I haven't gotten a single response to this simple question

[3ball]

.
Why did Lebron's 3 rings require him to score 20% LESS in the playoffs than Jordan's first 3 rings, with only EQUAL assists, and worse efficiency across the board (ts, fg, ortg, PER)???

Basically, why was Jordan required to do far more for his rings (25% more scoring on better efficiency, with equal assists)?

(all stats shown here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12679667&postcount=37))

Of course, I know I'll never get a response for why 1989 Jordan achieved the same stats as 2009 Lebron, but won 19 less games :facepalm ... The 19-win gap wasn't ONLY be due to Lebron's weaker conference.. It must be due to his better supporting cast as well (an all-star guard, former all-star center, and far better role players... compared to... NOTHING for Jordan).

[Dray n Klay]

Because LeBron was able to foster better team chemistry and optimal team offense to win his rings, otoh Jordan lowered his teammates ceilings as well as ability to win, requiring him to put up more stats in order to compensate.





Proof?


LeBron won last year with 0 all-star teammates







While Jordan LOST in 1990 with an all-star in Pippen.







So Jordan loses with all-star teammates, while LeBron can win while having no all-stars on his roster, that means LeBron was MORE impactful than Jordan.


















How is this possible?

It can only be because LeBron can better accommodate his teammates and allow them to play optimally, while Jordan ruins team chemistry forcing him to have to put up more stats, and STILL lose, like in 1990


:confusedshrug:

[FKAri]

Because Lebron sets up his teammates for success and allowed them to be play makers instead of play finishers. :D

[lilteapot]

Don't get mad at Lebron just because the only way Jordan thought he could affect the game was by scoring :confusedshrug:

[SouBeachTalents]

Because Jordan went 1-9

[Prometheus]

Because Jordan was really good, even better than LeBron

[scm5]

Because Lebron's teams that won have been absolutely stacked and anyone denying it is a stan blinded by unyielding love for the man.

Wade and Bosh were both Top 5 PER players (Top 4 if we're being precise) the year before they joined Lebron. Pippen was never a Top 5 PER player in the league.

Kyrie and Love were not all-stars last season, but they were both all-star caliber players coming back from injuries and were fully recovered by the playoffs. If you say otherwise, you're simply manipulating facts to prop up Lebron, which is understandable because when comparing Lebron to Jordan, he comes up short.

Kyrie: 21/4/6 (averaged for his career before joining Lebron)
Love: 26/13 (Put these kind of numbers up for full seasons, twice)

Jordan started winning in 1990-91 with Pippen only capable of putting up 18/7/6 and a Horace Grant putting up 13/8. Soak that in.

Lebron stans were complaining about Wade putting up 22/5/5 and Bosh putting up 17/8.

[egokiller]

Because Lebron sets up his teammates for success and allowed them to be play makers instead of play finishers. :D

Sounds like that formula works that less than half the time, hence 3/7.

It's too bad he wasn't talented enough to take MJ's approach which results in 6/6 with 6 FMVP without even allowing a game 7. Once I saw lebron in 2011 finals, I knew he'd never surpass GOAT MJ.

The fact that this guy can start off his career going 1-9 and wind up 6/6 with 6 FMVP is the greatest thing in sports that anyone has ever seen.

What
a
Legend

[Meticode]

Pretty simple. LeBron played with one of the best ISO players at the time in Wade, then he played with Kyrie. Both of those players during that time were elite ISO players who could turn something out of nothing. Who did Jordan play with that was going to ISO as much as either Wade or Kyrie? No one. Less points and less assists for LeBron.

[egokiller]

Pretty simple. LeBron played with one of the best ISO players at the time in Wade, then he played with Kyrie. Both of those players during that time were elite ISO players who could turn something out of nothing. Who did Jordan play with that was going to ISO as much as either Wade or Kyrie? No one. Less points and less assists for LeBron.

How does one do worse despite having more?
How was MJ able to accomplish more despite having less?

[lilteapot]

How does one do worse despite having more?
How was MJ able to accomplish more despite having less?

How have you managed to accomplish nothing in your entire life?

[Meticode]

How does one do worse despite having more?
How was MJ able to accomplish more despite having less?
Different styles of play. As someone said earlier LeBron had team-mates that were play makers and that's the way the offense was ran. If LeBron wasn't in the play or initiating the play, then another play maker was (ie: Wade or Irving). Jordan never had ISO teammates like LeBron did nor did he play with scorers LeBron did either.

[3ball]

Who did Jordan play with that was going to ISO as much as either Wade or Kyrie? No one. Less points and less assists for LeBron.


I see.. So Lebron had more help.

Thanks for the answer.. But it's incomplete.. Lebron also dominates the ball, so he couldn't achieve his max stats alongside another ball-dominator like Wade or Kyrie..

Otoh, even though it was proven (http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/) that Jordan had GOAT point guard capabilities, he was an OFF-BALL shooting guard, who could achieve his maximum stats alongside a dribbler like Pippen..

So Jordan achieved his maximum stats, and his off-ball game allowed Pippen to do the same - with both guys playing to full capacity, the TEAM achieved their maximum production, which resulted in never underachieving EVER (never losing unless they were the PROHIBITIVE underdog.. never losing with HCA... 6/6).

btw, you forgot Bosh - he was a great iso player as well that was turned into a spot-up shooter alongside Lebron.. Jordan's off-ball game would've allowed Bosh to achieve better stats, which would've made the Heat a FAR better team (4/4 instead of 2/4... again, never underachieving).

[egokiller]

How have you managed to accomplish nothing in your entire life?

Oh look. Lilteapot came out of his safe space after secluding himself for weeks due to Trump winning the election. :roll:

Oh well. Back in your hole knowing that what I accomplish in 1 day is greater than what you accomplish in an entire life span.

*yawn*

[Hey Yo]

Because Lebron's teams that won have been absolutely stacked and anyone denying it is a stan blinded by unyielding love for the man.

Wade and Bosh were both Top 5 PER players (Top 4 if we're being precise) the year before they joined Lebron. Pippen was never a Top 5 PER player in the league.

Kyrie and Love were not all-stars last season, but they were both all-star caliber players coming back from injuries and were fully recovered by the playoffs. If you say otherwise, you're simply manipulating facts to prop up Lebron, which is understandable because when comparing Lebron to Jordan, he comes up short.

Kyrie: 21/4/6 (averaged for his career before joining Lebron)
Love: 26/13 (Put these kind of numbers up for full seasons, twice)

Jordan started winning in 1990-91 with Pippen only capable of putting up 18/7/6 and a Horace Grant putting up 13/8. Soak that in.

Lebron stans were complaining about Wade putting up 22/5/5 and Bosh putting up 17/8.
Stopped reading, started :oldlol:

[egokiller]

Different styles of play. As someone said earlier LeBron had team-mates that were play makers and that's the way the offense was ran. If LeBron wasn't in the play or initiating the play, then another play maker was (ie: Wade or Irving). Jordan never had ISO teammates like LeBron did nor did he play with scorers LeBron did either.

So at the end of the day Jordan became more successful utilizing what little he had to work with relative to Lebron utilizing what he had to work with.

You know it. I know it. 3ball knows it. Anyone who understands what it takes to be GOAT knows it.

Now can we get the rest of these fakkits to understand it so that they stop melting down and causing 3ball to have to repeat himself. :roll:

[Prometheus]

Oh look. Lilteapot came out of his safe space after secluding himself for weeks due to Trump winning the election. :roll:

Oh well. Back in your hole knowing that what I accomplish in 1 day is greater than what you accomplish in an entire life span.

*yawn*

It seems like you get into personal pissing contests in every thread. So cringeworthy. You are a loser

[egokiller]

It seems like you get into personal pissing contests in every thread. So cringeworthy. You are a loser

Says the loser who's taken a personal interest in something that I shrug off like it's nothing. :roll:

Meanwhile, this is an example of your cringeworthy personal pissing contest with a guy that is trolling the shit out of you:


I CAN touch rim! ( barely ) ... unfortunately i am under 6' tall. Cant dunk :( but i have been doing mma for 9 years, have tremendous cardio, and would bet a grand on myself in a fight against anyone on this board.

Dude... plowking ****ing sucks at basketball. Did you not watch the video of him and poido playing 1on1? The guy is extremely stiff. Idk why youre sticking up for him. You an alt? Doesnt seem like it, but idk why else you would defend him with absurd claims like that he is a "legit baller". That makes me think you cant play worth shit either

[knicksman]

Lebron is a coward. Jordan/Kobe arent

[Hey Yo]

.
Why did Lebron's 3 rings require him to score 20% LESS in the playoffs than Jordan's first 3 rings, with only EQUAL assists, and worse efficiency across the board (ts, fg, ortg, PER)???

Basically, why was Jordan required to do far more for his rings (25% more scoring on better efficiency, with equal assists)?

(all stats shown here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12679667&postcount=37))

Of course, I know I'll never get a response for why 1989 Jordan achieved the same stats as 2009 Lebron, but won 19 less games :facepalm ... The 19-win gap wasn't ONLY be due to Lebron's weaker conference.. It must be due to his better supporting cast as well (an all-star guard, former all-star center, and far better role players... compared to... NOTHING for Jordan).
Jordan was able to focus more on scoring for his 6 rings cause he had Pippen who was assigned to shut down the oppositions biggest scoring threat. Plus he had the multiple rebounding champion/All-NBA DEFENSE in Rodman

LeBron never had a teammate who achieved All-NBA defense player after any reg. season they played together or a combined rebounding champion/All-NBA defense

LeBron never had a teammate for multiple seasons who achieved this:

3

[3ball]

Plus he had All-NBA DEFENSE in Rodman


Rodman didn't make ANY all-defensive teams in 1997 or 1998.. So Jordan won 4 rings without an all-defense PF (91, 92, 97, 98).

In addition to Rodman not being all-defense, Jordan won rings with Rodman contributing NOTHING on offense.. That's how we know the 2nd three-peat Bulls had the greatest teamwork of all time - they achieved the highest ORtg's ever, with a 3 ppg power forward... :confusedshrug:

This type of unbeatable, goat teamwork isn't possible on a Lebron-led team, since his presence lowers his teammates' apg, causing his teams to rank outside of the top 10 assists every single year.





Jordan was able to focus more on scoring for his 6 rings cause he had Pippen who was assigned to shut down the oppositions biggest scoring threat.


Jordan was assigned to guard Magic, Drexler, Gary Payton, and Reggie Miller, while Pippen was assigned to guard Worthy, Kersey, Schrempf and the slowest PG of all time Mark Jackson.

Those are the facts.

So Jordan was assigned to the opponents' best perimeter player... Nice try tho

[K.dot ShowTime]

How have you managed to accomplish nothing in your entire life?

:roll: :roll:

[egokiller]

So Jordan was assigned to the opponents' best perimeter player... Nice try tho

https://media.giphy.com/media/nqRJTIwsBftG8/giphy.gif

[3ball]

.
Lebron plays with better isolation players, but he also dominates the ball, so he couldn't achieve his max stats alongside another ball-dominator like Wade or Kyrie..

Otoh, Jordan was an OFF-BALL shooting guard, who off-ball style allowed him to achieve his maximum stats alongside a dribbler like Pippen..

So Jordan's off-ball game allowed him to achieved his maximum stats, and it allowed Pippen to do the same - with both guys playing to full capacity, the TEAM achieved their maximum production, which resulted in never underachieving, ever (never losing unless they were the PROHIBITIVE underdog.. never losing with HCA... 6/6).

btw, Wade and Kyrie weren't the only good isolation players that Lebron played with - let's not forget Bosh.. He was a great iso player as well, that was turned into a spot-up shooter alongside Lebron.. Otoh, Jordan's off-ball game would've allowed Bosh to play to full capacity, which would've made the Heat TEAM play to full capacity and never underachieve (4/4 instead of 2/4... again, Jordan's teams virtually never underachieved).

[Marchesk]

Otoh, Jordan was an OFF-BALL shooting guard, who off-ball style allowed him to achieve his maximum stats alongside a dribbler like Pippen..

How would you rate Jordan's off-ball passing amongst the all-time great assisters?

[tpols]

How would you rate Jordan's off-ball passing amongst the all-time great assisters?


its nice, but I would say Jordan's off ball ball handling is his most amazing trait.

[iamgine]

I'd say OP receive plenty of responses.

[Hey Yo]

Rodman didn't make ANY all-defensive teams in 1997 or 1998.. So Jordan won 4 rings without an all-defense PF (91, 92, 97, 98).

In addition to Rodman not being all-defense, Jordan won rings with Rodman contributing NOTHING on offense.. That's how we know the 2nd three-peat Bulls had the greatest teamwork of all time - they achieved the highest ORtg's ever, with a 3 ppg power forward... :confusedshrug:

This type of unbeatable, goat teamwork isn't possible on a Lebron-led team, since his presence lowers his teammates' apg, causing his teams to rank outside of the top 10 assists every single year.



Jordan was assigned to guard Magic, Drexler, Gary Payton, and Reggie Miller, while Pippen was assigned to guard Worthy, Kersey, Schrempf and the slowest PG of all time Mark Jackson.

Those are the facts.

So Jordan was assigned to the opponents' best perimeter player... Nice try tho
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/bulls/pippen_magic_1991.jpg


"In the Chicago’s first-ever NBA Finals appearance, Scottie Pippen took the primary responsibility of guarding Magic Johnson in 1991 versus the Los Angeles Lakers.

Pippen’s stellar defensive effort altered the scope of the series and set the standard for teams searching for a taller, more athletic point guard to shut down opposing point guards.

During the regular season, Pippen gave the term “point forward” a new meaning after leading the team in assists and ranking second in scoring, rebounding and steals. Quite simply, Scottie did it all.

At first, Head Coach Phil Jackson designated Jordan to guard Johnson, with relief help from Pippen.

"It's tough to guard Magic and then go down and be expected to carry the load offensively," Jordan said following the series opener. "It's a challenge, but I have to do it."

However, things changed in Game 2 when the Bulls discovered a new defensive stopper. Pippen switched over onto Johnson after Jordan picked up his second personal foul in the first quarter and did an outstanding job on the Lakers' star, pestering him into 4-for-13 shooting.

The Bulls dropped the opening game in Chicago, (WHEN MJ WAS GUARDING MAGIC) but wouldn’t lose again, taking the series, 4-1. Pippen led all scorers in the decisive fifth game with 32 points and 13 boards and averaged 21.6 points, 8.9 rebounds, 5.8 assists, and 2.47 steals in 17 postseason games as Chicago earned its first title in its 25 years of existence.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippen10_1991.html





Jordan was able to focus more on scoring for his 6 rings cause he had Pippen who was assigned to shut down the oppositions biggest scoring threat. Plus he had the multiple rebounding champion/All-NBA DEFENSE in Rodman

LeBron never had a teammate who achieved All-NBA defense player after any reg. season they played together or a combined rebounding champion/All-NBA defense

LeBron never had a teammate for multiple seasons who achieved this:

3

[bigkingsfan]

Usage

[MrFonzworth]

How would you rate Jordan's off-ball passing amongst the all-time great assisters?


its nice, but I would say Jordan's off ball ball handling is his most amazing trait.

:lol :lol :lol

[AirBonner]

OP you can't have an opinion on a modern basketball player when you have never watched modern basketball. stfu.

[scm5]

OP you can't have an opinion on a modern basketball player when you have never watched modern basketball. stfu.

Oh man, you really got him there

[3ball]

"In the Chicago’s first-ever NBA Finals appearance, Scottie Pippen took the primary responsibility of guarding Magic Johnson in 1991 versus the Los Angeles Lakers.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippen10_1991.html



That report is inaccurate - this has been analyzed on various forums, like realgm (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1261129#p36419034) and ISH (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12198529&postcount=41).. Jordan guarded Magic for 70% of the series, compared to 25% for Pippen




DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENTS BY QUARTER, 1991 FINALS:

Pippen guarded Magic for:

GAME 1: none
GAME 2: 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters
GAME 3: 2nd and 3rd quarters
GAME 4: the last 4 minutes of 4th quarter
GAME 5: none

Here's all 5 games in their entirety:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncUC9fSFdik
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S6AWPT6fG0
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueGQChyFuU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO0LJVxaqD0
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNFQSBUe5c


Overall, MJ guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (70%), compared to only 5 of 20 for Pippen (20%).



So again, JORDAN was assigned to guard Magic, Drexler, Payton, and Reggie Miller, while Pippen was assigned to Worthy (who torched him), Kersey, Schrempf, and the slowest PG ever Mark Jackson.

[egokiller]

Hey Yo, please watch the games so you can educate yourself on what the breakdown was of the defensive assignments on Magic that series. It's common knowledge that Jordan covered Magic much more than Pippen did.