Raw skill: Most skilled players of all-time

[72-10]

My attempt to rank skill

I might do a most skilled centers list later

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant
3. Allen Iverson
4. Stephen Curry
5. Kevin Durant
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Chris Paul
8. LeBron James

9. Larry Bird
10. Ray Allen
11. Dirk Nowitzki
12. George Gervin
13. Reggie Miller
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. Kyrie Irving
17. Magic Johnson
18. Pete Maravich
19. Oscar Robertson
20. Steve Nash
21. Clyde Drexler

[BigTicket]

Where are Stockton and Nash on your list ? They didn't have much in the way of size or athleticism, but still had HoF careers because of their skill. They should be top-5 at a minimum.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Where are Stockton and Nash on your list ? They didn't have much in the way of size or athleticism, but still had HoF careers because of their skill. They should be top-5 at a minimum.
Stockton literally had no left hand either to be fair. You should’ve mentioned Mark Price instead. He was basically a quicker version of Nash with better defense in a more physical era.

[72-10]

I think that those players are about as skilled as Pete Maravich.

[LostCause]

I think Ginobili should be on this list before Reggie and maybe even Clyde

[zeerghit]

My attempt to rank skill

I might do a most skilled centers list later

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant
3. Allen Iverson
4. Kevin Durant
5. Stephen Curry
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Chris Paul
8. LeBron James

9. Larry Bird
10. Dirk Nowitzki
11. George Gervin
12. Ray Allen
13. Jerry West
14. Julius Erving
15. Kyrie Irving
16. Magic Johnson
17. Pete Maravich
18. Oscar Robertson
19. Clyde Drexler
20. Reggie Miller
if u not putting wilt on the list gtfo with ur all 80s 90s players

[Gileraracer]

Lebron if stiff arms, offensive fouls, travels and flops are a skill


Edit: are collusions also a skill?

[72-10]

Would Wilt have been better than Hakeem in the 80s and 90s?

[3ball]

Stockton should be on there

And his left hand wasn't a weakness for him or any NBA player, and probably 90% of D1 players, and the majority of HS players and probably at least 1/3 of junior high players

Most high schools won't put you on varsity if your left hand isn't on point.. it's a standard part of the game

[72-10]

most collusions:lol

[zeerghit]

Would Wilt have been better than Hakeem in the 80s and 90s?
would any players from 80s and 90s in this era would be top 5 player? dont come with ur jordan sh*t u put in him in no1 and the guy cant shoot f*cking three

[Real14]

Lebron if stiff arms, offensive fouls, travels and flops are a skill


Edit: are collusions also a skill?
I agree, plus I think Lebron should be lower on that list as well.

[3ball]

Would Wilt have been better than Hakeem in the 80s and 90s?
old wilt played prime kareem to a stand-still in 70' and 71'.. it wasn't until 72' that Kareem started to outplay him

I think prime wilt would've dominated all of today's centers.. Kareem's peak stats occurred in 72', and wilt destroyed those stats 6 years earlier in 66', which were still way below his peak 50/25 stats (and 48 mpg, never fouling out)

according to Phil Jackson, wilt was stronger than Shaq with more endurance... Idk, it seems like Phil is saying wilt > shaq below - he doesn't say exactly, but he seems to give wilt more props:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IW6ET4PsLuk

[Phoenix]

Bird at #9? :coleman:

[ralph_i_el]

No Earl Boykins?

Gtfo

[Psileas]

How is Bird #9 when he won 3 MVP's in a row in the stacked mid 80's while having practically Wizards' Jordan athleticism? If anything, if pure skills are concerned I see no reason why he shouldn't be #1.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

"Wade and Lebron > Bird and Kyrie"

You're ranking the MOST SKILLED of all time...?

:oldlol:

1) Jordan/Kobe/Bird
4) Kyrie
5) Durant/CP

[FKAri]

"Wade and Lebron > Bird and Kyrie"

You're ranking the MOST SKILLED of all time...?

:oldlol:

1) Jordan/Kobe/Bird
4) Kyrie
5) Durant/CP
I wouldn't put MJ #1 on the most skilled all-time list. Kobe and Bird would certainly be up there but it'd be a list heavily dominated by PGs. People underrate the depth of the talent pool for that position and the skill needed to set yourself apart.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I wouldn't put MJ #1 on the most skilled all-time list. Kobe and Bird would certainly be up there but it'd be a list heavily dominated by PGs. People underrate the depth of the talent pool for that position and the skill needed to set yourself apart.

PGs definitely fill out most of the top 15-20.

Agree to disagree on Jordan though.

If we're including defense and pure fundamentals? He's got an argument for first. There's no gap between him and second like the OP mentioned though.

[FKAri]

PGs definitely fill out most of the top 15-20.

Agree to disagree on Jordan though.

If we're including defense and pure fundamentals? He's got an argument for first. There's no gap between him and second like the OP mentioned though.
Give MJ the athletic tools of ____ and MJ would still be better? For a lot of players, sure. But there'd be a few for whom I'd say no. Kobe and Bird being two of several.

[Manny98]

How is Jordan more skilled than Curry and CP3 lol he can't even shoot 3s and his handles are no where near as good

1. CP3
2. Curry
3. Nash
4. Kyrie
5. Maravich
6. Magic
7. KD
8. LeBron
9. Harden
10. Kobe

[andgar923]

My attempt to rank skill

I might do a most skilled centers list later

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant
3. Allen Iverson
4. Stephen Curry
5. Kevin Durant
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Chris Paul
8. LeBron James

9. Larry Bird
10. Ray Allen
11. Dirk Nowitzki
12. George Gervin
13. Reggie Miller
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. Kyrie Irving
17. Magic Johnson
18. Pete Maravich
19. Oscar Robertson
20. Steve Nash
21. Clyde Drexler

:no:

Oddly you don't even have the man in your avi on there.

No TMac who was better than most on that list. No Hill who again, is more skilled than most in that list. You didn't include the man that thought Kobe and Bron how to play the post... Hakeem.

It's sad to see how underrated KG continues to be. The man could do it ALL. He had a great post game, could handle the pill, could pass, could shoot from almost anywhere inside the 3 pt line, had great footwork, etc.

No Pierce?
No James Worthy?

I think there's too much emphasis on the 3pt shot today and less on other aspects of the game. I can't think of a player today that could do what Worthy did back then. Exceptional footwork, lightning fast 1st step and spin, could pass, could shoot, etc.

Big men are also undervalued for their skills.

Where's Barkley??? he could do EVERYTHING.
Where's Danny Manning? Yeah I said it. He wasn't flashy but was great at mostly everything.

No Duncan?? He has multiple rings and MVPs he must've been skilled?

Again, this list is 3pt and perimeter biased.

Older heads would include Aguirre, King, some will even say Shrempf, Chambers, older heads would start naming Oscar is too low. How can one average a triple double if he wasn't skilled??

The definition of ball handling has changed, but honestly 90% of in game ball handling hasn't changed much since the 80s (perhaps late 70s). Not every dribble Kyrie or CP3 make is an AND1 clip.

[3ball]

How is Jordan more skilled than Curry and CP3 lol he can't even shoot 3s and his handles are no where near as good

1. CP3
2. Curry
3. Nash
4. Kyrie
5. Maravich
6. Magic
7. KD
8. LeBron
9. Harden
10. Kobe

MJ's handles were better because he navigated defenders at a goat level without needing curry's and1 repertoire..

Case in point:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/KkEbDN.gif


Notice how his crossover dribble to split the defenders is his last dribble

Now, there isn't a player in the history of the game that can split the double from that distance and take off a 2-foot vertical at the rim, without taking another dribble, or at least not as nonchalantly - that is ultra-elite handle and footwork, far superior to anything curry is capable of

Here's another one, this time with what I call, the "jordan hop step".. you won't see it anywhere:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-03-2015/GD88B1.gif



One more with 2 hands vs pacers in 87':

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PnL61LgKHGk&t=0m13s


I don't see harden or anyone doing that
.

[Nash]

What is skilled? Scoring, assisting, rebounding and playmaking? Or fancy handles?

[Sakkreth]

What is skilled? Scoring, assisting, rebounding and playmaking? Or fancy handles?
All of these things combined, extra points if you are bigger as it's harder to coordinate bigger body. So no #1 all-time is Arvydas Sabonis.

[jongib369]

How is Jordan more skilled than Curry and CP3 lol he can't even shoot 3s and his handles are no where near as good

1. CP3
2. Curry
3. Nash
4. Kyrie
5. Maravich
6. Magic
7. KD
8. LeBron
9. Harden
10. Kobe
Let me guess you're about 15-20, and the most your attention span could handle was a 5-10 minute highlight of him?

Or are you more intelligent than that and you're just trying to trigger 3ball?

[ronniec]

Bird at #9? :coleman:

Lebron is #8???

So funny

[Bigrichmac]

How is Bird #9 when he won 3 MVP's in a row in the stacked mid 80's while having practically Wizards' Jordan athleticism? If anything, if pure skills are concerned I see no reason why he shouldn't be #1.
Exactly. Give LeBron, Birds body and he would drop of the list altogether.

[Phoenix]

Let me guess you're about 15-20, and the most your attention span could handle was a 5-10 minute highlight of him?

Or are you more intelligent than that and you're just trying to trigger 3ball?

I'm beginning to think he's actually an MJ fan and he's trolling us all. Nobody that dumb otherwise should be walking the streets freely.

[Odinn]

Bird and Shaq.

[FKAri]

Bird and Shaq.
Stop trying to be edgy you phucking phaggit.

[bizil]

When u combine scoring skillset, handles, passing, and defense as a package, I would say Kobe is the most skilled of all time. Scoring skillset wise, he has the best skillset ever. And from, he had great handles, passing, and defense for a SG. On top of it, could play or defend PG, SG, and SF at great levels if needed.

[3ball]

When u combine scoring skillset, handles, passing, and defense as a package, I would say Kobe is the most skilled of all time. Scoring skillset wise, he has the best skillset ever. And from, he had great handles, passing, and defense for a SG. On top of it, could play or defend PG, SG, and SF at great levels if needed.

I don't disagree, but i do wonder if having 10 skyhook-like go-to moves is better than kobe's 100 moves..... where he isn't nearly as good at them as MJ's pet moves, which worked with much higher frequency and efficiency:



"Clyde tapped the ball away from Jordan and converted it into a dunk, setting off a surge that evened the series at two games apiece. Nearly giddy, I went into the locker room afterward and found Clyde slumped in front of his locker, completely exhausted, an ice bag on every joint. And I said, “Clyde, that was a brilliant steal. You read Jordan perfectly.”

He looked up at me, shook his head, and said, “Stop, stop, you don’t understand. Most guys have two or three go-to moves; Jordan has nine. I guessed right, that’s all. I got lucky. Sometimes you get the bear, but usually the bear gets you.” Clyde knew the score. The Bulls, on the cusp of a dynasty, beat us in six games.”

https://uproxx.com/dimemag/clyde-drexler-quote-michael-jordan-dominant-92-finals/



Clyde is right - MJ had a ton of moves, but about 10 that he had mastered at a goat level... i.e. turnaround fadeaway.. that running jumpshot off one leg.. etc... And each move was standardized with footwork so perfect, it looked basic
.

[Rocket]

Magic Johnson does not get the respect he deserves from the young people here. Putting him at #17 is utterly ridiculous. Also, Hakeen "the Dream" should make any skill ranking list. The guy had guard skills in a center body.

[Gougou]

CP3, Curry, Kyrie, Allen Iverson.

Big Men:

Hakeem, Duncan.

[kennethgriffen]

why is ISH the leader of the free world in overlooking defense


i woulda went with


#1 - Kobe Bryant
#2 - Michael Jordan
#3 - Larry Bird
#4 - Hakeem Olajuwon
#5 - Kevin Garnett
#6 - Kevin Durant
#7 - Jerry West
#8 - John Stockton
#9 - Tim Duncan
#10 - Dwyane Wade

HM - Chris Paul ( can't put him in my top 10 cause hes a choker )




sure if its just raw offensive skills guys like nash, curry, kyrie, iverson, maravich, lebron, magic will be up there


but theres one entirely other side of the floor thats played 50% of the time

[superduper]

why is ISH the leader of the free world in overlooking defense


i woulda went with


#1 - Kobe Bryant
#2 - Michael Jordan
#3 - Larry Bird
#4 - Hakeem Olajuwon
#5 - Kevin Garnett
#6 - Kevin Durant
#7 - Jerry West
#8 - John Stockton
#9 - Tim Duncan
#10 - Dwyane Wade

HM - Chris Paul ( can't put him in my top 10 cause hes a choker )




sure if its just raw offensive skills guys like nash, curry, kyrie, iverson, maravich, lebron, magic will be up there


but theres one entirely other side of the floor thats played 50% of the time

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Cold soul]

This is my top 5 for most skilled players ever.

1) Kobe
2) Bird
3) Jordan
4) Hakeem
5) Kareem

[bigkingsfan]

Harden is more skilled than anyone on that list.

[tanibanana]

Steve Nash... won two MVP relying mostly on his skills. Not Height, not athleticism and not even popularity.

Remove his skills and he

[kennethgriffen]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


yeah i dunno why i put lebron in there. his lack of handles/lack of footwork/lack of post up/lack of ability to drive without needing stiff arms


even his shooting form ( while effective wide open ) is pretty damn ugly



maybe raw skills aren't lebrons thing. but he sure is dominant like when shaq abused guys down low


his only true raw skill is making fancy passes IMO

[Prometheus]

Shooting is the most fundamental, and most important skill in basketball.

Steph Curry is better at shooting than anyone else, ever... and seemingly by a wide margin.

He dominates a league with guys like KD, LeBron, Giannis... absolute freak athlete giants, in the body of a regular, lean, athletic dude. If we're talking just skill, Curry is probably #1





and Kobe

[superduper]

Shooting is the most fundamental, and most important skill in basketball.

Steph Curry is better at shooting than anyone else, ever... and seemingly by a wide margin.

He dominates a league with guys like KD, LeBron, Giannis... absolute freak athlete giants, in the body of a regular, lean, athletic dude. If we're talking just skill, Curry is probably #1





and Kobe

/thread

[3ball]

Best mid-range shooter

Most efficient handle

Best hangtime and shot making ability vs LENGTH

Best fadeaway

Best post game for non-big

Best combo leaper ever (goat-level off 1 and 2 legs)


Who am I? (the most skilled player ever)

[superduper]

Best mid-range shooter

Most efficient handle

Best hangtime and shot making ability vs LENGTH

Best fadeaway

Best post game outside of Hakeem and Kareem


Who am I? (the most skilled player ever)

Kobe

[3ball]

Kobe
Kobe's mid-range isn't on MJ's level - the stats show that very clearly

Kobe can't finish at the rim like MJ, and his hangtime doesn't compare - just an inferior shot-maker at the rim.. not close tbh

Kobe's post game is inferior

And MJ is a better combo leaper (goat-level off one or 2 legs)


The only area where Kobe compares is handle, but if I had to choose, I'd take MJ's because he did things with the ball that Kobe can only dream of (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13545818&postcount=23)

[kennethgriffen]

Kobe's mid-range isn't on MJ's level - the stats show that very clearly

Kobe can't finish at the rim like MJ, and his hangtime doesn't compare - just an inferior shot-maker at the rim.. not close tbh

Kobe's post game is inferior

And MJ is a better combo leaper (goat-level off one or 2 legs)


The only area where Kobe compares is handle, but if I had to choose, I'd take MJ's because he did things with the ball that Kobe can only dream of (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13545818&postcount=23)


i think mj had a slightly better turn around mid range jumper cause he could create more space on his fade


kobes one dribble pull up mid range however was more on point. the more verticality kobe got the better his shot was IMO

kobes post game was actually really effective.. early on his athleticism would allow him to just turn around and lay it in... later on he perfected a floater/hook with either hand ... i'd say at their peaks they're pretty equal

kobes handle was much better. he free lanced and changed direction/ did massive cross overs/between the leg moves/spin dribbles/reverse pivots/behind the backs.

kobe was just more polished offensively. his difficult shot making ability is second to none. his ability to recover anywhere on the floor and make a shot from 30-40 feet was something jordan didn't even think of trying..


i think jordan had bigger hands, was stronger, could jump higher, run faster, had a better finish inside. had more dominant on ball defense...but after that they're equal in everything or kobe has the advantage



jordans the goat. kobes the most skilled... pierce/rose/billups had it correct with that one

[3ball]

i think mj had a slightly better turn around mid range jumper cause he could create more space on his fade


kobes one dribble pull up mid range however was more on point. the more verticality kobe got the better his shot was IMO

kobes post game was actually really effective.. early on his athleticism would allow him to just turn around and lay it in... later on he perfected a floater/hook with either hand ... i'd say at their peaks they're pretty equal

kobes handle was much better. he free lanced and changed direction/ did massive cross overs/between the leg moves/spin dribbles/reverse pivots/behind the backs.

kobe was just more polished offensively. his difficult shot making ability is second to none. his ability to recover anywhere on the floor and make a shot from 30-40 feet was something jordan didn't even think of trying..


i think jordan had bigger hands, was stronger, could jump higher, run faster, had a better finish inside. had more dominant on ball defense...but after that they're equal in everything or kobe has the advantage



jordans the goat. kobes the most skilled... pierce/rose/billups had it correct with that one
I have no qualms with Kobe being the most skilled... Even MJ said Kobe could beat him because he saw someone in Kobe that was using the best moves and style (goat style)

I do think Pierce thinks MJ is the most skilled, but didn't get to say it on that show.. he said Kobe was "up there", but didn't say he was over MJ for sure.. he got cut off when he was about to say MJ, I believe.

But again, I have no issue with Kobe as most skilled... I think MJ's athleticism often combined with his near-goat skill to make some plays on another level from Kobe's capability.... but as far as raw skill, Kobe wins
.

[Draz]

Iverson over Curry?

[Cold soul]

Shooting is the most fundamental, and most important skill in basketball.

Steph Curry is better at shooting than anyone else, ever... and seemingly by a wide margin.

He dominates a league with guys like KD, LeBron, Giannis... absolute freak athlete giants, in the body of a regular, lean, athletic dude. If we're talking just skill, Curry is probably #1





and Kobe

Curry is high up there for sure but basketball is much more than just shooting you have to factor in everything.

[ArbitraryWater]

No Earl Boykins?

Gtfo

gtfoh you hipster

[DocSlam]

Did I scroll through this thread too quickly and completely miss Penny Hardaway's name??

https://66.media.tumblr.com/632e44a200a8df3ad8a7cf4e1bc43bef/tumblr_opp059LocU1sdydefo1_400.gif
https://66.media.tumblr.com/9f05e84dce294de80d3c64a26a9c82ea/tumblr_n715igdVQX1rgx7ico1_400.gif

[andgar923]

Did I scroll through this thread too quickly and completely miss Penny Hardaway's name??

https://66.media.tumblr.com/632e44a200a8df3ad8a7cf4e1bc43bef/tumblr_opp059LocU1sdydefo1_400.gif
https://66.media.tumblr.com/9f05e84dce294de80d3c64a26a9c82ea/tumblr_n715igdVQX1rgx7ico1_400.gif

You didn't see it cause it wasn't listed. Surprising since the OP has Penny as his avi.

No worries tho, I included him.

[bizil]

Best blends of shooting ability, handles, and passing as a package for their position:

PG - Curry

SG- Harden

SF- KD (crazy how his all around game evolved over the years!)

PF- Bird (cheating a bit. But the PF position doesn't really have pure shooters who had great handles AND great passing ability. Plus Bird played a lot of PF in his career). Dirk had the shooting of course. And pretty good handle for a 7 foot PF. But he lacked the passing. Webb, Barkley, and KG lack the three point shooting.

C- Boogie

[kkb_12]

Jason Kidd has to be in discussion for top 10

[bullettooth]

Bird should be higher on that list.

[sd3035]

Curry is definitely #1

Jordan might not even crack the top 10, Lebron isn't even close to the top 10

[ArbitraryWater]

Jason Kidd has to be in discussion for top 10

lol

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan is the most skilled player of all time. A couple of very rare guys like Bird are in that conversation, but I always laugh when I hear Kobe mentioned. Kobe in terms of individual isolation offense is one of the most skilled ever, yes. But Jordan's post game and off-ball game DESTROY Kobe's, and then Jordan also had skill edges in passing, rebounding, and shooting inside 22 feet.

The very, very few guys who ACTUALLY compare to MJ skill-wise offensively (really, I think only Bird does because like Jordan he did it on and off the ball, and in the post; Jordan's isolation game was stronger than Bird's, though) aren't there defensively.

People who suggest that a guy like Kobe was more skilled than Jordan are simply not looking at total skill-set in all facets of the game, but only a narrow portion - namely, 1-on-1 offensive skill. But at least saying Kobe is more skilled than Jordan is not as egregious as saying Lebron or Harden are. Kobe was a much more skilled offensive player than Harden.

[eliteballer]

Jordan is the most skilled player of all time. A couple of very rare guys like Bird are in that conversation, but I always laugh when I hear Kobe mentioned. Kobe in terms of individual isolation offense is one of the most skilled ever, yes. But Jordan's post game and off-ball game DESTROY Kobe's, and then Jordan also had skill edges in passing, rebounding, and shooting inside 22 feet.

The very, very few guys who ACTUALLY compare to MJ skill-wise offensively (really, I think only Bird does because like Jordan he did it on and off the ball, and in the post; Jordan's isolation game was stronger than Bird's, though) aren't there defensively.

People who suggest that a guy like Kobe was more skilled than Jordan are simply not looking at total skill-set in all facets of the game, but only a narrow portion - namely, 1-on-1 offensive skill. But at least saying Kobe is more skilled than Jordan is not as egregious as saying Lebron or Harden are. Kobe was a much more skilled offensive player than Harden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-tXvMriU0Y&t=22s

[Dray n Klay]

Best mid-range shooter

Most efficient handle

Best hangtime and shot making ability vs LENGTH

Best fadeaway

Best post game for non-big

Best combo leaper ever (goat-level off 1 and 2 legs)


Who am I? (the most skilled player ever)


LeBron

[superduper]

LeBron

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You might as well have said Deandre Jordan and you would've been more correct

[Prometheus]

Best mid-range shooter

Most efficient handle

Best hangtime and shot making ability vs LENGTH

Best fadeaway

Best post game for non-big

Best combo leaper ever (goat-level off 1 and 2 legs)


Who am I? (the most skilled player ever)

Jordan's work ethic was very well-documented. He perfected his craft. Definitely in the elite tier of "skill", ever.

But... I think we have to realize his staggering advantages have even more to do with his supreme talent. Imho he is the most talented ball player I have ever seen. His improvisational body control, raw athletic specs, strength, quickness, hops, balance... his giant hands... he had so many natural advantages. Great skill, better/more effective player than Kobe, but imho less skilled.

[Prometheus]

Curry is high up there for sure but basketball is much more than just shooting you have to factor in everything.

Yeah, definitely.

He's arguably the GOAT moving without the ball.

He's mentioned in the same breath as Kyrie Irving as a ball-handler, and deservedly so.

He's a tremendous passer and playmaker, perhaps not elite but very good.

And... he isn't just a great shooter. He's the best shooter ever by A LOT. His shooting ability is transformative. People look at the game differently, play the game differently because of Steph Curry. His 35-foot shot is respected. Have you become numb to that?

The guy is the size of an average lean, athletic adult. And he had - perhaps - the greatest offensive season ever.

If you don't think he deserves a nomination as the most skilled player in history, I would love to hear your argument.

[Dray n Klay]

Yeah, definitely.

He's arguably the GOAT moving without the ball.

He's mentioned in the same breath as Kyrie Irving as a ball-handler, and deservedly so.

He's a tremendous passer and playmaker, perhaps not elite but very good.

And... he isn't just a great shooter. He's the best shooter ever by A LOT. His shooting ability is transformative. People look at the game differently, play the game differently because of Steph Curry. His 35-foot shot is respected. Have you become numb to that?

The guy is the size of an average lean, athletic adult. And he had - perhaps - the greatest offensive season ever.

If you don't think he deserves a nomination as the most skilled player in history, I would love to hear your argument.


His skills don’t translate as the stakes get higher


Being skilled means being able to dominate in all levels of the NBA, not just the regular season


He can shoot from 35 feet in the regular season but can’t make a behind the back pass in the Finals?? :lol

[Prometheus]

[QUOTE=Dray n Klay]His skills don

[72-10]

I've decided to update my list - don't know how I forgot T-Mac.

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant
3. Allen Iverson
4. Stephen Curry
5. Kevin Durant
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Chris Paul
8. LeBron James

9. Larry Bird
10. Ray Allen
11. Dirk Nowitzki
12. George Gervin
13. Reggie Miller
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. Kyrie Irving
17. Tracy McGrady
18. Magic Johnson
19. Pete Maravich
20. Oscar Robertson
21. Steve Nash
22. Grant Hill
23. Clyde Drexler
24. Penny Hardaway
25. James Harden
26. John Stockton
27. Vince Carter
28. Eddie Jones
29. Kevin Garnett (most skilled 4 of all time)
29. Giannis Antetokounmpo
30. Russell Westbrook
31. Damian Lillard
32. Jason Williams (White Chocolate)
33. Charles Barkley
34. Karl Malone
35. Hakeem Olajuwon (most skilled 5 of all time)
36. Tim Hardaway
37. Dominique Wilkins
38. David Thompson
39. Gary Payton
40. Glen Rice
41. Scottie Pippen
42. Chris Mullin
43. Wilt Chamberlain
44. David Robinson
45. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
46. Shawn Kemp
47. Shaquille O'Neal
48. Allan Houston
49. Bill Sharman
50. Manu Ginobili

[ronniec]

I've decided to update my list - don't know how I forgot T-Mac.

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant
3. Allen Iverson
4. Stephen Curry
5. Kevin Durant
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Chris Paul
8. LeBron James

9. Larry Bird
10. Ray Allen
11. Dirk Nowitzki
12. George Gervin
13. Reggie Miller
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. Kyrie Irving
17. Tracy McGrady
18. Magic Johnson
19. Pete Maravich
20. Oscar Robertson
21. Steve Nash
22. Grant Hill
23. Clyde Drexler
24. Penny Hardaway
25. James Harden
26. John Stockton
27. Eddie Jones
28. Kevin Garnett (most skilled 4 of all time)
29. Giannis Antetokounmpo
30. Jason Williams (White Chocolate)
31. Charles Barkley
32. Karl Malone
33. Hakeem Olajuwon (most skilled 5 of all time)
34. Tim Hardaway
35. Dominique Wilkins
36. David Thompson

No Kareem???
Talk about big man, Yao has one of the best skills also

Shawn Kemp and Gary Payton?

No Scottie Pippen?

Sorry, your list has no credibility at all.
Don't just list out the players you "remember", this is crap job.

[72-10]

No Kareem???
Talk about big man, Yao has one of the best skills also

Shawn Kemp and Gary Payton?

No Scottie Pippen?

Sorry, your list has no credibility at all.
Don't just list out the players you "remember", this is crap job.

This is interesting

[72-10]

maybe Ewing's one - best jump shooting center of all time.

[Round Mound]

[B]No Charles Barkley? :facepalm :rant :no: At 6

[DaHeezy]

I've decided to update my list - don't know how I forgot T-Mac.

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant
3. Allen Iverson
4. Stephen Curry
5. Kevin Durant
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Chris Paul
8. LeBron James

9. Larry Bird
10. Ray Allen
11. Dirk Nowitzki
12. George Gervin
13. Reggie Miller
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. Kyrie Irving
17. Tracy McGrady
18. Magic Johnson
19. Pete Maravich
20. Oscar Robertson
21. Steve Nash
22. Grant Hill
23. Clyde Drexler
24. Penny Hardaway
25. James Harden
26. John Stockton
27. Vince Carter
28. Eddie Jones
29. Kevin Garnett (most skilled 4 of all time)
29. Giannis Antetokounmpo
30. Russell Westbrook
31. Damian Lillard
32. Jason Williams (White Chocolate)
33. Charles Barkley
34. Karl Malone
35. Hakeem Olajuwon (most skilled 5 of all time)
36. Tim Hardaway
37. Dominique Wilkins
38. David Thompson
39. Gary Payton
40. Glen Rice
41. Scottie Pippen
42. Chris Mullin
43. Wilt Chamberlain
44. David Robinson
45. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
46. Shawn Kemp
47. Shaquille O'Neal
48. Allan Houston
49. Bill Sharman
50. Manu Ginobili

The fact you forgot T-Mac makes this list void. T-Mac may be the most pure skilled player of all time.

[DaHeezy]

If you list off all basic basketball skills T-Mac may be the only person all-time that checks off every single box.

Which shows OP doesn't know his shit and made an obvious attempt to make yet another MJ slurpfest thread

[Mr.GOAT2408]

It's not the worst list, I'd put Kobe at #1 (only skillz MJ was obviously better) but Bird should be higher and LeBron should barely crack the top 25. Come on bruh

[Phenith]

The fact you forgot T-Mac makes this list void.

I was going to say the same thing about Grant Hill, that guy was all skill, barely looked like he was trying when he played.
Hill is one of those guy I really wish never got injured, we as fans missed out there.

[Phoenix]

This list has been revised and Bird still isn't top 5. It's brain cramp inducing....

[FKAri]

lol @ VC #27. You telling me there's only 26 players in HISTORY who were more skilled than this man? I love VC but he had mediocre handle and touch around the basket.

As for MJ #1? lol
I guess the most skilled basketball player of all time just happened to be 6'6'' 220lbs with a near 50'' vert and gigantic hands. Just a funny coincidence!

List is awful.

[DaHeezy]

lol @ VC #27. You telling me there's only 26 players in HISTORY who were more skilled than this man? I love VC but he had mediocre handle and touch around the basket.

As for MJ #1? lol
I guess the most skilled basketball player of all time just happened to be 6'6'' 220lbs with a near 50'' vert and gigantic hands. Just a funny coincidence!

List is awful.

OP is just making another MJ dickslurping thread.

He left off TRACY MCGRADY FFS.
No Arvydas Sabonis.
No Chris Webber
No Bob McAdoo
No Rasheed Wallace

A TON of one dimensional players. And of course the classic MJ ******ger move...Put Jordan at 1, then create seperation to the next player on list

Lol, can you see why I hate MJ stans?

[Manny98]

I've decided to update my list - don't know how I forgot T-Mac.

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant
3. Allen Iverson
4. Stephen Curry
5. Kevin Durant
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Chris Paul
8. LeBron James

9. Larry Bird
10. Ray Allen
11. Dirk Nowitzki
12. George Gervin
13. Reggie Miller
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. Kyrie Irving
17. Tracy McGrady
18. Magic Johnson
19. Pete Maravich
20. Oscar Robertson
21. Steve Nash
22. Grant Hill
23. Clyde Drexler
24. Penny Hardaway
25. James Harden
26. John Stockton
27. Vince Carter
28. Eddie Jones
29. Kevin Garnett (most skilled 4 of all time)
29. Giannis Antetokounmpo
30. Russell Westbrook
31. Damian Lillard
32. Jason Williams (White Chocolate)
33. Charles Barkley
34. Karl Malone
35. Hakeem Olajuwon (most skilled 5 of all time)
36. Tim Hardaway
37. Dominique Wilkins
38. David Thompson
39. Gary Payton
40. Glen Rice
41. Scottie Pippen
42. Chris Mullin
43. Wilt Chamberlain
44. David Robinson
45. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
46. Shawn Kemp
47. Shaquille O'Neal
48. Allan Houston
49. Bill Sharman
50. Manu Ginobili
Steve Nash not even top 20 :roll:

AI ahead of the likes of Bird,CP3 and Curry :roll:

Do you even know what skill means OP?

You have Giannis in the top 30 ahead of guys like Paul Pierce,Ginnolbli and Joe Johnson when most of his game is purely reliant on his athleticism

[bizil]

Jordan is the most skilled player of all time. A couple of very rare guys like Bird are in that conversation, but I always laugh when I hear Kobe mentioned. Kobe in terms of individual isolation offense is one of the most skilled ever, yes. But Jordan's post game and off-ball game DESTROY Kobe's, and then Jordan also had skill edges in passing, rebounding, and shooting inside 22 feet.

The very, very few guys who ACTUALLY compare to MJ skill-wise offensively (really, I think only Bird does because like Jordan he did it on and off the ball, and in the post; Jordan's isolation game was stronger than Bird's, though) aren't there defensively.

People who suggest that a guy like Kobe was more skilled than Jordan are simply not looking at total skill-set in all facets of the game, but only a narrow portion - namely, 1-on-1 offensive skill. But at least saying Kobe is more skilled than Jordan is not as egregious as saying Lebron or Harden are. Kobe was a much more skilled offensive player than Harden.

Won't argue TOO HARD if you have MJ over Kobe skill wise. BUT u can't laugh when people regard Kobe as the most skilled player either. Kobe was more of a long ball threat and had better handles than MJ. Inside the three point line, Kobe had the 2nd best scoring skillset of all time behind MJ.

Defensively, MJ was better than Kobe. BUT Kobe was still a great defensive guard. Passing wise Kobe isn't far off from MJ at all. So once again, Kobe was close to MJ in most areas of skill. BUT had better handles and FOR SURE incorporated the 3 ball more in his arsenal.

MJ is FOR SURE the superior player GOAT and peak-prime wise. BUT in terms of overall skill level, it's NOT A STRETCH to say Kobe was more skilled. If we are talking INSIDE the three point line only, then MJ is the most skilled ever. When I consider skill, I mean both sides of the rock. Once u factor ALL AREAS of the court, that's where Kobe pulls ahead.

[bizil]

I see some posters wondering where Bird would rank. If we are talking overall scoring skillset AND passing as a package, that's where Bird could be the best. He could shoot deep as well as any SF ever. Could pass as well as as SF ever. Could shoot midrange as well as any SF ever. Could post as well as any SF ever. The slashing to the rack part among SF's is where he's not a the top. BUT if u moved Bird to the PF (which he played often), then's he's among the best slashers and ball handles EVER if u move him to the PF.

Thing about Bird is he WASN'T a swingman. He's more of a SF-PF combo guy. While SF's like Bron would play the PG flat out. Or KD early in his career played lots of SG. And has the best handles of any 7 footer ever arguably. So Bird's skillset BESIDES handles/slashing stands up to ANY perimeter player. So when compared to the perimeter guys on both sides of the rock, he CAN'T be considered the most skilled. If u move him to PF, THEN he could be the most skilled on both sides of the rock. He was all league defense while playing as a combo PF/SF early in his career. When Bird peaked, he was more of a true SF. Late in his career, he was once again more of PF-SF.

[Phoenix]

Won't argue TOO HARD if you have MJ over Kobe skill wise. BUT u can't laugh when people regard Kobe as the most skilled player either. Kobe was more of a long ball threat and had better handles than MJ. Inside the three point line, Kobe had the 2nd best scoring skillset of all time behind MJ.

Defensively, MJ was better than Kobe. BUT Kobe was still a great defensive guard. Passing wise Kobe isn't far off from MJ at all. So once again, Kobe was close to MJ in most areas of skill. BUT had better handles and FOR SURE incorporated the 3 ball more in his arsenal.

MJ is FOR SURE the superior player GOAT and peak-prime wise. BUT in terms of overall skill level, it's NOT A STRETCH to say Kobe was more skilled. If we are talking INSIDE the three point line only, then MJ is the most skilled ever. When I consider skill, I mean both sides of the rock. Once u factor ALL AREAS of the court, that's where Kobe pulls ahead.

Skill is a tricky thing. Skill for skill WITH THE BALL, Kobe comes ahead in some areas and lags in others. Some are a result of talent, some aptitude, some good ole hard work in the gym, some era-specific( like more modern ball-handling aesthetically speaking and deeper range). Kobe developed some things that MJ didn't need to, simply due to physical advantages( hands, jumping, first step, overall explosion). Jordan played off the ball, catch and shoots, coming off screens better than all of the great shooting guards that succeeded him. Guys like Kobe, Tmac, Vince, A.I, Wade....all of those guys were gifted with the ball in different ways. The point of separation with MJ were his off the ball fundamentals which opened up easier avenues of scoring. That aspect of his game doesn't get the credit it should.

[Manny98]

What are MJ and BrickBe more SKILLED than Curry at?

Absolutely nothing :roll:

Curry is a lightyears better shooter

Curry is a lightyears better ball handler

Curry is a better passer

Curry is more skilled without the ball

[bizil]

Skill is a tricky thing. Skill for skill WITH THE BALL, Kobe comes ahead in some areas and lags in others. Some are a result of talent, some aptitude, some good ole hard work in the gym, some era-specific( like more modern ball-handling aesthetically speaking and deeper range). Kobe developed some things that MJ didn't need to, simply due to physical advantages( hands, jumping, first step, overall explosion). Jordan played off the ball, catch and shoots, coming off screens better than all of the great shooting guards that succeeded him. Guys like Kobe, Tmac, Vince, A.I, Wade....all of those guys were gifted with the ball in different ways. The point of separation with MJ were his off the ball fundamentals which opened up easier avenues of scoring. That aspect of his game doesn't get the credit it should.

Well said! Skill can be a tricky thing. When u consider both sides of the rock, Kobe and MJ are hands down the two most skilled ever. Inside the three line, MJ is the most skilled. When u factor the three, Kobe is the most skilled. MJ and Kobe played against each other, but their primes never connected.

And as we all know, Kobe patterned some much of his game off MJ. And he grew up with the three point shot while MJ didn't. So when it comes to the most skilled on both sides of the rock ever, MJ or Kobe is an appropriate answer in my opinion. I lean to Kobe, but won't argue hard with ANYBODY who says MJ.

[bizil]

What are MJ and BrickBe more SKILLED than Curry at?

Absolutely nothing :roll:

Curry is a lightyears better shooter

Curry is a lightyears better ball handler

Curry is a better passer

Curry is more skilled without the ball

Inside the 3 point line, MJ and Kobe are CLEARLY more skilled than Steph. Most of Steph's damage is shooting the long ball or getting to the rack. If we are talking shooting, passing, and handles as a package, then Steph is the most skilled of all time. If we are talking scoring skillset, defense, passing,and handles as a package (more of a total package type) then MJ and Kobe SMOKE Steph quite frankly! Inside the three point line, MJ and Kobe FOR SURE have more tools than Steph scoring the rock! That's why when we are talking most skilled, the particular criteria needs to be laid out. Because it can be interpreted many different ways!

[ronniec]

I see some posters wondering where Bird would rank. If we are talking overall scoring skillset AND passing as a package, that's where Bird could be the best. He could shoot deep as well as any SF ever. Could pass as well as as SF ever. Could shoot midrange as well as any SF ever. Could post as well as any SF ever. The slashing to the rack part among SF's is where he's not a the top. BUT if u moved Bird to the PF (which he played often), then's he's among the best slashers and ball handles EVER if u move him to the PF.

Thing about Bird is he WASN'T a swingman. He's more of a SF-PF combo guy. While SF's like Bron would play the PG flat out. Or KD early in his career played lots of SG. And has the best handles of any 7 footer ever arguably. So Bird's skillset BESIDES handles/slashing stands up to ANY perimeter player. So when compared to the perimeter guys on both sides of the rock, he CAN'T be considered the most skilled. If u move him to PF, THEN he could be the most skilled on both sides of the rock. He was all league defense while playing as a combo PF/SF early in his career. When Bird peaked, he was more of a true SF. Late in his career, he was once again more of PF-SF.

Shifting goal post???

Kevin McHale joined the Celtics in 80-81 and played till after Bird retired.
Yes, he got the best 6th man award, but his playing minutes were 20.1, 28.34, 28.6, 31.4, 33.6, 35.3, 39.7, 37.3, 36.9, 33.2 (till Bird retired)...

Major minutes as a PF for McHale.

Larry Bird WAS A SF, just part time PF in non-significant minutes.

[FKAri]

Inside the 3 point line, MJ and Kobe are CLEARLY more skilled than Steph. Most of Steph's damage is shooting the long ball or getting to the rack. If we are talking shooting, passing, and handles as a package, then Steph is the most skilled of all time. If we are talking scoring skillset, defense, passing,and handles as a package (more of a total package type) then MJ and Kobe SMOKE Steph quite frankly! Inside the three point line, MJ and Kobe FOR SURE have more tools than Steph scoring the rock! That's why when we are talking most skilled, the particular criteria needs to be laid out. Because it can be interpreted many different ways!
MJ's skillset was geared towards using his quickness and first step to get to a spot on the floor and thereupon using his combination of height and vertical to elevate and hit the shot. That is 90% athleticism and 10% skill. Skill is a very small part of that equation. The unparalleled combination of quickness + height/length + elevation was the real magic. Seriously, who in NBA history can better that athletic equation?

Sure he had tremendous ball control (read: huge hands to palm the ball imperceptibly between dribbles). He was especially good at maintaining focus and balance through contact which came in quite handy when he made the fadeaway a big part of his game. Is that a skill or a physical talent? I'll concede here if you wish. What about coordination? Another huge MJ attribute. How much of that was skill and how much of it is a physical attribute?

All in all a very skilled player. Absolutely, by no means, and inarguably were they GOAT level skills. Top 100 if he's lucky. I'd have Kobe higher. LeBron would be lucky to be in the top 500. And even that would be entirely on the back of the deftness of his single hand flick passes.

[bizil]

Shifting goal post???

Kevin McHale joined the Celtics in 80-81 and played till after Bird retired.
Yes, he got the best 6th man award, but his playing minutes were 20.1, 28.34, 28.6, 31.4, 33.6, 35.3, 39.7, 37.3, 36.9, 33.2 (till Bird retired)...

Major minutes as a PF for McHale.

Larry Bird WAS A SF, just part time PF in non-significant minutes.

For starters DUMBASS, Cornbread Maxwell played for Boston from 77-78 to 84-85. He started THE MAJORITY of the games he wore a Celtic uniform at SF. So it was CLEAR AS DAY that Bird would be listed as the PF when he was on the floor with Cornbread. Cedric was only 6'8 and 205 pounds. Bird was the size of many PF's in the league. IF ANYTHING, just as tall as a lot of them. Cornbread was Finals MVP on Bird's first title team. Bird made All Defensive Team by DEFENDING PF's!!!! Cornbread was checking the SF's DUMBASS!!!

Sometimes, u have two SF's playing together as the starting forwards. Barry-Wilkes, Wilkes-Worthy, and Maxwell-Bird are all examples. In these setups, guys like Worthy and Bird ASSUMED the PF duties. BECAUSE they were just as tall or big as many of the PF's. And IN Worthy's case so athletic he could play bigger than his size. During the game, OF COURSE they would play SF as well. And OVER TIME, settle into more of SF role.

So NO Bird DID NOT play non-significant minutes at PF. He started the game as a PF then WOULD SHIFT to SF to play alongside McHale. Just like you have swingmen and combo guards, you have COMBO FORWARDS DUMBASS!! From there once Kev started and Cornbread went to the Clippers, Bird didn't play PF NEARLY as much. Once McHale went BACK to coming off the bench, Bird played PF more often. Because young swingmen like Reggie Lewis and Kevin Gamble entered the picture.

[ronniec]

For starters DUMBASS, Cornbread Maxwell played for Boston from 77-78 to 84-85. He started THE MAJORITY of the games he wore a Celtic uniform at SF. So it was CLEAR AS DAY that Bird would be listed as the PF when he was on the floor with Cornbread. Cedric was only 6'8 and 205 pounds. Bird was the size of many PF's in the league. IF ANYTHING, just as tall as a lot of them. Cornbread was Finals MVP on Bird's first title team. Bird made All Defensive Team by DEFENDING PF's!!!! Cornbread was checking the SF's DUMBASS!!!

Sometimes, u have two SF's playing together as the starting forwards. Barry-Wilkes, Wilkes-Worthy, and Maxwell-Bird are all examples. In these setups, guys like Worthy and Bird ASSUMED the PF duties. BECAUSE they were just as tall or big as many of the PF's. And IN Worthy's case so athletic he could play bigger than his size. During the game, OF COURSE they would play SF as well. And OVER TIME, settle into more of SF role.

So NO Bird DID NOT play non-significant minutes at PF. He started the game as a PF then WOULD SHIFT to SF to play alongside McHale. Just like you have swingmen and combo guards, you have COMBO FORWARDS DUMBASS!! From there once Kev started and Cornbread went to the Clippers, Bird didn't play PF NEARLY as much. Once McHale went BACK to coming off the bench, Bird played PF more often. Because young swingmen like Reggie Lewis and Kevin Gamble entered the picture.

Too many resources saying Bird was the SF but of course, some would like to argue that because of his size.

Probably you don't know, Cedric Maxwell was a PF/C when playing college.
He was a PF/C.

Start from day 1 I watched NBA, watched Larry Bird played for Celtics, he was listed as a SF. Boston Celtics listed him as a SF. He played as a SF.
Cedric Maxwell and McHale were the PF.

If you want to argue, go ahead.

[FireDavidKahn]

No Garnett?:biggums:

[bizil]

No Garnett?:biggums:

For the guys who played mainly PF or C, u could make the case KG is the MOST SKILLED in terms of scoring skillset, handles, passing, and defense as a package. No doubt about it!! In my posts, I was talking about perimeter players. But when u look at the PF and C guys, KG OVERALL SKILL WISE doesn't take a backseat to ANYBODY!

[bizil]

Too many resources saying Bird was the SF but of course, some would like to argue that because of his size.

Probably you don't know, Cedric Maxwell was a PF/C when playing college.
He was a PF/C.

Start from day 1 I watched NBA, watched Larry Bird played for Celtics, he was listed as a SF. Boston Celtics listed him as a SF. He played as a SF.
Cedric Maxwell and McHale were the PF.

If you want to argue, go ahead.

U just don't want to learn! LMAO Bird overall GOES DOWN as a SF! I said that in ALL MY POSTS! But I also said he played PLENTY OF PF in his career. So much so he started there EARLY in his career. Along with Cornbread. Cornbread WAS NOT a pure PF!!! He was a SF who could play some PF as well. Basketball Reference lists Maxwell as a SF HIS WHOLE CAREER! I know he played some PF, BUT the fact remains he OBVIOUSLY played a ton of SF!

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/maxwece01.html

Was Bird like a Karl Malone who played PF VIRTUALLY all the damn time? NO!!! Bird played PF and SF when he first entered the league. ONCE McHale started, Bird started at SF. And stayed there virtually all the time WHILE McHale was in the starting lineup.

Bird's PEAK DAYS were as a SF. Bird and Cornbread were BOTH guys who went between SF and PF. Some list Bird's first 4 or 5 years as a PF BECAUSE he defended the PF's and had his best rebounding years at that time. Offensively, I'm sure Bird likely ran SF sets while Cedric could have ran the PF sets. I'm willing to admit that. BUT it's wrong TO SAY Maxwell was primarily a PF! ESPECICALLY before Bird joined Boston.

Hell Bird HIMSELF said he played some PF!!! And ENJOYED IT! Even when Bird played SF, McHale USUALLY checked the high scoring SF's. While Bird DEFENDED the PF's. As I SAID BEFORE, Bird made the All Defensive Team DUE TO defending PF's. If he checked SF's primarly, NO WAY does he make All Defensive Team:

https://youtu.be/7S87QwPyfFI

Bird's Basketball Reference page shows him being listed as a PF his first five years in the league:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html

So the BOTTOM LINE is historically Bird goes down as a SF. I'm aware of that AND THAT's the position he should go down as. But that DOESN'T change the fact he came in the league starting ALONGSIDE a SF in Cornbread Maxwell. AND FOR THE RECORD, Bird played as a PF-C at Indiana State. He was HERALDED as mix between Bob McAdoo(size and scoring skillset wise) and Rick Barry (floor game and scoring skillset wise).

[DaHeezy]

For the guys who played mainly PF or C, u could make the case KG is the MOST SKILLED in terms of scoring skillset, handles, passing, and defense as a package. No doubt about it!! In my posts, I was talking about perimeter players. But when u look at the PF and C guys, KG OVERALL SKILL WISE doesn't take a backseat to ANYBODY!
:roll:
You're the corniest poster in the NBA forum

[Young X]

^ No, You are.

[The Iron Fist]

How is Kareem not even listed?:biggums:

[The Iron Fist]

:no:

Oddly you don't even have the man in your avi on there.

No TMac who was better than most on that list. No Hill who again, is more skilled than most in that list. You didn't include the man that thought Kobe and Bron how to play the post... Hakeem.

It's sad to see how underrated KG continues to be. The man could do it ALL. He had a great post game, could handle the pill, could pass, could shoot from almost anywhere inside the 3 pt line, had great footwork, etc.

No Pierce?
No James Worthy?

I think there's too much emphasis on the 3pt shot today and less on other aspects of the game. I can't think of a player today that could do what Worthy did back then. Exceptional footwork, lightning fast 1st step and spin, could pass, could shoot, etc.

Big men are also undervalued for their skills.

Where's Barkley??? he could do EVERYTHING.
Where's Danny Manning? Yeah I said it. He wasn't flashy but was great at mostly everything.

No Duncan?? He has multiple rings and MVPs he must've been skilled?

Again, this list is 3pt and perimeter biased.

Older heads would include Aguirre, King, some will even say Shrempf, Chambers, older heads would start naming Oscar is too low. How can one average a triple double if he wasn't skilled??

The definition of ball handling has changed, but honestly 90% of in game ball handling hasn't changed much since the 80s (perhaps late 70s). Not every dribble Kyrie or CP3 make is an AND1 clip.
One of the worst lists I have ever seen, for any made up category.

[FKAri]

MJ's skillset was geared towards using his quickness and first step to get to a spot on the floor and thereupon using his combination of height and vertical to elevate and hit the shot. That is 90% athleticism and 10% skill. Skill is a very small part of that equation. The unparalleled combination of quickness + height/length + elevation was the real magic. Seriously, who in NBA history can better that athletic equation?

Sure he had tremendous ball control (read: huge hands to palm the ball imperceptibly between dribbles). He was especially good at maintaining focus and balance through contact which came in quite handy when he made the fadeaway a big part of his game. Is that a skill or a physical talent? I'll concede here if you wish. What about coordination? Another huge MJ attribute. How much of that was skill and how much of it is a physical attribute?

All in all a very skilled player. Absolutely, by no means, and inarguably were they GOAT level skills. Top 100 if he's lucky. I'd have Kobe higher. LeBron would be lucky to be in the top 500. And even that would be entirely on the back of the deftness of his single hand flick passes.

:confusedshrug:

[34-24 Footwork]

Tracy Mcgrady didn't make the list, but Lebron is number 8.


https://media.giphy.com/media/11mvEA6YT6R7gI/giphy.gif

[3ball]

MJ's skillset was geared towards using his quickness and first step to get to a spot on the floor and thereupon using his combination of height and vertical to elevate and hit the shot. That is 90% athleticism and 10% skill. Skill is a very small part of that equation. The unparalleled combination of quickness + height/length + elevation was the real magic. Seriously, who in NBA history can better that athletic equation?

Sure he had tremendous ball control (read: huge hands to palm the ball imperceptibly between dribbles). He was especially good at maintaining focus and balance through contact which came in quite handy when he made the fadeaway a big part of his game. Is that a skill or a physical talent? I'll concede here if you wish. What about coordination? Another huge MJ attribute. How much of that was skill and how much of it is a physical attribute?

All in all a very skilled player. Absolutely, by no means, and inarguably were they GOAT level skills. Top 100 if he's lucky. I'd have Kobe higher. LeBron would be lucky to be in the top 500. And even that would be entirely on the back of the deftness of his single hand flick passes.


A lot of guys have a quick first step, but they couldn't do what MJ did

Getting to the perfect spot takes footwork, skill, wisdom and incredible instinct... MJ wasn't taking half the shot-clock to find that spot - he was doing it within a second or 2 upon the catch.. notice the frantic way in which MJ conducted himself before and upon the catch - that's because he was about to shred the defender immediately upon catching the ball..

also, elevating for the shot and converting it in the wide variety of ways that MJ did (goat shot-maker), takes incredible skill as well

The fadeaway (which is the same as saying 'the jumpshot'), the footwork, instinct and the overall ability shred a defender within a second or 2 on-ball or off is what gave MJ the goat skill
.

[bizil]

Tracy Mcgrady didn't make the list, but Lebron is number 8.


https://media.giphy.com/media/11mvEA6YT6R7gI/giphy.gif

For the perimeter guys, T Mac FOR SURE has to be way up there. When u combine scoring skillset, handles, and passing as a package, I'm talking top 3-5 all time material among the perimeter guys. For me the MAIN DIFFERENCE between him and Kobe was actually the defensive end of the court. There's a reason why Kobe said T Mac was the toughest person for him to guard. The fact he was nearly 6'9 with that type of skillset and athletic ability was SICK!!

[34-24 Footwork]

No TMac or Penny Hardaway.

Bron and Reggie Miller ahead of Kyrie, huh?

Gotcha


:lol :lol

[34-24 Footwork]

For the perimeter guys, T Mac FOR SURE has to be way up there. When u combine scoring skillset, handles, and passing as a package, I'm talking top 3-5 all time material among the perimeter guys. For me the MAIN DIFFERENCE between him and Kobe was actually the defensive end of the court. There's a reason why Kobe said T Mac was the toughest person for him to guard. The fact he was nearly 6'9 with that type of skillset and athletic ability was SICK!!

Just couldn't stay healthy. He's definitely a top 5 in skillset.

[FKAri]

A lot of guys have a quick first step, but they couldn't do what MJ did

Getting to the perfect spot takes footwork, skill, wisdom and incredible instinct... MJ wasn't taking half the shot-clock to find that spot - he was doing it within a second or 2 upon the catch.. notice the frantic way in which MJ conducted himself before and upon the catch - that's because he was about to shred the defender immediately upon catching the ball..

also, elevating for the shot and converting it in the wide variety of ways that MJ did (goat shot-maker), takes incredible skill as well

The fadeaway (which is the same as saying 'the jumpshot'), the footwork, instinct and the overall ability shred a defender within a second or 2 on-ball or off is what gave MJ the goat skill
.
So in your opinion, MJ had the GOAT skill, GOAT athleticism and GOAT mentality?

[3ball]

So in your opinion, MJ had the GOAT skill, GOAT athleticism and GOAT mentality?
Goat combination of the 3

The only guy that was goat-level in all three..

I view skill on the professional level as skill that's correlated with winning the most.. this is possible with a player like MJ, whose elite on-ball/off-ball skillset got the most out of ballhandlers and play-finishers alike, fit into a system, and ultimately yielded the best offenses, brand of ball, and teams of his era, and possibly ever

Lebron can't say any of this... His ball-dominant style as a frontcourt player is a bitch to build around.. it needs a constant stream of "more help" because it marginalizes various players and doesn't yield teamwork that compares to his Finals opponents or teams that upset him.

Ultimately, lebron's weaker championship record didn't reflect lack of personal or supporting talent, but an approach to the game that didn't yield the best offenses, brand of ball, and teams of his era.. this causes all the underdog talk, and subsequent attempts to change the goat criteria away from winning, into losing but "carrying" a team

[ImKobe]

Just couldn't stay healthy. He's definitely a top 5 in skillset.

Definitely... he was basically a 6-8 Kobe.

[72-10]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]No Charles Barkley? :facepalm :rant :no: At 6

[72-10]

If you list off all basic basketball skills T-Mac may be the only person all-time that checks off every single box.

Which shows OP doesn't know his shit and made an obvious attempt to make yet another MJ slurpfest thread

r u sh*tting me? u really think his defense was good? is defense not a skill? And regardless, he doesn't have the body of work some of these guys have, he had a great prime and some other great stuff

[72-10]

Skill is a tricky thing. Skill for skill WITH THE BALL, Kobe comes ahead in some areas and lags in others. Some are a result of talent, some aptitude, some good ole hard work in the gym, some era-specific( like more modern ball-handling aesthetically speaking and deeper range). Kobe developed some things that MJ didn't need to, simply due to physical advantages( hands, jumping, first step, overall explosion). Jordan played off the ball, catch and shoots, coming off screens better than all of the great shooting guards that succeeded him. Guys like Kobe, Tmac, Vince, A.I, Wade....all of those guys were gifted with the ball in different ways. The point of separation with MJ were his off the ball fundamentals which opened up easier avenues of scoring. That aspect of his game doesn't get the credit it should.

Yeah, and some are a result of r*tard

[72-10]

For the guys who played mainly PF or C, u could make the case KG is the MOST SKILLED in terms of scoring skillset, handles, passing, and defense as a package. No doubt about it!! In my posts, I was talking about perimeter players. But when u look at the PF and C guys, KG OVERALL SKILL WISE doesn't take a backseat to ANYBODY!

Yeah, KG the most skilled 4 of all time, no doubter. He could draw the defense away from the basket with an actually consistent mid-range shot.

[72-10]

So in your opinion, MJ had the GOAT skill, GOAT athleticism and GOAT mentality?

keep milking that GOAT argument:applause:

[72-10]

I was tired, cut me some slack with this TMAC/Penny hate

[Round Mound]

I don't like what you said but Barkley on my updated list at 33 playa

What did i say? I just said before that when he turned 33 he lost a big part of his athletcism, speed, power, leaping ability and agility. Also he gained weight and could not perform at the level he once could. At that height he needed the athleticism because of his punshing style of play. Once you reach your 30s that all goes away. Barkley was the perfect mixture of power and skill in on package. He is too low on your list. If you talk PFs of all time he is the most skilled no questions asked.

[72-10]

What did i say? I just said before that when he turned 33 he lost a big part of his athletcism, speed, power, leaping ability and agility. Also he gained weight and could not perform at the level he once could. At that height he needed the athleticism because of his punshing style of play. Once you reach your 30s that all goes away. Barkley was the perfect mixture of power and skill in on package. He is too low on your list. If you talk PFs of all time he is the most skilled no questions asked.

KG had a mid-range game including playing with his back to the basket when did Barkley have that

[DaHeezy]

r u sh*tting me? u really think his defense was good? is defense not a skill? And regardless, he doesn't have the body of work some of these guys have, he had a great prime and some other great stuff

This is about the most skilled, not body of work dumbass. Your thread. :facepalm

[72-10]

This is about the most skilled, not body of work dumbass. Your thread. :facepalm

Well, I agree that it's mostly about sheer skill, but there has to be an appreciable sample size to analyze as well, I mean it's like 20% of the argument or something. And he really doesn't have much defense. But I agree that he should be higher.

[DaHeezy]

Well, I agree that it's mostly about sheer skill, but there has to be an appreciable sample size to analyze as well, I mean it's like 20% of the argument or something. And he really doesn't have much defense. But I agree that he should be higher.
No defense?
Yet you have Iverson and Curry at #3 and #4?
:roll:
But in terms of basketball pure skill, TMac is one of the few that ticks all boxes.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

MJ's skillset was geared towards using his quickness and first step to get to a spot on the floor and thereupon using his combination of height and vertical to elevate and hit the shot. That is 90% athleticism and 10% skill. Skill is a very small part of that equation. The unparalleled combination of quickness + height/length + elevation was the real magic. Seriously, who in NBA history can better that athletic equation?

Sure he had tremendous ball control (read: huge hands to palm the ball imperceptibly between dribbles). He was especially good at maintaining focus and balance through contact which came in quite handy when he made the fadeaway a big part of his game. Is that a skill or a physical talent? I'll concede here if you wish. What about coordination? Another huge MJ attribute. How much of that was skill and how much of it is a physical attribute?

All in all a very skilled player. Absolutely, by no means, and inarguably were they GOAT level skills. Top 100 if he's lucky. I'd have Kobe higher. LeBron would be lucky to be in the top 500. And even that would be entirely on the back of the deftness of his single hand flick passes.

Agreed.

MJ and LBJ are ELITE Athletes and rely on that so much.

No way in heck they are the most skilled or cracking the top notch.

Off the top of my head
John Stockton
Hakeem Olajuwon
Steph Curry
Tracy McGrady
Kyrie Irving
Chris Paul
Jason Kidd (I say his D and passing make up for his unpolished shooting)
Allen Iverson
Jamal Crawford
Jason Williams
Pete Maravich
Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Manu Ginobli
Mark Price
Kemba Walker
Earl Boykins
Kobe Bryant


--- I would trust them to win games of H-O-R-S-E or any of those passing dribbling drills at a higher rate than MJ or LBJ

[FKAri]

Goat combination of the 3

The only guy that was goat-level in all three.. Wait so which one is it? GOAT combination or GOAT in all 3?



I view skill on the professional level as skill that's correlated with winning the most.. What does that even mean?

this is possible with a player like MJ, whose elite on-ball/off-ball skillset got the most out of ballhandlers and play-finishers alike, fit into a system, and ultimately yielded the best offenses, brand of ball, and teams of his era, and possibly ever

Lebron can't say any of this... Why the **** are you talking about LeBron?

His ball-dominant style as a frontcourt player is a bitch to build around.. it needs a constant stream of "more help" because it marginalizes various players and doesn't yield teamwork that compares to his Finals opponents or teams that upset him.

Ultimately, lebron's weaker championship record didn't reflect lack of personal or supporting talent, but an approach to the game that didn't yield the best offenses, brand of ball, and teams of his era.. this causes all the underdog talk, and subsequent attempts to change the goat criteria away from winning, into losing but "carrying" a team
Why the **** are you STILL talking about LeBron?

Here's what I said earlier about LeBron you imbecile:

LeBron would be lucky to be in the top 500. And even that would be entirely on the back of the deftness of his single hand flick passes.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Won't argue TOO HARD if you have MJ over Kobe skill wise. BUT u can't laugh when people regard Kobe as the most skilled player either. Kobe was more of a long ball threat and had better handles than MJ. Inside the three point line, Kobe had the 2nd best scoring skillset of all time behind MJ.

Defensively, MJ was better than Kobe. BUT Kobe was still a great defensive guard. Passing wise Kobe isn't far off from MJ at all. So once again, Kobe was close to MJ in most areas of skill. BUT had better handles and FOR SURE incorporated the 3 ball more in his arsenal.

MJ is FOR SURE the superior player GOAT and peak-prime wise. BUT in terms of overall skill level, it's NOT A STRETCH to say Kobe was more skilled. If we are talking INSIDE the three point line only, then MJ is the most skilled ever. When I consider skill, I mean both sides of the rock. Once u factor ALL AREAS of the court, that's where Kobe pulls ahead.

Jordan's off-ball game takes a dump on Kobe's. I honestly don't think it's a stretch to say that Jordan is one of the best ever at moving without the ball. That alone sets him apart from and above Kobe.

When people start talking about skill as in "can player X excel at some drill in isolation" it shows me that they don't really understand basketball skill. YES, you need to have the requisite technical skills, but they also have to be second-nature enough to be called upon at game speed and in various situations. Kobe has never in a million years demonstrated as much brilliance on a single play as this one from ancient Wizards Jordan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01jztnl7vvc#t=1m11s

Ridiculous off-ball work, using the defenders' momentum and lines of vision against them; then he ensures he comes tight off the curl so the defender can't squeeze through, gives a quick up-fake to get the big on his heels and goes right into a lead-foot retraction drive, takes one dribble and passes through 3 defenders off the dribble for the score. Just amazing. Beautiful.

I could post literally dozens of plays like this from Jordan. From Bird as well. Plays where they used multiple on- and off-ball skills as well as perfect reading and setting up of the defense to make plays. You don't really see too much of that from a guy like Kobe or TMac.

[OldSchoolBBall]

What are MJ and BrickBe more SKILLED than Curry at?

Absolutely nothing :roll:

Curry is a lightyears better shooter

Curry is a lightyears better ball handler

Curry is a better passer

Curry is more skilled without the ball

Curry is not more skilled off the ball than Jordan. Not a better rebounder. Not better footwork in any aspect of the game (triple-threat, post etc.). Not a better post player. Jordan was also the better shooter from 22 feet and in. Jordan of course the far better slasher and finisher, especially lefty (which is skill).

[bizil]

Jordan's off-ball game takes a dump on Kobe's. I honestly don't think it's a stretch to say that Jordan is one of the best ever at moving without the ball. That alone sets him apart from and above Kobe.

When people start talking about skill as in "can player X excel at some drill in isolation" it shows me that they don't really understand basketball skill. YES, you need to have the requisite technical skills, but they also have to be second-nature enough to be called upon at game speed and in various situations. Kobe has never in a million years demonstrated as much brilliance on a single play as this one from ancient Wizards Jordan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01jztnl7vvc#t=1m11s

Ridiculous off-ball work, using the defenders' momentum and lines of vision against them; then he ensures he comes tight off the curl so the defender can't squeeze through, gives a quick up-fake to get the big on his heels and goes right into a lead-foot retraction drive, takes one dribble and passes through 3 defenders off the dribble for the score. Just amazing. Beautiful.

I could post literally dozens of plays like this from Jordan. From Bird as well. Plays where they used multiple on- and off-ball skills as well as perfect reading and setting up of the defense to make plays. You don't really see too much of that from a guy like Kobe or TMac.

So you're telling me Kobe WASN'T capable of doing those same things!!! LOL Once again, I'm not gonna argue too hard if people think MJ is more skilled overall than Kobe. I certainly think MJ was the better player and the GOAT.

But in terms of overall basketball skill, Kobe FOR SURE has a case as the most skilled player of all time. MJ HIMSELF wouldn't tell you there is a HUGE GAP in their overall skill level. That's where you are messing up in all your posts. It's NOT an uncommon opinion that Kobe is the most skilled player of all time. Just heard Billups the other day on NBA Countdown say Kobe was the most skilled ever. With the three ball becoming much more of a premium in the sport, Kobe's EDGE on MJ there can't be overlooked. WHEN talking about overall skill level.

The gap between him and MJ WASN'T so much about overall skill on both sides of the rock. It was just about MJ being more efficient and the better player. But the way you frame, u make it seem like Kobe WASN'T in MJ's league skill level wise. The gap between MJ GOAT wise is MUCH BIGGER than the gap in terms of their skill levels.

[moongaze]

Most skilled players I've ever seen (I was born in mid 80s And never really got into bird/magic era)

Kyrie, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kobe, Jordan, Lebron, Curry, Dirk, Jason Williams, Steve Nash, Durant, Kyle Korver


I'll add more when I think of more

[72-10]

Isiah Thomas and Calvin Murphy?

[hiphopanonymous]

Elgin and Kobe are to of my favs for this particular category. I also like Bird and Pistol, as good nominations. Depends on what your preferred mix of inside and outside work is - could also depend on how much you value specific niches of skill like ball handling or shooting or what have you.

[chocolatethunder]

Laugh all you want but Derrick Coleman should be way up there too

[OldSchoolBBall]

So you're telling me Kobe WASN'T capable of doing those same things!!! LOL Once again, I'm not gonna argue too hard if people think MJ is more skilled overall than Kobe. I certainly think MJ was the better player and the GOAT.

But in terms of overall basketball skill, Kobe FOR SURE has a case as the most skilled player of all time. MJ HIMSELF wouldn't tell you there is a HUGE GAP in their overall skill level. That's where you are messing up in all your posts. It's NOT an uncommon opinion that Kobe is the most skilled player of all time. Just heard Billups the other day on NBA Countdown say Kobe was the most skilled ever. With the three ball becoming much more of a premium in the sport, Kobe's EDGE on MJ there can't be overlooked. WHEN talking about overall skill level.

The gap between him and MJ WASN'T so much about overall skill on both sides of the rock. It was just about MJ being more efficient and the better player. But the way you frame, u make it seem like Kobe WASN'T in MJ's league skill level wise. The gap between MJ GOAT wise is MUCH BIGGER than the gap in terms of their skill levels.

I don't know if Kobe was "capable" of plays such as the one I linked to, but the fact is that he never demonstrated it. Jordan, on the other hand, routinely demonstrated his skills and the ability to string skills together in real-time game situations in ways that Kobe never displayed.

Also, another thing I like to tell folks who are on the "Kobe is the most skilled all-time" train is to go re-watch the ASG "skills challenge" that Kobe participated in sometime in the 2008-2011 era - he did horribly.

Do I think Kobe is ONE of the most skilled players ever? Yes, likely top 4 at a minimum and I can see a case for top 2, though I think Bird still edges him in terms of the sum total of their respective skill-sets. But more skilled than Jordan? No.

[hiphopanonymous]

I will also nominate Cream Biggums

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I90sjHU2Maw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJwnyNrD_ME
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4SSQY2GuM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtkyOQLlgM0

[72-10]

huzzah

my b, meant Isaiah, made a typo

[Manny98]

Kyrie is the most skilled basketball player ever

[bizil]

By position (scoring skillset, passing, handles, defense as a package)

PG- CP3
SG- Kobe
SF- KD
PF- KG
C- Hakeem

[3ball]

MJ









Everyone else

[RRR3]

MJ









Everyone else
MJ isn

[SwayDizzle]

MJ









Everyone else
Not true. Kobe is damn close to MJ skill wise. Not sayin MJ aint da GOAT, but its damn close skill wise.

[Manny98]

MJ









Everyone else
Never shot 40% from 3

Never shot 90% from the line

Inferior handles to the Kyrie and Currys of the world

So no MJ is not the most skilled his game is reliant on athleticism.

If MJ was 6'3 and had Kyries athleticism he wouldn't even be a all star

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[Round Mound]

KG had a mid-range game including playing with his back to the basket when did Barkley have that

Garnett did not have a good back to the basket game at all, yes he did have mid range shot but so did Barkley. Garnett was better defensively but all other skills Chuck was better at.

[3ball]

.
PERCENTAGE OF TEAM POINTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER WAS ON FLOOR


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <--- links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

KOBE 2008....... 31.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 36.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 41.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 30.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
KOBE 2009....... 32.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 35.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 36.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
KOBE 2010....... 32.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 37.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 36.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 37.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



^^^^Look at that 4th quarter gap in load/burden... :eek:



Per 100 Possessions Playoffs


MJ 96-98' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_poss):. 42.5 pts.. 2.5 oreb.. 5.6 dreb.. 5.6 ast.. 3.2 tov.. 118 ortg.. 54.3 ts..
KB 08-10' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html#2008-2010-sum:playoffs_per_poss):.l 38.6 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 115 ortg.. 54.9 ts..


Advanced Playoffs

MJ 96-98' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced):. 27.3 PER.. 9.5 ows.. 4.0 dws.. 0 268 ws/48.. 7.3 obpm... 0.3 dbpm.. 7.3 bpm.. 5.9 VORP.. 102 drtg
KB 08-10' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html#2008-2010-sum:playoffs_advanced):. 23.8 PER.. 4.7 ows.. 1.1 dws.. 0 158 ws/48.. 4.6 obpm.. -0.2 dbpm.. 4.4 bpm.. 2.8 VORP.. 107 drg


Now consider the scoring burden stats from NBA.com above, where MJ's burden was far greater (50% more in Finals 4th quarters), yet his efficiency still trumps Kobe's... :bowdown:

Furthermore, Jordan had less help offensively, yet his teams had the #6 and 16 all-time ORtg's in 96'/97', versus Kobe's #43 and 49 offenses in 09'/10'.. and defensively it's no contest - 08'-10 Kobe wasn't a great defender..

Given this information, there's clearly a tier-like gap between 96-98 MJ and 08-10' Kobe..

Btw, 08-10 wasn't Kobe's prime.... The defensive bpm shows that only 01-03' Kobe approached 97-98' MJ on the defensive end.. (and no version of Kobe could touch 96' MJ defensively, or pre-96).






Kobe is damn close to MJ skill wise.


No, it isn't close - Kobe was closer to 2nd three-peat MJ athletically, but his skill deficit caused his stats to be a tier below (shown above)... :confusedshrug:.. :bowdown: ..
.

[RRR3]

I like how 3ball said Defensive BPM was a trash stat in another thread and then turns around and uses it here.

[3ball]

I like how 3ball said Defensive BPM was a trash stat in another thread and then turns around and uses it here.
They both get the same drebs, so there's no bias

DBPM essentially counts steals, blocks, and drebs - that's why bird has higher dbpm than Pippen (dreb bias)

But with Kobe and MJ, there's no dreb gap, so no dbpm bias.. :confusedshrug: