LeBron is the most valuable playoff performer of all time

[AirBonner]

[QUOTE]James has also moved past Jordan in postseason value over replacement, a box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions that a player contributed above a replacement-level player. In other words, James, despite not winning as many championships as Jordan, is the most valuable playoff player of all time. It

[BigKAT]

Watching James is great and all,
But I still wish I was around to watch Magic and Bird do battle more then anything.

(Though the video quality and presentation wasn't as good, I suppose, especially if you weren't living in the states.)

Anyhow, kudos to James.

[KiiiiNG]

On ISH we've been saying LeBron > Jordan for a while now...

But this just solidifies our stance even more. Thanks OP. :cheers:

[AirBonner]

On ISH we've been saying LeBron > Jordan for a while now...

But this just solidifies our stance even more. Thanks OP. :cheers:
No problem! :pimp:

[pedromarinho]

Dirk thinks this is funny.

[warriorfan]

LeBron is a very valuable playoff performer

Jason Terry wouldn't have a ring without him

[JT123]

WHAT A TIME! :banana:

[egokiller]

LeBron is a very valuable playoff performer

Jason Terry wouldn't have a ring without him

The playboy strikes again.

Bonner still making posts about a guy that got styled on by Jason Terry. :pimp:

[AirBonner]

The playboy strikes again.

Bonner still making posts about a guy that got styled on by Jason Terry. :pimp:
and you were so embarrassed after Lebron's goat finals performance this year that you are to ashamed to post on your main account :eek:

[egokiller]

and you were so embarrassed after Lebron's goat finals performance this year that you are to ashamed to post on your main account :eek:

If you are referring to that straight_ballin guy, I heard that he said if Cavs ever won the chip after a 50 year drought that there would be no point in posting on here. Same with that CavsFTW guy. Now why are you making posts about players that got styled on by Jason Terry of all people?

[AirBonner]

If you are referring to that straight_ballin guy, I heard that he said if Cavs ever won the chip after a 50 year drought that there would be no point in posting on here. Same with that CavsFTW guy. Now why are you making posts about players that got styled on by Jason Terry of all people?
so you said you wouldn't post on here again. yet here you are. The broken 40 year old virgin can't help himself :lol

[egokiller]

so you said you wouldn't post on here again. yet here you are. The broken 40 year old virgin can't help himself :lol

Now you are so triggered that it's effecting your reading comprehension. :roll: Playboy has got you under his thumb baby boy.

:hammertime: :hammertime:

[Hey Yo]

If you are referring to that straight_ballin guy, I heard that he said if Cavs ever won the chip after a 50 year drought that there would be no point in posting on here. Same with that CavsFTW guy. Now why are you making posts about players that got styled on by Jason Terry of all people?
Nobody even brought up that account of yours.

It's obvious you made that "pro LeBron" account just a few months before he made his decision......:oldlol:

then you tried to use it as an anti-LeBron account, to agree with your Straight_Bitch account posts



you got some series mental issues, chico.

[egokiller]

Nobody even brought up that account of yours.

It's obvious you made that "pro LeBron" account just a few months before he made his decision......:oldlol:

then you tried to use it as an anti-LeBron account, to agree with your Straight_Bitch account posts



you got some series mental issues, chico.

"account of mine" :roll:
Are you really that mind ****ed?

[warriorfan]

https://s22.postimg.org/fwqa57uz5/anxiety_attacks_1.jpg

:roll:

[SexSymbol]

and you were so embarrassed after Lebron's goat finals performance this year that you are to ashamed to post on your main account :eek:
:facepalm

[Smoke117]

and you were so embarrassed after Lebron's goat finals performance this year that you are to ashamed to post on your main account :eek:

I'm pretty sure this is his only account...nobody would post those god-awful and embarrassing movie reviews on their main account if they didn't have to. :lol

[3ball]

What a time to be a fan of basketball. Being able to witness the GOAT in real time is truly a blessing :bowdown:



Playoff stats required for Jordan's rings vs. Lebron's rings



PER GAME



Jordan 91, 92, 93 Playoffs:. 33.7 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 49.7 fg.. 57.2 ts.. 120 ortg.. 29.5 PER
Lebron 12, 13, 16 Playoffs:. 27.2 ppg.. 9.2 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 3.4 tov.. 51.0 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 117 ortg.. 29.2 PER




PER 100 POSSESSIONS



Jordan 91, 92, 93 Playoffs:. 44.5 pts.. Ii8.4 reb.. 8.7 ast.. 3.8 tov.. 49.7 fg.. 57.2 ts.. 120 ortg.. 29.5 PER
Lebron 12, 13, 16 Playoffs:. 36.1 pts.. 10.2 reb.. 8.7 ast.. 4.4 tov.. 51.0 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 117 ortg.. 29.2 PER




Full Playoff Stats for Jordan & Lebron thru 31 Years Old



PER GAME



Jordan:. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 3.3 tov.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




PER 100 POSSESSIONS



Jordan:I 43.9 pts..N 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




FINALS PER GAME:



Jordan Finals:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron Finals:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



:facepalm .. MJ was required to score 25% more for his rings w/ EQUAL assists.



SOURCES:


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html






James has also moved past Jordan in postseason value over replacement (VORP), a box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions that a player contributed above a replacement-level player.

It’s also worth noting that Jordan’s teammate, Scottie Pippen, appears on this all-time great list at No. 5.

-Washington Post


Rankings for Value Over Replacement (VORP) don't equal to all-time rankings because Pippen is 5th in VORP, but he isn't anywhere near a top 5 all-time player.. Just like Horry isn't 12th all-time, and on and on.

Also, VORP has a lot of flaws.

First of all, the replacement player in previous eras isn't equal to the replacement player in today's era - so if the replacement player in previous eras is better than the replacement player in today's era, then the VORP of today's players will be overstated compared to previous eras.. :confusedshrug:

Secondly, VORP doesn't consider how team chemistry helps the stats of role players - for example, Bird and Jordan's teams had elite chemistry, which helped the production of guys like Ainge and Grant, and therefore their VORP.. Otoh, Lebron's teams have often had poor chemistry, which has hurt the production of guys like Bosh and Love, and thus their VORP.. :confusedshrug:

But carry on.. I hate to ruin anyone's fun... :cheers:

[warriorfan]

Playoff stats required for Jordan's rings vs. Lebron's rings



PER GAME



Jordan 91, 92, 93 Playoffs:. 33.7 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 49.7 fg.. 57.2 ts.. 120 ortg.. 29.5 PER
Lebron 12, 13, 16 Playoffs:. 27.2 ppg.. 9.2 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 3.4 tov.. 51.0 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 117 ortg.. 29.2 PER




PER 100 POSSESSIONS



Jordan 91, 92, 93 Playoffs:. 44.5 pts.. Ii8.4 reb.. 8.7 ast.. 3.8 tov.. 49.7 fg.. 57.2 ts.. 120 ortg.. 29.5 PER
Lebron 12, 13, 16 Playoffs:. 36.1 pts.. 10.2 reb.. 8.7 ast.. 4.4 tov.. 51.0 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 117 ortg.. 29.2 PER



Complete Playoff Stats for Jordan & Lebron thru 31 Years Old



PER GAME



Jordan:. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 3.3 tov.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




PER 100 POSSESSIONS



Jordan:I 43.9 pts..N 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




FINALS PER GAME:



Jordan Finals:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron Finals:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



:facepalm .. MJ was required to score 25% more for his rings with EQUAL assists.



SOURCES:


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html




Rankings for Value Over Replacement (VORP) don't equal to all-time rankings because Pippen is 5th in VORP, but he isn't anywhere near a top 5 all-time player.. Just like Horry isn't 12th all-time, and on and on.

Also, VORP has a lot of flaws.

First of all, the replacement player in previous eras isn't equal to the replacement player in today's era - so if the replacement player in previous eras is better than the replacement player in today's era, then the VORP of today's players will be overstated compared to previous eras.. :confusedshrug:

Secondly, VORP doesn't consider how team chemistry helps the stats of role players - for example, Bird and Jordan's teams had elite chemistry, which helped the production of guys like Ainge and Grant.. Otoh, Lebron's teams have often had poor chemistry, which has hurt the production of guys like Bosh and Love.. :confusedshrug:

But carry on.. I hate to ruin anyone's fun... :cheers:

:applause:

[egokiller]

3ball with that hurricane effect.

[feyki]

Dirk thinks this is funny.

What did he say ?

[Smoke117]

I don't think I've read a post where 3ball starts posting stats in a year...lol. I barely read any of his long winded post in general, but those are by far the worst...he just repost the same stats over and over and over and over again.

[AirBonner]

I don't think I've read a post where 3ball starts posting stats in a year...lol. I barely read any of his long winded post in general, but those are by far the worst...he just repost the same stats over and over and over and over again.
Agree. He just ignored my post and posted a bunch of nonsense.

[Psileas]

-Washington Post

What a time to be a fan of basketball. Being able to witness the GOAT in real time is truly a blessing :bowdown:

Yeah, and being able to witness for the first time in your lifetime the idea that Pippen was a top-5 most valuable playoff performer of all time. :rolleyes:

[Asukal]

LeBron is a very valuable playoff performer

Jason Terry wouldn't have a ring without him

Iggy and Kawhi wouldn't have FMVPs without him too. Such a terrific playoffs performer so giving, so generous. LePosse! :applause: :bowdown: :cheers:

[Keno]

it has been well known for a while now that lebron's the goat.

[CuhGetsBucks]

Iggy and Kawhi wouldn't have FMVPs without him too. Such a terrific playoffs performer so giving, so generous. LePosse! :applause: :bowdown: :cheers:
I question if you guys really watch basketball sometimes

[scm5]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but VORP is a cumulative stat kind of like total points scored.

Considering Lebron has played over 1000 more minutes of playoff basketball than Jordan, this is not a surprising stat.

[tmacattack33]

Lebron could very well be the most valuable playoff performer of all time.

In the playoffs, or well actually anytime after the trade deadline, Lebron becomes a little more valuable. Because he can move positions in case of an injury.

This happened to Lebron's teams in 2013 when Bosh went down, and in 2015 when both Irving and Love went down. Lebron switched positions and roles and his team didn't lose a step.

[Prime_Shaq]

Watching James is great and all,
But I still wish I was around to watch Magic and Bird do battle more then anything.

(Though the video quality and presentation wasn't as good, I suppose, especially if you weren't living in the states.)

Anyhow, kudos to James.
Going off my memory as a child here, I don't remember Bird being as ball dominants as LeBron is. While not necessarily a bad thing because Cavs entire offensive engine is built around LeBron, Bird would get his much more in the flow of the Celtics offense.

[Paul George 24]

-Washington Post

What a time to be a fan of basketball. Being able to witness the GOAT in real time is truly a blessing :bowdown:
GOAT IS JORDAN AND FOREVER

[3ball]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but VORP is a cumulative stat kind of like total points scored.

Considering Lebron has played over 1000 more minutes of playoff basketball than Jordan, this is not a surprising stat.


https://m.popkey.co/d05642/VWM51.gif

[ballinhun8]

VORP


Lmao, not even a real stat. Analytics have killed bball discussion.

[jstern]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but VORP is a cumulative stat kind of like total points scored.

Considering Lebron has played over 1000 more minutes of playoff basketball than Jordan, this is not a surprising stat.

Lebron is one of the greatest playoff performers I've ever seen, minus a couple of stinkers. But this thread was just not computing, seeing how clutch and relentless Jordan was. His ability to pull his team apart in the final minutes.

The eye test clearly states that Jordan is the best, being able to perform at will and exactly when needed.

[NBAGOAT]

VORP


Lmao, not even a real stat. Analytics have killed bball discussion.

analytics is a lot more than just using vorp in an argument(and it's not even one of the better stats out there). You can hate on it all you want but there's a reason every team in the league has an analytics department. You want to see what happens when you go by only the gut test, look no further than what byron scott did the last few years.

[3ball]

What a time to be a fan of basketball. Being able to witness the GOAT in real time is truly a blessing :bowdown:



Playoff stats required for Jordan's rings vs. Lebron's rings



PER GAME



Jordan 91, 92, 93 Playoffs:. 33.7 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 49.7 fg.. 57.2 ts.. 120 ortg.. 29.5 PER
Lebron 12, 13, 16 Playoffs:. 27.2 ppg.. 9.2 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 3.4 tov.. 51.0 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 117 ortg.. 29.2 PER




PER 100 POSSESSIONS



Jordan 91, 92, 93 Playoffs:. 44.5 pts.. Ii8.4 reb.. 8.7 ast.. 3.8 tov.. 49.7 fg.. 57.2 ts.. 120 ortg.. 29.5 PER
Lebron 12, 13, 16 Playoffs:. 36.1 pts.. 10.2 reb.. 8.7 ast.. 4.4 tov.. 51.0 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 117 ortg.. 29.2 PER




Full Playoff Stats for Jordan & Lebron thru 31 Years Old



PER GAME



Jordan:. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 3.3 tov.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




PER 100 POSSESSIONS



Jordan:I 43.9 pts..N 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




FINALS PER GAME:



Jordan Finals:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron Finals:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



:facepalm .. MJ was required to score 25% more for his rings w/ EQUAL assists.



SOURCES:


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
.

[3ball]

James has also moved past Jordan in postseason value over replacement (VORP), a box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions that a player contributed above a replacement-level player.

It’s also worth noting that Jordan’s teammate, Scottie Pippen, appears on this all-time great list at No. 5.

-Washington Post


Rankings for Value Over Replacement (VORP) don't equal to all-time rankings because Pippen is 5th in VORP, but he isn't anywhere near a top 5 all-time player.. Just like Horry isn't 12th all-time, and on and on.

Also, VORP has a lot of flaws.

First of all, the replacement player in previous eras isn't equal to the replacement player in today's era - so if the replacement player in previous eras is better than the replacement player in today's era, then the VORP of today's players will be overstated compared to previous eras.. :confusedshrug:

Secondly, VORP doesn't consider how team chemistry helps the stats of role players - for example, Bird and Jordan's teams had elite chemistry, which helped the production of guys like Ainge and Grant, and therefore their VORP.. Otoh, Lebron's teams usually have poor chemistry, which has hurt the production of guys like Bosh and Love, and thus their VORP.. :confusedshrug:

But carry on.. I hate to ruin anyone's fun... :cheers:

[SpaceJam]

Wait Rob Horry is ranked 12th? :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeBron's up there as a postseason performer, and has improved his finals play quite a bit, but to say he's "more valuable" than Jordan AND Kareem? Get real.

Hell, in the playoffs even Magic is still arguably "more valuable". At least when it comes to racking up W's anyway.

[smoovegittar]

Getting more and more difficult reading these "30 and under" posts.

Romper Room. :facepalm

[AirBonner]

LeBron's up there as a postseason performer, and has improved his finals play quite a bit, but to say he's "more valuable" than Jordan AND Kareem? Get real.

Hell, in the playoffs even Magic is still arguably "more valuable". At least when it comes to racking up W's anyway.
To HIS TEAM he is clearly more valuable. Cavs wouldn't even make the playoffs without him :coleman:

[pedromarinho]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60XIzix3PlE

**** all those stats, **** your arguments.

Just watch this shit.

Jordan and another basketball player in the same sentence is DISRESPECTFUL!

[Hey Yo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but VORP is a cumulative stat kind of like total points scored.

Considering Lebron has played over 1000 more minutes of playoff basketball than Jordan, this is not a surprising stat.
That was MJ's choice, though.

He chose to miss 147 reg. season games from 1993 to 95 due to him quitting on the Bulls/league in his prime. Plus that doesn't include the 16+ possible postseason games his missed in the 93-94 season.

That's 163 games he chose to miss.

[eeeeeebro]

so jordan averaging 35 points per game in finals mean nothing?

[3ball]

To HIS TEAM he is clearly more valuable. Cavs wouldn't even make the playoffs without him :coleman:


In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.

So they were a LOTTERY roster without Jordan in 1989, that Jordan led to ECF and 6 games with the champion Pistons (that's better than Lebron ever did with a lottery roster).

Jordan also led that same lottery roster from 1989, to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 (exact same roster) - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.

Btw, the stats prove that Jordan's supporting cast was weaker - his 33/8/8 yielded 47 wins for the 1989 Bulls, whereas Lebron's 28/8/7 yielded 66 wins in for the 2009 Cavs.. The 19 win gap can't be due ONLY to a weaker conference - it must be due to a weaker supporting cast as well.. Jordan's weaker cast also explains why he was required to DO MORE thru 31 years old, including 30% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12616538&postcount=71) more PPG in the playoffs with equal assists.

[AirBonner]

In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.

So they were a LOTTERY roster without Jordan in 1989, that Jordan led to ECF and 6 games with the champion Pistons (that's better than Lebron ever did with a lottery roster).

Jordan also led that same lottery roster from 1989, to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 (exact same roster) - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.

Btw, the stats prove that Jordan's supporting cast was weaker - his 33/8/8 yielded 47 wins for the 1989 Bulls, whereas Lebron's 28/8/7 yielded 66 wins in for the 2009 Cavs.. The 19 win gap can't be due ONLY to a weaker conference - it must be due to a weaker supporting cast as well.. Jordan's weaker cast also explains why he was required to DO MORE thru 31 years old, including 30% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12616538&postcount=71) more PPG in the playoffs with equal assists.
That is because Jordan's stats for the lack of a better term were "empty stats" compared to Lebron. A lot of things Lebron does can't be measured just his presence on the court is enough to change them from a lottery team to a championship contender. Not even Jordan has this effect on a team. Lebron can be a system. Jordan is part of a system it is as simple as that. Its the reason they won 55 games without him and had a legitimate chance at the championship.

[warriorfan]

That is because Jordan's stats for the lack of a better term were "empty stats" compared to Lebron. A lot of things Lebron does can't be measured just his presence on the court is enough to change them from a lottery team to a championship contender. Not even Jordan has this effect on a team. Lebron can be a system. Jordan is part of a system it is as simple as that. Its the reason they won 55 games without him and had a legitimate chance at the championship.

LeBron can be a system, yes

Is it a good system, no

[3ball]

Lebron can be a system.


Without team-hopping, Lebron's system is nothing:



Lebron's best BEFORE TEAM-HOPPING: getting swept by champion Spurs (22 ppg on 35%, worst-ever Finals performance for 1st option)

Jordan's best BEFORE PHIL: taking the champion Pistons 6 tough games (30 ppg on 46%, including b2b 40 pt games and legendary GW over Rodman)


Clearly, Jordan's best performance BEFORE PHIL is far superior to Lebron's best BEFORE TEAM-HOPPING.. :confusedshrug:





Lebron can be a system


Lebron's system required him to do less.. :confusedshrug:

Jordan's first 3 rings required him to score 25% more in the playoffs than Lebron's 3 rings, with equal assists and better efficiency (ts, fg, ortg, PER).. See the stats in post #37 of this thread, here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12679667&postcount=37).





Jordan is part of a system it is as simple as that. Its the reason they won 55 games without him and had a legitimate chance at the championship.


Jordan's goat stats won the Bulls a 3-peat, whereas they were a 2nd Round team without him in 1994, despite having the 3-peat know how and 3-peat chemistry.

And it wasn't like they were going to recover and win the championship the next season - they were PERMANENTLY a 2nd round team without Jordan, after being the goat team with him.

[Dray n Klay]

3ball, remove LeBron off the Cavs..


Do they only win 2 games less, like the Bulls without Jordan?



The Cavs are 2-14 without LeBron (worst team in the league), while the Bulls were 55-27 without Jordan (championship contender)






So Jordan turns championship contenders into champions




LeBron turns lottery teams into champions









LeBron is much more impactful than Jordan :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

LeBron turns lottery teams into champions


When did Lebron turn a lottery team into a champion?

I can tell you when Jordan did, but can you tell me when Lebron did?
.

[Dray n Klay]

3ball, remove LeBron off the Cavs..


Do they only win 2 games less, like the Bulls without Jordan?



The Cavs are 2-14 without LeBron (worst team in the league), while the Bulls were 55-27 without Jordan (championship contender)

[AirBonner]

3ball, remove LeBron off the Cavs..


Do they only win 2 games less, like the Bulls without Jordan?



The Cavs are 2-14 without LeBron (worst team in the league), while the Bulls were 55-27 without Jordan (championship contender)
This doesn't compute with 3alts. Doesn't suit his agenda :lol

[ShawkFactory]

Without team-hopping, Lebron's system is nothing:



Lebron's best BEFORE TEAM-HOPPING: getting swept by champion Spurs (22 ppg on 35%, worst-ever Finals performance for 1st option)

Jordan's best BEFORE PHIL: taking the champion Pistons 6 tough games (30 ppg on 46%, including b2b 40 pt games and legendary GW over Rodman)


[I][size="3"]Clearly, Jordan's best performance BEFORE PHIL is far superior to Lebron's best BEFORE TEAM-HOPPING.. :confusedshrug:.
Huh? Before going to Miami Lebron and the Cavs took the champs in 2008 to 7 games in a bloodbath.

Way to spin the shit out of that one :lol

[CuhGetsBucks]

Huh? Before going to Miami Lebron and the Cavs took the champs in 2008 to 7 games in a bloodbath.

Way to spin the shit out of that one :lol
Damn 3ball you can't go like this.

[Nash]

3ball, remove LeBron off the Cavs..


Do they only win 2 games less, like the Bulls without Jordan?



The Cavs are 2-14 without LeBron (worst team in the league), while the Bulls were 55-27 without Jordan (championship contender)
What if everybody quoted this.. surely 3ball would reply to it?

[3ball]

3ball, remove LeBron off the Cavs..


Do they only win 2 games less, like the Bulls without Jordan?



Easily, assuming they had accumulated 3-peat know-how and chemistry from winning 3 straight rings, AND if had all their key players healthy and in their prime.

For example, if the 2011 versions of Wade and Bosh had just won 3 straight rings, they could win 55 without Lebron easily.. Probably 60+... Wade BY HIMSELF won 48 games in 2010

Ditto for Kyrie and Love - if they won 3 in a row and were still healthy and in their prime, they'd win 55+ easily.. Probably 60+ .. Love would be getting 26/13 again and be all-nba again

But Lebron isn't good enough to win 3 in a row.. next





Huh? Before going to Miami Lebron and the Cavs took the champs in 2008 to 7 games in a bloodbath.


I didn't count this one because Lebron was atrocious - his team's defense carried him:

26.7 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 7.6 apg.. 35.5% fg.. 48.0 ts.. 96 ortg

YIKES

That doesn't compare to Jordan's stats and heroics against the champion Bad Boys
.

[3ball]

This doesn't compute with 3alts. Doesn't suit his agenda :lol


I answered all your points (as I always do), yet you're running away from the question I posed in the other thread... So I'll ask it here again:

1) Why did Jordan's first 3 rings require him to score 25% more in the playoffs than Lebron did for his 3 rings, with equal assists and better efficiency (ts, fg, ortg, PER).. (stats shown here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12679667&postcount=37))

2) How could 1989 Jordan achieve the same stats as 2009 Lebron, but win 19 less games?

(This 19-win gap can't ONLY be due to Lebron's weaker conference.. It must be due to superior supporting cast as well, such as an all-star guard, former all-star center, and far better role players... compared to... NOTHING for Jordan).

[Big164]

Shaq has gotta be the most disrespected player on this forum.

What's sad is a lot of you were old enough to see Shaq dominate yet still pretend a midget sf from Cleveland is on his level. MJ is the only guy under 6'9 that belongs in a GOAT discussion.

[aj1987]

Shaq has gotta be the most disrespected player on this forum.

What's sad is a lot of you were old enough to see Shaq dominate yet still pretend a midget sf from Cleveland is on his level. MJ is the only guy under 6'9 that belongs in a GOAT discussion.
Who's the 6'9" midget SF from Cleveland?

Agreed that Shaq is a top 5 player though.

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Shaq
4. LeBron
5. Magic

[3ball]

Shaq has gotta be the most disrespected player on this forum.


Prime Jordan's 91-93' versus Prime Shaq's 00-02':


Rebounds/Assists cancel out... So do Steals/Blocks and FG/FT% - here's the relevant stats:


REGULAR SEASON

MJ:.... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense 1st Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense 2nd Team.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ:.... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ:.... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played. #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd




Even OLD MAN Jordan had big edges on prime Shaq, especially in 4th:


.........Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <---- links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)



Seriously, you guys don't recognize the massive offensive force that Jordan was, and how that controlled the entire game..

MJ was the biggest focal point of a defense EVER, and that's how he was reported on by the media.

You had to be there to watch the games in their entirety and feel the vibe and aura surrounding Jordan - then you'd understand how dominant he was.. :confusedshrug:
.

[ShawkFactory]

Easily, assuming they had accumulated 3-peat know-how and chemistry from winning 3 straight rings, AND if had all their key players healthy and in their prime.

For example, if the 2011 versions of Wade and Bosh had just won 3 straight rings, they could win 55 without Lebron easily.. Probably 60+... Wade BY HIMSELF won 48 games in 2010

Ditto for Kyrie and Love - if they won 3 in a row and were still healthy and in their prime, they'd win 55+ easily.. Probably 60+ .. Love would be getting 26/13 again and be all-nba again

But Lebron isn't good enough to win 3 in a row.. next



I didn't count this one because Lebron was atrocious - his team's defense carried him:

26.7 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 7.6 apg.. 35.5% fg.. 48.0 ts.. 96 ortg

YIKES

That doesn't compare to Jordan's stats and heroics against the champion Bad Boys
.
So you didn't count that one...but you listed the worst series of his career? Interesting tactics

[3ball]

So you didn't count that one...but you listed the worst series of his career? Interesting tactics


It's hard to say which series was worse;

2007 Finals: 22 ppg on 35%

2011 Finals: 17 ppg, biggest choke ever

2008 ECSF: 26.7 ppg on 35%


They're all FAR worse than Jordan's worst playoffs series... :confusedshrug:

But that shouldn't be a surprise - we already know that Jordan scored 25% more in the playoffs for his career, with only 1.1 less assists (offset by fewer turnovers), and better efficiency across the board (ts, fg, ortg, PER)..

Thru their first 3 rings each (thru 31 years old), Jordan scored 25% more in the playoffs with EQUAL assists, and 33% more in the Finals with GREATER assists and half the turnovers..

So Jordan was simply the FAR superior playoff performer.. It isn't close, which is why Jordan has twice the rings and FMVP's thru 13 seasons.. lol.. Jordan destroys him

[ShawkFactory]

It's hard to say which series was worse;

2007 Finals: 22 ppg on 35%

2011 Finals: 17 ppg, biggest choke ever

2008 ECSF: 26.7 ppg on 35%


They're all FAR worse than Jordan's worst playoffs series... :confusedshrug:

But that shouldn't be a surprise - we already know that Jordan scored 25% more in the playoffs for his career, with only 1.1 less assists (offset by fewer turnovers), and better efficiency across the board (ts, fg, ortg, PER).. Thru their first 3 rings each (thru 31 years old), Jordan scored 25% more in the playoffs with EQUAL assists, and 33% more in the Finals with GREATER assists and half the turnovers..

So Jordan was simply the FAR superior playoff performer.. It isn't close, which is why Jordan has twice the rings and FMVP's thru 13 seasons.. lol.. Jordan destroys himit seems pretty clear to me which one is the worst :lol

[ClipperRevival]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but VORP is a cumulative stat kind of like total points scored.

Considering Lebron has played over 1000 more minutes of playoff basketball than Jordan, this is not a surprising stat.

Let's not let facts get in the way.

[Big164]

Prime Jordan's 91-93' versus Prime Shaq's 00-02':


Rebounds/Assists cancel out... So do Steals/Blocks and FG/FT% - here's the relevant stats:

.

In the case of Shaq/MJ rebounds and assists do not cancel out because shaq was an Elite rebounder while MJ was just adequate at assists. Shaq averaging 16 boards in the finals would be like MJ averaging 9-10 assists.

2000 blazers were better, deeper than any west coast team MJ ever faced.

[Sarcastic]

In the case of Shaq/MJ rebounds and assists do not cancel out because shaq was an Elite rebounder while MJ was just adequate at assists. Shaq averaging 16 boards in the finals would be like MJ averaging 9-10 assists.

2000 blazers were better, deeper than any west coast team MJ ever faced.

Blazers had no go to superstar. 93 Suns, 96 Sonics, and both Jazz teams were better than the 00 Blazers. I'd probably take the Lakers and 92 Blazers ahead of them as well.

[3ball]

In the case of Shaq/MJ rebounds and assists do not cancel out because shaq was an Elite rebounder while MJ was just adequate at assists. Shaq averaging 16 boards in the finals would be like MJ averaging 9-10 assists.

2000 blazers were better, deeper than any west coast team MJ ever faced.
MJ averaged 11.2 apg in 1991 finals and 7.9 apg in 91-93 finals overall (more than lebron's overall average in his winning finals 2012/2013/2016)

Jordan's goat passing in the 1991 Finals is worth more than shaq's boards, which are far more replaceable - any stiff big man can go get a few boards