Team assist rankings for Jordan and Lebron's teams

[3ball]

.
Bulls 1985:. 20th...................................... Cavs 2004:. 8th
Bulls 1986:. 19th...................................... Cavs 2005:. 6th
Bulls 1987:. 12th...................................... Cavs 2006:. 24th
Bulls 1988:. 9th....................................... Cavs 2007:. 15th
Bulls 1989:. 6th....................................... Cavs 2008:. 25th
Bulls 1990:. 7th....................................... Cavs 2009:. 20th
Bulls 1991:. 4th....................................... Cavs 2010:. 6th
Bulls 1992:. 3rd....................................... Heat 2011:. 26th
Bulls 1993:. 6th....................................... Heat 2012:. 21st
Bulls 1996:. 5th....................................... Heat 2013:. 7th
Bulls 1997:. 2nd...................................... Heat 2014:. 11th
Bulls 1998:. 7th....................................... Cavs 2015:. 10th
.................................................. ......... Cavs 2016:.. 13th
__________________________..................______ _____________________
7.7 average rank for MJ's teams..... 14.8 average rank for Lebron's teams


Conclusion: Lebron's teams ranked in the top 10 only 4 of 13 seasons, while Jordan's teams were in the top 10 for 9 of 12 seasons (9 straight seasons after 1987).. This is significant, since championship teams are nearly always ranked among the top 10 in assists.

And we know WHY Lebron's teams rank so poorly at passing.. It's statistical fact that every key teammate that Lebron had during his career saw their APG and assist percentage lowered (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12606535&postcount=10) alongside him, while their assisted rate (play-finishing) increased - he turns teammates into play-finishers, rather than allowing them to retain their maximum playmaking capability.

To offset his reduction of teammate stats (APG and PPG), Lebron must rely on excessive supporting talent (team-hopping).. Furthermore, the lack of passing and chemistry results in a brand of basketball that usually can't succeed at the highest level (3/7), which again, necessitates extra supporting talent to win (team-hopping).

Otoh, Jordan's teammates saw their assists INCREASE alongside him, mainly because Jordan played OFF-BALL, and therefore was an assist reservoir for teammates that was worth up to 33.5 ppg worth of assists (Jordan's playoff scoring average)..

Ultimately, Jordan's off-ball style resulted in superior passing and brand of basketball that could consistently succeed at the highest level (6/6).. The superior brand of basketball that Jordan's game enabled meant that he didn't need excessive supporting talent to win (he never team-hopped, and won 6 rings with just 1 all-star teammate, compared to 6 all-star teammates for Lebron and 2 team-hops).
.

[aj1987]

Are you telling me that the dude who played under the GOAT coach played in a better offensive system? Shocking!

[Dray n Klay]

How much did those assists help in avoiding 1-9?

[3ball]

Are you telling me that the dude who played under the GOAT coach played in a better offensive system? Shocking!


the triangle is a shit system - just ask the knicks and the many other teams that have tried it and embarrassingly failed.

the triangle only works if you have a goat post presence (you know, someone who can score without dribbling much), such as MJ, Shaq or Kobe/Pau.. btw, Jordan's teams ranked in top 10 for assists the 2 seasons BEFORE Phil ever got there, so your argument fails on many levels.

also, phil was a first-time, nobody coach when he took over in 1990, just like mike brown was for lebron.. and phil simply continued the progression the bulls had been on under doug collins - he lost in 7 games to the pistons in 1990, after collins lost in 6 in 1989, and 5 in 1988.
.

[Meticode]

What was the assist per game for each year/team?

[Smoke117]

A new 3ball thread! :applause: Didn't read it...but, nice.

[3ball]

What was the assist per game for each year/team?


Jordan's teams had higher APG every year.

However, it's irrelevant because they played in two different eras that had vastly different styles of play (no spacing and paint-camping... versus today's spacing and open paints/defensive 3.. obviously, it's easier to pass WITH spacing, than without)

So the APG stats are irrelevant due to the different eras and playing style.. Instead, the teams' rankings relative to the league is what's important.. But by either measure, Jordan's teams were vastly superior passing teams than Lebron's, due to the reasons stated in the OP.

[scm5]

Honestly, Lebron would be such a beast and would probably extend his career if he stopped being so ball dominant. He's a beast off the ball when he wants to be. I think it's time to transition Kyrie into the primary playmaker after this season.

[Bankaii]

So you're saying playing in the GOAT system along another top 30 GOAT that happens to be an equal, or even better playmaker, in Pippen for most of his career was more effective than Lebron being the system and only playing with another playmaker for 4 years.

Never would've guessed:eek:

[Smoke117]

So you're saying playing in the GOAT system along another top 30 GOAT that happens to be an equal, or even better playmaker, in Pippen for most of his career was more effective than Lebron being the system and only playing with another playmaker for 4 years.

Never would've guessed:eek:

Trying to reason with members of the Jordan cult...that's adorable.

[3ball]

Honestly, Lebron would be such a beast and would probably extend his career if he stopped being so ball dominant. He's a beast off the ball when he wants to be. I think it's time to transition Kyrie into the primary playmaker after this season.
The stats show that Lebron ranks in the bottom quarter of the league for off-ball plays as defined and tracked by nba.com, which includes "spot-ups", "off-screen", and "cuts":

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/off-screen/?sort=Time&dir=1


Also, Lebron ranks in the bottom third of the league in post-ups - he posts up only 11.5% of the time with a 0.79 PPP (that's only better than 35% of the league), compared to 10.5% for Durant at 0.97 PPP (better than 68% of the league)..

At least Durant is a good shooter so the turnaround is there all day, whereas Lebron has nothing he can go to on the block other than the easily-stopped and gameplanned for bully-ball.. So no, Lebron does NOT have off-ball ability.. No moves, no smarts, just size.

[AussieSteve]

Yet Lebron averaged more assists than Jordan. So what you've proved is that Jordan was assisted more than Lebron. Lebron had to create his own shot more because he was in a lesser offensive system. Imagne what Lebron would have achieved if he was in the Phil Jackson system.

[Meticode]

Jordan's teams had higher APG every year.

However, it's irrelevant because they played in two different eras that had vastly different styles of play (no spacing and paint-camping... versus today's spacing and open paints/defensive 3.. obviously, it's easier to pass WITH spacing, than without)

So the APG stats are irrelevant due to the different eras and playing style.. Instead, the teams' rankings relative to the league is what's important.. But by either measure, Jordan's teams were vastly superior passing teams than Lebron's, due to the reasons stated in the OP.
This is exactly what I wanted you to post. In the end it just means nothing. You're cherry picking to undermine another team.

[Smoke117]

This is exactly what I wanted you to post. In the end it just means nothing. You're cherry picking to undermine another team.

Player you mean...he doesn't care about teams...this revolves entirely around Jordan and Lebron as everything he post does.

[AussieSteve]

Player you mean...he doesn't care about teams...this revolves entirely around Jordan and Lebron as everything he post does.

If anything i feel like he has made an argument in favor of lebron. Jordan had the benefit of a great offensive system and was assisted far more than lebron. Lebron assisted more and so he created more oportunities for others, but he was assisted less so also had to create his own scoring oportunities more.

[Smoke117]

the triangle is a shit system - just ask the knicks and the many other teams that have tried it and embarrassingly failed.

the triangle only works if you have a GOAT post presence (you know, someone who can score without dribbling much), such as MJ, Shaq, or Kobe/Pau.

those are the facts - but keep on saying it's the goat system if it makes you feel better.. you probably still think hillary is going to win.

Actually, The 1994 bulls ran the triangle offense at it's purest. Tex Winters himself has said that the triangle was never used as well as it was with that Bulls team. That team was a bad call away from likely going to the Finals, so your theory that you need a dominant post presence for it to work is wrong.

[3ball]

MJ had an equal, or even better playmaker, in Pippen


Dwayne Wade averaged 6.6 APG from 04-10' before joining Lebron, which is more than Pippen's APG.. But once Wade joined Lebron, his APG fell to 4.7..

Similarly, Kyrie (one of the best point guards in the league) averaged 5.8 APG pre-Lebron (that's more than Pippen), and 5.0 after Lebron in the 2015 and 2016 seasons.

Finally, Mo Williams averaged 5.7 APG before joining Lebron, which is more than Pippen's average.. Mo Williams was a POINT GUARD that Lebron turned into a spot-up shooter - he only averaged 4.6 APG alongside Lebron in 2009 and 2010 seasons.

All these stats are shown here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12606535&postcount=10)






equal, or even better playmaker, in Pippen


Can Pippen start at point guard and average 30/9/11 like Jordan did during his 24-game PG stint in 1989, when everyone said MJ was already a better point guard than Isiah and Magic (http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/)?

Obviously not.. Pippen's handles are basic and ordinary - he can't "break a defender down" off-the-dribble like Jordan or point guards can.

But let's just look at the stats - Jordan led the Bulls in assists for most playoff runs, and for the 6 championship runs as a whole - specifically, he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) 3-peat runs, so he assisted on the highest proportion of Bulls' field goals during the 6 championship runs.. During the first 3-peat playoffs, MJ assisted on 33% more teammate FG's than Pippen (31% assist percentage in 91-93 playoffs, to Pippen's 23%).

Keep in mind that he led the Bulls in passing, WHILE leading them in scoring for every playoff series of his career by an average margin of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920).. No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career, let alone by a margin of 15 ppg like Jordan, WHILE leading their team in passing and being the best defender ever at their position.
.

[3ball]

Tex Winters himself has said that the triangle was never used as well as with the that 1994 Bulls.


Tex was just being politically correct and being "nice" to the 94' Bulls - the reality is that the Bulls offensive rating cratered from #1 all-time during the first three-peat, to 14th in the league in 1994.

So you don't know what you're talking about..





That team was a bad call away from likely going to the Finals, so your theory that you need a dominant post presence for it work is wrong.


The Bulls were a 2nd Round team in 1994 that would've gone down 3-0 to the Knicks and got swept if Kukoc hadn't hit that miracle walk-off at the end of Game 3.. So no, the triangle didn't "work" with the 94' Bulls... Unless you consider a drop-off from goat dynasty to 2nd round team "working"

[NBAGOAT]

Yet Lebron averaged more assists than Jordan. So what you've proved is that Jordan was assisted more than Lebron. Lebron had to create his own shot more because he was in a lesser offensive system. Imagne what Lebron would have achieved if he was in the Phil Jackson system.

:lol well argued but it won't work against 3ball. You'll soon get used to 3ball's logic. In his mind, Jordan being assisted more shows he's a superior off ball player and his edge over Lebron is the reason the offensive system is better, not Phil Jackson.

[Smoke117]

This obsession these Jordan stans have is just pathetic. You do realize we're talking about a ****ing GAME, right? The way this clown 3ball talks, you'd think MJ was playing with Wade's supporting cast from 09 or Kobe's from 06 while the Bulls were winning championships. On that not...they were able to win more than 1 playoff game with their shitty casts.

[warriorfan]

3ball is the most knowledgeable poster on the forum by a good margin

[3ball]

well argued


Really?.. Aussie's post shows a lack of hoops acumen.

The triangle doesn't allow ball-domination and has no point guard, so Lebron wouldn't be able to play in it - he'd either team-hop again or get Phil fired - plain and simple.

Specifically, the triangle is an equal-opportunity offense that even the off-ball Jordan had trouble accepting, as Phil states here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s


In the triangle, every player initiates the offense by making a post entry pass, and every player has the opportunity to make plays by CATCHING that post entry pass.. There's no room for the ball-dominant style that Lebron has employed his entire career.. It's well-known that the triangle offense HAS NO POINT GUARD or point guard-style player.

[Bankaii]

This moron thinks assists numbers are the end all to determine playmaking ability:oldlol:

2016 Westbrook>any Jordan season as a playmaker right?

[3ball]

This moron thinks assists numbers are the end all to determine playmaking ability:oldlol:

2016 Westbrook>any Jordan season as a playmaker right?


Again, can Pippen start at point guard and average 30/9/11 for 24 games and have everyone saying he was already a better PG than Magic and Isiah?.. Obviously not - not with the basic, rudimentary handle that Pippen had.. Pippen was a basic passer and dribbler - he wasn't a break-down playmaker and dimer like Jordan and point guards.

You're also missing an important point - Pippen didn't have a big scoring burden, whereas Jordan led the Bulls in scoring by an average margin of 15 ppg WHILE leading the team in playoff assists during both 3-peats..

No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career, let alone by a margin of 15 ppg like Jordan, WHILE leading their team in passing, and WHILE being the best defender ever at their position.. Look at Lebron - that fool doesn't even lead his team in scoring right now, just like the 2011 playoffs, and he only led Kyrie by 1 point in 2016 playoffs.. Don't compare that team-hopping beta to the goat

[NBAGOAT]

Really?.. Aussie's post shows a lack of hoops acumen.

The triangle doesn't allow ball-domination and has no point guard, so Lebron wouldn't be able to play in it - he'd either team-hop again or get Phil fired - plain and simple.

Specifically, the triangle is an equal-opportunity offense, as Phil states here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s


In the triangle, every player initiates the offense by making a post entry pass, and every player has the opportunity to make plays by CATCHING that post entry pass.. There's no room for the ball-dominant style that Lebron has employed his entire career.. It's well-known that the triangle offense HAS NO POINT GUARD or point guard-style player.

simple rebuttal. Do you think Lebron would be as ball dominant if he started off under a coach like Phil or Pop and played in a better system. Plenty of coaches think very highly of his bball iq. I'm pretty sure with that and his athleticism, he could do many things well as an off ball player.

[Smoke117]

Look at Lebron - that fool doesn't even lead his team in scoring right now, just like the 2011 playoffs, and he only led Kyrie by 1 point in 2016 playoffs.. Don't compare that team-hopping beta to the goat

Great players are going to be compared to other great players...it's only natural. Lebron james is going to likely retire a top 3 payer of all time and the other player in that equation is KAJ, so it's only natural the two greatest perimeter players are going to be compared to each other. Lebron James is a better playmaker and passer, period. Nobody who isn't biased towards Jordan would disagree with that. Stop bringing up team hopping too when the Bulls drafted Scottie Pippen...a player who is commonly considered a top 30 player of all time. Who the hell did the Cavs ever draft close to Pippen while Lebron was there to help him?

[egokiller]

Are you telling me that the dude who played under the GOAT coach played in a better offensive system? Shocking!

I didn't realize that MJ played for coach Pop.

Are you telling me that the dude who coached MJ, Kobe, and Shaq hasn't done shit without them? Shocking!

[egokiller]

3ball is the most knowledgeable poster on the forum by a good margin

95% of the posters on here never saw MJ play. Would you expect them to know much relative to those who did?

[3ball]

simple rebuttal. Do you think Lebron would be as ball dominant if he started off under a coach like Phil or Pop and played in a better system. Plenty of coaches think very highly of his bball iq. I'm pretty sure with that and his athleticism, he could do many things well as an off ball player.


Maybe I haven't been clear..

Lebron has ALWAYS been a point guard - look at his high school games - the guy has played point guard his entire career.. The reason he posts up at the same frequency as Durant, or has a poor triple-threat skills, or scores almost no points off-screens or spotting up, is because he is POOR at those aspects of the game.

Keep in mind that he's had MANY coaches in his career and every single one let him play point guard - that's the only way he's an elite, all-time great player.. If he was forced to operate from the post all game, or play off-ball, he wouldn't be anywhere near the player he is now (because his skills in these areas are POOR).

Now if Lebron went to college in a previous eras, then he would be a different, much better player - every player in previous eras learned the FUNDAMENTALS of off-ball scoring (https://media.giphy.com/media/sMEYKXY5vSezK/giphy.gif), including post moves (https://media.giphy.com/media/xT4uQoN51xmHONisr6/giphy.gif) and triple-threat (https://media.giphy.com/media/xT4uQwXCdJnRJ1PGrS/giphy.gif) scoring skills (playmaking (https://media.giphy.com/media/l0FebuUsQije07DeU/giphy.gif) from pre-dribble, stationary position).. But even in today's era, guys like Ben Simmons are allowed to play ball-dominant, so Lebron would still be ball-dominant if he went to college in today's era.

[Smoke117]

Keep in mind that he's had MANY coaches in his career and every single one let him play point guard - that's the only way he's an elite, all-time great player.. If he was forced to operate from the post all game, or play off-ball, he wouldn't be anywhere near the player he is now (because his skills in these areas are POOR).


Wtf? Why would you force a player to go against his greatest strength? This might be the stupidest post you've ever made. You are literally criticizing Lebron for being, EASILY, the greatest playmaker and passer for a guy his size. You are criticizing a guy who is 6'9" 260 for being a great pg? Are you ****ing retarded or something? I love this..."let him play pg" nonsense especially. You're so wrapped up in your obsession with Jordan that it makes you say the stupidest shit.

[3ball]

Stop bringing up team hopping too when the Bulls drafted Scottie Pippen...a player who is commonly considered a top 30 player of all time.


Lebron team-hopped twice to play with TWO superstars - so for your Pippen argument to be valid, the Bulls would've needed to draft say, McHale or Kemp along with Pippen.. :confusedshrug:





Lebron James is a better playmaker and passer, period. Nobody who isn't biased towards Jordan would disagree with that.


Lebron isn't a better passer - he's simply a more WILLING passer because he's a far worse scorer and his scoring burden is far less than Jordan's.

Lebron isn't even his team's leading scorer this season... and also in the 2011 playoffs... and he only led Kyrie by 1 ppg in last year's playoffs..

Otoh, Jordan led his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career by an average margin of 15.4 ppg.. No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career, let alone by a margin of 15 ppg like Jordan, WHILE leading their team in passing, and WHILE being the best defender ever at their position.

Ultimately, Lebron plays point guard and Jordan SG (with a far greater scoring burden), yet Jordan averages only 1.0-1.5 less assists than Lebron, which is offset by fewer turnovers.. And the one time Jordan played point guard, he was a better PG than Lebron ever was, and people said he was better than Isiah and Magic too.. Jordan was better at everything than Lebron, except defensive rebounding.

[Smoke117]

It's hilarious how you don't even understand how insecure this all makes you look about Jordan's place in history. If Jordan is so much better than Lebron...then why do you need to talk nonstop shit on Lebron? Why do you try and tear him down so much? If he's not a threat you shouldn't need to do what you have done for over a year now, right?

[3ball]

It's hilarious how you don't even understand how insecure this all makes you look about Jordan's place in history. If Jordan is so much better than Lebron...then why do you need to talk nonstop shit on Lebron? Why do you try and tear him down so much? If he's not a threat you shouldn't need to do what you have done for over a year now, right?


It's a somewhat rare, but SOME people that talk shit aren't insecure - see Ali, or Deion Sanders - those guys just like to rub it in against their opponent.. :confusedshrug:

Or imagine a fat bully in grade school beating up on a poor runt, with his grin getting wider and wider with each downward blow from his mount position.

Indeed, I do it fi fun

[Smoke117]

It's a somewhat rare, but SOME people that talk shit aren't insecure - see Ali, or Deion Sanders - those guys just like to rub it in against their opponent.. :confusedshrug:

Imagine a fat bully in grade school beating up on a poor runt, with his grin getting wider and wider with each downward blow from his mount position.

Indeed, I do it fi fun

Cringe.

[3ball]

Cringe.
You should be, you're the poor runt

[TommyGriffin]

Smoke is getting bullied.

[Smoke117]

You should be, you're the poor runt

Yes...you've really put me in my place...on the internet...on a basketball board. :rolleyes: This shit is 99er level of cringe.

[CuhGetsBucks]

Lol I know if this nikka 3ball tried to guard me I'd give his ass a rude bucket.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:oldlol: at anybody entertaining a serious discussion with 3ball. Other than posting cool gifs, he's no different than kenny and 9er. Attention seeking, basement dwellers.

[3ball]

Lol I know if this nikka 3ball tried to guard me I'd give his ass a rude bucket.
if you in vegas, hmu

[CuhGetsBucks]

if you in vegas, hmu
Sounds like a plan :cheers:

[3ball]

Sounds like a plan :cheers:

Show me a ***** in the league that does a behind the back crossover like this..


https://media.giphy.com/media/8YRG4lV5bNbDq/giphy.gif


that's in flip-flops btw

[CuhGetsBucks]

Show me a ***** in the league that does a behind the back crossover like this..


https://media.giphy.com/media/8YRG4lV5bNbDq/giphy.gif


that's in flip-flops btw
Thats you? How tall are you like 6'2?

[Smoke117]

Show me a ***** in the league that does a behind the back crossover like this..


https://media.giphy.com/media/8YRG4lV5bNbDq/giphy.gif


that's in flip-flops btw

LOL that's horrible...the ball was up at your head before you even got control of it.

[3ball]

Thats you? How tall are you like 6'2?



How tall do I look?


https://media.giphy.com/media/G9XcsA04fbzuo/giphy.gif

[CuhGetsBucks]

How tall do I look?


https://media.giphy.com/media/G9XcsA04fbzuo/giphy.gif
The defender looks pretty short so about 6'2, 6'3

[3ball]

LOL that's horrible...the ball was up at your head before you even got control of it.



Uh no, today's fan just isn't familiar with moves like that, or paint-camping-induced midrange pull-ups for that matter:


https://media.giphy.com/media/7EJzYmVMJwnDy/giphy.gif

[Dray n Klay]

3ball, that was a pretty good crossover, but your overall coordination and movement is below average

Don't think we're fooled by your cherry-picked highlights versus average ball players who weren't playing any defense. Looking at those gifs its clear why you never made it big on the college level.



Quick observations of your game:


- Poor shooting form, you tend to leave the ball way above your head or a natural shooting motion. Its okay for close range shots, but that form suggests you're not consistent with your outside shot, making you a liability behind the 3 point line.


- You're dribbling is high and uncontrolled, and it showed in the 2nd gif, when you struggled to regain position of the basketball. It is good for fancy, and-1 crossovers when defenders aren't really trying, but at the elite levels you would get stripped repeatedly, this suggests you play more in the post and are hesitant to bring the ball up the court.


- Finally, you're sluggish overall in the court. I know your on flip flops, but your ability to move laterally is lacking, that is why you tend to slow down to try and fade away, instead of beating you man of the dribble, forcing you to settle for contested shots (which you probably shoot a low percentage off)


Just my objective analysis

[CuhGetsBucks]

Uh no, today's fan just isn't familiar with moves like that, or paint-camping-induced midrange pull-ups for that matter:


https://media.giphy.com/media/7EJzYmVMJwnDy/giphy.gif
He even tries to play like MJ :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[3ball]

3ball, that was a pretty good crossover, but your overall coordination and movement is below average


thanks for the compliment.

however, your sentence above is an oxymoron - a "good" crossover means the coordination and movement on said crossover was "good", or above average.





Don't think we're fooled by your cherry-picked highlights versus average ball players who weren't playing any defense.


the 3 possessions that I showed were in a 1:12 span - that's how long the entire youtube video is.





Looking at those gifs its clear why you never made it big on the college level.


shit, if i had my current handles and skills back in college when i had quickness and hops (https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p206x206/10365982_10203881636820792_6374383594081119593_n.j pg?oh=95e9f7a348157d4896f97d5398c9e56b&oe=58B64825), you'd know who I was outside of ISH





Quick observations of your game:

- Poor shooting form



The gifs never showed my shooting form because the fadeaway midrange shot was obstructed by players

Here's my form, unobstructed:


https://media.giphy.com/media/ohaXb0BeSHrJC/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/frgQD1UL9Mr3G/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/TuDarynFz1zI4/giphy.gif






Your form is okay for close range shots


you mean midrange?.. the kind of shot i can get whenever i want regardless of contest?

yeah, that's all i need shawn





but that form suggests you're not consistent with your outside shot, making you a liability behind the 3 point line


the form is decent, but i don't practice 3's, so touche





It's good for fancy, and-1 crossovers when defenders aren't really trying, but at the elite levels you would get stripped repeatedly, this suggests you play more in the post and are hesitant to bring the ball up the court.


Well, I'm 40.. So although I've mastered substantially every move off-the-dribble, I would expect to get stripped "at the elite levels" at my age.

But if I had my 25-year old athleticism with the handles I've acquired over the last 13 years, then I'd be blowing by and embarrassing elite players.





- Finally, you're sluggish overall in the court. I know your on flip flops,


How much slower to you think a player moves when they're in flip-flops rather than basketball shoes?

30% slower, 50% slower, 70% slower?... what would an nba game look like if everyone was in flip-flops that were constantly coming off?... :oldlol:

#flipflops






but your ability to move laterally is lacking, that is why you tend to slow down to try and fade away, instead of beating you man of the dribble


Actually, despite the slowness from flip-flops, the 2 gifs where I'm dribbling show me BEATING the initial defender due to skilled moves - first with the crossover, then a hesitation duck-under move vs. double team - both moves clearly beat the defender.. indeed, skill - including proper footwork cadence - can help offset a lack of speed from flip-flops.

On the duck-under, I just decided to take a fadeaway rather than take a harder angle that would get me to the rim.. It's standard for players to do this.. Just ask Dirk, or Paul Pierce or Jordan, who did this all the time.. It's especially convenient to have great midrange when you're in flip-flops that prevent you from planting hard to elevate at the rim.





Just my objective analysis


thanks bro.. at some point in the next few months, i'll post some more in real shoes and then you won't be able to nitpick.. and yeah, someone will get dunked on

i'll also post a dunk that dr. j never did in his entire career (it will be an ode TO dr. j... a clear demonstration of how great he'd be today)
.

[Smoke117]

shit, if i had my current handles and skills back in college when i had quickness and hops (https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p206x206/10365982_10203881636820792_6374383594081119593_n.j pg?oh=95e9f7a348157d4896f97d5398c9e56b&oe=58B64825), you'd know who I was outside of ISH


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/michael-jordan-laugh.gif

[Bankaii]

3Ball please meet me somewhere and play me.
Smoking your weak ass would make my day.
Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Philly, Texas: I go to all these states year round. Basically anywhere on the East coast.

[Dray n Klay]

3ball, I hope you didn't take my analysis the wrong way


Make no mistake, you're definitely not the worst player I've ever seen on a basketball court, you seem to possess average ball handling, shot creation, and finishing ability.


By no means you're not the worst player to show up to a YMCA gym, but not close to the best either.


So overall you're about average as a basketball player, there's no shame in that, for a 40 year old its not bad, as most stop playing by 32-35 years old.




Average means that if you walk down the street and pick a random 18-49 year old male from the street...


Half of them would be better than you at basketball, half of them would be worse than you.




So you should feel good overall about your game, you're better than half the 18-49 male American population at basketball.





Keep practicing and honing your skills, and hopefully you can develop a suitable big-man game to compensate for you're below average lateral movement, ball security, and shooting touch.

[3ball]

3Ball please meet me somewhere and play me.
Smoking your weak ass would make my day.
Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Philly, Texas: I go to all these states year round. Basically anywhere on the East coast.


I'd beat you in flip-flops with one arm or maybe even on all jumpshots, depending on how offensively competent you are.

If Raja Bell, Richard Jefferson, Anthony Parker, John Salmons, Luke Walton, Richard Jefferson, and Zach Randolph couldn't hold me on the post, what are you going to do?

I remember Richard Jefferson was trying to guard me on the post and I was dropping him off, before his boy Walton had to tell him to step up his game.. Then I saw Jordan drop Jefferson for 40 at 40, and honestly, my experience with Rich took a little shine of Jordan's performance.. real talk... same thing when Kobe used to drop off Raj.. I was like, yeah, that's nothing, really.. tbh, kobe had to work harder to score on the post vs Raj than i did/would.. i can meet you in la or vegas.. or next time i'm in fl

[CuhGetsBucks]

3Ball please meet me somewhere and play me.
Smoking your weak ass would make my day.
Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Philly, Texas: I go to all these states year round. Basically anywhere on the East coast.
You ever in DC or VA?

[Fire Colangelo]

Lol @ everybody talking shit about 3ball's form, crossovers, etc.

Maybe post some gifs/YT videos of your own before starting to talk shit.

[CuhGetsBucks]

Lol @ everybody talking shit about 3ball's form, crossovers, etc.

Maybe post some gifs/YT videos of your own before starting to talk shit.
There's literally 3 people doing it and you say everybody hmmm interesting

[Smoke117]

Lol @ everybody talking shit about 3ball's form, crossovers, etc.

Maybe post some gifs/YT videos of your own before starting to talk shit.

What do you expect? Everybody finds the guy an obnoxious prick. Do you praise people you can't stand? Besides, when you put yourself into a public setting you open yourself up to criticism.

[egokiller]

Is that 33 or 21 you are playing? Looks like a standard hit a jump shot, make your 3 freebies on some scrubs, hit another jump shot, rinse and repeat all the way to 33. I once did this for 4 games in a row at rucker without missing a shot. No one wants to double team in these games so it's like a boring shooting drill.

[Bankaii]

I'd beat you in flip-flops with one arm or maybe even on all jumpshots, depending on how offensively competent you are.

If Raja Bell, Richard Jefferson, Anthony Parker, John Salmons, Luke Walton, Richard Jefferson, and Zach Randolph couldn't hold me on the post, what are you going to do?

I remember Richard Jefferson was trying to guard me on the post and I was dropping him off, before his boy Walton had to tell him to step up his game.. Then I saw Jordan drop Jefferson for 40 at 40, and honestly, my experience with Rich took a little shine of Jordan's performance.. real talk... same thing when Kobe used to drop off Raj.. I was like, yeah, that's nothing, really.. tbh, kobe had to work harder to score on the post vs Raj than i did/would.. i can meet you in la or vegas.. or next time i'm in fl
Geez you're beyond delusional:roll:
I'll be in Orlando/Miami for a week for spring break, don't puss out.


You ever in DC or VA?
Not really maybe two times a piece.
Other than passing through I don't really go to either places because I don't know anyone there.

[CuhGetsBucks]

Is that 33 or 21 you are playing? Looks like a standard hit a jump shot, make your 3 freebies on some scrubs, hit another jump shot, rinse and repeat all the way to 33. I once did this for 4 games in a row at rucker without missing a shot. No one wants to double team in these games so it's like a boring shooting drill.
You're not playing with competitive people, if it's 19 up; you better believe you'll have 4 people checking you on the perimeter.

[Bankaii]

Is that 33 or 21 you are playing? Looks like a standard hit a jump shot, make your 3 freebies on some scrubs, hit another jump shot, rinse and repeat all the way to 33. I once did this for 4 games in a row at rucker without missing a shot. No one wants to double team in these games so it's like a boring shooting drill.
So you went from lying about being at the Cleveland parade to lying about playing at Rucker park.
Y'all must have some really pathetic lives to have to lie about all this stuff.

[egokiller]

You're not playing with competitive people, if it's 19 up; you better believe you'll have 4 people checking you on the perimeter.

Naw, these guys were so good that if anyone pulls down a rebound, it's game
cause none of us are missing. Not going to have 4 guys on you so that one guy under the glass gets the rebound and wins it all.

Cleveland parade? What parade?

[3ball]

Geez you're beyond delusional:roll:
I'll be in Orlando/Miami for a week for spring break, don't puss out.


Raj is an easy score on the post, as is Richard Jefferson.. Raj is easier of the two

I played D1 ball.. What did you play?? (crickets coming)

Btw, it would be a priviledge for you to play me, not the other way around.. You're just another delusional stiff that will get destroyed worse than he ever has before.. I've done it many, many times.. And I talk mad shit.. Good shit.. You'll want to forget the experience but it'll be seared into your brain.

[3ball]

Looks like a standard hit a jump shot, make your 3 freebies on some scrubs


Those guys would crush most of the posters on here, if not all of them.





No one wants to double team in these games so it's like a boring shooting drill.



they were double-teaming me most possessions, as I showed earlier:


https://media.giphy.com/media/7EJzYmVMJwnDy/giphy.gif

[egokiller]

Those two guys trying to cover you would get destroyed in even an average competitive req league. No clue about the others as the clips don't show them doing much other than standing under the basket. I mean shit, the guy went to contest your shot and he barely got 12 inches off the ground. :roll:

[3ball]

Those two guys trying to cover you would get destroyed in even an average competitive req league.


those guys are the caliber of an average rec league, which most of ISH posters aren't good enough to play in

yeah, i dominated them in flip-flops because i was at the park so my kid could play on the swings, when my wife unexpectedly asked me to play... most of today's softies would be like 'oh but i'm only in flip flops i need rest' gimme a break no problem babe

[Bankaii]

Raj is an easy score on the post, as is Richard Jefferson.. Raj is easier of the two

I played D1 ball.. What did you play?? (crickets coming)

Btw, it would be a priviledge for you to play me, not the other way around.. You're just another delusional stiff that will get destroyed worse than he ever has before.. I've done it many, many times.. And I talk mad shit.. Good shit.. You'll want to forget the experience but it'll be seared into your brain.
You didn't play D1, stop lying.
I'm not going to talk shit on the internet. Just make a thread when you're on the East coast and we'll meet up and play.

[3ball]

You didn't play D1, stop lying.



Me playing D1


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/lFda0AxfcArChIEGArK2Hc0UXQHiEdGXU8dngIP2yBi5m8ES0L QvEnUspX_eBfzWCq1yPUu-1KYqhcc9jcnc9pxyOqpM3lv_Zn2GEp8IJr0dV-9DDi1IycJpzfR0-QvSE8bxEFNUTtPKrCk7GXiAunZlm6P13oPWSilE4vh2jstnh5b PRE1MM5r6AKd_qX6huUa9-TLvrvY9z1Ilpz0KeLFbsn2X-XgCmdDw20WQOudhJjECyPgdxuOjiDDs6jWro81IXUeNN2pnzJ3 FG9c4EmHNT55NVWX_-jWpis2oVH96QdhAwOliy-VoRhuvmGwlLxFcot1aSN7-P_P5KqsfgX2FjGkKuRnZjbEX47TwXTAC00yjQQkmJU-HD3p-dIqhLnZogoHRW0nrSmGapVo13OUfvwvpi_bl2hR1JNZpHkc4ZJ vs68iv_dn6Bpi0g68rwxVaLhawhr_ryz6H4BBPaHv7PHqVKsU-pB8N3Vw9kkVedTh9SF4nzRj2kLfxalnNUxrSLc080kTHztflDs e46V1LFT6thZp6iLr0WLG-h4W79As2AbB6uXGYBmlD88boA2SyLHrwACB_mk5EzwEfyYGOZM VzEE3BIrK7vYBnhiprDxE=w495-h662-no


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/aAItqFoqQdSBhQKnbN5vz-gO-EJVdtMPBf4yOKJPKmwVFLesNd_RWn_mlfFIHcBbtbUifybCBa6 rLf-LAvaDOUUs4wicvYEQDn-RYxEUzu_nIM3SwhgkX_fhe6JIQD9pCzD7reRHhoXLR4J-qe_UAQDVPyvB9qO_nSBp9eExiiZzjB66QI6lmTy9lr_VoVicfo D8ap9O-6ai-YREKANzBRMBl18OtH7RjXzvjFR4XaFWVOY09vmIkp5IwepcCo_ z4o-YJQt2bppaTGlT9NThHlLwvcxbph-f_RxEs52B7n6exBRneu1xeC5drxBx6SHipJnllOqQ4qUW3vQ0S-0KWOxJG11u27fow0dA-ypVq0Rejh3VuLupdVT0eNnhejlafFx7WCr6rGomSJ032W9nIkL WNwoQiCA2g6aW3yRP1bHNSuvnJqAkSFQ0XHfP4gB8Mx0JZCYt9 xvXvdgfods7GmFGb_plFc_17PFuMvu6QEDCP6wfiIal5Kihx7s kwzRyuvvq-AvwXzLYY5wydnsiqqiW9vYI0M3vUTj1s699qOshdVrSalC06qL ITg1c1BBVFhPbuyY4JNKozTKLpBx-OP1tPPDZL2mF2mzmZO_2TcHAqmI=w818-h613-no


Sorry to ruin your Saturday night
.

[Bankaii]

What college is that?

[aj1987]

the triangle is a shit system - just ask the knicks and the many other teams that have tried it and embarrassingly failed..
Pretty much why PJ is a GOAT coach and you're still a lying piece of shit.


I didn't realize that MJ played for coach Pop.

Are you telling me that the dude who coached MJ, Kobe, and Shaq hasn't done shit without them? Shocking!
Are you telling me that 1-9 was a career loser before PJ turned his chucking ass around? Shocking!

[3ball]

What college is that?
fiu, where raja bell and carlos arroyo played during the time that i played there

in the 2nd picture, that's carlos in the background looking up at me dunking

[3ball]

Pretty much why PJ is a GOAT coach and you're still a lying piece of shit.


Not only is the triangle a shit system because it only found success with goat post players (MJ, Shaq, Kobe/Pau), but MJ's teams were top 10 in assists in 1988 and 1989, BEFORE Phil got there.

So that kills your argument even if you imagine that other teams found success with the triangle (no other team did)





Are you telling me that 1-9 was a career loser before PJ turned his chucking ass around? Shocking!


Before Phil Jackson arrived, Jordan took the champion Pistons to 6 games in 1989 ECF, whereas Lebron lost to Dwight's Magic in 6 games (the Magic were nowhere NEAR champs like the Pistons were), then he lost to the old Celtics (also non-champs).

Jordan won after buying into the Phil's shit triangle offense (that failed everytime MJ, Shaq or Kobe/Pau WEREN'T running it)..... while Lebron won after team-hopping and stacking his team with 2 other superstars.

I prefer the former.. Tbh, phil simply continued the success that Collins had in 1988 and 1989 - Collins took the Pistons 5 games in 1989, 6 games in 1989, and then Phil took the Pistons 7 games in 1990.

[CuhGetsBucks]

Me playing D1


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/lFda0AxfcArChIEGArK2Hc0UXQHiEdGXU8dngIP2yBi5m8ES0L QvEnUspX_eBfzWCq1yPUu-1KYqhcc9jcnc9pxyOqpM3lv_Zn2GEp8IJr0dV-9DDi1IycJpzfR0-QvSE8bxEFNUTtPKrCk7GXiAunZlm6P13oPWSilE4vh2jstnh5b PRE1MM5r6AKd_qX6huUa9-TLvrvY9z1Ilpz0KeLFbsn2X-XgCmdDw20WQOudhJjECyPgdxuOjiDDs6jWro81IXUeNN2pnzJ3 FG9c4EmHNT55NVWX_-jWpis2oVH96QdhAwOliy-VoRhuvmGwlLxFcot1aSN7-P_P5KqsfgX2FjGkKuRnZjbEX47TwXTAC00yjQQkmJU-HD3p-dIqhLnZogoHRW0nrSmGapVo13OUfvwvpi_bl2hR1JNZpHkc4ZJ vs68iv_dn6Bpi0g68rwxVaLhawhr_ryz6H4BBPaHv7PHqVKsU-pB8N3Vw9kkVedTh9SF4nzRj2kLfxalnNUxrSLc080kTHztflDs e46V1LFT6thZp6iLr0WLG-h4W79As2AbB6uXGYBmlD88boA2SyLHrwACB_mk5EzwEfyYGOZM VzEE3BIrK7vYBnhiprDxE=w495-h662-no


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/aAItqFoqQdSBhQKnbN5vz-gO-EJVdtMPBf4yOKJPKmwVFLesNd_RWn_mlfFIHcBbtbUifybCBa6 rLf-LAvaDOUUs4wicvYEQDn-RYxEUzu_nIM3SwhgkX_fhe6JIQD9pCzD7reRHhoXLR4J-qe_UAQDVPyvB9qO_nSBp9eExiiZzjB66QI6lmTy9lr_VoVicfo D8ap9O-6ai-YREKANzBRMBl18OtH7RjXzvjFR4XaFWVOY09vmIkp5IwepcCo_ z4o-YJQt2bppaTGlT9NThHlLwvcxbph-f_RxEs52B7n6exBRneu1xeC5drxBx6SHipJnllOqQ4qUW3vQ0S-0KWOxJG11u27fow0dA-ypVq0Rejh3VuLupdVT0eNnhejlafFx7WCr6rGomSJ032W9nIkL WNwoQiCA2g6aW3yRP1bHNSuvnJqAkSFQ0XHfP4gB8Mx0JZCYt9 xvXvdgfods7GmFGb_plFc_17PFuMvu6QEDCP6wfiIal5Kihx7s kwzRyuvvq-AvwXzLYY5wydnsiqqiW9vYI0M3vUTj1s699qOshdVrSalC06qL ITg1c1BBVFhPbuyY4JNKozTKLpBx-OP1tPPDZL2mF2mzmZO_2TcHAqmI=w818-h613-no


Sorry to ruin your Saturday night
.
Damn this is cool, what'd you do after your career?

[3ball]

Damn this is cool, what'd you do after your career?
senior financial analyst in m & a finance (investment bank)

managed large portfolio of corporate leases for fortune 100 companies

owned and ran small business

scored in 75th percentile on gmat with zero hours of study besides taking the test twice, went on to business school

crushed fools, ignoramuses, and small-minded lames all over the country and world

family man

[AirBonner]

Damn this is cool, what'd you do after your career?
:lol He created the greatest argument to support Ordan in all basketball related topics. Literally no life after his career.

[aj1987]

Not only is the triangle a shit system because it only found success with goat post players (MJ, Shaq, Kobe/Pau), but MJ's teams were top 10 in assists in 1988 and 1989, BEFORE Phil got there.

So that kills your argument even if you imagine that other teams found success with the triangle (no other team did)



Before Phil Jackson arrived, Jordan took the champion Pistons to 6 games in 1989 ECF, whereas Lebron lost to Dwight's Magic in 6 games (the Magic were nowhere NEAR champs like the Pistons were), then he lost to the old Celtics (also non-champs).

Jordan won after buying into the Phil's shit triangle offense (that failed everytime MJ, Shaq or Kobe/Pau WEREN'T running it)..... while Lebron won after team-hopping and stacking his team with 2 other superstars.

I prefer the former.. Tbh, phil simply continued the success that Collins had in 1988 and 1989 - Collins took the Pistons 5 games in 1989, 6 games in 1989, and then Phil took the Pistons 7 games in 1990.
tl;dr - You're a lying retarded shit who knows jackshit about basketball.


senior financial analyst in m & a finance (investment bank)

managed large portfolio of corporate leases for fortune 100 companies

owned and ran small business

scored in 75th percentile on gmat with zero hours of study besides taking the test twice, went on to business school

crushed fools, ignoramuses, and small-minded lames all over the country and world

family man
And yet, you post 14 times a day solely about LeBron on this one account. Even worse is the FACT that all your arguments are cherrypicked and retarded AF.

[KiiiiNG]

lol, I knew 3ball was a bitter 40 year old rec player. That's hilarious. :lol

Just as goofy as I imagined. Dude moves like Brook Lopez out there. Trying to imitate Jordan.... haha. That's sad though how bad his shot looks... you can tell he never had a good one even when he wasn't as terrible athletically as he is now.

And that's not even rec league basketball. That's just some random outside court with a bunch of random dudes from the street. :oldlol:

3ball is what Brook Lopez would look like if he tried to be a guard.

[3ball]

lol, I knew 3ball was a bitter 40 year old rec player. That's hilarious. :lol

Just as goofy as I imagined. Dude moves like Brook Lopez out there. Trying to imitate Jordan.... haha. That's sad though how bad his shot looks... you can tell he never had a good one even when he wasn't as terrible athletically as he is now.

And that's not even rec league basketball. That's just some random outside court with a bunch of random dudes from the street. :oldlol:

3ball is what Brook Lopez would look like if he tried to be a guard.


i'd like to see westbrook zip coast to coast in flip-flops without both of them flying off his feet.. or better yet - i'd like to see an NBA game where everyone wore flip-flops... lol.......... and where everyone was 40+... let's see the comments on this board after THAT game

btw, i appreciate the brook lopez comparison, especially considering i was in flip-flops.. brook is/was super nice, so thx

you guys obviously never played ball if you think playing in flip-flops is even remotely close to playing in Nike's with taped ankles.. and those weren't the best moves i did that night.. that was just the 72 seconds that my wife got on tape.. domination while barely trying.. i could've posted them up every play and shot 100% efficiency but i decided to have some fun and make it interesting by doing moves
.

[fourkicks44]

lol, I knew 3ball was a bitter 40 year old rec player. That's hilarious. :lol

Just as goofy as I imagined. Dude moves like Brook Lopez out there. Trying to imitate Jordan.... haha. That's sad though how bad his shot looks... you can tell he never had a good one even when he wasn't as terrible athletically as he is now.

And that's not even rec league basketball. That's just some random outside court with a bunch of random dudes from the street. :oldlol:

3ball is what Brook Lopez would look like if he tried to be a guard.

3ball got you boys shook.......again :oldlol:

[KiiiiNG]

i'd like to see westbrook zip coast to coast in flip-flops without both of them flying off his feet.. or better yet - i'd like to see an NBA game where everyone wore flip-flops... lol.......... and where everyone was 40+... let's see the comments on this board after THAT game

let's see how brook lopez does when he's 40 and in flip-flops

you guys obviously never played ball if you think playing in flip-flops is even remotely close to playing in Nike's with taped ankles.. and those weren't even the best moves i did.. that was just the 72 seconds that my wife got on tape.. complete domination while barely trying.. i could've posted them up every play and shot 100% efficiency but i decided to have some fun and make it interesting by doing moves
Bro you don't need to make excuses... we saw what we needed to see. You lack overall fluidity... your movement is very amateurish

It's true you're keen on mimicking moves and naturally through years of playing you have an average skill-set to pull off incredibly slowed down versions of your favorite players hesitation oriented fadeaways, but in no way, shape, or form is your movement impressive. And honestly bro I would expect your handle to be much tighter. That and your uncoordinated jump-shot are dead giveaways that your skill levels aren't what you think they are. Maybe as you're playing you feel like a God against less than average competition, but it doesn't translate well on tape.

The only thing impressive is your size. I will give you that. Size and 30+ years of playing ball makes you an above average pick-up player, so congratulations

I will be posting videos of me dunking and playing very soon.

[fourkicks44]

Bro you don't need to make excuses... we saw what we needed to see. You lack overall fluidity... your movement is very amateurish

It's true you're keen on mimicking moves and naturally through years of playing you have an average skill-set to pull off incredibly slowed down versions of your favorite players hesitation oriented fadeaways, but in no way, shape, or form is your movement impressive. And honestly bro I would expect your handle to be much tighter. That and your uncoordinated jump-shot are dead giveaways that your skill levels aren't what you think they are. Maybe as you're playing you feel like a God against less than average competition, but it doesn't translate well on tape.

The only thing impressive is your size. I will give you that. Size and 30+ years of playing ball makes you an above average pick-up player, so congratulations

I will be posting videos of me dunking and playing very soon.

More shook than I thought :roll:

[aj1987]

i'd like to see westbrook zip coast to coast in flip-flops without both of them flying off his feet.. or better yet - i'd like to see an NBA game where everyone wore flip-flops... lol.......... and where everyone was 40+... let's see the comments on this board after THAT game

btw, i appreciate the brook lopez comparison, especially considering i was in flip-flops.. brook is/was super nice, so thx

you guys obviously never played ball if you think playing in flip-flops is even remotely close to playing in Nike's with taped ankles.. and those weren't the best moves i did that night.. that was just the 72 seconds that my wife got on tape.. domination while barely trying.. i could've posted them up every play and shot 100% efficiency but i decided to have some fun and make it interesting by doing moves
.
How ****ing delusional are you, dude? Lets just ignore the fact that you know pretty much nothing about basketball for a minute. Do you seriously want us to believe someone who's as obsessed as you are with LeBron (let alone ****ing MJ) actually has a life outside?

Found a picture of your "wife", btw:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c8/56/0f/c8560fa9fc4b42d83f1e31bbd48e4660.jpg

[Gatorade Sax]

laugh if this was just 3ball and his boys...27 takes til he actually makes the shot, no wonder the d was non existent. Then I realised 3ball probably hasn't got this many friends.

Kudos for putting something out there though.

[3ball]

laugh if this was just 3ball and his boys...27 takes til he actually makes the shot, no wonder the d was non existent. Then I realised 3ball probably hasn't got this many friends.

Kudos for putting something out there though.


i never met those guys before that night, and i'll probably never see any of them ever again.

but i realize now that my 3 highlights just wet your beak and left you guys wanting more.. my bad

next time i'll wear shoes so you can see me dunk on guys, and i'll post longer highlights so you can see many more MOVES (which i know you guys aren't accustomed to seeing at the 2 thru 5 positions in today's 3-and-D game that is mainly drive-and-kick for spot-up shooting).

then i'll be interested to hear the critiques.. btw, i'll also post a dunk that dr. j never did in his entire career - but it will be an ode TO dr. j that will clearly demonstrate he'd be a top 2 all-time player if he played today.

[3ball]

Are you telling me that MJ was 1-9 before PJ turned his chucking ass around? Shocking!


Jordan won rings after buying into the Phil's triangle offense.. Otoh, Lebron won after team-hopping and stacking his team with 2 other superstars.

I prefer the former, especially considering the triangle is actually a shit offense that could only succeed with a top 10 all-time player who was a goat post presence.. It's failed embarrassingly in every other scenario, so it's FAILED to win rings far more than it succeeded - see the current Knicks for it's latest embarrassment.





MJ's teams had more assists because PJ is a GOAT coach with goat system


MJ's teams were top 10 in assists in 1988 and 1989, BEFORE Phil got there - so that kills your argument.

And again - the triangle is a shit offense, since it could only succeed with a top 10 all-time player who was a goat post presence.. Every other team has failed embarrassingly with the triangle, so it's FAILED to win rings far more than it succeeded - see the current knicks for it's latest embarrassing failure.

Tbh, phil simply continued the success that Collins had in 1988 and 1989 - Collins took the Pistons 5 games in 1989, 6 games in 1989, and then Phil took the Pistons 7 games in 1990.

[AirBonner]

Lebron won 2 rings with two average/subpar coaches. GOAT

[Hey Yo]

.
Bulls 1985:. 20th...................................... Cavs 2004:. 8th
Bulls 1986:. 19th...................................... Cavs 2005:. 6th
Bulls 1987:. 12th...................................... Cavs 2006:. 24th
Bulls 1988:. 9th....................................... Cavs 2007:. 15th
Bulls 1989:. 6th....................................... Cavs 2008:. 25th
Bulls 1990:. 7th....................................... Cavs 2009:. 20th
Bulls 1991:. 4th....................................... Cavs 2010:. 6th
Bulls 1992:. 3rd....................................... Heat 2011:. 26th
Bulls 1993:. 6th....................................... Heat 2012:. 21st
Bulls 1996:. 5th....................................... Heat 2013:. 7th
Bulls 1997:. 2nd...................................... Heat 2014:. 11th
Bulls 1998:. 7th....................................... Cavs 2015:. 10th
.................................................. ......... Cavs 2016:.. 13th
__________________________..................______ _____________________
7.7 average rank for MJ's teams..... 14.8 average rank for Lebron's teams


Conclusion:
There were less teams in the league early in MJ's career. Then 6 expansion teams were added by the time MJ was out of the league a 2nd time in 1998.....

Of course the advantge will favor MJ and the Bulls in this situation. And of course MJ playing with Pippen and Grant for the first 6yr of their careers favors MJ. Then add the same system and coach for those 6yrs plus Pippen and Phil again for the last 3peat


another dumb thread.

[3ball]

plus Pippen and Phil again for the last 3peat


The Bulls were top 5 in assists during the 2nd three-peat, even though they were playing 4 on 5 offensively with a 3 ppg power forward (Rodman)..

And PF is the most assisted position on the floor, yet the Bulls got nothing from that position.. They offset the hole at PF by having the NBA's leading scorer, who got his points OFF-BALL as a highly assisted player - Jordan was a reservoir of assists that increased everyone's assists.

Otoh, it's statistical fact that Lebron's ball-dominance reduces the assists of teammates and therefore the team's overall teamwork - this explains why his teams rank so low in assists.. It's plain as day and statistical fact.





And of course MJ playing with Pippen and Grant for the first 6yr of their careers favors MJ.


How does that favor MJ?.. In 1988, Pippen and Grant barely played and were 7 ppg bench players, but the Bulls were still 9th in assists.. Then they were 6th in 1989 when Grant and Pippen were still AIDS.. This was all under Doug Collins.

Also, Lebron played with playmakers Mo Williams (5.8 career APG before joining Lebron, which is more than Pippen), Wade (6.6 career APG before joining Lebron) and now Kyrie (5.8 career APG before Lebron).

Given these playmakers, if Lebron played off-ball, his teams would probably lead the league in assists.. But instead, Lebron plays PG, thus stepping on their toes and reducing their APG.





There were less teams in the league early in MJ's career. Then 6 expansion teams were added by the time MJ was out of the league a 2nd time in 1998.....


There were 27 teams from 1990 to 1993 (compared to today's 30), and 29 teams from 1996 to 1998 (compared to today's 30).

These differences mean nothing because if you add 3 to the Bulls' rankings from 90' to 93', and 1 to the Bulls' ranking in 96' to 98', the Bulls are still top 10 in assists.. And that's taking the most conservative stance that 3 additional teams would bump the Bulls down 3 spots.. :oldlol: .. but nice try tho.. your post was the first substantive counter-argument itt.. :applause:

[AirBonner]

Basically this thread just proves Jordan played with BETTER teammates. We all knew that. :rolleyes:

[3ball]

Lebron won 2 rings with two average/subpar coaches. GOAT


Jordan won rings after buying into the Phil's triangle offense.. Otoh, Lebron won after team-hopping and stacking his team with 2 other superstars.

I prefer the former, especially considering the triangle is actually a shit offense that could only succeed with a top 10 all-time player who was a goat post presence.. It's failed embarrassingly in every other scenario, so it's FAILED far more than it succeeded - see the current Knicks for it's latest embarrassment.

Furthermore, MJ's teams were top 10 in assists in 1988 and 1989, BEFORE Phil got there - so that kills your argument.. Tbh, phil simply continued the success that Collins had in 1988 and 1989 - Collins took the Pistons 5 games in 1989, 6 games in 1989, and then Phil took the Pistons 7 games in 1990.

[3ball]

Basically this thread just proves Jordan played with BETTER teammates. We all knew that. :rolleyes:


I'd like to hear your explanation for why Jordan's first 3 rings required him to score 25% more in the playoffs than Lebron did for his 3 rings, with equal assists and better efficiency (ts, fg, ortg, PER).. (stats shown here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12679667&postcount=37))

I'd also like to hear your explanation as to why 1989 Jordan achieved the same stats as 2009 Lebron, but won 19 less games?

This 19-win gap can't ONLY be due to Lebron's weaker conference.. It must be due to superior supporting cast as well (an all-star guard, former all-star center, and far better role players... compared to... NOTHING for Jordan).

[3ball]

You're dribbling is high and uncontrolled



You simply can't recognize the gather-step because I went behind the back first - guys don't normally do gather steps after going behind the back:


https://media.giphy.com/media/2E1qLawmjo3Kw/giphy.gif


That's next level dribbling that most guys aren't doing yet.. Maybe Dennis Smith and a couple others.. Nash did it once here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuPKycBMD4c&t=0m8s).

[Marchesk]

That's next level dribbling that most guys aren't doing yet.. Maybe Dennis Smith and a couple others.. Nash did it once here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuPKycBMD4c&t=0m8s).

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

:roll: :roll: :roll:
I should also mention that while dennis smith and steve nash DID DO behind-the-back crossovers with gather-steps, they're barely 6 feet, while I'm 6'7"..

and they rarely do the move, or do it by accident, whereas that's my go-to move that I actually do off a double crossover most of the time (thru the legs first, then behind the back, gather-step layup)..

I'll post vid with all this soon.. in case you're wondering, most guys use a wrap-around crossover when going behind the back (not a straight-line crossover like they do when crossing over in front), and they take AN EXTRA DRIBBLE, not a gather step.
.

[Marchesk]

I should also mention that while dennis smith and old steve nash DID do behind-the-back crossovers with gather-steps, they're barely 6 feet, while I'm 6'7"

Would you be able to pull that off if Lebron was guarding you?

[3ball]

Would you be able to pull that off if Lebron was guarding you?


of course, even at 40 years old like i am now

when the footwork is done correctly (including the setup footwork), it doesn't matter how quick the guy is.

and tbh, that guy guarding me was a quick 5'11" guy, probably quicker in that stance than Lebron albiet with a much narrower body and base, so i would need to crossover two 5'11" guys at the same time to equal Lebron, lol.. but very doable... i beat that guy by a mile going slow as hell in flip-flops

[Prometheus]

of course, even at 40 years old like i am now

when the footwork is done correctly (including the setup footwork), it doesn't matter how quick the guy is.

and tbh, that guy guarding me was a quick 5'11" guy, probably quicker in that stance than Lebron albiet with a much narrower body and base, so i would need to crossover two 5'11" guys at the same time to equal Lebron, lol.. but very doable... i beat that guy by a mile going slow as hell in flip-flops

This f*cking delusional asshole :oldlol:

"Yeah i could pull that off with lebron guarding me"

Good lord :facepalm

[3ball]

This f*cking delusional asshole :oldlol:

"Yeah i could pull that off with lebron guarding me"

Good lord :facepalm
It's true

You just don't understand basketball, because you've never been a player, only a dumb fan

Players get the step on Lebron all the time.. It's called basketball..

To say that I couldn't get the step on Lebron is YOU being delusional.. :facepalm

[Marchesk]

Players get the step on Lebron all the time.. It's called basketball

You mean NBA guys, the top 0.001% of players in the entire world

[3ball]

You mean NBA guys, the top 0.001% of players in the entire world


You act like I dunked on the guy in the gif - all I did was get the step on the guy

And indeed - Non-NBA players are capable of getting the step on NBA players..

And that's what I could do to Lebron - nothing more, nothing less..

again, you guys are just dumb, delusional fans that don't really know shit about the game

[egokiller]

You act like I dunked on the guy in the gif - all I did was get the step on the guy

And indeed - Non-NBA players are capable of getting the step on NBA players..

And that's what I could do to Lebron - nothing more, nothing less..

again, you guys are just dumb, delusional fans that don't really know shit about the game

I don't understand how people can post on this website and not have a clue as to how the ball is going to bounce at a certain height when you are in a standing position dribbling behind your back as opposed to the ball coming up at a lower height that will only occur on when your knees are bent. Sometimes I bend my knees and dribble low behind the back, but in a game of 31 with scrubs there's no reason for you to. :lol

[aj1987]

You act like I dunked on the guy in the gif - all I did was get the step on the guy

And indeed - Non-NBA players are capable of getting the step on NBA players..

And that's what I could do to Lebron - nothing more, nothing less..

again, you guys are just dumb, delusional fans that don't really know shit about the game
You think you can score on LeBron at will and you're calling others delusional? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Kill yourself. Literally. Anyone as retarded and messed up in the head as you doesn't need to live.

[egokiller]

You think you can score on LeBron at will and you're calling others delusional? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Kill yourself. Literally. Anyone as retarded and messed up in the head as you doesn't need to live.

And yet he has you melting down over it. :roll:

Where did he say that he could "score at will" on Lebron? He said he could "get the step" on him.

[3ball]

You think you can score on LeBron at will and you're calling others delusional? :roll:


First of all, see this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B7U74Dg04k&t=0m45s


Secondly, I never said I could score on Lebron at will - you fabricated that and lied about what I said.

I was asked whether I could "get the step" on Lebron.. Of course I could.. Non-NBA players are capable of getting the step on NBA players.. It isn't rocket science or amazing or anything - it's called basketball.. You should pick one up sometime.. :rolleyes:

I used to blow by Raja Bell on sheer athleticism (no handle).. Now that I've acquired an elite handle capable of virtually any move you see done by NBA point guards (and more, including the behind-the-back, gather-step shown in the previous gif), you're goddamm right I can get the step on Lebron.





Kill yourself. Literally. Anyone as retarded and messed up in the head as you doesn't need to live.


Rent free.. :roll: :dancin :hammertime: :yaohappy:

[tpols]

First of all, see this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B7U74Dg04k&t=0m45s




the best part of that video was wayans roasting Jordan at the end. Shit had me rolling.

[egokiller]

Secondly, I never said I could score on Lebron at will - you fabricated that and lied about what I said.

I was asked whether I could "get the step" on Lebron.

I just said this. :roll: Glad I'm not the only one that can see past AJ's bullshit. Everytime these stat nerds come on here trying to argue Lebron over Jordan they leave empty handed with nothing to show for it.

[3ball]

.
Lebron lowered the APG (playmaking) of every key teammate, and increased their assisted rate (play-finishing):



................................................AP G, ASSIST %...... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)..................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
Irving with... Lebron.. (15'-16'):.. 5.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 25.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 10.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced) ...................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)




So his teams always rank low in APG:


Cavs 2004:. 8th
Cavs 2005:. 6th
Cavs 2006:. 24th
Cavs 2007:. 15th
Cavs 2008:. 25th
Cavs 2009:. 20th
Cavs 2010:. 6th
Heat 2011:. 26th
Heat 2012:. 21st
Heat 2013:. 7th
Heat 2014:. 11th
Cavs 2015:. 10th
Cavs 2016:. 13th
___________________________
14.8 average rank for Lebron's teams




CONCLUSION: By reducing his team's APG and teamwork, Lebron needs excessive supporting talent to win (aka team-hopping).. :confusedshrug:

And by reducing his team's APG and teamwork, he invariably loses to teams with SUPERIOR teamwork (see 2011 Mavs and 2014 Spurs, who won via superior teamwork, not talent)
.

[3ball]

had to post that just for the record

[KobesFinger]

You're still doing this?

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

[aj1987]

First of all, see this video:

Secondly, I never said I could score on Lebron at will - you fabricated that and lied about what I said.

I was asked whether I could "get the step" on Lebron.. Of course I could.. Non-NBA players are capable of getting the step on NBA players.. It isn't rocket science or amazing or anything - it's called basketball.. You should pick one up sometime.. :rolleyes:

I used to blow by Raja Bell on sheer athleticism (no handle).. Now that I've acquired an elite handle capable of virtually any move you see done by NBA point guards (and more, including the behind-the-back, gather-step shown in the previous gif), you're goddamm right I can get the step on Lebron.
Yeah, ok, 0ball. You've obviously never stepped away from a computer in your life and you've obviously never touched a basketball either. Keep living that delusional life though. If that really is you in the gif.... wow! Just wow! Anyone that garbage should never be allowed to touch a basketball in the first place.

I'll just leave this here:

Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.

[TheCorporation]

I'd beat you in flip-flops with one arm or maybe even on all jumpshots, depending on how offensively competent you are.

If Raja Bell, Richard Jefferson, Anthony Parker, John Salmons, Luke Walton, Richard Jefferson, and Zach Randolph couldn't hold me on the post, what are you going to do?

I remember Richard Jefferson was trying to guard me on the post and I was dropping him off, before his boy Walton had to tell him to step up his game.. Then I saw Jordan drop Jefferson for 40 at 40, and honestly, my experience with Rich took a little shine of Jordan's performance.. real talk... same thing when Kobe used to drop off Raj.. I was like, yeah, that's nothing, really.. tbh, kobe had to work harder to score on the post vs Raj than i did/would.. i can meet you in la or vegas.. or next time i'm in fl

:roll::roll: Oh Andrew