Hakeem the Dream vs Tim Duncan

[GOBB]

Who is better? We got the Shaq vs Tim topics. Well lets see how people view this matchup. Poetry in motion where thou art ewe?

[poeticism707]

Who is better? We got the Shaq vs Tim topics. Well lets see how people view this matchup. Poetry in motion where thou art ewe?

Here I come GOBB!

:cheers:

[AtTheDriveIn]

Not another one. Poeticism please don't bump this one to death like you have the other thread.

Hakeem is better! Done!

[Kebab Stall]

Thank you for something different for once. It makes a change from the thousands of Kobe v Jordan v Lebron threads.

Anyway this is a tough choice, both guys were/are excellent players. If I had to choose one or the other based upon their achievements, then obviously Duncan would be the first choice. 2 MVPs, 3 championships, 3 finals MVPs and a potential 4th championship and 4th finals MVP. Compared to Hakeem's 1 MVP, 2 championships and 2 finals MVPs.

Both guys excell(ed) at all aspects of the game. But if I had to choose based on what the player done on the hardwood I would take Hakeem. An aray of low post spins, fakes, passes and fade-away's to dazzle the oponent made Hakeem pretty much unstoppable down low.

[PejaNowitzki]

Hakeem. While Duncan is terrific in the post, and very good at what he does, Hakeem was unbelievable, and damn near unstoppable. The guy had strength and speed and could go around you in a heartbeat.

[poeticism707]

Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:

Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7

Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.

One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.

[AtTheDriveIn]

Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:

Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7

Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.

One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.

You just base everything on accolades and not actual play. There's no point in arguing with you when you don't know what you're talking about.

[poeticism707]

You just base everything on accolades and not actual play. There's no point in arguing with you when you don't know what you're talking about.

There is no point in arguing when you are arguing legend, and I am arguing facts.

[allball]

Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:

Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7

Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.

One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.

no matter how you slice it, Hakeem in his prime would give Duncan fits. no way TD could guard the Dream Shake and what defender has Duncan seen that is equal to the Dream. I dont know about the Jordan factor but the West opponents were brutal and Hakeem's teammates weren't always consistenly good.

TD has the accomplishments but for individual talent no doubt the Dream is the better player and would win the matchup.

[snipes12]

Hakeem will scHool TD just like wHat He did witH,robinson,sHaq,Ewing

[Kebab Stall]

TD has the accomplishments but for individual talent no doubt the Dream is the better player and would win the matchup.
That sums it up perfectly.

[PejaNowitzki]

Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:

Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7

Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.

One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.



What the hell do accolades have to do with individual play? Robert Horry has more titles than Duncan and Hakeem combined.


Robert Horry<<<<<<<<<Duncan and Hakeem........at least according to your logic.



However, based on having seen them both play extensively, I would take Hakeem, without a single doubt in my mind.

[LJJ]

What the hell do accolades have to do with individual play? Robert Horry has more titles than Duncan and Hakeem combined.


Robert Horry<<<<<<<<<Duncan and Hakeem........at least according to your logic.

Just so you know: When people talk about titles they usually mean "Titles as a team leader".

:rollingeyes:

[poeticism707]

Just so you know: When people talk about titles they usually mean "Titles as a team leader".

:rollingeyes:

:applause:

[Da KO King]

Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard....


So media voted awards and accolades mean Duncan is better than Olajuwon? Good to know.

So, if I decide to make a thread stating that Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar are lightyears ahead of Duncan I expect your support fully.

[baseketball4life]

these 2 players are so similar

[Dynasty]

Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:

Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7

Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.

One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.

Funny how your initial statement says "not even close" yet the stats YOU posted show it is very close. Think before ye type. Anyway I choose Hakeem. He was just more clutch down the stretch. He has a history of hitting more clutch baskets +game winners + free throws than Tim Duncan does.

[SsKSpurs21]

Duncan is the millenium version of hakeem. in Duncans first few years he was just as fast as hakeem was and he has also maintained that level of excellence over a long career like hakeem. the similarities are very parallel.

i guess i would take tim duncan because iam bias. cant really go against my own guy here.


the injustice here is that in 20-30 years when people look back and see duncans overall accomplishments and compare them to hakeem, he will look far superior because people who havent seen them play will go purely on stats and awards.

[brantonli]

This as a compromise:

Skillwise:

Hakeem>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tim Duncan

Accolades-wise:

Tim Duncan>Hakeem Olajuwon.


Hakeem is probably the most atheletic center on the top 10 list of centers, his fakes are just so inventive that even God himself won't be able to see through them, and he's got range like its nothing (see 3 pointer against Orlando). Hakeem is Finesse 5.0, while duncan is Finesse 2.5. Duncan may be the greatest PF, but the Dream is better skillwise.

Hakeem's lack of team success may be attributed to Duncan landing in the right organisation, able to contribute from the very beginning (Olajuwon was in a similar situation early on, but the managment messed up spectacularly during his middle years) and being in a system that benefited him the most.

[Loki]

Did I just hear someone suggest that in his first few years Duncan was as fats as Dream? :oldlol:

Duncan was very quick for a 6'11"/7' guy, but not on Dream's level.

[SsKSpurs21]

Did I just hear someone suggest that in his first few years Duncan was as fats as Dream? :oldlol:

Duncan was very quick for a 6'11"/7' guy, but not on Dream's level.

i didnt say he was faster, i said just as fast. watch some of his early footage.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-hMS2xpant0

[Loki]

i didnt say he was faster, i said just as fast.

And I didn't say that you said he was "faster," only "as fast as" him. :D :banana:

[wTFaMonkey]

Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:

Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7

Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.

One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.

soo who is duncans competition again? hakeem at his prime was in the "big man" era. the dream would make yao ming look stupid if he was playing in his prime right now

[EricForman]

Who is better? We got the Shaq vs Tim topics. Well lets see how people view this matchup. Poetry in motion where thou art ewe?


Since Hakeem is a bit overrated on ISH (people still insist he should be ranked higher than Shaq on all time list... LOL WTF. shaq surpassed Hakeem like 6 years ago)

I think this thread will be overwhelmingly in Hakeem's favor with 90% sayign "Hakeem and it's not even close".

Well they'd br wrong.

Cause first, it is VERY close, and second, Duncan will probably retire with the highest regular season win average/% and 4-5 rings....

[SsKSpurs21]

And I didn't say that you said he was "faster," only "as fast as" him.

i see. i dont know. i feel he was just as fast. maybe i have my homer glasses on but thats the way i feel.

[Da KO King]

Since Hakeem is a bit overrated on ISH...
So I can expect you to also co-sign my future thread about Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar both being easily better than Duncan.

[Hoonyo]

Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:

Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7

Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg
How can you say 'its not even close' then post numbers that refute your statement?

Aside from the All-NBA First Team/DPOY, those numbers are very close.

Edit: There were better big men in the NBA during Hakeem's years than Duncan's.

[IGOTGAME]

i see. i dont know. i feel he was just as fast. maybe i have my homer glasses on but thats the way i feel.

Hakeem was fast like a guard...Not even close

[allball]

Since Hakeem is a bit overrated on ISH (people still insist he should be ranked higher than Shaq on all time list... LOL WTF. shaq surpassed Hakeem like 6 years ago)

I think this thread will be overwhelmingly in Hakeem's favor with 90% sayign "Hakeem and it's not even close".

Well they'd br wrong.

Cause first, it is VERY close, and second, Duncan will probably retire with the highest regular season win average/% and 4-5 rings....

if you factor in defense there is no way you say Shaq surpassed Hakeem. Shaq was the most dominant offensive threat but defensively no way. Hakeem never had a Kobe or Wade either or a Magic or Jerry West. Clyde was past his prime.all time lists are based on opinions bro not science.

[SsKSpurs21]

if you factor in defense there is no way you say Shaq surpassed Hakeem. Shaq was the most dominant offensive threat but defensively no way. Hakeem never had a Kobe or Wade either or a Magic or Jerry West. Clyde was past his prime.all time lists are based on opinions bro not science.

so in his opinion, he feels shaq surpassed hakeem...now what? we let the insults fly? :confusedshrug:

[dawsey6]

Hakeem in his prime would really take it to Duncan in his prime. Not saying he would kill him, because that would be a REALLY good matchup, but Hakeem would beat out Duncan. As great a player as Duncan is, Hakeem was just so much more talented, it was insane.

[Dizzle-2k7]

both are legends, but duncans career is much more dominant than hakeems 2-3 years of dominance.

tim duncan got his rings against the prime shaq/kobe duo. hakeem never even got his chance to go against jordan.

4 rings > 2 rings.

[hateraid]

Give poeticism credit for laying down the stats. Yes, stats don't tell the story, but it's funny how people use that argument when they argue for "their" player. Also give him credit for actually summing up an argument rather than," Hakeem is better, take my word for it," argument. Tell you the truth I've been around for both their careers and I'd take Duncan for a smidgen myself.
You can't use the competition arugument. Although yes, Dream had Ewing Shaq,and Admiral, but let's not take away from as prime Webber, prime Sheed, prime Nowitzki, they both had Shaq, but Laker Shaq was far better and on a more dominant Laker team than early Orlando. Also please don't take away level of competition in both eras. Yeah, Hakeem's era had the legendary status, the same status that blinds our judgment when it comes to comparing. we always seem to rate the legends miles ahead of todays competition. It's not that far off.
Accolades do tell part of the story. It show your ability to lead a team and create you own legendary status. Statistics aslo show your performance against elite competition. So taking into account of the accolades, Duncan has been doing what he's doing longer and with more consistancy. With those accolades piled up, and no doubt in my mind he will ad to his acheivments for at least 4 or five more years. His body is a warrior, barely ever gets injured, does his thing, even though he's less physically gift compared to Hakeem in the athleticism and speed department.
Supporting cast. Hakeem had the better teams. Yeah, you can say, Ducan had Admiral, but at the same points of their career (supporting cast) hakeem also had a hungry Barkley, and Pip, and a Drexler. Even with their combonation of what seemed the best compliment of legends, Hakeem didn't lead the team to glory. It's arguable Duncan may have, but he has lead a weaker team against what seemed to be an invincable Lakers team.
So you can see any argument can be debunked whether it be accolades, competition, or supporting cast. It's how you put your personal spin on it. You can't just come in and say ," hakeem is way better, I've seen them play." Where the evidence and the back-up statement? My dad saw Dr.J in his prime and many older people, who are die hard fans, are convinced that Julius Erving was a way better individual player than Jordan. So, we can't debunk that argument because we judge players from the past on stories or reputation, and in to most the degree, accolades.
So who would I take? Duncan. He's just the more consistant player, and has been doing it a top level longer. I like dependability. It's a good foundation to lay your team upon. Keep in mind the fact that Duncan played all four years in college, shortening the time span in which he could have racked up more accolades early in his career. And he most certainly will achieve more.
With that all said, Go Cavs!

[brantonli]

Lol, sorry to nitpick hateraid, but please don't mention Scottie Quitten as a Rocket. As far as we are concerned, he never signed the dotted line.

[hateraid]

Lol, sorry to nitpick hateraid, but please don't mention Scottie Quitten as a Rocket. As far as we are concerned, he never signed the dotted line.

lol, go ahead, I'm sure many people would agree with you.

[JtotheIzzo]

Duncan is better than Hakeem

there I said it, feels good too...now let me explain why, because so often, us here at ISH love to big up thepast in our revisionist history.

-Sure Hakeem had a nice post up game, but guess what, so does Duncan, it may not be as pretty but it yields the same results.

-Both are great defenders, potentialy all NBA defense every season, so this area is a push.

-Both have rings, but TD has more, and at a time where his conference was the stronger conference.

-The difference in my opinion is Duncan's range out to twenty two feet. Hakeem never had the ability to kill a team from the wing or the top of the key with jumpers like TD can, this is the difference, everything else is close or a push.

Timmy is better

get over yourselves.

[hateraid]

Duncan is better than Hakeem

there I said it, feels good too...now let me explain why, because so often, us here at ISH love to big up thepast in our revisionist history.

-Sure Hakeem had a nice post up game, but guess what, so does Duncan, it may not be as pretty but it yields the same results.

-Both are great defenders, potentialy all NBA defense every season, so this area is a push.

-Both have rings, but TD has more, and at a time where his conference was the stronger conference.

-The difference in my opinion is Duncan's range out to twenty two feet. Hakeem never had the ability to kill a team from the wing or the top of the key with jumpers like TD can, this is the difference, everything else is close or a push.

Timmy is better

get over yourselves.


Great minds think alike. :cheers: Our argument are very similar. You gotta like the consistancy of Duncan too.

[dhenk]

Tim Duncan is -I hate to say it - better thn the dream...
But imo,hakeem and robinson,especially hakeem,revolutionized the center position with their passing skills...

[JtotheIzzo]

Great minds think alike. :cheers: Our argument are very similar. You gotta like the consistancy of Duncan too.

I just read your post (I added my two cents after reading the thread starter)

well done old boy

[hateraid]

Tim Duncan is -I hate to say it - better thn the dream...
But imo,hakeem and robinson,especially hakeem,revolutionized the center position with their passing skills...

Don't feel bad for saying it. Yeah, it feels like you're disrespecting your elders, but you have eyes, a brain, so come up with your own conclusion.:cheers:

[Lakerz_Forever]

Hakeem

[dhenk]

Don't feel bad for saying it. Yeah, it feels like you're disrespecting your elders, but you have eyes, a brain, so come up with your own conclusion.:cheers:

No,I

[nngh]

Of course it's always the current players (especially if they happen to play for your team) who are better than those elders ><

yawn

[miles berg]

This is about as close as they get comparison wise.

Tough choice that im not going to make.

[johndeeregreen]

I can count on one hand how many twenty footers Duncan has taken in the playoffs.

[JtotheIzzo]

I can count on one hand how many twenty footers Duncan has taken in the playoffs.

wow, I didn't know you could count

[johndeeregreen]

Uhhh... all right?

Do you have a point?

Undoubtedly Duncan can shoot the midrange jumper, but shoots it extremely rarely. It's really not a big part of his game at all, and definitely not something that separates him in any way from Hakeem.

[JtotheIzzo]

Uhhh... all right?

Do you have a point?

Undoubtedly Duncan can shoot the midrange jumper, but shoots it extremely rarely. It's really not a big part of his game at all, and definitely not something that separates him in any way from Hakeem.

uh, I beg to differ, his eighteen footer from the wing is a staple of his (bank shot) and maybe he hasn't used it a lot this particualr playoff season (probably because the plan versus the Jazz and Suns was to jam it down their throats) but it is practically a trademark of his.

and back when he used to battle the Lakers he would kill Shaq from the top of the key, even hit that impossible jumper before Derek Fisher one upped him at the 0.4 second mark.

[Dynasty]

You guys are clearly not taking into account Hakeem Olajuwon's clutch factor v Tim Duncan's. How quickly some forget how Tim would and still does now at times clank those key free throws circa 2000-2004 versus LA Lakers although they won it all in 2003. Hakeem would Dream Shake Timmy while Timmy would Funda"mentally" do Olajuwon.

[poeticism707]

Give poeticism credit for laying down the stats. Yes, stats don't tell the story, but it's funny how people use that argument when they argue for "their" player. Also give him credit for actually summing up an argument rather than," Hakeem is better, take my word for it," argument. Tell you the truth I've been around for both their careers and I'd take Duncan for a smidgen myself.
You can't use the competition arugument. Although yes, Dream had Ewing Shaq,and Admiral, but let's not take away from as prime Webber, prime Sheed, prime Nowitzki, they both had Shaq, but Laker Shaq was far better and on a more dominant Laker team than early Orlando. Also please don't take away level of competition in both eras. Yeah, Hakeem's era had the legendary status, the same status that blinds our judgment when it comes to comparing. we always seem to rate the legends miles ahead of todays competition. It's not that far off.
Accolades do tell part of the story. It show your ability to lead a team and create you own legendary status. Statistics aslo show your performance against elite competition. So taking into account of the accolades, Duncan has been doing what he's doing longer and with more consistancy. With those accolades piled up, and no doubt in my mind he will ad to his acheivments for at least 4 or five more years. His body is a warrior, barely ever gets injured, does his thing, even though he's less physically gift compared to Hakeem in the athleticism and speed department.
Supporting cast. Hakeem had the better teams. Yeah, you can say, Ducan had Admiral, but at the same points of their career (supporting cast) hakeem also had a hungry Barkley, and Pip, and a Drexler. Even with their combonation of what seemed the best compliment of legends, Hakeem didn't lead the team to glory. It's arguable Duncan may have, but he has lead a weaker team against what seemed to be an invincable Lakers team.
So you can see any argument can be debunked whether it be accolades, competition, or supporting cast. It's how you put your personal spin on it. You can't just come in and say ," hakeem is way better, I've seen them play." Where the evidence and the back-up statement? My dad saw Dr.J in his prime and many older people, who are die hard fans, are convinced that Julius Erving was a way better individual player than Jordan. So, we can't debunk that argument because we judge players from the past on stories or reputation, and in to most the degree, accolades.
So who would I take? Duncan. He's just the more consistant player, and has been doing it a top level longer. I like dependability. It's a good foundation to lay your team upon. Keep in mind the fact that Duncan played all four years in college, shortening the time span in which he could have racked up more accolades early in his career. And he most certainly will achieve more.
With that all said, Go Cavs!

:applause:

[poeticism707]

Duncan is better than Hakeem

there I said it, feels good too...now let me explain why, because so often, us here at ISH love to big up thepast in our revisionist history.

-Sure Hakeem had a nice post up game, but guess what, so does Duncan, it may not be as pretty but it yields the same results.

-Both are great defenders, potentialy all NBA defense every season, so this area is a push.

-Both have rings, but TD has more, and at a time where his conference was the stronger conference.

-The difference in my opinion is Duncan's range out to twenty two feet. Hakeem never had the ability to kill a team from the wing or the top of the key with jumpers like TD can, this is the difference, everything else is close or a push.

Timmy is better

get over yourselves.
:applause:

[EricForman]

if you factor in defense there is no way you say Shaq surpassed Hakeem. Shaq was the most dominant offensive threat but defensively no way. Hakeem never had a Kobe or Wade either or a Magic or Jerry West. Clyde was past his prime.all time lists are based on opinions bro not science.


With all due respect... Shaq being above Hakeem on any all time greatest list is FACT. Like Jordan over Jerry West on that same list, or Magic above Barkley.

I'm not saying Shaq was a superior skilled player. But his dominance in his prime, plus all his rings and playoffs runs puts him above Hakeem, career wise. There is no disputing Shaq is above Hakeem on any all time greatest list.

[poeticism707]

With all due respect... Shaq being above Hakeem on any all time greatest list is FACT. Like Jordan over Jerry West on that same list, or Magic above Barkley.

I'm not saying Shaq was a superior skilled player. But his dominance in his prime, plus all his rings and playoffs runs puts him above Hakeem, career wise. There is no disputing Shaq is above Hakeem on any all time greatest list.

Agreed, no disputing at all; or that Tim Duncan has passed Shaq on the all-time list, but that is an argument for another thread.

[Loki]

:pimp:

:)

[poeticism707]

:pimp:

:)

:oldlol:

which leads to

:cheers:

[deion2123]

Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:

Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7

Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.

One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.

you cant really compare those numbers because Tim Duncan's numbers will go down with age..so Hakeem will have the better career numbers....those numbers are skewed because Hakeem played like 3 years too long so his numbers took a nose dive

[Jailblazers7]

It is a tough choice but i am going to go with Hakeem on this one. When comparing statlines you have to remember that Hakeem played 18 seasons and his last 5 or so years were when his athleticism and skills were waning which would bring his averages down. On defense i think Hakeem is a step above Duncan. For one if you look at the stats Hakeem averaged 3 blocks and almost 2 steals per game for his career which is amazing. Duncan might have the NBA-defensive teams edge but you have to remember that Hakeem played in an era with some great defensive centers. He played against Eaton, Ewing, Robinson, and Mutombo late in his career. Im not taking away from Duncan's accomplishments either but he plays the PF making him available for either F spot on the defensive teams while Hakeem had to battle all those great C for one spot. And yes Duncan has one more championship but Hakeem did when his two championship in the two years that Jordan was retired meaning other teams actually had a shot at the title. He also lost a title against one of those great 80's Celtics teams in his second year. When people use shooting range as an advantage for Duncan it doesnt hold much wieght becuase while yes he can hit a jumper out to about 20 feet but it is not something he uses frequently. If he used the 18-20 ft. jumper like KG does it would be a huge advantage but Duncan's main operating zone and where he is most effective is 10 ft. and in.

[SCY]

Tim Duncan could win the next 90 titles and still be worse thank Hakeem, he simply has less of an impact on the game. He's a worse scorer and defender. Accolades and titles he collects in a different era with a different coach and different teammates doesn't alter how good he is at basketball.

And let's please stop this talk about how Hakeem/Shaq only dominated for a few years. That's plain BS.

[rzp]

Tim Duncan could win the next 90 titles and still be worse thank Hakeem, he simply has less of an impact on the game. He's a worse scorer and defender. Accolades and titles he collects in a different era with a different coach and different teammates doesn't alter how good he is at basketball.

And let's please stop this talk about how Hakeem/Shaq only dominated for a few years. That's plain BS.

man u are probly arguin with 15 yrs old kids...or less...they dnt know nothing about Hakeem/Shaq dominance...its like a TD bandwagon of kids...dnt waste ur time

[allball]

With all due respect... Shaq being above Hakeem on any all time greatest list is FACT. Like Jordan over Jerry West on that same list, or Magic above Barkley.

I'm not saying Shaq was a superior skilled player. But his dominance in his prime, plus all his rings and playoffs runs puts him above Hakeem, career wise. There is no disputing Shaq is above Hakeem on any all time greatest list.

well lists are always subjective so...

[IBALL.]

You guys are clearly not taking into account Hakeem Olajuwon's clutch factor v Tim Duncan's. How quickly some forget how Tim would and still does now at times clank those key free throws circa 2000-2004 versus LA Lakers although they won it all in 2003. Hakeem would Dream Shake Timmy while Timmy would Funda"mentally" do Olajuwon.

Point taken and I think you mistakenly gave the upper hand to Tim Duncan in your end statement because that's who I would take in a heartbeat. Tim Duncan

[Wuxia]

Whoever thinks these 2 guys are not close is just plain retarded. The fact is Hakeem and Duncan are very similar statisticly and accomplishment wise. You can't go wrong with either, and they should be ranked anywhere from 8-12 of all time.

[D-Town-Raised]

Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:

Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7

Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.

One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.


Duncan has played 10 years. Lets takes Hakeem's stats for his first 11 years. (You could do the first 13 if you want to)

Hakeem 24 Points 12.4 Rebounds 3.6 Blocks 2.5 Assists 1.9 Steals
Duncan 21.8 Points 11.9 Rebounds 2.4 Blocks 3.2 Assists .8

Your right it is not even close by your own criteria.

You are accounting career stats when Hakeem played 17 years. He injured himself in 97-98, then came the strike season, then for three years he played 20 minutes a game as an old man ending with Toronto. This is the only reason their stats are close.

Hakeem dominates individual stats for the same career length so far and if Duncan playes seven more years Hakeems full career stats will dominate again.

There is absolutely nothing Duncan does better then Hakeem except low post passing.

Hakeem better man to man defender
Hakeem better low post moves.
Hakeem better scorer.
Hakeem better handles.
Hakeem better range on jumper.
Hakeem better free throw shooter.
Hakeem better off the ball blocker.

Duncan is no more of a Power Forward then Hakeem is a Power Forward.

Garnett and Duncan are both Power Forwards. Yet they were both on All NBA First Team in 2003-2004. If you choose only one then Duncan is out and on the second team. If Hakeem was allowed to be placed as a center or on either forward spots his first 13 years like they do with players now. (Amare, two Power Forwards at the Forward Position etc...) he would have had 10 or 11 All NBA first teams in his first 13 years.

Duncan 4 Finals 3 Wins Still Pending 4
Hakeem 3 Finals 2 Wins

Even with Jordan retired the road to Hakeems two championships where harder then any road Duncan has ever taken. The Nets in the finals.:oldlol: Strike season with Ewing hurt.:oldlol: The Cavaliers.:oldlol:

In 94-95 Hakeem beat the four teams with the best records in the NBA.

Prime Hakeem is vastly superior to Duncan.
Career Hakeem is a notch above Duncan.

Championships define individual careers by grabbing at least two and being able to carry your team to one practically by yourself. When you start stacking them up it becomes about era, team and who you play. For this reason. Bill Russell will never be better then Jordan and Duncan will never be better then Hakeem even if he wins 6 titles.

[skillswithaz]

Duncan has played 10 years. Lets takes Hakeem's stats for his first 11 years. (You could do the first 13 if you want to)

Hakeem 24 Points 12.4 Rebounds 3.6 Blocks 2.5 Assists 1.9 Steals
Duncan 21.8 Points 11.9 Rebounds 2.4 Blocks 3.2 Assists .8

Your right it is not even close by your own criteria.

You are accounting career stats when Hakeem played 17 years. He injured himself in 97-98, then came the strike season, then for three years he played 20 minutes a game as an old man ending with Toronto. This is the only reason their stats are close.

Hakeem dominates individual stats for the same career length so far and if Duncan playes seven more years Hakeems full career stats will dominate again.

There is absolutely nothing Duncan does better then Hakeem except low post passing.

Hakeem better man to man defender
Hakeem better low post moves.
Hakeem better scorer.
Hakeem better handles.
Hakeem better range on jumper.
Hakeem better free throw shooter.
Hakeem better off the ball blocker.

Duncan is no more of a Power Forward then Hakeem is a Power Forward.

Garnett and Duncan are both Power Forwards. Yet they were both on All NBA First Team in 2003-2004. If you choose only one then Duncan is out and on the second team. If Hakeem was allowed to be placed as a center or on either forward spots his first 13 years like they do with players now. (Amare, two Power Forwards at the Forward Position etc...) he would have had 10 or 11 All NBA first teams in his first 13 years.

Duncan 4 Finals 3 Wins Still Pending 4
Hakeem 3 Finals 2 Wins

Even with Jordan retired the road to Hakeems two championships where harder then any road Duncan has ever taken. The Nets in the finals.:oldlol: Strike season with Ewing hurt.:oldlol: The Cavaliers.:oldlol:

In 94-95 Hakeem beat the four teams with the best records in the NBA.

Prime Hakeem is vastly superior to Duncan.
Career Hakeem is a notch above Duncan.

Championships define individual careers by grabbing at least two and being able to carry your team to one practically by yourself. When you start stacking them up it becomes about era, team and who you play. For this reason. Bill Russell will never be better then Jordan and Duncan will never be better then Hakeem even if he wins 6 titles.

i absolutely agree. Duncan is a great player but he's not Shaq or Hakeem...

[Psileas]

Good post, D-Town. Despite Duncan having more championships, Hakeem's versatility was too much to ignore. It's been said that Duncan and Hakeem's defense was "a push". Not really. Hakeem's reflexes and speed gave him the ability to guard the paint as well as close to the perimeter. Duncan can't do this. Mutombo couldn't do this, Zo couldn't either. That's the main reason I consider Hakeem a better defender than them all. Just count the 100 steal/100 block seasons of Hakeem and compare it to the others'.
And when it comes to the playoffs, just see Olajuwon's numbers from 1986 to 1989 and from 1993 to 1997. Are they supposed to be inferior to Duncan's best ones (2001-03, 2006-07)?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html

The only area where I think Duncan is more effective than Hakeem, at least pre-championship Hakeem is the mentality. Olajuwon used to be pretty uncooperative at times, whined to the team for not getting help, even demaned that he be traded. Duncan hasn't faced as many difficulties with his teammates, but even if he had, I don't think he would become as explosive and frustrating to the rest of the team.

[rzp]

Duncan has played 10 years. Lets takes Hakeem's stats for his first 11 years. (You could do the first 13 if you want to)

Hakeem 24 Points 12.4 Rebounds 3.6 Blocks 2.5 Assists 1.9 Steals
Duncan 21.8 Points 11.9 Rebounds 2.4 Blocks 3.2 Assists .8

Your right it is not even close by your own criteria.

You are accounting career stats when Hakeem played 17 years. He injured himself in 97-98, then came the strike season, then for three years he played 20 minutes a game as an old man ending with Toronto. This is the only reason their stats are close.

Hakeem dominates individual stats for the same career length so far and if Duncan playes seven more years Hakeems full career stats will dominate
again.

There is absolutely nothing Duncan does better then Hakeem except low post passing.

Hakeem better man to man defender
Hakeem better low post moves.
Hakeem better scorer.
Hakeem better handles.
Hakeem better range on jumper.
Hakeem better free throw shooter.
Hakeem better off the ball blocker.

Duncan is no more of a Power Forward then Hakeem is a Power Forward.

Garnett and Duncan are both Power Forwards. Yet they were both on All NBA First Team in 2003-2004. If you choose only one then Duncan is out and on the second team. If Hakeem was allowed to be placed as a center or on either forward spots his first 13 years like they do with players now. (Amare, two Power Forwards at the Forward Position etc...) he would have had 10 or 11 All NBA first teams in his first 13 years.

Duncan 4 Finals 3 Wins Still Pending 4
Hakeem 3 Finals 2 Wins

Even with Jordan retired the road to Hakeems two championships where harder then any road Duncan has ever taken. The Nets in the finals.:oldlol: Strike season with Ewing hurt.:oldlol: The Cavaliers.:oldlol:

In 94-95 Hakeem beat the four teams with the best records in the NBA.

Prime Hakeem is vastly superior to Duncan.
Career Hakeem is a notch above Duncan.

Championships define individual careers by grabbing at least two and being able to carry your team to one practically by yourself. When you start stacking them up it becomes about era, team and who you play. For this reason. Bill Russell will never be better then Jordan and Duncan will never be better then Hakeem even if he wins 6 titles.

PWNED :applause:
/THREAD

[D-Town-Raised]

I agree with that. Hakeem was a live wire early. Ducna is better at passing out of a conventional post play and keeping his cool other then that Hakeem was superior at everything else.

I consider Hakeem the best defensive player ever. He could guard Shaq all game and he could cover point guards on the pick and roll for a good portion of the game as well. Hakeem is a bigger, stronger and more athletic Kevin Garnett. Hakeem had the body size to bang, the ups to block off the ball, the lateral quickness to guard on the perimeter and the hand quickness to strip small forwards.

I don't have Duncan as the greatest Power Forward ever because if Duncan is a Power Forward then I consider Moses Malone and Bill Russell to be Power Forwards as well. I consider Moses Malone the most underrated ever and I would take him over Duncan.

[beau_boy04]

awards and recognizations aside - Hakeem was a better player than Duncan.

And there's no doubts in my mind about it.

:cheers:

[JtotheIzzo]

Duncan has played 10 years. Lets takes Hakeem's stats for his first 11 years. (You could do the first 13 if you want to)

Hakeem 24 Points 12.4 Rebounds 3.6 Blocks 2.5 Assists 1.9 Steals
Duncan 21.8 Points 11.9 Rebounds 2.4 Blocks 3.2 Assists .8

Your right it is not even close by your own criteria.

You are accounting career stats when Hakeem played 17 years. He injured himself in 97-98, then came the strike season, then for three years he played 20 minutes a game as an old man ending with Toronto. This is the only reason their stats are close.

Hakeem dominates individual stats for the same career length so far and if Duncan playes seven more years Hakeems full career stats will dominate again.

There is absolutely nothing Duncan does better then Hakeem except low post passing.

Hakeem better man to man defender
Hakeem better low post moves.
Hakeem better scorer.
Hakeem better handles.
Hakeem better range on jumper.
Hakeem better free throw shooter.
Hakeem better off the ball blocker.

Duncan is no more of a Power Forward then Hakeem is a Power Forward.

Garnett and Duncan are both Power Forwards. Yet they were both on All NBA First Team in 2003-2004. If you choose only one then Duncan is out and on the second team. If Hakeem was allowed to be placed as a center or on either forward spots his first 13 years like they do with players now. (Amare, two Power Forwards at the Forward Position etc...) he would have had 10 or 11 All NBA first teams in his first 13 years.

Duncan 4 Finals 3 Wins Still Pending 4
Hakeem 3 Finals 2 Wins

Even with Jordan retired the road to Hakeems two championships where harder then any road Duncan has ever taken. The Nets in the finals.:oldlol: Strike season with Ewing hurt.:oldlol: The Cavaliers.:oldlol:

In 94-95 Hakeem beat the four teams with the best records in the NBA.

Prime Hakeem is vastly superior to Duncan.
Career Hakeem is a notch above Duncan.

Championships define individual careers by grabbing at least two and being able to carry your team to one practically by yourself. When you start stacking them up it becomes about era, team and who you play. For this reason. Bill Russell will never be better then Jordan and Duncan will never be better then Hakeem even if he wins 6 titles.

reading this makes me want to take a dump

[DieHardBullsFan]

awards and recognizations aside - Hakeem was a better player than Duncan.

And there's no doubts in my mind about it.

:cheers:

True I agree...this was a no brainer:rockon:

[poeticism707]

Could these responses be more subjective? Are we talking about which is the greatest player, or who your favorite pop artist is? Based on adjectives like "Hakeem is faster" (have you timed them in the 40 yard dash
?) and "Hakeem would OWN Duncan" and other such nonsense. The reality is Tim Duncan has rose to be the cream of the crop within his own generation, against the likes of Shaq's Lakers, The Detroit Pistons, (talk about physical), etc., and he has done it more than Hakeem. Titles are objective; accomplishsments are objective; most posters on this thread are not.

[JtotheIzzo]

Could these responses be more subjective? Are we talking about which is the greatest player, or who your favorite pop artist is? Based on adjectives like "Hakeem is faster" (have you timed them in the 40 yard dash
?) and "Hakeem would OWN Duncan" and other such nonsense. The reality is Tim Duncan has rose to be the cream of the crop within his own generation, against the likes of Shaq's Lakers, The Detroit Pistons, (talk about physical), etc., and he has done it more than Hakeem. Titles are objective; accomplishsments are objective; most posters on this thread are not.

here here:applause:

there is one fool up there saying Hakeem had better range too:hammerhead:

this discussion has fallen to the bottom of the toilet bowl.

[DieHardBullsFan]

Could these responses be more subjective? Are we talking about which is the greatest player, or who your favorite pop artist is? Based on adjectives like "Hakeem is faster" (have you timed them in the 40 yard dash
?) and "Hakeem would OWN Duncan" and other such nonsense. The reality is Tim Duncan has rose to be the cream of the crop within his own generation, against the likes of Shaq's Lakers, The Detroit Pistons, (talk about physical), etc., and he has done it more than Hakeem. Titles are objective; accomplishsments are objective; most posters on this thread are not.

The Dream was quicker and a better defender....hes in the top 5 all time in steals and thats wierd for a big man to be in that category...I like Tim Duncan and I think hes one of the best PF's of all-time but your comparing him to the "Dream" and he was better.

[D-Town-Raised]

Could these responses be more subjective? Are we talking about which is the greatest player, or who your favorite pop artist is? Based on adjectives like "Hakeem is faster" (have you timed them in the 40 yard dash
?) and "Hakeem would OWN Duncan" and other such nonsense. The reality is Tim Duncan has rose to be the cream of the crop within his own generation, against the likes of Shaq's Lakers, The Detroit Pistons, (talk about physical), etc., and he has done it more than Hakeem. Titles are objective; accomplishsments are objective; most posters on this thread are not.

The same Hakeem who beat the 85-86 L.A. Lakers 4 games to 1. Those same Lakers who would beat any team Duncan ever played on in 5 games? Then met the 85-86 Celtics a top ten team all time and played a close 6 game series.

The same Hakeem who has better stats for his first 13 years compared to Duncans first 10 in every category except assists?

The same Hakeem who beat the best three centers in the game to win his titles.

The same Hakeem who won back to back something Duncan hasn't done.

The same Hakeem who beat the 4 best Teams in the NBA record wise while outplaying Robinson and Shaq.

The same Duncan who was swept by the Lakers as the number 1 seed? And Blown out by 30 points two games in a row?

The same Duncan who was beaten 4-1 by the Lakers when he was the MVP?

The same Duncan who if he wouldn't have been injured and had Robinson by his side would have had Shaq put up 37 and 15 on both of them in 99-00?

The same Duncan who lost again in 2003-2004.

The same Duncan who benfited from a strike plagued season? Then met the Ewingless Knicks in the Finals?

The same Duncan who played an unworthy Mavs team in the conference finals with Dirk missing most of the series then met the Nets in the Finals?

The physical Pistons who where 5 times less physical then the 93-94 Knicks with Oakley, Mason and Hand Check Harper?

The Same Duncan who met the Jazz because of an upset?

[Da KO King]

Duncan has played 10 years. Lets takes Hakeem's stats for his first 11 years. (You could do the first 13 if you want to)

Hakeem 24 Points 12.4 Rebounds 3.6 Blocks 2.5 Assists 1.9 Steals
Duncan 21.8 Points 11.9 Rebounds 2.4 Blocks 3.2 Assists .8

Your right it is not even close by your own criteria....
You know your post is dead on the money when those that disagree with it completely ignore it. :roll:

:cheers:

[beau_boy04]

After scanning thru this thread I realized something,

Spurs fans and 1-2% non Spurs fan think Duncan is > than Hakeem

while the rest of the population believe

Hakeem > Duncan

:cheers:

[beau_boy04]

http://www.nbcsports.com/nba/424876/detail.html

Another reason why Hak was a superior defender:

Hakeem Olajuwon:
12 seasons with at least 100 steals and 100 blocks
11 seasons with at least 100 steals and 200 blocks
4 seasons finishing top ten in both categories (steals and blocks)
1 season with at least 200 steals 100 blocks

Tim Duncan is nowhere to be found in those in the website listed above. Now we should all know by know the defensive monster Hak was and we all know he was far a superior scorer as well.

:cheers:

[Rameek]

I would take Akeem all day! He was a phenom! Unlike any other big man. Is it safe to assume Duncan is succeeding with less than stellar comp? :confusedshrug:

[snipes12]

hakeem was entertaining to watch
while TD is fundamentally boring to watch.....

[Heelcrazy2]

hakeem was entertaining to watch
while TD is fundamentally boring to watch.....

I would not say TD is boring, but I agree that most non NBA fans would say that.


My opinion:
Dream better in his prime, but TD already has had a better career.

[Brunch@Five]

It's already been said, but Hakeem is a better scorer and defender. Tim Duncan has passing on him and maybe game management.
Tim Duncan is solid at everything, great at nothing (compared all-time)
Hakeem is maybe the best defender at C ever, and a better scorer than all but 3 other C's (Shaq, Wilt, Kareem).
Apart from accolades, Tim Duncan does not compare to the all-time greats.

[ginobli2311]

It's already been said, but Hakeem is a better scorer and defender. Tim Duncan has passing on him and maybe game management.
Tim Duncan is solid at everything, great at nothing (compared all-time)
Hakeem is maybe the best defender at C ever, and a better scorer than all but 3 other C's (Shaq, Wilt, Kareem).
Apart from accolades, Tim Duncan does not compare to the all-time greats.

completely false. you are confusing his "boring" play with not being great in your terms. hardly the case. tim duncan is actually a much superior defender than hakeem was.....and that is saying something because hakeem was great. hakeem got a lot of his defensive stats because he gambled a lot and went for huge blocks and highlight plays. duncan is the epitome of a professional ballplayer. he put team and winning first and did everything he could to make that happen.

i have duncan ahead of hakeem.....and it has nothing to do with accolades. duncan was simply a slightly better basketball player. he was a better overall defender....what Duncan does for the spurs defense is really unmatched since bill russell. evidenced by duncan's 2nd best defensive rating of all time. Duncan has a better PER. Was a slightly better rebounder. Passed the ball better....and was flat out a better leader on and off the floor.

hakeem was more flashy....but don't confuse flashier with better. once you start to factor in titles and accolades and advanced stats and mvp awards shares....it becomes even more obvious that duncan was the better player.

[Yung D-Will]

It's already been said, but Hakeem is a better scorer and defender. Tim Duncan has passing on him and maybe game management.
Tim Duncan is solid at everything, great at nothing (compared all-time)
Hakeem is maybe the best defender at C ever, and a better scorer than all but 3 other C's (Shaq, Wilt, Kareem).
Apart from accolades, Tim Duncan does not compare to the all-time greats.


:oldlol:

Shame on you ginobilli bumping 3 year old threads lol

Sry had to do it lolz was bored

[ginobli2311]

:oldlol:

Shame on you ginobilli bumping 3 year old threads lol

Sry had to do it lolz was bored

i didn't realize it was old.....someone bumped it before me....wasn't it you?

[Yung D-Will]

Busted :lol

[AirJordan23]

completely false. you are confusing his "boring" play with not being great in your terms. hardly the case. tim duncan is actually a much superior defender than hakeem was.....and that is saying something because hakeem was great. hakeem got a lot of his defensive stats because he gambled a lot and went for huge blocks and highlight plays. duncan is the epitome of a professional ballplayer. he put team and winning first and did everything he could to make that happen.

:oldlol: @ much superior defender. If you think Duncan was a much superior defender than Hakeem, I don't know what to say. Duncan was less of a gambler, didn't go for fakes and held ground well. He wasn't a better interior defender than Hakeem. Individual defensive rating is useless. Shows that guys like Anderson Varejao (flopper) is a great defender. Was ahead of Duncan in 2009. 2009 Big Z who was a horrific post defender was a top 10 defender in the league. Individual defensive rating is boosted by the type of players you have around you and the scheme you're in. Duncan's defensive rating is helped by the fact that he had Bruce Bowen who was a terrific perimeter defender, Popovich who has a great defensive scheme, DRob in his earlier days who could focus more on defense since Duncan took pressure off of him and great defensive role players in general. You bring up highlight plays, sure, Dream gambled a bit. But, you can't question his overall defense. 2x DPOY. Had several gamewinning defensive plays. And had high IQ. Series-saving block on Starks in game 6 of the '94 finals. Shut down Ewing. Ewing shot 36% from the field cause Dream pushed him away from the basket. And you know what he did to DRob (league MVP), held him to 44% shooting. The Rockets defense started and ended with Hakeem. His willingness and communication on that end was terrific. I don't need stats to believe Dream was a better defender and player than Hakeem. But, if you wanna go there. How about the '05 WCF where Amare literally did whatever he wanted to Duncan. 37 a game. Though, they lost which had something to do with JJ being injured for the first 3 games. How about Duncan not being able to hide himself against the Suns this year? Got lit up by Frye from deep, Hill took him off the dribble and Amare blew by him. Hakeem's perimeter defense was considerably better than Duncan's. I've seen guard some guards on switches and not allow penetration and recover in time to contest their shot. Duncan can't do that to save his life. His defense has been overrated ever since 2006. Ask Robert Horry. The guy whose played with Dream, Duncan and Shaq. And he'll tell you that Dream was better than both of them.




i have duncan ahead of hakeem.....and it has nothing to do with accolades. duncan was simply a slightly better basketball player. he was a better overall defender....what Duncan does for the spurs defense is really unmatched since bill russell. evidenced by duncan's 2nd best defensive rating of all time. Duncan has a better PER. Was a slightly better rebounder. Passed the ball better....and was flat out a better leader on and off the floor.
PER? The same stat that tells me Dirk is better than Garnett, DRob is better than the likes of KAJ, Duncan, Dream etc, Ginobili is better than Drexler, '08 version of Ginobili is better than MVP Bryant? I could go on and on......

'93-96 Hakeem was better than peak Duncan. Really, there is not a single thing that Duncan does better than Olajuwon other than passing off the dribble and finding the open man from the post.. Duncan's decision making is also better considering he makes very few mistakes and knows what to do at the right time. Also, Duncan has never won against a team like the Suns (94-95) or the Jazz (94-95) with the exception of the 2003 Lakers. And the '03 Lakers were not as good as they were in the 3 peat due to various reasons such as fatigue, chemistry issues, lack of depth etc. Granted, Duncan's cast wasn't great in 2003. Olajuwon was also better on offense. His vast array of low post moves were highly effective in getting you in foul trouble or juking you out of your shoes. Howoever, most of his points came from textbook plays like jumphooks and 15 foot Js. Rebounding is about even. Also, Olajuwon being a lot more athletic helps him recover a lot faster on the defensive end while Duncan rarely committs mistakes so Duncan has a edge in decision making or fundamentals.

And really if you're gonna bring up Duncan's 2003 run. I can tell you it doesn't compare to Hakeem's '94 run or '95 run. Duncan's team was about as good as Hakeem's yet his competition was much worse. '03 Suns led by a rookie Amare and Marbury. Note that Duncan choked at the FT line (twice) which led to a Marbury gamewinner. '03 Lakers weren't the same team that won the 3peat like I said before. '03 Mavs which were a horrific defensive team due to personnel and coaching. And Dirk went down in game 3. And the '03 Nets which are possibly the worst team to make the finals. Hakeem's dominance is really on another level.


hakeem was more flashy....but don't confuse flashier with better. once you start to factor in titles and accolades and advanced stats and mvp awards shares....it becomes even more obvious that duncan was the better player.
No, Hakeem was just flashier and better. Whatever you wanna call it. Titles are only cause of Duncan's teams and circumstances. Several people have put a asterik on the Spurs' 99 and 07 rings. '99 was the lockout that severly affected the older teams (Utah, Pacers etc) since the schedule was so tight. East was weak as hell. Lakers were not a great team due to terrible defense, coaching and lack of chemistry. The Knicks had a magical run but they weren't close to a great team. No Ewing either. '07, you had the suspensions which ruined the series. After that it was a cakewalk. Duncan's rings are not more impressive than Hakeem's under context. Accolades have a lot to do with competition which I'm not even gonna get into.

Also, the first time I've seen someone bring up an MVP award share.

[Yung D-Will]

Did you really just mention this years playoffs with a Duncan who's like 6 years part his prime:lol

If the 2003 spurs had faced this suns teams it'd be an easy sweep . Prime Duncan defensively was a beast.

[Yung D-Will]

I just found that funny but I won't interrupt on your argument lol

[AirJordan23]

Did you really just mention this years playoffs with a Duncan who's like 6 years part his prime:lol

Uhh, Duncan is 33 RIGHT NOW. He isn't in his prime but it's not like he's totally done. For all the credit he gets for his longevity and "fundamentally sound play" which is hilarious btw, why shouldn't I bring up his poor peformance... Just for the record, Hakeem at 33 was putting up 27/11/4/3 and was considered the best player in the league by several people (not that I agreed with it). And this was with MJ back.


If the 2003 spurs had faced this suns teams it'd be an easy sweep . Prime Duncan defensively was a beast.
I couldn't give a less of a f*ck if the '03 Spurs would sweep the Suns or not. I'm talkin from an individual scale, not a team scale.

[SCdac]

Tim Duncan is not 33...

granted he was for most of the season, but still.

[Yung D-Will]

What does that have to do with being past your prime? That saids nothing about longevity.

Hakeem's prime 1993-1995 7 years after his prime he was putting up 12/7/1
Duncan's Prime 2001-2003 7 years after his prime he was putting up 18/10/3(This season)

I don't get what you're trying to do? Are you punishing Duncan for not having as late a prime as Hakeem? Hakeem had a prime later in his career so of course he's gonna be putting up better numbers at age 33. But how does that translate to longevity?

[Yung D-Will]

That's like saying Nash has better longevity then every point guard because he has a later prime and is productive at an older age.

[Harison]

Duncan has played 10 years. Lets takes Hakeem's stats for his first 11 years. (You could do the first 13 if you want to)

Hakeem 24 Points 12.4 Rebounds 3.6 Blocks 2.5 Assists 1.9 Steals
Duncan 21.8 Points 11.9 Rebounds 2.4 Blocks 3.2 Assists .8

Your right it is not even close by your own criteria.

You are accounting career stats when Hakeem played 17 years. He injured himself in 97-98, then came the strike season, then for three years he played 20 minutes a game as an old man ending with Toronto. This is the only reason their stats are close.

Hakeem dominates individual stats for the same career length so far and if Duncan playes seven more years Hakeems full career stats will dominate again.

There is absolutely nothing Duncan does better then Hakeem except low post passing.

Hakeem better man to man defender
Hakeem better low post moves.
Hakeem better scorer.
Hakeem better handles.
Hakeem better range on jumper.
Hakeem better free throw shooter.
Hakeem better off the ball blocker.

Duncan is no more of a Power Forward then Hakeem is a Power Forward.

Garnett and Duncan are both Power Forwards. Yet they were both on All NBA First Team in 2003-2004. If you choose only one then Duncan is out and on the second team. If Hakeem was allowed to be placed as a center or on either forward spots his first 13 years like they do with players now. (Amare, two Power Forwards at the Forward Position etc...) he would have had 10 or 11 All NBA first teams in his first 13 years.

Duncan 4 Finals 3 Wins Still Pending 4
Hakeem 3 Finals 2 Wins

Even with Jordan retired the road to Hakeems two championships where harder then any road Duncan has ever taken. The Nets in the finals.:oldlol: Strike season with Ewing hurt.:oldlol: The Cavaliers.:oldlol:

In 94-95 Hakeem beat the four teams with the best records in the NBA.

Prime Hakeem is vastly superior to Duncan.
Career Hakeem is a notch above Duncan.

Championships define individual careers by grabbing at least two and being able to carry your team to one practically by yourself. When you start stacking them up it becomes about era, team and who you play. For this reason. Bill Russell will never be better then Jordan and Duncan will never be better then Hakeem even if he wins 6 titles.
Good post. Talent wise Duncan isnt on Hakeems level, although no question they are both All-time great players. Dream in his prime was better in every area except passing, so how come this is even comparison? The only thing which brings them closer are team-based accolades.

[Yung D-Will]

Good post. Talent wise Duncan isnt on Hakeems level, although no question they are both All-time great players. Dream in his prime was better in every area except passing, so how come this is even comparison? The only thing which brings them closer are team-based accolades.

Because.

On the court skill wise they were never that far apart. Hakeem may be better in most aspects but he was never "that much better" That it's enough to set them apart. So it usually comes down to Hakeem being slightly better in nearly every aspect on the court against Duncan being the greater winner and having better longevity.

And yes rings do have alot to do with ranking players .

[Big#50]

Duncan is and should only be compared to Jabbar and Shaq. Duncan did everything Hakeem did and won twice as many titles. Hakeem is ****ing overrated. One highlight clip made this guy very overrated. Hakeeem got stats when stats were ****ing easy to get. Fast pace means easy blocks, more rebounds, more points. Duncan played in a way slower pace and got similar stats.
Passing-Duncan
One on One D-Duncan
Shotblocker-Hakeem
Scorer-Hakeem
Better team defender- Duncan
Rebounder-Duncan
Free throws-Hakeem
Shooter-equal
Leader and IQ-Duncan
Sure hakeem had a better scoring average and rebounding numbers but in a way faster pace. Not to mention centers were allow to hack like hell goaltend and live in the key made it easire to get blocks.
Had Duncan played against the easy competition Hakeem played against he would have sick ****ing numbers. For every Robinson and Ewing there was 15 luc longleys. Duncan played in a perimeter player friendly era and still dominated on D. Duncan and Hakeem are very similar but Duncan was the better player. 4 rings in the Shaq and Kobe era is more impressive than 2 rings in a Ewing/Robinson/Malone era.
People calling Hakeem fast as a gaurd and the greatest defender ever need to die.

[Younggrease]

Duncan is and should only be compared to Jabbar and Shaq. Duncan did everything Hakeem did and won twice as many titles. Hakeem is ****ing overrated. One highlight clip made this guy very overrated. Hakeeem got stats when stats were ****ing easy to get. Fast pace means easy blocks, more rebounds, more points. Duncan played in a way slower pace and got similar stats.
Passing-Duncan
One on One D-Duncan
Shotblocker-Hakeem
Scorer-Hakeem
Better team defender- Duncan
Rebounder-Duncan
Free throws-Hakeem
Shooter-equal
Leader and IQ-Duncan
Sure hakeem had a better scoring average and rebounding numbers but in a way faster pace. Not to mention centers were allow to hack like hell goaltend and live in the key made it easire to get blocks.
Had Duncan played against the easy competition Hakeem played against he would have sick ****ing numbers. For every Robinson and Ewing there was 15 luc longleys. Duncan played in a perimeter player friendly era and still dominated on D. Duncan and Hakeem are very similar but Duncan was the better player. 4 rings in the Shaq and Kobe era is more impressive than 2 rings in a Ewing/Robinson/Malone era.
People calling Hakeem fast as a gaurd and the greatest defender ever need to die.
:roll: :roll:

[Harison]

Because.

On the court skill wise they were never that far apart. Hakeem may be better in most aspects but he was never "that much better" That it's enough to set them apart. So it usually comes down to Hakeem being slightly better in nearly every aspect on the court against Duncan being the greater winner and having better longevity.

And yes rings do have alot to do with ranking players .
As I've watched them and not just checked stats, Dream was visibly better overall player. One could very well make a case of Robinson and Duncan being on the same level (accolades aside), and Hakeem schooled DRob. The main difference between TD and DRob were Playoffs, Duncan played better and Rob worse, but Hakeem so much so improved in the post-season, that its a no contest again:

The peak Duncan playoff run at 25 was 27.6/14.4/5.0 at TS 55%, that's a bit better than 25.5/12.7/3.7 at TS 57%.

Hakeem peaked at 37.5/16.8/1.8 at TS 64%, compare that to 22.8/12.1/2.1 at TS 55% in the regular season, its ridiculous how much Dream kicked to the higher gear in the post-season. Or at the age of 32 Dream went 33.0/10.3/4.5

Duncan greater winner? He has more rings, but it doesnt mean that much if we forget the context - Duncan had a better team and competition in most years was weaker than teams Dream faced. How many rings would TD have even with his better team against Jordan, Showtime Lakers, Bird's Celtics, Isiah's Bad Boys? Probably none.

Its true Hakeem would probably have one ring less if Jordan wouldnt have retired, but Dream's championship run was one of the greatest individual run in the post-season, ever, upseting much better teams in the process, he probably is the second player in NBA history almost single-handedly winning the rings, Duncan/Shaq/Kobe and other superstars havent managed that, hell even Jordan couldnt (in big part because of much more fierce competition in his days). So no, Duncan isnt a greater winner, just was in better position team and era wise.

[Big#50]

As I've watched them and not just checked stats, Dream was visibly better overall player. One could very well make a case of Robinson and Duncan being on the same level (accolades aside), and Hakeem schooled DRob. The main difference between TD and DRob were Playoffs, Duncan played better and Rob worse, but Hakeem so much so improved in the post-season, that its a no contest again:

The peak Duncan playoff run at 25 was 27.6/14.4/5.0 at TS 55%, that's a bit better than 25.5/12.7/3.7 at TS 57%.

Hakeem peaked at 37.5/16.8/1.8 at TS 64%, compare that to 22.8/12.1/2.1 at TS 55% in the regular season, its ridiculous how much Dream kicked to the higher gear in the post-season. Or at the age of 32 Dream went 33.0/10.3/4.5

Duncan greater winner? He has more rings, but it doesnt mean that much if we forget the context - Duncan had a better team and competition in most years was weaker than teams Dream faced. How many rings would TD have even with his better team against Jordan, Showtime Lakers, Bird's Celtics, Isiah's Bad Boys? Probably none.

Its true Hakeem would probably have one ring less if Jordan wouldnt have retired, but Dream's championship run was one of the greatest individual run in the post-season, ever, upseting much better teams in the process, he probably is the second player in NBA history almost single-handedly winning the rings, Duncan/Shaq/Kobe and other superstars havent managed that, hell even Jordan couldnt (in big part because of much more fierce competition in his days). So no, Duncan isnt a greater winner, just was in better position team and era wise.
Duncan had to beat Shaq/Kobe. Watch Duncan in 03. This era is greater than your beloved 80's and 90's era. When did Hakeem win a ring by himself. I hope you don't mean 94.

[Yung D-Will]

As I've watched them and not just checked stats, Dream was visibly better overall player. One could very well make a case of Robinson and Duncan being on the same level (accolades aside), and Hakeem schooled DRob. The main difference between TD and DRob were Playoffs, Duncan played better and Rob worse, but Hakeem so much so improved in the post-season, that its a no contest again:

The peak Duncan playoff run at 25 was 27.6/14.4/5.0 at TS 55%, that's a bit better than 25.5/12.7/3.7 at TS 57%.

Hakeem peaked at 37.5/16.8/1.8 at TS 64%, compare that to 22.8/12.1/2.1 at TS 55% in the regular season, its ridiculous how much Dream kicked to the higher gear in the post-season. Or at the age of 32 Dream went 33.0/10.3/4.5

Duncan greater winner? He has more rings, but it doesnt mean that much if we forget the context - Duncan had a better team and competition in most years was weaker than teams Dream faced. How many rings would TD have even with his better team against Jordan, Showtime Lakers, Bird's Celtics, Isiah's Bad Boys? Probably none.

Its true Hakeem would probably have one ring less if Jordan wouldnt have retired, but Dream's championship run was one of the greatest individual run in the post-season, ever, upseting much better teams in the process, he probably is the second player in NBA history almost single-handedly winning the rings, Duncan/Shaq/Kobe and other superstars havent managed that, hell even Jordan couldnt (in big part because of much more fierce competition in his days). So no, Duncan isnt a greater winner, just was in better position team and era wise.

So basically your main point is to speculate what would happened if Duncan played in the 90's how the hell are we supposed to know that? For all I know Duncan could have been the anti Jordan. I can't rank a player based on what they could have won in a different era. I rank them on what they did in whatever era they played. Should I say Russel's not a greater winner then Hakeem cause he didn't play in the Jordan era ?

That's plain retarded. I'm not saying Duncan is better then Hakeem but to deny he's a greater winner then Hakeem just based on the era he played is retarded.

So by that logic any player who didn't play against Jordan isn't a greater winner then Hakeem?

Come on now Duncan's team never missed the playoffs since he came into the Nba and never had less then a 50 win season. That is the model of winning

[Yung D-Will]

And what's your point about Hakeem's championship run?

Duncan also put up one of the greatest championship runs of all time in 2003 when he carried the rebuilding spurs.


40/15/7 Vs The Mavs
34/24/6/6 Vs The Mavs
37/16/4 Vs The Lakers
36/9/5 Vs The Lakers
28/8/7 Vs The Lakers
27/14/5 Vs The Lakers
32/20/6/7 Vs The Nets

Triple Double 15/20 rebounds/10 assists Vs The Suns

Near Quarduable double Finals clinching game 21/20/10/8

Broke the record for most block in a playoff series and tied most blocks in an Nba game.


Vs. Suns:
18.7 ppg, 16 rpg, 5.2 ast, 3.5 blks

vs. Lakers:
28 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 4.8 ast, 1.3 blks

vs. Mavs:
28 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 5.8 ast, 3 blks

vs. Nets:
24.2ppg, 17 rpg, 5.3 ast, 5.3 blks

[Yung D-Will]

1993-1994 Houston Rockets(58-24):

Pg: Kenny Smith/Sam Cassell/Scott Brooks
Sg: Vernon Maxwell/Mario Elie/Larry Robinson
Sf: Robert Horry/Chris Jent/Matt Bullard
Pf: Otis Thorpe/Carl Herrera/Earn Crueton
C: Hakeem Olajuwon/Richard Petruska/Eric Riley


2002-2003 San Antonio Spurs(60-22):

Pg: Tony Parker/Steve Kerr/Speedy Claxton
Sg: Stephen Jackson/Manu Ginobili
Sf: Bruce Bowen/Steve Smith/Danny Ferry
Pf: Tim Duncan/Malik Rose
C: David Robinson/Kevin Willis/Mengke Bateer


Neither team had a legit second option

[Jacks3]

I'll take Duncan. Similar peak/prime,more accolades/accomplishments, and greater longevity.

[Big#50]

Good post. Talent wise Duncan isnt on Hakeems level, although no question they are both All-time great players. Dream in his prime was better in every area except passing, so how come this is even comparison? The only thing which brings them closer are team-based accolades.
Duncan was better at more things. Hakeem had better footwork and speed. Nothing else. Duncan won't ever get the respect he deserves. Watch some prime Duncan. Duncan was ten times better at getting to the rim. Was a better defender. Duncan never went for fakes Pops slow ass grind it out style of play.Duncan in the 80's and 90's under a coach like John Lucas would have had 30/16/4. No doubt about it.

[Sarcastic]

These 2 are very close. All around interior defense I would give it to Timmy. For pure blocking, I would give the edge to Hakeem. For low post scoring, I would go with Timmy. For all around scoring probably Hakeem.

This is pretty much a toss up.

Edit: After further contemplation, I think Tim Duncan is overall the better player. Olajuwon is pretty damn good too though.

[Harison]

So basically your main point is to speculate what would happened if Duncan played in the 90's how the hell are we supposed to know that? For all I know Duncan could have been the anti Jordan. I can't rank a player based on what they could have won in a different era. I rank them on what they did in whatever era they played. Should I say Russel's not a greater winner then Hakeem cause he didn't play in the Jordan era ?

That's plain retarded. I'm not saying Duncan is better then Hakeem but to deny he's a greater winner then Hakeem just based on the era he played is retarded.

So by that logic any player who didn't play against Jordan isn't a greater winner then Hakeem?

Come on now Duncan's team never missed the playoffs since he came into the Nba and never had less then a 50 win season. That is the model of winning
You missed the point entirely. The point is - Hakeem individually did better in the postseason than Duncan and did it against tougher competition. To point it out is a common sense, not retarded :rolleyes: On the other hand, to ignore the teammates and era when judging players accolades is not very wise. And why you single out Jordan? I was speaking about era, and if you think Duncan faced every year anyone remotely close to what elite teams faced it back then - its not very wise either.

Its funny how you cherry pick games to make case stronger for Duncan, when you know Hakeem did a better job in the Playoffs and have even more impressive game results. Plus considering this era is very weak frontcourt wise, Hakeem would have even better stats than he did in his days, but its not needed:

1) we already established Dream kicked to the higher gear in the Playoffs than Duncan.

2) we already established Hakeem was more overall skilled than TD as well.

[Yung D-Will]

You missed the point entirely. The point is - Hakeem individually did better in the postseason than Duncan and did it against tougher competition. To point it out is a common sense, not retarded :rolleyes: On the other hand, to ignore the teammates and era when judging players accolades is not very wise. And why you single out Jordan? I was speaking about era, and if you think Duncan faced every year anyone remotely close to what elite teams faced it back then - its not very wise either.

Its funny how you cherry pick games to make case stronger for Duncan, when you know Hakeem did a better job in the Playoffs and have even more impressive game results. Plus considering this era is very weak frontcourt wise, Hakeem would have even better stats than he did in his days, but its not needed:

1) we already established Dream kicked to the higher gear in the Playoffs than Duncan.

2) we already established Hakeem was more overall skilled than TD as well.

And we established

1)Duncan is a greater winner then Hakeem(4 vs 2)

2)Duncan has better longevity then Hakeem


You're trying to tell me that we're discrediting Duncan's championships just because he didn't play in the 90's
:lol

Players have already admitted that the defense is better now then it used to be

[QUOTE]Bird and Ainge: Defense is better NOW
Quote:
Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game

[Yung D-Will]

Players can't control what era they play in. Duncan dominated in the 00's we don't know what he could have done in the 90's. Hakeem dominated in the 90's so we don't know he could have done in the 00's.

Every era has been completely different from the previous era.So discrediting a players win for dominating in the era they were born into is flawed.

[DwightHowardMVP]

completely false. you are confusing his "boring" play with not being great in your terms. hardly the case. tim duncan is actually a much superior defender than hakeem was.....and that is saying something because hakeem was great. hakeem got a lot of his defensive stats because he gambled a lot and went for huge blocks and highlight plays. duncan is the epitome of a professional ballplayer. he put team and winning first and did everything he could to make that happen.

i have duncan ahead of hakeem.....and it has nothing to do with accolades. duncan was simply a slightly better basketball player. he was a better overall defender....what Duncan does for the spurs defense is really unmatched since bill russell. evidenced by duncan's 2nd best defensive rating of all time. Duncan has a better PER. Was a slightly better rebounder. Passed the ball better....and was flat out a better leader on and off the floor.

hakeem was more flashy....but don't confuse flashier with better. once you start to factor in titles and accolades and advanced stats and mvp awards shares....it becomes even more obvious that duncan was the better player.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


This has to be a canidate for worst attempt at trying to rewrite history.


Duncan wasnt half the defender Hakeem was

[Yung D-Will]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


This has to be a canidate for worst attempt at trying to rewrite history.


Duncan wasnt half the defender Hakeem was

Half is pushing it. Duncan was one of the best defenders of all time. And he was a better help defender

[DwightHowardMVP]

Players can't control what era they play in. Duncan dominated in the 00's we don't know what he could have done in the 90's. Hakeem dominated in the 90's so we don't know he could have done in the 00's.

Every era has been completely different from the previous era.So discrediting a players win for dominating in the era they were born into is flawed.
How is Duncan a better winner? Hakeem won 2 rings with a much inferior team and players

[Yung D-Will]

How is Duncan a better winner? Hakeem won 2 rings with a much inferior team and players

Um the 1993-1994 houston rockets were way inferior to the 2002-2003 spurs who were a rebuilding team with no legit second option? That's news to me

[Lebron23]

How is Duncan a better winner? Hakeem won 2 rings with a much inferior team and players


This

Mr. Williams also needs to look at the teams and players that Tim Duncan had beaten in the playoffs.

[Yung D-Will]

1993-1994 Houston Rockets(58-24):

Pg: Kenny Smith/Sam Cassell/Scott Brooks
Sg: Vernon Maxwell/Mario Elie/Larry Robinson
Sf: Robert Horry/Chris Jent/Matt Bullard
Pf: Otis Thorpe/Carl Herrera/Earn Crueton
C: Hakeem Olajuwon/Richard Petruska/Eric Riley


2002-2003 San Antonio Spurs(60-22):

Pg: Tony Parker/Steve Kerr/Speedy Claxton
Sg: Stephen Jackson/Manu Ginobili
Sf: Bruce Bowen/Steve Smith/Danny Ferry
Pf: Tim Duncan/Malik Rose
C: David Robinson/Kevin Willis/Mengke Bateer


Neither had a second option both were just surrounded by role players.

And yes a 38 year old robinson who could barley jump is considered a role player. It was the year of his retirement

[Yung D-Will]

So you don't become what of the greatest winners of all time by carrying a rebuilding team to a championship.

Having 4 championships

Never having less then a 50 win season.

And Never missing the playoffs


That's news to me.

[Yung D-Will]

But I guess that's what happens when you're born into a different era.


Lets get real guys. Obviously everyone here knows Duncan and Shaq are greater winners then Hakeem. That doesn't mean they're greater players.

[DwightHowardMVP]

1993-1994 Houston Rockets(58-24):

Pg: Kenny Smith/Sam Cassell/Scott Brooks
Sg: Vernon Maxwell/Mario Elie/Larry Robinson
Sf: Robert Horry/Chris Jent/Matt Bullard
Pf: Otis Thorpe/Carl Herrera/Earn Crueton
C: Hakeem Olajuwon/Richard Petruska/Eric Riley


2002-2003 San Antonio Spurs(60-22):

Pg: Tony Parker/Steve Kerr/Speedy Claxton
Sg: Stephen Jackson/Manu Ginobili
Sf: Bruce Bowen/Steve Smith/Danny Ferry
Pf: Tim Duncan/Malik Rose
C: David Robinson/Kevin Willis/Mengke Bateer


Neither had a second option both were just surrounded by role players.

And yes a 38 year old robinson who could barley jump is considered a role player. It was the year of his retirement


Robinson> Thorpe
Bowen> Horry
Parker> Smith
Jackson> Thorpe
Ginobili> Any rocket bench player


Carl Herrera Chris Jent are your back up 3 and 4? They even spelled Jent's name wrong on Nba live. Thats how garbage he was.

Spurs have a much much better team. Not really close

[Yung D-Will]

Robinson> Thorpe
Bowen> Horry
Parker> Smith
Jackson> Thorpe
Ginobili> Any rocket bench player


Carl Herrera Chris Jent are your back up 3 and 4? They even spelled Jent's name wrong on Nba live. Thats how garbage he was.

Spurs have a much much better team. Not really close

What are you talking about? Ginobilli in 2003 wasn't good
Neither was Parker

They were both very new players and Pop didn't even trust them


both were inconsistent and Ginobilli hardly got any minutes. Parker was a bit better then current Ty Lawson if anything.

[Yung D-Will]

Robinson> Thorpe
Bowen> Horry
Parker> Smith
Jackson> Thorpe
Ginobili> Any rocket bench player


Carl Herrera Chris Jent are your back up 3 and 4? They even spelled Jent's name wrong on Nba live. Thats how garbage he was.

Spurs have a much much better team. Not really close


Lets look at this great diffrence between their supporting cast



Pg: Kenny Smith: 12/1/4
Sg: Veron Maxwell 14/3/5
Sf: Robert Horry 10/5/3
Pf: Otis Thrope: 14/10/2
C: Hakeem Olajuwon:27/12/4

Mario Elie: 10/5/3
Sam Cassel: 7/2/3

Pg: Tony Parker: 16/5/3
Sg: Stephen Jackson:12/2/4
Sf: Bruce Bowen 7/1/2
Pf: Tim Duncan 23/13/4
C: David Robinson 9/5/1

Manu Ginobilli: 8/8/5
Steve Smith: 7/2/1



Yep you see the great diffrence in production between their supporting cast.

People need to realize there was a reason that was supposed to be a rebuilding year



O yea and that Chris Jent kid funny you shoud talk about him because outside of Duncan,Parker and Jackson he would have have been the highest scorer on the spurs.

10/5/2

[Harison]

And we established

1)Duncan is a greater winner then Hakeem(4 vs 2)

2)Duncan has better longevity then Hakeem

2nd is correct, 1st one isnt, for me greater winner isnt the same as more rings, for you it is. Horry is one of the greatest winners of all time, ladies and gentleman! But you could say who makes the biggest impact on the team matter and also the context? Exactly! :oldlol: Its like in other threads young Kobe stans and media riding on Kobe are claiming he is the best Laker ever, although for older fans who remember Magic its really no brainer who is the best Laker, same here - those who remember Hakeem pick him, those who dont - pick Duncan.



You're trying to tell me that we're discrediting Duncan's championships just because he didn't play in the 90's
:lol
No, I'm putting it into the context. Rings always matter, context always matter too (team, competition, era, rules, etc). I'm not discarding rings, while you discard the context.



Players have already admitted that the defense is better now then it used to be

Should we just discredit every championship won in the 80's because they didn't play against the great 00's defense?

Currently elite teams use slightly more advanced defensive tactics, so in this sense its correct, but its much easier to score individually now. Contradiction? Not if you understand the context. Individual defense was much more physical back then, rules allowed hand-checking and what was just a foul then, would be a Flagrant now. I'm sure you remember many coaches and players saying how for example Jordan would average even better numbers if he would play at the moment.

Another thing what concerns the defense - Hakeem was playing against All-time great defensive anchors, whom exactly is Duncan playing against?... Thats why elite bigs like Dream would simply abuse current weak frontcourts.



Okay lets not single out Jordan. Should we discredit Russel's achievements just because he didn't play in the 90's?
Achievements wise Russell is the best player ever, is he considered one? Top4 yes, but not Top1, why? Because one can put in the context everything, not just the rings, and its not the same as discrediting his achievements. Common sense.

[Yung D-Will]

The Horry argument again?

Was Horry the best player on those teams? Was he the main option?

No

We're talking about Duncan and Hakeem 2 top 10 players who have always been the main option on their team when winning championships

One has 4 championships the other has 2 championships so why bring in Horry into this argument when he's not even a star?

We might as well put Fisher in this thread

[Yung D-Will]

Achievements wise Russell is the best player ever, is he considered one? Top4 yes, but not Top1, why? Because one can put in the context everything, not just the rings, and its not the same as discrediting his achievements. Common sense.

Yes Russel is the greatest winner of all time. The reason he's not top 1 is because he wasn't as good a player as Jordan or Kareem. Not because he wasn't a greater winner.

Just like I don't mind people putting Hakeem over Duncan but you can't just deny he's a greater winner because of the era he played in.

[Yung D-Will]

Six things I consider when ranking players.

Peak: Hakeem
Prime:Hakeem
Championships(As the best player): Duncan
Individual awards: Duncan
Longevity/Consistency: Duncan
Playoff performances:Hakeem


That's why I think it can go either way

[Yung D-Will]

I don't know what's all this talk about put it in context

Because with how much speculation being brought into this thread about what if a player played in a diffrent era; i could easily say Hakeem wouldn't have won championships if Jordan hadn't retired.

[AirJordan23]

Yung D-Will

Your profile says you are 17 years old which probably means you barely saw Hakeem play, if that. Hence, you didn't see enough of Hakeem to form a legit opinion on him. You're most likely using raw statistics to make this comparison. You won't see me talking about Bird/Magic/KAJ because I possess little to no knowledge regarding those legends. I choose not to rank them because I never had the chance to follow their careers. Now you have most likely followed Duncan for a good portion of his career. Players and things in general tend to have the deepest impact on us when we're young. Hence the term 'nostalgia'. I watched Hakeem in the 90s and I can tell you I'm biased when it comes to this comparison. Dream is the greatest big man I've seen. I was in awe with his offensive arsenal and ability to step up at the right moment. I really have no problem with you taking Duncan but your decision is most likely influenced by who you've actually seen/followed. Just putting it out there.

[Yung D-Will]

Your profile says you are 17 years old which probably means you barely saw Hakeem play, if that. Hence, you didn't see enough of Hakeem to form a legit opinion on him. You're most likely using raw statistics to make this comparison. You won't see me talking about Bird/Magic/KAJ because I possess little to no knowledge regarding those legends. I choose not to rank them because I never had the chance to follow their careers. Now you have most likely followed Duncan for a good portion of his career. Players and things in general tend to have the deepest impact on us when we're young. Hence the term 'nostalgia'. I watched Hakeem in the 90s and I can tell you I'm biased when it comes to this comparison. Dream is the greatest big man I've seen. I was in awe with his offensive arsenal and ability to step up at the right moment. I really have no problem with you taking Duncan but your decision is most likely influenced by who you've actually seen/followed. Just putting it out there.

And yet I clearly stated I can see the argument for Hakeem. And I never once stated that Duncan was better then Hakeem. I'm not really seeing the bias here if I never even said either one was better.

I was just saying that it's stupid to deny Duncan was the greater winner because he played in a different era.

[amfirst]

I thought DUncan had 4 rings. But Hakeem may had greater competition as a result of less rings - Bulls, Lakers, Celts.

[chitownsfinest]

Six things I consider when ranking players.

Peak: Hakeem
Prime:Hakeem
Championships(As the best player): Duncan
Individual awards: Duncan
Longevity/Consistency: Duncan
Playoff performances:Hakeem


That's why I think it can go either way
Hakeem averaged 23/9/2/2 (points, rebs, steals, and blocks) in his thirteenth season

Duncan averaged 21/12/1/2 in his thirteenth season

I'd say longevity is equal as of now considering they both sustained equal play at their 13th seasons. If Duncan can play like he did last season for the next 2-3 seasons, I will put him over Hakeem in the longevity aspect considering Hakeem fell off after his 13th season due to injuries and old age.

[Yung D-Will]

Hakeem averaged 23/9/2/2 (points, rebs, steals, and blocks) in his thirteenth season

Duncan averaged 21/12/1/2 in his thirteenth season

I'd say longevity is equal as of now considering they both sustained equal play at their 13th seasons. If Duncan can play like he did last season for the next 2-3 seasons, I will put him over Hakeem in the longevity aspect considering Hakeem fell off after his 13th season due to injuries and old age.

You have to take into consideration that Hakeem had a very late prime compared to Duncan who's prime was early in his career.