Team assist rankings for Bird and Lebron's teams

[3ball]

.
Celts 1980:. 8th...................................... Cavs 2004:. 8th
Celts 1981:. 7th...................................... Cavs 2005:. 6th
Celts 1982:. 7th...................................... Cavs 2006:. 24th
Celts 1983:. 7th...................................... Cavs 2007:. 15th
Celts 1984:. 14th..................................... Cavs 2008:. 25th
Celts 1985:. 6th....................................... Cavs 2009:. 20th
Celts 1986:. 2th....................................... Cavs 2010:. 6th
Celts 1987:. 2nd....................................... Heat 2011:. 26th
Celts 1988:. 1st....................................... Heat 2012:. 21st
Celts 1989:. 9th....................................... Heat 2013:. 7th
Celts 1990:. 1st........................................ Heat 2014:. 11th
Celts 1991:. 8th....................................... Cavs 2015:. 10th
Celts 1992:. 9th....................................... Cavs 2016:.. 13th
__________________________..................______ _____________________
6.2 average rank for Bird's teams... 14.8 average rank for Lebron's teams


Conclusion: Lebron's teams ranked in the top 10 only 4 of 13 seasons, while Bird's teams were in the top 10 for 12 of 13 seasons.. This is significant, since championship teams are nearly always ranked among the top 10 in assists.

And we know WHY Lebron's teams rank so poorly at passing.. It's statistical fact that every key teammate that Lebron had during his career saw their APG and assist percentage lowered (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12606535&postcount=10) alongside him, while their assisted rate (play-finishing) increased - he turns teammates into play-finishers, rather than allowing them to retain their maximum playmaking capability.

To offset his reduction of teammate stats (APG and PPG), Lebron must rely on excessive supporting talent (team-hopping).. Furthermore, the lack of passing and chemistry results in a brand of basketball that usually can't succeed at the highest level (3/7), which again, necessitates extra supporting talent to win (team-hopping).

Otoh, Bird's teammates saw their assists INCREASE alongside him, mainly because Bird played OFF-BALL, and therefore was an assist reservoir for teammates that was worth up to 30 ppg worth of assists (Bird's peak PPG)..

Ultimately, Bird's off-ball style resulted in superior passing and brand of basketball that could consistently succeed with winning records at the highest level (3/5 in Finals, with the only 2 losses to goat team Lakers, toughest era ever).. The superior brand of basketball that Bird's game enabled meant that he didn't need excessive supporting talent to win (he never team-hopped, compared to Lebron team-hopping to stack the deck TWICE).

[ClipperRevival]

3ball has to be some computer generated program built to annoy the hell out of LeBron fans. :oldlol:

[AussieSteve]

Ultimately, Bird's off-ball style resulted in superior passing and brand of basketball that could consistently succeed with winning records at the highest level (3/5 in Finals, with the only 2 losses to goat team Lakers, toughest era ever).. The superior brand of basketball that Bird's game enabled meant that he didn't need excessive supporting talent to win (he never team-hopped, compared to Lebron team-hopping to stack the deck TWICE).

Have you looked at the Celtics rosters from those championship years? Possibly the most talented of all time!! Bird was one of the greatest to ever do it no doubt, but he had a GOAT supporting cast!!

Also... This thread is stupid.

[aj1987]

Is there some magical way in which players get to keep their stats with a role and minute reduction? Does they magically get a dozen extra possessions to compensate the role/minute reduction, just so they can hit their regular stats?


Have you looked at the Celtics rosters from those championship years? Possibly the most talented of all time!! Bird was one of the greatest to ever do it no doubt, but he had a GOAT supporting cast!!

Also... This thread is stupid.
This as well.

[3ball]

Have you looked at the Celtics rosters from those championship years? Possibly the most talented of all time!! Bird was one of the greatest to ever do it no doubt, but he had a GOAT supporting cast!!

Also... This thread is stupid.
You guys dont get it - lebron lowers the apg and ppg of his key teammates, while bird/jordan did not.

This is statistical fact, as the link in the op shows.

Considering every key teammate that lebron EVER had saw their apg decline alongside him, you shouldnt be surprised that his teams have low assist rankings.

Otoh, bird and jordan's teammates saw their apg increase alongside them, so its no surprise that their teams ranked high in assists.

[ralph_i_el]

You guys dont get it - lebron lowers the apg and ppg of his key teammates, while bird/jordan did not.



You're looking at LeBron's teammates that had larger roles before playing with him. Duh they will have higher stats.

Meanwhile you look at Jordan's teammates that either played with him most of their career, or whose only job was to pass MJ the ball

:facepalm

context is everything

[aj1987]

You guys dont get it - lebron lowers the apg and ppg of his key teammates, while bird/jordan did not.

This is statistical fact, as the link in the op shows.

Considering every key teammate that lebron EVER had saw their apg decline alongside him, you shouldnt be surprised that his teams have low assist rankings.

Otoh, bird and jordan's teammates saw their apg increase alongside them, so its no surprise that their teams ranked high in assists.
I don't have the time or energy to do it for everyone, but Grant averaged career highs after MJ retired. Career highs in PPG, APG, and RPG.

This is a statistical FACT. MJ lowers his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.

[AirBonner]

I don't have the time or energy to do it for everyone, but Grant averaged career highs after MJ retired. Career highs in PPG, APG, and RPG.

This is a statistical FACT. MJ lowers his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.

https://media.giphy.com/media/aX1KKhrqzEnQs/giphy.gif

[plowking]

Yeah, your stats suck. Because the Bron led Heat teams broke records for most passes in a season. Which was later broken by the Spurs the next year.

So ball movement has never been a problem on Bron teams. Also goes to show that teams play better team basketball now more so than ever.

[3ball]

I don't have the time or energy to do it for everyone, but Grant averaged career highs after MJ retired. Career highs in PPG, APG, and RPG.

This is a statistical FACT. MJ lowers his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.


Grant's highs alongside Jordan are nearly the same as 1994, while Bosh and Love's stats CRATERED alongside Lebron - there's no comparison:



Grant 1992:. 14/10
Grant 1994:. 15/11

Love. 2014vI:. 26/13
Love 15 & 16:. 16/10

Bosh. 2010.:. 24/11
Bosh 11-14':. 17/7


Sources:

Love 2015 & 2016 stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game
Bosh 2011 - 2014 stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game

[3ball]

Yeah, your stats suck


Team APG aren't "my stats"... They're the NBA's stats - it's just team APG... Pretty simple...

And Lebron's teams always rank low in this area, because he lowered the APG of every key teammate he's ever had.. By reducing his team's APG and teamwork, he needs excessive supporting talent to win (team-hopping).. It's pretty simple.





Because the Bron led Heat teams broke records for most passes in a season.


Nonsense - the Heat ranked 26th, 21st, 7th, and 11th in assists from 2011-2014.

So quit lying.. the stats are what they are..

Lebron's teams always rank low in APG, because he lowered the APG of every key teammate he's ever had.. By reducing his team's APG and teamwork, he needs excessive supporting talent to win (team-hopping).. It's pretty simple.

[NBAGOAT]

Team APG aren't "my stats"... They're the NBA's stats - it's just team APG... Pretty simple...

And Lebron's teams always rank low in this area, because he lowered the APG of every key teammate he's ever had.. By reducing his team's APG and teamwork, he needs excessive supporting talent to win (team-hopping).. It's pretty simple.



Nonsense - the Heat ranked 26th, 21st, 7th, and 11th in assists from 2011-2014.

So quit lying.. the stats are what they are..

Lebron's teams always rank low in APG, because he lowered the APG of every key teammate he's ever had.. By reducing his team's APG and teamwork, he needs excessive supporting talent to win (team-hopping).. It's pretty simple.

two different stats buddy. Assists are the final pass on a successful possession. Passes include every pass made during a possession including something even as simple as swinging the ball. They give a good idea of how much a team actually moves the ball and they're what plowking is talking about. Also you have no business accusing people of lying when you lie everyday on here.

[aj1987]

Grant's highs alongside Jordan are nearly the same as 1994, while Bosh and Love's stats CRATERED alongside Lebron - there's no comparison:



Grant 1992:. 14/10
Grant 1994:. 15/11

Love. 2014vI:. 26/13
Love 15 & 16:. 16/10

Bosh. 2010.:. 24/11
Bosh 11-14':. 17/7


Sources:

Love 2015 & 2016 stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game
Bosh 2011 - 2014 stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game
You're comparing one single PEAK season to multiple seasons? FOH, you retarded turd.

Lets do it your way.

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I could keep going all day, 0ball.

[3ball]

Also you have no business accusing people of lying when you lie everyday on here.


It's funny how people accuse me of lying, but no one has EVER pointed out one of my "lies".

So go ahead - what specifically, have i ever lied about in this forum? (crickets coming..)

[3ball]

dumbasses itt

[MrFonzworth]

You're comparing one single PEAK season to multiple seasons? FOH, you retarded turd.

Lets do it your way.

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I could keep going all day, 0ball.

Slaughtered.

[Dray n Klay]

3ball, what are Kevin Love and Kyrie's stats this season?

[AirBonner]

It's funny how people accuse me of lying, but no one has EVER pointed out one of my "lies".

So go ahead - what specifically, have i ever lied about in this forum? (crickets coming..)
fudging stats and not comparing similar data to further your agenda. There is nothing to prove when that is ALL you have ever done.

[3ball]

fudging stats and not comparing similar data to further your agenda. There is nothing to prove when that is ALL you have ever done.
again, get specific, or stfu

[3ball]

You're comparing one single PEAK season to multiple seasons? FOH, you retarded turd.

Lets do it your way.

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3


Not exactly.. I compared Bosh and Love's peak season to their tenure with Lebron, and I compared Grant's peak season to his only season without Jordan.

So it's apples to apples..

Otoh, your stats show Grant, BJ and Kukoc from their rookie seasons, when guys like Grant and BJ averaged 7 ppg and 5 ppg, respectively.

Nice try, but your analysis just shows that you aren't capable of discerning or comparing apples to apples - you must've done HORRIBLY on standardized testing.. :oldlol: :roll: ... I'll excuse it if ur from low income family.

[3ball]

.
Lebron lowers his teammates' APG (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing):



................................................AP G, ASSIST %...... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)..................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
Irving with... Lebron.. (15'-16'):.. 5.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 25.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 10.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced) ...................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)


FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)



These stats prove that Lebron achieves his stats by reducing his teammates' stats and role.. His reduction of teammates' stats causes him team-hop and seek excessive supporting talent that can overcome the reduction.

Let's look at the real-life example: Kobe won 2 rings with Pau as 2nd option, whereas Lebron reduced All-NBA Love and 24/11 Bosh into weak 3rd options, and needed a perimeter stud (Wade/Kyrie) to be 2nd option - Lebron simply needed more help to overcome the reduction of his PF, whereas Kobe did not.

Furthermore, the question becomes WHY does Lebron reduce his teammates stats, specifically turn them from playmakers into play-finishers?.. The answer is simple: he employs a point guard style from the forward position - this adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player IN ADDITION to the existing point guard, which gives teammates less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.

Unfortunately, by reducing teammates to play-finishers, Lebron promotes a sophomoric brand of basketball that can't succeed against the best playoff teams, who invariably play a superior brand of basketball.. Guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw are tasked with MAKING PLAYS for the Spurs - they aren't just play-finishers like Shumpert and JR Smith (who are actually more talented).

[aj1987]

Not exactly.. I compared Bosh and Love's peak season to their tenure with Lebron, and I compared Grant's peak season to his only season without Jordan.

So it's apples to apples..

Otoh, your stats show Grant, BJ and Kukoc from their rookie seasons, when guys like Grant and BJ averaged 7 ppg and 5 ppg, respectively.

Nice try, but your analysis just shows that you aren't capable of discerning or comparing apples to apples - you must've done HORRIBLY on standardized testing.. :oldlol: :roll: ... I'll excuse it if ur from low income family.
Now you want to apply context to the walls of stats you post, retard? :oldlol:

I'll repost it. Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.

[3ball]

Now you want to apply context to the walls of stats you post, retard? :oldlol:

I'll repost it. Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.


I compared Bosh and Love's peak season to their tenure with Lebron, and I compared Grant's peak season to his only season without Jordan.

So it's apples to apples..

Otoh, your stats show Grant, BJ and Kukoc from their rookie seasons, when guys like Grant and BJ averaged 7 ppg and 5 ppg, respectively.

Nice try, but your analysis just shows that you aren't capable of discerning or comparing apples to apples - you must've done HORRIBLY on standardized testing.. ... I'll excuse it if ur from low income family.

btw, harper averaged 6.9 ppg in 1995 before Jordan returned for the final 17 games, and then 7.4 in 1996 when Jordan was there for a full season.. Also, Kukoc moved into Scottie's slot in the triangle in 1999, which is an automatic 18/5.. That's just how the position works, and that's part of the reason Pippen is grossly overrated.. Just ask Isiah, Laimbeer, or anyone that played against the Bulls - the entire focus was on Jordan, who was the biggest focal point EVER of defenses

[Dray n Klay]

3ball, what are Kevin Love and Kyrie's stats this season?


....

[3ball]

....
Kyrie's assists are WAAAY down and not surprisingly, the Cavs rank 17th in assists.

Love is getting his because Lebron is holding back in scoring.

But Lebron wouldn't need to hold back shit if he played off-ball.

Can you imagine Lebron achieving his maximum stats AND Love getting his 26/13?... Jordan's off-ball game allowed everyone to achieve their maximum production, which is why his teams virtually NEVER underachieved and went 6/6 in the Finals - that's why he has twice as many rings and fmvps as Lebron thru 13 seasons.. lol... jordan destroys him

[NZStreetBaller]

Lebron and bird both won 3 championships. What does the assist ranking have to do with anything??

They both gained similar success with far different assist numbers:wtf:

[aj1987]

I compared Bosh and Love's peak season to their tenure with Lebron, and I compared Grant's peak season to his only season without Jordan.

So it's apples to apples..

Otoh, your stats show Grant, BJ and Kukoc from their rookie seasons, when guys like Grant and BJ averaged 7 ppg and 5 ppg, respectively.

Nice try, but your analysis just shows that you aren't capable of discerning or comparing apples to apples - you must've done HORRIBLY on standardized testing.. ... I'll excuse it if ur from low income family.

btw, harper averaged 6.9 ppg in 1995 before Jordan returned for the final 17 games, and then 7.4 in 1996 when Jordan was there for a full season.. Also, Kukoc moved into Scottie's slot in the triangle in 1999, which is an automatic 18/5.. That's just how the position works, and that's part of the reason Pippen is grossly overrated.. Just ask Isiah, Laimbeer, or anyone that played against the Bulls - the entire focus was on Jordan, who was the biggest focal point EVER of defenses
Keep cherrypicking, retard.

I'll repost it. Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.

[AussieSteve]

Lebron has won 3 of the last 5 championships. And it was only injuries to Kyrie and Love that prevented it from being 4 of the last 5. To me that sounds like some decent team success.

This whole thread is ridiculous!!! For much of his career, Lebron has been both the best scorer in the league AND the best passer in the league. He still is the best passer IMO. When you have a player on your team who is both the best scorer and the best passer in the league, doesn't it make sense that the game plan should be to put the ball in his hands and let him do what he wants with it? Of course other players' assist numbers will go down. The team is better with the ball in Lebron's hands than anyone else's. There is nothing here worth debating.

Different styles work for different teams. If the Cavs are winning, then their game plan should not be under scrutiny. All you have to do is watch the Cavs play and you realize that their game plan is working... BECAUSE Lebron is so good at what he does.

[3ball]

Lebron has won 3 of the last 5 championships. And it was only injuries to Kyrie and Love that prevented it from being 4 of the last 5. To me that sounds like some decent team success.

This whole thread is ridiculous!!! For much of his career, Lebron has been both the best scorer in the league AND the best passer in the league. He still is the best passer IMO. When you have a player on your team who is both the best scorer and the best passer in the league, doesn't it make sense that the game plan should be to put the ball in his hands and let him do what he wants with it? Of course other players' assist numbers will go down. The team is better with the ball in Lebron's hands than anyone else's. There is nothing here worth debating.

Different styles work for different teams. If the Cavs are winning, then their game plan should not be under scrutiny. All you have to do is watch the Cavs play and you realize that their game plan is working... BECAUSE Lebron is so good at what he does.


The guy lost in 2011 and 2014 when he should've won

That wouldn't have happened if his teams didn't rank 26th and 11th in assists.. the teams he lost to didn't win based on talent - they won based on better teamwork, chemistry, and brand of basketball.

Lebron's teams always rank low in APG, because he lowered the APG of every key teammate he's ever had - that's statistical (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12681450&postcount=21) fact.. By reducing his team's APG and teamwork, he needs excessive supporting talent to win (team-hopping).. It's pretty simple.

[aj1987]

The guy lost in 2011 and 2014 when he should've won

That wouldn't have happened if his teams didn't rank 26th and 11th in assists.. the teams he lost to didn't win based on talent - they won based on better teamwork, chemistry, and brand of basketball.
They lost in '11 because LeBron choked and they lost in '14 because the Spurs were significantly better. Of course, you do not know that because you've never actually watched a minute of basketball in your life.

BTW:

Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.


tl;dr - LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>> Ordan.

[Smoke117]

As far as passing goes:

Lebron
Bird






Jordan

[3ball]

Now you want to apply context to the walls of stats you post, retard? :oldlol:

I'll repost it. Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.


I compared Bosh and Love's peak season to their tenure with Lebron, and I compared Grant's peak season to his only season without Jordan.

So it's apples to apples..

Otoh, your stats show Grant, BJ and Kukoc from their rookie seasons, when guys like Grant, Pippen, and BJ averaged 7 ppg, 7 ppg, and 5 ppg, respectively.

Nice try, but your analysis just shows that you aren't capable of discerning or comparing apples to apples - you must've done HORRIBLY on standardized testing.. ... I'll excuse it if ur from low income family.

btw, harper averaged 6.9 ppg in 1995 before Jordan returned for the final 17 games, and then 7.4 in 1996 when Jordan was there for a full season.. Also, Kukoc moved into Scottie's slot in the triangle in 1999, which is an automatic 18/5.. That's just how the position works, and that's part of the reason Pippen is grossly overrated.. Just ask Isiah, Laimbeer, or anyone that played against the Bulls - the entire focus was on Jordan, who was the biggest focal point EVER of defenses

[3ball]

Lebron has won 3 of the last 5 championships. And it was only injuries to Kyrie and Love that prevented it from being 4 of the last 5. To me that sounds like some decent team success.

Different styles work for different teams. If the Cavs are winning, then their game plan should not be under scrutiny. All you have to do is watch the Cavs play and you realize that their game plan is working... BECAUSE Lebron is so good at what he does.


Jordan was 6/6 and his teams NEVER underachieved, whereas Lebron lost in 2009 and 2010 as the #1 seed, and 2011 and 2014 Finals when he should've won.

He wouldn't have lost those Finals if his teams didn't rank 26th and 11th in assists.. the teams that beat him didn't win based on talent - they won based on better teamwork, chemistry, and brand of basketball.

Unfortunately, Lebron's teams always rank low in APG, because he lowered the APG of every key teammate he's ever had - that's statistical (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12681450&postcount=21) fact.. By reducing his team's APG and teamwork, he needs excessive supporting talent to win (team-hopping).. It's pretty simple.
.

[SouBeachTalents]

dumbasses itt

How ironic considering you're the dumbass who expects two players going from first options on lottery teams to third options on championships and expecting to see NO drop off in production :roll: Bosh & Love are going to both average 25 ppg having to share the ball with LeBron/Wade/Kyrie, very realistic expectations

[aj1987]

I compared Bosh and Love's peak season to their tenure with Lebron, and I compared Grant's peak season to his only season without Jordan.

So it's apples to apples..

Otoh, your stats show Grant, BJ and Kukoc from their rookie seasons, when guys like Grant, Pippen, and BJ averaged 7 ppg, 7 ppg, and 5 ppg, respectively.

Nice try, but your analysis just shows that you aren't capable of discerning or comparing apples to apples - you must've done HORRIBLY on standardized testing.. ... I'll excuse it if ur from low income family.

btw, harper averaged 6.9 ppg in 1995 before Jordan returned for the final 17 games, and then 7.4 in 1996 when Jordan was there for a full season.. Also, Kukoc moved into Scottie's slot in the triangle in 1999, which is an automatic 18/5.. That's just how the position works, and that's part of the reason Pippen is grossly overrated.. Just ask Isiah, Laimbeer, or anyone that played against the Bulls - the entire focus was on Jordan, who was the biggest focal point EVER of defenses
3ball again with his blatantly retarded cherrypicking. :roll: :roll:

Keep trowing out context and cherrypick to suit your agenda, autistic shit.

Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.

[3ball]

3ball again with his blatantly retarded cherrypicking. :roll: :roll:

Keep trowing out context and cherrypick to suit your agenda, autistic shit.

Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.


Fool, you're comparing Pippen, Grant and BJ Armstrong as 6 ppg rookies alongside Jordan, to their one season without Jordan (when they were in their prime).

Otoh, I compared Bosh and Love's peak season to their tenure with Lebron, and then compared Grant's peak season to his only season without Jordan.

THAT'S apples to apples.. your stats are just proving that you probably come from a low income family, which is fine, because so did i.


Grant's highs alongside Jordan are nearly the same as 1994, while Bosh and Love's highs CRATERED when they joined Lebron - there's no comparison:



Grant 1992:. 14/10
Grant 1994:. 15/11

Love. 2014vI:. 26/13
Love 15 & 16:. 16/10

Bosh. 2010.:. 24/11
Bosh 11-14':. 17/7


Sources:

Love 2015 & 2016 stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game
Bosh 2011 - 2014 stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game

[aj1987]

Fool, you're comparing Pippen, Grant and BJ Armstrong as 6 ppg rookies alongside Jordan, to their one season without Jordan (when they were in their prime).

Otoh, I compared Bosh and Love's peak season to their tenure with Lebron, and then compared Grant's peak season to his only season without Jordan.

THAT'S apples to apples.. your stats are just proving that you probably come from a low income family, which is fine, because so did i.
You still don't get it, you retard. :facepalm


Grant's highs alongside Jordan are nearly the same as 1994, while Bosh and Love's highs CRATERED when they joined Lebron - there's no comparison:



Grant 1992:. 14/10
Grant 1994:. 15/11

Love. 2014vI:. 26/13
Love 15 & 16:. 16/10

Bosh. 2010.:. 24/11 Magenta Bosh 11-14':. 17/7


Sources:

Love 2015 & 2016 stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game
Bosh 2011 - 2014 stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game

Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.


How ironic considering you're the dumbass who expects two players going from first options on lottery teams to third options on championships and expecting to see NO drop off in production :roll: Bosh & Love are going to both average 25 ppg having to share the ball with LeBron/Wade/Kyrie, very realistic expectations
He's a cherrypicking ****tard, who still doesn't understand the word context.

[plowking]

The 2013 Heat and 2014 Spurs have the highest passing totals of any team ever. Hence playing optimal basketball, and much better than those shitty 90's teams. Just better ball movement at the end of the day.

Another reason why today's teams would crush Jordan's.

[Smoke117]

The 2013 Heat and 2014 Spurs have the highest passing totals of any team ever. Hence playing optimal basketball, and much better than those shitty 90's teams. Just better ball movement at the end of the day.

Another reason why today's teams would crush Jordan's.

Do you ever stop saying stupid shit? Stick to rugby.

[Nash]

I don't get 3ball and his arguments. He's always basing them on the fact that Lebron's teammates numbers lessen when they play with him. Of course they ****in' do, they go from 1st option to 2nd/3rd option.

How is this even a thing?

Do you honestly expect Kevin Love to score as many points for Cleveland as 3rd option as he did with Minny as 1st option?

Here is a way for your dumb ass to understand this: Go outside and shot 10 jumpshots, then bring your imaginary friend and divide the shots between you two.

[3ball]

Do you honestly expect Kevin Love to score as many points for Cleveland as 3rd option as he did with Minny as 1st option?



You've missed the point - Lebron doesn't just lower his teammates' ppg.

MORE important than ppg, Lebron lowered the APG of every key teammate (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12681450&postcount=21) he's ever had, which explains why his teams always rank low in APG.. By reducing his team's APG and teamwork, he needs excessive supporting talent to win (team-hopping).. It's pretty simple.

[BigKAT]

Michael Jordan is the GOAT.


Lebron James is amazing.
And the superior passer.



Clippers were 14th last year. And 11th before that.
And they have arguebly the best Passing Point guard since Steve Nash.

[zeerghit]

miami had great run in playoffs when lebron left them, great one, he was really holding them badly

[3ball]

Lebron James is amazing.


Westbrook is more amazing this year.. Shaq was more amazing.. Kobe was more amazing.

Lots of players are amazing - so that isn't an argument that helps him vs. the goat.. That response is just a meaningless space-filler to avoid saying he's inferior to the goat





Michael Jordan is the GOAT.


Thru 13 seasons, Jordan has twice the rings and fmvp's as Lebron..

and Lebron's first 3 rings were achieved with 20% less scoring in the playoffs than Jordan's first 3 rings, with worse efficiency (ts, fg, ortg, per), EQUAL assists and more turnovers.

Their respective playoff stats for their 3 championship runs show these things, along with their overall playoff stats thru 31 years old - see these stats here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12679667&postcount=37).. So jordan DID MORE for his rings than lebron - it's statistical fact.





And the superior passer.


Lebron isn't a better passer - he's simply a more WILLING passer because his scoring capability and scoring burden is far less than Jordan's.

Lebron isn't even his team's leading scorer this season... and also in the 2011 playoffs... and he only led Kyrie by 1 ppg in last year's playoffs..

Otoh, Jordan led his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career by an average margin of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920).. No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career, let alone by a margin of 15 ppg like Jordan, WHILE leading their team in passing (Jordan led the Bulls in assists most playoff runs and overall assist percentage for each 3-peat (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49)), and WHILE being the best defender ever at their position.

Ultimately, Lebron plays point guard and Jordan SG (with a far greater scoring burden), yet Jordan averages only 1.0-1.5 less assists than Lebron, which is offset by fewer turnovers.. And the one time Jordan played point guard for 24 games in 1989, he was a better PG than Lebron ever was (30/9/11, including 10 triple-doubles in 11 games), and everyone was saying (http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/) that he was already a better PG than Isiah and Magic.. Even more impressively, Jordan averaged 11.2 apg in the 1991 Finals AS A SHOOTING GUARD - that's the greatest passing performance, probably ever.. :confusedshrug: Jordan was better at everything than Lebron, except defensive rebounding.

[egokiller]

Lebron has won 3 of the last 5 championships. And it was only injuries to Kyrie and Love that prevented it from being 4 of the last 5. To me that sounds like some decent team success.

This whole thread is ridiculous!!! For much of his career, Lebron has been both the best scorer in the league AND the best passer in the league. He still is the best passer IMO. When you have a player on your team who is both the best scorer and the best passer in the league, doesn't it make sense that the game plan should be to put the ball in his hands and let him do what he wants with it? Of course other players' assist numbers will go down. The team is better with the ball in Lebron's hands than anyone else's. There is nothing here worth debating.

Different styles work for different teams. If the Cavs are winning, then their game plan should not be under scrutiny. All you have to do is watch the Cavs play and you realize that their game plan is working... BECAUSE Lebron is so good at what he does.

Relax man.. all of what lebron has done means little if he fvcks up this next GOLDEN opportunity of being able to beat a team of 5 all-stars. We are talking 3/8 if that happens. Jordan would have been foaming at the mouth for a chance to beat a team like GSW. Now it's all in the hands of lebron. Either he beats GSW in the 2017 NBA finals and takes his rightful place ahead of KAJ and becomes #2 next to GOAT MJ, or he fails and becomes 3/8.

Let's see what happens. We already know Kyrie is going to show up.

3ball, thoughts on Lebron if he can beat GSW in 2017 NBA finals and everyone is healthy? #2 after MJ? This is one hell of a challenge, so if he can over come it we gotta give cred to his bitch ass cause cred will be due.

[Da_Realist]

Relax man.. all of what lebron has done means little if he fvcks up this next GOLDEN opportunity of being able to beat a team of 5 all-stars. We are talking 3/8 if that happens. Jordan would have been foaming at the mouth for a chance to beat a team like GSW. Now it's all in the hands of lebron. Either he beats GSW in the 2017 NBA finals and takes his rightful place ahead of KAJ and becomes #2 next to GOAT MJ, or he fails and becomes 3/8.

Let's see what happens. We already know Kyrie is going to show up.

3ball, thoughts on Lebron if he can beat GSW in 2017 NBA finals and everyone is healthy? #2 after MJ? This is one hell of a challenge, so if he can over come it we gotta give cred to his bitch ass cause cred will be due.

:facepalm

[NBAGOAT]

It's funny how people accuse me of lying, but no one has EVER pointed out one of my "lies".

So go ahead - what specifically, have i ever lied about in this forum? (crickets coming..)

:lol. you said just yesterday there has never been footage of vince's head at the riml. I linked a video of his head likely above the rim in college and you completely ignored it. You cannot be serious

[3ball]

:lol. you said just yesterday there has never been footage of vince's head at the riml. I linked a video of his head likely above the rim in college and you completely ignored it. You cannot be serious


That's all you got?.. A college video?

It's like I told Kblaze - Jordan is the only guy in history who DUNKED with his head at the rim off one AND two legs.

Lebron and Vince have only dunked off ONE leg with their head at rim, and Dominique only off two.

None have dunked off one AND two legs with head at rim - only Jordan has done this, and this versatility makes him the greatest leaper of all time.

[3ball]

3ball, thoughts on Lebron if he can beat GSW in 2017 NBA finals and everyone is healthy? #2 after MJ?

This is one hell of a challenge, so if he can over come it we gotta give cred to his bitch ass cause cred will be due.


Thru 13 seasons each, Jordan had twice the rings and fmvp's as Lebron, and his team never lost as the favorite, or even when it was 50/50.

Furthermore, the stats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12683612&postcount=39) show that Jordan's first 3 rings required 25% more scoring in the playoffs than Lebron's 3 rings, with equal assists and better efficiency across the board (ts, fg, ortg, PER).

So there's nothing Lebron can do to catch MJ.. Also, I don't agree that Lebron would be #2 if he won this year.. Every ring he will ever win resulted from team-hopping first.

And this thread explains WHY Lebron needs to team-hop.. He lowered the APG of every key teammate he's ever had, so his teams always rank low in APG - by reducing his team's APG and teamwork, he needs excessive supporting talent to win (team-hopping).. It's pretty simple, and a player like this can't be compared to MJ, whose game facilitated teamwork and was in another dimension from Lebron.

[NBAGOAT]

That's all you got?.. A college video?

It's like I told Kblaze - Jordan is the only guy in history who DUNKED with his head at the rim off one AND two legs.

Lebron and Vince have only dunked off ONE leg with their head at rim, and Dominique only off two.

None have dunked off one AND two legs with head at rim - only Jordan has done this, and this versatility makes him the greatest leaper of all time.

that's not the point. I'm not trying to argue Vince is a better leaper. I'm just showing that you lied and a college video is still "footage". There's nothing wrong with an exaggeration or inaccuracy here are there but your posts are always full of exaggerations, inaccuracies and unnecessary putdowns just to drive your point. Disingenous as hell.

[3ball]

that's not the point. I'm not trying to argue Vince is a better leaper. I'm just showing that you lied and a college video is still "footage".

There's nothing wrong with an exaggeration or inaccuracy here are there but your posts are always full of exaggerations, inaccuracies and unnecessary putdowns just to drive your point. Disingenous as hell.


If all you have is that college video to support your case that I'm a liar, than it falls under your acceptable limit of an "exaggerration or inaccuracy here and there", as you say above

You can't say that my posts are "full of exaggerations", and then only point out a small one.

Again, no one has dunked off one AND two legs with head at rim - only Jordan has done this, and this versatility makes him the greatest leaper of all time.

And regarding this thread - it explains why Lebron needs to team-hop.. He lowered the APG of every key teammate he's ever had, so his teams always rank low in APG - by reducing his team's APG and teamwork, he needs excessive supporting talent to win (team-hopping).. It's pretty simple.

[NBAGOAT]

If all you have is that college video to support your case that I'm a liar, than it falls under your acceptable limit of an "exaggerration or inaccuracy here and there", as you say above

You can't say that my posts are "full of exaggerations", and then only point out a small one.

Again, no one has dunked off one AND two legs with head at rim - only Jordan has done this, and this versatility makes him the greatest leaper of all time.

And regarding this thread - it explains why Lebron needs to team-hop.. He lowered the APG of every key teammate he's ever had, so his teams always rank low in APG - by reducing his team's APG and teamwork, he needs excessive supporting talent to win (team-hopping).. It's pretty simple.

true I was wrong with that. Your posts aren't full of those inaccuracies because then they get completely shut down but I'll reword it this way. It's one thing to have an exaggeration or inaccuracy once in awhile. You practically have one every other post which is still disingenous as hell. There's a reason you get challenges frequently where people will just flat out say you're wrong factually/ Did not bring the apg stuff at all and you already made and a thread with the same exact phrasing so save it for someone

[3ball]

true I was wrong with that. Your posts aren't full of those inaccuracies because then they get completely shut down but I'll reword it this way. It's one thing to have an exaggeration or inaccuracy once in awhile. You practically have one every other post which is still disingenous as hell. There's a reason you get challenges frequently where people will just flat out say you're wrong factually/ Did not bring the apg stuff at all and you already made and a thread with the same exact phrasing so save it for someone
If all you have is that college video to support your case that I'm a liar, than it falls under your acceptable limit of an "exaggerration or inaccuracy here and there", as you say above

You can't say that my posts are "full of exaggerations", and then only point out a small one.

Again, no one has dunked off one AND two legs with head at rim - only Jordan has done this, and this versatility makes him the greatest leaper of all time.

And regarding this thread - it explains why Lebron needs to team-hop.. He lowered the APG of every key teammate he's ever had, so his teams always rank low in APG - by reducing his team's APG and teamwork, he needs excessive supporting talent to win (team-hopping).. It's pretty simple.