Which PF was the best at their peak?

[AussieSteve]

We all know that Tim Duncan is the GOAT power forward, but I wanted a way to quantify who was the best at their peak. That is, which PF had the single best 82 consecutive game stretch.

Purely in terms of adding up basic counting stats, the best 82 game stretch for the top 5 PFs are

1. Garnett - 24.6ppg, 14.1rpg, 5.7apg, 1.3spg, 2.1bpg (14/2/03 -> 10/2/04)
2. Malone - 31.5ppg, 11.0rpg, 2.9apg, 1.6spg, 0.6bpg (8/4/89 -> 12/4/90)
3. Barkley - 23.3ppg, 15.0rpg, 5.1apg, 1.9spg, 1.6bpg (21/3/86 -> 7/11/87)
4. Duncan - 25.5ppg, 12.7rpg, 3.7apg, 0.7spg, 2.5bpg (30/10/01 -> 17/4/02)
5. Nowitzki - 26.2ppg, 9.9rpg, 3.0apg, 1.3spg, 1.6bpg (22/3/04 -> 1/4/05)

If we get a little more advanced... In terms of average game score, which basically adds up counting stats but also factors in shooting efficiency and turnovers, their best 82 game stretch was

1. Barkley - 25.43 (28.3ppg, 11.4rpg, 3.9apg, 1.8spg, 0.6bpg, 3.0tov, .660 TS%) (17/1/90 -> 1/2/91)
2. Malone - 24.47 (31.5ppg, 11.0rpg, 2.9apg, 1.6spg, 0.6bpg, 3.7tov, .632 TS%) (8/4/89 -> 12/4/90)
3. Garnett - 22.88 (24.4ppg, 14.0rpg, 5.4apg, 1.7spg, 2.0bpg, 2.8tov, .554 TS%) (7/12/03 -> 10/12/04)
4. Nowitzki - 21.72 (26.8ppg, 9.7rpg, 3.4apg, 0.8spg, 0.9bpg, 2.0tov, .609 TS%) (23/2/06 -> 24/2/07)
5. Duncan - 21.63 (25.5ppg, 12.7rpg, 3.7apg, 0.7spg, 2.5bpg, 3.2tov, .576 TS%) (30/10/01 -> 17/4/02)

I like game score, but we need to factor in winning. Stats are meaningless if they are not translating to wins. So I came up with the formula GmSc*0.5*(1+win%). Which means that a loss is only worth half of a win. If a player has an average GmSc of 10.0, and his team won 82 games, his weighted GmSc will remain at 10.0. If he had 41 wins, it would be 7.5. If he had 0 wins, it would be 5.0. Using this formula the highest 82 game peak by each of these PFs was

1. Barkley - 21.51 (57 wins, 28.0ppg, 11.3rpg, 4.0apg, 1.8spg, 0.6bpg, 3.1tov .665 TS%) (8/1/90 -> 5/1/91)
2. Malone - 20.74 (57 wins, 31.5ppg, 11.0rpg, 2.9apg, 1.6spg, 0.6bpg, 3.7tov, .632 TS%) (8/4/89 -> 12/4/90)
3. Garnett - 19.81 (60 wins, 24.4ppg, 14.0rpg, 5.4apg, 1.7spg, 2.0bpg, 2.8tov, .554 TS%) (7/12/03 -> 10/12/04)
4. Nowitzki - 19.29 (65 wins, 26.4ppg, 9.7rpg, 3.4apg, 0.8spg, 0.9bpg, 2.0tov, .607 TS%) (7/3/06 -> 11/3/07)
5. Duncan - 18.55 (64 wins, 23.6ppg, 13.2rpg, 3.7apg, 0.7spg, 2.9bpg, 3.0tov .557 TS%) (21/12/02 -> 26/12/03)

So the stats say that, in terms of regular season performance, Barkley appears to have had the highest peak. And when considering both individual output and team results, Barkley in 1990 was the best that a PF has been.

I think I will do this for the playoffs also.

Do people think that this is a reliable way to compare peaks?

[Round Mound]

We all know that Tim Duncan is the GOAT power forward, but I wanted a way to quantify who was the best at their peak. That is, which PF had the single best 82 consecutive game stretch.

Purely in terms of adding up basic counting stats, the best 82 game stretch for the top 5 PFs are

1. Garnett - 24.6ppg, 14.1rpg, 5.7apg, 1.3spg, 2.1bpg (14/2/03 -> 10/2/04)
2. Malone - 31.5ppg, 11.0rpg, 2.9apg, 1.6spg, 0.6bpg (8/4/89 -> 12/4/90)
3. Barkley - 23.3ppg, 15.0rpg, 5.1apg, 1.9spg, 1.6bpg (21/3/86 -> 7/11/87)
4. Duncan - 25.5ppg, 12.7rpg, 3.7apg, 0.7spg, 2.5bpg (30/10/01 -> 17/4/02)
5. Nowitzki - 26.2ppg, 9.9rpg, 3.0apg, 1.3spg, 1.6bpg (22/3/04 -> 1/4/05)

If we get a little more advanced... In terms of average game score, which basically adds up counting stats but also factors in shooting efficiency and turnovers, their best 82 game stretch was

1. Barkley - 25.43 (28.3ppg, 11.4rpg, 3.9apg, 1.8spg, 0.6bpg, 3.0tov, .660 TS%) (17/1/90 -> 1/2/91)
2. Malone - 24.47 (31.5ppg, 11.0rpg, 2.9apg, 1.6spg, 0.6bpg, 3.7tov, .632 TS%) (8/4/89 -> 12/4/90)
3. Garnett - 22.88 (24.4ppg, 14.0rpg, 5.4apg, 1.7spg, 2.0bpg, 2.8tov, .554 TS%) (7/12/03 -> 10/12/04)
4. Nowitzki - 21.72 (26.8ppg, 9.7rpg, 3.4apg, 0.8spg, 0.9bpg, 2.0tov, .609 TS%) (23/2/06 -> 24/2/07)
5. Duncan - 21.63 (25.5ppg, 12.7rpg, 3.7apg, 0.7spg, 2.5bpg, 3.2tov, .576 TS%) (30/10/01 -> 17/4/02)

I like game score, but we need to factor in winning. Stats are meaningless if they are not translating to wins. So I came up with the formula GmSc*0.5*(1+win%). Which means that a loss is only worth half of a win. If a player has an average GmSc of 10.0, and his team won 82 games, his weighted GmSc will remain at 10.0. If he had 41 wins, it would be 7.5. If he had 0 wins, it would be 5.0. Using this formula the highest 82 game peak by each of these PFs was

1. Barkley - 21.51 (57 wins, 28.0ppg, 11.3rpg, 4.0apg, 1.8spg, 0.6bpg, 3.1tov .665 TS%) (8/1/90 -> 5/1/91)
2. Malone - 20.74 (57 wins, 31.5ppg, 11.0rpg, 2.9apg, 1.6spg, 0.6bpg, 3.7tov, .632 TS%) (8/4/89 -> 12/4/90)
3. Garnett - 19.81 (60 wins, 24.4ppg, 14.0rpg, 5.4apg, 1.7spg, 2.0bpg, 2.8tov, .554 TS%) (7/12/03 -> 10/12/04)
4. Nowitzki - 19.29 (65 wins, 26.4ppg, 9.7rpg, 3.4apg, 0.8spg, 0.9bpg, 2.0tov, .607 TS%) (7/3/06 -> 11/3/07)
5. Duncan - 18.55 (64 wins, 23.6ppg, 13.2rpg, 3.7apg, 0.7spg, 2.9bpg, 3.0tov .557 TS%) (21/12/02 -> 26/12/03)

So the stats say that, in terms of regular season performance, Barkley appears to have had the highest peak. And when considering both individual output and team results, Barkley in 1990 was the best that a PF has been.

I think I will do this for the playoffs also.

Do people think that this is a reliable way to compare peaks?

:applause:

[SpaceJam]

I'm intrigued in seeing more

[NBAGOAT]

well done. I would only say the problem with using a mostly box score approach is it's going undersell defense and that's really where kg and duncan shine. Including wins does help that some but not enough for a lot of people. It'll underrate Dirk a little too since his scoring numbers have always undersold how good of an offensive anchor he is. Barkley's peak is still fantastic however and underrated now.

[DaHeezy]

In the early 90's I thought Barkley was the best player in the game, period. Too bad management ****ed his Sixers up. Losing Dawkins and trading Gminski for Armonk Gilliam killed them.

[Round Mound]

In the early 90's I thought Barkley was the best player in the game, period. Too bad management ****ed his Sixers up. Losing Dawkins and reading Gminski for Armonk Gilliam killed them.

:applause: And was robbed from the 1990 MVP too.

[aj1987]

1) Barkley
2) KG
3) Duncan
4) Malone
5) Dirk

KG has Barkley beat defensively, but Chuck in the playoffs was just a monster.
You actually think that Barkley and KG were better than Duncan at their peaks? :biggums: :biggums:

[k0kakw0rld]

Barkley/Duncan
Duncan/Barkley
Malone
KG
Dirk

[Smoke117]

There will never be a season that matches Garnett's all-around brilliance in 2004 again. That is the most complete season by anyone, EVER.

[k0kakw0rld]

There will never be a season that matches Garnett's all-around brilliance in 2004 again. That is the most complete season by anyone, EVER.
Stop smoking that 117 bruh :wtf:

[warriorfan]

KG/DUNCAN
DIRK/MALONE/BARKLEY

.

[Atlantis]

In my opinion, what separates great from the best is superlative performance in the postseason. Regular season dominance is necessary but not sufficient for GOAT status, and I think Dirk's 2011 performance puts him on top. To me, a single world-class performance is more important than sustained regular season dominance, or even several very good, but not superlative postseasons. I just never feel like KG, or even Duncan ever dominated in the way that Dirk did in 2011. I wasn't around to watch Barkley play, so I don't really have anything to say about him.

[fourkicks44]

We all know that Tim Duncan is the GOAT power forward, but I wanted a way to quantify who was the best at their peak. That is, which PF had the single best 82 consecutive game stretch.

Purely in terms of adding up basic counting stats, the best 82 game stretch for the top 5 PFs are

1. Garnett - 24.6ppg, 14.1rpg, 5.7apg, 1.3spg, 2.1bpg (14/2/03 -> 10/2/04)
2. Malone - 31.5ppg, 11.0rpg, 2.9apg, 1.6spg, 0.6bpg (8/4/89 -> 12/4/90)
3. Barkley - 23.3ppg, 15.0rpg, 5.1apg, 1.9spg, 1.6bpg (21/3/86 -> 7/11/87)
4. Duncan - 25.5ppg, 12.7rpg, 3.7apg, 0.7spg, 2.5bpg (30/10/01 -> 17/4/02)
5. Nowitzki - 26.2ppg, 9.9rpg, 3.0apg, 1.3spg, 1.6bpg (22/3/04 -> 1/4/05)

If we get a little more advanced... In terms of average game score, which basically adds up counting stats but also factors in shooting efficiency and turnovers, their best 82 game stretch was

1. Barkley - 25.43 (28.3ppg, 11.4rpg, 3.9apg, 1.8spg, 0.6bpg, 3.0tov, .660 TS%) (17/1/90 -> 1/2/91)
2. Malone - 24.47 (31.5ppg, 11.0rpg, 2.9apg, 1.6spg, 0.6bpg, 3.7tov, .632 TS%) (8/4/89 -> 12/4/90)
3. Garnett - 22.88 (24.4ppg, 14.0rpg, 5.4apg, 1.7spg, 2.0bpg, 2.8tov, .554 TS%) (7/12/03 -> 10/12/04)
4. Nowitzki - 21.72 (26.8ppg, 9.7rpg, 3.4apg, 0.8spg, 0.9bpg, 2.0tov, .609 TS%) (23/2/06 -> 24/2/07)
5. Duncan - 21.63 (25.5ppg, 12.7rpg, 3.7apg, 0.7spg, 2.5bpg, 3.2tov, .576 TS%) (30/10/01 -> 17/4/02)

I like game score, but we need to factor in winning. Stats are meaningless if they are not translating to wins. So I came up with the formula GmSc*0.5*(1+win%). Which means that a loss is only worth half of a win. If a player has an average GmSc of 10.0, and his team won 82 games, his weighted GmSc will remain at 10.0. If he had 41 wins, it would be 7.5. If he had 0 wins, it would be 5.0. Using this formula the highest 82 game peak by each of these PFs was

1. Barkley - 21.51 (57 wins, 28.0ppg, 11.3rpg, 4.0apg, 1.8spg, 0.6bpg, 3.1tov .665 TS%) (8/1/90 -> 5/1/91)
2. Malone - 20.74 (57 wins, 31.5ppg, 11.0rpg, 2.9apg, 1.6spg, 0.6bpg, 3.7tov, .632 TS%) (8/4/89 -> 12/4/90)
3. Garnett - 19.81 (60 wins, 24.4ppg, 14.0rpg, 5.4apg, 1.7spg, 2.0bpg, 2.8tov, .554 TS%) (7/12/03 -> 10/12/04)
4. Nowitzki - 19.29 (65 wins, 26.4ppg, 9.7rpg, 3.4apg, 0.8spg, 0.9bpg, 2.0tov, .607 TS%) (7/3/06 -> 11/3/07)
5. Duncan - 18.55 (64 wins, 23.6ppg, 13.2rpg, 3.7apg, 0.7spg, 2.9bpg, 3.0tov .557 TS%) (21/12/02 -> 26/12/03)

So the stats say that, in terms of regular season performance, Barkley appears to have had the highest peak. And when considering both individual output and team results, Barkley in 1990 was the best that a PF has been.

I think I will do this for the playoffs also.

Do people think that this is a reliable way to compare peaks?

You are forgetting the GOAT power forward in your analysis:

http://cache.nba.com/media/history/bob_pettit_350.jpg

[AussieSteve]

well done. I would only say the problem with using a mostly box score approach is it's going undersell defense and that's really where kg and duncan shine. Including wins does help that some but not enough for a lot of people. It'll underrate Dirk a little too since his scoring numbers have always undersold how good of an offensive anchor he is. Barkley's peak is still fantastic however and underrated now.


I agree... I thought about using advanced stats like ORtg and DRtg instead of box stats, but these are pretty unreliable also. I concede that Duncan is underrated here.

My gut tells me that if I do the same analysis for peak playoff performance, Duncan will come in much higher.

[warriorfan]

Im no duncan fan but you need to respect

He was a monster in his hayday

Two way dominance, something that Dirk/Barkley/Malone were missing

Dirk is an underated defender though

Barkley was such an ass defender, he was arguably better offensively than dirk but just so shitty defensively...seriously the worst....peep any full game of barkley and try to refute this shit....you cannot...was the absolute worst defender of all time at the power forward position

[KiiiiNG]

In my opinion, what separates great from the best is superlative performance in the postseason. Regular season dominance is necessary but not sufficient for GOAT status, and I think Dirk's 2011 performance puts him on top. To me, a single world-class performance is more important than sustained regular season dominance, or even several very good, but not superlative postseasons. I just never feel like KG, or even Duncan ever dominated in the way that Dirk did in 2011. I wasn't around to watch Barkley play, so I don't really have anything to say about him.
Dirk was ordinary in the finals. Everybody knows it was a fluke championship spearheaded by Wade choking/trying to be the man

Nice try though.

[warriorfan]

Dirk was ordinary in the finals. Everybody knows it was a fluke championship spearheaded by Wade choking/trying to be the man

Nice try though.

Reported

[warriorfan]

I say racist shit about blacks almost daily, I'm pretty much immune to bans

Plus I have like 7 different accounts so I'm not tripping either way.

nice life, green polo

[AussieSteve]

Im no duncan fan but you need to respect

He was a monster in his hayday

Two way dominance, something that Dirk/Barkley/Malone were missing

Dirk is an underated defender though

Barkley was such an ass defender, he was arguably better offensively than dirk but just so shitty defensively...seriously the worst....peep any full game of barkley and try to refute this shit....you cannot...was the absolute worst defender of all time at the power forward position


I don't disagree that defensive prowess is undervalued in this analysis, but it is factored in to some extent... Blocks and steals account for some of it. But more significantly, better defense should correlate with more wins, and a player's score is heavily affected by his win %.

[warriorfan]

I don't disagree that defensive prowess is undervalued in this analysis, but it is factored in to some extent... Blocks and steals account for some of it. But more significantly, better defense should correlate with more wins, and a player's score is heavily affected by his win %.

I am all with your new look at statistical analysis but the final check should be watching the games

watch the games, watch barkley's defense...I'm not making shit up

[Round Mound]

Its funny that they want to descredit that the smallest PF ever as also being the best in his Peak :rolleyes: :no: :rant :banghead: :hammerhead: But i dont wonder why. Its frustrating when the smallest dude eats u alive every game. Prime Barkley was better than any PF ever. Just watch the games...:confusedshrug:

[CAstill]

96 Kemp out played Richmond, Hakeem, Malone and Jordan in a single playoff run on both sides of the court. No one comes close to this. 93 Barkley would be second best.

[AussieSteve]

96 Kemp out played Richmond, Hakeem, Malone and Jordan in a single playoff run on both sides of the court. No one comes close to this. 93 Barkley would be second best.

A playoff run during which he averaged 20.9ppg, 10.4rpg and 1.5apg? Every single one of the five guys in this list has multiple playoff runs that exceed this one.

[aj1987]

Its funny that they want to descredit that the smallest PF ever as also being the best in his Peak :rolleyes: :no: :rant :banghead: :hammerhead: But i dont wonder why. Its frustrating when the smallest dude eats u alive every game. Prime Barkley was better than any PF ever. Just watch the games...:confusedshrug:
And Duncan at his peak provided a similar level of scoring and rebounding while being a DPOY level defender. Duncan shits on any PF and it's not particularly close either.

[AussieSteve]

Playoff analysis here...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=421961

[ClipperRevival]

Basketball is played on two ends. Give me the guys who could dominate on the defensive end and near dominant scoring on the offensive end. So for me:

Duncan/KG
Barkley/Malone/Dirk

Numbers can only tell you so much. But the IMPACT of a great defender can't really be measured.

[r0drig0lac]

1- Duncan 03
2- Garnett 04
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/confusedshrug.gif

[rmt]

In my opinion, what separates great from the best is superlative performance in the postseason. Regular season dominance is necessary but not sufficient for GOAT status, and I think Dirk's 2011 performance puts him on top. To me, a single world-class performance is more important than sustained regular season dominance, or even several very good, but not superlative postseasons. I just never feel like KG, or even Duncan ever dominated in the way that Dirk did in 2011. I wasn't around to watch Barkley play, so I don't really have anything to say about him.

Dirk 2011 is not even listed among the OP and do you discount the defensive end? IMO, of those listed by OP (which I assume he picked the most dominant run of each player) only Duncan in 03 culminated in a championship (that's the goal, isn't it?)

[Harison]

Basketball is played on two ends. Give me the guys who could dominate on the defensive end and near dominant scoring on the offensive end. So for me:

Duncan/KG
Barkley/Malone/Dirk

Numbers can only tell you so much. But the IMPACT of a great defender can't really be measured.
You and warriorfan got it right. Defense matters, and elite two-way bigs will always be more impactful than purely offensive players like Barkley or Dirk. To be fair, Malone was solid defensively (thats why I rank him above Barkley/Dirk), just not on the level of KG/TD.

[StephHamann]

GOAT career achievments Duncan

GOAT to build a team around KG

GOAT 4th quarter mamba closer Dirk

GOAT overweight Barkley

[Ben Simons]

There will never be a season that matches Garnett's all-around brilliance in 2004 again. That is the most complete season by anyone, EVER.
It was great, but it wasn't greatest of all time.

[Jasper]

Interesting how we look at certain positions and don't factor in the ring count :confusedshrug:

Without ring count my top 5 :

Duncan
Malone
Barkley
Rodman
DeBusschere

With rings :

Duncan
Rodman
Green
Barkley
Bosh

[DaHeezy]

Interesting how we look at certain positions and don't factor in the ring count :confusedshrug:

Without ring count my top 5 :

Duncan
Malone
Barkley
Rodman
DeBusschere

With rings :

Duncan
Rodman
Green
Barkley
Bosh

Interesting when people post in threads and don't read the content of the title and OP

[ArbitraryWater]

Between 2011 postseason and 2003 postseason Dirk/Duncan

[Bosnian Sajo]

Tim Duncan is clear cut #1, imo.


Just way too reliable, you could throw the ball down to him and let him go to work every time.

[tpols]

the almighty


http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f225/Stopshere/jesus-dirk.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/Stopshere/media/jesus-dirk.jpg.html)

[ArbitraryWater]

same

https://lobshots.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/dirkjesus.jpg

[TAZORAC]

It depends on what your team needs. They all can be equal. I PERFER GARNETT, because of his defense.

[Smoke117]

Anyone who thinks Dirk had the best peak is an idiot, period.

[Pointguard]

In my opinion, what separates great from the best is superlative performance in the postseason. Regular season dominance is necessary but not sufficient for GOAT status, and I think Dirk's 2011 performance puts him on top. To me, a single world-class performance is more important than sustained regular season dominance, or even several very good, but not superlative postseasons. I just never feel like KG, or even Duncan ever dominated in the way that Dirk did in 2011. I wasn't around to watch Barkley play, so I don't really have anything to say about him.
Duncan's lead his team in every meaningful stat on the way to a chip. His run was better than Dirk's because he was even stronger in the finals.

[rmt]

In my opinion, what separates great from the best is superlative performance in the postseason. Regular season dominance is necessary but not sufficient for GOAT status, and I think Dirk's 2011 performance puts him on top. To me, a single world-class performance is more important than sustained regular season dominance, or even several very good, but not superlative postseasons. I just never feel like KG, or even Duncan ever dominated in the way that Dirk did in 2011. I wasn't around to watch Barkley play, so I don't really have anything to say about him.

Do you really think that Dirk's 2011 playoff performance was better than Duncan's 2003 postseason?

2003 Playoffs

Duncan 24.7 pts 15.7 rebs 5.3 asst 3.3 blks 52.9%FG
led team in points, rebs, asst and blks
Parker, SJax and Manu had 1 year of playoff experience
Spurs' top 8 (without Duncan) had 29 years of NBA experience


2011 Playoffs

Dirk 27.7 pts 8.1 rebs 2.5 asst 0.6 blks 48.5%FG
led team in points
Terry, Marion and Kidd had 27 years of playoff experience
Mavs' top 8 (without Dirk) had 73 years of NBA experience

Seems to me that Duncan had to do a lot more heavy lifting than Dirk. Dirk had more support/experience around him. Duncan had a bunch of young, inexperienced players as his 2nd, 3rd and 4th option.

[Milbuck]

Duncan
KG
Dirk
Barkley
Malone

[MrFonzworth]

Kevin Love.

Currently at his peak, dropping 34+ in 1st Q, something no one else mentioned has done.

[Old Man River]

DUNCAN easy

today playing since he is retired? Yeah, Love.

[tpols]

Duncan's lead his team in every meaningful stat on the way to a chip. His run was better than Dirk's because he was even stronger in the finals.


Duncan also faced a far inferior team in those finals though..

[AussieSteve]

I just want to reiterate that this thread is not about who was the best/GOAT PF. TD is a lock for that title. It's about who as best at their best. And specifically who had the best 82 consecutive regular season games.


Do you really think that Dirk's 2011 playoff performance was better than Duncan's 2003 postseason?

2003 Playoffs

Duncan 24.7 pts 15.7 rebs 5.3 asst 3.3 blks 52.9%FG
led team in points, rebs, asst and blks
Parker, SJax and Manu had 1 year of playoff experience
Spurs' top 8 (without Duncan) had 29 years of NBA experience


2011 Playoffs

Dirk 27.7 pts 8.1 rebs 2.5 asst 0.6 blks 48.5%FG
led team in points
Terry, Marion and Kidd had 27 years of playoff experience
Mavs' top 8 (without Dirk) had 73 years of NBA experience

Seems to me that Duncan had to do a lot more heavy lifting than Dirk. Dirk had more support/experience around him. Duncan had a bunch of young, inexperienced players as his 2nd, 3rd and 4th option.

If you want to compare playoff performances, I have done the same analysis based on peak finals performance here...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=421961

And yes, Duncan's highest level in the playoffs was probably GOAT among PFs. Dirk's peak playoff level was actually in 2006, not 2011.

[rmt]

I just want to reiterate that this thread is not about who was the best/GOAT PF. TD is a lock for that title. It's about who as best at their best. And specifically who had the best 82 consecutive regular season games.



If you want to compare playoff performances, I have done the same analysis based on peak finals performance here...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=421961

And yes, Duncan's highest level in the playoffs was probably GOAT among PFs. Dirk's peak playoff level was actually in 2006, not 2011.

I know you have the other thread - just responding to his comment in this thread that Dirk's 2011 postseason performance puts him over the top (among PFs' postseasons).

[Cold soul]

That I have seen personally.

1) KG 04
2) Duncan 03
3) Barkley 90
3) Dirk 11
4) Malone 98

[AussieSteve]

I'm intrigued in seeing more

Do you think this is a good way to compare peaks? Should winning be more or less emphasized over box stats? Or do you think 50/50 (stats/win%) is apropriate?

Should the analysis be over more than 82 games?

I think I'll do the same analysis for shooting guards next.

[AussieSteve]

Including Kevin McHale...

Best 82 game stretch base on adding up basic stats

1. Garnett - 24.6ppg, 14.1rpg, 5.7apg, 1.3spg, 2.1bpg (14/2/03 -> 10/2/04)
2. Malone - 31.5ppg, 11.0rpg, 2.9apg, 1.6spg, 0.6bpg (8/4/89 -> 12/4/90)
3. Barkley - 23.3ppg, 15.0rpg, 5.1apg, 1.9spg, 1.6bpg (21/3/86 -> 7/11/87)
4. Duncan - 25.5ppg, 12.7rpg, 3.7apg, 0.7spg, 2.5bpg (30/10/01 -> 17/4/02)
5. Nowitzki - 26.2ppg, 9.9rpg, 3.0apg, 1.3spg, 1.6bpg (22/3/04 -> 1/4/05)
6. McHale - 25.9ppg, 9.8rpg, 2.5apg, 0.5spg, 2.2bpg (4/4/86 -> 17/4/87)

Best 82 game stretch base on average game score

1. Barkley - 25.43 (28.3ppg, 11.4rpg, 3.9apg, 1.8spg, 0.6bpg, 3.0tov, .660 TS%) (17/1/90 -> 1/2/91)
2. Malone - 24.47 (31.5ppg, 11.0rpg, 2.9apg, 1.6spg, 0.6bpg, 3.7tov, .632 TS%) (8/4/89 -> 12/4/90)
3. Garnett - 22.88 (24.4ppg, 14.0rpg, 5.4apg, 1.7spg, 2.0bpg, 2.8tov, .554 TS%) (7/12/03 -> 10/12/04)
4. McHale - 22.21 (25.9ppg, 9.8rpg, 2.5apg, 0.5spg, 2.2bpg, 2.5tov, .663 TS%) (11/4/86 -> 4/12/87)
5. Nowitzki - 21.72 (26.8ppg, 9.7rpg, 3.4apg, 0.8spg, 0.9bpg, 2.0tov, .609 TS%) (23/2/06 -> 24/2/07)
6. Duncan - 21.63 (25.5ppg, 12.7rpg, 3.7apg, 0.7spg, 2.5bpg, 3.2tov, .576 TS%) (30/10/01 -> 17/4/02)

Best 82 game stretch base on average game score adjusted for win %

1. Barkley - 21.51 (57 wins, 28.0ppg, 11.3rpg, 4.0apg, 1.8spg, 0.6bpg, 3.1tov .665 TS%) (8/1/90 -> 5/1/91)
2. Malone - 20.74 (57 wins, 31.5ppg, 11.0rpg, 2.9apg, 1.6spg, 0.6bpg, 3.7tov, .632 TS%) (8/4/89 -> 12/4/90)
3. Garnett - 19.81 (60 wins, 24.4ppg, 14.0rpg, 5.4apg, 1.7spg, 2.0bpg, 2.8tov, .554 TS%) (7/12/03 -> 10/12/04)
4. McHale - 19.32 (64 wins, 25.4ppg, 9.4rpg, 2.6apg, 0.5spg, 2.2bpg, 2.5tov, .663 TS%) (11/3/86 -> 13/3/87)
5. Nowitzki - 19.29 (65 wins, 26.4ppg, 9.7rpg, 3.4apg, 0.8spg, 0.9bpg, 2.0tov, .607 TS%) (7/3/06 -> 11/3/07)
6. Duncan - 18.55 (64 wins, 23.6ppg, 13.2rpg, 3.7apg, 0.7spg, 2.9bpg, 3.0tov .557 TS%) (21/12/02 -> 26/12/03)

At his best, McHale was damn good!!! According to this, he had the fourth best peak 82 game peak of any PF in the last 40 years. He was an exceptional defender also. Probably underrated because of who he played alongside.

Something else I notice is that game score definitely rewards efficient scoring. Barkley, Malone and McHale were very efficient scorers. By comparison Garnett and Duncan were far less efficient, which detracts from their game score, despite their raw stats being comparable (or even better in KG's case).

[AussieSteve]

Im no duncan fan but you need to respect

He was a monster in his hayday

Two way dominance, something that Dirk/Barkley/Malone were missing

Dirk is an underated defender though

Barkley was such an ass defender, he was arguably better offensively than dirk but just so shitty defensively...seriously the worst....peep any full game of barkley and try to refute this shit....you cannot...was the absolute worst defender of all time at the power forward position

I was thinking more about more about defense and how it relates to this ranking. You (and others) are saying that Malone, Dirk and particularly Barkley are overrated, and KG adn TD are underated, because their defense is not accounted for.

First of all, obviously KG and TD were vastly superior defenders to Barkley, and I don't completely disagree with the point, but I think you're overstating it. IMO an elite scorer/offensive talent is more valuable than an elite defender. As an example James Harden is probably the worst defender I have ever seen, but the Rockets are still on track for 50 wins, because he is great offensively. But if you removed Harden from the team, and replace him with a guy who has no offensive game at all, but is a DPOY level defensive specialist , how many games would they win?... not many!! A single elite offensive player has the opportunity to score or set up a play on every possession, but an elite defender can't guard everyone at once and can't influence every (or even most) defensive possessions.

In this ranking, a player's impact is measured by
1. Their stats, which to a small extent considers defense (BLKs, STLs, DREBs), and
2. The number of wins the team has, which will be affected by the player's overall play including defense.

Barkley is clearly the best PF ever offensively, the stats show this pretty categorically. If he was a detriment to the team defensively, it would show up in the number of wins his team had and he would be penalized for it. As it stands Duncan had 7 more wins than Barkley during their respective peaks in the OP, and when you consider the roster Barkley played with in 1990, compared to what Duncan had around him in 2002 - 03, all I'm saying is that the defensive gap between them isn't as important as people make out.

I am not saying that Barkley, or any other PF, were better than Duncan, but I think it is perfectly legitimate to assert that Barkley's peak was the highest of any PF. IMO this analysis suggests that it probably was - at least in terms of regular season performance.

As an aside, TD's playoff peak was probably GOAT among PFs, as detailed in the playoff version of this thread.

[aj1987]

I was thinking more about more about defense and how it relates to this ranking. You (and others) are saying that Malone, Dirk and particularly Barkley are overrated, and KG adn TD are underated, because their defense is not accounted for.

First of all, obviously KG and TD were vastly superior defenders to Barkley, and I don't completely disagree with the point, but I think you're overstating it. IMO an elite scorer/offensive talent is more valuable than an elite defender. As an example James Harden is probably the worst defender I have ever seen, but the Rockets are still on track for 50 wins, because he is great offensively. But if you removed Harden from the team, and replace him with a guy who has no offensive game at all, but is a DPOY level defensive specialist , how many games would they win?... not many!! A single elite offensive player has the opportunity to score or set up a play on every possession, but an elite defender can't guard everyone at once and can't influence every (or even most) defensive possessions.

In this ranking, a player's impact is measured by
1. Their stats, which to a small extent considers defense (BLKs, STLs, DREBs), and
2. The number of wins the team has, which will be affected by the player's overall play including defense.

Barkley is clearly the best PF ever offensively, the stats show this pretty categorically. If he was a detriment to the team defensively, it would show up in the number of wins his team had and he would be penalized for it. As it stands Duncan had 7 more wins than Barkley during their respective peaks in the OP, and when you consider the roster Barkley played with in 1990, compared to what Duncan had around him in 2002 - 03, all I'm saying is that the defensive gap between them isn't as important as people make out.

I am not saying that Barkley, or any other PF, were better than Duncan, but I think it is perfectly legitimate to assert that Barkley's peak was the highest of any PF. IMO this analysis suggests that it probably was - at least in terms of regular season performance.

As an aside, TD's playoff peak was probably GOAT among PFs, as detailed in the playoff version of this thread.
:biggums: :biggums:

TD and KG were still amazing offensively. You post would make sense if we were comparing CB and Dirk to Rodman or someone like that.

[ArbitraryWater]

That I have seen personally.

1) KG 04
2) Duncan 03
3) Barkley 90
3) Dirk 11
4) Malone 98

Barkley was trashed in the second round, you didnt see that shit at all.

[AussieSteve]

Barkley was trashed in the second round, you didnt see that shit at all.

First of all, Chuck averaged 24/17/5 on 58 ts% during that series, so he didn't underperform, he just had no help because he was playing with a bunch of scrubs. And for some reason Jordan always reserved his most otherworldly performances for series against Barkley. MJ averaged 43/7/7 that series... No one is beating that Bulls team with Jordan playing at that level, unless they have significant help around them.

Secondly, his performance in that series has nothing to do with his overall level during 1990 regular season games, which is what this thread is about.

[ArbitraryWater]

First of all, Chuck averaged 24/17/5 on 58 ts% during that series, so he didn't underperform, he just had no help because he was playing with a bunch of scrubs. And for some reason Jordan always reserved his most otherworldly performances for series against Barkley. MJ averaged 43/7/7 that series... No one is beating that Bulls team with Jordan playing at that level, unless they have significant help around them.

Secondly, his performance in that series has nothing to do with his overall level during 1990 regular season games, which is what this thread is about.

sry, thought this was the postseason thread (then his post makes no sense with the Malone mention)