-adjusted numbers in the entire league along with KG.

Kobe (24 PER): +6.29
LBJ (30 PER): +5.07
CP3 (30 PER): +3.41

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AACIF1UxAphVjODbTtO57_mia/2008.txt?dl=0

I mean, they're not even close despite the gap in the box-score, which just goes to show you how amazing Bryant was and how ridiculous it is to put so much stock in the box-score. And Bryant was doing his thing on a far stronger team and much better offense to boot.

So...you discredit stats.

And then you use a stat to prove that 2008 Bryant was better than 2008 Lebron and CP3?

:facepalm


And no, Kobe was not the "consensus" best player in 2008. Many would give it to Lebron or CP3. Which means its not a consensus.

[Da_Realist]

People need to chill on the whole "modern basketball is like an 80's renascence" BS! Teams are still averaging only 102ppg, that's not even early to mid 90's numbers, let alone the 110+ppg of the 1980's!

The modern game has lost PLENTY of skills like post game, TRUE FAST BREAK EXECUTION, outlet passing, post entry passing, physical perimeter defense, passing out of double teams in the post ETC... All skills that have fallen by the waist side since the early 2000's and have recently been exaggeratedly replaced with the 3 point fixation of the last 6 years.

The "modern fast break" which basically means the teams SHOOT FIRST PG coming down as fast as he can just to hoist up a 3 pointer which even with all of the hoopla is still being shot at a mid 30% clip league wide!!! Compare that with the 80's fast break which routinely ended with a layup or a dunk which is shot in the 90% range not to mention the increased possibility to get fouled in the process. That's another little known aspect in today's NBA, that even with the increased pace of the modern game (when compared to the mid 90's) the FTA per game have decreased by 6 attempts (23 per game since 2010) when compared to the 80s average of 29FTA per game!!!

In the 80's and early 90's the mentality was to ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK as close to the rim and as fast as possible in both the half court and the fast break that's why offenses were able to draw more fouls on the defenses and alter their game plans in a more impactful way! Like Phil Jackson has said in the last few years, fundamentals in the modern game have GONE DOWN THE CRAPPER with classically dominant low post big men and past first PG's quarterback types (two players VITAL to play the 80's style of ball) have been in extinction since the mid 90's thus making the game more complicated for the modern offenses to become as fluid, creative, quick hitting and efficient as they were in the past.

The rule changes of the mid 2000's were a REACTION to the shift that was happening since the mid 90's after the Jordan phenomenon when teams built their offenses around the Bulls paradigm putting perimeter players at the center of the their attacks and after Jordan retired it got exposed as being HORRIBLE LOOKING BASKETBALL!!! Offenses built around players like Iverson, Carter, Marbury, Francis, Baron, McGrady, Allen, Pierce, Redd just to name a few were becoming the norm and the NBA had to do something about it specially with Shaq and Duncan being the last true dominant big man in the horizon.

Enter the ARTIFITIAL SPACING created with the elimination of the hand check and the defensive 3 seconds!!! The NBA basically saying with these new rules "If this is the sh!t offenses the league is intent on running with these dumb as rocks one and done raw athletes, lets make it as easier as possible for them to pull it off!!!"

The 3 pointer craze is not EVOLUTION, it is the SALVATION AND NECESSESITY of the modern game!!!. Remove the 3 point line and put the 80's rules in place tomorrow, what would the scoring averages dip down to? low 90's, 80's or even 70's?!?! I'd say around 85 to 90 ppg!

The whole purpose of the 3 point extravaganza is really to cover up THE ABSOLUTE SH!T modern basketball has really become. As long as Steph Curry is making the occasional 30 footer everything is well and good but wait 5 years when EVERY TEAM in the league is shooting 30 to 40 3 pointers a game, ignoring virtually EVERY other offensive skill set and talk to me about EVOLUTION THEN!!!

In closing, Kobe was a KILLER and a winner!!! He was the TRUE ALPHA DOG on those 2009 and 2010 title teams. LeBron would be his only rival for the top position, that's it. Durant, Westbrick, Harden, AD, Cousing, DeRozen for now are just STAT STUFFING CAREER LOOSERS!!!

Get the hell out of here with "10 game samples"LOL. Prove it to me in MULTIPLE SEASONS while winning titles as the team's MAIN PLAYER, then come talk to me!

ABSOLUTELY :applause:

[stalkerforlife]

Obviously the best in the world, just as he was then.