This season will be the craziest mvp race since 1990.

[AussieSteve]

That year the top 10 were

1st: Magic Johnson(63-19): 27 First Place Votes - 22.3 ppg - 6.6 rpg - 11.5 apg - 1.7 spg - 0.4 bpg
2nd: Charles Barkley(53-29): 38 FPV - 25.2 ppg - 11.5 rpg - 3.9 apg - 1.9 spg - 0.6 bpg
3rd: Michael Jordan(55-27): 21 FPV - 33.6 ppg - 6.9 rpg - 6.3 apg - 2.8 spg - 0.7 bpg
4th: Karl Malone(55-27): 2 FPV - 31.0 ppg - 11.1 rpg - 2.8 apg - 1.5 spg - 0.6 bpg
5th: Patrick Ewing(45-37): 1 FPV - 26.6 ppg - 10.9 rpg - 2.2 apg - 1.0 spg - 4.0 bpg
6th: David Robinson(56-26): 2 FPV - 24.3 ppg - 12.0 rpg - 2.0 apg - 1.7 spg - 3.9 bpg
7th: Hakeem Olajuwon(41-41): 1 FPV - 24.3 ppg - 14.0 rpg 2.9 apg - 2.1 spg - 4.6 bpg
8th: Tom Chambers(54-28): 27.2 ppg - 7.0 rpg - 2.3 apg - 1.1 spg - 0.6 bpg
9th: John Stockton(55-27): 17.2 ppg - 2.6 rpg - 14.5 apg - 2.7 spg - 0.2 bpg
10th: Larry Bird(52-30): 24.3 ppg - 9.5 rpg - 7.5 apg - 1.4 spg - 0.8 bpg

John Stockton set the all-time record for assists per game (which still stands) with 55 wins and finished 9th, while Larry Bird finished 10th on averages of 24.3/9.5/7.5 with 52 wins!! Has anyone ever had a season that good and finished that low?

Barkley had by far the most first place votes and was the rightful winner, but he finished 2nd due to a handful of biased voters who didn't like him and wanted Magic to win, so they left Chuck out of their top 5 completely.

This year there seem to be just as many contenders, and we are likely to have a controversial or disputed outcome, but people who think that we are in some kind of GOAT era of superstars need to look at this list and think again.

[AussieSteve]

For the record, my tip for the top 5 is

1. Lebron
2. Kawhi
3. CP3
4. Harden
5. Westbrook

I think I jumped the gun on Westbrook after the first few games. It seems clear now that OKC won't get enough wins for him to be a serious threat. I think whoever gets the most wins out of LBJ and Kawhi will win... and I think that might be LBJ.

[Prometheus]

The fact that they're withholding the award until after the playoffs changes everything.

[fragokota]

It's been CP3 so far.

[hold this L]

So do the votes end before the playoffs or will people vote until the playoffs are done? Because if votes are allowed during playoffs, you know that will play a massive role in how the votes will go this time around.

[Dray n Klay]

So do the votes end before the playoffs or will people vote until the playoffs are done? Because if votes are allowed during playoffs, you know that will play a massive role in how the votes will go this time around.


Are you sad that Curry won't win it?

[bdreason]

My guess is that votes will still have to be cast before the playoffs start. They're just gonna wait until the entire season is finished to announce the award, instead of having an awkward ceremony in the middle of the playoffs.

[Milbuck]

It's Chris Paul's year.

[AussieSteve]

It's been CP3 so far.

Agreed. If LAC can get to the #1 seed in the west, it could finally be his year. He'd need quite a few more wins than Kawhi though. It's hard to argue that he's the better player of the two.

[AussieSteve]

I also think that there is an air of expectancy that this season is going to be something special, more so than at the start of most seasons. I haven't really felt it since I was a kid. It kind of reminds me of that pre-1990 period when MJ, Magic, Bird, Barkley and co. were taking the game to new heights.

[NBAGOAT]

CP3's been the best in the league so far but Blake being a top 10 guy himself could hurt as the year goes on. Also OP, you're definitely being brave knowing this forum arguing against Jordan for 90.

[AussieSteve]

CP3's been the best in the league so far but Blake being a top 10 guy himself could hurt as the year goes on. Also OP, you're definitely being brave knowing this forum arguing against Jordan for 90.

No doubt Jordan was the best player in the league, but I think there is/was some kind of consensus that Barkley should have got the nod for what he achieved with team of duds. And the fact remains... he had the most first place votes by quite a margin and its pretty well documented that he was intentionally snubbed by a number of voters.

It is true that MJ was also hard done by that year. I recall that there were also some LA voters who left him off their ballot to ensure that Magic won.

[Young X]

I'm glad people are recognizing CP3. The idiots in the media just completely ignore him. Nobody has been playing better basketball than him so far. It's a looong season though.

And like I've always said, the 1990 season is probably the most talented the league has ever been. Jordan had the best offensive year ever probably on a 55 win, 2nd seeded team and came in 3rd. Unbelievable.

[NBAGOAT]

No doubt Jordan was the best player in the league, but I think there is/was some kind of consensus that Barkley should have got the nod for what he achieved with team of duds. And the fact remains... he had the most first place votes by quite a margin and its pretty well documented that he was intentionally snubbed by a number of voters.

It is true that MJ was also hard done by that year. I recall that there were also some LA voters who left him off their ballot to ensure that Magic won.

That is one thing better about the game right now. The guys who vote for MVP aren't as extreme with their favoritism or petty. There's no way Curry would've gone unanimous in 16 with those typesof voters even though he deserved it and I think only one guy voted against Lebron in 13.

[Jacks3]

It's a joke Jordan didn't win the MVP in 1990. 34/7/6/3 with elite efficiency AND defense? Absolutely insane. I don't see how Barkley has any case given the huge gap on defense...I mean, that seriously might have been Jordan's peak.

[AussieSteve]

It's a joke Jordan didn't win the MVP in 1990. 34/7/6/3 with elite efficiency AND defense? Absolutely insane. I don't see how Barkley has any case given the huge gap on defense...I mean, that seriously might have been Jordan's peak.

I think it was Barkley's peak also. It was probably the closest he came to playing what you'd call 'good' defense consistently, and he had the best ORtg in the league. His Net Rtg (ORtg - DRtg) was +23, which is pretty special for a guy playing that many minutes as the #1 option. Both his ORtg and DRtg were better than MJ that season. But the main thing was that Barkley got Philly to 53 wins, with almost no help.

But yeah, MJ would obviously have been a deserving winner and both Barkley and MJ were more deserving than Magic.

[ClipperRevival]

It's a joke Jordan didn't win the MVP in 1990. 34/7/6/3 with elite efficiency AND defense? Absolutely insane. I don't see how Barkley has any case given the huge gap on defense...I mean, that seriously might have been Jordan's peak.

But that was your average, prime MJ season. That's why he is the GOAT. What would be an eye popping, absolute peak year for any other great is just another season for MJ.

[Lebronxrings]

its been

Lebron
Harden
Kawhi
derozan
griffin
curry/durant
curry/durant
westbrook

[Bosnian Sajo]

Are you guys being serious? CP3?


When Lebron, Kawhi, Harden, and Curry are in the league, posting huge numbers? Among others?



Not to take anything away from Paul being a great player, but he's not the most valuable..

[ShawkFactory]

Are you guys being serious? CP3?


When Lebron, Kawhi, Harden, and Curry are in the league, posting huge numbers? Among others?



Not to take anything away from Paul being a great player, but he's not the most valuable..
But he's always been an incredibly valuable player. He just doesn't turn the ball over and he makes plays constantly.

Of course it's early but if the Clips win 65 or so? I'd give it to him.

[NBAGOAT]

But that was your average, prime MJ season. That's why he is the GOAT. What would be an eye popping, absolute peak year for any other great is just another season for MJ.

not exactly. Plenty of people have argued that year as Jordan's peak so it's not just another year even for Jordan(yes ik his other prime seasons aren't that far off).

[Young X]

Are you guys being serious? CP3?


When Lebron, Kawhi, Harden, and Curry are in the league, posting huge numbers? Among others?



Not to take anything away from Paul being a great player, but he's not the most valuable..Terrible post but I should expect nothing else from this site.

CP3 has been playing the best basketball of his career. You talk about numbers? He's statistically been the best player in the league up to this point. And his team looks like the best in the league right now.

[ClipperRevival]

not exactly. Plenty of people have argued that year as Jordan's peak so it's not just another year even for Jordan(yes ik his other prime seasons aren't that far off).

You can honestly make cases for almost any MJ season from 1987 - 1992. Comes down to preference like scoring, filling up the stat sheets or GOAT efficiency.

[Proctor]

CP3 has little chance of winning it no matter how great of a PG he is and how important he is to the Clippers. The media focuses too heavily on gaudy numbers, and even if they didn't, CP3 has and will continue to be overshadowed.

Clippers would have to win 65 games IMO for that to even be possible.

[JebronLames]

Rooting for CP3 if LeDagger doesn't get it. He really deserves one after getting ROBBED in 2008

[AussieSteve]

The top 3 candidates (lebron, cp3, harden) all came back to the field slightly last night with losses and below par personal performances. I know it's only early, but I think this will be a hard award to pick for the entire season.

[Kawhi]

The top 3 candidates (lebron, cp3, harden) all came back to the field slightly last night with losses and below par personal performances. I know it's only early, but I think this will be a hard award to pick for the entire season.
James didn't even play and the loss only fuels his MVP bid.

[Sarcastic]

Just like 1990 it'll come down to the player on the team with the best record. And just like 1990 all the players in the top 4 or 5 will have a legitimate claim.

This is also a great example of why not all MVP awards should be ranked evenly, and context should be taken into account. For example the MVP winner this year should be ranked ahead of Derrick Rose and his award, or some of the other weaker years.

[AirBonner]

People sleeping on Isaiah Thomas in here

[Smoke117]

CP3 has no chance of getting it regardless of what the Clippers do...Blake Griffin is the media darling and it's a media award. Those idiots would probably give it to him over Paul if they won 65+ games even though the team clearly rises and falls with CP3.

[AussieSteve]

Just like 1990 it'll come down to the player on the team with the best record. And just like 1990 all the players in the top 4 or 5 will have a legitimate claim.

This is also a great example of why not all MVP awards should be ranked evenly, and context should be taken into account. For example the MVP winner this year should be ranked ahead of Derrick Rose and his award, or some of the other weaker years.

True, but 1990 was kind of unusual in that Barkley got the most first place votes for doing a lot with a dud team, even though Magic, Jordan, Malone, Robinson all had more wins and arguably better raw stats.

And I agree with your second point too. As another example, in a Malone v Barkley debate, people will sometimes point to Malone's two MVPs vs Barkley's one. But when you look at the competition and voting in 1990, when Barkley had the most first place votes over basically the Dream Team in their prime, and 1993, when Chuck won in a landslide over Hakeem and Jordan in their primes, and then compare this with Malone's awards, which were both by narrow margins against far inferior competition, and both disputed as being rightfully other players' (Jordan and Mourning/Duncan), you realize that Malone's two MVPs are definitely worth less than Barkley's one.

One of the reasons that I suppose people tend to rate FMVPs higher than RS MVPs.

[Smoke117]

Honestly I don't even think Chuck should have been top 3. It's an insult to Robinson that he was 6th...maybe a rookie thing? Because he clearly should be in the top 3 with Magic and Jordan. The spurs won 35 more games and he was instantly a top 5 player and the 2nd best defensive player in the league...he probably should have actually won MVP. When you instantly come into the league and the team you are on has a 35 game turn around...I'd say that makes you pretty ****ing valuable. The fact that He actually has the 2nd most wins out of these guys too and he's 6th? Just wrong.

Everyone is going to say "you're a Drob stan blah blah"...but am I wrong? By the definition of Most Valuable Player...he'd seem to be, clearly, the most valuable player in the league that season.

[AussieSteve]

Honestly I don't even think Chuck should have been top 3. It's an insult to Robinson that he was 6th...maybe a rookie thing? Because he clearly should be in the top 3 with Magic and Jordan. The spurs won 35 more games and he was instantly a top 5 player and the 2nd best defensive player in the league...he probably should have actually won MVP. When you instantly come into the league and the team you are on has a 35 game turn around...I'd say that make so pretty ****ing valuable. The fact that He actually has the 2nd most wins out of these guys too and he's 6th? Just pathetic.

Everyone is going to say "you're a Drob stan blah blah"...but am I wrong? By the definition of Most Valuable Player...he'd seem to be, clearly, the most valuable player in the league that season.

I don't think you're wrong necessarily, but you can't forget that the Spurs made a few changes that year apart from drafting Robinson. They picked up Terry Cummings, who was an all-star the previous year and gave them 22ppg and 8rpg, and Mo Cheeks (who they then traded for Rod Strickland mid season). So you probably can't attribute the entire 35 game turnaround to Robinson.

Ewing had better stats and got the Knicks to the playoffs with and an inferior roster and Oakley missing 21 games, so you can't argue him being 5th. Malone averaged 31ppg, Jordan was Jordan, Barkley literally carried a team of nobodies to the 2nd seed in the east and Magic had 7 more wins than any other team. I think 6th was fair. It was just a ridiculous year for superstars. I mean Hakeem finished 7th on 24.3 ppg while leading the league in rebounds and blocks! And Bird finished 10th with 24.3ppg/9.5rpg/7.5apg. Crazy.

[Smoke117]

I don't think you're wrong necessarily, but you can't forget that the Spurs made a few changes that year apart from drafting Robinson. They picked up Terry Cummings, who was an all-star the previous year and gave them 22ppg and 8rpg, and Mo Cheeks (who they then traded for Rod Strickland mid season). So you probably can't attribute the entire 35 game turnaround to Robinson.

Ewing had better stats and got the Knicks to the playoffs with and an inferior roster and Oakley missing 21 games, so you can't argue him being 5th. Malone averaged 31ppg, Jordan was Jordan, Barkley literally carried a team of nobodies to the 2nd seed in the east and Magic had 7 more wins than any other team. I think 6th was fair. It was just a ridiculous year for superstars. I mean Hakeem finished 7th on 24.3 ppg while leading the league in rebounds and blocks! And Bird finished 10th with 24.3ppg/9.5rpg/7.5apg. Crazy.

I don't think Barkley or Malone's offensive production is enough to offset the sheer dominance of Robinson on the defensive end...especially when he was also a great offensive player himself too. The Spurs went from 13th to 3rd in defense and Terry Cummings nor Cheeks/Strickland made that happen.

[AussieSteve]

I don't think Barkley or Malone's offensive production is enough to offset the sheer dominance of Robinson on the defensive end...especially when he was also a great offensive player himself too. The Spurs went from 13th to 3rd in defense and Terry Cummings nor Cheeks/Strickland made that happen.

In the first half of the 90s I thought that Robinson was the best centre in the league. Better than Hakeem and better than Shaq. Looking back now I'd say that Hakeem probably had the edge, but DRob is definitely one of the most underated players of all time imo. Peak for peak he's up there with the GOAT centers. His lack of longevity and poor playoff record hurts his legacy tho.

What an era for centres the early 90s was!!

[antonAC]

I don't think Barkley or Malone's offensive production is enough to offset the sheer dominance of Robinson on the defensive end...especially when he was also a great offensive player himself too. The Spurs went from 13th to 3rd in defense and Terry Cummings nor Cheeks/Strickland made that happen.

rightly or wrongly, lets be honest, DPOY was created because MVP is essentially Offensive Player of the Year*.


*ok, not quite, but offense counts for way more than defense. Kawhi is being touted by everyone but imo he only wins if he puts up over 25ppg

[Ass Dan]

Harden will produce all year and win the MVP

[Atlantis]

CP3's been the best in the league so far but Blake being a top 10 guy himself could hurt as the year goes on. Also OP, you're definitely being brave knowing this forum arguing against Jordan for 90.

How has CP3 been the best? He's averaging 18.3/8.3. Has anyone won an MVP with those numbers as a point guard?

[AussieSteve]

How has CP3 been the best? He's averaging 18.3/8.3. Has anyone won an MVP with those numbers as a point guard?

In NBAGOATs defense, cp3 was averaging 19.3/8.5 when he posted that, and LAC were 10-1. But its the things that don't show up on a box score that make him great.

I think you're right though. He'd need to get his numbers to at least 20/10 and LAC to 65+ wins for him to have a shot. There's just too many guys in the mix this season who are going to put up big numbers on winning teams.

[NBAGOAT]

How has CP3 been the best? He's averaging 18.3/8.3. Has anyone won an MVP with those numbers as a point guard?

it's mainly the advanced box score metrics and that his defensive impact for now are insane because the Clippers are the best defense in the league and an all time great one too. 31.5 PER, .393 ws/48, and 14.9 bpm are absolutely mvp level metrics. They beat Jordan's best even(not sustainable ofc). I'm sure stuff like his +/- is insanely high too.

[SwayDizzle]

have to go with DLo here

[hold this L]

A lot of options right now won't be actual top 2-3 candidates by the end of the season. Harden, Westbrook, FT Derozan, Blake. Davis fell off the map last week for example.

I will say it depends what happens of course, but I think Lebron will be favorite for it this year. Curry, KD, and Kawhi will be up there for discussion, even though Kawhi's shooting has fallen off a cliff the last 5 games. He needs to average at the very least 25 IMO for him to be in consideration. CP3 will rely on his team for his amazing record to keep up the GOAT level defense they have in display. can they keep it up? KD and Curry, can they also keep up their stupid play atm? Both have highest TS% in their history atm, and this is from two top 10 scorers in the game's history. Sounds implausible that both can keep it up all year, very possibly both drop off as well.

In terms of a season where there's so many options early on, I can't remember the last time this happened.

[ClipperRevival]

Honestly I don't even think Chuck should have been top 3. It's an insult to Robinson that he was 6th...maybe a rookie thing? Because he clearly should be in the top 3 with Magic and Jordan. The spurs won 35 more games and he was instantly a top 5 player and the 2nd best defensive player in the league...he probably should have actually won MVP. When you instantly come into the league and the team you are on has a 35 game turn around...I'd say that makes you pretty ****ing valuable. The fact that He actually has the 2nd most wins out of these guys too and he's 6th? Just wrong.

Everyone is going to say "you're a Drob stan blah blah"...but am I wrong? By the definition of Most Valuable Player...he'd seem to be, clearly, the most valuable player in the league that season.

You're love of DRob is blinding you of the truth. Although DRob was clearly the main reason for the turnaround, the Spurs also added Cummings, Cheeks, Strickland and rookie Sean Elliott in addition to DRob. So it was a completely different team.

And it is widely accepted that Barkley probably deserved it in 1990. Not even top 3? Come on.

[Ben Simons]

CP3 will win MVP, but then get bounced in the 2nd round anyway.

[antonAC]

A lot of options right now won't be actual top 2-3 candidates by the end of the season. Harden, Westbrook, FT Derozan, Blake. Davis fell off the map last week for example.

I will say it depends what happens of course, but I think Lebron will be favorite for it this year. Curry, KD, and Kawhi will be up there for discussion, even though Kawhi's shooting has fallen off a cliff the last 5 games. He needs to average at the very least 25 IMO for him to be in consideration. CP3 will rely on his team for his amazing record to keep up the GOAT level defense they have in display. can they keep it up? KD and Curry, can they also keep up their stupid play atm? Both have highest TS% in their history atm, and this is from two top 10 scorers in the game's history. Sounds implausible that both can keep it up all year, very possibly both drop off as well.

In terms of a season where there's so many options early on, I can't remember the last time this happened.


couldn't agree more with this, and it also highlights that for each player there are set of criteria they probably have to meet (given the types of players they are and what they could possibly do) to be in with a shout.

CP3 will need stellar assist numbers and LAC to win the conference by a distance, he's just not a human highlight real but if LAC are seen as by far the best team in the league come april he'll be credited with directing them.

I think Curry needs to break his 3-point record again and have it agreed upon in the media he's still definitely the alpha of the team to have a chance.

Durant needs to put up a 30+ ppg and look like the go to guy if Curry is playing bad, particularly in big games.

Westbrook has to take OKC to the play-offs, it's simply not an option, a triple double average is probably necessary if they finish any lower than 4th.

Lebron needs clutch game-winners and utterly dominating displays to get headlines, he is the best player in the league, but coasting through the season doing just enough to win won't be enough, needs some momments similar to Curry's half court game winner v OKC.

[T_L_P]

Definitely an interesting race.

IMO it's Paul right now, but like you said arguments can be made for lots of people and it will likely stay that way.

[K Xerxes]

Paul ain't winning shit averaging 18-8, even if LAC tops the standing. Not saying he wouldn't deserve it, but they're not giving it to a statline like that.

[ArbitraryWater]

Paul ain't winning shit averaging 18-8, even if LAC tops the standing. Not saying he wouldn't deserve it, but they're not giving it to a statline like that.

This. He shouldnt win it like that either, IMO.

Its between Bron/Harden for now, Kawhi might make a push, if SAS's record goes up and is in debate for #1 record.

[pedromarinho]

Curry will slowly start to enter in the discussion.

[K Xerxes]

This. He shouldnt win it like that either, IMO.

Its between Bron/Harden for now, Kawhi might make a push, if SAS's record goes up and is in debate for #1 record.

Harden's in the same boat as Westbrook - great stats but probably won't win enough games. If anything Westbrook's statline is more impressive and he has the narrative on his side, so I don't see Harden winning it.

If Spurs get top 2 seed with Kawhi averaging 25ppg, I think he wins it. Otherwise it looks like Bron's to lose since Cleveland are running away with the east, and Curry and Durant will be splitting votes.

Actually given this is supposed to be a thrilling MVP race, it'll be ironic if Bron ends up winning it when he's going to put up his lowest scoring since he was a rookie, sits out b2b games and obviously doesn't give a shit about the regular season.

[3ball]

Cleveland is running away with the east...

when Bron's going to put up his lowest scoring since he was a rookie, sits out b2b games and obviously doesn't give a shit about the regular season.


^^^^ This indicates that his team must be stacked to the brim, as would be expected from a VETERAN TEAM-HOPPER

(in a conference that has sustained it's historic weakness for 5-10 years, in part due to Lebron's team-hopping and collusion).

[Smoke117]

^^^^ This indicates that his team must be stacked to the brim, as would be expected from a VETERAN TEAM-HOPPER.

That's why the Cavs are 2-14 without Lebron in the lineup and just lost to the Pacers with him sitting out? Keen logic there, homeboy.

[Hey Yo]

The more times Lue rests LeBron (and if they go onto to lose) it only further helps James' MVP push.

[ArbitraryWater]

Harden's in the same boat as Westbrook - great stats but probably won't win enough games. If anything Westbrook's statline is more impressive and he has the narrative on his side, so I don't see Harden winning it.

If Spurs get top 2 seed with Kawhi averaging 25ppg, I think he wins it. Otherwise it looks like Bron's to lose since Cleveland are running away with the east, and Curry and Durant will be splitting votes.

Actually given this is supposed to be a thrilling MVP race, it'll be ironic if Bron ends up winning it when he's going to put up his lowest scoring since he was a rookie, sits out b2b games and obviously doesn't give a shit about the regular season.

I dont think so.. I think the Rockets will win 5+ more games than OKC, and he'll be in the convo by the end.

Ironic indeed (last paragraph)!

[3ball]

That's why the Cavs are 2-14 without Lebron in the lineup and just lost to the Pacers with him sitting out? Keen logic there, homeboy.
dumb argument.. everyone knows that even though Lebron's ball-dominance from the forward position is entirely unique, it reduces the roles, playmaking and stats of teammates.

when he's out for short periods of time, teammates must snap out of twilight zone "Lebron-world" and step up from their reduced roles far more than teammates who play alongside an OFF-ball superstar, where the change/increase in playmaking duties is far less when the star is out.. The change in chemistry is so massive when Lebron is out, because he achieves his stats by dominating all the action and stepping on teammates.

again, Lebron's ball-dominant style is the reason his team's assist totals rank OUTSIDE of the top 5, 10 and even 15 virtually every year - his style results in weaker teamwork and a lesser brand of basketball that usually doesn't succeed at the highest level (3/7).

[AussieSteve]

dumb argument.. everyone knows that even though Lebron's ball-dominance from the forward position is entirely unique, it reduces the roles, playmaking and stats of teammates.

when he's out for short periods of time, teammates must snap out of twilight zone "Lebron-world" and step up from their reduced roles far more than teammates who play alongside an OFF-ball superstar, where the change/increase in playmaking duties is far less when the star is out.. The change in chemistry is so massive when Lebron is out, because he achieves his stats by dominating all the action and stepping on teammates.

again, Lebron's ball-dominant style is the reason his team's assist totals rank OUTSIDE of the top 5, 10 and even 15 virtually every year - his style results in weaker teamwork and a lesser brand of basketball that rarely succeeds at the highest level (3/7).

So you're saying that if Lebron adopted a more off-ball style, it would somehow be more conducive to team success, and he'd have a better finals record? Pethaps he and Delly and co. would have beat the warriors in 15?

Can u give me an example of another player that you believe would have won with that supporting cast against that warrior team?

[ShawkFactory]

dumb argument.. everyone knows that even though Lebron's ball-dominance from the forward position is entirely unique, it reduces the roles, playmaking and stats of teammates.

when he's out for short periods of time, teammates must snap out of twilight zone "Lebron-world" and step up from their reduced roles far more than teammates who play alongside an OFF-ball superstar, where the change/increase in playmaking duties is far less when the star is out.. The change in chemistry is so massive when Lebron is out, because he achieves his stats by dominating all the action and stepping on teammates.

again, Lebron's ball-dominant style is the reason his team's assist totals rank OUTSIDE of the top 5, 10 and even 15 virtually every year - his style results in weaker teamwork and a lesser brand of basketball that usually doesn't succeed at the highest level (3/7).
If feel like your entire shtick worked before the playoffs last year.

Now it just seems out-dated. Watch him now.

[Smoke117]

dumb argument.. everyone knows that even though Lebron's ball-dominance from the forward position is entirely unique, it reduces the roles, playmaking and stats of teammates.

when he's out for short periods of time, teammates must snap out of twilight zone "Lebron-world" and step up from their reduced roles far more than teammates who play alongside an OFF-ball superstar, where the change/increase in playmaking duties is far less when the star is out.. The change in chemistry is so massive when Lebron is out, because he achieves his stats by dominating all the action and stepping on teammates.

again, Lebron's ball-dominant style is the reason his team's assist totals rank OUTSIDE of the top 5, 10 and even 15 virtually every year - his style results in weaker teamwork and a lesser brand of basketball that usually doesn't succeed at the highest level (3/7).

This argument you are trying to make is just embarrassing...I missed this, thanks. Btw, why haven't you made any new threads for us to shit on?

[Round Mound]

Stolen Sir Charles MVP :facepalm

[T_L_P]

This. He shouldnt win it like that either, IMO.

Its between Bron/Harden for now, Kawhi might make a push, if SAS's record goes up and is in debate for #1 record.

I agree that he wouldn't get the votes this way, but what do counting stats have to do with impact?

Paul is clearly playing better than LeBron is right now as far as I am concerned. Just because it's on 18 PPG and 8 APG doesn't change that.

[AussieSteve]

I'm really warming on Harden... 31 and 10 tonight with zero turnovers, after that big triple double the other night. And the Rockets are beating decent teams. If they get to ~55 wins and he keeps this going, LBJ and Kawhi might not have the numbers to beat him, even if they have ~65 wins. Especially if lebron sits out 10 games, which it looks like he might.